1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language. 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: And the thing of it happens with most serial killers 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: is that they begin oftentimes killing the person in a 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: very simple way, shooting them or strangling or cutting them. 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: So then they devised ways to torture them in order 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: to have more excitement out of it, because, let's face it, 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: just killing somebody's real boring. Welcome to Sleuth. I'm Linda Sawyer. 8 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: In this episode, we invite Dr von der Pelto to 9 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,639 Speaker 1: the program. If you recall from episode one, I describe 10 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: how my investigative journey first began on this case at 11 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: Dr Pelto's southern California home. It was early to member 12 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: and I was commissioned to report and write a profile 13 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: piece on Dr Pelto, who enjoyed a colorful career as 14 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: a psychologist with an office in the Los Angeles Men's 15 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: County Jail. It was there she treated her patients, who 16 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: just happened to be some of the most prolific serial 17 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: killers that terrorized Los Angeles residence back in the eighties. 18 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: After our interview, Dr Pelto included me in a small 19 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: gathering of her neighbors for a Christmas celebration at the house. 20 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: On that evening, I met local theater owners Jeff and 21 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: Nancy Hathcock, where Daniel Wozniak performed as the lead for 22 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: their musicals. It was also the same location where Daniel 23 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: killed and dismembered his first victim, Sam Hare, in the 24 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: attic of their Liberty Theater. From that moment I never 25 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: returned home, and thus began my odyssey in uncovering the 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: details of this case. I want to welcome you, Vanda, 27 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: to Sleuth today. You certainly are someone that's been long 28 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: time now in my past, and we started together when 29 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: when I did that profile piece on you, and it 30 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: all began from there, right long time ago. Now I know, 31 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: it's like when you have to start counting on. We're 32 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: going to be December eighteen very soon, right, So it's 33 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: been a three year odyssey. One of the reasons why 34 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: I wanted you to come in and talk to us 35 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: today was because, of course, of your psychological background that 36 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: you have, and certainly your your history of having very 37 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: interesting clients. Why don't you share with our audience some 38 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: of those clients and some of some of that background. 39 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: I was very fortunate that I was brand new PhD 40 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: and hired into the l A County Men's Dale back 41 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: in the very early eighties, and at that time we 42 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: had such a rash of serial killers. I don't know 43 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: if it was contagious or if it was in the water. 44 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: Some of my clients were the trash bag murderers and 45 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: Douglas Clark, the Sunset Killer, and then the Freeway killers. 46 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: There were five of them and I saw all but four, 47 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: and then the Hillside Stranglers, Ken Bianchi and Angelo Buono 48 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: and John Holmes, the famous porn star. I want to 49 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: talk about the Hillside Stranglers for a moment because you 50 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: had mentioned in the profile piece I had done with 51 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: you several years back that there was this symbiotic relationship 52 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: that they had that you felt as if that was 53 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: part of sort of maybe why they decided to kill, 54 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: because together they became this combustible relationship that ignited this 55 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: desire and need to kill. Oftentimes I felt the same 56 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: about Daniel Wozniak and Rachel Buffett. I feel that after 57 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: all the interviews and research I've done, that I don't 58 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: believe Daniel Wazniak would have killed if you never met Rachel, 59 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: and I'm not alone in that feeling. The customs of 60 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: police feel the same, and I'd like you to talk 61 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: about what it is about that those types of relationships 62 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: that that basically draw them to to to do such dark, 63 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: evil crimes. It's kind of like Bonnie and Clyde in 64 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: a way. It's the same with really the two Hillside stranglers. 65 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: Bianchi was never killing until he met his cousin Angelo, 66 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: and their first killing was as a result of being 67 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: angry at a prostitute and to get back at her 68 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: for betraying him and stealing money from Angelo Buono, the 69 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: cousin Uh they decided to kill her and to set 70 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: an example to any other prostitutes. But without the two 71 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: of them it would not have worked. And Angelo said 72 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: that kim be a key was he was the very, 73 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: very handsome, attractive man, and he could get the women 74 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: to come along to Angelo's place. Angelo's place was in 75 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: upholstery shop in Los Angeles, and so Ken would go 76 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: out cruising and find an attractive woman, bring her back 77 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: to Angelo's place, and then they would rape her for 78 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: as long as they wanted to and then kill her. 79 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: So you're saying that alone, they didn't have the desire 80 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: but together, like two pieces of the puzzle, they they 81 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: clicked and then off they went. They needed each other 82 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: to in order to perform these acts exactly. And the 83 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: thing that happens with most serial killers is that they 84 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: begin oftentimes killing the person in a very simple way, 85 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: maybe shooting or like the Freeways, strangling them. But as 86 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: with Ken and Angelo, they got bored with just shooting 87 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: them or strangling them or cutting them, so then they 88 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: devised ways to torture them in order to have more 89 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: excitement out of it, because, let's face it, just killing 90 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: somebody's real boring. So they did get a high out 91 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: of it, absolutely they did. It was lots of fun. 92 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: That whole idea of getting a high from killing and 93 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: doing it in such a way that gave them that 94 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: jolt is something that I think also could be looked 95 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: at with this case. Because Chris Williams, who was a 96 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: new friend of theirs, who had loaned them the money 97 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: because they were getting evicted the week of the murders. 98 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: They were getting evicted on Tuesday, and Chris Williams had 99 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: met them fairly recently and decided he liked them and 100 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: they were nice, and so he wanted to help them, 101 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: and he gave them a bit of money to stave 102 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: off the eviction. It was two thousand dollars actually, and 103 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: he got that from a charity that was thrown for 104 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: him because he didn't have any health insurance and so 105 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: he had some health issues and he thought, you know, 106 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: these people raised almost ten thousand dollars for me. I'm 107 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: going to pay it forward and help these people. And 108 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: and his whole thing was, I just wanted to make 109 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: sure I got it back. So I came up with 110 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: this loan shark story. Right, I need the money back 111 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: by Friday. I'll give you four days kind of thing. 