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Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both.

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Speaker 1: Over the course of this season of the podcast, we've

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Speaker 1: been looking at the challenges democracy faces right here in

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Speaker 1: our own country, from the relentless assault on voting rights

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Speaker 1: in the States to an ideologically driven Supreme Court whose

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Speaker 1: decisions have dire consequences for our civil rights and freedom. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're taking our exploration of the battle to save democracy abroad,

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Speaker 1: unpacking the motivations behind the brutal, unprovoked invasion of Ukraine

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Speaker 1: by Putin's Russia. The war in Ukraine has captured the

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Speaker 1: world's attention since Russia began its assault on February. I

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Speaker 1: don't know about you, but my heart just rakes watching

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Speaker 1: the Russian military shelling cities, destroying apartment buildings, community centers,

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Speaker 1: religious institutions, homes, lives, everything in their way. And yet

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Speaker 1: my heart also soars while I watched the Ukrainians bravely

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Speaker 1: persevere in the fight against this attack to preserve their

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Speaker 1: country and their freedom. There has been incredible reporting from

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Speaker 1: the front lines that is keeping us informed. But I

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Speaker 1: want to do something a little different today and take

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Speaker 1: advantage of the expertise and insights of two Gats I

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Speaker 1: know and admire, to talk about how we got here,

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Speaker 1: where this may be heading, what this crisis has to

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Speaker 1: do with us and with our democracy here in the

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Speaker 1: United States as well as elsewhere. Later, I'll be speaking

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Speaker 1: with Mike McFall, who served as ambassador to Russia when

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Speaker 1: I was Secretary of State. We both had a front

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Speaker 1: row seat to Putin's return to power in twelve and

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Speaker 1: we both have some interesting stories to share from that time.

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Speaker 1: But first, I'm talking to historian and journalist An Applebaum,

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Speaker 1: and has been writing about Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 1: democracy and authoritarianism for years. I don't think it's hyperbole

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Speaker 1: to say she's one of the smartest journalists out there,

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Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to what's happening right now. You

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Speaker 1: may have seen or read one of her many books

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Speaker 1: and articles. She's currently a staff writer at The Atlantic.

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Speaker 1: I've often looked to Anne to bring a wide lens

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Speaker 1: and historical context to the current events in Europe and Russia.

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Speaker 1: Uh and I was eager to talk to her about

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Speaker 1: what's happening now. And lives mostly in Warsaw, Poland, but

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Speaker 1: she's currently teaching a course un Democracy at Johns Hopkins University.

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Speaker 1: So for this conversation, we reached her in Baltimore. Hello

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Speaker 1: and hello Hilary. How nice to see you. It is

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Speaker 1: really nice to see you. I have to say You've

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Speaker 1: been a constant source of information and explanation for me

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Speaker 1: over a number of years, but particularly over the last

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Speaker 1: few years. And I'm delighted that you can take some

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Speaker 1: time to be on this podcast. So welcome, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'm flattered to be asked and very happy to join

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Speaker 1: you to get us started. You know, there's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of speculation about Putin's mindset, and I have my

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Speaker 1: own experience as a Secretary of State and apparently one

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Speaker 1: of his favorite people on the planet. Um, and you

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Speaker 1: are an expert on authoritarianism, democracy, Eastern Europe, and so

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Speaker 1: much else. You wrote a really prescient, very smart piece

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Speaker 1: three weeks before the invasion in the Atlantic called the

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Speaker 1: Reason Putin would risk War? So and unpack that for us.

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Speaker 1: What do you know about Putin that enabled you to

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Speaker 1: see that when so many other people were happy to

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Speaker 1: put their heads in the sand. So, first of all,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me, and thanks for that particular question. Um,

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Speaker 1: there is a relevance to you, which I which I'll

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Speaker 1: get you in a second. Um Putin is someone who

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Speaker 1: was very shaped by the events of in the way

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Speaker 1: that all of us were. But he was shaped differently

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Speaker 1: from from you and me and many listeners. We I

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Speaker 1: was in Eastern Europe and nineteen nine I watched the

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Speaker 1: ballin Wall fell. It was a moment of great excitement,

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Speaker 1: feeling of liberation, uh In, when the Soviet Union came

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Speaker 1: to an end, that felt like a possibility for a

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Speaker 1: new beginning. It was a great moment for Russia. Um

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Speaker 1: Putin experienced all those events from exactly the opposite point

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Speaker 1: of view. So he saw the Berlin Wall. To him,

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Speaker 1: he saw democracy activists, demonstrators on the street, forced the

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Speaker 1: legitimate government out of power and forced him to make

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Speaker 1: this humiliating retreat. You know. There he was, you know,

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Speaker 1: a member of the Imperial Police, you know, policing East

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Speaker 1: Germany with which is where he was based at the time,

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Speaker 1: the KGB headquarters in Dresden. They had to burn their

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Speaker 1: papers in the courtyard. Um They called Moscow for reinforcements.

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Speaker 1: None came, and they understood the empire was over. He's

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Speaker 1: written about that and spoken about it several times, so

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Speaker 1: we know he remembers that. You know, he then retreated

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Speaker 1: back to Russia. UM, where he was part of this,

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Speaker 1: you know, his generation's extraordinary theft of resources. Actually they

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Speaker 1: stole money from the state, they then laundered in the West. UM.

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Speaker 1: They then brought it back to Russia, and they brought

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Speaker 1: themselves back to power. But he's always harbored this, this

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Speaker 1: memory of that humiliating defeat, and for him, it was

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Speaker 1: both a defeat of the empire, but it was also

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Speaker 1: the victory of what he sees as a kind of

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Speaker 1: Western virus, you know, and um, an anti autocratic ideology.

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Speaker 1: You know, the language of democracy, the language of freedom,

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Speaker 1: the language of rights, the language of anti corruption. UM.

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Speaker 1: These are the things that he thinks are the most

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Speaker 1: dangerous to his form of power, and he fears that

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Speaker 1: it could bring him down exactly the way that it

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Speaker 1: brought down the Soviet Union. You figure in this because

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Speaker 1: inn when there were genuine democracy protests in Moscow, UM,

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Speaker 1: and these were I stipulate, grassroots demonstrations organized in Russia

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Speaker 1: by Russians. His reaction was the United States and the

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Speaker 1: CIA and Hillary Clinton have organized these in order to

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Speaker 1: take me down um. So he sees all of that

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Speaker 1: language and all of those movements he perceives as being

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Speaker 1: somehow orchestrated by the United States. It comes from the West,

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Speaker 1: it's being done secretly. He can't believe that it's authentic

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Speaker 1: and real. And his hatred of Ukraine comes from exactly this,

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Speaker 1: because Ukraine is a country that has been trying for

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Speaker 1: three decades to achieve independence, democracy, freedom and sovereignty, most

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Speaker 1: recently in teen when another enormous grassroots democracy movement forced

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Speaker 1: an autocratic president who is breaking the Ukrainian constitution, forced

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Speaker 1: him to flee the country. And that is what he

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Speaker 1: is most afraid of. And so Ukraine for him is

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Speaker 1: this representative of a set of ideas that he doesn't like.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there may there is a historical component as well,

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Speaker 1: and this, you know, this kind of traditional Russian feeling

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Speaker 1: that Ukraine is not a real country and it's just

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Speaker 1: part of us. But it's also what's truly motivating him

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Speaker 1: is that this is the language, the language that's used

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Speaker 1: by the Ukrainian president that we're all hearing him using

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Speaker 1: now is a problem for him personally. This is what

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Speaker 1: he's afraid of. Russian's hearing and adopting a successful, prosperous

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Speaker 1: democratic Ukraine would be such a challenge to his form

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Speaker 1: of government that he can't tolerate it. How do you think,

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Speaker 1: you know, Putin judged this time. You know, obviously he

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Speaker 1: had an incredibly wonderful experience with four years of Trump,

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Speaker 1: who was parroting everything that he wanted to hear. Why

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Speaker 1: now do you think that this has happened? So it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a good question. It's actually clear from the

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Speaker 1: nature of the attack that this is something he's been

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Speaker 1: thinking about for a long time. Um, He's been planning

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Speaker 1: it for a long time. He's even been planning the

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Speaker 1: propaganda around it for a long time. UM. It was

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Speaker 1: not a spontaneous attack provoked by something Joe Biden said,

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Speaker 1: or Zelinsky said, I think he chose the moment for

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Speaker 1: a reason. I think there are a few things going on.

