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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys be staring at you

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Speaker 1: all night? What do you say we get out of here?

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Speaker 1: What is it about this guy? When I feel his love,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm on top of the world. Everything

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Speaker 1: you don't know. I I think I must be lost.

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Speaker 1: That will shock you beyond your worst nightmare. I am innocent.

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Speaker 1: You don't actually believe this garbage, dude, It's in all

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Speaker 1: the papers, tip monkey, how did his name get on

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Speaker 1: that suspect list? I want to come see you. I

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Speaker 1: was really hoping you do that. This case is about

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Speaker 1: catching a monster. Ladies and gentlemen. I am that's innocent.

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Speaker 1: So start you are skating on thin ice, partner, you're

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Speaker 1: hearing the official trailer. That's zach Efron portraying extremely wicked,

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Speaker 1: chuckingly evil and vile Ted Bundy. I mean, see, Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: No telling how many millions of dollars were sunk into

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Speaker 1: the portrayal of serial rapist and killer Ted Bundy, But

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Speaker 1: the movie makes him out to be a glamour boy.

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Speaker 1: I don't really fault zach Efron for doing it. He's

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Speaker 1: just a squirrel trying to get a nut like everybody

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Speaker 1: else you know, making a living. But there's something so

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Speaker 1: bast awkwards with this Netflix at it again portraying a

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Speaker 1: cold blooded killer as a hero. Let me let me

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Speaker 1: get this straight, Jackie. Isn't that where they did Stephen

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Speaker 1: Avery making a murder? Okay? Joining right now an all

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Speaker 1: star panel. Cheryl McCullum, Cold Case Research Institute Director, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Katherine Ramsland, Professor Forensic Psychology at to Sale University, an

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Speaker 1: author of sixty books, including Inside the Minds of serial Killers,

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Speaker 1: Why They Kill on Amazon, incredible body of work. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky, investigative historian, author of Sons of Kine, A

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Speaker 1: History of serial Killers from stone Age to Present. Guys,

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Speaker 1: I really don't know what to say, but I guess

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Speaker 1: we should start with a very special guest joining us,

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Speaker 1: a woman who survived an attack by Ted Bundy, and

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Speaker 1: not very many people, not very many women can say that,

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Speaker 1: Kathy Kleiner. I want you to hear something from doctor

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Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky. Doctor Vronsky and I have talked in depth

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Speaker 1: about Bundy. Vronsky with me, author of Sons of Kine,

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Speaker 1: History of serial Killer stone Age to Present. Doctor Vronsky,

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Speaker 1: you taught me something about Ted Bundy. I didn't know,

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Speaker 1: and I had already read one book on Ted Bundy,

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Speaker 1: but when I talked to you much less covered the

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Speaker 1: case a million times, Doctor Vronsky. Ted Bundy would actually

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Speaker 1: take some of his victims, bathe their dead bodies, apply

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Speaker 1: hair and makeup. I'm not really sure what else I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine necrophilia, Doctor Vronsky, Could you please describe

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Speaker 1: that what we know about that aspect of serial killer

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. Well, you know that's one of the most

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Speaker 1: extreme and monstrous ends of the serial killer phenomenon. You know,

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Speaker 1: the necrophiles, the You know, Ted Bundy used to bring

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Speaker 1: some of the heads home. In fact, you know, in

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Speaker 1: that fireplace that you see in the new in the

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Speaker 1: Netflix show, right, he burns one of the heads in

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Speaker 1: in his girlfriend's apartment. Um. So you know the Netflix

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Speaker 1: part of the Ted Bundy we see, um is the

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Speaker 1: part that his victims never saw, or at least saw

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Speaker 1: the moment he first encountered him. Um. So you know,

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Speaker 1: we see the public version of of Ted Bundy, the

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Speaker 1: mask that he wore were Um. It's kind of regrettable

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Speaker 1: that they didn't delve deeper into what was beneath that mask. Um,

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Speaker 1: excuse me. I think it's regrettable the cops didn't shoot

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Speaker 1: him the first time they laid eyes on him. But

