WEBVTT - #083 Jason Flom with Jeffrey Deskovic - RE-RELEASE 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.800 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.000 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.039 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.600 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.160 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:18.200 I hadn't done anything wrong. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.080 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.680 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.560 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.480 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.159 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:34.520 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.280 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.360 in that moment, unchecked authority. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.320 Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.400 on TV, because it may just be a dirty da 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.280 that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.800 --> 0:00:59.560 This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.600 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm. Today's guest 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.120 as someone fans of the show will recognize, jeff Dskovic. 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.640 Jeffrey Deskovich spent more than a decade in prison for 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.240 the rape and murder of a classmate. It was a 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:25.639 crime he did not commit. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.360 A sixteen year old is arrested for rape and murder. 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:30.960 He's grown by police and given a lie detector test, 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.920 and eventually the police talk him into a false confession. 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.240 Even though DNA did not link him to the crime. 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.240 He served sixteen years in prison before new testing shows 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.000 another man committed that crime. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.480 In January two thousand and six, the Innocence Project convinced 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:48.400 prosecutors to take another look at DNA evidence. New testing 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.760 technology cleared Dskovic of the nineteen eighty nine crime, identifying 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.080 the real killer and releasing Dskovic into a world he 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.200 no longer knew. Today, Deskovic is a free man. 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:02.960 Jeff, welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.280 Thanks for having me, Jason. It's always a pleasure. 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.800 And Jeff was here before with Amanda Knox and jareded 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.320 Adams when we did a very special Wrongful Christmas where 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.480 he spoke so eloquently about what it was like being 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.360 locked up in a maximum security prison on the holidays 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:21.680 when everyone else is out celebrating in the world's going 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.320 on without you. But this time I'm really glad to 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.680 have you here, Jeff, because your story is so important 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.000 and so I want to get right back into that 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:33.680 you grew up in White Plains. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.480 No, I grew up in Peakskill in west Chester County. 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.679 My case happened in White Plains. That's the county court. 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:42.360 People are going to scratch their heads or shake their 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.160 heads when I say this. Right, in your case, DNA 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:51.400 evidence was presented at the trial that proved scientifically, with 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.080 no doubt that you could not have been the perpetrator 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.120 of the beating, rape and murder of the fifteen year 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:03.160 old victim, Angela Correa. There is no way on God's 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.640 green earth that you could have been the perpetrator, and 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.080 yet you were convicted anyway. And that's what makes it 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.720 just I want to shake up the whole justice system 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:15.120 and go, wait, that's not possible. It can't happen. And 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.240 you were basically a child when this happened. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.000 I was. I was sixteen years old when I was arrested, 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:21.960 and by the time the trial happened and I was 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.360 wrongfully convicted, I was seventeen. So yes, I was a child, 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.760 and I had very small awareness of what was going on, 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.560 totally dependent on the lawyer, who was inept. In a 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:35.520 lot of ways, It's fair to say that I was 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.680 particularly vulnerable it's. 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.600 Such a tragic thing that happened to start with. And 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.480 this was a young girl who was in your school. 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.200 Were you in tenth grade at the time. I was, 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.880 so you were in tenth grade. She was in tenth grade. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:47.560 Yeah. 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:49.600 She was in two of my classes as a freshman 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.920 and one as a sophomore. She was an immigrant from Columbia. 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.840 She'd been in the country for about a year and 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.400 a half. She lived a very very sheltered life, as 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.840 I understand, in which she never went outside unless she 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.800 was with her older sister or with her parents. And 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:10.800 this one particular day, she received a assignment in her 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.720 photography class to take some pictures of some foliage. The 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.400 teacher assigned male students with the female students. You're like 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:22.239 a buddy system for you know, safety, And this male 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:26.200 student who was assigned to her played hooky on the assignment. 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.719 And so when Angela went to her house with her sister, 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.280 her sister went to the restroom, and when she came 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.960 back out, Angela decided to venture out on her own 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.400 that one day to take the pictures, and unfortunately, that 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.880 proved to be her last day. 