WEBVTT - Democracy in Crisis: Putin’s Assault (with Anne Applebaum & Michael McFaul) 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.640 You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio, 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.400 I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.440 Over the course of this season of the podcast, we've 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.840 been looking at the challenges democracy faces right here in 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:25.080 our own country, from the relentless assault on voting rights 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:30.360 in the States to an ideologically driven Supreme Court whose 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:36.559 decisions have dire consequences for our civil rights and freedom. Today, 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:41.120 we're taking our exploration of the battle to save democracy abroad, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:47.440 unpacking the motivations behind the brutal, unprovoked invasion of Ukraine 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.920 by Putin's Russia. The war in Ukraine has captured the 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:57.760 world's attention since Russia began its assault on February. I 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.160 don't know about you, but my heart just rakes watching 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:08.320 the Russian military shelling cities, destroying apartment buildings, community centers, 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:14.880 religious institutions, homes, lives, everything in their way. And yet 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:20.080 my heart also soars while I watched the Ukrainians bravely 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:25.320 persevere in the fight against this attack to preserve their 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:31.160 country and their freedom. There has been incredible reporting from 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.560 the front lines that is keeping us informed. But I 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.120 want to do something a little different today and take 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:43.760 advantage of the expertise and insights of two Gats I 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.080 know and admire, to talk about how we got here, 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.600 where this may be heading, what this crisis has to 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.160 do with us and with our democracy here in the 0:01:54.240 --> 0:02:00.120 United States as well as elsewhere. Later, I'll be speaking 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:05.120 with Mike McFall, who served as ambassador to Russia when 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.400 I was Secretary of State. We both had a front 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:12.600 row seat to Putin's return to power in twelve and 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.240 we both have some interesting stories to share from that time. 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:23.440 But first, I'm talking to historian and journalist An Applebaum, 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.440 and has been writing about Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:34.239 democracy and authoritarianism for years. I don't think it's hyperbole 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.720 to say she's one of the smartest journalists out there, 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:42.880 particularly when it comes to what's happening right now. You 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.760 may have seen or read one of her many books 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.480 and articles. She's currently a staff writer at The Atlantic. 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.840 I've often looked to Anne to bring a wide lens 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:59.920 and historical context to the current events in Europe and Russia. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.639 Uh and I was eager to talk to her about 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:08.320 what's happening now. And lives mostly in Warsaw, Poland, but 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:14.359 she's currently teaching a course un Democracy at Johns Hopkins University. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:20.080 So for this conversation, we reached her in Baltimore. Hello 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.040 and hello Hilary. How nice to see you. It is 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.359 really nice to see you. I have to say You've 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:33.760 been a constant source of information and explanation for me 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.680 over a number of years, but particularly over the last 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.440 few years. And I'm delighted that you can take some 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.240 time to be on this podcast. So welcome, Thank you. 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.720 I'm flattered to be asked and very happy to join 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.720 you to get us started. You know, there's been a 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:55.400 lot of speculation about Putin's mindset, and I have my 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.400 own experience as a Secretary of State and apparently one 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:03.240 of his favorite people on the planet. Um, and you 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:07.720 are an expert on authoritarianism, democracy, Eastern Europe, and so 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:12.360 much else. You wrote a really prescient, very smart piece 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.360 three weeks before the invasion in the Atlantic called the 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:22.720 Reason Putin would risk War? So and unpack that for us. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.960 What do you know about Putin that enabled you to 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.240 see that when so many other people were happy to 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.560 put their heads in the sand. So, first of all, 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.920 thanks for having me, and thanks for that particular question. Um, 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.120 there is a relevance to you, which I which I'll 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.200 get you in a second. Um Putin is someone who 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.800 was very shaped by the events of in the way 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.440 that all of us were. But he was shaped differently 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.280 from from you and me and many listeners. We I 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.760 was in Eastern Europe and nineteen nine I watched the 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.640 ballin Wall fell. It was a moment of great excitement, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.400 feeling of liberation, uh In, when the Soviet Union came 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.840 to an end, that felt like a possibility for a 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.680 new beginning. It was a great moment for Russia. Um 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.240 Putin experienced all those events from exactly the opposite point 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.400 of view. So he saw the Berlin Wall. To him, 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:19.960 he saw democracy activists, demonstrators on the street, forced the 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:23.720 legitimate government out of power and forced him to make 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.400 this humiliating retreat. You know. There he was, you know, 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.680 a member of the Imperial Police, you know, policing East 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:33.880 Germany with which is where he was based at the time, 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.040 the KGB headquarters in Dresden. They had to burn their 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:41.240 papers in the courtyard. Um They called Moscow for reinforcements. 