1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and This is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: today's best minds and Elon Musk's own AI labels him 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: one of the most significant spreaders of misinformation on X 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson stops by to talk about the fantasy land 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that we're in now. Then we'll talk to Randy Weingarten, 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: president of the American Federation of Teachers. He's going to 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: give us her reaction to Donald Trump's attack on America's 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: education system. We don't have news today because it's just 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: too much snakes and we needed to take a tiny break. 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: We will be back on Monday with lots of news 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: and lots of fuckory, and sometimes we just have to 13 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,319 Speaker 1: take a tiny break. So we love you guys, and 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: we know how hard this is, and we hope that 15 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: you'll spend the weekend watching movies and eating cookies and 16 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: trying to regroup because January is coming. Kurt Anderson is 17 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,279 Speaker 1: the author of Evil Geniuses and the co creator of Commandsy. Kurt, 18 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today. You know, 19 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: there was only one person who I wanted to talk 20 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: to about the fantasy land that we now live in 21 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: and that was Kurt Anderson. So true. 22 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: Hi, Mollie, it's so good to be here. 23 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry Court Anderson for asking you to record so 24 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: early in the morning, but I'm going to Washington, so 25 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: I had to get you when I could get you. 26 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: Well, you know, it was of all the weeks and 27 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: all the special day periods, this one seemed up my alley. 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: So thank you for seeing. I'm a chronicler of madness. 29 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, as an author of a book called Fantasy Lane, 30 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: and the fact that we are now across the rubicon 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: into what is going to be four years of at 32 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: best fantasy Land and at worst dystopia Land, which would 33 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: just technically be dystopia. 34 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 2: Well, and my other book that's kind of a companion 35 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: to it, of course, is called Evil Geniuses. So you 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: got your Fantasy Land and you got your Evil Geniuses in. 37 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: The What's so interesting to me about round two of 38 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: this is that we have all of this sort of 39 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: earnestness of Round one, where we were like, these are institutions, 40 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: this cannot happen, is gone, and now we have gone 41 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: full into this sort of nihilism that is the nineteen nineties. 42 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I don't know if it's the nineteen nineties. What 43 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 2: I realized actually thinking about this the last boy for 44 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: hours is that it's the forty seven ad to an 45 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: extreme degree. I mean, people in the past, I think 46 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: it said, oh, Trump is like Nero. Trump is like Caligula, 47 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: the Caligula thing, where these appointments of Tulca Gabbard and 48 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 2: Matt Gates and Pete tag Seth, it's just so beyond. 49 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: I mean, the first national security people he announced were 50 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: just you know, second tier conservative Republicans, quasi ormy, okay, 51 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 2: like let's soften everybody up. And lots of friends of 52 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: mine said, oh, this is kind of reassuring. This is 53 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: not bad, right. 54 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: Democracy will not end with Marco Rubio appointment. 55 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: Let's not forget Robert F. Kennedy junior my freshman year 56 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 2: in college. Drug dealer, a coped dealer. But Trump has 57 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 2: been successful because he's not like a conventional politician. From 58 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: the beginning, he's anti establishment to the max. Well, this 59 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: is not anti establishment in the way that I don't 60 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: know John Fetterman is or Bernie Sanders is or those 61 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: kinds of people. It is mocking all expertise and experience 62 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: and judgment and seriousness and virtue and making a travesty 63 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: of it and saying it doesn't matter, and saying you're 64 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: all full of shit, you people who actually have careers 65 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: and know things, and if any things, this is I mean, 66 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: if anybody's ever seen the various movies John Herger, other 67 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: actors playing Calicula, he was this this corrupt, unstable, cruel, 68 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: extravagant sexual freak and love spectacle. And he was mister 69 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: Gladiator and probably nuts and you had to worship him, 70 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 2: and at least allegedly at least joked about making his 71 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: horse a senator. It was he going to be as 72 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: good as senator as you, and made the senators Roman 73 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 2: senators grovel literally grovel, didn't kiss his feet. So here 74 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 2: we are. 75 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 3: Man. 76 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: You got a literary, metaphorical thing. It's it. 77 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: Well, you know what I was so struck by is 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: that in twenty sixteen, right Republicans refused to stand up 79 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: to Trump. They felt they didn't need to, or they 80 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: didn't want to, or you know, it wasn't worth. The 81 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: calculus was like, I don't want death threats, I don't 82 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: want to be booed at the airport. I just want to, 83 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: like tow the line and not to make my life difficult. 