112 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: And so that's why the murders were committed on that 113 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: Friday because of this loan shark deadline. But one of 114 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: the reasons why I'm sharing with you this is because 115 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: Chris Williams had been with them the night before and 116 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: they were having a little barbecue barbecue sausages on their 117 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: deck after one of the nine performances that Daniel and 118 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: Rachel were in, and he said that he will never 119 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: forget this scene as long as he lives. Dan was 120 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: out in the deck and he started reciting word for 121 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: word the role that Matt Damon had played in The 122 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: Talented Mr. Ripley. It's a movie that was written by 123 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: Patricia high Smith, who was a sort of Edgar Allan 124 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: Poe type. You know, she was the Stephen, the Stephen 125 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: King of Europe, and she wrote this movie about a 126 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: young man who was conning people and stealing people's identities 127 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: and when they found out who he was, he ultimately 128 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: would kill the person. So he loved being in this 129 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: world to pretend. And this was Daniel's favorite role. So 130 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: Dan was on this deck. He was reciting word for 131 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: word this characters part and he started singing and when 132 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: he stopped, Chris Williams looked at him and said, oh 133 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: my gosh, like, how do you know that so well? 134 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: And he said, he's me. That's my favorite part of 135 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: all time. At that moment, when he's singing this ari 136 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: from from this movie, Sam leans over his deck. He's 137 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: two decks up right, he lives two apartments up, two 138 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: floors up from Dan, and he leans over and basically 139 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: acknowledges Dan for this beautiful song he's singing and say, hey, dude, 140 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: you know you're doing a great job, but knock it down. 141 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: If not, you know, we're all trying to sleep. I 142 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: gotta help you in the morning, right, and he goes, Sam, 143 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: you want to come down and say I's like no, no, no, 144 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: but I'll see in the morning. And the morning was 145 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: when Sam was lured to the attic and ultimately killed. 146 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: So that whole scene for Chris, he said, for him, 147 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: he sensed this need that Daniel had to feel what 148 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: it was like to to kill based on this role. 149 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: That was something he embodied. And I'm wondering how you 150 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: feel about that scene and what what does it How 151 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: does that strike you. Oftentimes people have fantasies about killing 152 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: William Bonnon, the freeway killer, was a truck driver, and 153 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: all day long he would fantasize about who he was 154 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: going to pick up and where he was going to 155 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: kill him and how he was going to do it. 156 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: And so I would guess that Dan was having some 157 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: of these same kind of fantasies, but until he hooked 158 00:09:54,200 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: up with Rachel, he didn't go through with it. He 159 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: was extremely dependent upon her, and he has many of 160 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: the qualities of a borderline personality, where they're very dependent 161 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: upon somebody else and they are easily manipulated because they 162 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: have this huge tremendous fear of abandonment. And so once 163 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: he got involved with Rachel, this beautiful woman, and from 164 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: what I understand, Dan had had very little dating experience 165 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: or sexual experience with a woman. So when Rachel was 166 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: interested in him, he had to do everything he could 167 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: do to keep her, and he certainly did. Yes, he 168 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: did what she needed. And so that's where that diagnosis 169 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: of potentially borderline personality. Although we should tell our listeners 170 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: he was never your patient and you never met him, 171 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: but you certainly listened to some phone calls of his 172 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: between himself and and Rachel, as well as learning from 173 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: some of the other interviews that I've had exactly history exactly. 174 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: But the borderline personality, that's that's very interesting because again 175 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: it involves another person to take you to those new heights, 176 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: to take you to that level of evil that you 177 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: never thought existed in your personality before. In fact, he 178 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: said to police when they said, what did you feel 179 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: like when you were cutting off Sam's head, and he said, 180 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: I was smiling and laughing, And they said smiling and laughing? Why? 181 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: And he said, because I just never imagined myself in 182 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: this place, like I never imagined myself doing something like this. 183 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: Maybe didn't imagine himself cutting a hat off, but I 184 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: think he imagined and killing someone. Something else about him 185 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: he had a lot of anti social tendencies, also being 186 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: able to steal money from other people, um being able 187 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: to not pay their debts, changing his name or his 188 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: persona to fit in with Rachel or fit in with 189 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: anyone he's conning. He actually that's very interesting because he 190 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: told Chris Williams, when Chris Williams brought up this whole 191 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: loan shark thing. He had said to Chris Williams prior 192 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: to that conversation that he was a fellow pison, you know, 193 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: and he would do the Italian accent. He wasn't Italian 194 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 1: at all, but he like a chameleon. He became that 195 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: in order to fulfill the con and he was an 196 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: actor and she was an actress. So this fit very 197 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: nicely with the two of them. One of the other 198 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: activities that I learned that the two of them shared 199 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: together Rachel and Dan, were that they would actually play 200 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: a game and try to come up with scenario on 201 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: how they would kill someone and get away with it. 202 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: Different Like, they plot out these plans of how they 203 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: would do it, and how they would get away scott free, 204 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: which to me, that's a very odd hobby, and it 205 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: had to be mutual, and had it not been mutual, 206 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: they would not have planned to get married. Something I 207 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: thought in listening to the phone calls was I didn't 208 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: see any kind of remorse at all. It was all 209 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: simply about how was he going to get away with 210 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: what he had done? But I didn't hear sorry that 211 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: he killed these two people. And I didn't hear anything 212 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: from Rachel either saying oh my god, Dan, what did 213 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: you do? I didn't hear any shock, which led me 214 00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: to believe she already knew. But something extremely strange was 215 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: how she was so insistent in one of the first 216 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: phone calls that she contact the detective and tell the 217 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: detective that Tim had evidence. And I thought for her 218 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: being his fiancee, uh Dan's fiance and then to insist 219 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: upon calling the detective and saying, hey, guess what, dude, um, 220 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: Tim has some evidence. Why I thought this woman doesn't 221 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: love Dan? Well, there was many indications that she didn't 222 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: love Dan, and in fact her own words, she said 223 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: I was never over the top about him, but I 224 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: was okay with that I mean the night Dan was 225 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: arrested from his bachelor party. She was brought in for 226 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: questioning very early the next morning, and she said to 227 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: detectives that, you know, he wasn't a very good lover. 228 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: You know, he had a small penis, you know, and 229 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: and and and this is two days before she's supposed 230 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: to marry the guy. So, I mean, they all thought 231 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: that was so strange. And again the same thing when 232 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: they brought her in. They actually brought her into the 233 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: room because detective one of the detectives said to me, 234 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: we just didn't think she would believe what we were 235 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: going to tell her. We wanted to see her reaction 236 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: when he was sharing with her the details of what 237 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: he was saying. And they said it was because of 238 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: her complete lack of reaction or shock or like you say, 239 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: any kind of sense of remorse or oh my god, 240 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: just the horror right of what he was talking about. 