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Speaker 1: that's a whole another can of worms, because if he

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Speaker 1: had not escaped, not once, but twice, lives could have

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Speaker 1: been saved. But he managed to escape. Believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: he escaped law too times, two times. And look, I'm

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Speaker 1: not making the lawman and law women out to be

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Speaker 1: the bad guys. Okay, they didn't kill anybody. He did,

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Speaker 1: but this guy was so wildly I just want to

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Speaker 1: just pause. Kathy Kleiner, who I consider to be a friend,

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Speaker 1: and I've sat beside her as she tells her story,

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Speaker 1: and even talking about it right now is giving me

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Speaker 1: chills up and down my arms. I want to go

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Speaker 1: to Cheryl and doctor Kathine Ramslin, but I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go to Kathy first, because Kathy, just think about what

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Speaker 1: you survived as Vronsky. Doctor Peter Vronsky was talking actually

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Speaker 1: severing his victim's heads, and I really think the only

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Speaker 1: reason he burned the one victim's head in his girlfriend's

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Speaker 1: place was because she was coming home and he didn't

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Speaker 1: want her to find a head. I think you would

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Speaker 1: have kept it around frankly, but a plot bathing while

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Speaker 1: the hair of victims, dead women and then fixing their

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Speaker 1: hair and up carefully applying makeup to their face. I

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Speaker 1: guess having relations with them. And there was one victim,

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Speaker 1: a young girl who left out in the woods and

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Speaker 1: would go back to visit the body. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know what he was doing with that body. Nothing good,

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Speaker 1: you know, Kathy, when you look back, I know it's

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Speaker 1: all like horrible, terrible, dark blur. You were attacked in

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Speaker 1: your room at night, in your dorm room. I mean you're,

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Speaker 1: you know, sorority house room. But to be in the

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Speaker 1: room literally was so much evil. I mean Netflix got

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Speaker 1: that part right, extremely wicked, shockingly evil and viol I

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Speaker 1: mean you were in the room with the devil. What

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Speaker 1: happened Kathy that night was, as you said, big blur

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Speaker 1: of being scared and just not knowing. Of course, it

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Speaker 1: was Ted Bundy in the room with me. Our sorority

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Speaker 1: house had several rooms in it. We were on the

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Speaker 1: second floor and our room faced the back of the

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Speaker 1: sorority That also was where the parking lot was. When

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Speaker 1: I heard a noise, we went to bed around ten thirty,

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Speaker 1: my roommate nine, and sometime in the early morning I

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Speaker 1: heard something which woke me up a bit, and that

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Speaker 1: was our bedroom door opens. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait

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Speaker 1: right there, okay, all three of us here in the studio,

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Speaker 1: Jackie Riley and myself. When you said the bedroom door opened,

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Speaker 1: how many nightmares and fears has started with you thinking

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Speaker 1: your bedroom door opens? In your case, it was real it.

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Speaker 1: It came back to me many times as a soft sound.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a door opening and slamming against the ball.

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Speaker 1: It was a quiet opening that has bothered me over

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Speaker 1: the years. When I'm sleeping if I hear a noise

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Speaker 1: and my first thought is that someone's coming in the door,

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Speaker 1: even if the door isn't closed. That feeling, I don't

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Speaker 1: think we'll ever go away. It's something that I'll have

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Speaker 1: to live with, you know. When I was and still

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Speaker 1: to this day, I hate a cracked door because I

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Speaker 1: can't really see somebody standing on the other side of

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Speaker 1: it at night. Neither there ever has been or would be.

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Speaker 1: But after all the years of prosecuting, that's stuck in

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Speaker 1: my mind. Now I'm curious about and I know I'm

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Speaker 1: picking out one isolated detail. But I want you to

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Speaker 1: describe again that sound when you hear your bedroom door open.

