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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And the Biden administration is canceling student

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Speaker 1: loans for another one hundred and sixty thousand borrowers. Representative

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Speaker 1: Jim Himes stops by to talk about the Speaker of

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Speaker 1: the House, Mike Johnson's chaotic rule. Then we'll talk to

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Speaker 1: John Gantz about his new book When the Clock Broke,

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Speaker 1: Convent Conspiracists, and how America cracked.

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Speaker 2: Up in the early nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 1: But first we have Washington Post columnist Dana Melbank. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Best Politics, my friend, my buddy, one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite writers, the one.

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Speaker 2: The only Washington Post Dana Milbank.

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Speaker 3: Oh, Molly, thank you for that build up, but it'll

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Speaker 3: only be disappointing from here on.

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Speaker 2: Out' that's the hope. No, not the hope.

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to hear you because I am a

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Speaker 1: fan of yours, but I so like I'm not as

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Speaker 1: old as you are, obviously.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for that. Okay, that's you've taken back some

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Speaker 3: of the good stuff from the introduction now.

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Speaker 1: But you remember when politics was I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say sane, because that was never sane, but was a

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Speaker 1: little less insane. And I want you to talk about

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Speaker 1: sort of what this feels.

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Speaker 2: Like to you.

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Speaker 1: You are in the Beltway, the Acela Corridor, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to me, who was at the end of.

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Speaker 3: The great You're in the heartland, right in the heartland,

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Speaker 3: exactly discuss Well, look, I came to Washington in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety five when you were in preschool.

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Speaker 2: That's right, bab and or rehab.

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Speaker 3: And I thought that something had gone terribly wrong that

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Speaker 3: you know, it was in the Oklahoma City bombing and

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Speaker 3: Gingrich is a Republican revolution just taken over. And I

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Speaker 3: was like, wow, things are really going to hell here now.

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Speaker 3: Of course, looking back, those are the good old days,

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Speaker 3: you know, salad days was still function you know, I mean, yeah, yes,

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Speaker 3: it was the beginning of bad stuff, but you know,

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Speaker 3: come on, Clinton, then Gangritch could negotiate and strike some

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Speaker 3: good deals and we still had a functioning government. They

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Speaker 3: were sort of you know, kind of shadows, you know,

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Speaker 3: suggesting what could come, but it still worked. And we've

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Speaker 3: just it's just been one election cycle after note of

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Speaker 3: deterioration with you know, with a couple of moments of

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Speaker 3: reprieves in there. But you know, this was my whole

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Speaker 3: last book, The Destructions, was about this. You know this.

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Speaker 3: It was basically been a twenty five year crack up.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, we're polarized and all that stuff, but really

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Speaker 3: it has been, you know, half of our political system

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Speaker 3: has gone bonkers, and unfortunately that at the moments at

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Speaker 3: these seems to be the ascended part of our political system.

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Speaker 2: So according to Paul's.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to watch it as a spectator to

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Speaker 3: report back to the reality based community on what I'm seeing.

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Speaker 3: But man, it's it's a grind these days.

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Speaker 1: So Republicans have been all in on this idea that

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Speaker 1: there's something wrong with Joe Biden, and they have done

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Speaker 1: this since Joe Biden came back on the scene run

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Speaker 1: for president against their man. Those of us who have

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Speaker 1: a memory that is longer than that of a goldfish,

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Speaker 1: remember that in twenty fifteen, we were told that Hillary's health.

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Speaker 1: We were told by David Pecker, the National Enquirer, who

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Speaker 1: recently featured prominently in Donald Trump's criminal case, that Hillary's

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Speaker 1: health was the biggest issue on the agenda that she had.

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Speaker 1: You'll remember that she had terrible things wrong with her

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Speaker 1: and that she was quite sick. So this is like

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Speaker 1: something that Trump world likes to do. Can you make

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Speaker 1: it make sense?

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Speaker 3: Well? Can I make anything make sense? I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's trying so many different things at the same time.

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Speaker 3: I mean, right now, not only are we believing that

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Speaker 3: Biden is demented, but he is simultaneously hatching some secret

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Speaker 3: plan to assassinate the president by sending the FBI after

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Speaker 3: him with orders to kill. Never mind that they searched

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Speaker 3: his own house with the same orders to kill.

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Speaker 2: Right, and also there was no one home when they came, right.

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Speaker 3: I think it's always about keeping somebody off balance. But

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Speaker 3: you know, he can't make up his mind whether it's

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Speaker 3: in a sleepy Biden or crooked Biden. So here's where

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Speaker 3: the problem comes in, and that is I think they've

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Speaker 3: done quite a good job of convincing people that Biden

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Speaker 3: isn't all there. Even a lot of Biden voters think.

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Speaker 2: That, and a lot of polls show that, right.

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Speaker 3: It shows that that's what people think. So they've been

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Speaker 3: very successful at that, and I could kind of see it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look, the guy's got a stutter. He's definitely

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Speaker 3: moving more slowly than he did a few years ago.

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Speaker 3: But of course I was covering this guy back in

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Speaker 3: the nineties and he sounded the same way back then.

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Speaker 3: That's just who he is, so it's easy to do

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Speaker 3: it to him. It sort of lends itself to that.

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Speaker 3: But here's where they've got a problem. They've done such

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Speaker 3: a good job of convincing people that he's not able

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Speaker 3: to string two sentences together, as Trump said that while

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Speaker 3: he gives the State of the Union does and they say, wow,

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Speaker 3: this guy is actually sentience. And then what happens. They'll

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Speaker 3: have a debate next month, and it turns out if

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Speaker 3: he cans just sentence together, you know, I don't know

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Speaker 3: if he'll be brilliant. But the bar has been set

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Speaker 3: so low that now we Jesse, I mean, he doesn't

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Speaker 3: even have to step over it to get to clear

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Speaker 3: that bar. So now they've got to come up with

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Speaker 3: something else.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So it's interesting when we talk about this because

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Speaker 1: I have this theory which Jesse and I actually fight about,

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Speaker 1: which is that Joe Biden in the nineties, that this

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden is actually better because he knows that he

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Speaker 1: sometimes says too much, and so he's a little more careful,

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Speaker 1: whereas Joe Biden the nineties would just say crazy staff

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Speaker 1: discuss right.

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Speaker 3: I think people will say this is like the super managed,

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Speaker 3: scripted Joe Biden. But to me, this is the discipline

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: I remember watching confirmation hearings for the Supreme Court and

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Speaker 3: he'd go on for like fifteen minutes and then he'd say,

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Speaker 3: and now I want to get to the regular part

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Speaker 3: of my remarks, you know, right, which ed is blathering.

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Speaker 3: The guy just wouldn't he wouldn't shut up, and you

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Speaker 3: know he was he was always putting his foot in

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Speaker 3: his mouth and stepping in it. And you know he

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Speaker 3: always said ridiculous things that came out that came out poorly.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, so this is I don't know whether he's

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Speaker 3: allowing himself to be managed so much as he's recognizing

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Speaker 3: that less is more. But you know, anything will fit

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Speaker 3: the narrative to say, Okay, that means he must have

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Speaker 3: dementia if he's not giving a long rambling speeches. So

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Speaker 3: what you know? So what do you do now that

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Speaker 3: he was his sentences together and apparently the idea is

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Speaker 3: going to be to say that he's on drugs Trump,

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Speaker 3: you know, said after the saying he's jacked up. You know,

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Speaker 3: he's high as a kite.

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Speaker 2: By the way, Trump said that about Hillary too.

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Speaker 3: Because he did the same thing to Hillary. There's assessing

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Speaker 3: she was demented. Then what do you do when they're

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Speaker 3: not demented. He's suggesting some kind of a stimulant or something.