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Speaker 1: One is that I think during the Trump administration, Putin

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Speaker 1: believed that he might have a way to at Ukraine back,

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Speaker 1: or to weaken Ukraine, or to undermine Ukraine, maybe even

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Speaker 1: using the United States. Um, he hoped that Trump would

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Speaker 1: be an accessory to that. And I think Putin hope

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Speaker 1: that it may be in a second Trump term, um,

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Speaker 1: that task would be completed. UM. I think he also

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Speaker 1: imagined both that America was more divided and also that

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Speaker 1: American Europe were more divided than they are. He did

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Speaker 1: not expect the reaction of the alliance. So it's not

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Speaker 1: just the United States as the United States plus Europe

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Speaker 1: plus other allies. Actually Japan has been very supportive as well,

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Speaker 1: who are joining in the sanctions, who are helping with

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Speaker 1: military aid. You know, he has a narrative about the

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Speaker 1: West being degenerate and the West being finished um in

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Speaker 1: the West, you know term in power being over. And

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Speaker 1: I think he believed his own narrative um, and so

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Speaker 1: he thought that this, this would be a good moment

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Speaker 1: to strike. I agree with that. I think that, as

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Speaker 1: you say, this is something that he's long been planning,

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Speaker 1: and it was opportunistic. Now, as shocking as it is

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Speaker 1: to see that invasion, I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are similarly just totally confused and frankly heartbroken about the brutality.

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Speaker 1: Anybody who followed what Putin did in Czechnia, or in

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Speaker 1: Syria or even in you know, the parts of Ukraine

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Speaker 1: that he seized. I think ten thousand people have died

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Speaker 1: since and ongoing fighting with Russian proxies as well as

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Speaker 1: the Russian military. So what do you think is the

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Speaker 1: best case outcome here? The best case outcome is that

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Speaker 1: Ukraine wins um and by winning I mean that the

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Speaker 1: Russian troops are forced out of the country. You're exactly

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Speaker 1: right to point to the behavior of Russian troops in

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Speaker 1: previously occupied territories in the past. What we know about

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Speaker 1: occupied Crimea is that they came in, they arrested anyone

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Speaker 1: who they thought might be a dissident. They expelled people

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Speaker 1: from the country, People were disappeared, people were kidnapped on

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Speaker 1: the street who they thought might be political opponents. As

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Speaker 1: the Russians move into eastern Ukraine, they are behaving like

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Speaker 1: the nkb D, which was the precursor of the KGB

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Speaker 1: did in Eastern Europe. Sometimes I have this horrible deja

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Speaker 1: vu because I wrote a book about exactly that period,

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Speaker 1: and they came in, they had lists of people to arrest,

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Speaker 1: they terrorized the population, and they brought in a regime

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Speaker 1: of terror. And my guess is that the Russians will

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Speaker 1: do the same. And this is why I say this,

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Speaker 1: because this is why the Ukrainians are fighting, It's not

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Speaker 1: just about sovereignty. It's also that they know their entire

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Speaker 1: way of life will be destroyed if the Russians come

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Speaker 1: um and for that reason, the only positive outcome that

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Speaker 1: and I think the one outcome that the United States

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Speaker 1: should be working towards, is that the Russians withdraw. Any

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Speaker 1: remaining Russian presence in those territories is going to be

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Speaker 1: pure hell for the people who live there. Right, I

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Speaker 1: agree with that completely, certainly in any communication I've had

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Speaker 1: with anybody in any position to influence our policy, I

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Speaker 1: think that is exactly what we should be aiming for,

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Speaker 1: which means that we need to have even more lethal

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Speaker 1: aid flowing into Ukraine to help support them. Where do

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Speaker 1: you stand on this whole issue and about you know,

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Speaker 1: direct NATO involvement, particularly direct American involvement, in doing more

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Speaker 1: than providing equipment and obviously intelligence and financial support to

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Speaker 1: help the Ukrainians, uh, you know, defend themselves. So I

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Speaker 1: understand why the White House and NATO are reluctant to

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Speaker 1: have a direct confrontation between NATO troops and Russian troops.

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Speaker 1: You know, I understand where that comes from. I understand

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Speaker 1: that people. It's not just that people are afraid of

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Speaker 1: nuclear war. It's also that, you know, we haven't had

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Speaker 1: a proxy war with Russia since Afghanistan in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: which was a completely different war, completely different era, not

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Speaker 1: the same stakes in terms of you know, in terms

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Speaker 1: of nuclear weapons and so on, and people just don't

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Speaker 1: know what the rules are. I mean, what counts as galactian?

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Speaker 1: What's a provocation? You know, I don't think we have

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Speaker 1: the same kinds of back channels. There's no polit bureau,

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Speaker 1: there are no intermediate institutions with which we have relationships. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's not clear even that ambassadors, you know, have any

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Speaker 1: influence in this, you know, in the Putin regime, so

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Speaker 1: it's we don't have any contacts with them. Um. So

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Speaker 1: I understand that reluctance. However, I also worry that some

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Speaker 1: in Washington and elsewhere haven't really understood what the stakes

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Speaker 1: are here. I mean, I don't think we can allow

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Speaker 1: Ukraine to be defeated. I think that it would have

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Speaker 1: such catastrophic consequences for us and for our allies, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, both in inviting Putin to come into those

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Speaker 1: territories and in terms of what it would mean for

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Speaker 1: you know, for the self confidence of NATO allies, but

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Speaker 1: also other allies around the world. I hope that people

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Speaker 1: in Washington are beginning to be a little bit more

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Speaker 1: creative that if a no fly zone is out, then um,

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Speaker 1: you know, are we thinking about doing big millet verry

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Speaker 1: exercises in the Baltic Sea in order to draw Russian

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Speaker 1: troops away? Are we thinking about ways of training and

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Speaker 1: army Ukrainians that we haven't tried before. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that you've done so effectively over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years, particularly is to link what the stakes are

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Speaker 1: between this rise of autocracy, particularly the aggressive disinformation campaigns

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Speaker 1: of Russia, but linking it to arise in either an

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Speaker 1: indifference or contempt or rejection of democracy on the part

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Speaker 1: of too many people in my view, in Europe and

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Speaker 1: in the United States. Do you think that this could

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Speaker 1: be a turning point in waking people up as to

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Speaker 1: what is at stake and what could be lost if

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Speaker 1: we don't protect our freedom and our our democratic institutions.

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Speaker 1: I think all of the people who took democracy for

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Speaker 1: granted in our society and in in our in Allied

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Speaker 1: societies suddenly realized how much they would have to lose,

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Speaker 1: and how much value there is in the institutions that

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Speaker 1: we have, and why we need to protect them and

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Speaker 1: reinforce them. I mean, it's been actually very interesting to

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Speaker 1: watch how some of the pro Russian politicians in Europe

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Speaker 1: have been embarrassed. Salvini, who is the leader of the

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Speaker 1: Italian far right, went to the Polish border a few

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Speaker 1: days ago where the mayor of the local town shouted

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Speaker 1: at him on camera and and waved a T shirt

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Speaker 1: that he'd worn in Moscow, which which is a sort

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Speaker 1: of pro Putin T shirt and said, you know, Mr Salvini,

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Speaker 1: do you want to wear this when you're talking to

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Speaker 1: the refugees. There is a feeling that these, you know,

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Speaker 1: these pro Russian politicians who were very often taking money

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Speaker 1: from or at least accepting kind of pr help from

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Speaker 1: the Russians, or had interactions with the Russians, are part

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Speaker 1: of the problem. They did have influence and a lot

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Speaker 1: of societies, and the feeling that they are partly responsible

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Speaker 1: um is now quite widespread. I mean, Nigel Farage in

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Speaker 1: the UK is under attack, you know, Marine Lapin in

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Speaker 1: France is under attack, so many many of them are

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Speaker 1: now being seen as having been irresponsible. And of course

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Speaker 1: these are the same politicians who say they hate liberal

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Speaker 1: democracy and you know, have autocratic leanings and would destroy

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Speaker 1: institutions if they if they came to power. Well, in fact,

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Speaker 1: you're currently at Johns Hopkins University, UH teaching a course