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Speaker 1: It was, as I said, a soft sound. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: the door hitting against the wall. It was just we

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Speaker 1: had carpeting and it was more of a slide of

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Speaker 1: the door. You could hear. You could hear the door

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Speaker 1: knob being turned and the door being slightly opened, and

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Speaker 1: then completely open crime stories with Nancy Grace my experience,

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Speaker 1: I'd say phonography generally, but with the phonography the deals

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Speaker 1: on a violent level with the sexuality is that once

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Speaker 1: you become addicted to it, and I look at this

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Speaker 1: as a kind of addiction, like other kinds of addiction,

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Speaker 1: of addiction, I would keep looking for more, more explicit,

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Speaker 1: more grack signs of material. Like an addiction, You keep

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Speaker 1: creating something which is harder, harder, something which which gives

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Speaker 1: you a greater sense of excitement, until you reach the

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Speaker 1: point where the penocophy would go so far. He reached

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Speaker 1: that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if

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Speaker 1: maybe actually doing it. We'll give you that which is

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Speaker 1: beyond just reading about it or looking at it. How

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Speaker 1: long did you stay at that point before you actually

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Speaker 1: assaulted somewhere. Well, yeah, you see, that is a very

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Speaker 1: delicate point in my own development. And we're talking about something,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about having reached the point or a gray

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Speaker 1: area that surrounded that point over a course of it.

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Speaker 1: You don't, I will, I would say, I would say

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Speaker 1: a couple of years. Is he actually trying to blame

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Speaker 1: mass murder of women, serial killings, one woman after the next,

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Speaker 1: after the next, after the next, on pornography that he

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Speaker 1: voluntarily consumed? What in that? Hey? I mean, Cheryl McCullum.

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Speaker 1: You know, every time I say, well I've heard it

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Speaker 1: all I heard, I hear something else and that just

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Speaker 1: makes me ill. I mean, Cheryl, you heard me describing

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Speaker 1: how after Ted Bundy would rape and murder someone, he

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Speaker 1: would then take their bodies some of them, bathe them,

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Speaker 1: style their hair, apply makeup, and I guess have sex

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Speaker 1: with them again. I mean, and he's blaming that on

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Speaker 1: his voluntary use of porn. Really, it just makes me

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Speaker 1: want to just slap him in the face. Nancy. I

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Speaker 1: think Ted Bundy, more than almost anybody, knew how to

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Speaker 1: get just stears just plummeted into us, and he knew

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Speaker 1: what to say, He knew what to say to freak

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Speaker 1: people out. He knew what to say to cause just

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Speaker 1: this stir of emotion and people then if you were

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Speaker 1: remember they freaked out over it and they wanted to

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Speaker 1: shut down all these sex shots I wanted to shut downs,

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Speaker 1: you know, Playboy and all these sort of things. Did

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Speaker 1: he participate in pornography, Absolutely, he's a rapist. He was

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Speaker 1: in the f and M. He liked watching anybody's suffer.

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Speaker 1: But that isn't what made him well. No to doctor

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Speaker 1: Katherine Ramslin, Professor forensic Psychology to Sells University, author of

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Speaker 1: sixty books, people, it's all i can do to write

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Speaker 1: my hel Hedane books. I'm half dead by the time

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Speaker 1: I finish one of those, much less the one coming

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Speaker 1: out nonfiction. Don't be a victim. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: you do it, doctor Kathyne Ramslin. But one of her

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Speaker 1: books is Inside the Mind of serial Killers, Why They

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Speaker 1: Kill Now. I'm sure you're gonna tell me how wrong

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Speaker 1: I am. And I'm certainly no stranger to that, but

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Speaker 1: it just burns me up to here. Ted Bundy kind

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Speaker 1: of blame pornography for what he did, Like at society's fault.