84 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: And even like Mitch McConnell, could have ended this whole 85 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: thing by saying to Republicans that they could vote to 86 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: convict Dan Trump would have been ineligible to run for 87 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: president again, and that would have been done complete. But instead, 88 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: here we are. There are four seats that Democrats would 89 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: need to swing to tank any of these nominations. Trump really, 90 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: I think, has made many overtures that he would like 91 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: to make these reciss appointments. I'm not sure if he'll 92 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: be able to, but maybe he will. You know, if 93 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: I've learned anything, it's underestimate Trump at your own peril. 94 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 2: Right, No, absolutely, And you know, and we look for 95 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: these gloomers of hope. Well it's John Foon instead of 96 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: somebody worse as the Senate majority leader. So maybe he's 97 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 2: more of an institutionalist than a normal fellow. Maybe he'll 98 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: do the right thing. We'll see, Yeah, betting on the 99 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 2: Republicans electeds in Washington doing the right thing obviously ausing bet, yes, 100 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: has not. 101 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: I've been fruitful. 102 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: Freight ear well, see I did get pleasure and not 103 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: just shutting freud, but like, okay, when the various senators, 104 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: especially Republican senators as well as Republican House members, came 105 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: out about Matt Gates just saying, are you fucking kidding me? 106 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 2: This guy is this ex trafficker? This guy can't be 107 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: you know. So there is more at this Roseveldt date, 108 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: and with these extreme egregious human nominations, some at least 109 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: rhetorical emission of the truth of the horror of this 110 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: idiocracy animal house unqualified madness that he's proposing. 111 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: Idiocracy is a really good word for what we're about 112 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: to embark on if we talk about the Senate and 113 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: the House too, But it's not quite the same. The 114 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: Senate built on the idea that these people, at least 115 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: the thing that they are these moral pillars. 116 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 4: Right. 117 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: The thing about the Senate is it's a lot of 118 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: work to get there and quite a bit of work 119 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: to stay there. It would be easier just to go 120 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: into investment banking. So these people have kept these jobs 121 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: because on some level or not, maybe hypocritically whatever, but 122 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: they think they care about American government. So here we 123 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: are now in a moment where it doesn't matter, right, 124 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: these people have to pretend that this is normal or 125 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: something else. 126 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: Well, yes, that is the thing. And of course the 127 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: Senate has always been. It was in the Constitution, was 128 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: as the framers were framing it, talked about the center 129 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: versus the house as being this place that would you know, 130 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: cool the tea cup of the house, where it was 131 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: all nutty and crazy, all and hot all the time. 132 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: That was this the thing. And of course the US 133 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: Senate and therefore senators are all about this. We are 134 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: the dignified people in Washington. We look down on the House, 135 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: and so occasionally, like now and in the last eight years, 136 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: that dignity has called to be more than just how 137 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: they act and look and dress. And yeah, Mitt Romney, 138 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: you look, you'll identify your central casting. But like dudes, 139 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: now's the time to really hump, try to do the 140 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: right thing and not let this go into this decadent 141 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: imperial rome thing that he's he's really trying to take 142 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: us to. No, we'll see. You know, you only need 143 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: Susan Collins again, betting on Susan Colly as well, or Rakowski. 144 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: You need you say four, I guess you need four 145 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: people to say no, I'm not doing this. 146 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: Cornyan, maybe Langford, maybe Mitch McConnell. Maybe I mean, well. 147 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: Mis McConnell is retiring in two years and is gone, 148 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 2: Like yeah, okay, it's time to atone a little bit guy. 149 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: And don't sleep on Tom Taylus because Tom Taylus is 150 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: in a rapidly purple in state. But again, like this 151 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: is such wish casting. Like even in twenty sixteen, like 152 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: if we just step back from minut in twenty sixteen, 153 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: you had some Republicans who were actually less insane and 154 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: they were chased out of the party. And again, insane 155 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: is relative, but they had more of a sort of 156 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: sense of what all, you know what. The previous generation 157 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: had a certain like traditionalism. So I'm talking about Jeff 158 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: Blake or you know. But again, it's hard for me 159 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: to imagine that it's hard to imagine that this ends 160 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: up being Okay. 161 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: No, I hear you, And I again, I'm not going 162 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: to be the you know, my habitual temperamental fifty one percentist, 163 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: which I've all that is the thing, like okay, barely optimist. Okay, 164 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 2: it doesn't necessarily work, and I you know, you don't 165 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 2: want to be Charlie Brown and is having the ball 166 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: kicked out, having a your. 167 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: But you also want you can't give up, and you 168 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: can't give into despair. 