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Speaker 1: appropriately titled democracy. And I'm just curious, you know, with

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Speaker 1: the Cold War having ended before most, if not all,

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Speaker 1: of your students were even born, how do they view

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Speaker 1: this war in Ukraine? What kind of questions do they

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Speaker 1: ask you about? You know what it all means? Um,

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Speaker 1: it's You're right, It's a fascinating moment. I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about how shaped my worldview this war I think plus

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Speaker 1: January the six is going to shape the world view

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Speaker 1: of a lot of Americans. These will be the two

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Speaker 1: big events of this era for for people who are

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Speaker 1: just coming of age, and I think they do see it,

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Speaker 1: you know, very much the way we've we've just discussed

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Speaker 1: as a as a moment when a democracy is fighting

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Speaker 1: back against an autocracy, suddenly issues that seemed very vague

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Speaker 1: or hard to understand become black and white. I think

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Speaker 1: it's also very important that this war kills a kind

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Speaker 1: of myth that we had in the West, which was

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Speaker 1: the myth of inevitability, that somehow liberal democracy is inevitable,

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Speaker 1: that it will always be with us, that it will

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Speaker 1: always win the battles, and that there's nothing in particular

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Speaker 1: that we need to do in order to support it

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Speaker 1: or keep it going. This was particularly damaging in the

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Speaker 1: United States, where it seemed like, you know, we could

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Speaker 1: just let the professional politicians go and do their jobs,

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Speaker 1: none of us had to really participate in anything because

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Speaker 1: our democracy was just fine. I think this this and

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Speaker 1: as I say in January, the six are a moment

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Speaker 1: when people see that that's not true, that there may

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Speaker 1: have to be more public participation, that you might have

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Speaker 1: to involve yourself in politics and ways that you didn't expect,

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Speaker 1: just like the Ukrainians are right now. We're taking a

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Speaker 1: quick break. Stay with us, you know, and I recently

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Speaker 1: wrote an essay for The Atlantic where your work appears

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Speaker 1: about how republicans in our country undermine democracy at home

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Speaker 1: and that helps autocrats like Putin or jin Ping. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're seeing this play out in real time, as you

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Speaker 1: point out. In Europe, there has been a shaming of

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Speaker 1: a lot of the political leaders who supported and praise Putin.

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Speaker 1: Here in this country, you have followed how we've had

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Speaker 1: our own leaders praising Putin as they call him an

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Speaker 1: anti woke hero and a warrior in the culture wars.

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Speaker 1: And the Russian government even broadcasts Tucker Carlson, who appears

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Speaker 1: on Fox News because of what he says in support

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Speaker 1: of Putin or casting doubt on those who are seeing

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Speaker 1: with our own eyes what Putin is doing. How do

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Speaker 1: Russian viewers actually get information and how do you think

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Speaker 1: Russia views somebody like Tucker Carlson and the other Trump apologists,

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Speaker 1: both in the US and in Europe. The role of

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Speaker 1: the Trump apologists is truly interesting because, of course, for me,

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Speaker 1: it evokes the role of left wing apologists for communism,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the in the last century. And I

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Speaker 1: think their behavior comes out of something similar their dislike

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Speaker 1: of their own country, of the United States. The nature

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Speaker 1: of modern America is so strong that they're looking for

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Speaker 1: alternatives anywhere, even if those are autocratic alternatives, and they're

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Speaker 1: willing to overlook the true nature of those autocratic states

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Speaker 1: if that gives them a kind of stick with which

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Speaker 1: they can beat their own country. And so the idea,

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Speaker 1: first of all, that Putin is a Christian or that

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Speaker 1: he represents some kind of white Christian um, you know,

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Speaker 1: anti woke spirit. I mean, it's absurd on all kinds

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Speaker 1: of levels. Very few Russians or Christians, almost none of

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Speaker 1: them go to church, very few of them have ever

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Speaker 1: read the Bible. You know. One of the features of

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Speaker 1: this war has been Russian bombing of cathedrals and churches,

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Speaker 1: you know, but of course the Russians themselves encourage it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know exactly where Tucker gets his information, UM,

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Speaker 1: but some of it is quite specific. He's made specific

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Speaker 1: comments about, you know, things that the Ukrainians have done.

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Speaker 1: That somebody is feeding him information about how he should

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Speaker 1: describe the war and giving him ideas UM. And then

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Speaker 1: of course that information is very very useful for the

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Speaker 1: Putin regime to play that back on Russian television. UM.

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson appears quite frequently, and it's you know, used

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Speaker 1: as evidence that we have support in America. UM. And

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Speaker 1: so he is literally a useful idiot. I mean, he

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Speaker 1: is getting his information from someone with ties to Russia.

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Speaker 1: I don't know who it is, and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to speculate that information is then being reproduced. It is

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Speaker 1: then useful to the Russian regime. So he's acting as

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Speaker 1: a conduit for Russian propaganda, which is extremely useful to them. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a really ugly thing to see, you know.

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Speaker 1: I I like a lot of people only knew about

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Speaker 1: President Zelenski from Afar, but what we've seen has been

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Speaker 1: truly inspirational. And I think but for him and his leadership,

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Speaker 1: we might not have the unity and the commitment that

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Speaker 1: we need to keep supporting Ukraine in this fight. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever met him, an and and if so, can

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Speaker 1: you give us some idea about how this former comedian

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Speaker 1: and actor has grown into the principal defender of democracy

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Speaker 1: and freedom in the world right now? Um, The first

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Speaker 1: time I met Zelenski or saw Zelenski was not that

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Speaker 1: long after he was elected. There was a conference, a

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Speaker 1: sort of big event in Kiev. I was invited. He

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Speaker 1: was speaking there and he when he spoke, he did

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Speaker 1: a kind of performance. I mean, it's you know, there

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Speaker 1: was some comedy routine. One of his comedy troops came

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Speaker 1: and pretended to be him, and you know, then he

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Speaker 1: stood up. You know, it was it was funny, It

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Speaker 1: was very well done, and afterwards people said, well, that's

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Speaker 1: I guess it's nice that the president of Ukraine is amusing,

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Speaker 1: but you know, this is a country war with Russia.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we need something more. And people were really worried

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Speaker 1: by that Um and they didn't know how he would

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Speaker 1: react in the case of a crisis. One of the

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Speaker 1: really interesting things about him, though, is how he got elected.

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Speaker 1: So he was in a television series that he wrote

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Speaker 1: and produced called Servant of the People, in which he

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Speaker 1: played an ordinary school teacher who accidentally becomes president Um.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's a long story and the plot it's complicated,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and but a lot of the the

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Speaker 1: television series does is it makes fun of how Ukrainians

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Speaker 1: are overrespectful of power. You know, once he was a

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Speaker 1: sort of, you know, an ordinary guy. He becomes president.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly people start genuflecting to him, and you know, he's

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Speaker 1: mystified by that and so on. And I think one

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Speaker 1: of the things that he's understood is that the way

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Speaker 1: to reach people is to be an ordinary person, to

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Speaker 1: have ordinary emotions. And in a country that's used to

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Speaker 1: feeling distance and sort of fear from the state and

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Speaker 1: from power, which they've had for you know, several hundred years.

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Speaker 1: Really he has broken through and he you know, HiT's

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Speaker 1: what he's wearing. He's wearing a T shirt, not not fatigues.

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Speaker 1: He's not pretending to be a general. He's just an

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Speaker 1: ordinary person who's fighting this war, like so many are.

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Speaker 1: He uses the language of ordinary people. He doesn't talk

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Speaker 1: in kind of pompous tones. Um. He uses his own

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Speaker 1: phone to make the videos that he's showing to people,

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Speaker 1: so they're sort of it's unprofessional. I mean some of

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Speaker 1: that is orchestrated, but it's orchestrated with a desire to

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Speaker 1: be authentic, and it works because it is authentic. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so I think his the he's trying to inspire

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Speaker 1: people with bravery by acting out bravery himself. This is

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Speaker 1: what bravery looks like. Look here I am, here's my

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Speaker 1: chief of staff, here's the head of the parliament, and

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Speaker 1: we're all here. We're in Kiev. We're not going anywhere,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're not leaving the country. That was his

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Speaker 1: first big video, you know, the first or second night

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Speaker 1: of the war, and I think that has been really transformational.