241 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: They saw none of that, and so they felt that 242 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: was this first indication that she was probably part of 243 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,359 Speaker 1: the plan and knew everything. Yeah, I totally agree, Otherwise 244 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: she would have said well on the phone too. I 245 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: it sounded to me listening to the phone call like 246 00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: she had almost been coached before the phone call to 247 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: make leading questions to get him to tell her on 248 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: the telephone a confession on the telephone, and they certainly 249 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: knew it was being recorded. And I thought, Wow, how 250 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: can this woman who supposedly love him keep saying, well, 251 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: just tell me what you did, Dan, Just tell me, 252 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: just tell me what you did. And I thought, if 253 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: he was going to try to plead that he was innocent, 254 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: she was setting him up. Interesting. One of the things 255 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: that I want to to share with you about that 256 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: one phone call where you mentioned that she's saying, you know, 257 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: I ran into Tim, and Tim has this evidence and 258 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: I have to tell the police because the calls being 259 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: recorded before they think I'm trying to cover it up. 260 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: There there's a scenario that you're not aware of that. 261 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: In fact, in that car sitting next to her in 262 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: the passenger seat was a woman by the name of 263 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: Violet Randolph, and Violet Randolph was driving around with her 264 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: that day because Rachel went to the Woznia come to 265 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: tell Darryl and Marianne about Daniels in jail and this 266 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: is what's happening. And as they were leaving the house, 267 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: Tim drove up with his girlfriend at the time, Lisa 268 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: guledge and it was there she got out, went over 269 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: to the so the car where Tim was, and Tim 270 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: she told him that Dan was arrested, and he then 271 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: shared with her, you know I have this evidence. I 272 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: have the bag, I have the gun. And she's putting 273 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: her hands up on her ears. No, no, no, I 274 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: don't want to hear any of this. And so when 275 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: Rachel got back in the car, it was violent that said, 276 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: what are you gonna do about this? I mean, what 277 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: is it true? Does he have evidence? And she's like, yes, 278 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: he has the gun, and she said, you have to 279 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: call police. You have to tell him before that gun disappears. 280 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: And she's like no, no, and and Violet's like, if 281 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: you don't do it, I'm gonna do it because you 282 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: know I have to do it. So she's picking up 283 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: her phone to dial her mother to get Detective Morales's number, 284 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: and at that point Dan calls in from the holding 285 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: cell and that's when she's Babe, you know I have 286 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: to do it. You're you're dead already, like he said, 287 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: if no, no, no, if you do that, I'm dead, 288 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: and she says, you're dead already. I think at that moment, 289 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: She's like, Okay, you're on the hook. I gotta get 290 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: myself off here. You know, I gotta make sure I 291 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: walk away clean, and if you love me, you'll let 292 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: that happen. I totally agree. I thought the whole time 293 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: she was really covering her behind and really setting him 294 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: up and knowing how easily he was manipulated. I think 295 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: she believed and new he would never squeal on her. 296 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: That's one of the questions a lot of people ask 297 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: me about this case. Why after all these years she's 298 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: moved on, she's engaged to someone else. Why haven't you 299 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: given her up? And part of that reason I found. 300 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: In fact, Tim Waznik himself told me that if Rachel 301 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: speaks and if he goes down, she's going down too. 302 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: Like they're both connected. They both spent a week together 303 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: after Dan was arrested when he finally confessed to the murders, 304 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: Rachel spent a week in a hotel room with Tim 305 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: and Lisa Goledge and they were lighting up. In fact, 306 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: him said to me, she was absolutely an expert, brilliant 307 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: at lighting a bowl of crystal meth. I don't even 308 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: know if that's how you say because I know nothing 309 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: about that stuff. But he said, it's it's a kind 310 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: of an intricate pipe, and you pretty much if you're 311 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: lighting it up and using it, you have to know 312 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: what you're doing, right, So he of course knew what 313 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: he was doing, and watching her, he said she was 314 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,479 Speaker 1: an expert, and they sort of just went into this 315 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: crystal meth fog all week, and uh, I guess that's 316 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: probably where they basically made their pact. Sure sounds like that. 317 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: I would like to speak more about the calls, because 318 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: I know that you've listened to there were three calls 319 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: that of all the calls, they were the most significant 320 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: calls because they were the lengthist and they were the 321 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: most I don't know telling if you will, and you 322 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: did listen to those calls, and I'd love to know 323 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: more of your perspective and analysis of those calls and 324 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: what you gathered from them. I think one of the 325 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: things that I was most surprised about, particularly the first call, 326 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: was that Rachel wasn't saying we're going to get you 327 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: a good attorney. Have you talked to attorney? Don't say anything, 328 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: because we all watched TV and we all know you're 329 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: not supposed to confess to anything without an attorney. But 330 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: I never heard those words out of her mouth encouraging 331 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: him to do that. And he seemed like such a dependent, 332 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: kind of weak can I say, Mamma's boy? And Rachel 333 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: was kind of mama to him, and so he was 334 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: very dependent upon her to give him some guidance and 335 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: she didn't. She just pushed him and pushed him to confess. 336 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: Editor's note. For access to all the jail house calls 337 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: between Daniel Wazniak and Rachel Buffett that occurred on May, 338 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: go to our Facebook page at Facebook dot com Backslash 339 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: Sleuth podcast. He he mentioned to her in the calls 340 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: that his life really unraveled when he disconnected from his family, 341 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: and she asked him, why why did you break from 342 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: your family? And I think she knew because he would 343 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: share with her emails from his mother. His mother was 344 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: very blunt about her feelings about Rachel, that she was uneducated, 345 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: she came from a poor family, she wasn't good enough 346 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: for him, and she had quite a long list, actually, 347 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: and I think that Rachel knew what the disconnect was. 348 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: But he went on to describe in these calls that 349 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: he was starting to hear voices. He got to the 350 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: point he didn't like confrontation, and he was getting to 351 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: the point where he was ready to confront and contemplating 352 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: killing his own parents. Who knows, I mean, I often 353 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: wonder because he did share a very similar story to 354 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: Steve Hair. Because Steve Hare was very frustrated he wasn't 355 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: getting enough information from the coast to Masa police at 356 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: the time, understandably, so they were doing an investigation, but 357 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: he wanted to know everything. His only form of peace 358 