169 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: No exactly. Again, my hopeful view perhaps is that, yeah, 170 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: the Jeff flakes at all have been kicked out. I 171 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 2: mean think did not entirely capitulate for a year, right, 172 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 2: I mean it wasn't just immediately on in January twenty seventeen. Okay, 173 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: whatever the guy says, I'll do, I'll suck whatever is required. 174 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: So we'll see it is eight years later and they 175 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 2: do know him no longer like wow, this guy won, 176 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 2: I got whoh oh, So that they are aware, and 177 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: some of them are leaving soon, some of all of 178 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: them in six years. So he is not yet going 179 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: to be called a lame duck, that is to say, 180 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 2: Donald Trump. And you can come back and say, well, 181 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: he may try to serve another term, let's leave that aside. 182 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 2: He's gonna be a lame duck. He's gonna be out 183 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: of there in four years, and in certainly in two years, 184 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 2: people are going to start calling him lame duck. And 185 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: here we are less than two weeks after the election, 186 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: and the clown train is already going toward the cliff 187 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: who We're barely there. So if this is a preface 188 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: foreshadowing of what the administration going to be like. There's 189 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: no reason to think it isn't this is not going 190 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: to go well, and all these things that we thought, 191 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: I mean, the story of thing phenomenon is, oh, this 192 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: is going to kill him. Oh he said this about McCain. 193 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 2: All's Oh this pen never does it never does. But 194 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: we'll see if enough of them have enough courage to 195 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: do this very very simple and obvious. I think in 196 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 2: these three or four worst appointments, for instance, just for starters. 197 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: Right, I mean I would also add, you know, for 198 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: the people who are listening, who are like me, do 199 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: not despair. Right. The federal government is an enormous entity. 200 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: It has never been known for changing quickly. 201 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 3: You know. 202 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: My one bright spot here, believe it or not, is 203 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: that these three appointments are so crazy because he is 204 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: signaling that nothing here is going to be normal. Give 205 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: me this thought experiment for a minute. Okay, if Trump 206 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: had nominated Marco Rubio and then more normal Republicans but 207 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: then quietly bullied them into doing insane things, it would 208 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: have been much much harder to make the case that 209 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: this stuff was insane. Like RFK junior taking over ATSs, Like, 210 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,479 Speaker 1: this is a person who does not believe in vaccines. 211 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: Now he's taking over government science, right, Like this is 212 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: going to be a thing that is very clearly what 213 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: it is and not you know, like I go back 214 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: to Justice Roberts. Right, Roberts cuts away at things in 215 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: order to undermine them. Right, he says, you know, he 216 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: undermines Citizens United, he undermines Roe v. Wade, he undermines 217 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: you know, ultimately ends up. You can give as much 218 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: money as you want to candidates, you know, so we 219 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: have billion dollar presidential campaigns, and also we have Roe v. 220 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: Wade eventually gets overturned. So that kind of stuff is 221 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: much harder to explain to the American people than stuff 222 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: like this guy doesn't believe in vaccines and now he's 223 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: running government science. 224 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 2: No, one hundred percent. And of course that is because 225 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: several reasons, I mean, less consequentially is he likes the 226 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: show he Donald Trump, So this is going to control 227 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: the world. They're going to let's do it walls. There's that, 228 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 2: but it's also really it is like Caligula saying to 229 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 2: the center is no, literally, lick my feet, get down there, 230 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: lick my feet. It's so much about that. And like 231 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: Bobby Kennedy, who I have known for you know, fifty 232 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: years and followed and written about for ten about his 233 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: descent into conspiracy theory and vaccines are evil all that, 234 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: I'll move on from him. But he has said many times, 235 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: as he was being the anti vaccine guy the last 236 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: twenty five years, that people like the Fauci's, the leading pediatricians, 237 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 2: the leading vaccinologists, immunologists in America, should be behind bar 238 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: and he said that's not hyperble, I mean it. They 239 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: should be in throw away the keys, talking like Trump, 240 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: you know, long before Trump was around as a president. 