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Speaker 3: But I was just delighted that we heard over the

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Speaker 3: weekend from Byron Donald's I'm going.

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Speaker 2: To read the first line because I love you. Rep.

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Speaker 1: Byron Donald's medical education can consist of a bachelor's degree

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Speaker 1: in finance and marketing from Florida State University.

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Speaker 3: Discuss, Right, but he played a doctor on television.

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Speaker 2: It's not even news, it's Fox Business.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, although Maria Bartiromo, I think her Sunday Futures

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Speaker 3: maybe is on regular Fox News. I mean, it's all

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Speaker 3: the same to me. Right, So he's on with Maria Bartiromo. So, okay,

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Speaker 3: dude's a grain of salt to start with there. But

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Speaker 3: so he takes it another step further and he says

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Speaker 3: Biden is getting some sort of an injection. He thinks,

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Speaker 3: you know, like people are saying that makes him coherent.

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Speaker 3: So it makes it totally.

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Speaker 2: Can I get that inco right?

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Speaker 3: An incoherent person takes this injection and is suddenly coherent,

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Speaker 3: How can I get me some Yeah, it sounds amazing exactly,

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Speaker 3: So you know that's what I said. Republicans have discovered

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Speaker 3: this secret elixir that can take somebody who's totally demented

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Speaker 3: and make them just totally at the top of their game.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean, can you imagine what a blockbuster

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Speaker 3: this one?

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Speaker 2: I want it. It's a zepic for brains.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that they talk about here Byron

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Speaker 1: Donald's this is part of the veep steaks, right Byron

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Speaker 1: Donalds thinks he's going to be Donald Trump's number two, right.

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Speaker 3: Right, And Tim Scott has gone along with the same thing,

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Speaker 3: backing up Trump saying yeah, yeah, yeah, of course it

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Speaker 3: sounds like Biden's on drugs. So that's sort of the

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Speaker 3: standard litmus test. You have to get up and lie

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Speaker 3: about Biden being on drugs, and you have.

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Speaker 2: To lie about the twenty twenty election.

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Speaker 1: You've seen veepstakes before, never this sleazy and Mike Pens

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Speaker 1: might have some thoughts on whether or not this is

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Speaker 1: a good job, but predict the future for me, how

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Speaker 1: do you think this is going to play out?

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Speaker 2: No pressure, and if you're wrong, we're going.

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Speaker 3: To clip this right. No, no, you're going to clip

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Speaker 3: this and hold me to it. I don't think I've

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Speaker 3: ever seen a public I mean, it's public auditioning, you know,

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Speaker 3: with some Republican lawmaker up in Congress that this is

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Speaker 3: Apprentice twenty twenty four. You know, they're all out there,

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Speaker 3: you know, and of course they're looking ridiculous and it's demeaning,

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Speaker 3: but big surprise. I mean, that is the moment that

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Speaker 3: we live in. What will the outcome be? If that's

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Speaker 3: the question, is asking to divine what's in Donald Trump's

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Speaker 3: So I'm not much well or he doesn't know from

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Speaker 3: it any given moment to moment what it's going to be.

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Speaker 3: So you know, are there are there picks that could

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Speaker 3: reassure people? Well, I suppose, so I don't think any

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Speaker 3: of those sorts of folks are being seriously considered, though,

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Speaker 3: you know, does he try to pick off more Latino

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Speaker 3: voters with Marco Rubio or Black voters with doctor Byron

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Speaker 3: Donalds for example, Yeah, you know, maybe that works to

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Speaker 3: some extent, But you know, I don't think this election

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Speaker 3: is going to be decided by whoever it is he picks,

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Speaker 3: or Kamala Harris or that matter. I suppose the bar

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Speaker 3: needs to be somebody who's marginally competent. But you're saying

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Speaker 3: competent enough to succeed Donald Trump. So you know, if

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Speaker 3: you're voting for Donald Trump in the first place, you're

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Speaker 3: not so worried that the guy who might replace him

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Speaker 3: is competent. So it's competence is not your highest standard.

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Speaker 1: And you know Trump has said as much. Trump said,

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Speaker 1: nobody cares about the vice president. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: be a historian here, but talk to me about pretty

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Speaker 1: recent elections and sort of how so different what Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump is doing right now when it comes to vice

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Speaker 1: presidential shopping.

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Speaker 3: This is well, you know again, it's the visibility of it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, traditionally it was you know, big mystery, ideally

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Speaker 3: to be revealed at or around the convention. But the

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Speaker 3: conventions don't really matter anymore.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: The idea was, you know, it was gonna you know,

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Speaker 3: show some sort of a unification in time for the

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Speaker 3: full general election season. But it's not a full general

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Speaker 3: election season. We've been in a general election season right

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Speaker 3: for a year or more now. So you know, it's

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Speaker 3: sort of a pet peeve of mine. And you know,

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Speaker 3: people say, well, based on what happened with Kennedy in

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixty or even what happened with Barack Obama in

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Speaker 3: twenty twelve, it's irrelevant. We're not in that world anymore.

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Speaker 3: So nothing is going according to those anymore. So I

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Speaker 3: would say that Trump is correct that people are not

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Speaker 3: going to be excited one way or the other about

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Speaker 3: the vice presidential pien. And I mean Democrats are not

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Speaker 3: overwhelmingly excited by either the top or the or the

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Speaker 3: bottet the of the ticket that they're faced with. But

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Speaker 3: that's where we are.

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Speaker 1: Some of what we're seeing right now is this kind

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Speaker 1: of malaise, I think, and some of it is. There's

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Speaker 1: also I think I'm certainly people are coming over to

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Speaker 1: me an abject panic.

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Speaker 2: About these polls.

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Speaker 1: You are a veteran, I mean this in a nice way,

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Speaker 1: a very young veteran. But tell us what you sort

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Speaker 1: of what you think of as like the May before

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Speaker 1: an election, Like what should people be doing in the

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Speaker 1: may before an election?

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Speaker 3: I think the sort of the hand ringing or the

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Speaker 3: panicking is sort of a useless emotion so I tell

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Speaker 3: people who are worried about that, We'll go out and

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Speaker 3: do something. Volunteer, give your money, be ready to knock

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Speaker 3: on doors, and do whatever else it takes. You know,

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Speaker 3: what the Biden campaign is doing while everybody else is

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Speaker 3: freting about the latest poll is building a pretty massive

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Speaker 3: campaign infrastructure. So I mean you can fault them for

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Speaker 3: you know, being you know, not doing enough about this

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Speaker 3: message or that message. I don't think that's particularly fair.

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Speaker 3: I don't think they control what the message is going

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Speaker 3: to be. I think they have very limited control over that.

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Speaker 3: But what they do have control over is the infrastructure

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Speaker 3: in investing the time and the money in that. And

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Speaker 3: that's what the Republicans aren't doing. As Trump sits in

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Speaker 3: his trial in New York, and you know, he's decimated

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Speaker 3: the RNC to try to, you know, turn it into

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Speaker 3: a vanity organization. So you know, look, I don't think

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Speaker 3: anything has changed. It's going to you know, it's going

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Speaker 3: to be a very close election. It looks like I'm

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Speaker 3: married to a Democratic pollster, and she does spends a

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Speaker 3: lot of time talking people off the ledge, you know,

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Speaker 3: saying that whatever happens in the election, you know, a

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Speaker 3: lot of the polling doesn't make sense. Biden's not going

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Speaker 3: to lose women, He's not going to lose young voters,

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Speaker 3: not going to lose suspenics. You know, the changes are

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Speaker 3: happening at the margin.

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Speaker 1: If these polls are right, it'll be the greatest racial

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Speaker 1: realignment in the voting rights actually right.