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:45.080 It's unbelievable. 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.400 I mean, it's really an incredible story, right, the one 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:50.680 day this poor little girl decides to you know, be brave, 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:58.719 right right, So she ends up brutally beaten, raped and strangled, right, yes, 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:03.160 And this must have caused pandemonium in the community. 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.360 It absolutely did. There hadn't been a murder and big 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:12.120 skill for about twenty years, and the whole city virtually 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.640 shut down. I mean parents were coming right to the 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.640 high school dropping their kids off and picking them up. 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:22.800 There was repeated town hall meetings, a mayor and police 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:28.239 were attending and giving safety tips, and people were vocalizing concerns. 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.960 And well, yeah, there was a monster on the loose 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.800 exactly right, a real monster there was. And so yeah, 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.160 as a parent, I would certainly be doing the same thing. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.000 I wouldn't let my kid out of my sight until 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.400 this thing was resolved. So this creates, as we know, 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.040 a lot of pressure right on law enforcement. They got 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.520 to get this thing off their desks. Who knows what 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.160 could happen, right, There's going to be articles written, there's 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.520 going to be TV, there's going to be all that stuff. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.920 Right when you have a high profile case, especially involving 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.160 a child in a community where murder hasn't happened in 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:00.440 twenty years. It's a pressure cooker, So how the hell 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.479 did they end up picking on you. I didn't know 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.320 you when you were sixteen, but I can imagine that 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:11.760 you would be an extremely unlikely candidate for a brutal 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:13.240 crime like this one. 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.680 Yeah, I would agree with that so well. When I 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.240 was sixteen, I kind of lived a double life in 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.040 a sense, in the sense that in school I was quiet, 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:25.280 I was to myself. I was a little bit withdrawn 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:29.400 because I wasn't really familiar with those kids and I 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:33.000 didn't quite fit in with them. But after school, in 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.279 the apartment building where I lived at, which coincidentally was 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.000 right across the street from the high school, I was 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:41.560 kind of like the life of the party. So myself 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.000 and one other boy that lived there, I mean, there 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.760 was a big group of kids that lived near complex 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.080 and in the areas around it, and pretty much whatever 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.560 I would suggest would mostly be what we would do. 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.120 I mean, we would swim, we would play basketball, ride bikes, 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.919 play Monopoly, video games, movies. We made up some games. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.480 We made up a game that was like baseball, except 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.440 it was played with a tennis racket and a tennis ball, 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.480 and the ball had to be thrown a certain way, 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.840 and I was a different person there. So the police 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:18.680 story is that in the course of interviewing students from 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.400 the high school, some of them told the police, Hey, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.280 you might want to talk to Jeff because he's quiet 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.200 and to himself. So originally the police looked at the 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:32.840 victim's stepdad, who was married to the victim's mother, but 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.160 at some point he realized that he was a suspect, 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:40.160 and he hired a retired New York City detective to 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.600 investigate the crime, and so that persuaded them to move 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.000 off of him. Then they looked at another youth in 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.600 the high school and they started using interrogative tactics, which 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.080 they would use on me later on. But the difference 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.720 is that he had a stepfather in the home, and 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.320 so the stepfather went down to the police station and 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.120 broke up the interrogation, and they initially wouldn't let him 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:06.760 in the room, but he broke up the interrogation and 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.560 he got his steps on an attorney, and so that 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:11.800 was the end of that. I, on the other hand, 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.960 didn't have a step father in the home, so there 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.520 wasn't anybody to intervene for me. 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:18.880 It was just you and your mother at the. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.280 Time, myself, my mother, and I lived with my grandmother 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.800 and then I had a younger brother. So the police 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.400 story is that some of the kids in the school 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.080 told them that they might want to talk to me, 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.640 and their other theory as to why they focused it 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:37.200 on me, they said that my emotional reaction to the 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.720 victim having been murdered was disproportionate to what my actual 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:43.920 relationship with there was, which was to say there was 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.920 no relationship. I mean, I knew her name, she knew mine. 