241 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: And then last year, of course he says COVID nineteen 242 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: was targeted to attack black people and Caucasians and that ALEXH. Konazzi, 243 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 2: Jews and Chinese are are immute. This guy really making 244 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: in charge of this shit anyway. The other thing I 245 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: realized this week is the just brilliant, enduring truth of 246 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: the maybe the two most famous lines as well that 247 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: came out as he was running for president before he 248 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: was president. But one is, of course, when you're a star, 249 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: they let you do it. Well, he's showing that again. 250 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: I'm a star, they let me do it. I can 251 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: appoint Tulca Gabbert and Matt Gates and Pete Hegzeth and 252 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: Bobby Kennedy to these jobs, these important crucial jobs in 253 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: the American government, for which they are obviously and plainly 254 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: not qualified, And I can stay in the middle of 255 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: fifth I don't shoot somebody, and I wouldn't get loser 256 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 2: the voters. It's well, he says, So these are the 257 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: explanatory things, and he is never I mean again and 258 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: again we say yep, uh huh, yep. This is a new, 259 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: next level version of that. 260 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: No exactly, and I think that is ultimately how we 261 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: got here, right. I've been thinking a lot about like 262 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: what I got wrong, you know, when I was like, 263 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: she's gonna win with a mandate. One of the things 264 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: that I think I got so wrong was this idea 265 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: like Trump, he spends one hundred and eighty percent of 266 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: his time doing pr right, so he's outward facing, he's 267 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: doing interviews. Again, he's saying insane stuff, but it doesn't 268 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: necessarily matter. And then Democrats elect a guy who does 269 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: almost no interviews for whom boringness is the defense, and 270 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: then he is unable to get coverage for all of 271 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: the really I think great accomplishments of his administration. It 272 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: just was sort of a snowball, like if you're going 273 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: to run against Trump and again, hopefully Trump decides that 274 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: his second term is the end of it and that 275 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: he does not try to run for a third term, 276 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: which you could certainly see him trying to do. I 277 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: hate that I just said that, but you know that 278 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: I'm really I mean, I hate that, but I do 279 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: think Democrats right now have to start messaging members of Congress, 280 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: senators need to get on. You know. Part of the 281 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: only thing left that standing between us and total autocracy 282 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: is these Democrats who don't have control of the federal government, 283 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: but do have the ability to go on. 284 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: Joe Rogan, Yes, exactly. Well, and the thing about, as 285 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: you starkily put it, and it's true about Biden and 286 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: the Democratic generally, the Democratic machines, for whatever sort of reasons, 287 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: ineffectiveness at getting out look at what we've done. Look 288 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: how great this is, as opposed to him being the 289 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: news and doing whatever it takes to be you know, 290 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: the story every day. It is the problem or one 291 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 2: of the problems of how we've been and how especially. 292 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: I mean, maybe maybe it will change it, Maybe that 293 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 2: will change now because of the results of the selection 294 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: that you understand. You have to be a friend. My 295 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: brilliant wife, Van Kramer, when Biden actually became president four 296 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: years ago, wrote a brilliant long memo to a good 297 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: friend of ours who had been in the Obama administration 298 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: in a very very high, you know, deputy cabinet position, saying, 299 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: here's what they have to do. Trump knows how to 300 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: make a show. We're not saying just you know, do 301 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: crazy stuff, but like, here's some ways. You know, she 302 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 2: was in television, no show business, and he said, yeah, 303 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 2: this is brilliant, this is great. They're never going to 304 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: do anything like this because they're basically still living in 305 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties as though it's normal town. 306 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: Right. 307 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: That's one of the things that they have to figure 308 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 2: out and get right, and maybe maybe now they will. 309 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: The other thing you mentioned mandate is your mistakenness about 310 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,719 Speaker 2: that Kama Harris will be elected with the mandate. And 311 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: you know, as I say about so many things, it 312 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 2: was pretty to think. So the hyperbole of describing Trump's 313 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: win lass to be ratchet out. He got it out 314 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: of control. Yes, it's Donald Trump being lenched again. Oh 315 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 2: my god. Sure. But in terms of historical margins of victory, 316 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 2: which is his is now in the popular vote, or 317 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: as we would call it any other country, the vote, 318 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: it's one and a half percent and drop it. We'll 319 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: see when the final million and a half votes in 320 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: California how that goes. But where is that in the 321 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 2: rank of all presidents who've ever won the popular vote, 322 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: of whom they're fifty five, number fifty. That's where it is, 323 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: number fifty to fifty five. Even in the electoral college margin, 324 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: where of course Republicans including him are get this kick 325 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: you know, this bonus still low. It's still in the 326 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: lowest quarter of those ever. So it ate a landslide. 