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Speaker 1: I know that people in Ukraine now turn him on

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Speaker 1: every night, you know, he now makes a nightly video

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Speaker 1: and there's a kind of national However, people are now

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Speaker 1: getting videos because you know, whether it's through a telegram

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Speaker 1: channel or some other app but people are getting them,

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Speaker 1: watching them, and they're inspirational. I would say only one

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Speaker 1: thing though, which is that Ukraine has a long history

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Speaker 1: of being a kind of grassroots up country rather than

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Speaker 1: a leadership down country. And I do think that even

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Speaker 1: if anything happened to him, that they would keep fighting. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a it's it's it's what you're

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Speaker 1: watching is this kind of self organization, you know, this

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Speaker 1: territory army that people all kinds of people are now

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Speaker 1: joining who have no experience fighting in the past. That's

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Speaker 1: not just because of him, it's also you know, he

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Speaker 1: is he is learning from them as much as they

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Speaker 1: learned from him. So I think they would they would

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Speaker 1: be fighting even without him. And what about Russia. I

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Speaker 1: know it's so difficult to get accurate factual information if

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Speaker 1: you're in Russia, and we've seen a lot of protests,

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Speaker 1: we've seen people being arrested. Latest numbers I saw were

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Speaker 1: you know, in the you know, fifteen thousand plus area

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Speaker 1: of people have been thrown in jail for protesting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's ironic that in a time of so much

430
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: technology about information being conveyed, we're having a harder time

431
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: getting accurate information into Russia now than we did back

432
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: in the Cold War, the Soviet times, when we had

433
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: you know, radio free Europe, we had short wave, we

434
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: had lots of other, you know, ways of getting information.

435
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: How how do Russians get accurate information so that they

436
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: have some sense of what Putin is doing? So that

437
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: is an excellent question and a very very interesting one.

438
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: I testified in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and said

439
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: exactly this that one of the things we should be

440
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: thinking about doing now is hiring all of those Russian

441
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: journalists and television producers who are fleeing Moscow and employing

442
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: them to create a Russian satellite channel that could reach people,

443
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: um a little bit better. The Russians are trying to

444
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: cut off all access to the outside world, sort of

445
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: app by app and station by station. All of the

446
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: Russian journalists have now been expelled from Moscow who had

447
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: any independent standing. I spoke yesterday actually to a friend

448
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: of mine in Moscow who is she's sort of the

449
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: last liberal journalist standing and she says she doesn't want

450
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: to leave her book collection, which cash, but everyone she

451
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: knows has gone. Everybody's leaving, and so you know, I

452
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: really think it's the task now for our administration and

453
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: for other European governments to figuring out what we're gonna do.

454
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: Do we need Russian satellite station? As I discussed, do

455
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: we need to be thinking about digital samise dot? Should

456
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 1: there be people who are trying to organize community cations

457
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: inside Russia through email chains or through other kinds of connections, Um,

458
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: what is the best way to reach Russians? I mean

459
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of creative thinking going on right now,

460
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: you know, at the sort of lowest possible levels, as

461
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: people try and figure out exactly this problem. But um,

462
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: but it's not easy to solve. I mean, one almost

463
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: wishes for short wave radio is back, because at least

464
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: at least there was one channel, you know, on which

465
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: it was possible to hear things. Well. In fact, I

466
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: think I heard the BBC was going to dig out

467
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: their old shortwave you know, the radio communications equipment to

468
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: see if they could actually get into Russia. Well, and

469
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: I just have to close by number one thanking you

470
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: because honestly, you are such a clear and level headed

471
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: source of insight and knowledge when it comes to this

472
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: part of the world. But I also have to ask,

473
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: as you look at the threats to our future, not

474
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: just coming from Putin, but sadly sometimes coming from ourselves,

475
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: given your understanding and appreciate creation of history, are you optimistic?

476
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: So I am naturally pessimistic. I think anybody who spends

477
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: their life studying Soviet history has you know, has some issues.

478
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: But one of the conclusions I've recently come to um,

479
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: and this is particularly true in our country, is that

480
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: it's very irresponsible for someone like me to be pessimistic

481
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: about our country and about the future of democracy, because

482
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: really what happens tomorrow depends on choices that we make today.

483
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: So nothing is inevitable. Liberal democracy is not inevitable, but

484
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: also decline is not inevitable. Autocracy is not inevitable, And

485
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: so I think we owe it, particularly to younger people,

486
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: to continue to be optimistic. It's only by thinking about

487
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,479
Speaker 1: a better and more positive future and then figuring out

488
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: how to get there that we will be able to

489
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: achieve it. So I remain an optimist. I believe that

490
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: people are good and that they want to create better societies,

491
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: and that people instinctively understand what's justice and what's injustice.

492
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: And you know, I do believe that if we try,

493
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: and if we if we want it to happen, that

494
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: Ukraine can win and liberal democracy can prevail. From your lips,

495
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: my friend, I cannot thank you enough and apple Bomb,

496
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: and I hope you wouldn't mind if I set up

497
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: my own channel with you to stay in touch with you,

498
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: because occasionally I do get a chance to, you know,

499
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: kibbits with those who are making these literally life and

500
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: death decisions for Ukrainians, for our future. And I so

501
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: value your insight and I look forward to continuing the conversation.

502
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: Thank you. It was a real pleasure to speak to you.

503
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And Apple Bomb's newest book is

504
00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: called Twilight of Democracy The Seductive Lure of a Oraitarianism.

505
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: I hope you will all pick it up and recommend

506
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: it to your friends. There's a lot that sadly applies

507
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: right here in our own country. We'll be right back now.

508
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: I know our next guest pretty well. Mike McFall served

509
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: as America's ambassador to Russia, starting when I was Secretary

510
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: of State. Before that, he served on the National Security

511
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: Council at the White House. He's a professor of international

512
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: relations at Stanford University and also an international affairs analyst

513
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: for NBC News. Hello, Mike, see you. Oh well, please

514
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: call me Hillary my friend. I could call you ambassador,

515
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: you could call me secretary. We sound very official. I

516
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: think I do that. Well. It is so great to

517
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: have on this podcast, Ambassador Mike McFall. And to get

518
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: us started, I I want to set the stage for

519
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: our listeners. Can you describe what our relationship with Russia

520
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: was like when you and I joined the Obama administration

521
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine and how it has evolved. Well, first,

522
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: it's great to see you again. Um. So, when we

523
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: came into the government, everybody needs to remember there was

524
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: a different president. President Vieira was the president. Putin was

525
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: the prime minister. Russia just invaded Georgia in August two thight,

526
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: and US Russia relations were at a at that time,

527
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: at its lowest point ever since the collapse of the

528
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: Soviet Union. Um, the Bush administration had a pretty tepid response.

529
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say, uh, they did not

530
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: sanction anybody. They didn't send military assistance. You can think

531
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: about all the things we're debating now they did not do.

532
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: And we came in several months later under the banner

533
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: of the Reset, as you know. Well uhm. But but

534
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: I think it's been misunderstood what the reset was about.

535
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: The reset was about trying to get some things done

536
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: that we're good for the American people and good for

537
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: our security interests. And you played a central role in that.

538
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: Things like the New Start Treaty reducing you know, thirty

539
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: percent of the nuclear weapons in the world, new supply

540
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: routes for our soldiers in Afghanistan, uh sanctions on Iran

541
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: the most comprehensive sanctions ever multilateral at that time. I

542
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: add one more thing to that early period that I

543
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: think is important for your listeners to understand, is that

544
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: why we were doing all that cooperation, we were not

545
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: checking our values at the door. You personally and in particular,

546
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: I want to make make sure people understand that that

547
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: us to say that when you traveled to Russia, you

548
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: met with the government and med Vieta fin Putin, but

549
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: then you also met with human rights activists and civil

550
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: society leaders. When President Obama did that. He did the

551
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: same two thousand nine, his his first trip there as president.

552
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: He first day was government, second day civil society. That

553
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: was our policy, right, dual track engagement. And by the way,

554
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: when all that was happening in the mid VIETA f years,

555
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: it was no big deal. You know. Obama had a

556
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: roundtable with all the chief opposition leaders, so did you,

557
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: and it was kind of no big deal. It was

558
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: not it was not news. It's important to remember we

559
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: were at least in a position where we were talking

560
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: with and even negotiating with the then president of Russia.