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.959 We weren't even on a high by basis. So her 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.760 being murdered it kind of struck me because that was 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:55.920 really my first encounter with death. I thought that was 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.600 something that happens to people at the end of life. 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.840 I had a chance to briefly get to know the family. 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.600 I went to the wick and people were invited back 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:08.400 to their house, to the Korea household, to have coffee 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:10.680 and talk to the family, and there was cookies and stuff, 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.720 and so I guess you could say, you might say 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.240 I was kind of a sensitive, sentimental type of person, 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:17.840 and so it kind of touched me. 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:19.200 A little by the way you might say you were 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.400 a normal type of person, right, And it always boggles 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:27.960 my mind how these authority figures suddenly become expert psychiatrists 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.040 or psychologists, and we see it over and over again. 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.760 He acted too sad, he didn't act sad enough, he 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.880 was too upset, not upset enough. He ran into the fire, 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:39.160 he didn't. You know, there's all these cases where that 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.960 becomes a factor. When it is it's ridiculous. Nobody knows 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.360 how anyone is going to react in times of trauma. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:47.200 And I would say, like I said that, your reaction 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.680 sounds to me like a sensitive person who is just 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:56.520 experiencing something in their own community with somebody that's an 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:57.440 innocent young girl. 0:09:57.720 --> 0:09:58.600 Of course you're upset. 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:00.920 Yeah, I agree with you completely, you know, And I 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.040 want to add that this really shook up the whole 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.640 city to the point that free mental health counseling was 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.160 offered to anybody in the city who wanted it. So 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.880 this affected many people emotionally. 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.520 Had you ever been in trouble before, No, never been 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.719 in trouble. So the cops at some point they come 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.920 and pick you up. But your interrogation is really at 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.440 the root of the entire problem, and it is it 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:32.839 is a perfect example of everything that's wrong with interrogation 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.800 techniques in this country even today. 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.360 It is. There was a six week run up to 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.000 that day, so I had an interaction with the police 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.040 from the time they initially intercepted me on my way 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:46.960 to the high school up until the day of the 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.880 Cours false confession, which half the time they would talk 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.600 to me as if I was a suspect, and then 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.560 half the time they would talk to me pretending like 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.280 they needed my help to solve the crime. They would 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.800 say things like, the kids won't talk freely around us, 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.520 but they will around you. Let us know if you 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.240 hear any rumors. They made me the center of attention. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.520 They would ask me opinion questions and then it's exciting, right, yeah, 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.880 congrat It was congratulate made my opinions being correct. My 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.200 fantasy childhood career was actually to be a cop. So 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.760 this unexpected early opportunity to do this quasi police work, 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.280 you know, was part of how they pulled the wool 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.319 over my eyes, along with my age, so that was sixteen. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.000 They used to buy pizza and listen, I grew up 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.360 in a single parent household as well, as we mentioned, 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:38.960 and that directly intersected with a good cop, bad cop routine, 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.600 and then I started looking up to the cop who 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:43.240 was pretending to. 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.360 Be my friend as a father figure. 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.360 As a father figure, yeah exactly. 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.240 I mean again, you were sixteen, so okay, so they're 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.200 sort of sort of spinning this web and seducing you 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.320 and trying to get you to say something that would 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.559 be incriminating. Now we know that's what they were doing, right. 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.280 Yeah, exactly. And so finally at the end, they told 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.520 me that they received some new tip that was in 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.760 the police file and they wanted to share that with me, 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.800 but to do that I would first have to take 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.240 and pass a polygraph. So help us, to help you, 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.800 to help us type of logic was employed. So instead 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.400 of going to the school the next day, I instead 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.640 went to the police station where I thought the polygraph 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.040 was gonna happen, because through the rumor mill of the 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:31.080 city I had heard that other people had been polygraphed 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:36.839 at the police station. But actually they drove me from Peakskill, 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.760 which was in Westchester County. They drove me forty minutes 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.440 away out of county to the town of Brewster, which 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.800 is in Putnam County. So they drove me to Brewster 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:51.160 to this polygraph as former Putnam County Sheriff's investigator Daniel Stevens, 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.480 and he was an officer, but he was dressed as 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:58.240 a civilian, and he never identified himself as a cop, 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:00.680 and he never read me my Miranda warning, so I 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.240 thought that he was a civilian. So he gave me 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.880 this manual to look at about how the polygraph works, 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.280 and it had a lot of really big words in 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.600 it that were beyond my comprehension, but I didn't care 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.120 because I was there to help the police, so who 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.840 cares what the thing says, or so I thought. They 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.000 put me into a small room and the polygraph is. 