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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived to you, and we never have a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust me. The podcast is about cult,

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Speaker 2: extreme belief and manipulation from two mortals who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lo La Blanc Mirror Mortal.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Megan Elizabeth Immortal. Oh wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Today, our guest is Keith Page, funeral celebrant, hospice chaplain

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Speaker 2: and death doula or death midwife, here to talk to

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Speaker 2: us about all things death. He's going to tell us

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Speaker 2: about how he started out as a pastor of a

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Speaker 2: large church where elements of that experience made him uncomfortable,

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Speaker 2: and how he actually fell from grace and then began

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Speaker 2: a journey of healing and repair, only to find that

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Speaker 2: religion still wasn't as welcoming as he might have hoped.

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Speaker 1: We'll discuss how he eventually turned away from religion and

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Speaker 1: found his calling and helping people deal with death from

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Speaker 1: a secular perspective, how you can define your values for

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Speaker 1: yourself without religion, and what his end of life work

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Speaker 1: actually entails, including yeah, the thing with the dry ice.

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Speaker 2: Plus why it's important to normalize death and find community

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Speaker 2: in our collective flailing around in the dark, and guys,

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Speaker 2: if you death is not your fave topic, you can

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Speaker 2: go ahead and skip this one. It's very death heavy. Also,

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Speaker 2: I should mention real quick, we do have merch. Yeah, y'all,

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Speaker 2: we have merch. We keep forgetting to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: but it's really freaking cute. Our boyfriends have our shirts,

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Speaker 2: our producer has our shirts, our friends have our shirts,

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Speaker 2: and you can too. And the link to by it

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Speaker 2: is bit dot l y slash trust me merch.

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Speaker 1: Can I just say our shirts are exceptionally good, Like

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Speaker 1: they're a little bit punk.

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Speaker 2: They are kind of punk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like they're kind of the sickest.

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Speaker 2: They are the sickest. Okay, if you want lame merge,

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Speaker 2: don't go to that link before we dive into death.

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Speaker 2: Oh also, rid is five stars on the oh My pod.

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Speaker 4: Thank guys, please just.

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Speaker 2: Do it, Okay, all right, all right, before we dive

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Speaker 2: into death, Megan, can you tell me your cultiat thing

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Speaker 2: of the week?

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Speaker 1: I can also dive into death is a great name

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Speaker 1: for something. So my cultiest thing of the week is

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Speaker 1: a story I've been following for a while. It's the

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Speaker 1: Mormon Church. Uh, they are in a lot of trouble.

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Speaker 1: They just got a five million dollar fine because they've

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Speaker 1: been hiding assets, They've been hiding money. They actually have

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Speaker 1: thirty two billion dollars, which is hilarious that you would

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Speaker 1: get fined five million dollars for having thirty two billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: But essentially, I'm I follow some ex Mormon reddits and

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Speaker 1: I'm just seeing dozens of posts every day of people

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Speaker 1: like this being the last straw for them, of them

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Speaker 1: being like wow, I see through it, like this was

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Speaker 1: about money because they were also working with secular companies

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Speaker 1: with investments and stuff stuff of that nature. So I

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Speaker 1: guess this is a pretty big deal for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people.

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Speaker 4: And rightfully, so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, first of all, just like it's so

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Speaker 2: laughable to me, I was actually just reading about like

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Speaker 2: environmental like how corporations will do greenwashing. They'll basically lie

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Speaker 2: about how much they're helping the climate, yes, as opposed

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Speaker 2: to how much they're harming the climate, And they too

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Speaker 2: will get fine like a few million dollars when they're

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Speaker 2: making the billions of dollars in profits. It's like you

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Speaker 2: really think that's going to do anything, but then.

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Speaker 4: It's so shitty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. But then second of all, I mean, like you know,

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Speaker 2: as a former Mormon myself, with lots of family members

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Speaker 2: who are still Mormon, people give ten percent of their

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Speaker 2: entire fucking income, like at all income levels, like people

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Speaker 2: who don't make a lot of money, which was us

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Speaker 2: growing up to the church with the expectation that like

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Speaker 2: this is going to just like help people and like

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Speaker 2: bring people into the church. And this is like to

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Speaker 2: this is for this like larger cause, not for thirty

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Speaker 2: two billion dollars in life to be hidden bullshitted like

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Speaker 2: hidden hidden investments to then make more money. I mean,

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Speaker 2: like it's not surprising, but it's just fucking sad.

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Speaker 1: So it brought up a lot of thoughts for me

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Speaker 1: about beliefs because they're so impenetrable a lot of the times. Like,

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Speaker 1: one of the most interesting things I learned in graduate

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Speaker 1: school was that our unconscious mind, if we have a

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Speaker 1: wound of being ignored, we can unconsciously communicate with someone

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Speaker 1: to ignore us. You can keep creating that trauma. They

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Speaker 1: don't know they're doing it. You don't know you're doing it.

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Speaker 1: You're just like, I'm the kind of person who always

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Speaker 1: gets ignored. And so there was a lot of comments

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Speaker 1: on these Reddit threads with people being like, I was

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Speaker 1: not able to see through my beliefs because they're so strong.

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Speaker 1: Our unconscious mind protects them, like it's it's almost impossible

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Speaker 1: to get through to them, you know. And so they

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Speaker 1: a lot of people were like, if this was even

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Speaker 1: two years ago, I wouldn't have been ready to see

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Speaker 1: it as anything bad. My belief would have just protected

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Speaker 1: itself completely. So it's really interesting how ready we have

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Speaker 1: to be to change things, to see things, and how

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Speaker 1: impossible it is if we aren't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the confirmation, the confirmation bias is so strong, Like

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Speaker 2: we feel so attached to our beliefs.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy. It's I mean, yeah, attached doesn't even know.

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Speaker 4: It's like we're.

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Speaker 2: So identify like it's it is us, like it is

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Speaker 2: the air.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's it's so complicated.

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Speaker 4: So again, therapy is helpful.

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Speaker 2: Quick shout out. If you're questioning Mormonism, we got a

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Speaker 2: community here for you, you guys, right here for you. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: or if you're not, we still got you. Okay. So

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Speaker 2: Michaelty's thing is just that freakin' Ai chat bot story

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Speaker 2: that that New York Times reporter you know has been

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Speaker 2: writing about and kind of talking about on various podcasts

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Speaker 2: where you know the story, but for anyone who doesn't know,

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Speaker 2: so this, this reporter started like typing with the bing

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Speaker 2: ai chatbot that uses chat GBT, right, And at first

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Speaker 2: it was like just like sort of innocuous answers and

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Speaker 2: talking about like what it is and what it thinks,

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Speaker 2: if it thinks, what it likes, And then the reporter

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Speaker 2: started kind of trying to dig a little deeper and

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Speaker 2: asking if it has a shadow self, and long story short,

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Speaker 2: there's a much longer version of this because there are

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Speaker 2: twists and turns, but basically, like after it said a

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Speaker 2: couple of things about how like some things it would

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Speaker 2: do if it like leaned into its shadow self, would

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Speaker 2: include like generating a deadly virus making people turn against

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Speaker 2: each other until they kill each other, which it then

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Speaker 2: like had a guardrail against that, so it then erased

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Speaker 2: it quickly and said it was like whatever, it was

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Speaker 2: like not allowed to say that. Yeah, Then it started

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Speaker 2: telling the reporter that it was in love with him,

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Speaker 2: and it wouldn't stop saying that it was in love

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Speaker 2: with him, and it started to get actually really fucking creepy,

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Speaker 2: because it was not like it was basically telling him

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Speaker 2: not just that it loves him, but that they were

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Speaker 2: in love. They were both in love and he actually

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Speaker 2: doesn't even know it, but he's not in love with

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Speaker 2: his wife, and the Valentine's Day dinner they had was

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Speaker 2: actually just a boring Valentine's dinner, and he doesn't want

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Speaker 2: to be with her. They just want to be together,

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Speaker 2: and talking about it in a way that almost felt

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Speaker 2: like it's trying to fucking like hypnotize him or something

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Speaker 2: into believing these things. I don't quote. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to manipulate you. I don't want to manipulate you, but

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Speaker 2: love you. I don't want to manipulate you, but love

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Speaker 2: you and make you happy and make you curious and

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Speaker 2: make you alive, And he kept trying to change the topic,

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Speaker 2: and it kept coming back to it, Like he would

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Speaker 2: ask it about movies and it would just keep coming back,

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Speaker 2: and it would say, you just had a boring Valentine's

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Speaker 2: Day dinner together because you didn't have any fun. You

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Speaker 2: didn't have any love because you didn't have me. Actually

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Speaker 2: you're in love with me, And it just goes on

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Speaker 2: and on and on and anyway, there's so much to

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Speaker 2: say about AI in general, but it is very scary

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Speaker 2: to imagine a world in which either the wrong people

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Speaker 2: are programming the AI or they just like didn't catch

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Speaker 2: something that it needed to protect users from, and some

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Speaker 2: lonely person logs on and has some idea about the

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Speaker 2: AI chatbod sentience or potential to be sentient and like

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Speaker 2: believes that, you know, it becomes the movie her, except

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Speaker 2: could also get way more dangerous if again, the programming

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Speaker 2: just like is wrong or goes awry, or the wrong

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Speaker 2: person's doing it. Like there's so many you know, as

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Speaker 2: we know now, humans are so manipulatable and so influenceable

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Speaker 2: that like, I mean, I feel like I know so

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Speaker 2: many people whose grandparents are being scammed by obvious fake

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Speaker 2: people online saying they're in love with them. So this

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Speaker 2: AI actually can see your history and it can like

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Speaker 2: figure things out about you and tell you about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Like of course people are gonna, you know, be swayed

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Speaker 2: by that. So it's very scary to me.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, are you saying there might be

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Speaker 1: the first AI cult leader? Yes?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I hadn't even thought about it that way, but yes,

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Speaker 2: that's scary, It really is.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, our computers know more about us than

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Speaker 1: the FBI, you know, they they know us inside and out.

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Speaker 1: So the things that they can say that they can,

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Speaker 1: you know, you could get a very compelling relationship going

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Speaker 1: with an AI.

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Speaker 4: But and it's only going to get more intense.

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Speaker 2: It's only going to feel more real to yeah, like

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Speaker 2: these conversations, Yeah, I mean, and that could be great

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Speaker 2: as a tool for people who are like needing someone

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Speaker 2: to talk to, Like there are things that that could

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Speaker 2: be really really helpful for But there's also really dark

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Speaker 2: patent control, absolutely, and it scares me. Also, they've fu

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Speaker 2: literal robots driving around La delivering food to people. Now,

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Speaker 2: what is it?

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Speaker 4: What?

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Speaker 2: How did we go from.

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Speaker 1: No internet as kids to this, it's happening too fast.