561
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: What happened? How did we get from there to here?

562
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: In your expert opinion, two things changed, very consequential. One,

563
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: Putin decided to run for re election to become president again.

564
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: He thought, you know, mid vietnif was drinking too much

565
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: reset kool aid. From his point of view, he's getting

566
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: too soft with us. And then in between the time

567
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: he announced that he was running, So he announces in

568
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: September two thousand eleven, the elections in March two thousand twelve,

569
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: and in between there was a parliamentary election and it

570
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: was stolen kind of you know, falsified five kind of

571
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: the normal levels. Just so you know, I remember sitting

572
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: in the situation room. It's like, there's no big deal.

573
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: There's just a normal Russian election under Vladimir Putin. But

574
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: two things happen, and one of them was you were

575
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: directly responsible for one. You issued a statement about those

576
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: elections not being free and fair. I think you were

577
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: in Vilnos at the time, if I'm not mistaken. I

578
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: was actually at an os c E meeting, So that's right.

579
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: You know, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe,

580
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: and one of the goals of American to plomacy literally

581
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: since post World War Two was to promote and protect

582
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: free and fair elections exactly, And I remember it vividly.

583
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: Just say, you know, Hillary, because I was at my

584
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: son's football game in Maryland and trying to find a

585
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: quiet space to speak to your eight at the time,

586
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: Jake Sullivan, because I was the guy that cleared that

587
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: statement for the White House on a Saturday, and your

588
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: statement plus Russians going out onto the streets to protest

589
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: that uh falsified election. Right first, five hundred and five thousand,

590
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: and hundreds of thousands of people protesting. First time you've

591
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: seen that kind of protesting in Russia since nine the

592
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: year of the Soviet Union collapsed, and Putin put those

593
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: two things together and he said, ah ha, there's a

594
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: threat to my regime here, and it's Hillary Clinton's fault.

595
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: It's the West fault. And I really think, you know,

596
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: he's paranoid about democracy, right with with good reason, by

597
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: the way, but that became the drama that leads to

598
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: the events today because two years after those protests, there

599
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: were major protests in Ukraine. By the way, I think

600
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: you're in another meeting in Europe when Yanakovich was supposed

601
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 1: to come sign an EU agreement and he got cold

602
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: feet at the time, and he's, you know, because Putin

603
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: put a lot of pressure on him. By that time.

604
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: I was working in Moscow and I remember they gave

605
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: him a big financial aid package to not sign that agreement.

606
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: And Covi was that at that time, the president of Ukraine.

607
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: So that for people who may not know right, right,

608
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: and he was coming to and I want to say

609
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 1: another meeting that you were at, if I'm not mistaken, Yeah,

610
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: I was in Ukraine. I actually I remember I was.

611
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: I was in Ukraine, and you know, there was such

612
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: a sense of hope and optimism, particularly among young Ukrainians,

613
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: and you know, their hopes were to move toward Europe.

614
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: They wanted to be part of the European Union and

615
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: that was a separate issue from NATO, that they wanted

616
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: to be considered Europeans. Uh, They're in literally the largest

617
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: landmass country other than Russia that is in Europe, and

618
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: they wanted to look west right. Well, and that's exactly

619
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: what happened. Janakovic did not sign that accession agreement with

620
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: European unions and a journalists then turned parliamentary in his

621
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: name is Mustafa got onto Facebook and said this is outrageous.

622
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: We are European. He said, come to the streets, and eventually, uh,

623
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: they came to the streets, and that was again for

624
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: putin there. It is again mass mobilization. He doesn't believe

625
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: that people can do this on their own. There's got

626
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: to be the hand of the United States and the CIA.

627
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: It then got violent. As you remember, by this time

628
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 1: you were no longer Secretary of State, as I recalled,

629
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: but that I left February one, right, right, So this

630
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 1: had happened, you know, after Secretary Carrey was in place.

631
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: But the mobilization again. That's what they called the Revolution

632
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: of dignity. Janikovich fled and Putin decided, okay, here's the

633
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: the hidden hand of the Americans again, and that's when

634
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: he invaded Ukraine. The first time. Sees Crimea supported the separatists,

635
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: but ever since he's been trying to undermine that democratic

636
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: government that took over, ever since, through all kinds of

637
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: different ways. And as he said the night before he invaded,

638
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: I watched that speech. It was just rant all over

639
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 1: the place. Took fifty eight minutes for him to make

640
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: his argument um. And by the way, you know, as

641
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: a professor, let me say, if you need fifty eight

642
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: minutes to make your argument, you don't know what your

643
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: argument is, um. But there were two seeds of it

644
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: in there, and to this day, this is what it

645
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 1: is about. He said, we're gonna destroy the Ukrainian army

646
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: and we're gonna do denazification, which means to kill Mr Zelenski,

647
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: to pipe out his government. So this is about him

648
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: trying to roll back the Revolution of dignity from two

649
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: thousand four. Mike, I want to I want to go

650
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: back a little bit because I know you were born

651
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: and raised in Montana. How did you become interested in

652
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: Russia and become a Russian expert? Wow, we're going way back.

653
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: Uh so yeah, I grew up in Montana, never been

654
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: to California, let alone abroad, until as a seventeen year

655
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: old kid, I flew to Stanford. I was an undergraduate

656
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: at Stanford, but I got interested in Hillary in high school.

657
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: I was on the high school debate team, and my

658
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: junior year in Bozeman Senior High the topic was to

659
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: improve US trade policy, and so my partner and I

660
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: ran a case, as they're called in debate, to grant

661
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union most Favored Nation status. That was our case,

662
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: by the way, something I later disagreed with, but at

663
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: the time that's how I got interested. And when I

664
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: showed up, you know, it was the fall of nineteen

665
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: eight one, so President Reagan had just been elected. Uh

666
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: he was talking about, you know, the Evil Empire, and

667
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: it felt like a very scary time to me as

668
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: a young kid. And so fall quarter of my freshman

669
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: year I enrolled in two classes that really had a

670
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: big impact on my life. First year Russian, which I

671
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: then took you know for many years, and then you know,

672
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: of course, on how nations deal with each other. And

673
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: I was animated by an idea that that, you know,

674
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: in different ways, has been a part of my thinking

675
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: ever since. You know, I wanted to see the Soviets themselves.

676
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: You know, I was wondering, well, what is this about

677
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: the evil Empire? And I'm not sure I believe Ronald Reagan,

678
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: and so I wanted to get to the Soviet Union.

679
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: And so, you know, most kids at Stamford they go

680
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: to London, Paris, Florence for their junior year abroad. At

681
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: the end of my sophomore year, I went to Leninggrad.

682
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: I went to Leningrad State University. And you gotta remember,

683
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: like this is imagine that phone call to my mom.

684
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: H you thought that California was a communist country, you know,

685
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: and suddenly her sons going to you know, the evil Empire.

686
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: But and you know, basically ever since that, that was

687
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: how I got kind of interested in thinking about the place.

688
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: That's really an interesting story because you've been evolving ever since,

689
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: and you ended up being our ambassador to Russia. And

690
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: I remember very well the challenges that you and your

691
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: family faced, because I think, Mike, you also posed a

692
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: real challenge, a real, in their view, threat to their

693
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: mentality starting with Putin, but going on down, you wanted

694
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: to live your life. Your kids were with you. Initially,

695
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: you were engaged in the community, you were on social media,

696
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: and then we started to get very troubling, you know,

697
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: messages about how the government of Russia and that had

698
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: to start with Putin was really making life hard for you.