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.120 Stevens became like a virtual coffee dispenser. I mean, I 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.439 must have drank six or seven cups, and no sooner 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:32.960 would I put the cup down than the cup would 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.560 be halfway filled up. And you know, he's giving me 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.360 another one. And it seems pretty clear in hindsight that 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.840 the purpose of that was to get your nervous, make 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.360 me nerve right, exactly right. So once he finished the 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:49.240 coffee routine, then he straps me into the polygraph machine, 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.280 which was fairly heavy, so you know, now I'm kind 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.840 of immobilized. It's a very small room, and that's when 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.920 he launches into his third degree tactics. So he invaded 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.200 my personal space. He raised his voice at me. He 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.839 kept asking me the same questions over and over again. 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.040 And keep in mind that I'm not used to interacting 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.240 with adult males and the way he's conducting himself, and 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.840 he's kind of a mountain of a man, and I'm sixteen, 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.040 like maybe one hundred and forty pounds, so can wet, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.480 you know. So it's really frightening. So each hour that 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.680 goes by, my fear is increasing in proportion to the time. 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.360 So Stevens kept that up for about six or seven hours. 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.120 Towards the end of the interrogation, that's when he said 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.480 to me, I guess by then he was just frustrated 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.720 by not having been able to get me to confess 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.440 to that point, he said, what do you mean you 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.360 didn't do it? You just told me through the polygraph 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.160 test results that you did. We just want you to 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.240 verbally confirm it. So when he said that to me, 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.280 that really shot my fear through the roof. And at 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.960 that moment, the officer who was I've been pretending to 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.480 be my friend. He came in the room and told 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:05.720 me that the other officers were going to harm me, 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.520 that he was holding them off, but he couldn't do 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.640 so any longer, that I had to help myself. And 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.640 then he added that if I did as he as 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.520 they wanted, that not only would they stop what they 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.240 were doing, but that I could go home afterwards, that 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.440 I was not going to be arrested. Being young, naive, 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.680 frightened sixteen years old in fear of my life because 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.320 the fact that I didn't know where I was, and 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.400 that I knew that nobody else did either, that loomed 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:35.640 very large in my mind. 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:36.520 It's incredible. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.800 I mean, it's total disorientation, right, I mean, yes, I mean, 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:40.720 and it's you. 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:41.880 Know, it's diabolical. 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.440 But if what you want is a false confession, this 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.040 would be the way to do it. 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:47.840 Textbook, this is the way to do it. Yeah. And 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.360 then I was emotionally overwhelmed also, and then there's the 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:55.320 push pull dynamic, you know, there's the possibility of harm. 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.680 But then he's thrown me this false life preserver and 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.000 I took out which he offered. I made up a 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.160 story based on information which they had given me that 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.040 day and in the six weeks run up to that day, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.800 and by the time it was all said and done, 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.240 I had collapsed on the floor, curled up into a 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:18.880 fetal position, crying uncontrollably. Obviously I was arrested. 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.440 Yeah, I mean, the whole thing was a lie. It's 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.560 like a fucking charade, right, And it was easy for them. 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.200 I mean, the miracle is that you didn't confess sooner. Actually, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:32.040 And you know, it's interesting, Jeff, We know that false 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.920 confessions happened typically much later like yours, and you were 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.640 among the most vulnerable people that's ever been put into 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.240 this position, being that you were alone, you had no 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.160 way out, you had no way to get home. You 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.120 were in tenth grade, I mean tenth grade. You don't 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.480 know what the fuck you're doing. When you're in tenth grade. 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:53.120 You're just a child, and you had a very real 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.840 concern that you were going to be beaten up or worse. 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.280 Right, you know, the fact that you were able to. 