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: was for him to get any details he could about 359 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: what happened to his son. So he went to the 360 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: horse's mouth. He went to Dan, and Dan met with him, 361 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: and one of the things he did say to him 362 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: was that Sam was not his first target. And he 363 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: told them and it was very kind of eerie because 364 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: every time Marian Wozniak would come to visit Dan, she 365 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: would come with a bible. And then when Dan met 366 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: with Steve Hair, he came with his bible. And as 367 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: he's telling, because Steve wants to know who who was 368 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: your first target, and he opens up his bible and 369 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 1: takes the little golf pencil that was there and he 370 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: writes in the very Bible that he praised with his mother, 371 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: my parents, he writes, Oh my god, Oh my god. 372 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: So he had had he had had fantasies for a 373 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: long time about killing someone. It hated his parents, and 374 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: that was during the time he was dating her. But 375 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 1: again Marian was rejecting her. He never could bring her 376 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: to the house, He can never incorporate her and family holidays. 377 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: He had to lie. The lies, from what I understand, 378 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: especially from his high school and college friends, began based 379 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: on the fact that he had to lie to his 380 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: mother in order to have a normal young man's life, 381 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: in order to go date or go party or do whatever. 382 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: The lies were centered around that social activity because she 383 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: wanted him at home. She didn't want him going out 384 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: with other women that weren't appropriate. Sounds like she was 385 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: very possessive of him and very domineering, and that's probably 386 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: why he hooked up with Rachel, because she was also 387 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: very domineering and mothering and controlling. All of their friends 388 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: say that she definitely wore the pants. She was the 389 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 1: one that called the shots, She was the one in charge. 390 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: He didn't do anything without her knowledge or her approval. 391 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: So you'd said earlier, I think that the two of 392 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: them had discussed killing someone, Rachel and Dan, and so 393 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: it was very easy to see him slide in to 394 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: killing these two people that he considered very very good friends. 395 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: And he didn't have any problem. But I I do 396 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: recall to he needed the money so they could get married. Well, 397 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: that's what instigated. The first thing was when he was 398 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: arrested a couple of weeks before the murders. He was 399 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: arrested for an outstanding du I warn't and ironically it 400 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: was Costa Mesa that arrested him. He didn't have the money, 401 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: they didn't have the bail to get out, so Rachel 402 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: enlisted a mutual friend, a neighbor in the complex, a 403 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: gentleman by the name of of Barnhart, and he started 404 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: calling around trying to collect the money, because after all, 405 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: Dan was going to be in a performance that following 406 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: night and he was the lead, so they had to 407 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: get him out right. So they started calling around and 408 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: one of the people they called was Sam Hair and 409 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: Sam said, I am not participating. I'm not contributing. I 410 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: barely know them well enough to put in money. You know. 411 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do it. And 412 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: When they hung up the phone with him, Dave turned 413 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: to Rachel and said, and he's the one that has 414 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: more money than all of us, right, So so already 415 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: they were kind of upset with Sam. And then finally 416 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: they raised enough money got got Dan out, and they 417 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: went to that afternoon after he was released. In the morning, 418 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: they got they went to the hot tub in the 419 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: complex and Sam was there and Dan starts complaining, oh 420 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: my gosh, I never want to go to jail again. 421 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: That was horrible spending that night. It was just it's 422 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: just not for me. And I'm so glad I don't 423 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: ever ever want to go there again. And Sam responds, dude, 424 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: are you kidding me? Like I spent two years in 425 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: Men's County jail when I was facing my own murder charge, 426 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: and they that was like what, Like they couldn't believe it. 427 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: So together, I think they started zeroing in on Sam 428 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: Harre at that point as their possible target. And then 429 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: the Tuesday before the murders, they had their eviction notice. 430 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: Chris came in with some money, but they didn't have 431 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: all of it, and ultimately Sam offered to help with 432 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: the rest of it. So Sam and Dan went to 433 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: Sam's bank and he took out the money from the 434 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: A t M. Dan was over his shoulder, caught him 435 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: putting the pin number in, saw the gigantic total and 436 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: Sam's account and that was it. That was it, that 437 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: he was it. He was the one, right, he was 438 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: the one they were going to go after he came back. 439 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: And I think you know told Rachel about that, because 440 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: he mentions in the call that he saw the total 441 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: and how he got the pin and uh and he 442 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: was the one. So here is this kid trying to 443 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: help him, right, he goes in and gets the hash 444 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: years checked with all the money from the bank, He 445 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: sees the pen and he and he was their target, 446 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: which was amazing that he could turn on somebody. And 447 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: the Julie also, although I guess that's how he had 448 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: to set Sam up. Well, it's interesting you mentioned Julie 449 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: because that's where police and I believe Rachel's influence really 450 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: stepped up because I had found out from Dave Barnhart, 451 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: the gentleman I just mentioned earlier that helped raise the 452 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: bailed money for day when Dan was arrested for that 453 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: outstanding d y. Dave Barnhart had a major crush on 454 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett Major and they flirted. I mean oftentimes Rachel 455 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: would flirt right in front of Dan. They had this 456 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: these parties that they called Taco Tuesdays, and she would 457 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: be sitting on Dave's lap and say, watch, I'm gonna 458 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: make Dan kiss that guy and he's gonna do it 459 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: for me, or else I won't go home with him. 460 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: And that's what she do. She'd set him up and say, 461 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: you have to kiss so and so or you I'm 462 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: not sleeping with you tonight. And it was a joke 463 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: and he would do it in front of everybody at 464 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: this party and make him the clown. And but that 465 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: it was anything to just make her happy. Yeah, he 466 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: it was his dependence, his fear of losing her. I 467 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: can certainly understand he needed her so much that he 468 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: was willing to kill in order to get the money 469 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: in order to make her happy. And when it came 470 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: to Julie, I think the reason that Julie became part 471 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: of the plan was that she was not only like 472 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,719 Speaker 1: a prop in their play, but she was also someone 473 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: that I believe Rachel might have been a bit jealous 474 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: of because two nights earlier, Dave Barnhard had consummated a 475 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: relationship with Julie. I think he got tired of waiting 476 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: around for anything to really happen with Rachel. Although Rachel 477 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: still wanted the attention, still wanted to believe she was 478 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: the only one that he was in it in he 479 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: was separately having this ongoing friendship that turned into more 480 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: with Julie, and I believe he might have said I'm 481 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: past you now like I'm onto Julie, and that might 482 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: have instigated the whole reason why they needed Julie as 483 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: part of this plan. Well, I can see Rachel because 484 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: just from observing the phone calls, that she was extremely 485 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: narcissistic and insecure, even though she was a beautiful woman. 