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Speaker 3: And it's probably not that. There probably are ongoing shifts

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Speaker 3: that have been occurring for years, and that will probably

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Speaker 3: continue to happen. So, you know, I think people oughtn't panic,

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Speaker 3: but people ought to do something about it. I'm really

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Speaker 3: discouraged by the lack of engagement and enthusiasm. Might you know.

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Speaker 3: I've got a column coming out on people just seem

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Speaker 3: to be numb even to all this you know what

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Speaker 3: is blatantly fascist rhetoric. It's almost like, okay, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we know that, but you.

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Speaker 2: Know, the fascism is baked.

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Speaker 3: In, right, the fascism is baked in Oh but Biden's old, right,

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it's very discouraging. I expect there will be

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Speaker 3: more attention paid to that, because, look, Trump can't help himself.

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Speaker 3: He or his campaign needed to get a unified Reich

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Speaker 3: into into that video, Belie. They need to suggest that

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Speaker 3: Biden is, you know, coming after them to kill them.

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Speaker 3: He needs to go after the judge's ethnicity and suggesting

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Speaker 3: that because he was born in he can't be fair,

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Speaker 3: he can't help himself. He's going to keep doing that,

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Speaker 3: and I think attention will focus on that. I'm doing

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Speaker 3: my best to focus attention on that. That's what people

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Speaker 3: are going to have in mind when they.

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Speaker 1: Decide, Congress you live in the swamp, no offense or anything.

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Speaker 1: Congress is about to go on vacation, because why wouldn't they,

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Speaker 1: But first they have a few more weeks of whatever

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Speaker 1: the farm bell trying to get the leader of Israel here,

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Speaker 1: pandering to whatever they can do to help Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: The Senate is going to try to pass this very

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Speaker 1: restrictive immigration bill. I'm actually heartened to see Schumer trying

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Speaker 1: to play the right on their game. But just talk

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Speaker 1: to me about what's happening in both those hallowed halls.

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Speaker 3: By and large, the must do stuff is done, not

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Speaker 3: easily done the time, but you know, they sort of

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Speaker 3: got there. It looks, you know, for the moment, thanks

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Speaker 3: to large part of the Democrats, Johnson will have his

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Speaker 3: job for now. So you know, we're sort of in

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Speaker 3: we'd be sort of in the early and the silly

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Speaker 3: season of you know, messaging bills, and the House Republicans

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Speaker 3: are just keep coming up with ways to split the

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Speaker 3: Democrats on Israel generally, or just to make them take

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Speaker 3: hard votes. And I think Schumer's now trying to do

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Speaker 3: the same sort of thing, you know, force Republicans to

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Speaker 3: take hard votes in the Senate, and maybe that'll help

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Speaker 3: at the margin, you know, people to cut ads. But

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Speaker 3: I don't think anybody's going to be focusing on this,

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Speaker 3: although the truth is, I could say that about absolutely anything. Now.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's been NonStop coverage of Trump's trial for

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Speaker 3: a month and virtually nobody's paying any attention to it.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, I agreed, Well, some people are paying attention.

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Speaker 1: And again, we never know what we'll cut through the noise.

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Speaker 1: We never know if the stormy Daniel's testimony gets through

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Speaker 1: the noise.

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Speaker 2: We never know what will break through to the voters.

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Speaker 3: We never know, except there's just no evidence, Like nobody's

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Speaker 3: talking about it. You're just not hearing this. You're certainly

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Speaker 3: not not seeing in the polls that Americans aren't paying attention.

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Speaker 3: You're not hearing about it in focus groups or anything else.

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Speaker 3: It certainly registers with some people, but those tend to

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Speaker 3: be people we're paying to start with it and already

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Speaker 3: had their minds made up, you know. I mean that

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Speaker 3: was particularly with the Stormy Daniels trial. That was the

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Speaker 3: Biden campaigns thinking they have not been engaging and making

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Speaker 3: a huge deal as this throwaway lines like I hear

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Speaker 3: your free on Wednesdays. By and large sort of the

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Speaker 3: assumption is that it's not something that's people going to

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Speaker 3: be focusing on.

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Speaker 2: Dana Milbank, thank you.

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Speaker 3: It's a pleasure as always. Thanks for calling this veteran

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Speaker 3: in the swamp.

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Speaker 1: Spring is here and I bet you are trying to

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Speaker 1: look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all

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Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store

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Speaker 2: Get t shirts, hoodies.

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Speaker 1: Hats, and topa to grab some head to fastpolitics dot com.

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Speaker 1: Representative Jim Hins represents Connecticut's fourth district. Welcome back, too

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Speaker 1: Fast Politics, one of my favorite congress people.

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Speaker 4: Jim Hines, Hi, Mollie, thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about beekeeping note just kidding.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about first of all,

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Speaker 1: it strikes me that Speaker my Johnson only has his

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Speaker 1: job today because of the kindness of Democrats.

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Speaker 5: Well, first of all, as a factual matter, that's absolutely right.

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Speaker 5: I mean, if Marjorie Taylor Green had had her way,

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Speaker 5: we would be into week two or three, whatever it

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Speaker 5: is right now, of ballad after ballad after ballad of

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Speaker 5: the Republican Conference unable to select a speaker. And we

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Speaker 5: know that because we saw that movie once before when

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Speaker 5: they booted Kevin McCarthy.

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Speaker 4: And it wasn't out of the kindness.

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Speaker 5: Now, look, I have some respect Sneaker Johnson, which was

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Speaker 5: sadly eroded by his performance in front of the New

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Speaker 5: York Court the other day. But it wasn't so much

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Speaker 5: out of the kindness of our hearts as that we

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Speaker 5: really wanted to show the American people that it given

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Speaker 5: an opportunity to sort of dance and make political hay

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Speaker 5: and partisan you know, statements about dysfunction on the Republican side,

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Speaker 5: we chose instead to keep the ship upright and to

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Speaker 5: try to make some progress around you know, things like

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Speaker 5: infrastructure and the Federal Aviation Administration, all the boring stuff

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Speaker 5: of governing. And I think, you know, people need to

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Speaker 5: see that, because there's not a chance in the world,

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Speaker 5: Molly that had the shoe been on the other foot,

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Speaker 5: that the Republicans would have stepped into in the in

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Speaker 5: the service of stopping chaos.

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Speaker 2: So let's go further with that.

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Speaker 1: Now that Mike Johnson has kept his job for now,

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Speaker 1: he has sort of a lot of stuff he's pushing

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Speaker 1: to vote on that would really serve Donald Trump. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it strikes me that he really does serve at the

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Speaker 1: pleasure of Donald Trump. And no time was this more

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Speaker 1: apparent than last week when he went to Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: criminal trial.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and the hard thing about that, you know, if

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Speaker 5: you have my job, you long ago have acknowledged the

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Speaker 5: very sad fact that the Republican Party is now a

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Speaker 5: cult of personality, almost without exception to Donald J.

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Speaker 3: Trump.

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Speaker 4: You know, I had accumulated a little bit of.

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Speaker 5: Respect for the Speaker because I saw him sort of

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Speaker 5: ac civily and because he said, we're going to do

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Speaker 5: a budget without a shutdown, We're going to pass the

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Speaker 5: Ukraine eate and that's exactly what happened. And you know,

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Speaker 5: he took some risks to get that done. And then

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Speaker 5: I watch him standing in front of the trial of

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Speaker 5: a convicted you know, sexual assaulter. The guy that we

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Speaker 5: all know Donald Trump is. And here's this, you know,

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Speaker 5: self professed man who is governed by the principles of

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Speaker 5: the Bible, not just standing up for Donald Trump but

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Speaker 5: telling lies about Donald Trump. And so you know, again,

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Speaker 5: it's been quite a roller coaster with respect to my

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Speaker 5: own views of Speaker Johnson.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it must be.