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.360 Hang on for you know, almost nine hours in this 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.560 situation is a testament to your strength, even in this 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.040 most terrifying situation that you found yourself in. So now 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.359 you're expecting to go home because that's what they told you. Yes, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.600 but they lied again. Yes, and so you signed this 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:18.480 piece of paper. 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.880 No. Let mean there was no sign confession. I never 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.000 signed a confession, and there was no audio or video tap. 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.200 It was just the cops word as to what happened. 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.600 And as a result of that, when we got to court, 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.679 they conveniently left out the threat and the false promise. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:33.800 Wow. 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.400 I mean, it's actually strange, Jef, that they wouldn't have 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:37.960 just put a piece of paper in front of you, 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:39.480 because at this point you would have signed anything. 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:40.960 You would have said that you stole the mona. 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.879 Lisa, Right, Yeah, sure, yeah, of course, I mean whatever 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.639 opinion for a pound. Look, man, I ready decide. I 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.240 wanted to get the hell out of here. Tell you 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.440 what you want to say. Yeah, this is the next 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.040 thing you want me to say. Come on, get me 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:54.440 out of you make good on your end? Yeah you 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.719 want this extra thing? Come on, you got it? Can 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:57.879 you honor your word? Down? 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:02.200 So now you're arrested and the nightmare really begins, right, 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:07.400 because you're as unprepared for this situation as someone can be. Right, 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.320 you have no experience with criminal justice. You're not a 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.480 big guy. You're not a tough guy. You're not emotionally 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.879 developed to a point that you could be in any way, 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.960 you know, steal yourself for what's going on. You're not 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:24.159 educated enough to understand the proceedings. You don't have a 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.840 family that's able to hire, for lack of a better word, 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.439 a dream team to help you, and so arrested in 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:33.840 nineteen ninety and now you're held in jail. 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:35.119 I am a waiting trial. 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.000 I was in jail for like thirty five days, and 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.560 then I got bailed out. I got bailed out. At 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.879 the time, my mother was dating a business person, Jack Ecashan, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.919 who had a carpet store, Acusian Carpets, and he was 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:54.600 willing to bail me out, which he was hammered in 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.800 the newspaper for just the fact of bailing me out, 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.399 and he lost quite a bit of customer as a 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:01.320 result of doing that. 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.240 Well, that's innocent until proven guilty, right. 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:07.200 So they say not so much. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:11.360 So much so even he's tard by this, yes, reputation 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:12.919 that you have. And now you go home. You're not 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.680 in school anymore, right, You've been kicked out of schools. 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:17.680 So yeah, they would not allow me to go back 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.480 to school until the case was resolved. And you know, 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:22.719 I naively thought, you know, when I got bailed at, 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.080 I was going to go back to my life. But 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.760 there was no going back to it ever. 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:29.840 So what did you do? Just stay in the house. 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.560 I stayed in the house. Yeah, I mean I was 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:34.919 afraid to go out, to be frank with you, that 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.000 was a pariah. And the parents of my former friends 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.439 would not allow them to play with me, of course, 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.199 and even if they had, I doubt very many of 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.639 them would have wanted to anyway, because they thought I 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.480 was guilty, because that's what the headlines and everything else 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.919 was saying. And I couldn't go to school, I couldn't 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.919 do anything. So yeah, I just I stayed in my house. 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.680 But that was only for a few weeks. Though I 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.240 tried to kill myself. I felt my life was over. 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.240 And I took an entire bottle of extra strength Title 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.320 and all that had not been used, and I took 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:09.560 every last pill and I went to sleep, and I 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.040 intended to never wake up again. 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.560 Wow, take them inte to think about that. I didn't 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:15.560 know that part of your story. 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.439 And Jeff and I've spent a lot of time together 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:21.920 but they've never shared those details with me. 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:26.560 It's really hard, hard to deal with. 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.600 My point of mentioning that though, is that that resulted 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.320 in my being involuntarily committed into a mental hospital for 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:35.160 six months. 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.400 So now the worst is still to come. But you've 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:44.320 now gone through this crazy rapid decline from a happy, 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.600 go lucky, goofy kid, not a care in the world 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.920