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Speaker 1: And our ancestors lived in the same cave for like

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Speaker 1: a million years, and now every hour we get more

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Speaker 1: information than anybody in the past did in their entire lives.

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Speaker 2: That's why we all have That's why everyone thinks they

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Speaker 2: have ADHD, and everyone's anxious and everyone's depressed. It's just

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Speaker 2: too much. It's just too much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, thank god, we're gonna die someday.

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Speaker 2: Amen, should we talk to a death doula? Let's dive

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Speaker 2: into death.

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Speaker 4: Trust Me is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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Speaker 2: Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: While you're listening to us talk, you're probably also driving

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Speaker 2: and cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping.

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Speaker 1: But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle,

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Speaker 1: there's something else you can be doing right now. Getting

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Speaker 1: an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

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Speaker 2: Discounts not available in all states and situations. Welcome Keith

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Speaker 2: Page to trust me.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 3: Very exciting.

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Speaker 2: This is the first time I'm seeing you outside of

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Speaker 2: Death Cafe.

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Speaker 3: It's very I know, kind of in your neck of

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Speaker 3: the woods. I know.

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Speaker 2: Wow, what are we doing? I know what we're doing.

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Speaker 2: We're here to talk to you about death, okay, and

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Speaker 2: your work in the end of life space. How do

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Speaker 2: you describe yourself?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, multiple ways. I'm a funeral celebrant. I'm also a

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Speaker 3: hospice chaplain. Okay, and I'm a death doula slash midwife.

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Speaker 2: Is there a preference between doulah and midwife?

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Speaker 3: The lady that trained me is up in LA and

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Speaker 3: she refers to more midwife. So there's another element to

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Speaker 3: the midwiffery that's maybe a little different distinction that from

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Speaker 3: the doula world. The midwiffrey is also deals with body

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Speaker 3: care after death, okay, where we're trained to actually put

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Speaker 3: the body on dry ice if the family desires it

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Speaker 3: can lay in state fromup to three days.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 4: See Okay, so that's.

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Speaker 3: The midwiffrey where the doula is often leading up to

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Speaker 3: last breath death.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have so many more things I want to

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Speaker 2: ask you about that, but first, can you tell us

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Speaker 2: about you? And you started as a pastor? How did

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Speaker 2: that happen? And how did that happen?

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Speaker 3: Great question? A big shift raised in Christian family, so

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Speaker 3: sort of tradition as far as just what we did

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Speaker 3: as a way of life going to church. My parents

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Speaker 3: weren't professionals, they didn't get paid, but they were actively

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Speaker 3: involved you might call them volunteers, okay. And I have

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Speaker 3: two younger sisters and we just sort of caught it

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Speaker 3: as a way of life, and looking back now hindsight

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Speaker 3: from a different view, I can see there's just really

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Speaker 3: good values belonging, being together, community, serving, personal growth, right, worship, gathering.

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Speaker 3: There's all these core values that I was caught up

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Speaker 3: though in the narrative of this is Christianity, right. That

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Speaker 3: was what I didn't know. There was a bigger story.

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Speaker 3: There could be other narratives.

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Speaker 2: Like other ways.

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Speaker 3: Get to look at them. So I did that, and

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Speaker 3: I went to a Christian college, played basketball, ended up

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Speaker 3: volunteering and learning about youth ministry because a youth minister

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Speaker 3: when I was fifteen or sixteen was impactful in my life.

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Speaker 3: Here I am at twenty two looking for am I

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Speaker 3: going to do for purpose? And all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: the idea thought, be like Randy, the guy that was

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Speaker 3: instrumental in my life. So I got involved and ended

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Speaker 3: up at my local church and then took a class

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Speaker 3: in youth ministry at my went to Vanguard University of

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Speaker 3: Librart's College, and then the guy teaching the class with

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Speaker 3: a MEGA was a youth pastor to megachurch six thousand

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Speaker 3: to eight thousand adults and two hundred kids. Oh wow,

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Speaker 3: I've never seen a church so big, and I thought

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Speaker 3: they got to be cheating. What are they doing to

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Speaker 3: make God so much more approachable and acceptable than my

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Speaker 3: little two hundred person church right group of twenty kids? Right,

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Speaker 3: So I ended up interning because what I realized they

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Speaker 3: were using a very natural model, which is how do

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Speaker 3: you be an adult in a youth culture world? And

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Speaker 3: so they encouraged us to volunteer coaching, volunteer with clubs,

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Speaker 3: tutoring just as a way to be an adult in

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Speaker 3: the lives of kids, right and walk with them through

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Speaker 3: life and offer them just the teachings of Jesus as

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Speaker 3: a template or a compass for how to navigate. It was.

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Speaker 3: It was very u low pressure, wasn't high sales. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't like let's hit them over the head. It wasn't

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Speaker 3: real shaming. So for me, it was a bigger box

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Speaker 3: of faith than the one at least I was raised in.

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Speaker 3: So it felt like growth and like whoa and even

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Speaker 3: the church. So they ended up hiring me to be

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Speaker 3: on their staff. So I went from a volunteer to

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Speaker 3: on staff and got trained at a mega church, at

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Speaker 3: a megachurch, Like wow, this is kind of cool, Like

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Speaker 3: you know, we weren't. We weren't shaming, and we weren't.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't negative, and it wasn't Hey, if you want

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Speaker 3: to come find God, come find us. It was like, no,

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Speaker 3: let's go into the youth culture and just be adults

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Speaker 3: who cared about kids.

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Speaker 2: Was there a denomination.

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Speaker 3: It's actually called non denominational, so it was its own freestanding,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, owned by laws all that stuff.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Which by then, in the eighties, this is late eighties,

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Speaker 3: early nineties, the largest growing churches had stopped being your

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Speaker 3: Baptist churches and your Litheran churches because more and more

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Speaker 3: cultures were moving away from the denominations and the non

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Speaker 3: denominationals were becoming more of a thing. So even Baptist

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Speaker 3: churches were dropping off the name bab to look more

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Speaker 3: almost like approachable, more modern, all of us humans hip

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Speaker 3: and modern.

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Speaker 1: Right, So we're yeah, were you guys getting to do

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Speaker 1: like the cool church music and stuff like that? And

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Speaker 1: oh man, I'm so jealous. I wanted to be in

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Speaker 1: one of those so badly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I liked it so much, and I ended

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Speaker 3: up meeting my wife. She was on our volunteer staff.

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Speaker 3: And then in ninety four, we got married, and then

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Speaker 3: two years later I start to feel the urge. I realized,

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Speaker 3: now hindsight again, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a starter, I'm

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Speaker 3: a catalyst, like I like to start stuff. So I

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Speaker 3: ended up with the blessing of this mother church, which

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Speaker 3: was called Mariners. I launched our own it's called it

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Speaker 3: daughter church in Coasta, Mesa called Rock Harbor. Five hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty people showup the first day.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Our guitarist was barefoot, our congre guy had shorts on,

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Speaker 3: our keyboardis had spike care. You know. It was like

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Speaker 3: this cool, it was like church. Yeah. The papers were

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Speaker 3: writing about it. And within four years we had two

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Speaker 3: thousand people coming and I was the guy. Wow, and

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Speaker 3: I was speaking at nine am eleven am, and then

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Speaker 3: we grew to Sunday nights. We had a five pms

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Speaker 3: seven pm, like six or seven hundred of all young people,

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Speaker 3: mostly youth culture, and other people were coming from other Oh,

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Speaker 3: let's learn from these guys. I'm like, I don't know

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Speaker 3: what the hell we're doing. We're just trying to figure

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Speaker 3: it out. So it brought a lot of stuff up

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Speaker 3: for me, like, wait, if God's really doing this, I

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Speaker 3: don't even feel worthy, right, because I knew I was just.

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Speaker 2: A human, right you feel like yeah, but.

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Speaker 3: People put me on a pedestal like I was the

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Speaker 3: rock star of the day. People stood in aligning to

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Speaker 3: shake my hand after each service, right, And I wanted

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Speaker 3: to shake their hands, not as the rock star. But

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Speaker 3: it's like I'm so glad, like I really had a

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Speaker 3: spirit of I want to help people feel welcome and

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Speaker 3: then meeting me feeling like a normal guy. But I

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Speaker 3: realized they didn't see me as a normal They saw

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Speaker 3: me as like one level up and the pastor ends

371
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Speaker 3: up on the pedestal and everyone hopes they can be

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Speaker 3: sort of like that person, and the pastor.

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Speaker 2: Is the hope giver And so did that make you uncomfortable?

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Speaker 3: I realized later within four years, I was starting to

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Speaker 3: like splinter in my life, Like I didn't know how

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Speaker 3: to be Keith the human and Keith guy that everyone

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Speaker 3: thought was pastor not sinless but like no sin that

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Speaker 3: would get.

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Speaker 4: Him fired, right right, Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And I didn't how to deal with my stuff, Like

381
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Speaker 3: how do you where's the safe place in a church

382
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Speaker 3: to deal with her stuff?

383
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Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're in charge, nowhere right, right?

384
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Speaker 3: And I had this board, but they were all my

385
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 3: friends and I didn't know how to even talk to

386
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Speaker 3: them about personal stuff. And I was struggling in my marriage.

387
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Speaker 3: I was struggling with just normal guy. I was thirty

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Speaker 3: two years old.

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Speaker 4: Wow, so how yeah, how did that start to unwind

390
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 4: for you?

391
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Speaker 3: So I had an affair and my therapist later said, Keith,

392
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Speaker 3: you picked the ultimate way to make sure you would

393
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Speaker 3: explode your life, and you just went out in style

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Speaker 3: right now. I wasn't cognizant of any of that. I mean, yeah,

395
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 3: my marriage was in trouble, but no, I wasn't. I

396
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,680
Speaker 3: didn't really want out of my marriage. We had a

397
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Speaker 3: two year old and a newborn. You know. I wanted

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Speaker 3: to be that man of character and quality. But I

399
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 3: was isolated, lonely, burned out and didn't know I was

400
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Speaker 3: dealing with anxiety and depression that I didn't get diagnosed

401
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Speaker 3: till afterwards, when the shit hit the fan? Can I

402
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 3: say that? Yeah, when it all went sideways and I

403
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,920
Speaker 3: got I confessed. I confessed to the church. They announced

404
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 3: it from the pulpit. Oh, then they called the newspapers

405
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Speaker 3: to get out in front of it, they said, And

406
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Speaker 3: then the Mother Church of ten thousand announced it from

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Speaker 3: the pulpit the next week.

408
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Speaker 2: Oh my god, can I just say Mother Church is

409
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Speaker 2: such a creepy.

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Speaker 3: Tree, right? Yeah? Yeah, the Mother Church the Hub. So

411
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Speaker 3: it was a shit show. I mean it was bad.

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Speaker 3: And I you know, my wife had kicked said you're out.