699
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that, because I

700
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: think again, people who are just for the first time

701
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: maybe tuning in because Ukraine is so dramatic and so horrific,

702
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: may not have at all the background that you certainly

703
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: do about how we ended up where we are. Um So,

704
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: remember we left out a few chapters of my history

705
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: and I'll go through them quickly. But you know, my

706
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: initial time in the Soviet Union, I was like, Oh,

707
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: this place isn't so bad. I went back in eight

708
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: five understanding Russian better, and I got deeper into the society,

709
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: and then I came out a militant anti communist and

710
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: a militant pro democrat. And then I lived in the

711
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: Soviet Union. Um I was a fulbright scholar. You know,

712
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 1: that's when there was mass mobilization, democratic movement, and I

713
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: worked with a group that you probably know, the National

714
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: Democratic Institute, and it was just a you just got

715
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 1: to remember. It was such a euphoric moment. I remember

716
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: because you know, the Berlin Wall fell in nineteen eighty

717
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: nine and then the years you're describing um led to

718
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: the fall of the Soviet Union. So at that period,

719
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: groups like NDI and and you know, I then opened

720
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: the office in Moscow, the National Democratic Institute funded by

721
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: the United States government, actually yes, and it's affiliated with

722
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party, and we were there to help do

723
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: political party development. But we were not We were there

724
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: at the invitation of the government. I think that's the

725
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: part that people get wrong. They wanted us there, and

726
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 1: you know, I was a rock star. We were these young,

727
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: idealistic people and got to know, you know, people that

728
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: later became the opposition to Putin when I showed up

729
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: two decades later. And I tell you that piece because

730
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: Putin knows that. But fast forward to when I showed

731
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: up as ambassador. You know, before I had gotten there,

732
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: these massive protests had been taking place, and Putin went

733
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: out of his way to criticize you personally. He said

734
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: that you had sent a signal to those protesters, and

735
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: so I arrived right in the in the as that

736
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: was all happening. And you know, I just I remember

737
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: my last meeting with you before I left. You told

738
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,439
Speaker 1: me three things, he said, be strong, don't forget about

739
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: our values. And you are the person that told me

740
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: to get on Twitter. I don't know if you remember that,

741
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: but you said, you said, And I'm still on Twitter,

742
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: by the way, and it's an important platform for me.

743
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: But but your argument was, we gotta reach out to

744
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: Russian society, we gotta engage with them. So I did that,

745
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: but the conditions and change, right. It was one thing

746
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: to meet the opposition when mid Vietnef was president, when

747
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: we traveled together, Um, you probably don't remember, but one

748
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: of the times we traveled together, like I want to say,

749
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten or so, I was actually meeting

750
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: with a group of opposition leaders in the hotel room

751
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: and you walked by, and I grabbed your eye and

752
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: you came over and you you you did a vodka

753
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: shot with them all. One of them. One of them

754
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: is a guy named Boris and himself who who five

755
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: years later was assassinated. But you made a huge impression

756
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 1: on them. And it was you know, but it wasn't

757
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: dangerous then, you know that that was a different era.

758
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: By the time I showed up as ambassador, Putin was

759
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 1: completely you know, nervous about his regime. So they used

760
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: me as a target of you know, to say that

761
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: I was sent by you and Obama to go orchestrate

762
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: the revolution and so that that was my faith. Yeah. No,

763
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: I mean, his his paranoia just seemed to grow and grow.

764
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 1: And you know, there's been a lot of armchair psychologists

765
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's happened to Putin? Why Putin

766
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 1: is so aggressive and really risk taking right now? Does

767
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: he have some health issues physical mental? Some people who

768
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: said he looks puffy, looks like he's taking steroids. I mean,

769
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: do you have any um, I don't know about insight,

770
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: maybe too you know, too much to ask for, but

771
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: any observations about what's going on with him personally. So

772
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: a couple of things, and it's speculation, of course, right.

773
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: But one remember, even when I was ambassador, we were

774
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: writing lots of cables back explaining how isolated he was.

775
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 1: Back then. That's eight years ago, right, Uh, you know,

776
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: when when you came out to see him as Secretary

777
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: of State. We had to drive out this compound. Right.

778
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: We didn't meet in the Kremlin. That's because because he

779
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: always met all of his people out in his country state,

780
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: and he would sit out there, this is several years ago,

781
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: barely meet with his advisers, not meet with many foreigners.

782
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: It was a major deal that he would meet with you.

783
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: Very few leaders in the world even back then, had

784
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: FaceTime with him. And he's been in power for twenty

785
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: two years, right, So when you get to be in

786
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: power that long, you don't think that anybody can tell

787
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: you anything. And COVID added to his isolation. Uh, he

788
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: doesn't get very good information. He just gets this secret

789
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: information from the KGB guys, and it's all distorted about Ukraine.

790
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 1: You know, he's already removed some of his intelligence generals

791
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: because because he got bad information about how the Ukrainians

792
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: were going to receive them. So I think he's been

793
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: very isolated for a long time, has been starting to

794
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: believe his own propaganda. And then you know, has this

795
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 1: other piece that I think is important for people to understand.

796
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: He thinks of himself as a great you know, Catherine

797
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: the Great, Peter the Great Restorer of the Russian Empire,

798
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: wants to bring the Slavic people's together, as he explained

799
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: before he invaded Ukraine, and fundamentally doesn't understand Ukrainians like

800
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: he just doesn't understand they aren't just people with an

801
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: accent but basically Russians, right, that's what he thinks. Um.

802
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: And he drastically miscalculated in thinking that this was going

803
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: to be a cake walk. And you can see he's

804
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: he's gradually getting more and more angry, saying more and

805
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: more crazy things, talking about the internal they call it

806
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: the fifth column, right, the people inside Russia. That's an

807
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: all communists sort of Leninist Stalinist term, is exactly it is.

808
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: That was scary, especially because I think of, you know,

809
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: my Russian friends who he's thinking of, um, and guys

810
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: like Mr Novaldy, who's you know, in jail right now

811
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: and from jail calling on Russia to protest this horrible war.

812
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: So he feels like he's getting more and more unhinged. Um.

813
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: I don't think he's suicidal. So I think we should

814
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: be you know, we need to be firm and not

815
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, these threats he's making about nuclear weapons. We

816
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: we should make sure that they haven't changed their policy

817
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: on that. But we should also not overreact to his threats.

818
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: I think at times, you know, he says, well, if

819
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 1: you if we send these planes, these MiG twenty nine,

820
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: he'll escalate. Well, what does that mean? He's going to escalate? Like,

821
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: I think we need to be a little stronger and

822
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: more confident. I agree with that. So I agree with that. Yeah, No,

823
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, that's what I wanted to ask you.

824
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: I think that the Biden administration um and like like you,

825
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: I've I've talked to some of the people in it.

826
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: Many of them were in the Obama administration, even the

827
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: Klinton administration. So more for you, they're they're all I

828
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: think about it, They all for you. Yeah, and they're

829
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: they're full that we know and respect. And I thought

830
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 1: that the initial phases of their reactions were really very strong,

831
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: and I was impressed by their willingness to release intelligence

832
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: in order to undercut what was clearly a plan of

833
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: Putin's for a false flag operation to make it seem

834
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: like somehow the Ukrainians were attacking Russians and therefore he

835
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: had to go in and protect the Russians. So I

836
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: do think that the accelerated pace of providing lethal weaponry

837
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 1: to Ukraine is really important. But what do you think, Uh, Mike, again,

838
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: it's just you and me kind of you know, throwing

839
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: stuff up on the wall. See what we'll stick. Um,

840
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: what should the US and NATO be doing in the

841
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: days and weeks and months ahead? And second part of that,

842
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: have you been surprised at how strongly, Um, the Ukrainians

843
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 1: have defended themselves. Well, let's let's lilip around. Let's start

844
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: with the Ukrainians and then what we should do to

845
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: help them. So I'm it's been amazing, right. I mean

846
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: the institute I run out here at Stanford, Hillary, we

847
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: actually have been training activists in Ukraine starting in two

848
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: thousand five. We had our first fellow from there from Ukraine.

849
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: We're up to we had now have three hundred a

850
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: lums throughout Ukraine. So people think of me as a

851
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 1: Russia guy. But um, you know, I wrote my first

852
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 1: book about Ukraine in two thousand and six, and because

853
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: of that network, I've been in touch with Ukrainians throughout

854
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 1: this entire war. UM. I hosted presidents a Lensky here

855
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: at Stanford last September, the only place he spoke publicly.

856
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: Is first Ukrainian president to come to California, so I

857
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: got to know him. You know, we had a great

858
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: day together, and he's a very engaging guy, and he's

859
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,919
Speaker 1: funny and you know, but nobody knew how he would

860
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: respond in this moment. Right. He's a new guy to politics,

861
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: and I just think he's a heroic figure. I spoke

862
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: to him just fourth five days ago. By chance. I

863
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: was hitting the Skype button to talk to one of

864
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: our alums who works for him, his name Serge, and

865
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: the screen came on just like we're talking, and there

866
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: was Zelensky and his bunker and he said, Mike, you

867
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: look just like, yeah, you looked what I was in California.