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Speaker 1: If I or that one more time, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: shoot my foot. Well, I think in the context was

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Speaker 1: that he was trying to manipulate Reverend Opson because he

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Speaker 1: was that was the last interview he gave before he

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Speaker 1: was executed. He was trying to save his life. I

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Speaker 1: believe he exaggerated the impact of the pornography on him

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Speaker 1: because he was trying to get somebody to keep him alive,

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Speaker 1: to study as a specimen, because he believed he was

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Speaker 1: so special and so important, and this was his sort

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Speaker 1: of last ditch effort. But even at that, pornography has

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Speaker 1: and the True Crime the True Detective magazines in particular,

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Speaker 1: which I think is what he's talking about, certainly have

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Speaker 1: had an influence on some of these developing young men

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Speaker 1: to Dennis Rader talked about it too. I spent five

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Speaker 1: years talking about Dennis Raider tote to write his book,

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Speaker 1: and he talked about it almost in the same way,

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Speaker 1: not blaming it so much as just simply saying, this

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Speaker 1: clearly was an influence in my addiction to violence, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's there's something to that. But in Bundy's case,

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Speaker 1: he was certainly exaggerating it to try to get Dobson

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Speaker 1: to say we really need to study this guy. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know what now I am going to shoot my foot.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCall him. I actually started laughing on this end,

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Speaker 1: not at doctor Katherine at Ramslin, but at because she's

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Speaker 1: portraying what Bundy is projecting, that he is so special

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Speaker 1: we should keep him and study him. I already know

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Speaker 1: enough about him. I don't want to keep him. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to study him. I want him off the

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Speaker 1: face of the earth because he's already gotten a way

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Speaker 1: out of jail twice. That that means when you don't

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Speaker 1: know a horse, you'll look at his trick record. He'll

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Speaker 1: do it again and attack another woman. He couldn't stop

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Speaker 1: attacking women. And he thinks he's so special. What makes

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Speaker 1: him special? And why do people keep thinking he's attractive.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's attractive at all. He loves like

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Speaker 1: a wolf. Every time he smiles, I can see every

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Speaker 1: tooth in his mouth all the way to the bat.

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Speaker 1: That's freaky. Well. I got two things to say. One,

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Speaker 1: oh Lord, as far as killers went at the time,

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Speaker 1: people that we knew were murderers and rapists in that group,

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Speaker 1: he was attracted like when you're like King of the zombies.

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Speaker 1: You're the business zombie, the best. Okay, go ahead, exactly.

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Speaker 1: You and I have words enough family violence cases in

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Speaker 1: other cases to know this is true. People will often say, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I was drunk when I beat my wife. I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: I was drunk. I was drunk. I was drunk. He

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Speaker 1: didn't beat her because he was drunk. He got drunk

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Speaker 1: so we could beat her. And Ted Bundy, Okay, you're

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Speaker 1: scaring me. It's the truth. I know it's the true,

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Speaker 1: but when you say it like that, guy's with me.

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Speaker 1: In addition to Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Research Institute, doctor Katherine Ramslin, and doctor Peter Vronsky, Kathy

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Speaker 1: Kleiner is with me. Kathy Kleiner survived an attack by

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. I don't know the statistical odds of her

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Speaker 1: being alive today, but she still suffers physically from that attack. Kathy,

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Speaker 1: we left off when he first came in the door

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Speaker 1: and he heard that soft opening of the door on

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Speaker 1: the carpet. What happened? Then? I woke up a bit,

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Speaker 1: having been sleeping pretty hard. That noise brought me a

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Speaker 1: bit weight. The next thing I heard was setting up

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Speaker 1: the room. We had. It was a normal sized dorm room.

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Speaker 1: We had two twin beds on each side of the wall.

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Speaker 1: In between our beds, we had a small trunk, and

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Speaker 1: on that trunk we kept our books, a little plant,

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Speaker 1: and small things that we needed to reach from our bed.

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Speaker 1: Our bed then from the trunk, had about four feet

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Speaker 1: on each side. Once I heard him open the door

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Speaker 1: and come into the room, the room being so dark,

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Speaker 1: he tripped over that trunk, which now woke me up completely.

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Speaker 1: I'm laying in bed on my left side. I look

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Speaker 1: up and I see the shadow of something, a man

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Speaker 1: standing next to the bed. As I see it in

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Speaker 1: a split second, he raises his arm up above his head,

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Speaker 1: and I could see he had something in his hand,

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Speaker 1: a log. As I looked at him in a split second,

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Speaker 1: he threw with such force that log in his hand

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Speaker 1: on my face that it terribly, terribly injured my face.