486 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: And I can easily see seeing all of those texts 487 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: on that telephone that she probably suspected her that he 488 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: was going to two time or leave her. Oh you're 489 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: saying that you Dan, Yeah, I'm thinking yeah, the I 490 00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: don't really I don't really remember Dan Bernhardt. Dave barne 491 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: Heart is just a Dave Barnhard was a person that 492 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: lived in Camden, Martinique and he went to the Orange 493 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: Coast College across the street, and he was very close 494 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: with Sam, and he also but he was very interested 495 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: in Rachel. I mean, he was hot for her. He 496 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: wanted her, but she wasn't necessarily giving allegedly, she wasn't 497 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: giving much up to him. Right, But she loved to 498 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: Dave today. But she but she loved the attention, She 499 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: loved the pursuit, She loved the power she had over men. Right, 500 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: she loved so I My theory is that she found 501 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: out about Dave Barnhard's budding relationship with Julie and it 502 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: had just happened two nights before, and she was jealous. 503 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: And then she sees these texts that Dan is sending 504 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: to her as Sam. Right, he's pretending to be Sam 505 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: because it's on Sam's phone, And she sees him saying, Oh, 506 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: I'm just with my neighbor Dan, I'm helping him move 507 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: furniture in the theater, and she goes, you dummy, you 508 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: just put yourself as the last person to be with 509 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: Sam before he was murdered at the theater. So now 510 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: she's got to go kind of thing or she's part 511 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: of the plan now to make it look like Sam's 512 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: on the run. And they had this jealous love thing 513 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: that you know, went awry and he killed her in 514 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: the apartment because she wouldn't sleep with them or something. 515 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: That was what the theory was, and that that whole 516 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: thing began once Dan came back to the apartment and 517 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: gave Chris Williams the first installment of money. I mean 518 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: that was at that point he was back reconnected with Rachel, 519 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, the text started heightening, the 520 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: loring started to heighten in those texts to Julie. Yeah, 521 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: I thought that that probably Rachel and Dan put a 522 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: plot together to kill Julie in order to blame Sam 523 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: for the murders, and that Sam had taken off. So 524 00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: my supposition was that Rachel and Dan came up with 525 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: that idea. So I don't I don't know so much 526 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: about jealousy, although that certainly could be a component, and 527 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: she wouldn't mind seeing Julie out of the picture. But 528 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,719 Speaker 1: I thought that those two decided, we can put this 529 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: on Sam. It will explain his absence because he killed Julie, right, 530 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: And that's basically what Dan said to police when he 531 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: confessed that that was what the plan was. That Sam 532 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: was on the run, run, and and you know, he 533 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: was trying to escape justice after what he did to Julie. Yeah, 534 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: but I can certainly see that Rachel wouldn't have. Rachel 535 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: had no verbiage of being guilty or feeling remorse for 536 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: Dan killing these two people. So I can easily see 537 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: that her self sinnered. Nous could have made her very 538 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: angry at Julie, feeling that she wasn't number one to 539 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: both Dave and Dan anymore. And she had sent a 540 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: Facebook message back to Julie. I guess Julie earlier that 541 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: day sent a Facebook message to Rachel saying, oh, I 542 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: ran into Dan last night when I was having dinner 543 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: with Sam and Ruben and a bunch of people, and 544 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: he mentioned you're getting married next week in congratulations and Rachel. 545 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: At eleven fifteen that same day, that Friday night, after 546 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: Sam was already murdered and Julie was about to be murdered, 547 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: she said to Julie, Oh, you know, thank you so much. 548 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: When everything calms down, Uh, we'll enjoy some summer sunshine 549 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: at the pool, and look forward to seeing you then. 550 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: And this was at eleven fifteen. Now she told police 551 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: that she was in bed and on her laptop. She 552 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: sent that message in bed, But I found out later 553 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: that she had told another person, this gentleman by the 554 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: name of Daniel Hulkyard, that in fact, Dan was over 555 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: her shoulder when she was sending that message forty five 556 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: minutes later upstairs Daniel. We don't know if Rachel was there. 557 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: We might suspect, but we don't know for sure, But 558 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: that Daniel met Julie at the door, at Sam's door 559 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: twelve midnight and brought her inside and then she was killed. 560 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 1: So I just thought that was interesting because it's again 561 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: her lies and inconsistencies with her stories as well, having 562 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: Dan over her shoulder means they're in cahoots, right they right? 563 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: So does that call collusion? Another good Sea word? I 564 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: think we have one more we could come up with. 565 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that all of that plays apart, 566 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: and certainly she seems there's there's so many reasons to 567 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: believe that she was in on the planning. One of 568 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: the things that she had said to police that again 569 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: that morning, like Daniel was arrested May twenty six, Wednesday night, 570 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: and early that Thursday morning, they did bring Rachel in 571 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: and and one of the things she she said several 572 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: things that made you wonder about her involvement, one of 573 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 1: which was, you know, did you check into Sam's past, 574 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: because that's they were using that, right, it's a reason 575 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: for him to be really the bad guy. I mean, 576 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: here's the real reason why he's probably on the run 577 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: and did this, because he's been charged with murder before, right, right, 578 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: and so they she brought that up. And then she 579 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: also said that when Dan came back with the money, 580 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: I think he either gave it to Sam outside the 581 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: apartment or maybe it was one of the loan sharks 582 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: when she was sitting at the table when Dan gave 583 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: physically gave the money to Chris Williams. But she didn't 584 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: tell the police to cry about Chris Williams. She thought 585 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: Chris Williams would never crop up, and certainly she knew 586 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: at that point Sam was dead, so he couldn't he 587 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: couldn't he contradict what she said right to me, that's 588 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: one of the most telling statements that she was part 589 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: of the plan. Seeing Dan or you know, the way 590 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: I saw him from the phone calls and everything, that 591 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: he would have done anything. But I don't think that 592 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: he was somebody who had the strength or maybe the 593 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: intelligence to do it all by himself. He's never been 594 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: able to hold a job, not successful with relationships, was 595 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: willing to marry this woman, whom he had to know 596 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: at some level really didn't love him, but he was 597 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,439 