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Speaker 1: And I know he's sort of liked in a way

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Speaker 1: because he has not had a history of lying to

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Speaker 1: Democrats quite the same way that Kevin McCarthy did. But

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Speaker 1: you guys have some real stuff you need to do

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Speaker 1: right now. The farm bell, and that's a big bill.

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Speaker 1: And then also there's other stuff he wants to bring

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Speaker 1: net Yahoo. Talk to us about the farm bell, and

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Speaker 1: then also talk to us about this net Yahoo visit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, look, I mean exactly right on the farm bill.

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Speaker 4: And remember the farm bill.

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Speaker 5: People here farm bill and they think it's you know,

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Speaker 5: acres of corn out in Nebraska. The farm bill is

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Speaker 5: also the funding source for all of our food programs

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Speaker 5: for lower income Americans who otherwise would be malnourished. So

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Speaker 5: it's not just farms right, and traditionally that was an

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Speaker 5: easy bill to pass because Krats got all that they

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Speaker 5: wanted in terms of, you know, nutritional security, and the

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Speaker 5: Republicans who represented more rural areas got all the crop

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Speaker 5: insurance and all that stuff. You know, it's yet another

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Speaker 5: casualty of a group of people who are more interested

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Speaker 5: in social media and performative acts than actually governing the country.

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Speaker 5: And so that's why we're gonna have a problem with

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Speaker 5: the farm bill. But yeah, we've got real business to do.

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Speaker 5: And that's again why we save Speaker Johnson, not the

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Speaker 5: kindness of our hearts, but because we've got stuff to

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Speaker 5: do now. Sadly, Speaker Johnson is going to take advantage

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Speaker 5: of his speakership that we preserved to do a lot

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Speaker 5: of messaging nonsense, some of which will be relatively benign

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Speaker 5: or neutral.

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Speaker 4: You know Natanyahu, right, you asked about him. Here's a

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Speaker 4: guy who is enormously controversial in his own country. The

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Speaker 4: last time game here, he meddled in our politics by

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Speaker 4: telling the Congress that we shouldn't pass the Iran nuclear

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Speaker 4: bill that the President was pushing. And so at this

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Speaker 4: moment in time, when Nittanyahu needs to be one hundred

435
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 4: and fifty percent focused on getting the hostages out of Gaza.

436
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 4: He's going to come to a bunch of partisan stuff

437
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 4: in DC. I mean, it almost turns my stomach to

438
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 4: think about it.

439
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 1: It's so interesting to me because Nanyahu has some real

440
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 1: domestic problems. I mean, you have Israeli's protesting, you have

441
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 1: parents of the hostages begging him to take this seriously.

442
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: You have really humanitarian disaster growing in Gaza. He wants

443
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: to come to America to help Donald Trump.

444
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: I mean he's so bartisan.

445
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, I wish it were so apparent that Netanyahu is

446
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 5: first and foremost about preserving himself in power. He is

447
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 5: only Prime Minister in virtue of two really awful people.

448
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 5: I'm referring to Smotrech and Ben Gevie, right, you know,

449
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 5: one of whom was kicked out of the IDEF. Are

450
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 5: not permitted to be in the IDEF because they were

451
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 5: so extreme. These guys are, you know, one hundred percent

452
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 5: in support of the settlers violating every international law in

453
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 5: the West Bank. I mean, these guys are trim and

454
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 5: by the way, you know, it's uncomfortable for me to

455
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 5: say that, but that's what most Israelis believe as well.

456
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I had Bernie Sanders on this podcast. You know,

457
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: I'm Jewish, he's Jewish, and he's Jewish of that age

458
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: where they, you know, were born during the Holocaust, so

459
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: they have real firsthand knowledge about what it's like to

460
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: be murdered for being a Jew, even though he lived

461
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: in the States his whole life. And so even he

462
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: and I, who both know the importance of Israel as

463
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: a state and as a place for us to be

464
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: safe as Jews, also know that Netan Yahoo is not Israel.

465
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 4: That's exactly right. And you know, it's funny.

466
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 5: It's a quirk of politics that, you know, having the

467
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 5: opinion that the majority of Israelis have.

468
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 4: Which is Prime Minister. And look, I'm careful about this.

469
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 4: I know Chuck Schumer decided to do something different.

470
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 5: I'm not in the business of telling other democracies how

471
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 5: they should select their leaders. But my point was that,

472
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 5: you know, having an opinion which is, let's just say,

473
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 5: a little clouded about Prime Minister Netdan Yahu, which is,

474
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 5: by the way, the opinion that most Israeli shares. You know,

475
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 5: here you get raised eyebrows. And I mean, I'll tell

476
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 5: you this. As you know, I work a lot in

477
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 5: the national security space, and as I look at it,

478
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 5: you know, it's hard for me to think of somebody

479
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 5: who has more damaged Israel's long term national security than

480
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 5: Netan Yahoo. And let's forget about the massive failure that

481
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 5: was October seventh. I mean, you know, a failure far

482
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 5: exceeding what we failed on on nine to eleven, two

483
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 5: thousand and one. Go back to the JCPOA which he

484
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 5: worked and continued to work. This is the Iran nuclear deal.

485
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 5: Eliminate and guess what, he got his way because of

486
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 5: Donald Trump. And now you know what, it wouldn't shock me,

487
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 5: Molly if we woke up at some point in the

488
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 5: next year to discover that the Iranians were on the

489
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 5: verge of testing a nuclear device. And I would tell

490
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 5: you that would not have happened were the Iran Nuclear

491
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 5: Deal in place. You know, one other point, it has

492
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 5: nothing to do with oct well, it has something to

493
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 5: do with October sevens.

494
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 4: But here's a guy who has quietly and now explicitly

495
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 4: dedicated himself to the destruction of the two state solution.

496
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 4: You know, and I'm pretty humble about the way the

497
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 4: decisions that other democracies make. But I've always asked a question,

498
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 4: if not a two state solution, then what And there

499
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 4: is no answer to that question.

500
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 5: And so what you do when you take the two

501
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 5: state solution off the table, as the Prime Minister has done,

502
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 5: you crush the hopes and aspirations of millions of Palestinians.

503
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 4: And you know what, millions of people with crushed hopes

504
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 4: and aspirations is a pretty volatile thing.

505
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I also think like the you know,

506
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: the whole idea that you can be a democracy that

507
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: deprives others is of their like liberty to live and

508
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: survive is dicey.

509
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 2: Let's talk about national security.

510
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 1: This is the thing that I'm obsessed with and irritated

511
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: with but also a little hopeful for. So this TikTok

512
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 1: ban is a big deal, and it really shows that

513
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: Congress can regulate technology if it wants to. So make

514
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: it make sense how TikTok gets regulated and Facebook is

515
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: able to spread lies and create fake news and force

516
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: to sale TikTok makes sense?

517
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 2: Get it? But why can't this happen in other technology companies?

518
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: Yeah?

519
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, full disclosure, I voted against the forced TikTok.

520
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 5: Why I did it for the same and remember, I'm

521
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 5: a national security guy. Right in the ads is I

522
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 5: was not going to be complicit in the United States

523
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 5: of America for the first time telling its citizenry people

524
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 5: who we trust to make the decisions.

525
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 4: Of who to lack.

526
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 5: I was not going to be party to the government

527
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 5: of the United States saying I'm sorry, you can't watch

528
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 5: this media. That is completely inconsistent in my view, with

529
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 5: the First Amendment, which, by the way, is what the

530
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 5: Montana courts ruled when Montana tried to block TikTok. I

531
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 5: don't like going that route without some limiting principle.

532
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 4: What's next?