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Speaker 1: Just trying to take in what you're saying. What happened

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Speaker 1: then when he struck me, it was it felt like

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Speaker 1: a thud. It didn't hurt, It didn't I didn't feel

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Speaker 1: the sharp pain that I would feel later when I

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Speaker 1: was being attacked. I made noise and it woke up

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Speaker 1: my roommate, who was right next to me in her

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Speaker 1: twin bed. He then walked across the room again. He

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Speaker 1: tripped over that trunk and attacked Karen again. He beat

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Speaker 1: her with the same log that he had attacked me with.

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Speaker 1: As he went to strike her, she rose her arms

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Speaker 1: up over her face to hopefully keep the blow from

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Speaker 1: hurting her. After he hit her, he heard me moaning again,

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Speaker 1: so he crossed the other side to my twin bed

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Speaker 1: and went to attack me again. I saw him raise

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Speaker 1: his arm up over his head, and just before he

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Speaker 1: struck me, a light shone up into our bedroom. We

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Speaker 1: were on the second floor of the house, which faced

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Speaker 1: the back, which faced the parking lot. Our window was

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Speaker 1: eatly exposed to that parking lot. Our bedroom shades our

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Speaker 1: curtains were wide open because we hung plants on the

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Speaker 1: curtain rods, so therefore we never closed them. Just before

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Speaker 1: he's waiting for that to hit me, I could see

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Speaker 1: only a black shadow. When he first walked into the room.

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Speaker 1: He had a dark knit hat over his head. He

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Speaker 1: wore dark clothes. When someone came into the parking lot

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Speaker 1: that night early in the morning to drop off a

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Speaker 1: throaty sister from a date. The lights of that car

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Speaker 1: shone up into our bedroom and illuminated the room so bright,

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Speaker 1: and I was cringing. I could see the light through

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Speaker 1: my dark closed eyes. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace So

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00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 1: her roommate's new ridway. Something was wrong. I said, well,

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Speaker 1: where did she go last night? And said, while she

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Speaker 1: went to a dorm leaders meeting and was on our

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Speaker 1: way back to the dorm room and never came back.

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Speaker 1: This is where we where. He objected her she had

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Speaker 1: to walk through this to get to her dorm. I

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Speaker 1: would be obsessed with searching for her. She had bright

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Speaker 1: yellow ski coat. I would just look for that, and

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Speaker 1: everywhere we went, I found myself looking in fields and

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Speaker 1: ditches for this yellow ski jacket to stick out like

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Speaker 1: a sore thumb, and I would be able to say

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Speaker 1: A found her. And we lived for a long time.

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Speaker 1: You can hear the heartbreak in the voice of Vivian Raincourt.

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Speaker 1: That's Susan Raincourt's mom along with her sister, crying, crying,

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Speaker 1: speaking out about the day that Susan disappeared, and how

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Speaker 1: for so many years they kept just looking instinctively for

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Speaker 1: her yellow coat. Well, she was a ted Bundy victim.

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Speaker 1: And in the last weeks, Netflix has released a real

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Speaker 1: glamorization of Bundy. The serial killer, the rapist, the killer,

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Speaker 1: the kidnapper, the necrophiliac Ted Bundy. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: like Zac Efron to somebody not like zac Efron, but

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Speaker 1: this portrayal of Bundy. And again, this is not about Efron,

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Speaker 1: As I said, He's just a squirrel trying to get

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Speaker 1: a nut, trying to make a living like the rest

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Speaker 1: of us. You get some movie deal, sure I'll do it,

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Speaker 1: but oh the way Bundy is glamorized. It just to

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Speaker 1: doctor Peter Vronsky, author of Sons of Kine, History of

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Speaker 1: serial killer Stone Age to present, what's your response to

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Speaker 1: the movie? Before I go back to Kathy Kleiner, who

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Speaker 1: actually survived Bundy, what do you make of the movie? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the portrait that we have of Ted Bundy

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Speaker 1: in that movie, is it gained, you know, that quality

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Speaker 1: that he had, that characteristic that he presented um and

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Speaker 1: and so we see the surface, we see the mask.