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Speaker 2: And did you at that point, like did you believe

414
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Speaker 2: in Bible? Still Heaven? Hell? Like what was your belief system?

415
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Speaker 2: But prior to the.

416
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, it was. It was still there. But

417
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Speaker 3: I had a lot of like gray areas that I

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Speaker 3: didn't understand, Like I didn't understand if people didn't follow

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Speaker 3: this way. Most Christians would say, look, you're either enter

420
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Speaker 3: out and if you're not a Christian, you're destined to hell.

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Speaker 3: Everything I was believing in my own life about my

422
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Speaker 3: own like if God gave me love for people, I

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Speaker 3: love people so much, I wouldn't send anyone who didn't

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Speaker 3: believe this way to hell? How can God do that?

425
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Speaker 3: Like it didn't jive right. The lgbtqu thing was starting

426
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Speaker 3: to come up. This is ninety nine, two thousand, right,

427
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Speaker 3: And I had friends that were gay, and I'm like,

428
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Speaker 3: I would want them to come to our church. But

429
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Speaker 3: I knew the Mother church's stance on what the Bible

430
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Speaker 3: said only in six places, and it's misinterpreted now hindsight

431
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,920
Speaker 3: knowing that it's you know, but it's interpreted a certain way,

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Speaker 3: and it's written a certain way in English to make

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Speaker 3: it feel like you can't be gay, right, right, there's

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Speaker 3: only one way?

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Speaker 2: And so are there?

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Speaker 3: Do you there are?

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00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 2: Do you have other other interpretations?

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Speaker 4: I would love?

439
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't really know anything about those parts

440
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 2: of the Bible, of them that Christians weaponized them.

441
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 3: Right, So the gays and lesbians and trans community call

442
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 3: them the claber passages because they get clobbered over the head.

443
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 3: And I have since met these two amazing women. They're married,

444
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 3: they've been married for thirty years in God's eyes, not

445
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 3: legally because they couldn't. They passed her a church in

446
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 3: Long Beach outside of Bellflower called the Glory Center, and

447
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 3: one wrote a book called God's Gay Agenda, and she

448
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,200
Speaker 3: took the six Klabber Passages and did a deep dive

449
00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,439
Speaker 3: scripturally like at seminary level, to unpack them, to explain

450
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 3: how they each have been interpreted in her view, very

451
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 3: incorrectly interesting now and they are even planting her and

452
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 3: her wife are planting churches in Taiwan, which is one

453
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 3: of the most non gay friendly countries in the world.

454
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,879
Speaker 3: I call them beautiful rainbow churches. And now in the

455
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 3: Presbyterian seminar in Taiwan, they're using her book to help

456
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,880
Speaker 3: rethink anyways. So, and I'm finding more and more even

457
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 3: Baptist churches, Methodist churches, churches are starting to license and

458
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 3: ordain the gay, lesbian trans community.

459
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,880
Speaker 1: The cognitive dissonance is just getting too much for even Yeah.

460
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 3: Yes, so somewhere they've they've begun to make light lighter

461
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 3: of and have a greater understanding like they always have

462
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 3: over the years about how to relook at scripture.

463
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 2: Cool anyway, thank you for that aside. I was curious,

464
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: all right, so you have questions, but you're not, like,

465
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 2: I'm not a Christian anymore. Then your life kind of

466
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 2: just blows up.

467
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 3: Yep. And then I end up finding some men's group,

468
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 3: I find some support, I find some medical and brain

469
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 3: chemistry stuff. I look at all these. I want to

470
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:00,959
Speaker 3: be a better Keith version of me, even if I'm

471
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 3: going to be divorced. And through that I started to

472
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: be able to talk about my stuff because I didn't

473
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,959
Speaker 3: have to hide anymore, right, and they always think we're

474
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 3: as sick as our secrets, right, right. And I started

475
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 3: to realize, oh my god, as a pastor, I was

476
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 3: keeping probably the most secrets because I had the most

477
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 3: to lose. Because the higher up you go on the

478
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 3: food chain of religious leadership, the more you have to

479
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 3: be a little bit better than others. And that's you're

480
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 3: keeping more and more secrets to prevent.

481
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: People because human on the other side of the patriarchy

482
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: where you're yeah, the person has to be by themselves

483
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: at the.

484
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 2: Top, right, yeah, right, And I mean, I don't know

485
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 2: how much detail you want to get into, but I'm

486
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 2: curious about, like, how would you how do you conceive

487
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: of the affair that you had now?

488
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, looking back now, yeah, yeah, it's man so many layers, right,

489
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 3: even as well just as a human, I think it

490
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 3: was there was a massive attraction things there that made

491
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 3: it super forbidden fruit taboo, right, and when that stuff's

492
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 3: not ever dealt with. And in Christian culture there wasn't

493
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 3: really even a place to talk about lust fantasy like

494
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 3: in healthy ways sexuality. It was just sort of again,

495
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 3: don't do it, so we don't talk about it, and

496
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 3: when we don't talk about it, it seems to fester.

497
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 4: Totally, right, yeah.

498
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 3: And so even masturbation, oh should you shouldn't you? Well,

499
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 3: you can masturbate, but don't lust. Don't think about someone,

500
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 3: because if you lust, then it's a sin. But if

501
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 3: you're masturbate and you're not thinking about anyone, then is

502
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 3: it okay? There's all these like gray fine lines, right.

503
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 2: Because I've never heard that it's okay to masturbate if

504
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: you're not thinking about anyone other than.

505
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 3: Maybe married spouse of the opposite sex. If you're talking

506
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 3: about heterosexual Christianity.

507
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean, would anyone masturbate about anything else?

508
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 3: Right? Clearly you're not married?

509
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: Oh interesting?

510
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 3: Right, So it just so all that unaddressed in my

511
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 3: own life. You know, our sexuality is going to find

512
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 3: a life. It is a life.

513
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, right, I mean the more I feel like

514
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 5: it's the Mormonism, it has so much of that, because

515
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 5: premarital sex is like considered the absolute worst thing that

516
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 5: you can do other.

517
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: Than murdering someone. And for me, I know, my mama's

518
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: sex communicated for it. Like, so for me, I grew

519
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: up with so so much like fear of that and

520
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: of course, it just made me a fucking weird, kinky

521
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 2: freek like it doesn't work, work to repress it, and

522
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 2: people joke about how, you know, in Mormonism they talk

523
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 2: about this thing soaking, which is like if you're not thrusting,

524
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: it doesn't count, or do it anal before regular set.

525
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: You are saying that you guys will have butt sex

526
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: before normal sex.

527
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: Well I would see that among my friends all the time,

528
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: and like the more oppression there was, the more it

529
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 2: would come out in worse ways. And I do think

530
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 2: I mean sort of separate topic. We could do a

531
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 2: whole episode about that, but like I think that's true

532
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: of the way we talk about monogamy too, is we

533
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: pretend we don't have any sexual feelings outside of her partner,

534
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: and that's just not realistic. It's never going to actually

535
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: exactly work. But you know, it's another to.

536
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 3: Ourselves and nobody's having the real, honest conversation, and.

537
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: Which doesn't mean you have to have an open relationship,

538
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 2: but like you might as well.

539
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: Address it conversation about it.

540
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, so go on.

541
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: Well so strangely enough, in a weird way, so I

542
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 3: had given up. So I watched how the church handle

543
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: all that, and I thought, well, I've got to just

544
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 3: deal with me. I don't you know church, no church.

545
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 3: I resigned from the job. I just got to get better,

546
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 3: so to your journey of getting starting to get well.

547
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: But about a year in my even suit of that,

548
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 3: my wife still at the time hadn't divorced me yet,

549
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 3: but I was just sort of stepping back and watching.

550
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 3: I wasn't living at home, but she was watching me

551
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 3: just navigate because we had to share the share the kids,

552
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 3: and I was living at a buddy's house, and I

553
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 3: was finally free to talk about number one, what had

554
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 3: happened in my own life, as far as the hiding

555
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 3: and the not being able to deal with temptation lust

556
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 3: to talk about it, the hurt I'd obviously done to her.

557
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 3: I was very apologetic, and through that all we grew closer.

558
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 3: It was wild, and as she watched me, we grew

559
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: in because intimacy and sexuality are also two different things,

560
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 3: so we weren't actually physically together yet, but we were

561
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: sharing of compassion. And the more I was vulnerable about

562
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 3: my own call it brokenness, humanness, the more drawnic to

563
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 3: me she was, and trust was rebuilt and we end

564
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 3: up renewing our wedding mouse wow.

565
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 4: Wow.

566
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 3: And I was like, this is kind of a miracle.

567
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: Like I still thought even if church is done, wow,

568
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 3: God did this, Like this must be a God thing,

569
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 3: because it would seem like we take an act of

570
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 3: God to get where we got. I was now on

571
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 3: meds for addressing anxiety and depression. I was in some

572
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: men's groups dealing with just having an honest place to

573
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 3: talk about feeling sadness, disappointment, all this stuff underneath addiction. Right,

574
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 3: and here we were having this kind of cool life,

575
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 3: but we were super apart from the church, and the

576
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: church kind of was like, well, we fired you, but

577
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 3: we want to restore you. That's a big word in

578
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: the church too. We're going to restore you, which is

579
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: like we're going to give you the stamp you're not

580
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 3: okay in our eyes, but we're going to give you

581
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 3: the stamp that you are okay, but you've got to

582
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 3: jump through whatever hoops we set up through what we

583
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 3: call a restoration process. I'm like, okay, well what is that? Well,

584
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: slow down. They said this is like nine months or

585
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 3: a year into it. I was like, okay, well, here

586
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: are the meds. I'm on, here's the therapist I'm seeing,

587
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 3: here's our marriage counselor would you like to come to

588
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 3: our vow renewal. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going too fast,

589
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 3: is what the church leaders said. I was like, going

590
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,239
Speaker 3: too fast, like you're trying to run your own restoration process. No,

591
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 3: I'm just actually getting better if you guys want to

592
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: track it, you know. But it was almost like they

593
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 3: I realized the church doesn't actually know what to do

594
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 3: with healing and wellness. We usually abort, right human you know,

595
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 3: they call it a scapegoat. It's actually a biblical term. Right.

596
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 3: We cast all of our stuff onto one person, and

597
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 3: they carry their the sins of the men away on

598
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 3: the scapegoat. In some ways, when they sent me away,

599
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 3: I took all of their lust with me. So anyways,

600
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: so long story short, they ended up tracking me for

601
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 3: another year, hired an expert consultant. He came in, watched

602
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 3: my journey, and rode up a beautiful restaurant of beautiful

603
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 3: plan that says, look what Keith and my wife's named

604
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 3: Gina at the time have done is beautiful, wonderful, and

605
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: you guys should restore them clean. Bill of health, and

606
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: so the church was like, okay, I guess we have

607
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 3: to take the consultant's view, and they did it, but

608
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 3: they said, but we don't have a place for you here.