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.840 None came, and they understood the empire was over. He's 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.040 written about that and spoken about it several times, so 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.600 we know he remembers that. You know, he then retreated 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.400 back to Russia. UM, where he was part of this, 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:57.400 you know, his generation's extraordinary theft of resources. Actually they 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.880 stole money from the state, they then laundered in the West. UM. 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.400 They then brought it back to Russia, and they brought 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.760 themselves back to power. But he's always harbored this, this 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.760 memory of that humiliating defeat, and for him, it was 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:12.800 both a defeat of the empire, but it was also 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.640 the victory of what he sees as a kind of 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:20.520 Western virus, you know, and um, an anti autocratic ideology. 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.560 You know, the language of democracy, the language of freedom, 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.320 the language of rights, the language of anti corruption. UM. 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.200 These are the things that he thinks are the most 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.440 dangerous to his form of power, and he fears that 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.120 it could bring him down exactly the way that it 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.880 brought down the Soviet Union. You figure in this because 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:43.680 inn when there were genuine democracy protests in Moscow, UM, 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:48.479 and these were I stipulate, grassroots demonstrations organized in Russia 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:53.200 by Russians. His reaction was the United States and the 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:57.080 CIA and Hillary Clinton have organized these in order to 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.360 take me down um. So he sees all of that 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.880 language and all of those movements he perceives as being 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.200 somehow orchestrated by the United States. It comes from the West, 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.040 it's being done secretly. He can't believe that it's authentic 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:14.400 and real. And his hatred of Ukraine comes from exactly this, 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:16.880 because Ukraine is a country that has been trying for 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:22.760 three decades to achieve independence, democracy, freedom and sovereignty, most 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:28.520 recently in teen when another enormous grassroots democracy movement forced 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:33.200 an autocratic president who is breaking the Ukrainian constitution, forced 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.760 him to flee the country. And that is what he 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.720 is most afraid of. And so Ukraine for him is 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.760 this representative of a set of ideas that he doesn't like. 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.040 I mean, there may there is a historical component as well, 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.240 and this, you know, this kind of traditional Russian feeling 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.120 that Ukraine is not a real country and it's just 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.320 part of us. But it's also what's truly motivating him 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.640 is that this is the language, the language that's used 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.800 by the Ukrainian president that we're all hearing him using 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:02.880 now is a problem for him personally. This is what 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:07.400 he's afraid of. Russian's hearing and adopting a successful, prosperous 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.640 democratic Ukraine would be such a challenge to his form 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.920 of government that he can't tolerate it. How do you think, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:19.000 you know, Putin judged this time. You know, obviously he 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.440 had an incredibly wonderful experience with four years of Trump, 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:29.240 who was parroting everything that he wanted to hear. Why 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:33.719 now do you think that this has happened? So it's 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.160 a it's a good question. It's actually clear from the 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:38.120 nature of the attack that this is something he's been 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.160 thinking about for a long time. Um, He's been planning 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.079 it for a long time. He's even been planning the 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.640 propaganda around it for a long time. UM. It was 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.640 not a spontaneous attack provoked by something Joe Biden said, 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:52.559 or Zelinsky said, I think he chose the moment for 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:54.719 a reason. I think there are a few things going on. 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.959 One is that I think during the Trump administration, Putin 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.480 believed that he might have a way to at Ukraine back, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.160 or to weaken Ukraine, or to undermine Ukraine, maybe even 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.880 using the United States. Um, he hoped that Trump would 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.360 be an accessory to that. And I think Putin hope 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.640 that it may be in a second Trump term, um, 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.960 that task would be completed. UM. I think he also 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.360 imagined both that America was more divided and also that 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.640 American Europe were more divided than they are. He did 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.920 not expect the reaction of the alliance. So it's not 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.240 just the United States as the United States plus Europe 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.120 plus other allies. Actually Japan has been very supportive as well, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.240 who are joining in the sanctions, who are helping with 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.360 military aid. You know, he has a narrative about the 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.640 West being degenerate and the West being finished um in 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.839 the West, you know term in power being over. And 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.000 I think he believed his own narrative um, and so 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.079 he thought that this, this would be a good moment 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.880 to strike. I agree with that. I think that, as 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.640 you say, this is something that he's long been planning, 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:59.120 and it was opportunistic. Now, as shocking as it is 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.640 to see that invasion, I think a lot of people 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:08.959 are similarly just totally confused and frankly heartbroken about the brutality. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.480 Anybody who followed what Putin did in Czechnia, or in 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.400 Syria or even in you know, the parts of Ukraine 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.920 that he seized. I think ten thousand people have died 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:25.680 since and ongoing fighting with Russian proxies as well as 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.480 the Russian military. So what do you think is the 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:34.040 best case outcome here? The best case outcome is that 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.480 Ukraine wins um and by winning I mean that the 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:41.600 Russian troops are forced out of the country. You're exactly 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.199 right to point to the behavior of Russian troops in 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.440 previously occupied territories in the past. What we know about 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.840 occupied Crimea is that they came in, they arrested anyone 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:55.480 who they thought might be a dissident. They expelled people 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.719 from the country, People were disappeared, people were kidnapped on 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.559 the street who they thought might be political opponents. As 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.839 the Russians move into eastern Ukraine, they are behaving like 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.560 the nkb D, which was the precursor of the KGB 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:13.480 did in Eastern Europe. Sometimes I have this horrible deja 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.319 vu because I wrote a book about exactly that period, 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.440 and they came in, they had lists of people to arrest, 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.520 they terrorized the population, and they brought in a regime 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.440 of terror. And my guess is that the Russians will 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.079 do the same. And this is why I say this, 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.480 because this is why the Ukrainians are fighting, It's not 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.319 just about sovereignty. It's also that they know their entire 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.079 way of life will be destroyed if the Russians come 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.079 um and for that reason, the only positive outcome that 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.600 and I think the one outcome that the United States 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:47.360 should be working towards, is that the Russians withdraw. Any 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.640 remaining Russian presence in those territories is going to be 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.599 pure hell for the people who live there. Right, I 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.520 agree with that completely, certainly in any communication I've had 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.319 with anybody in any position to influence our policy, I 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.040 think that is exactly what we should be aiming for, 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.000 which means that we need to have even more lethal 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:11.040 aid flowing into Ukraine to help support them. Where do 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.599 you stand on this whole issue and about you know, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:20.000 direct NATO involvement, particularly direct American involvement, in doing more 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:26.040 than providing equipment and obviously intelligence and financial support to 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:30.000 help the Ukrainians, uh, you know, defend themselves. So I 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:34.800 understand why the White House and NATO are reluctant to 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.760 have a direct confrontation between NATO troops and Russian troops. 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.439 You know, I understand where that comes from. I understand 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:43.880 that people. It's not just that people are afraid of 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.160 nuclear war. It's also that, you know, we haven't had 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.439 a proxy war with Russia since Afghanistan in the nineteen eighties, 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.679 which was a completely different war, completely different era, not 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.480 the same stakes in terms of you know, in terms 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:57.839 of nuclear weapons and so on, and people just don't 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.400 know what the rules are. I mean, what counts as galactian? 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:02.760 What's a provocation? You know, I don't think we have 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.839 the same kinds of back channels. There's no polit bureau, 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.800 there are no intermediate institutions with which we have relationships. Um. 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.200 It's not clear even that ambassadors, you know, have any 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.000 influence in this, you know, in the Putin regime, so 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.839 it's we don't have any contacts with them. Um. So 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.719 I understand that reluctance. However, I also worry that some 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.560 in Washington and elsewhere haven't really understood what the stakes 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.920 are here. I mean, I don't think we can allow 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.679 Ukraine to be defeated. I think that it would have 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:38.079 such catastrophic consequences for us and for our allies, um, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.440 you know, both in inviting Putin to come into those 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.520 territories and in terms of what it would mean for 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:48.040 you know, for the self confidence of NATO allies, but 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.000 also other allies around the world. I hope that people 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:52.840 in Washington are beginning to be a little bit more 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.920 creative that if a no fly zone is out, then um, 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.240 you know, are we thinking about doing big millet verry 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.240 exercises in the Baltic Sea in order to draw Russian 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.679 troops away? Are we thinking about ways of training and 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.319 army Ukrainians that we haven't tried before. One of the 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.839 things that you've done so effectively over the last couple 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.559 of years, particularly is to link what the stakes are 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:25.960 between this rise of autocracy, particularly the aggressive disinformation campaigns 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:31.160 of Russia, but linking it to arise in either an 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:36.400 indifference or contempt or rejection of democracy on the part 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.240 of too many people in my view, in Europe and 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.560 in the United States. Do you think that this could 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:47.760 be a turning point in waking people up as to 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:50.400 what is at stake and what could be lost if 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:54.920 we don't protect our freedom and our our democratic institutions. 