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Speaker 1: You know a lot of us have grown up knowing

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Speaker 1: about Ted Bundy, but you have a whole new generation

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Speaker 1: that doesn't quite understand who or what Ted Bundy. Really was,

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Speaker 1: and how he was able to lure so many victims,

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Speaker 1: And of course it was that, you know, that psychopathic

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Speaker 1: career that allowed him to lure these victims into these

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Speaker 1: vulnerable positions where he was able to abduct them and

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Speaker 1: take them away. And so we get that side of

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. We see the side that the victims saw

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Speaker 1: before he revealed himself. What is again regrettable about that

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Speaker 1: film is that it doesn't show us the real Ted Bundy,

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Speaker 1: what was really lurking beneath that mask that we don't see.

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Speaker 1: You mean, the Ted Bundy that would bathe the dead

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00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: victim's bodies and make love to them and put makeup

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00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: and hear spray on him. That Ted Bundy, the freaky

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00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: killer Ted Bundy, That Ted Bundy indeed the monster, this

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00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: this this predatory, really monstrous creature, you know, on the

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Speaker 1: scale of serial killers, Ted Bundy. Really. I think that's

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00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: why we're so fascinated with him, because when we look

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Speaker 1: at serial killers, you know, some of them really look

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Speaker 1: like serial killers. I'm not really fascinated by him. To

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Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky, I'm not really fascinated. I just want to

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Speaker 1: put a hole through his neck, like he's a snake.

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Speaker 1: So that's kind of how I feel about him. But

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Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying because it's so bizarre. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, think about it. You know how hard it

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Speaker 1: is to put on the eyeliner straight, much less when

351
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Speaker 1: you're driving. That's a whole other can of worms. But eyeliner.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine him with the dead body trying to

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Speaker 1: perfectly apply eyeliner and mascara and lipstick on a dead

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Speaker 1: body of a woman that he raped and murdered. Think

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Speaker 1: about it. Just wait a minute, Cheryl, Just think about it,

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Speaker 1: him hunched over the dead body trying to put an

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Speaker 1: eyeliner a lipstick. Oh okay, now that you've thought about it,

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Speaker 1: way in he was meticulous. He did take his time.

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Speaker 1: He had a plan that was so clear in his

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Speaker 1: mind exactly what he wanted to happen. And here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: As I listened to Kathy Kleiner and I've heard her

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Speaker 1: story more than once, and every time, like you, I

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00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: just get chills and I just hurt for her. But

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00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: it's important for people listening to her to realize, prior

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Speaker 1: to him attacking Katherine and Karen, he had already killed

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Speaker 1: Lisa and Margaret, he had already killed two of their

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Speaker 1: friends in that house. He walked calmly down the hall

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00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: and entered another room. Then he would murder, rape, walk

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Speaker 1: down the hall, strangled, beat rap, walked down the hall

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Speaker 1: and enter another room to do it again. And there

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Speaker 1: is no doubt in my mind that Kathy was his

372
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Speaker 1: next victim. Ted Bundy didn't attack anybody to hurt him.

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Speaker 1: He attacked them to kill them. Kathy Kleiner with me

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Speaker 1: one of the few you know in all the Harry Potters,

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Speaker 1: they refer to him as the boy who lived, the

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Speaker 1: only boy who lived. This is the girl who lived.

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00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: Kathy Kleiner lived through a real life Valdemore, a real

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Speaker 1: life devil incarnate. And I just can't even imagine being

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Speaker 1: in the room. You know, Sometimes, Kathy, I look back

380
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Speaker 1: on murderers, spree killers, serial killers that I actually prosecuted,

381
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 1: and they had an aura about them. I don't care

382
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: who wants to make fun of this. They had an

383
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: aura about them that it was just different. They're not

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Speaker 1: like regular people. It's like holding holding a reptile in

385
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: your hand and it looks at you and you know

386
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: it has no feeling, and it's just cold blood running

387
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: through those veins. I want to go back to where

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00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: you left off, Kathy. What happened? Then? When the lights

389
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: shone up in our room, I could see more clearly

390
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: this dark shadow again. I did not see his face.