327 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: It's bad, and he's bad and all that. I'm not no, 328 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 2: but it's not a mandate. It's just important not to 329 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: get that into our heads that, oh the Americans oken 330 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: in this is it? No, it's two percent? You know, No. 331 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: I agree, And that's a really good point, and I 332 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: really appreciate you saying that, probably the most important point 333 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: we have going for us part Anderson, if we don't 334 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: get sent to Gitmo, will you please come back on 335 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: my podcast. 336 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: Well, whenever I have enough of a head of steam 337 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 2: and things and do nothing doins me more than getting 338 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: up at five point thirty in the morning, coming on. 339 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: You're sorry, by the way, let the record show we 340 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: started at eight o'clock. 341 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: Well Pacific time, though, even though I'm in New York. 342 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, you're right, you're at five am Pacific. 343 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: I'm always delighted. And no, it's good for me because 344 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: then I can have a whole work day now and 345 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: instead of having coffee, I talk to you. 346 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: Yes, all right, it's you and Lawrence are not early 347 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: morning people. But let the record show I have pen 348 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: up since six am. I really appreciate you. Thank you, 349 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson. Please come back soon. 350 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: My pleasure. 351 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: Randy Winingarten is the president of the American Federation of Teachers. 352 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 4: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Randy Winmarten. 353 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 3: How are you holding up, my dear Mollie. 354 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: I am in a. 355 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 4: Period of quiet reflection or because it's me, loud reflection 356 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 4: where I'm trying to figure out what I got wrong 357 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 4: and try to figure out how to make sense of 358 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 4: the stuff that I got wrong, learn from what you 359 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 4: know my blind spots were, and just take as much 360 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 4: information as possible. 361 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 3: What about you, I'm doing the same thing. I mean, 362 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 3: I was hoping against hope that Harris would win, but 363 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 3: in diving into all of what happened, this was my fear. 364 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 3: I want to make sure that we learned the right 365 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 3: lessons out of it, as opposed to the finger pointing 366 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 3: and the recriminations that one is seen. And I do 367 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 3: feel like there's a lot of lessons learned that would 368 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 3: actually be helpful not only in saving and then strengthening 369 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 3: our democracy, but also in listening to what people were 370 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 3: actually saying about their lives. And I think it is 371 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 3: both a clarion call for not only both political parties, 372 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: but for the civic leadership, the business leadership in the 373 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: country and in the world about what work and families 374 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 3: really need. And obviously I don't feel great about the 375 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 3: results and about the chaos and everything that's about to 376 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 3: happen to people and people's rights, but I do think 377 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 3: that there is more and more and more. I am 378 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 3: starting to see a through line that actually can be 379 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 3: explained by a couple of the economic charts that I 380 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 3: have seen in the last few days, including two of them. 381 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 5: One was the Steve Ratner chart that he did in 382 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 5: warning Joe you may have been on at the time. 383 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 5: And the other is a chart that I think I 384 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 5: saw from EPI or from Robert Rechent, not quite sure 385 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 5: what the sources anymore. That chart basically said that the 386 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 5: people who earned the least in this country voted for 387 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 5: Donald Trump. And then the second chart, which I thought 388 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 5: was equally both heartbreaking but also as instructive, is that 389 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 5: people no longer make more more than their parents made. 390 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 5: The promise of America, you know, has always been an 391 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 5: economic one, much more than almost anything else. You know, 392 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 5: It's been about freedom, but it's really been that. You know, 393 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 5: you think America is going to be a country that 394 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 5: has such great economic engines that every succeeding generation is 395 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 5: going to do better than the one before it. And 396 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 5: that promise has been broken. And I think that that frankly, 397 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,959 Speaker 5: the first party that actually is going to be able 398 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 5: to both get fairness and growth, right, you know, economic 399 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 5: fairness and economic growth. 