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.960 I think all of the people who took democracy for 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.640 granted in our society and in in our in Allied 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.360 societies suddenly realized how much they would have to lose, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.560 and how much value there is in the institutions that 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.440 we have, and why we need to protect them and 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:14.760 reinforce them. I mean, it's been actually very interesting to 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.680 watch how some of the pro Russian politicians in Europe 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.240 have been embarrassed. Salvini, who is the leader of the 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.800 Italian far right, went to the Polish border a few 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.560 days ago where the mayor of the local town shouted 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.400 at him on camera and and waved a T shirt 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:33.760 that he'd worn in Moscow, which which is a sort 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.880 of pro Putin T shirt and said, you know, Mr Salvini, 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:38.560 do you want to wear this when you're talking to 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.640 the refugees. There is a feeling that these, you know, 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.080 these pro Russian politicians who were very often taking money 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.480 from or at least accepting kind of pr help from 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.600 the Russians, or had interactions with the Russians, are part 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.600 of the problem. They did have influence and a lot 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.920 of societies, and the feeling that they are partly responsible 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.720 um is now quite widespread. I mean, Nigel Farage in 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.640 the UK is under attack, you know, Marine Lapin in 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.320 France is under attack, so many many of them are 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.720 now being seen as having been irresponsible. And of course 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.720 these are the same politicians who say they hate liberal 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:19.080 democracy and you know, have autocratic leanings and would destroy 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.560 institutions if they if they came to power. Well, in fact, 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.840 you're currently at Johns Hopkins University, UH teaching a course 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:31.360 appropriately titled democracy. And I'm just curious, you know, with 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.600 the Cold War having ended before most, if not all, 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.360 of your students were even born, how do they view 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.200 this war in Ukraine? What kind of questions do they 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.560 ask you about? You know what it all means? Um, 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.240 it's You're right, It's a fascinating moment. I was thinking 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.520 about how shaped my worldview this war I think plus 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.960 January the six is going to shape the world view 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:54.800 of a lot of Americans. These will be the two 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.720 big events of this era for for people who are 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.280 just coming of age, and I think they do see it, 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.200 you know, very much the way we've we've just discussed 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.560 as a as a moment when a democracy is fighting 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.880 back against an autocracy, suddenly issues that seemed very vague 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.280 or hard to understand become black and white. I think 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.400 it's also very important that this war kills a kind 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.200 of myth that we had in the West, which was 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:26.000 the myth of inevitability, that somehow liberal democracy is inevitable, 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:27.920 that it will always be with us, that it will 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.399 always win the battles, and that there's nothing in particular 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.840 that we need to do in order to support it 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:35.639 or keep it going. This was particularly damaging in the 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.440 United States, where it seemed like, you know, we could 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.800 just let the professional politicians go and do their jobs, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:44.680 none of us had to really participate in anything because 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.240 our democracy was just fine. I think this this and 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.200 as I say in January, the six are a moment 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.560 when people see that that's not true, that there may 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.920 have to be more public participation, that you might have 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.240 to involve yourself in politics and ways that you didn't expect, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:03.680 just like the Ukrainians are right now. We're taking a 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:15.760 quick break. Stay with us, you know, and I recently 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.120 wrote an essay for The Atlantic where your work appears 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.720 about how republicans in our country undermine democracy at home 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:28.600 and that helps autocrats like Putin or jin Ping. You know, 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.639 we're seeing this play out in real time, as you 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.960 point out. In Europe, there has been a shaming of 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:41.320 a lot of the political leaders who supported and praise Putin. 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.960 Here in this country, you have followed how we've had 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.919 our own leaders praising Putin as they call him an 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:53.160 anti woke hero and a warrior in the culture wars. 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:58.120 And the Russian government even broadcasts Tucker Carlson, who appears 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.600 on Fox News because of what he says in support 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.080 of Putin or casting doubt on those who are seeing 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.200 with our own eyes what Putin is doing. How do 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:14.680 Russian viewers actually get information and how do you think 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:19.160 Russia views somebody like Tucker Carlson and the other Trump apologists, 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.800 both in the US and in Europe. The role of 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.600 the Trump apologists is truly interesting because, of course, for me, 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:30.320 it evokes the role of left wing apologists for communism, 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.119 you know, in the in the last century. And I 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.000 think their behavior comes out of something similar their dislike 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.560 of their own country, of the United States. The nature 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:44.560 of modern America is so strong that they're