Speaker 1: so dependent it was okay. But I just don't see 598 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,439 Speaker 1: him as a person who could have thought this all 599 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: out all by himself. And it's funny that you mentioned 600 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: that because one of my other interviews were with a 601 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: couple by the name of John and Kristen Spath. They 602 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: were the parents of a girl by the name of 603 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: Brittany Boudrey, who was Dan's girlfriend prior to Rachel and 604 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: the longest relationship he had almost two years. He was 605 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: part of their family. He went on holidays with them, 606 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: he went on cruises with them. In fact, the Wozniaks 607 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: would go on holidays with the Spath But as soon 608 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: as Marian Wosniak found out about Brittney's real age, she 609 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: cut all ties to the family. I guess she felt 610 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: like the difference in age because he was seventh older 611 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: than seventeen and she was still fifteen, and that just 612 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: freaked Maryann out. Of course, Daniel had lied about that, 613 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,479 Speaker 1: so she had known until that point the Spath didn't 614 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: understand why she all of a sudden like dropped them 615 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 1: like and was actually kind of rude to them socially 616 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: when they would see each other, and so that whole relationship. 617 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: While it ended because of Mary Anne, he still needed 618 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: them and wanted them, and he still felt as if 619 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: the Spa asked for his family. In fact, he felt 620 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: like John Speth was really more like his father figure. 621 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: He would call Kristen his mom, and John Spath is dead. 622 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 1: On the weekend of the murders, when the murders took place, 623 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: that's Sunday, Dan had gone down to see John Spath. 624 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: Kristen and her daughter were up. They were auditioning for 625 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: American Idol and she was doing really well. She was 626 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: getting through a couple of rounds. So John was by 627 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: himself and Dan said, why don't I come down. I'll 628 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: bring some stogies, will grill up some steaks, and so 629 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: he did, and he then John said it was just 630 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: the oddest conversation because he was telling me, I wish 631 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: I could be more like you. I'm terrible with confrontation, 632 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: even though I'm a big guy and people think I 633 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: can handle myself and protect myself I've always been controlled 634 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: by women, and I am wondering if I'm marrying the 635 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: wrong girl. You protect your family, you. I wish I 636 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: could be more like you, strong like you. And and 637 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: I said, John, you realize he was trying to confess 638 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: to you. It was it came close to he was. 639 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 1: It was just the oddest, strangest And I told him 640 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: that if he felt she was the wrong girl, And 641 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: if you're feeling that now, you know nobody's going to 642 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: care if you if you end it now, And I said, 643 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: I said to John that you know that was the 644 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: weekend of the murders. He was doing something. He was 645 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: doing what he was doing for for this love of 646 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 1: this empty person that he probably recognized was not too 647 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: good for him. At this point. It sure sounds that 648 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: way that he was. It sounds like they were already 649 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: planning these murders or at least the sam to get 650 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: the money. But it sounds like he was trying to 651 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: pull away from that because he knew it wasn't right. 652 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: And also Rachel found the sex tape. There was a 653 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: sex tape that that and it was with Brittany Boudre, 654 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: his form her girlfriend, and they had had sex and 655 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: it was filmed and dated during the time that Rachel 656 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: was already engaged to Dan. So when she found that, 657 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: she found that, and it was actually next to um 658 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: Darryl's gun because they had a safe in the apartment. 659 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: Dan and Rachel had a little, small, little safe and 660 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: the gun and the sex tape were in the safe, 661 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: and she had found and I would say if she 662 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: found the sex tape, she had to have found the 663 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: gutten right, I mean, so what what does that tell you? 664 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 1: That there's all of a sudden a gun in your house? 665 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: What's it doing there? And why is there this gun 666 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: cleaning kit on top of the safe? All these indications 667 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: probably were a good hint that there was some murdering 668 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: about going on. Happened, right, So anyway, she she found 669 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: this tape, and this this had happened just a few 670 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: weeks before the murders. So the whole idea of I'm 671 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: going to leave you was all of a sudden really 672 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: a subject that he had to convince her not to. 673 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: And so the way he convinced her not to leave 674 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: him was to say, look, I taped this because I 675 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,240 Speaker 1: was going to extort money from the family. I taped 676 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: it as a tool, as a weapon to get this 677 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 1: money out of them, And so she thought, oh okay, 678 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: like that was fine as long as you get money. 679 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: As long as you get money to take care of 680 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: me money honey. Yeah, yeah, exactly, because I want to 681 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: go on a cruise from my honeymoon. Yes, yes, I 682 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: don't love you all that much, but boy I could. 683 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: You're sure use a nice trip, nice cruise, right, even 684 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: if your penis is small. That's right, I'll make do. 685 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: There's always the captain. There's a follow up visit that 686 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: the Spaths had that I want to share with you 687 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: that happened after Dan was arrested and after he confessed 688 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 1: to the murders. Wait wait, wait you the spouse Spaths again, 689 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: the parents of Brittany, of the girl that when the 690 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 1: spouse Sorry, sorry, okay. So there's another follow up visit 691 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: that the Spaths had that I'd like to share with you. 692 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: That happened three days after Dan was arrested on a Wednesday. 693 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,919 Speaker 1: He confessed on a Thursday. By that Saturday, Rachel comes 694 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: knocking on their door on the Spath store with brother Noah, 695 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:19,839 Speaker 1: and she had about a fifth of vodka with her. 696 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: That was pretty well drunk literally in her hand. She's 697 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 1: bringing in the podka. So Kristen and Brittany, her daughter, 698 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: go out on the deck now again. Britney's the girl 699 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,359 Speaker 1: in the sex tape, right, the former girlfriend. She goes 700 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: out on the deck with Rachel, and Noah sits in 701 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: the little family room area off the kitchen with John Spath, 702 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: the father, right, and John says, you know, of all 703 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: the times we've spent with Dan, I mean, he was 704 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: like a son to us. We traveled with him, he 705 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: practically lived here at times, we never saw a violent person. 