400 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 3: Right. There's a race between that success and whether or not, 401 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 3: you know, we will have authoritarianism. 402 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 4: I hear what you're saying, and it's super interesting. The 403 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 4: thing I might, yes and you is I just want to, 404 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 4: like bap up to the beginning of your answer, which was, 405 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 4: I agree that. 406 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: It's such an early moment, like less than two weeks 407 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: from this election. 408 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 4: So what I would say is, in my mind, it's 409 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 4: not time for recrimination, but more like time for sort 410 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 4: of taking stock of where we are and you know 411 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 4: where we're going, and I think that is super important. 412 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 4: And also just like there are so many lessons to 413 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 4: be learned, like Harris lost, right, but she did in 414 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 4: fact deliver senate candidate. It's down ballot in almost every 415 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 4: single one of these swing states, with the exception of 416 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 4: maybe Pennsylvania, though it's now gone to recount. My question 417 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 4: is sort of like I understand the hand ringing, but 418 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 4: I wonder how much And again you've been doing this 419 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 4: longer than I have, but I just wonder how much 420 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 4: of it was a Trump brand being uniquely powerful, because 421 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 4: remember they haven't been able to recreate this in any 422 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 4: which way, versus is a Democratic brand being uniquely not powerful. 423 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 3: I fanger you all the time, Molly. 424 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 5: So I read a lot of what you do and 425 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 5: think a lot about what you say, but I found 426 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 5: your article in terms of kind of like reflecting on 427 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 5: this uniquely incisive because I think you. 428 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 3: Recognized in there the unique brand that Donald Trump brings. 429 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 3: I mean, there's a lot of you know, I may 430 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 3: say a few things that are really really really really 431 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: really controversial because it kind of puts some of the 432 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 3: normal thinking, you know, turns it on its head. But 433 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 3: I do. So let me just start by saying Donald 434 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: Trump got his experience not only as a real estate 435 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 3: developer in New York, which is a tough town in 436 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 3: which to be successful, even if you start with a 437 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 3: silver spoon in your mouth, which he did, and he 438 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 3: early on was able to do things like withstand discrimination 439 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 3: complaints and other kinds of things, you know, and he 440 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 3: was often the talk of the town in New York 441 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 3: regardless of all of that stuff. But what he did 442 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 3: which was uniquely different than probably any other candidate, but 443 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 3: Ronald Reagan. He's an actor, and he learned how to 444 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 3: use those skills that he developed on the Apprentice. And 445 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: one may agree or disagree with him, but he became 446 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 3: one of the most effective communicators in our generation, maybe 447 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 3: in a century. And at the same time he's learned 448 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 3: how to master or he's worked with the tech industry 449 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 3: in such a way that they have developed new forms 450 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 3: of communication in some ways. Kennedy and television, Hitler and radio. 451 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 3: He's learned how to do this. 452 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, here's what I want to ask you. You are 453 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 4: very much in his crosshairs. He is going war with 454 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 4: public education. You are the head of the teachers union, 455 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 4: you are an icon of public education. 456 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: How does this work? 457 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 6: I giggle a little bit because public education has been 458 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 6: in the crosshairs of the established marketeers and top down 459 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 6: ideologues or trickle down ideologues forever, but. 460 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 3: Not from the members of the Republican Party and not 461 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 3: from the people on the ground, which is part of 462 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 3: the reason why they have to create culture wars. I 463 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 3: go back to I invoke what Chris Ruffo said a 464 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 3: while ago at Hillsdale College. I know that, you know, 465 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 3: people don't know that name, but he made sure we 466 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 3: knew what their strategy was, which was their strategy was 467 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 3: and is to create universal distrust in public schools so 468 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 3: that they can essentially balkanized and basically end the public 469 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 3: schooling as we know it. And they've done that to 470 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 3: try to create vouchers, which was now defeated in three 471 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 3: essentially red states. So I think that the answer to 472 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: this is understanding the landscape is really important. But at 473 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: the end of the day, the real question is going 474 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 3: to be this, If you really represent the public that 475 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 3: elected you, then