looking for 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:49.440 alternatives anywhere, even if those are autocratic alternatives, and they're 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.040 willing to overlook the true nature of those autocratic states 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.760 if that gives them a kind of stick with which 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.119 they can beat their own country. And so the idea, 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.080 first of all, that Putin is a Christian or that 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.399 he represents some kind of white Christian um, you know, 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.760 anti woke spirit. I mean, it's absurd on all kinds 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.520 of levels. Very few Russians or Christians, almost none of 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.040 them go to church, very few of them have ever 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.600 read the Bible. You know. One of the features of 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.000 this war has been Russian bombing of cathedrals and churches, 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.040 you know, but of course the Russians themselves encourage it. 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.959 I mean, I don't know exactly where Tucker gets his information, UM, 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.960 but some of it is quite specific. He's made specific 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.160 comments about, you know, things that the Ukrainians have done. 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.160 That somebody is feeding him information about how he should 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:37.000 describe the war and giving him ideas UM. And then 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.159 of course that information is very very useful for the 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.760 Putin regime to play that back on Russian television. UM. 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.359 Tucker Carlson appears quite frequently, and it's you know, used 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.600 as evidence that we have support in America. UM. And 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:53.080 so he is literally a useful idiot. I mean, he 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.200 is getting his information from someone with ties to Russia. 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:57.560 I don't know who it is, and I don't want 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.920 to speculate that information is then being reproduced. It is 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.320 then useful to the Russian regime. So he's acting as 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:08.119 a conduit for Russian propaganda, which is extremely useful to them. Um, 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.359 it's it's a really ugly thing to see, you know. 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.760 I I like a lot of people only knew about 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:21.280 President Zelenski from Afar, but what we've seen has been 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.960 truly inspirational. And I think but for him and his leadership, 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.440 we might not have the unity and the commitment that 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:33.440 we need to keep supporting Ukraine in this fight. Have 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.080 you ever met him, an and and if so, can 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:40.159 you give us some idea about how this former comedian 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:44.720 and actor has grown into the principal defender of democracy 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.000 and freedom in the world right now? Um, The first 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.600 time I met Zelenski or saw Zelenski was not that 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:54.680 long after he was elected. There was a conference, a 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.119 sort of big event in Kiev. I was invited. He 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.199 was speaking there and he when he spoke, he did 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:02.479 a kind of performance. I mean, it's you know, there 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.120 was some comedy routine. One of his comedy troops came 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.480 and pretended to be him, and you know, then he 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:09.159 stood up. You know, it was it was funny, It 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:12.520 was very well done, and afterwards people said, well, that's 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.240 I guess it's nice that the president of Ukraine is amusing, 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.440 but you know, this is a country war with Russia. 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:21.240 Maybe we need something more. And people were really worried 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.120 by that Um and they didn't know how he would 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:26.600 react in the case of a crisis. One of the 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:29.639 really interesting things about him, though, is how he got elected. 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.639 So he was in a television series that he wrote 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.520 and produced called Servant of the People, in which he 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:40.439 played an ordinary school teacher who accidentally becomes president Um. 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.159 And it's it's a long story and the plot it's complicated, 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:44.960 and you know, and but a lot of the the 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:48.719 television series does is it makes fun of how Ukrainians 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.600 are overrespectful of power. You know, once he was a 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:54.520 sort of, you know, an ordinary guy. He becomes president. 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:57.040 Suddenly people start genuflecting to him, and you know, he's 0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:59.800 mystified by that and so on. And I think one 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.800 of the things that he's understood is that the way 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:05.960 to reach people is to be an ordinary person, to 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:09.119 have ordinary emotions. And in a country that's used to 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.119 feeling distance and sort of fear from the state and 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.399 from power, which they've had for you know, several hundred years. 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:20.240 Really he has broken through and he you know, HiT's 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:23.680 what he's wearing. He's wearing a T shirt, not not fatigues. 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:25.760 He's not pretending to be a general. He's just an 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:28.360 ordinary person who's fighting this war, like so many are. 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:31.760 He uses the language of ordinary people. He doesn't talk 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:36.080 in kind of pompous tones. Um. He uses his own 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:38.560 phone to make the videos that he's showing to people, 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:41.320 so they're sort of it's unprofessional. I mean some of 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:44.639 that is orchestrated, but it's orchestrated with a desire to 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.840 be authentic, and it works because it is authentic. Um. 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.280 And so I think his the he's trying to inspire 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:54.639 people with bravery by acting out bravery himself. This is 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:57.359 what bravery looks like. Look here I am, here's my 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:00.040