533
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 5: Are we going to get mad at the French because

534
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 5: they didn't let us overfly whatever in the Iraq War, whatever?

535
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 5: And we're not going to let Americans read Lamond That

536
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 5: is not who we are. By the way, I have

537
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 5: as specific an understanding as anybody about what Chinese capability are.

538
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: To get information. And this leads to your second question,

539
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 4: which is, guess what the information that we worry that

540
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 4: the Chinese might get from byte Dance they can buy

541
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 4: on the open market today, right, You can buy anything,

542
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,479
Speaker 4: including your current location. Why because and here's here's what

543
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 4: I feel really strongly about. Number one, supporting the First Amendments.

544
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 5: So no, molly, the federal government is not going to

545
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 5: be in the business of identifying misinformation, disinformation and information.

546
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 5: We just can't get into that. But number two, for

547
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 5: God's sakes, we've got to pass a federal privacy law.

548
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 4: Right.

549
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 5: Europe has done it with something called GDPR, California has

550
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 5: done it with CCPA. The federal government has yet to

551
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 5: work out the basic question of who owns what data

552
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:24,959
Speaker 5: Until we do that, and we should have done it

553
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 5: five years ago. We're putting you know, it's not even

554
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 5: the cart before the horse, right, we're just being clown

555
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 5: like and all this other stuff.

556
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: Again, the First Amendment. I'm not totally understanding how tech

557
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: company is in the First Amendment. Right, you can say

558
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: whatever you want, But should tech companies, I mean, shouldn't

559
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: they be responsible for the things that happen on their platforms?

560
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 5: Well, it's interesting to say that, and you're right. Look,

561
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 5: it's not directly a First Amendment issue as that pertains

562
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 5: to social media. Look, Facebook can choose to censor. What

563
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 5: can happen in this country is that the government can't censor,

564
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 5: and people get all confused and use this for their

565
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 5: political advantage. The government is prohibited by the First Amendment

566
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 5: from censoring anything, right, exceptions. On the end, Facebook and

567
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 5: Twitter consents or whatever the hell they want, in the

568
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 5: same way that at your table or at Columbia University,

569
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 5: decisions can be made about what you can't and can't

570
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 5: say in private contexts. Right, So it's not so much

571
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 5: a First Amendment issue. And look, I think that Facebook

572
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 5: and god knows, Twitter or x or whatever or el

573
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 5: Zamusk is calling it now, should do a much better job,

574
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 5: you know, keeping truly awful stuff off.

575
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 4: And that's their prerogative.

576
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,239
Speaker 1: But it's their prerogative because Congress doesn't regulate. I mean,

577
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: if Congress said tomorrow, you're responsible for everything that goes

578
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: on your platform, just like NBC is responsible for everything

579
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: that goes on its platform. I mean, imagine a world

580
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: where NBC says, you know, we're not going to regulate

581
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: First Amendment. I mean, I'm just saying, like tech companies

582
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: have found themselves in this situation because Congress has not

583
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: ever regulated them. So they until somebody sues them into

584
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: the ground, or until they have consequences. They have much

585
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: lower standards and than newspapers and cable networks, and I

586
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: mean they have their ow they can basically do whatever

587
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: they want, right.

588
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 5: I think the interesting little crack in the door here

589
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 5: is on the issue of liability. So in other words,

590
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 5: Facebook puts up some white nationalists, or allows to be

591
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 5: put up I should say, some white nationalists. Sort of

592
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 5: incitement videos not impossible, probably more likely to happen on Twitter,

593
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 5: by the way, and somebody gets radicalized and goes out

594
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 5: and kills a bunch of people in the name of

595
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 5: white nationalism. I like the idea that Twitter can be

596
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 5: held liable for that. Now, by the way, that's that's

597
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 5: a little bit inconsistent with current law undersection blah blah blah.

598
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: But I think.

599
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 4: There is really some there's an opening to the door

600
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 4: with respect to liability for bad outcomes. Where are you

601
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 4: start a little nervous?

602
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 5: So what about you know, on Facebook, you don't want

603
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 5: the government coming in and saying, you know what, you

604
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 5: can't put up Paul Gosar's stuff. So our member of Congress,

605
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 5: ex right winger, you know, I'm sure has attended some

606
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 5: rallies that I would not even consider attending where is

607
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 5: the line drawn? And if the government is doing it,

608
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 5: the government must observe the tenets of the First Amendment.

609
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 4: So again, I think you come back to this liability thing.

610
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 5: If you put up some garbage that motivates somebody to

611
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 5: go out and hurt some folks, then you ought to

612
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 5: be held liable.

613
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it just is strange to me that

614
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: there's a completely different set of I mean, they're clearly publishers, right,

615
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean, these websites are publishing things, but there's literally

616
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: no accountability. And I think so much about like the

617
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: oil companies, right, won't someone think of Exxon Oil companies

618
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of other companies like this

619
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: have gotten huge tax incentives.

620
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: They've you know, they've been able to.

621
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: Harlay the federal government into dollars, whereas local news places

622
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: where they really are doing a public good, they don't

623
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: reap those same rewards. And curious as to sort of

624
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: why that happens. I'm sorry to be a socialist here.

625
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's not socialist. Look, the difference between oil

626
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 4: and information is that oil is not mentioned in the

627
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: First Amendment, and we as a country do take the

628
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 4: concept of free expression, really seriously, and it's codified in

629
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 4: our First Amendment in a way that oil is not.

630
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: Right, but oil gets more support from the federal government

631
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: than the First Amendment.

632
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 4: Right, Well, I'm not going to justify that.

633
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 5: I don't think oil should get a dime of support

634
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 5: from it.

635
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I don't either, nor should call.

636
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: But I mean, I'm just so struck by, like the

637
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: incredible ability that lobbyists have to still push around the

638
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: federal government in ways that because there's so little local news.

639
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: I know, stuff just from watching c SPAN that never

640
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: makes it to newspapers.

641
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right, and you know you highlighted local news

642
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 5: absolutely critical. I mean, everybody who studies this stuff and

643
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 5: the slow erosion or this rapid erosion of our democracy

644
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 5: identifies local news is one of the real bulwarks against

645
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 5: the insanity. And by the way, Molly, this this opens

646
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 5: up another door that people don't always want to hear.

647
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 5: You know, if you lean left, you sort of think,

648
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 5: what's the government going to do about this? I don't

649
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 5: ever in a town hall meeting miss the opportunity to

650
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 5: tell whatever one hundred and fifty people showed up that look,

651
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 5: we're going to work through these issues. Eventually we'll have

652
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 5: a federal privacy law, you know, Eventually we'll be smarter

653
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 5: about regulating garbage on the social media platforms.

654
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 4: It will be hard to the First Amendment. But son

655
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 4: of a gun, you're a citizen of the United States

656
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 4: of America. You are the most fortunate political actor through

657
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 4: human history. You live at the wealthiest, most powerful country

658
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 4: in the world, and you make the decisions, and with

659
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 4: that comes a great deal of responsibility. So, my friend,

660
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 4: if you're watching Fox News six hours a day and

661
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 4: at the end of those six hours, your hair is

662
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 4: on fire, and you make democrats for traders, you know,

663
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 4: or if you're quite frankly watching something way out there

664
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 4: on the left and at the end of that you

665
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 4: are out of your mind literally with anger and rage.

666
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 4: You are being manipulated.

667
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 3: You know.

668
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 5: The truth of the matter is molly that most of

669
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 5: the things that we argue about here in DC, other

670
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 5: than by the way, you know, whether Donald Trump is

671
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 5: going to take us into an autocracy, our tax rates,

672
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 5: our subsidies. You know, these arguments happen between the sixty

673
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 5: and the forty yard lines. You know, nobody should hate

674
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 5: anybody over agricultural policy. Or tax policy, or what percentage

675
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 5: of our you know, GDP we spend on foreign policy.