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Speaker 1: All I could make out was the shape of a

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00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: body of man. I remember the light shone so bright

393
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: in our room that it felt like it it was

394
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: a flood of a personal I'm sorry, a personal feeling

395
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: that the blows were going to stop, that he was

396
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: going to stop attacking me, because I saw him turn

397
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: around and leave run out of our bedroom. In a

398
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: few minutes, the light went away, the room was dark,

399
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: and the beatings had stopped. I was screaming, I was yelling.

400
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my bed just yelling for help,

401
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: and actually all I was doing was making gurgling sounds.

402
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: When he attacked me. My jaw was shattered so bad

403
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: that it was hanging off my face and attached only

404
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: to fraction of the bone on my joint. My cheek

405
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: was split open from my mouth to my ear, where

406
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: it exposed the inside of my mouth. I also almost

407
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: bit my tongue off because at ease injuries I was

408
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: gurgling and not screaming what I like. I thought I

409
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: was the next thing, I remember a packed paramedics and

410
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: a police offer off for coming to the side of

411
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Speaker 1: my bed, and as soon as I saw the policeman,

412
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Speaker 1: I knew I was safe. I didn't know a lot

413
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: of what was going on because I was so confused

414
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: and hurting so bad. At this point, it felt like

415
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: knives being dug into my face. When I saw the

416
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: police officer, I knew this person that hit me in attack.

417
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: Still confused and gazed, I felt safe. The paramedics were

418
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Speaker 1: at the side of my bed trying to assess what

419
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: exactly had happened to me. I remember in the state,

420
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: I was trying to talk and the paramedics said, it's okay,

421
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: don't worry. You've been shot in the face, but we're

422
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: going to take care of you. Again, confusion hit me

423
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: because I knew I was hit with a log. I

424
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: knew my face was struck with a log. I didn't

425
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: remember being shot in the face again. That just compounded

426
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: a confusion I had in my head of exactly what

427
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: was going on that night Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

428
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: I thought he was going to kiss me instead. He said,

429
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: very quietly, do you know what I'm going to kill you?

430
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: And he put his hands on my throat and started squeezing.

431
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: My first thought was has to be some kind of

432
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: a joke. This guy's got the weirdest sense of humor.

433
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: But that was just maybe a fraction of a second

434
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: because I realized he was squeezing too tightly. He was

435
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: aus and I was in trouble, and there's no door handle.

436
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: What did you do? We had a little small battle

437
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: in the car, but I went unconscious, so he choked

438
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: you to the point of unconsciousness. Yes, did you put

439
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: up a fight? I did as much of a fight

440
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: as you can put up when you're running out of air.

441
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: Did you think at that point I'm going to die?

442
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friend doctor Phil speaking to one of

443
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: the only other known living victims of Ted Bundy, in

444
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: addition to our special guest Kathy Kleiner joining us today.

445
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: That was Ronda Stately, and that's not all. Listen. He

446
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: was slapping my face again, trying to wake me up again,

447
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: and he said, good girl, good girl, you don't want

448
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: to die yet. Don't die on me yet, because you

449
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: would miss the best part, and he got me by

450
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: my boot to the end of the picnic table, pulled

451
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: my pants down, and raped me. And just as that

452
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: was finishing, he leaned forward again and put his hands

453
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: around my throat and was choking me again. And at

454
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: that point I didn't struggle. I decided I was dead.

455
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: I was just going to wait until it was over.

456
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: The next thing I knew, I was laying on the ground,

457
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: and I was sort of surprised when I came to again,

458
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,239
Speaker 1: and it was pitch dark, and he was standing by

459
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: the open door, fiddling with something in the back seat,

460
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: like thirty feet away from me. And I didn't really

461
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: plan anything like a great escape, but adrenaline was running

462
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: and I just jumped and ran. I didn't run very

463
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: far because my pants were in a water around my ankles.