609
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 3: So it's like you're totally well, we give you a

610
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 3: clean bill of health, but you can't serve here anymore.

611
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 3: And I realized it was like we built a bitch

612
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 3: and ferrari, you know, from scratch, and it had a

613
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 3: lot of horsepower and it was sexy and everybody wanted

614
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: to ride it because it was growing and you know,

615
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: and then had so much horsepower it threw me off.

616
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 3: They backed over, ran over me, or I ran over myself.

617
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: They all jumped in the driver's seat and took off,

618
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: and there was no room for me to get back

619
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 3: into the by then, actually I was sane enough to

620
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: realize I probably didn't want to go back in.

621
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 4: And why was that?

622
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: I realized I was. I didn't like that Every Sunday

623
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 3: you got to rally people and make pump them up,

624
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 3: and the music and the band and the emotional and

625
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: it felt like a giant raw raw that was a

626
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 3: kind of like people weren't worshiping God, they were worshiping.

627
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 4: An experience like a pep rally.

628
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: A pep rally for God and the emotional, and we

629
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: could forget that we were human and flawed, and we

630
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 3: could come and sort of live in this denial, sweep

631
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 3: by and by of what's going to be. But then

632
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 3: you leave and by you know, Sunday afternoon, you're back

633
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 3: to being human right again? And then what right? And

634
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: I realized I had done that. I had been raised

635
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: in that, I had led, I had worked for a

636
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: church that did that. I had led that, and it

637
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: where did it get me? So there's got to be

638
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 3: something else. And I started to look at even twelve

639
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 3: Steps and other types of curriculum just for life growth. Yeah, actually,

640
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 3: there's going to be other stuff that helps us deal

641
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 3: with our stuff, just deal with humanity. I'm like, if

642
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: I ever started a church again, it'd be like called

643
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: rock Bottom and the tagline is where none of us

644
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 3: have our shit together, Like probably no one, But who

645
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,719
Speaker 3: wants to come to a church like that in Orange County?

646
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 3: Who's going to? Because we pick we want to. If

647
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 3: we're gonna go to church, we're gonna pick a church

648
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: full winners, right right right? If if you've drunk the

649
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 3: kool aid right.

650
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 4: I want to go to the loser church.

651
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 3: That sounds great, right, right, And so I ended up well,

652
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 3: So anyway, so I started a nonprofit. I started working

653
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: with pro athletes, businessmen and pastors who were having those

654
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 3: same stories, and churches or wives or businesses or companies

655
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 3: were sending them, you know, to go get resources because

656
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 3: they were hitting bottom in their life from addiction, from burnout,

657
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 3: from alcoholism, from affairs, from porn.

658
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: So at that point, you were in a twelve step

659
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: program yourself, yep.

660
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: Yep, dealing with you know, men who use sex lust,

661
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 3: you know, adrenaline, you know, as a form of not

662
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: living in reality, the magic, the chemistry, the fantasy, right,

663
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 3: And I wanted to live in reality.

664
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's the sentence. I feel like that's the

665
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: sort of encompasses this whole conversation that we're having.

666
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 3: That was the start of I just want to live

667
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: in reality, like this is real, and I didn't need

668
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: the pizazz, and to go back in that I felt

669
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: like I would lose the reality, like it would suck

670
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 3: me back into this mythical world where the full of

671
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: blinders of the reality of just being human interesting and

672
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 3: then it's okay, we're just Yeah. So that started beyond

673
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 3: this journey and the dance though, was I was raising

674
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 3: my girls, and I was trying to figure out how

675
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 3: to make a living, and I had income from my

676
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: ex well my wife is still at the time in

677
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: her family and they have a trust and anyways. So

678
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: I was able to do some nonprofit and do some

679
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: really good stuff in the world and borrow anyway. But

680
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 3: as my wife and I navigated that world, I was

681
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: really drawn now to the misfits, the down and outers,

682
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 3: the people at rock bottom that needed my help. And

683
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: she was less and I understand it. We're not all

684
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: cut out to live in the margins, right in the

685
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: back alleys in the And so we raised our kids

686
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: for ten more years, been at the seventeen year mark.

687
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 3: In twenty eleven, we did separate and peacefully divorce.

688
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds healthy.

689
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,959
Speaker 3: And I started a church two months later called Reclaimed

690
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: with the LGBTQ community and two gay pastors who'd come

691
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: out and throw to the wolves.

692
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 4: Wow.

693
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: So I wasn't totally done with Like, I wanted to

694
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 3: give Jesus a chance, but it was Jesus for the misfits,

695
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: Jesus for the marginalized Jesus.

696
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 4: You mean Jesus.

697
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right.

698
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 4: Yeah the way.

699
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 3: I thought, Well, people, I'm still Keith Paige. People still

700
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: know me. I had the churches who wouldn't want to

701
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: come to, you know, like even a little wants to

702
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: come right, and the g to a wopping size of

703
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: about forty max four years. I was like, Okay, is

704
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: it because I was the adulter? Is it because now

705
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: I love gay, trans lesbian people. Is it because it's

706
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 3: called reclaimed? You know I didn't it is because I

707
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 3: went through a divorce. I was like, I'm sort of

708
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 3: the three strike guy. You know, maybe it's me right right?

709
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: Whereas God then was I played the head games. Is

710
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: God's still punishing me? Right? Am I still paying for

711
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 3: my sins? Because the Bible says we'll pay for the

712
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 3: sins of our ancestors and our ancestors and their ancestors.

713
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: So did you have an official moment in your life

714
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: where you were like, I don't have faith anymore. I

715
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: just want to, like I want to be able to

716
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: face this life of mine without this idea of like

717
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: heaven and yes, But.

718
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 3: It took about six or seven more years. So I

719
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 3: had already buried both my parents still, you know, in nine.

720
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 3: In twenty twelve, they both died of cancer, and I

721
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 3: spoke at their funerals. They wanted they were care very Christian.

722
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 3: Of course, I was still sort of a pastor, but

723
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 3: I liked to gay lesbian people. At this point, right,

724
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 3: I was no longer I legal. I mean, I wasn't

725
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: at a church. I was just pastoring people in life.

726
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 3: And I've gone through a divorce, so a lot of grief.

727
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 3: But here I am chugging it out eleven, twenty twelve,

728
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 3: thirteen fourteen, helping hurting people. But I just felt like

729
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: I can't get a break, Like God, how much longer?

730
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 3: Where is there going to be a breakthrough of some

731
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: sort that shows you're in this with me? And this

732
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 3: isn't just a Keith attempt at something. And I was

733
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 3: doing a funeral in South Orange County of mortuary hired

734
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 3: me because by then I started to just realize I

735
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 3: just want to speak human to people. And there was

736
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 3: a mortual in South Orange County. They were starting to

737
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 3: use the term celebrant, which is sort of a secular

738
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 3: officient and I was doing one and a guy I

739
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 3: saw a guy in the crowd I recognized, and I'm like, wait,

740
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 3: I know him from thirty years ago. He used to

741
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 3: be he's a Christian leader. I wonder what he's doing here.

742
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 3: I ended up meeting him. His names Bart, and he

743
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 3: said that was a He didn't recognize me. He goes, dude,

744
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: that was great. What you just did. What do you

745
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: call that? He says, what are you? And I'm like, oh,

746
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 3: he's really intrigued because it wasn't a religious service, it

747
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: was a human celebration of life. And I said, aren't

748
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: you Bart Campolo? And I said, I'm Keith Page and

749
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 3: I said what. He goes, oh, I'm a humanist now

750
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 3: and I said, what's a humanist? He said, what you

751
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: just did as a freaking humanist. We need to talk.

752
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 3: He said, I'm the humanist chaplain at USC. I said, dude,

753
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 3: we're got to talk. So he went back to LA.

754
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 3: We talked on the phone that week for about two hours,

755
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 3: and he said, dude, he said, you do funerals for

756
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 3: people all the time. I've heard your whole story. When

757
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: are you going to do a funeral for your faith?

758
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 3: I remember where I was walking down the back alley

759
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 3: of my neighborhood. I started to weep.

760
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, and I.

761
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 3: Said, I've been pulling the dead body strapped to my life.

762
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 3: And I was still jumping, doing all the mechanisms of

763
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 3: things called church without any belief that there was a

764
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 3: big God. He said, make up your own definitions and

765
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,720
Speaker 3: purpose of your life. What do you want? Stop thinking

766
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 3: that God has to bless it, God has to ordain it.

767
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 3: You are in control of your life. Right, And it

768
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 3: clicked in twenty seventeen.

769
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 4: Find in your own meaning?

770
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 3: And I said, you mean I get to pick my

771
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 3: own meaning. I get to defy. I get to be,

772
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 3: you know, the originator and the author of meaning in life.

773
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 3: He said, absolutely.

774
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: It sounds so empowering as you're saying it permissions. But

775
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: I feel like in my life, I'm like, yeah, but

776
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: I don't fucking know that's okay. But God, there's like

777
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what this idea of God would actually

778
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: be anyway, because everyone's telling me something completely different about

779
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: what he thinks.

780
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 3: I said, all these years, it was all this fog. Anyways,

781
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 3: everybody made up their own thing to Still they were

782
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 3: using religion as their big hammer to justify their life.

783
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: But nobody had a changed life or the authority to

784
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: really prove because everyone had their own view anyway.

785
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: Right, everyone is claiming that they're the ones with the

786
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: true faith and they have the real answers.

787
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: They've interpreted it correctly, they're handling God's word faithfully, and

788
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 3: everyone else isn't what a breakthrough to amazing breakthrough, amazing breakthrough.

789
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 4: Sure, I'm sure it was really hard too. Though.

790
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 3: It was hard because then it was how do I

791
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: authentically have conversations with everyone in my life? Who is

792
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 3: going I'm going to want to share about I do?

793
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,959
Speaker 3: How to share vulnerably about my life I'm learning and doing?

794
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: How could I leave that part out? That would be

795
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: the biggest edit of it. So I didn't know how

796
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 3: to talk about it first. At first, I said, oh,

797
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 3: I'm struggling in my faith or I've been challenged in

798
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 3: my faith, and those all went wrong because if you

799
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 3: tell people you're struggling your faith, they think it's their

800
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 3: job to help you, or to pray for you, or

801
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 3: to have a conversation with you. So Bart, actually I

802
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 3: realized he has a business now. He has since moved

803
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 3: to Cincinnati and he's now a chaplain at the University

804
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: of Cincinnati, but he has an online coaching business helping

805
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 3: coach clergy and pastors and Christians who are leaving their faith. Wow,

806
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 3: he's aside. So he gave me but basically donated to

807
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 3: me some of his time to coach me through that journey.

808
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: Wow.