676
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 5: So my point is that American citizens need to step

677
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 5: up and start being critical thinkers and start seeing themselves

678
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 5: as stewards.

679
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 4: Of our democracy. Because if all you're doing is thinking

680
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 4: about politics as a mode of self entertainment, dare I say,

681
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 4: we'll lose our democracy.

682
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

683
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: Unfortunately they're not even doing that anymore because there's like

684
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: a Great News blackout. If Mike Johnson starts to really

685
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: dog walk Democrats, which he might try to, will you

686
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: guys do a.

687
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: Motion to vacate?

688
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: Probably not, because you guys have the power to remove

689
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: him from his job anytime.

690
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I suppose the way that would play.

691
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 5: I remember we're in the minority, so we probably couldn't

692
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 5: you know, if we tried to do a motion of

693
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 5: VAK Weirdly, every single Republican would vote against it. But

694
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 5: you know, no, I guess in theory, you know, we

695
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 5: could find Marjorie Taylor Green on the floor and say, hey,

696
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 5: we saved this guy last time, but we're not going

697
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 5: to do it again.

698
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 4: I suppose. So, you know, again, I'm one of these.

699
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 5: People that really cares about about you know, functionality and progress, right,

700
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 5: So I need to contemplate that.

701
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 4: But yeah, again, I'm still smarting. As I told you earlier.

702
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 5: I don't mind Speaker Johnson pushing right wing stuff, That's

703
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 5: what happens in this building. But I just despise the

704
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 5: fact that a guy that I thought had some integrity

705
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 5: would stand up in front of a New York courthouse

706
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 5: and cast out on the twenty election and propagate falsehoods

707
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 5: that he knows are falsehoods people making right leaning policy proposals.

708
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 5: Here is what Washington is about. Lying in the service

709
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 5: of becoming a more senior acolyte in the Donald Trump

710
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 5: universe is another way in which we lose our demandocracy.

711
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: Congressman Hans, thank you so much for joining me.

712
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 4: Thank you, Molly, A pleasure always.

713
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: John Gans is the author of When the Clock Broke,

714
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: Conman Conspiracists, and How America Cracked Up in the early

715
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. Welcome to Fast Politics. Welcome back, John Gants.

716
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

717
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: Talk to us about the book When the Clock Broke.

718
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 4: Well, this is my book. It's coming out June eighteenth.

719
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 4: That's called When the Clock Broke, Conman Conspiracists and How

720
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 4: America cracked up in the early nineteen nineties, and basically,

721
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 4: like I think a lot of political books in the

722
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 4: past few years, this is an effort to understand the

723
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 4: election of Donald Trump and the country at large, but

724
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 4: instead of being about him, it goes back quite a

725
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 4: bit in time. The inspiration for the book was a

726
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 4: few things. Back in twenty seventeen, Rick Pearlstein, the author

727
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 4: of Nixon Land and Reaganland. He wrote an article for

728
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 4: The New York Times magazine trying to buy his picture

729
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 4: of what the conservative movement had been and say that,

730
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 4: you know, the cranks and the and the crackpots that

731
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 4: he thought had been had been marginalized, were actually much

732
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 4: more important than he had thought. So we called for

733
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 4: kind of revision of the history of American conservatism.

734
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: So that was one inspiration for the book.

735
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 4: And then around the same time, I had found this

736
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: essay called right Wing Populism by a libertarian economist named

737
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 4: Murray Rothbart, which was basically kind of a sketch.

738
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 3: It was from nineteen ninety two.

739
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 4: It's kind of a sketch of trumpsm Before Trump became

740
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 4: a politician, obviously, he was part of the media world

741
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 4: and part of you know, culture back then. So I

742
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 4: was very excited by that, and I thought I had

743
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 4: kind of found the Rosetta stone to all this sort

744
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 4: of stuff. I tried very hard to bring this to

745
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 4: people's attention. I didn't know Jamel Bowie, who's you know,

746
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 4: now my good friend and podcast partner. I didn't know

747
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 4: Rick Pearlstein, who's now a friend and kind of my

748
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 4: mentor at the time. And I was writing emails to

749
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 4: people trying to get them think it's interesting because Iconic

750
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 4: kind of found the secret. Well, no one paid attention.

751
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 4: Turned out to be a good thing because I had

752
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 4: to start writing by myself. I started writing a couple

753
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 4: of articles about this for a magazine called The Baffler,

754
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 4: and then over the years that turned into the book.

755
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 4: And this book's about the early nineteen nineties. Is mostly

756
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 4: about the election of nineteen ninety two and a little

757
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 4: bit at the end of the nineteen ninety one and

758
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 4: what happened in that time period was David Duke, former

759
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 4: Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and Neo Nazi,

760
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 4: ran for governor of Louisiana and did quite well with

761
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 4: white voters.

762
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 3: He won the majority of white voters.

763
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 4: And Pat Buchannan tried to primary George H. W.

764
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 3: Bush.

765
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 4: He did not do that successfully, but he wounded Bush's

766
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 4: candidacy and kind of demonstrated the existence of this right

767
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 4: wing populist protest vote within the GOP coalition. So that's

768
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 4: the beginning of the book. Starts with them and the

769
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: kind of writers and intellectuals that surrounded them. So this

770
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 4: book is, you know, there's a lot of different metaphors

771
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 4: you could use. It's a prehistory of trump as a

772
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 4: where it's the Rosetta stone of trump Ism is one

773
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 4: way of looking at it. And this was a time

774
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 4: when a lot of the issues that are you know,

775
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 4: facing the country in terms of problems with the economics,

776
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 4: problems and culture first started to assert themselves after the

777
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 4: Cold War had ended. That's the quickest way I can

778
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 4: describe the book.

779
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: So what are the lessons of this early history?

780
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: Because there's another book.

781
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: I read about the sort of the rights obsession with authoritarianism.

782
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: I mean, what can we learn from this history?

783
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 4: That is very much depending on the reader. I hesitate

784
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 4: to say in advance.

785
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: What you learned?

786
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 4: What I learned? Well, I would say that the authoritarianism

787
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 4: of the GOP has much longer history than we might

788
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 4: have known before. It is something that they never properly

789
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 4: coped with. The myth of the GOP as having, you know,

790
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 4: and the Conservative movement is having kind of pushed out.

791
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 3: Its cranks is false.

792
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 4: I learned that, you know, this current in American politics

793
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 4: which sort of reappeared and then was ignored, has deeper

794
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 4: roots than was imagined. I learned that there's an enormous

795
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 4: amount of discontent in American life beneath the surface or

796
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 4: not sow beneath the surface, and the right is very

797
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 4: good at interpreting it and giving it political shape.

798
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: Can we do another minute on that, because I think

799
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: that's really important, the Right being able to sort of

800
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 1: take their supporters or the people who are vulnerable to

801
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: them and.

802
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 2: Exploiting their unhappiness.

803
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: And so that's like Democrats seem not completely unable, in fact,

804
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: to their detriment to do.

805
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: How do you think Republicans are able to do this?

806
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 4: Well, it's a complicated question. I think Republicans are more

807
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,919
Speaker 4: at this time, at least the writers and the more

808
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 4: intellectual figures that I talk about this book. We're fourth right.

809
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 4: You know, the country was heading in an uncertain and

810
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 4: even bad you know, there was a recession at this time.

811
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 4: There was a lot of concern about are we talking

812
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 4: about We're talking about nineteen ninety through nineteen ninety two

813
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 4: pretty much. So there was a lot of uncertainty about

814
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 4: what the country meant after the Cold War without an

815
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 4: external enemy. You know, there was a lot of concern

816
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 4: about the changing demographics in America. So what it meant

817
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 4: to be American was something that wasn't very clear to people.