868
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: I said, Mr President, you don't, uh, you know, he's

869
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: got his scraggly beard and his T shirt. Um. But Hillary,

870
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: let me tell you honestly, that was not by accident.

871
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 1: I was speaking to two members of Congress just four

872
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: hours later, and that shows you some of their savvy

873
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: of their public communications strategy. They knew that, and they

874
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: knew twenty minute conversation with Zelenski before I went to

875
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: join Speaker Pelosi would have an effect on what I said,

876
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: and it did so the battlefield, they're doing heroic work

877
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: on the battlefield. I also think in terms of public communications,

878
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 1: the speech he gave to Congress brilliant, and that's why,

879
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: in my view, we should do everything we can do

880
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 1: to help them win. And by win, I mean to

881
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 1: fight the Russians to a stalemate, so they have to negotiate.

882
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: And what I would say on the strategy so far,

883
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: I'd say three of the four things they've done really well,

884
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: uh and they have to keep doing it. So strengthening NATO,

885
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: moving our forces and material to our frontline states great

886
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: A plus military assistance historic levels. We've never done something

887
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: as big. I always wanted more. I think they should

888
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: have sent those big twenty nine for instance, and they

889
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: should have done that quietly, not in the public back

890
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: and forth, but but but generally that I support that.

891
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,240
Speaker 1: And the sanctions. Very impressed with what they've done on sanctions,

892
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: that's been terrific. But I would say two things. One

893
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: the communications inside Russia we're not doing as well as

894
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 1: we need to. We need to get mothers of those

895
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: soldiers to understand what's going on to Ukraine so that

896
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: when the next draft date comes up, and it's coming

897
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: up I think April one. They say, you know, I

898
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: don't want to give my kid to this, this horrible war.

899
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: And that's hard. I don't want to trivialize how hard

900
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: that is, because they're closing down that space. But we

901
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: got to get more creative on that. And as you know,

902
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: the professor that I am, when I talk to my

903
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: our colleagues in the government, I say, okay, you've got

904
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: straight a's right now. But that was just the first midterm.

905
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: We got ways to go here, folks. And um, you

906
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: know you put six hundred oligarcs on the sanctions list,

907
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: Well there's a list of six thousand, um, and so

908
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: you've gotta keep at it, and especially on the weapons

909
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: and and sanctions. It's not sufficient just to hold. You've

910
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: got to keep ratcheting up the pressure on the economy

911
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: and keep giving them the weapons to defend themselves. Oh.

912
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 1: I completely agree with that, Mike. Um. Specifically, what more

913
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: could be and should be done in terms of getting

914
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: information into Russia. We know, you know the Kremlin is

915
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: trying to block any kind of channels, but there's so

916
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: much I mean, this is not you know fifty, there's

917
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 1: lots of ways of getting information in so specifically, what

918
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: would you advise not just the American government, but all

919
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: the NATO governments, any allied government and and individuals as

920
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: well as corporations. Yes, well, one thing we should do

921
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: immediately is to help too. In particular, I can be

922
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: very specific. TV Rain and Echo musk V the radio station.

923
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: By the way, you were on Echo Musky. I remember,

924
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: I remember we went to the studio. I remember they

925
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 1: have your photo on the wall, just so you know.

926
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: After that, so when I would go there as ambassador,

927
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: I would walk by it and that, you know, just

928
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: to for people who don't know, this is the number

929
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: one radio multimedia companies started in this iconic Echo Muscovy.

930
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: I mean everybody listens to millions of listeners throughout the country.

931
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 1: They just were shut down a couple of weeks ago,

932
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 1: and TV Rain is the last independent TV program. Their

933
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: reconst tuting themselves outside of the country. And we should

934
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: support them and they'll figure out through VPNs and you know,

935
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: various ways to how to penetrate their cyber wall. It's

936
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: not as good as the Chinese, they're not. They don't

937
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: have that in place. UM even more creatively, text messaging

938
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 1: is a very important information push. We know that from

939
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: our elections, right. Um, opposition knows that inside Russia we're

940
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: not doing enough in terms of that kind of messaging.

941
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 1: And that's that's complicated, and you know who does it

942
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 1: and what messaging. But I think in this moment, that's

943
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: another place that we we want to be present. You know,

944
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: Arnold Schwarzenegger did this video a few days ago, and

945
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: you know he's very popular in Russia. That's what I've heard,

946
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: and the video was really power. You've seen it, Yeah,

947
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: I just saw it. I saw I saw it on Twitter. Yeah,

948
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: well there you go. Umuh. And by the way, Twitter's blocked,

949
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: but there's still through VPNs those all those platforms book

950
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: on tact Day their Facebook like platform. I worry about YouTube.

951
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: By the way, YouTube is a very important platform inside Russia.

952
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: I predict that will be the next one that that

953
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: Putin goes after. But back to Arnold like that, he's

954
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: an iconic figure in Russia, so for him to do that,

955
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: pieces of that interview will eventually show up on people's smartphones. Um,

956
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: And we gotta think of other ways to do kind

957
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: of you know, creative things like that. One other thing

958
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: that's happening. For instance, just to give you a flavor

959
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: of what Ukrainians and Russian opposition folks are doing. They're saying,

960
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: go on to restaurant websites and when you give reviews,

961
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: start writing, stop the war, right, So the little things

962
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: like that, just you gotta you gotta be full in.

963
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: That's the part I think we need to do more

964
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 1: work on. Well, you pass that on, I'll pass it

965
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: and we'll see if we can get you know, more

966
00:57:53,920 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 1: of a reaction. We'll be back right after this quick break.

967
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: Can you really describe for Americans why we have so

968
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: much at stake in what's going on in Ukraine? Assuming

969
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: that Ukraine continues this heroic resistance we're facing, you know,

970
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: weeks maybe months of attacks and stalemates and everything that

971
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: goes with it, continuing threats from Putin? Why should Americans

972
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: keep caring? Why should they be willing to sacrifice whether

973
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: it's increasing gas prices or other economic blowback from these

974
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 1: very comprehensive sanctions. Yeah, great question and a hard one

975
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 1: to answer. But let me frame it the way I

976
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: think about it. This is a fight between autocrats and democrats. Uh,

977
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: it is a fight of ideas as we're talking about before.

978
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: Putin was never was never really threatened by NATO expansion.

979
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: He was threatened by democratic expansion, and he always got

980
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: h you know, it was always democratic expansion led to

981
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: him complaining about NATO. So this is a fight about that.

982
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: And let me just paint two scenarios. If Zelenski wins

983
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: and and there's a stalemate and Putin is repelled, that

984
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: has lots of important positive consequences from American national security interests. Right.

985
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: First of all, our NATO allies will be less nervous

986
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: than they are today because he'll be pushed back. Our

987
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: allies and friends in Asia will feel more secure. Uh,

988
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: Shijing Ping better think twice about invading Taiwan. Looking at

989
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: what a fiasco what he thought was the third most

990
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: powerful army in the in the world, one that he

991
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: cooperates with, one that they have a lot of weapons

992
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: systems together, right Uh, And out look at how morally

993
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: they're performing in Ukraine. And if they lose there, that's

994
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: good for deterring China from invading Taiwan. And by the way,

995
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: if the sanctions help to keep the pressure on the economy,

996
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: she's better thing twice about invading and facing those sanctions.

997
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,959
Speaker 1: That's a good thing, but the opposite is also true.

998
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: If Putin wins and those fighting for democracy lose inside Ukraine,

999
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: that has negative consequences all around the world as well.

1000
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: Our NATO allies will need more reassurance, and that means

1001
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 1: more military spending from US to help make sure that

1002
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: Putin doesn't attack them. Our allies in the Middle East

1003
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: will be nervous, uh and start hedging their bets. You know,

1004
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: maybe we need to work with the Russians because we can't.