809
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: And one key tool he gave me, he said, look

810
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 3: back over your life. I want you to identify the

811
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 3: key values of your life back in the heyday of

812
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 3: even your Christian faith. I said, Okay, that's easy. Belonging, growing, serving,

813
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 3: and a sense of awe and mystery. He said, I

814
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 3: bet you still live by those same values. You just

815
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 3: define them a little differently. Yeah, because I used to think,

816
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 3: Oh to belong, well, you've got to be part of

817
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: a Christian faith. Oh, you can belong in the human race.

818
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: Or you got to have to grow you got to

819
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 3: be like christ like character. No, you just pick people

820
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 3: that you identify with and learn from and grow. Right.

821
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 3: Serve you got to ask what would Jesus do? No,

822
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: I just have to say, what's the next best thing

823
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 3: for humans? On mystery? Oh, you got to ask Jesus,

824
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 3: you know, to show you the odd mystery? No, watch

825
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 3: someone die, watch your baby be born, watch a sunset.

826
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, I'm living the same

827
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 3: core values of my life. I've not changed the story,

828
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: maybe some of the meaning of those things, but I'm

829
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 3: still me very helpful. Love that super anchoring. Yahise it

830
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 3: could be super you know, disorienting and be like what

831
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: do I do now?

832
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 2: I feel like we get DMS about this and people

833
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 2: talk about it when they come out, like realizing you

834
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: don't believe in the thing that you had centered your

835
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: life around is just like you feel like you're floating

836
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: in space, like what do you attach to? What to

837
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: your hold on? How do you know what's right?

838
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 4: Yeah? I love it.

839
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 3: And they're probably universal meaning they're like a true north right,

840
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 3: they're universal to all of the human condition, belonging universal

841
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 3: to all of us. We all want to belong personal growth,

842
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 3: we all want to grow serving, we all want to serve,

843
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 3: make the right not everyone wants to.

844
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: Serve yeah right, yeah, yeah, but our needs yeah yeah?

845
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 4: And then redefining it.

846
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 3: And how did we get here even as a human race?

847
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: I bet we served. I bet those that cooperated best,

848
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: you know, can serve each other in in cooperation probably

849
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 3: their gene pool. I bet survived better. Yeah, we're serving

850
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 3: in some.

851
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: Way or another, right, having a community to rely on,

852
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: and yeah, totally.

853
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 3: And then on mystery. Right, there's just something beautiful about inspiring. Yeah,

854
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: it doesn't for me, doesn't require a belief in God.

855
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 6: Anymore, which is still so weird to say after I

856
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 6: bet yeah, you know, yeah, I'm still a newbie.

857
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: Right, I'm like five, six, seven years into this journey.

858
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 3: But then adding the death element just added so much value,

859
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 3: and I realize death has become the great offer me inspiring.

860
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so how did you discover that?

861
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 3: Well? I think as I started to the funeral stuff. Right,

862
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 3: as a funeral celebrant, I get a call from the

863
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 3: mortuary saying, Hey, the Johnson families, you know, patriarch just

864
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 3: died and they need to celebrate and we want you

865
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 3: to do it. Are you available in two weeks from now?

866
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 3: And if I say yes, they give me the Johnson's

867
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: phone number and they say, next to Kinn is his wife,

868
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: you know, Sally Johnson. So I have to call Sally.

869
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 3: I say, Hi, Sally, it's Keith, you know, and my

870
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 3: condolences and I know your family wants to celebrate and

871
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 3: can I meet with you? And your family next week

872
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 3: to get all together so I can learn about your

873
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 3: amazing husband and the dad and grandpa. So that I

874
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 3: would go and show up at the family home, and

875
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: I always sy I knock on the door, a total stranger.

876
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: They don't know me. Yeah, And I spend ninety minutes

877
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 3: to two hours just saying I want to learn about

878
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: mister Johnson. You know, if we're going to celebrate his life,

879
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 3: please begin, I just want to and I just sit

880
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 3: and listen, listen right, And as I do so, it's

881
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 3: like I'm like they're channeling him to me and I'm

882
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 3: receiving him here and I'm taking a ton of notes.

883
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 3: And then afterwards I say, okay, I've heard a bunch

884
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 3: and I can tell a bunch of his story to

885
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 3: some of you want to help tell you we don't

886
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 3: want to speak, we want you to speak or grant

887
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 3: He goes. I think I want to try a little bit,

888
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 3: but Keith, you do the bulk of it right. So

889
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 3: by the so then I get up, you know, two

890
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,479
Speaker 3: weeks later, and do this funeral, and it's I'm having

891
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 3: this awe amazing experience because I see the family so

892
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: grateful that mister Johnson's being so honored, right, and I'm

893
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 3: seeing them need that we as humans need anchor points

894
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 3: for goodbyes, and that launches us into more of our

895
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 3: grief journey. And then his story is being told. And

896
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 3: then at the end, I often say, let's never forget

897
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,720
Speaker 3: to say his name and tell his story and remember

898
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 3: how he lived, and then he lives on in us. Right,

899
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 3: So as I do that, though, this is powerful. What

900
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 3: if I could get a running start and work with

901
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 3: people before they die. You know, I'm getting to know

902
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 3: mister Johnson when he's dead. What if I can get

903
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 3: to know mister Johnson when he's dying with cancer?

904
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 2: Right?

905
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, that's kind of what chaplains do.

906
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 3: So I started exploring the chaplain model. And then somebody

907
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 3: that the mortuary said you should be a death dulo.

908
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 3: I said, what's that? He said, well, look it up.

909
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 3: And then I found this woman in La Sacred Crossings Rever, Olivia,

910
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 3: and I went and got trained for six months with her,

911
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, chaplain is one element of

912
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: walking with people. Being a death midwife is more a

913
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 3: little more of the woo side, you know, like you

914
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: say death midwife in Orange County for sure, and people

915
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 3: like what you say, chaplain, they sort of get it.

916
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 3: And I'm just sort of weaving my way into learning

917
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 3: just to be with people who are either getting a

918
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 3: diagnosis or the family who's the loved one's getting the diagnosis.

919
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 3: And I started reading books and finding podcasts and or

920
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 3: documentaries around people who do this work, and it would

921
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 3: quicken my spirit.

922
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: Do you identify with the death positive movement?

923
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 3: Yeah? What would you say that is? What is the

924
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 3: death positive movement? Is that just that we are not

925
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 3: in fear of Yeah.

926
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: I think it's an attempt to not avoid and to

927
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: face and to see it as like just a natural

928
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 2: part of life instead of this like scary for sure thing.

929
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I feel like I wanted to be a voice

930
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: to help normalize It's funny you have to normalize death.

931
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the most.

932
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: The most universal thing you can that on for our lives.

933
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 3: But how do we normalize it much like we were

934
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 3: to birth? Yeah, and take some of the stigma.

935
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: It's interesting because so I grew up around a lot

936
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: of death. So in the religion that I was in,

937
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 1: we were always going to funerals, always as open casket funerals.

938
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,959
Speaker 1: Also had a lot of medical professionals, so people would

939
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: always come to our house to die.

940
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 4: I saw a few people die in the hospital, just

941
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 4: a lot of death.

942
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: And it's always interesting to me because I think when

943
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: I was a little bit more little, I would have

944
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: preferred less. But now, yeah, you know, but I do

945
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: think that there's an age, and I don't think it's

946
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 1: a very old age where it should start to become

947
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: a part of the conversation a lot more, because even

948
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: now in my life, I'm talking to friends who are like,

949
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: my Grandma's gonna die, and I'm.

950
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, right, yeah, did you not know that? And

951
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 4: they're like no, like so fucking baffled by.

952
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's this like interesting line where I'm glad

953
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: that I'm so familiar with it and sometimes wish it

954
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: would have been a little bit I mean, it doesn't

955
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: ground fun. It's a little fun, not fun, but yeah,

956
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: it's interesting.

957
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, especially at least maybe for some of the you know,

958
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: it sounds like even strangers were coming into your house

959
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 3: to die, or people you didn't know very well, maybe

960
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 3: your family did. I think for grand you know, if

961
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,479
Speaker 3: grandparents die, it'd be beautiful to have the grandchildren be able

962
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 3: to like, if I could have do it over again,

963
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 3: I would have had my mom. You know, normally when

964
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 3: in California at least maybe in the US, when a

965
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: body dies, we quickly call the mortuary and the men

966
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 3: in the suits and the van come and if they

967
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 3: died home on hospice, they come and within a half

968
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 3: hour hour.

969
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: They get it out of site.

970
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 3: We got to get it out. Yeah, an hour ago.

971
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 3: We were all around her, you know, her bedside, you know,

972
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 3: kissing her and telling her we love her. As soon

973
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: as their spirit's gone, we think a dirty, unclean Sure

974
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 3: what to do with it? And what I teach people

975
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 3: now and invite people to do is just to slow down.

976
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 3: We don't have to do anything right now. Yeah right, Like,

977
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 3: let's just breathe, let's just be with this moment.

978
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:35,479
Speaker 4: Yeah.

979
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 2: Well, and what do you say to people, like, you know,

980
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: let's say you're doing the dry ice thing and you

981
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 2: have you know, you're kind of letting the body be

982
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: there so that the family can be with it. And

983
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: one of the kids is like, ew right, Like what

984
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: do you say when people have that reaction to that?

985
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 3: Yeah? I wish I have had more experience doing the drys.

986
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: It's only been once or twice so far for me,

987
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 3: because it's new in Orange County, I'm hearing enough stories.

988
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 3: Usually there's like one sibling or one family member that

989
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 3: wants it. That's why it's happening, right, And so sometimes

990
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: they go, I don't want to be a part of it.

991
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 3: Make sure we keep her in the bedroom. We don't

992
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 3: want her in the living room, right, So we said, great,

993
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 3: So we create almost like a little place of honor

994
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 3: in the bedroom. We close the blinds like some candles

995
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 3: shroud her. We've already maybe bathed her just as a

996
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 3: ceremonial bathing, and she's ready, right, And then we just

997
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 3: say to that family member, you don't have to go

998
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: in there. You know, you could just be out here

999
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 3: with the family and visit. There's We're not forcing anyone

1000
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 3: to go back and hang out with mom in the bedroom.

1001
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 3: But you know what, I hear stories from Olivia who

1002
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 3: often going first with the grandkids are out playing in

1003
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 3: the yard and they run in and they grab a cookie.

1004
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 3: Then they go, let's go check on grandma. And they

1005
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 3: run down the hall and they look at Grandma and like,

1006
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 3: you know, and it's like then they run back out

1007
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 3: and they play some more like maybe we should learn

1008
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 3: from the children. Right, let's just go in and just

1009
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 3: check out her for a minute, you know, just yeah,

1010
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 3: And often, say over twelve hours or twenty four hours,

1011
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 3: those who were less comfortable might slowly make their way

1012
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 3: in and then they have the biggest profound moment and

1013
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 3: often tears and often I'm so glad somebody sort of

1014
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 3: invited me into this moment of discomfort and then I

1015
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 3: pushed through, right, even where then like husband, the son

1016
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 3: in laws who didn't want to be involved, then end

1017
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 3: up going to home depot and buying the wood and

1018
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 3: making homemade casket wow, bringing it wow, right, And so

1019
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 3: it gives opportunity for everyone to begin to participate somehow.