706 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: We never saw a man that would be capable of 707 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: this kind of crime, you know, this, these kind of 708 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: murderous murder and dismemberment. It was just it boggled their minds, right, 709 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: They said someone else had to be involved. He couldn't 710 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: have done this alone. And Noah brings out this corn 711 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 1: pipe and John said to me, it wasn't even lit. 712 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: It was just this silly old corn pipe, like like 713 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,479 Speaker 1: he was about to be Promphisorial, right, and said, oh, 714 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 1: I believe he's capable of it because we used to 715 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: sit around and play games about how we would kill 716 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: people and get away with it, and and you know, 717 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: that that that rental that they were in. I was 718 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 1: the co signer because he got they got evicted from 719 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: so many places their credit was pathetic that I had 720 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: to co sign. So he promised me. He said to me, 721 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: if he could get out four hundred dollars a day, 722 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: we would be fine and we would make the rent. Well. 723 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: When John told me that and John heard that, they 724 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: immediately called the authorities because they said, how would you 725 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: know these details about getting four hundred dollars a day? 726 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: Back then, you could only get four hundred dollars out 727 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 1: of your A t M per day. And that was 728 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: Dan's plan to get four hundred dollars a day out 729 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,399 Speaker 1: of Sam's account, using Wesley right to get it out. 730 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: And so the idea that they knew about these plans 731 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 1: and that they had talked about these games together about 732 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: killing people and then he knew that kind of a 733 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: detail really made John and Kristen feel that Dan was 734 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: not alone in this plan. Yeah, that's sort of continuing 735 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: on your on your theory as well, that you based 736 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: on what you've heard and seen that it seems like 737 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 1: Dan was not capable of planning this himself. I don't 738 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: think so. It doesn't appear that he had that much 739 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:43,280 Speaker 1: ability to think ahead about consequences, although he was smart 740 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: enough I guess to take the tools to the theater, 741 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: and that he picked up from Noah's house, that he 742 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: uh interesting interest with Tim in the car. Yeah, with 743 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: Tim in the car, And don't you think Tim might 744 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: have said, what are those four? Course he would have. 745 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: But don't forget he was the dude bringing the crystal 746 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: method like he he was part. He even said to 747 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: one of his high school friends, because this high school friend, 748 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: Bob Kristilla, who knew the WASNIAT there, you know, his 749 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: whole life, said if Dan is involved in drugs and 750 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: crystal meth, it's got your handprint all over it, Tim, 751 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: and I want to go down and talk to him. 752 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 1: And so Tim brought Bob down to Campton Martinique and 753 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: unfortunately he missed. Danny wasn't there at the time. But 754 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: Tim brought him around the apartment and said, by the way, 755 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 1: this is where I'm moving in. And Tim told Bob 756 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: he was moving into this walking closet. So he was 757 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 1: absolutely a huge part of their life, a huge part 758 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: of that weekend, and I could share more details, but 759 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,839 Speaker 1: Tim was involved in pretty much every step of that week, 760 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: in the murder weekend. Yeah, so, I mean, there's no 761 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: question Dan's taking the hit. He's taking it alone. And 762 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: the reason why I think he's not giving Rachel up 763 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: is because that's would be connected to revealing Tim's role. 764 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,839 Speaker 1: But it sure sounds like Tim had a role in it, 765 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: and that he had the weapons, and they he went 766 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: to the theater with Dan to drop all that stuff off, 767 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,359 Speaker 1: maybe helped him carry it up the stairs, because that 768 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 1: was a lot of stuff to carry up those stairs 769 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: into that addict. And then he turns out to have 770 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: the bag full of the dirty, bloody clothes. And then 771 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: there was a crate. There was a crate with like, 772 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, an axe, bloody axe and all these tools, 773 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,920 Speaker 1: bloody tools, and that crate for a very long time 774 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: was in their apartment. And Rachel said to police that 775 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,879 Speaker 1: morning that she was brought in and I talked about 776 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,359 Speaker 1: after Dan was arrested. She said, for like a long time, 777 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: she didn't want to go in the bedroom. She slept 778 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 1: on the couch in the living room because of the 779 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: crate sitting there. You could suppose that you think maybe 780 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: she suspected something, maybe a little I mean Sam's key 781 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: car keys were on the counter, his laptop was on 782 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 1: their little shelf in the living room. I mean Dan 783 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 1: was doing these texts on a flip phone, which was 784 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: a very archaic phone, versus the phone that Dan had, 785 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,359 Speaker 1: which was this new high tech phone that he had. 786 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 1: I mean, wouldn't you say whose phone is that? Who's 787 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: whose phone are you on? Absolutely tell us if there's 788 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: anything more that you'd like to share about your hypotheses 789 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: or if you wanted to talk about any kind of diagnosis. 790 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 1: Again that you have not ever met Dan, But what 791 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,320 Speaker 1: you suppose, well, I certainly see that he meets many 792 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: of the criteria for being an anti social personality. His 793 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: ability to steal, his ability to can other people, his 794 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 1: total lack of room morse, his long history of d 795 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:11,879 Speaker 1: U I s and conning and those all meet the 796 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:18,399 Speaker 1: criteria for antisocial. But then his high dependence upon this 797 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:24,759 Speaker 1: woman makes him also have different features of borderline. That 798 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 1: they have this horrible fear, persistent fear of being abandoned. 799 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,719 Speaker 1: They will do anything in order to keep the other 800 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,839 Speaker 1: person there dependent upon in their lives, and I think 801 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 1: in this situation even to kill so they cross any 802 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: socio barrier more morality wise or legally. They there is 803 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: no boundary and they don't learn from their mistakes. And 804 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:59,919 Speaker 1: that's certainly obvious with Dan that he continued to still 805 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:05,320 Speaker 1: people to consteal to steal. I mean they stole their food, 806 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,360 Speaker 1: their alcohol, they stole their furniture, they stole on almost 807 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,560 Speaker 1: a daily basis. I didn't pay their rent. I mean, 808 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: it's a very sociopathic on some level. I feel like 809 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: he was relieved when he got in jail because everything 810 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: was covered at that point. I have I had that 811 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: same fantasy that it was a relief to be away 812 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:33,719 Speaker 1: because he seemed to lack internal control. He needed external control, 813 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: and in the jail you have lots of external control. 814 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: But it doesn't sound like in his childhood and growing 815 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:48,440 Speaker 1: up with this overly controlling mother, he learned any internal control. 816 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,920 Speaker 1: And you mentioned about the family. You said that there 817 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: was a dynamic that you wondered about as far as 818 00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: the middle brother, Tim and his relationship and feelings towards Daniel. Well, 819 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:06,000 Speaker 1: it's hard when you are being the favorite child, the baby, 820 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,920 Speaker 1: and the child many years and then all of the 821 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: sudden to be usurped by a younger brother. And of 822 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 1: course mama doted on the younger, this brand new baby, 823 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: and now then Tim was old and kind of forgotten. 