you will care about strengthening public schools, 476 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,479 Speaker 3: and you'll care about creating as many opportunities for people 477 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 3: to join labor unions and to actually engage in collective 478 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 3: bargaining and to actually lift wages as possible. If you 479 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 3: really care about the people of America, that's what you're 480 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 3: going to do. And so that's going to be where 481 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 3: we lean into how do we help kids have the 482 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 3: opportunities that you know, we every single day say they 483 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 3: so richly deserve. How do we help working families have 484 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 3: the opportunities to get ahead? And so I think what 485 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 3: you've seen in the last two years is that when 486 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 3: we've called that question and when we've actually not only 487 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 3: did the advocacy for it, but we've been on the 488 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 3: ground giving out books as other people banned them, We've 489 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 3: been on the ground really trying to create these ladders 490 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 3: of opportunity or pathways from classroom to career, like in 491 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 3: advanced manufacturing. That's what people really want, that's what they 492 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 3: want for their families. We're going to try to do 493 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 3: more and more of that, and hopefully it's not going 494 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: to be a big choice. It's not going to be 495 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: a big contrast. Maybe this is what they're going to do, 496 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: but if not, that's what we're going to do. And 497 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 3: you know, I suspect just like we saw in Kentucky 498 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 3: and Nebraska and Colorado when people voted not to defund 499 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 3: their public schools. I suspect when we saw across the country. 500 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at all the down ballot 501 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 3: races across the country, seventy to eighty percent of the 502 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 3: pro public education candidate in Minnesona won their races. Twenty 503 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 3: one or twenty three out of the twenty five levees 504 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 3: in Florida for public schools, one North Dakota refuse to 505 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 3: give up their property tax to defund their state. So 506 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,479 Speaker 3: the real issue becomes, how do we every day not 507 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 3: make this election to election, but how do we every 508 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 3: day work with the coalition of people who really do 509 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 3: want a better life for themselves than their kids, And 510 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 3: how do we do that and how does that force 511 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 3: then become a force in elections that doesn't get scared 512 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 3: or anxious by you know, a commercial that's intended to 513 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 3: scare or create anxiety, but where they're really working for 514 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 3: that latter of opportunity for themselves and others. And that's 515 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 3: what I'm going to do, and that's what my members 516 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: are going to do, and that's what our leaders are 517 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 3: going to do. 518 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 4: But what about like, for example, the Department of Education, 519 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 4: Like that is a hot. 520 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 3: I'm laughing because I'm going to surprise you and my answer, 521 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: which is this, in nineteen seventy seven, my predecessor, as 522 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 3: you know, Al Schanker, was not my immediate processor, although 523 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 3: I knew him pretty well he was. But Al Schanker 524 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,479 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy seven and the AFT in nineteen seventy 525 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 3: seven actually oppose the creation of the Department of Education. 526 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 3: We actually believed that the Department of Education should stay 527 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 3: in h EW because we thought we needed to actually 528 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: deal with whole children and whole families and not pull 529 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 3: education out, but really do it all together. And so 530 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 3: the issue for us is not the symbolism of all 531 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 3: of this stuff. The issue and obviously we care about 532 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 3: the people who work at the Department of Education, We 533 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 3: care about the families that work there. We don't want 534 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 3: people fired But the issue really is what happens to. 535 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: What they do? 536 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 3: Like what they do is they actually send to states 537 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 3: a lot of money. Ten percent of school district's budgets, 538 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 3: particularly for poor kids and kids with disabilities, come from 539 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: funds that they meet out. The real you is, let's 540 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 3: stop talking about form over. You know who's going to 541 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 3: get things done? Like, so, what happens to the money 542 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 3: that basically more red states get than blue states. What 543 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,239 Speaker 3: happens to that money the poor kids in Tennessee are 544 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 3: in Mississippiate, Like, what happens to that money that kids 545 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 3: with disabilities get? So I haven't seen a plan yet. 546 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 4: I think it's very unlikely that you're going to see 547 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 4: a plan. 548 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 549 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 3: So they're going to try to get everybody up and 550 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 3: outrage land about the symbolism about whether they're going to 551 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 3: close the Department of Education versus not. The craziness here. 552 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 7: Is, look