464
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: I tripped after just one or two steps, but fortunately,

465
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: or luckily, or intervention from above or something, I fell

466
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: into a fast moving mountain river that swept me away

467
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: from my attacker and probably saved my life. Wow, talk

468
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: about divine intervention. You know what, if anybody doesn't believe

469
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: in miracles, they need to hear Rhonda Staply. That's her

470
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: speaking with our friend, doctor feel Or listened to Kathy Kleiner,

471
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: who was with me right now, one of the only

472
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: known victims to survive Ted Bundy. To doctor Katherine Ramslind,

473
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: Professor Forensic Psychology to Sales University, the author of sixty books,

474
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: including Inside the Minds of Serial Killers Why They Kill

475
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: on Amazon, Doctor Ramslin, I have no doubt in my

476
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: mind that there are other Bundy victims out there that

477
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: have never been identified. There are still unsolved cases. I'm

478
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: sure there are. He even thought there were himself, but

479
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: he couldn't remember them when he was doing the final interviews.

480
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: And there probably don't want to talk about it. They're

481
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: still traumatized by it, Cheryl. So many women don't come

482
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: forward after rape. I don't know why. Well, I guess

483
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: I do know why. Actually, they don't want to think

484
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: about it. They don't want to go through a pelvic exam,

485
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: they don't want to be attacked on cross exam. They

486
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: want to suppress it, pretended didn't happen, to go on

487
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: with their lives. It's really hard to do that, Cheryl.

488
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: It's impossible to do that, Nancy. But here's the thing.

489
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: Prior to Kathy Kleiner, if you were to look at

490
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: that scene that Bundy left at the child mega house,

491
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: and you've got victims strangled and beaten and they were

492
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: raped with objects, you would believe that this person that

493
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: did it, that is capable of that type of justice violence,

494
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: would be an out of control just in this frenzy.

495
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: But listening to Cathy talk, we know that's not true.

496
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: He was controlled, he was slow, He never said one word.

497
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 1: He slowly walks in a room, murders, raped, slowly down

498
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: the halls in the next room does the same thing.

499
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 1: Because of Kathy, we have insight to how this serial

500
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: killer murdered and that to me is so invaluable and

501
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: her brain. Why why does everybody keep talking about him

502
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: like they want to out of him, like he's a

503
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 1: work of art. He's the devil and you know, we

504
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: can understand understand what It's just like jumping into a

505
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: vat of snakes. What is there to understand? How can

506
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: you take somebody young and wonderful and just destroy I'm

507
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: thinking about Kathy Kleiner at that age, She's just this

508
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: young teen gruel it Just what do you make of

509
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: the new movie out on Netflix with Zach effren I

510
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: watched it with my husband, and I did see how

511
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: he wanted people to see him. It was a movie

512
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: about Ted, but it shown to me a different side

513
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: of him because I did not know the story of

514
00:35:54,520 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: his girlfriend and their relationship. Because of that, you saw

515
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: him more as a person than the devil and the

516
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: beast inside of him. By not showing him attacking with

517
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: the blood and the gore the other victims, it put

518
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: into it put into view for me that he was

519
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: in control at some point, but he enjoyed it when

520
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: he let the beast out, and that when he raped

521
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: and killed he got satisfaction out of that. But when

522
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: he went home he saw his girlfriend and her daughter.

523
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: That movie portrayed Bundy and his girlfriend, but it didn't

524
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: show the victims, and I think because of not showing

525
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: him attack them, it wasn't a point in the movie

526
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: where the victims should have been examined and talked about

527
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: and how they were killed and taken away from us

528
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: so soon from this world. At that point, I thought

529
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: the movie was done very well as far as the

530
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: acting and the portrayal of how he was when he

531
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: wanted to be seen that way. I didn't see it

532
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: as showing the victims until the very end when the

533
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: credits rolled and all the names of the victims, all

534
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: of our names were on the TV screen, and it

535
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: showed that we were people and we did have names.

536
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: So I think that at that point acknowledging us was

537
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: a way of showing that the film was sensitive enough

538
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: to show who we were. The story of Ted Bundy

539
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: goes on, because I guarantee you there are other victims.

540
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye Friend,