824 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,720 Speaker 1: So I'm sure there was a lot of rivalry between 825 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: the two men. So do you feel like that rivalry 826 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 1: could have instigated some kind of a setup of Dan, well, 827 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 1: of of Dan. I was thinking also the setup of 828 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:47,720 Speaker 1: Tim that Rachel was so eager, and I would guess 829 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,800 Speaker 1: that was Dan and Rachel so eager to involve Tim 830 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: and giving him the bloody package of evidence, the evidence 831 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,799 Speaker 1: and the instruments. Yes, and as the prosecutor called it, 832 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: the cornucopia of benovidence. Yes, perfect and so, and then 833 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:11,359 Speaker 1: her being very eager to tell the detective, oh, yes, 834 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,319 Speaker 1: Tim has evidence. And so it seemed to me that 835 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,120 Speaker 1: it was the other way around, that it was she 836 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: and Dan who set Tim up. You know, Tim, I've 837 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,880 Speaker 1: heard the prosecutor say it was just another victim of 838 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,360 Speaker 1: Dan Wozniak, like Sam and Julie, and it really ruffled 839 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 1: me because it couldn't be farther from the truth. But 840 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: they did not go after him. And the reason they 841 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,759 Speaker 1: didn't go after him was because the prosecutor was concerned 842 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: about the defense attorney coming up with a mental illness argument. 843 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,399 Speaker 1: And I'm wanted to ask you when you heard Dan 844 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 1: on those calls saying he was starting to hear voices 845 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,320 Speaker 1: and he's crazy, and he oh, he's crazy. When Rachel 846 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,719 Speaker 1: starts yelling at him, telling him he's crazy and that 847 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,560 Speaker 1: he should be in a mental institution, do you feel, 848 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,759 Speaker 1: based on what you heard, that that would have been 849 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,359 Speaker 1: a legitimate legal argument, because from what I heard from 850 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 1: the defense attorney that in no way would he have 851 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: been able to present a mental illness argument that legally 852 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,760 Speaker 1: he didn't meet that criteria. I'd love to know your opinion. 853 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,600 Speaker 1: I don't believe he meant the criteria either. Um he 854 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 1: and I think the whole thing about he heard voices 855 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:42,080 Speaker 1: reminded me of kin Bianchi trying to the Hillside Strangler, 856 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,439 Speaker 1: of his trying to get away with it, saying he 857 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 1: was a multiple personality. And I had the same feeling 858 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: about Dan that he and Rachel have kind of concocted 859 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,640 Speaker 1: this thing all of a sudden in the phone calls, 860 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: she said, well, you're crazy, you know, and and then 861 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,720 Speaker 1: his saying to her, well, what do you think, Rachel? 862 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,120 Speaker 1: Should I go for try to get in the middle 863 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,279 Speaker 1: hospital or should I go to jail like he can 864 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,319 Speaker 1: check a box or prison. It doesn't work, doesn't have 865 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,600 Speaker 1: to work, be more crazy. So I can certainly understand 866 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: why the defense attorney didn't try for that. He no, 867 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 1: So therefore then there really was no reason to give 868 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,480 Speaker 1: Tim a plea deal. It was just this, this need this, 869 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, prosecute at all costs for for the capital 870 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:41,080 Speaker 1: case that this prosecutor wanted and needed that he that 871 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,839 Speaker 1: he offered that, and which is which is really unfortunate 872 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 1: because based on my interviews and research and knowledge of 873 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: Tim's role, he should not have been offered anything. Well, 874 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,480 Speaker 1: and the other thing is Dan was a tall man, 875 00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:02,520 Speaker 1: wasn't me and well built ken. Can you visualize he 876 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,399 Speaker 1: all by himself carrying all those body parts down that 877 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,760 Speaker 1: skinny little uh ladder that went up into the attic 878 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:16,440 Speaker 1: in the theater. I can't. I can't imagine either thing 879 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: him getting the tools up there all by himself, or 880 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:25,040 Speaker 1: he is getting the body parts down all by himself. Well, 881 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,960 Speaker 1: that's another thing. From what I gathered, Dan didn't realize 882 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,880 Speaker 1: Sam was Sam was a meaty guy. He was a stocky, 883 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,120 Speaker 1: well built guy. And from what I understand from Tim, 884 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,680 Speaker 1: the tools were ridiculous. They were just not the appropriate 885 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,160 Speaker 1: tools for the dismemberment. They were poor quality. And so 886 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:47,239 Speaker 1: the struggle was that he or they, depending on on 887 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,319 Speaker 1: what theory you look at, uh couldn't cut up the 888 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,279 Speaker 1: body to the extent they had to leave most of 889 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,160 Speaker 1: the body there. And and allegedly one of the theories 890 00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,400 Speaker 1: was that he was going to take the body parts 891 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,560 Speaker 1: and throw them in this incinerator that was in the 892 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,040 Speaker 1: medical hospital right behind the theater, because as you know, 893 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,239 Speaker 1: the Joint Forces Base was a military base, and there 894 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,440 Speaker 1: was a military hospital with a crematorium and an incinerator, 895 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,960 Speaker 1: and Jeff Hathcock had given Dan a tour of it, 896 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,520 Speaker 1: so he knew it was there. Because Dan had this 897 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,960 Speaker 1: fascination with the maccabb He loved Halloween. He would go 898 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,719 Speaker 1: up in the attic of the theater and scare the 899 00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,240 Speaker 1: kids when they were rehearsing on stage at the theater. 900 00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,520 Speaker 1: He actually did sort of live out this real life 901 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,080 Speaker 1: Phantom of the opera, right, which is what I've said 902 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,840 Speaker 1: about this case. And so the idea that he was 903 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,760 Speaker 1: maybe thinking of burning the body, which is a theory 904 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,399 Speaker 1: I have based on a conversation I had with her 905 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:51,680 Speaker 1: boyfriend after subsequent to Dan, who she confessed that too, 906 00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: that I had told him to burn the body. Her 907 00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,920 Speaker 1: her Rachel Rachel, Her Rachel Rachel had it was in 908 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,319 Speaker 1: a drunken stupor, but she all of a sudden, out 909 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,160 Speaker 1: of the blue, like starts gets She had her head 910 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:06,759 Speaker 1: on his lap. He was driving home from they were 911 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,319 Speaker 1: they had performed in this karaoke bar whatever, and they 912 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,360 Speaker 1: were driving home and she kind of took up her 913 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,360 Speaker 1: hand and like started pounding on his chest, and she said, 914 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,920 Speaker 1: I told you to burn the body. I told you 915 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,640 Speaker 1: to She said at once, I told you to burn 916 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,040 Speaker 1: the body. And he said it was like he was 917 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 1: frozen in time. He said, it was clear that she 918 00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,759 Speaker 1: thought he was Dan, and so he shared that with me. 919 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure and and and Rachel and Dan were at 920 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,040 Speaker 1: the theater two nights before the murder. And I have 921 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,600 Speaker 1: witnesses telling me confirming that. And it was so odd. 922 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: Why were they there. They had no reason to be there. 923 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,920 Speaker 1: They weren't in the show that they were rehearsing at 924 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,040 Speaker 1: the time. So all of these details sort of loose 925 00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:51,200 Speaker 1: the ends, lots of luce, the ends that we're hopefully 926 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,840 Speaker 1: tying up at the end of this podcast, well, I 927 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,200 Speaker 1: want to thank you so much for being here today 928 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,560 Speaker 1: on Sleuth, thank you for having me, and thank you 929 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:15,560 Speaker 1: for sure. Next time on Sleuth, we're going to surprise 930 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 1: you with a guest who I like to call my 931 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 1: deep throat. She's come forward since Sleuth has been published, 932 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 1: with revelations that will astonish you more than any other 933 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:29,920 Speaker 1: episode you've heard to date. After three years of digging 934 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:33,960 Speaker 1: and sleuthing on this case, we are finally able to 935 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:38,520 Speaker 1: reveal the definitive pieces of this murderous puzzle. You will 936 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:43,360 Speaker 1: not want to miss a single minute. If you enjoyed 937 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 1: this episode of Sleuth, share it with a friend and 938 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 1: be sure to leave a rating or review. Follow Sleuth 939 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,280 Speaker 1: on I Heart Radio, or subscribe wherever you listen to 940 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,000 Speaker 1: podcasts so that you never miss an episode