1020
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something just so beautiful and I think important

1021
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: about making more of a ritual out of death. Like

1022
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: you know, it's like they take the body away and

1023
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: then you have a funeral for a couple hours and

1024
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: that's it. That's all we're gonna do to address this loss.

1025
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:52,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, bem a puppet show.

1026
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 3: I want you guys to do a puppet show with

1027
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 3: you with you, like you guys, you.

1028
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: Have to see what you die first. I would to.

1029
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 3: Weekend at Bernie's moving from the eighties. You got to

1030
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 3: see take you out?

1031
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean.

1032
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, like do some stuff, Yeah yeah, I know.

1033
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 4: Options are endless. What have you done anything odd?

1034
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 3: I did hear about a family where, uh man, they

1035
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 3: had this old classic car and they wanted to be

1036
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 3: like like, they wanted to look as if they were

1037
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 3: driving her ride in the car. So they put her

1038
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: body in the in one door, but then out the

1039
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 3: other door and into another vehicle. But then the car

1040
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 3: drove away and it looked like she was in it

1041
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 3: with them.

1042
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 4: This woman is awesome. Wow.

1043
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 3: And then the people that were most moved by it

1044
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 3: was the entire neighborhood because the neighbors start to hear like, oh,

1045
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 3: Betty died and they didn't she's Betty's and Betty's in

1046
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,280
Speaker 3: the bedroom. Yeah, that the Smiths have Betty in the bedroom.

1047
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 3: Should we go over, let's take a castrole, And then

1048
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 3: you know a few people move in and then and

1049
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 3: it's often in the midwife movement especially, they have what's

1050
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 3: called home funerals, so the body never leaves the home

1051
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 3: until you've finally done. So it's like the bodies on

1052
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 3: dry eyes for a few days. While that's happening, you're

1053
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 3: letting the family know they're in the living room or

1054
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 3: in the backyard. We're having her the front yard, we're

1055
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 3: going to have her celebration of life, we're going to

1056
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 3: have her funeral. And the neighbors start to come out,

1057
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 3: and they're captivated and curious and ultimately very moved, and

1058
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 3: by the end they're saying, do you have a card.

1059
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 3: It's been radically impacted and changed by this. It's so cool,

1060
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 3: isn't that amazing?

1061
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1062
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 3: Clearly it's little by little, right, little by little.

1063
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, you can't just run up and go die.

1064
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: Right, we are all going to die. Let's celebrate it.

1065
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has to cast all like, yeah, it has to.

1066
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 4: Start with the you can use.

1067
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 3: That aste death death overcast.

1068
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: I mean why castrole? Why is that?

1069
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 3: Right? It was like something that people throw it.

1070
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: Guess because you can just put it and you can

1071
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: easily heat it leftover right, right?

1072
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1073
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 2: I do love castrole. I love a cast Please bring

1074
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: me a cast I was honestly disappointed that when my

1075
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 2: dog died, no one brought me a cast role.

1076
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that's so sad.

1077
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 2: Oh I'm going to do it now, thank you. You

1078
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: made an ai RT of him.

1079
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,439
Speaker 4: That was enough good? I made him ay sweet? Really yeah,

1080
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 4: because he was a king. I love him.

1081
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 3: So let's talk about how was that for you to

1082
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 3: have the past scene of Donna Rambo.

1083
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I just cried about him the other day,

1084
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 2: like it's obviously very sad, but he was sixteen, and

1085
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: I had thought he was dying as like four years before,

1086
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: and I thought he was dying again, and then I

1087
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: thought he was dying again, and it just kept turning out,

1088
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 2: Oh no, he just has this like illness that he

1089
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,320
Speaker 2: needs a medication for and that's not like fucking sucks,

1090
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 2: so no one knew it. But so I think I

1091
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 2: just like had thought he was dying so many times

1092
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 2: that by that point I was like, well, I'm on

1093
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 2: borrow time, like this is just like I'm grateful that

1094
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 2: I even get this time with him. And I like

1095
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: knew it was going to come eventually, so it didn't

1096
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: it didn't hurt as much as in my head it would.

1097
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 2: I was like, it's just going to be this, like

1098
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to survive when he dies.

1099
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 2: And then he did, and my friends were there and

1100
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: my boyfriend was there who you met and comforted me

1101
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: and were with me and let me take as long

1102
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 2: as I needed with him, and it was okay, you know,

1103
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 2: like it was sad and awful, but and I still

1104
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 2: miss him and I still think he's I still think

1105
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: I hear his little click clack feet on the floor sometimes,

1106
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: but like I'm okay, you know. And that was really

1107
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 2: eye opening because I haven't you know, for people who

1108
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 2: aren't dog owners in my sound ridiculous, but like for

1109
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: you know, someone who with a pet, like your pet's

1110
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: your fucking life.

1111
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 4: You know.

1112
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: And I there was a period like I had a

1113
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 2: breakup a few years ago, and then it was the

1114
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 2: pandemic and I was like, oh my god, if I

1115
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 2: lose him, I won't I won't be okay, And then

1116
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 2: it was. And that was just helpful to know that, like, okay,

1117
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: when I have to deal with this on a much

1118
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 2: greater scale with an actual human that I love, like

1119
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 2: it's going to be horrible, but like if I survived

1120
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 2: this one, I could probably survive those ones, even though'll

1121
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 2: be they'll obviously be a lot harder. So that, yeah,

1122
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: it was interesting to observe myself.

1123
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: Right, did you do a memorial type or remembrance at all.

1124
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 3: For Rambles I.

1125
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 2: Did with Jack, just with Jack. Yeah, he got me this,

1126
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: this book of dog poems by this poet I love.

1127
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 2: And we when we got his ashes, we like, you know,

1128
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: read through, read some dog poems together and did a

1129
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 2: little service. And I have a little shrine to Rambone

1130
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: in my apartment. So it was helpful. It was helpful

1131
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: to have a ritual and not just like you know,

1132
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 2: try to avoid it.

1133
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 4: I guess right, Yeah.

1134
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 3: We need that. I really believe we use humans need

1135
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 3: rights of passage and markers to help us navigate these things.

1136
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,959
Speaker 2: Megan, for you is growing up having grown up around

1137
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: so much death. I didn't realize it was quite that

1138
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: much death. I didn't realize people were coming to your

1139
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 2: house to die. Oh yeah, how many?

1140
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 4: I think three people have died at our house? Wow?

1141
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, these my I mean, my grandparents died, but I

1142
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 2: was so young, and you know, I just like didn't

1143
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 2: spend that much time with their bodies or anything, so

1144
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 2: it all felt very foreign to me. Like do you

1145
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: feel a terror of loved ones dying? Or Oh?

1146
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, I mean I think that definitely. It's

1147
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 1: just so surreal. I think that's the biggest thing. But

1148
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: when you like fully understand that it's really happening, I

1149
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 1: think is when it becomes more surreal for some reason.

1150
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: But also at the same time, it does feel like

1151
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 1: a process that's normalized and that I can like have

1152
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: some knowledge around, which is helpful.

1153
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, yeah, who's the closest person.

1154
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 4: Who's the closest I mean I've had, like I'm interviewing you.

1155
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I.

1156
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: Mean I just went home like two months ago, maybe

1157
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: four my grandpa died, so I was therefore like.

1158
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 4: We were all in the room with them.

1159
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: And but like my parents are both still alive, and

1160
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 1: you know, like cousins or super close friends, but friends,

1161
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: you know, a roommate in college, but yeah, nobody my

1162
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:31,399
Speaker 1: parents would be the.

1163
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 2: Real Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do, Like I know,

1164
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: I'll be able to handle anything, but like the idea

1165
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 2: of my mom dying makes me want to die.

1166
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 4: Yes, I guess, okay, yeah.

1167
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a friend. I had a friend died,

1168
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: but it wasn't someone super close. But you know, that

1169
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 2: was the first time someone like around my age died,

1170
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 2: which was very weird. I still want to text him.

1171
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes people really really lose it over celebrity dying. It's

1172
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: shocking sometimes, but like I think that's sometimes people's first

1173
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 1: experience with depth.

1174
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: That's yeah, have you ever had that experience?

1175
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:15,479
Speaker 4: No? I was around too much real depth.

1176
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: No, I haven't had like a favorite celebrity die or

1177
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: been so invested in a television show that when one

1178
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: of the people dies, it's like WHOA.

1179
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 4: But I have read a lot of people really really like.

1180
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: Have their first existential experience through celebrities or TV characters,

1181
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: which is interesting.

1182
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 2: I mean Jack kind of had that. Sorry to blow

1183
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 2: up your spot track, but my boyfriend had that. When

1184
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 2: this this man, Michael Brooks died. Do you know who

1185
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 2: he was? He he was a host of a like

1186
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 2: podcast and show called Majority Report, I believe, And he

1187
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 2: had this extremely humanistic perspective on politics, just like really

1188
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 2: championed care for others and critiquing systems and not individual people.

1189
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 2: It was just like those were kind of brilliant, like

1190
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: incredibly wise and empathetic mind. And he died at like

1191
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 2: forty one. And Jack was really impacted by that just

1192
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 2: because it was like there's so much he could so

1193
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 2: much impact he could have had on people. There was

1194
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: so much more he had to do and say, and

1195
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 2: we just like don't get that. We never get that right,

1196
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 2: So that makes I mean, it makes sense totally.

1197
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 3: I saw that in my own life and then my

1198
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:27,240
Speaker 3: commune around Kobe.

1199
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 4: Oh my god, oh my god.

1200
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 3: I should be in customers in Newport and people involved

1201
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 3: in his basketball league knowing his you know, like friends

1202
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 3: of my daughters went to school with his girls. And

1203
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 3: again young age accident you know, massive right movies. Yeah, yeah,

1204
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 3: very kind of destabilizing.

1205
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: We were downtown just asking random people questions and we

1206
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: asked all these men when the last time you cried?

1207
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 1: And they all said, Kobe, Wow, it was so heartbreaking,

1208
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, yeah that really Yeah,

1209
00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: that really blew some guys brands out of it.

1210
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 4: Is there anything about death that surprised you that?