818
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 4: And the Republicans, well not the Republicans, but this faction

819
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 4: within the Republican Party in the conservative movement, you know,

820
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 4: had an answer to it, which was, we know you're scared,

821
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 4: we know you're angry. Your right to be scared and angry,

822
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,959
Speaker 4: and here's who you should be scared and angry at liberals, minorities.

823
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: So they gave them an enemy.

824
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 3: That essentially, they gave them an enemy.

825
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 4: They said, the reason why you feel dispossessed, the reason

826
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 4: why you feel like you're losing your country, is because

827
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 4: these people are taking it from you. That these people

828
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 4: could have. You know, a lot of different balances could

829
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 4: be this group of that group, or just a vague

830
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 4: notion of an enemy. But yes, they shaped the politics.

831
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 4: You know, the Cold War ended. We always had an

832
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,439
Speaker 4: external enemy from World War Two to through the Cold War,

833
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 4: and they began to shape the politics around domestic enmity, right,

834
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 4: so the Cold War became domestic. It was about defeating

835
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 4: the left, the liberals, the commists, so to speak, at home,

836
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 4: who were esconced in the media, in academia and government.

837
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 4: But there was another dimension to it, which is that

838
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 4: they latched onto a real sense that the economy and

839
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 4: the wake of Reagan was really not no longer geared

840
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 4: in the interest of middle class people, and it was

841
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 4: very difficult to make a living on a single income.

842
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 4: Lots of jobs at disappeared, manufacturing jobs that disappeared, but

843
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 4: then you know, a lot of white collar jobs were

844
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 4: beginning to leave the country or does not exist anymore.

845
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 4: So they observed this uncertain world that came up with

846
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: a very clear picture of it and a clear enemy,

847
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 4: and this message began to resonate. The response of the

848
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 4: political establishment was not particularly visionary or energetic. It kind

849
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 4: of papered over this moment that revealed a deep discontent

850
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 4: in American life with temporary fixes and compromises, but not

851
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 4: a broad vision of where the country should go a

852
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 4: new deal, a new new deal or something like that.

853
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 4: So they kind of offered a more clear image, even

854
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 4: though it was a very negative one. It was a

855
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: world that people could begin to see themselves and too.

856
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 4: And you also have to remember this is the dawning

857
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 4: of the age of cable TV and the dawning of

858
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 4: the age of the radio talk show. Well not the

859
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 4: dawning of it, but the moment where it became really dominant.

860
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 4: Rush Limbo becomes enormously popular, and he's speaking, he says it,

861
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 4: you know, for a lot of people who you know,

862
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,439
Speaker 4: economically they might be doing okay, but they feel very

863
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 4: alienated by the culture and they feel very angry. And

864
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 4: he's the voice of that. And on cable you know,

865
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 4: you start to see a lot of people people Cable

866
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 4: news is driven by, you know, incentives of entertainment and commerce.

867
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 4: You start to see a lot of people put on

868
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 4: TV for their entertainment value because they're outrageous and they

869
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 4: are good TV, but maybe not it's not responsible journalism

870
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 4: to put them front and center all the time.

871
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: One of the things I was told was that one

872
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:22,959
Speaker 2: of the.

873
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: Biggest get out the vote makers on the Republican side

874
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: was in fact, Rush Limbaugh.

875
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 4: Oh, Rush Limbaugh was one of the most important figures

876
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 4: in the Republican Party from you this year until his death,

877
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 4: to the point at which probably maybe one of the

878
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 4: most powerful people on the right where you know, you

879
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 4: could not criticize Rush Limbo. You criticize Rush Limbo at

880
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 4: your own peril. If you look back over the last

881
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 4: thirty years of people on the right who dared to

882
00:43:53,880 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 4: criticize Rush Limbo for his vulgarity or his aggression, you

883
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 4: will find that very controlly. Thereafter they usually apologize to him.

884
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 4: And that's because of the enormous power that he had

885
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 4: and the enormous connection with the grassroots constituency that lots

886
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 4: of writers, editorial writers you know, or members of the

887
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 4: party didn't necessarily have. So he was sort of the

888
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 4: voice of Republicanism, which is something pat By Cannon said

889
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 4: during this primary campaign. He said, if I'm elected, I'll

890
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 4: make Russi Lombo my communications director.

891
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: When you sort of are looking at this story of

892
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: how we got to Trump, what do you think the

893
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: kind of tent poles were. This is this intentionally very

894
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 1: big question, but like think about like one of the

895
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 1: things I would say is that there's a direct line

896
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: from Newt Gingrich to Donald Trump. What other things are

897
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: there that are like that? Where you when you're working

898
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: in this book, you were like, oh.

899
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 4: Shit, oh absolutely well. I think Ross Perrot is another

900
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 4: figure in the book which is a kind of billionaire

901
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 4: OUTSI populist. Ross Perrot was not as conservative ideologically. He

902
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 4: was a kind of mix of unclear positions, but basically

903
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 4: kind of had a vague message about cleaning up the government,

904
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 4: didn't really give that much of a shit about the

905
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 4: constitutional system or if he broke it or didn't or

906
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 4: bald or didn't. Have a kind of vague notion of

907
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 4: showing patriotism or nationalism that was tied into a lot

908
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 4: of myth making about America, Norman Rockwell type imagery. And

909
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 4: you know, he ran a campaign that was enormously popular

910
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 4: in this time with this message and you know, having

911
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 4: this rich guy come out of nowhere saying I can

912
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 4: fix the country with you know, pretty much a right

913
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 4: wing or reactionary balance the whole thing. I don't think

914
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 4: anybody could look at that and not see, you know,

915
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 4: foreshadowing of Donald Trump. You know, Another thing that happened

916
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 4: in this ero, and this is one of my favorite

917
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 4: parts of the book, is John Gotti becomes kind of

918
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 4: a folk hero in New York. And John Gotti becomes

919
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 4: a folk hero in New York because a lot of

920
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 4: people aren't nostalgic for what John Gotti represents, right.

921
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: Uses what murdering people or the criminality.

922
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 4: Of course, he's a murder and a criminal, but for

923
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 4: some reason, he represented the good old days to a

924
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 4: lot of people, and an old way of being a

925
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 4: proper man, of providing for one's family. And the mob,

926
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 4: you know, seemed compared to the chaos that prevailed in

927
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 4: the city and in the country, there was something familiar

928
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 4: and desiral about it, even if they were, you know,

929
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 4: just criminals when it came down to it. So John

930
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 4: Gotti becomes a folk hero. Rudy Giuliani obviously we all

931
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 4: think of him, as you know, in this time period,

932
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 4: as mister Klean going after the mob. But Rudy Giuliani.

933
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety two, leeds Or is part of a

934
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 4: kind of proto January sixth where the New York Police

935
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 4: Department besieges City Hall in a riot almost you know,

936
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 4: storms it. Yeah.

937
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: No, Now, I grew up in the city, so I

938
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: know how much he sucks.

939
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, you remember this thing. So that's another

940
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 4: another tenpole as you as you would say, which is,

941
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 4: you know, Juliani was also playing into these white backlash

942
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 4: politics in his own way, and he was late occupying

943
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 4: the same world as John Gotti on the tabloids every day,

944
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,959
Speaker 4: and you know, John Gotti's in the New York Post

945
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 4: and they asked their Post readers, who do you believe

946
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 4: the witnesses against John Gotti or John Gotty? And most,

947
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 4: you know, more than half of New York Post readers

948
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 4: say we believe John Gotti, you know. And the people

949
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 4: hang up yellow ribbons for John Gotti like they did

950
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 4: for the troops and the Gulf. And you know, Trump

951
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 4: comes out of New York in this era where the

952
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 4: eighties and this era, and it's really hard not to

953
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 4: think about him coming out of that context as well.