1005
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: These Americans are not so reliable. I'm thinking of Israel

1006
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: first and foremost, and out in Asia the same thing,

1007
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: like um, you know, those are fence sitters. Will think, well,

1008
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: maybe we better lean more towards the Chinese because the

1009
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: Americans didn't prevail. So I think the consequences actually are

1010
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: much bigger than just in Ukraine. Winning has a very

1011
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: positive consequence in terms of how other people will deal

1012
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,479
Speaker 1: with us in the future. Well, that's very well said,

1013
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: and I agree completely and the and the only additional

1014
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: point I would make is that I think it's also

1015
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: good for our own democracy here at home because the

1016
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: apologists and frankly, shall we say, fellow travelers of a nationalistic,

1017
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: even violent opposition as we saw in January six in

1018
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: our own country will have to think twice. Their base

1019
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: will be rattled and uh, those who promote undermining our institutions,

1020
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: ignoring the rule of law, trying to undermine our elections,

1021
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: everything that we know, unfortunately is part of the agenda

1022
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 1: of the opposition in America. I think that too will

1023
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 1: be you know, shape absolutely. I mean, don't forget. I

1024
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: don't need to tell you, but maybe your listeners have forgotten.

1025
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 1: Putin's been trying to undermine democracy for a long long time,

1026
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: including our own democracy, including undermining you personally during our elections.

1027
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: For a reason. I mean, you know, small D democratic ideas,

1028
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 1: small L liberal ideas are a threat to him, and

1029
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 1: leaders around the world, including you, that support those are

1030
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: threats to him. And for years he's been cultivating ties

1031
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: with I call it the illiberal international rights populist nationalist

1032
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: leaders you know, Urban and Hungary, Salibanian, Italy, Lepin and

1033
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: France Farage in the UK and Mr Trump and his

1034
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, the people around him, the Steve Bannons of

1035
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 1: the world. They have been He's been making progress. I

1036
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 1: think the good news out of this horrible crisis is

1037
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: it's like you just said, it's a lot harder to

1038
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: play those games and line up with Putin, But that's

1039
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: all the more important if he if he wins victorious,

1040
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: all those kind of groups will now you know, start

1041
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: sprouting again and say, well he's evil, but you know

1042
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 1: he's a strong leader. We can't we can't let them

1043
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: go back to that we've got. That's why Putin has

1044
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: to lose in Ukraine. And I guess the final thing

1045
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: I would ask you, Mike, is does does Putin and

1046
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: his regime survived this win or lose? So? Um? You know,

1047
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: I'm a political scientist, and I would say we're not

1048
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: very good at predicting the future. Um. I also worked

1049
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: five years in the government. I'd said, the CIA is

1050
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: not very good at it either. Just so so we

1051
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 1: they didn't get the Green Revolution in Iran, right, or

1052
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: the Arab spring rights, or the Russian protests are Ukraine.

1053
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 1: But so, but with that humble caveat, let me let

1054
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:50,479
Speaker 1: me say two things I know I'm very certain of one.

1055
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely sure that the Ukrainians eventually will win. I

1056
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 1: don't know when they were gonna win but Putin doesn't

1057
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: have the army to occupy this country, the largest country

1058
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: in Europe forty million people. Stalin had millions in the

1059
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 1: Red Army when he put his puppet regimes in place

1060
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 1: after forty five. Putin does not have that capability, and

1061
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 1: he doesn't have the ideas. Stalin was repelling real fascists,

1062
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 1: and when he liberated countries, he said he could make

1063
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 1: the argument, we're building a new society communists, and he

1064
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: attracted just enough lackeys to help him build those places.

1065
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: Putin doesn't have that. So Ukrainians will fight door by

1066
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: door with guns, acts of non violence, civic resistance. There's

1067
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: no doubt on my mind. Eventually though, they will repel

1068
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 1: putin soldiers. I just don't know when that should be.

1069
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: We should hasten that. But you asked a different question, yes,

1070
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: about Russia, And here's the way I think about it.

1071
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the bresne era. You know, Bresnef

1072
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: was in power for almost twenty years, one of the

1073
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 1: longest serving general secretaries in the early phases, you know,

1074
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: he was he was kind of he did okay in

1075
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 1: the sixties, and then the seventies came along, and he

1076
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: went on this run victories where communist regimes, we're taking

1077
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: over the world, right, so Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and then

1078
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: Angola and Mozambique in Africa, Nicaragua, even in our hemisphere.

1079
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 1: That was seventy nine and so he had like five wins.

1080
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 1: And by the way, Hillary, we kind of looked like

1081
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: we did recently, right, We were divided amongst ourselves, lots

1082
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: of you know, civil rights movement, anti war movement, Nixon.

1083
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 1: These were times where we didn't look like we were

1084
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 1: so strong ourselves, right, So a lot of parallels. And

1085
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 1: then bres overreached. He invaded Afghanistan and he thought it

1086
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 1: was gonna be a k k walk, you know, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan.

1087
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: We're just gonna add one more stand to They called

1088
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 1: it the Sixteenth Republic, and we all know how that ended.

1089
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 1: It was a disaster for the Soviet Union. And it

1090
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 1: was one, not the only factor, but it was one

1091
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 1: of the factors. That was the beginning of the end

1092
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union. Took a decade, but but it

1093
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 1: it helped unravel things. And I think this is the

1094
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: beginning of the end of of Putinism. Even if Putin

1095
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 1: survives in power, which he may very well do, it's

1096
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 1: a pretty horrific dictatorship. But he's lots the elites, Hillary,

1097
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, like, I'm in touch with Russians

1098
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: all the time, including people that were kind of pro Putin. Right,

1099
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 1: he violated the contract, which was I'll be your dictator

1100
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: in return for a stable economy. Well that's over now,

1101
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 1: and I just think it will eventually, you know, maybe

1102
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 1: it'll take one more leader that won't have the authority.

1103
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 1: But I do think this is the beginning of the end.

1104
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: I just don't know how long that process will be.

1105
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: But it's very hard for me to imagine a Putin

1106
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 1: like figure in power in Russia twenty years from now.

1107
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: I think that's really unlikely. So that's a sliver of

1108
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: good news. We just don't know when that good news

1109
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 1: gets delivered. Yeah, no, And we just have to keep

1110
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 1: our nerve and be patient and be smart about, you know,

1111
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: the strategies we employ and absolutely stay the course. Well,

1112
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 1: I can't tell you what a delight it is for

1113
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: me to have this time to talk with you, Mike,

1114
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 1: and I really look to you for you know, interpretation

1115
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 1: and guidance about how we can stay the course. And

1116
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 1: thank you so much for you know, sharing this time

1117
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 1: with me and our listeners, really enjoying Hillary. Let's do

1118
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 1: it again sometime. Thank you. Bye. Mike mcfall's most recent

1119
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 1: book is From Cold War to Hot Peace, an American

1120
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 1: Ambassador in Putin's Russia. You can also follow him like

1121
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 1: I do on Twitter at McFall. Recent events have proven

1122
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 1: what we know to be true. We are all connected,

1123
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 1: that what happens abroad matters here at home, and that

1124
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: an attack on democracy anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

1125
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: So as we stand with the people of Ukraine in

1126
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 1: the difficult weeks and probably months ahead, it's also important

1127
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: that we stand with one another and stand up for

1128
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 1: our democracy right here at home. Before I go, as

1129
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: a reminder, I'll be answering your questions on a future

1130
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 1: episode of You and Me both with a special guest.

1131
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 1: Maybe you've got more questions about what's going on with

1132
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,519
Speaker 1: Ukraine and Russia, or what's happening with attacks on our

1133
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: democracy right here in America, or maybe there's something more

1134
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 1: personal or lighthearted that you want to ask me. No

1135
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 1: matter what your questions might be, right to You and

1136
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:01,640
Speaker 1: Me Both pod at gmail dot com, or you can

1137
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 1: leave a voice message at two oh two seven eight

1138
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:08,800
Speaker 1: oh seven five one five and who knows, I might

1139
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:13,360
Speaker 1: just answer your question on the show You and Me

1140
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 1: Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're

1141
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 1: produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with

1142
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 1: help from Kuma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson,

1143
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow and Benita Zaman. Our

1144
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: engineer is Zack McNeice and original music is by Forrest Gray.

1145
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 1: If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone

1146
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 1: else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber,

1147
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You

1148
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 1: and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1149
01:09:55,600 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, take

1150
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 1: care of yourself and each other, and we'll be back

1151
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: next week. H