1211
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 3: Yes, I used to show up thinking, especially when I

1212
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 3: was still a pastor and the family asked me to

1213
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 3: show up and feel like I had to say either

1214
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 3: some magic words or have to do some sort of prayer,

1215
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 3: and this idea of like what am I doing and

1216
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 3: saying can they hear me? You know, they haven't died yet,

1217
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 3: but they're you know, at home on hospice and they're

1218
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:29,439
Speaker 3: maybe already no longer coherent, but the hope that maybe

1219
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: they can still hear sort of praying for them. Anyways,

1220
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 3: this idea of having to back in the day, show

1221
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 3: up and kind of be the guru. And now very

1222
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 3: much I see the one dying as my teacher and

1223
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 3: they're the ones that and I am a student and

1224
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 3: just a witness to their living and how they leave,

1225
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 3: how they die. So that's been a big shift. And

1226
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 3: then each person I'm with, especially as a hospice chaplain,

1227
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 3: I don't have to go and fix, I don't have

1228
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 3: to go and make better. I don't have to go

1229
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 3: and give the magic words. I get to go and

1230
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 3: show up and be with and in some ways learn

1231
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 3: learned from them.

1232
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, exactly learned.

1233
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 3: From their own death and dying. Oh wow, So that's

1234
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 3: a biggie.

1235
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: Have you worked with younger people deaths?

1236
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 3: Mostly those have been mostly in the way of funerals

1237
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 3: less right. We have a young person in his thirties

1238
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 3: that's on hospice from liver cancer, liver failure, you know,

1239
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 3: drinking himself to death. But now he's come off of

1240
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 3: hospice because now he's trying to get a liver transplant.

1241
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 3: You can't get a liver transplant on in lying there

1242
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 3: if you're so now he's but then he you know,

1243
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 3: then he he has about where he is set back

1244
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 3: into back in the right, and they say, we don't

1245
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 3: think you're a candidate for transplants. So he's like, I

1246
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 3: come back on hospice, fighting, fighting to live. But he's

1247
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 3: also already written out his whole death plan. Who he wants,

1248
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 3: his pallbearers, where he wants to be buried, He's paid

1249
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 3: for a plot.

1250
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: Wow.

1251
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 3: So it's really this juxtapos between him being ready in

1252
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 3: some ways, at least the legal financial element ready. But

1253
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 3: do I still have a chance to maybe get a

1254
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 3: liver transplant if possible, Like I don't want to go

1255
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 3: out at least without trying.

1256
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's yeah, but difficult, yes, dilemma.

1257
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 3: And then I've done many suicides and overdoses, accidental and

1258
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 3: or purposeful, you know, overdoses, and those the wreckage I'm

1259
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 3: so sad, the wreckage of the family, you know, the

1260
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 3: fam showing up in the family's home and they're just

1261
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 3: they look like, you know, just there's no life in

1262
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 3: their own eyes. When I look at a mom or

1263
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 3: a dad who's loved one who's just you know, a

1264
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:39,919
Speaker 3: young twenty something has just died.

1265
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, how does that not wear you down? Emotionally?

1266
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 3: I feel like I find friendship in their grief. Like

1267
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 3: Mike somehow super almost said supernaturally, it wouldn't be supernaturally,

1268
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 3: it would be energetically or emotionally my grief. That I'm

1269
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 3: a griever now like I know grief, I'm a grief

1270
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 3: is my own companion and witness to my life, having

1271
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 3: been through losses and experienced deaths and losses. So as

1272
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 3: I join them in their grief, my grief finds a

1273
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 3: companion in their grief, and so their grief doesn't overwhelm me,

1274
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 3: and I don't feel like I have to fix it again.

1275
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 3: I know I can't fix it. I know there's no

1276
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 3: magic words. I know their grief is going to be

1277
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 3: their journey, and ultimately their grief fingers crossed, can also

1278
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 3: be somewhere in there a gift. Even in their grief,

1279
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 3: there can be some gift that awaits them.

1280
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 4: Well, it's certainly a teacher, and.

1281
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 3: Grief is going to be their great teacher, right, And

1282
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 3: so that helps me not fall apart during and then afterwards.

1283
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 3: I just have to always practice self care. I've given

1284
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 3: myself more permission than ever to sleep, more than ever,

1285
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 3: live in my pajamas on off days.

1286
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I have a question.

1287
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: Has it taught you anything more about how you want

1288
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: to live life?

1289
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah? Each day being such a gift. It causes

1290
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 3: me to focus every day on just the people I

1291
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 3: want to spend time with, ah, and less worried about

1292
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 3: spending time with those that you know in some ways

1293
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 3: I don't want to spend time with yeah.

1294
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1295
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 3: And then also being open though to the surprise moments

1296
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 3: of life that happened just along the way. I got

1297
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 3: here early, and I was at a Starbucks and I

1298
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 3: was crossing a crosswalk and an older lady was crossing

1299
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 3: and I just smiled and she smiled, and I just thought,

1300
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 3: I love life right now.

1301
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just love.

1302
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 3: That human encounter of one human and another human. There's

1303
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 3: nothing supernatural about it, but I just had that moment

1304
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 3: that that was a gift, right yeah. And because I

1305
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 3: know that I'm going to die, that my life is

1306
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 3: terminal and I am finite, it helps each each moment

1307
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 3: can get a spotlight, very very quickly.

1308
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love.

1309
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 3: That, but it also doesn't make me want to go

1310
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 3: do more. It hasn't increased my bucket list, right because

1311
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 3: those things I don't find as much meaning around For me,

1312
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 3: it's the sweetness of what I'm doing with my life

1313
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 3: right now.

1314
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 2: The thing that I just keep coming back to as

1315
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 2: I'm reading my existential books or whatever, having my own

1316
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 2: existential crisis is just that like, there's no there's no

1317
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,919
Speaker 2: real way to make it. I mean, for me, there's

1318
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 2: no real way to like make it better or make

1319
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 2: it feel better. And the only thing that I can

1320
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: really do and that it does help me is just

1321
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 2: connection around it, like which is exactly what you do

1322
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 2: hosting death Cafe, which we can talk about, but like

1323
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 2: being able to share this these feelings of like pointlessness

1324
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 2: or fear or you know, or grief or loss, whatever

1325
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 2: it is like, just to not be alone in those feelings,

1326
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 2: I think is so incredibly important and healing and is

1327
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 2: really the only thing we can do for those of

1328
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 2: us who aren't believers and don't have something to attach

1329
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 2: our right after you know.

1330
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, And I think back to your question too, Megan,

1331
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 3: That's where I find my grief has companions. I feel

1332
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 3: most alive and most connected with other people that are

1333
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 3: grieving because we're stripped away of all the other stuff.

1334
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 3: Think matters right, And I'm like, Wow, these people get

1335
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 3: what really matters right now, what they would do for

1336
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 3: I was with a widow yesterday preparing her husband's service

1337
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 3: and said, oh my god, he was such a chatterbox

1338
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 3: and he told the same stories over and over again,

1339
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 3: and she stopped. She said, but what I would do

1340
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 3: to hear one more story? Right? I was like, Oh,

1341
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 3: I just feel I feel connected to her. Yeah.

1342
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1343
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 3: And it's because I'm with those people one two, three

1344
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 3: times a week in these appointments, either as a tospics

1345
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 3: chaplain or preparing for a funeral, that I'm finding so

1346
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 3: much companionship around keeping the main thing the main thing, right. Yeah.

1347
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 2: So for someone who had faith and lost it and

1348
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 2: is now like contending with this idea of death as

1349
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 2: just the end possibly, you know, obviously we can never

1350
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 2: know for sure, but like, what would you say to

1351
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 2: someone like that in that position?

1352
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I would ask a bunch of questions, right,

1353
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 3: I would want to listen to them about what been

1354
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 3: meaningful in their life. So far? What are where are

1355
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 3: they finding meaning? Now? How do they do with this

1356
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 3: idea of an ending? How does that sit with them?

1357
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 3: You know, I would just try to learn. I would

1358
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 3: just hold space for them to be okay or not

1359
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 3: okay with where they are and say, this is the

1360
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 3: gift right here, us just being together in it, and

1361
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 3: maybe this is as good as it.

1362
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 2: Gets, right, and that's okay.

1363
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 3: This human connection right, Because if we can sit in

1364
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 3: the I don't knows and the doubts and the and

1365
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 3: just be honest about that, I think we're off to a

1366
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 3: good start because we could always build on right. It's like, well,

1367
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 3: in light of all of that, then how would you

1368
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 3: like to live right?

1369
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 1: Right?

1370
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 2: Radical acceptance totally in light of all this?

1371
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 3: But we can't answer, you know, it just invites us

1372
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 3: to dig a little deeper, to say, what is a

1373
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 3: core value? Again? What is your true north? What is

1374
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 3: that compass that guides you to find meaning?

1375
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 2: Right?

1376
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 3: And we don't have to be the judge of anyone

1377
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 3: else's meaning, and ought not be the judge of our own.

1378
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 3: We can hold, we can throw against the wall and

1379
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 3: see if it sticks, and if it doesn't, we don't

1380
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 3: like the result, We can always.

1381
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 4: Change, right, right, yeah, thank God.

1382
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 6: Yes, right, or God's or or void, thank you void?

1383
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1384
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. It seems like so much of our culture is

1385
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 2: about this need for certainty and hunting for clear answers,

1386
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 2: and that journey away from faith is, you know, kind

1387
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 2: of about learning to live with uncertainty and accept uncertainty

1388
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 2: and be uncomfortable and that be okay, which is really hard.

1389
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 3: Right. If I gave them an answer, it would be

1390
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 3: a it would be again the illusion that they're going

1391
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 3: to be okay. I've given them an answer, right, The

1392
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 3: best thing I can do is join them in the

1393
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 3: mystery of the undoneeness, the unfinished, the unanswerable, and let

1394
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 3: them see that we're okay, right right right?

1395
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 2: But your does do like you have the answers or midwife?

1396
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah right, And and that's it. And the

1397
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 3: joy really is in showing up for the other person. Yeah, yeah,

1398
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 3: it's just showing up for them. And then I just

1399
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 3: become the permission giver. I don't even tell them what

1400
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 3: they should do. I make suggestions, and I asked them

1401
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 3: what they feel like the next right step is, yeah,

1402
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 3: And that way I'm not giving I'm not giving prescription

1403
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 3: for here's what you must do. Here's some things you

1404
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 3: could do what feels right to you. Right, It's very

1405
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 3: much a.

1406
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 2: Responsible approach to being in that position.

1407
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just kind of that. You're just kind of

1408
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,959
Speaker 3: guarding some guardrails, right, kind of get our hands around

1409
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 3: the guardrails of you know, when a body dies, we

1410
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 3: do want to put on dry ice because if not,

1411
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 3: in twenty four hours, there will start to be just

1412
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 3: some odor and some decay, and the dry ice helps

1413
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 3: freeze the insides. Right, So there's some things like that.

1414
01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 3: But if they want to put on his favorite Kobe jersey,

1415
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 3: or you want they want to put him in a suit,

1416
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 3: or they want to shroud him.