954
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 4: And then the other thing that happens around this time.

955
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 4: Two signal events for the far right in this country

956
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 4: are Ruby Ridge and Waco, where you have the extreme

957
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 4: right more in Ruby Ridge and Waco. It's slightly more

958
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 4: of a complicated question, but having these events of martyrdom

959
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 4: where their story about an oppressive federal government coming after

960
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 4: white Christian Americans begins to look plausible to a lot

961
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:24,399
Speaker 4: more people. So you have the success, in a way,

962
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 4: or the breakthrough into mainstream culture of this kind of

963
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 4: extreme right view of what the federal government is up to.

964
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 3: Now.

965
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 4: I always say, when you kind of put all of

966
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 4: these images on top of each other, you got the mobster,

967
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 4: you got Rudy whipping up the cops. You got Ross Perrot,

968
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 4: you got the far right, you know, Ruby Ridge, Waco stuff,

969
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,879
Speaker 4: and you got Buchanan and David Duke, who, by the way,

970
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 4: was very enthusiastic about Donald Trump when he came along

971
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 4: in twenty fifteen sixteen. You kind of get that perfect

972
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 4: image of Trump, right. You got everything there. You've got

973
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 4: the billionaire part of it, the far right, neo nazi

974
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 4: part of it, You've got the tabloid entertainment part of it.

975
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 4: Trump is a little bit of a mobster. So this

976
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 4: is like Trump as a political I mean, obviously we

977
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 4: know he's been around for a while, but as a

978
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 4: political figure, he's sort of a crystallization of all these

979
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 4: elements that were still scattered and he kind of embodies

980
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 4: all of them. So that's what fascinating about it. I

981
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 4: could just see little reflections and glimpses of the Trump

982
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,439
Speaker 4: movement and these various things that were going on back then,

983
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 4: and it took almost thirty years for it all to

984
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: coalesce in a single figure. But it's interesting to see

985
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 4: it scattered and kind of gathering itself in this time.

986
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it's such an interesting way to look at

987
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: the party. So, I mean it seems when you look

988
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: at this very recent history, you have extremism beedback by normal,

989
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: extremism be back by normal, always sort of bubbling under

990
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: the surface.

991
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: I mean, does that seem like a fairis Yeah.

992
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 4: I think that we have to rethink a little bit

993
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 4: what we understand by extreme and normal, and we also

994
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 4: have to pay. I think what the lesson here is

995
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 4: is to be good citizens. We really actually do have

996
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 4: to pay. I mean, the fringe is now the mainstream,

997
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 4: so it's.

998
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: Right in the GOP. But it is like interesting to me.

999
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: I always whenever I interview anyone, I was pushed back

1000
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: when they say, well, they're like extremes on both sides and.

1001
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 4: D because I'm like, well, the extremes really took over

1002
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 4: on the on the right.

1003
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 2: And they really didn't on the left.

1004
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 1: And of anything, the center has been really good at

1005
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: smashing down the left, you know, in a concerted effort,

1006
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: whenever they've showed any kind of like real interest in

1007
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: criminal justice reform. I mean, there's just been such a

1008
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: crushing effect from the center, and for some reason, the

1009
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: center is unable to do that with the far right.

1010
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 3: Yes, I wonder why that is.

1011
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 4: That's a complicate why you see that in this period too,

1012
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 4: because obviously Clinton wins this election with a quite centrist message.

1013
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 4: I think it's because ultimately that stuff on the right

1014
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 4: is both not taking quite as seriously. You know, there's

1015
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 4: the problem is is that we're not very good. Whenever

1016
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 4: there's anything going on in politics, you have to kind

1017
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 4: of weigh it as a possibility that might grow. So

1018
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 4: when you see things that are very fringe, you know,

1019
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 4: the natural reaction is to say, well, that's just Kooch's

1020
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 4: out there, right. Those people are working very hard to

1021
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 4: get the message out there, and you know, they might

1022
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 4: be nothing right now, but you don't know ten twenty

1023
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 4: thirty years. So I would say my message in this

1024
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 4: book is pay very close attention to the margins. You know,

1025
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 4: that is where you see the future. It's sort of

1026
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 4: laid out, you know, when you want to find out

1027
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 4: what's coming down the pike, you can see it and

1028
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 4: what not, you know, without fail. But if you begin

1029
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 4: to learn how to read politics, you can kind of see, oh, well,

1030
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 4: this is something with a growing constituency, and this is

1031
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 4: something that may be very small or disorganized at the moment,

1032
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,240
Speaker 4: but is speaking to more and more people who feel

1033
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 4: dissatisfied with the current way of doing things. So I

1034
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 4: think that there is too much focus. I've been criticized

1035
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 4: for focusing too much on weirdos and exotic things, and

1036
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 4: I just understand what people are saying because they're like, wow,

1037
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,760
Speaker 4: the people with a lot of power are the normal people,

1038
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 4: and they do the harmful things. I get that's true.

1039
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 4: But these people in the margins one day may become

1040
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 4: the mainstream, and they're also always pushing the mainstream in

1041
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,320
Speaker 4: their own direction. So I would say, what I enjoy

1042
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 4: doing and I think is interesting, and I hope the

1043
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 4: book does is to try to help people look at

1044
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 4: the whole political field and see even among the things

1045
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 4: that don't appear important or pear silly or peer weird.

1046
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 4: I mean, Trump is the app So listen to this.

1047
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 4: This guy has been hanging around politics for twenty years,

1048
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 4: seeming like a side show, launching these ridiculous campaigns that

1049
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 4: go nowhere. He's a joke, and suddenly he's not a

1050
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 4: joke anymore. So that's my message and my approach to

1051
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 4: reading politics is take the margins seriously. They represent the future.

1052
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 4: And you know, so when you're reading the paper or

1053
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 4: you're understanding the news and you see some little thing

1054
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 4: that seems marginal or minor at that time, have a

1055
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 4: little imagination of what might might happen. Is basically I

1056
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 4: hope people will take out of this book.

1057
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 2: Thank you, John Ganz, Thank you so.

1058
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 3: Much, Molly.

1059
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 4: This has been great.

1060
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 2: No moment second, Jesse Cannon.

1061
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 3: Molly, John Fast.

1062
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 4: I see there's a lot of fuckery down in the

1063
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,720
Speaker 4: Louisiana State House around birth control.

1064
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 3: What are you seeing here?

1065
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 1: Basically, Louisiana decided that they were going to make the

1066
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: abortion pill metha pristone, which is super safe and used

1067
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: for miscarriage treatment and used for all sorts of other

1068
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 1: uterine problems.

1069
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 2: They were going to make it a controlled substance.

1070
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: So now it was actually an anti ulcer drug when

1071
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 1: it first started, so has multiple uses besides abortion. Now

1072
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: you will be able to prescribe methapristone, this is so

1073
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: stupid for non abortion reasons. That's still legal, but the

1074
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: drug will become a controlled substance. Doctors will have to

1075
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: have a special Drug Enforcement Administration license to prescribe these

1076
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,439
Speaker 1: drugs in the state, will be able to track when

1077
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,280
Speaker 1: they're prescribed, to whom and what pharmacy these prescriptions are filled.

1078
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: You see where this is going, right, They are taking

1079
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: away your right two abortion pills, and that, my friend,

1080
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: is our moment of fuckr it for this episode of

1081
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to

1082
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: hear the best minds in politics makes sense of all

1083
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Speaker 1: this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send

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Speaker 1: it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again,

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Speaker 1: thanks for listening.