how many people are vuying for the job. 553 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 3: Of being the head of the Department of Education. And 554 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 3: the other craziness is I saw Donald Trump's ten point plan. 555 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 8: In that ten point plan, there's a whole lot of stuff, 556 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 8: Like half of it were words that I have said, 557 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 8: like project based instruction, and how do we have career 558 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 8: based learning, and how do we have internships? And how 559 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 8: do we do all this stuff? Only the public schools 560 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 8: can really actually do that. And then he says, well, 561 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 8: we're going to close the Department of Education and move 562 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 8: everything to the States. But if a school doesn't do 563 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 8: what I wanted to do, I'm going to close it down. 564 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 8: That sounds like actually more control, not less control. So 565 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 8: we have to separate out their rhetoric which is intended 566 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 8: to create chaos and fear from Okay, are you really 567 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 8: going to take money away from kids with disabilities? A 568 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 8: whole lot of Republican parents have kids with disabilities. 569 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 3: Are you going to take that money away or not? 570 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 3: If Donald Trump tries to take money away from parents 571 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 3: or from kids with disabilities, I'm going to be out 572 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 3: there fighting against that. If Donald Trump tries to take 573 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 3: money away from kids in Mississippi or New York City 574 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 3: that need that power professional in a classroom to help 575 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 3: that kids learn to read, I'm going to fight against that. 576 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 3: So what are they really saying. 577 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: What are they really saying? 578 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 3: We don't know what they're really saying. 579 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 4: They don't want public education to thrive because they want 580 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 4: people to be in religious schools and also in educating 581 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 4: people as dangerous, right, I mean, is that really what 582 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 4: it is? 583 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 3: I would actually ask it as a question, why do 584 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 3: they fear education? I understand we've seen this for forty 585 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 3: or fifty years. It stopped for a little while because 586 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 3: of all the stuff that was going on in terms 587 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 3: of yeah, sure, but let me tell you a little secret. 588 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 3: Since I've been around for a long time, it used 589 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 3: to be like places like New York, Cardinal O'Connor. Cardinal 590 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 3: O'Connor and the Catholic Diocese worked pretty well with the 591 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 3: public schools. And I was around enough that we actually 592 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 3: work together. We honored religious education. But we need to 593 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 3: actually fund our job, America's job, states jobs. We have 594 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 3: an obligation to fund a public school system that is 595 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 3: available for everyone. Now, if people want religious education, you know, 596 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 3: my grandmother used to say, zygozint, let them have religious education. 597 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 3: Let them do that. They want to do it, constitutionally, 598 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 3: they should have your right to do it. But they 599 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 3: can't take money from the public system that goes to 600 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 3: everybody for a separate system. And that's really a question here. 601 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 3: And what's happened is you see it in a bunch 602 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 3: of people. What with these voucher cases that are going 603 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 3: on right now, these voucher moves and state legislators. 604 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 7: Most of the money is going to kids and families 605 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 7: who will already send their kids to private schools. And 606 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 7: most of the money is going to rich parents and 607 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 7: rich people who already send their kids to private schools. 608 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 7: So instead of this being about all kids, what we're 609 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 7: saying is that's where the money in these Baucher states 610 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 7: are going to, and it has actually hurt the rest 611 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 7: of the kids. And our job, my job is to 612 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 7: make sure there's a public school system that every single 613 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 7: parent wants to send their kids to, every kid is 614 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 7: engaged in and thrives, and teachers want to be. 615 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. Randy Winegarden, thank you, thank you, thank you. 616 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 4: It sounds like we're going to have a long for yours. 617 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 3: Yes, but thank you for your podcast and thank you 618 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 3: for communicating with people, because I think you are one 619 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 3: of the few people on the progressive side that really 620 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 3: understands that this kind of sense of a podcast where 621 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 3: you have people on and you talk to people and 622 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 3: people then listen to it. That's what Joe Rogan does 623 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 3: all the time. So I just really also wanted to 624 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 3: say that this communication vehicle how we communicate with people, 625 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 3: that is also part of what we have to learn. 626 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: Right now, that's it for this episode of Fast Politics. 627 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear 628 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: the best minds and politics makes sense of all this chaos. 629 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a 630 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.