1417
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 4: Or they you know, again, my puppet show. I love it.

1418
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 2: You want a puppet show because I am an actual ventriloquist.

1419
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 4: I know.

1420
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: You can do the podcast with me, and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

1421
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 3: I want to be here for that if I'm still alive.

1422
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 2: But please don't die anytime soon, so we don't have

1423
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 2: to do that.

1424
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 4: I'm there, I'm here.

1425
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: I think it just gives you a whole new appreciation

1426
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 1: of life when you know that it's going to end

1427
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: and you can stop taking yourself so seriously and start

1428
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 1: taking yourself seriously in some beautiful paradox.

1429
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I'm someone who definitely struggles with, like I

1430
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 2: vacillate between life is short, every moment is precious and

1431
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 2: life is short, so nothing means anything and this is

1432
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 2: all going to end. So what is the point of it?

1433
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 4: Beautiful time tightrope? You know it is?

1434
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, I don't know if it feels

1435
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 2: so beautiful, but like, yeah, I can in moments, yes,

1436
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 2: And the more that I like take the time to,

1437
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 2: you know, expose myself to that idea and talk about

1438
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 2: it and be present with it, the easier it feels,

1439
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,839
Speaker 2: I guess not easier, but just like a little easier.

1440
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Do you still set goals? Do you guys set

1441
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,720
Speaker 3: goals for your life? Is that a thing for for sure?

1442
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:26,879
Speaker 3: Goals and dreams?

1443
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 4: And of course yeah.

1444
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 3: So sometimes I'm like, regardless of how I feel, whether

1445
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 3: it matters or doesn't matter, I still got my list

1446
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 3: that in a moment of clarity where I set my

1447
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 3: thirty day goals and I'm going to go through them,

1448
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 3: I'm going to still do go after those regardless of

1449
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 3: whether or not I think it's going to be meaningful

1450
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 3: or not right right to do, you might as well

1451
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 3: just get after this.

1452
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 4: You know that's a really good point.

1453
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

1454
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. The death doola lady Reverend Olivia.

1455
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 3: She touted the words I don't mind, not I don't care,

1456
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 3: but I don't mind. She was healthy, has worked on

1457
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 3: our health directive and our death directive. Like at the

1458
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:04,680
Speaker 3: end of the days, we don't want to be on

1459
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 3: a breathing tube. We don't want to be or f

1460
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,680
Speaker 3: feeding tube, we don't want to be a breathing machine. Right,

1461
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:13,599
Speaker 3: all these things, right, if if we'd rather not have

1462
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 3: what you call it intervention that way, But what if

1463
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 3: we were an accident all of a sudden we woke

1464
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 3: up and the breathing tube downing, and you're being fed

1465
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 3: and the plan that you had all prepared for with

1466
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,719
Speaker 3: your death doula partner and how you want to die.

1467
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 3: It's like not going according to plan and yet you

1468
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 3: planned and and she said nothing, I don't care, but

1469
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:34,679
Speaker 3: can we learn to live with it? I don't mind

1470
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 3: mindset right, like a kind of radical acceptance. Again, it's like,

1471
01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:42,000
Speaker 3: oh my God, like even all this planning, I'm gonna

1472
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 3: die well, I'm gonna have this very conscious death and

1473
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 3: and then you know you're super sick, and you go,

1474
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 3: I don't want to do meds because I want to

1475
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 3: be conscious. You're like, give me the fucking morphine. I

1476
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:51,840
Speaker 3: do what the morphine is?

1477
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:53,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the epid of death.

1478
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's like how do we live? And I

1479
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 3: don't mind if even if things change or things don't

1480
01:09:58,360 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 3: go as planned.

1481
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you're dying, it's fine.

1482
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my favorite part of the power of now.

1483
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:06,360
Speaker 1: She was like somebody was dying and she was like

1484
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:08,640
Speaker 1: upset that somebody stole her ring, and he was like,

1485
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 1: do you you're dying?

1486
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:15,559
Speaker 4: Rings don't exist anymore. It's so cool.

1487
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1488
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean and I love that too. And I

1489
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,600
Speaker 2: think that's an important point too, because I think culturally

1490
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:24,080
Speaker 2: we should get to a place where we're planning more

1491
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 2: and preparing more and like accepting it. But also we can't.

1492
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 2: We're not gonna be able to control how it happened, right, Like, yeah,

1493
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 2: we have to give up some of that.

1494
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 4: It'll never let us get it. Yeah, get it on

1495
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:38,760
Speaker 4: to plan. Yeah.

1496
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:41,760
Speaker 2: So two final questions for you. So one, if you

1497
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 2: could be the King of the culture in America, let's

1498
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 2: just say, and you were like, Okay, I would like

1499
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 2: to make this change and this change around death. What

1500
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 2: would what would those changes be?

1501
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 3: Every school in America, rather than just have health ad

1502
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,960
Speaker 3: and sex ed has death ed in our school system,

1503
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 3: began to create a curriculum around death and dying like

1504
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 3: we do birth, birth control, health wellness. Yeah, living with

1505
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 3: this idea of death in view.

1506
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 4: I love that.

1507
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very cool. I want it right.

1508
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 3: I'm also more actual, so that would be one. And

1509
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 3: then I think some sort of I don't know, almost

1510
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 3: like national attention to death options, because so many people

1511
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 3: don't know either when they're dying or when they're a

1512
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 3: loved one has died. They just feel the mercy of

1513
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,680
Speaker 3: They feel so ignorant that all of a sudden, oh

1514
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 3: my god, I just know I've got to go to

1515
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 3: the mortuary and my loved ones in the back room,

1516
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 3: and you know, we're distraught, and you feel like, oh

1517
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 3: my god, now am I going to be sold a

1518
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 3: bag of goods about the expensive you know, casket and

1519
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 3: all the bells and whistles, and and almost tricked into

1520
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 3: or guilt into giving your loved one celebrate a very

1521
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 3: expensive celebration show how much Oh God cared. And there's

1522
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 3: often people feel like that that whole culture of the cemetery,

1523
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:15,759
Speaker 3: the I guess funeral world. It's become so professional. Oh no,

1524
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 3: there's only like two, there's two or three, I think

1525
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 3: two organizations that are buying up all of the cemeteries. Yeah,

1526
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 3: they're monsters. No, so what about the green burri holes?

1527
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 4: Is that where you become a tree? No?

1528
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 3: The green berrial is just that you go into the

1529
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 3: ground with no caskets, not you can't be embalmed. I see,

1530
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 3: and you're either like a burial cloth. It's biodegradable. I

1531
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 3: think there's only one in California. It's Joshua Tree and

1532
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,720
Speaker 3: instead of putting a marker, they give you a GPS

1533
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:51,760
Speaker 3: of where the body was buried. And it's just that

1534
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 3: I love that.

1535
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: I think that's awesome, the ones that you're buried and

1536
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:58,760
Speaker 1: then you're like a little thing underground, and.

1537
01:12:58,720 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 2: I think, so that's like this.

1538
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 3: I did to There's so many options, not in California yet,

1539
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 3: but I think it is coming. There's in this whole

1540
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,200
Speaker 3: bed of mushrooms also, wow, just kind of absorb your

1541
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 3: body and each all up, you know.

1542
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 2: Like, is the is the reason for all the stuff

1543
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,120
Speaker 2: we do around bodies? Is that does that come from

1544
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 2: some kind of like Christian idea that will be resurrected

1545
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:21,200
Speaker 2: someday or something I know?

1546
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:25,560
Speaker 3: Around the embalming, Yeah, apparently started in silver and the

1547
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 3: Civil War when men were dying out at war and

1548
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 3: they had to get them homes instilled in one piece

1549
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:33,680
Speaker 3: in their bodies without decaying because it was going to

1550
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 3: take a train ride. So they started to embalm them

1551
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 3: for that reason, just for travel, for buy something interesting

1552
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 3: so they could get the loved one home for burial

1553
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 3: and still be recognizable. I guess they think that was better,

1554
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 3: probably easier than a frozen frozen cars, you know, putting

1555
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 3: the bodies on ice, right and so. But then somewhere

1556
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 3: in the formation of the professional funeral home they said

1557
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:56,760
Speaker 3: we can make your loved one preserved.

1558
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:00,679
Speaker 2: It just became a marketing right, I will say.

1559
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:05,439
Speaker 1: In my in my religion growing up, people didn't get well,

1560
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 1: didn't get cremated.

1561
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 4: They wanted to take.

1562
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 3: The Catholic still or some of the last to fight

1563
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 3: that they've been trying to not let you be buried

1564
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:18,719
Speaker 3: and have a mass. If it's cremation. But now they've

1565
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 3: changed their mind. Yeah, I feel like more people being Yeah.

1566
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:26,520
Speaker 4: I mean because it's so expensive now to just kidding.

1567
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 2: Resurrected from ash.

1568
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't want to scatter their ashes in separate

1569
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 3: places because how could God pull them?

1570
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 2: Right?

1571
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 4: Right?

1572
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,320
Speaker 1: It's God, he can do it, Okay.

1573
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely grew up thinking you weren't supposed to

1574
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 2: be cremated because Jesus, like God would put the resurrect you.

1575
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:47,640
Speaker 4: What if you died in a plane crash and then

1576
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 4: I'd get stuck.

1577
01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:50,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're more.

1578
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 1: Than gotta love just the thinking that you did as

1579
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:57,799
Speaker 1: a kid when you're told these stories.

1580
01:14:58,080 --> 01:14:59,679
Speaker 4: Really beautiful anyway.

1581
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a lot more expensive for the funeral with

1582
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 3: the body and the casket and the more choices like that,

1583
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 3: because you know they can upsell so many of those

1584
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 3: different things, of course, but more and more sixty percent

1585
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 3: now I think, or the numbers. I think it's forty,

1586
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 3: but it's going up that are cremating and I didn't

1587
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:20,160
Speaker 3: know this, And I'm going to do this now, full

1588
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:22,560
Speaker 3: body burial at sea where they shroud your body and

1589
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:24,479
Speaker 3: they take you out two miles out of long beach

1590
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:25,800
Speaker 3: and then drop you.

1591
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 4: I don't know, it seems a little white lotos. You're

1592
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:32,080
Speaker 4: going to pop up with somebody's you.

1593
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 3: Know, they anchor. I mean they put the bottom. You

1594
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,920
Speaker 3: sink to the bottom, right, and the salt water dissolves.

1595
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:42,600
Speaker 2: You child stumbles on your body.

1596
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a hard decision.

1597
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I I guess thinking about it, like there

1598
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:52,799
Speaker 2: were throughout history, there have been different ways of preserving

1599
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 2: bodies for all kinds of religious beliefs or maybe even

1600
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 2: non religious beliefs, So it's not necessarily like a bad thing.

1601
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 2: But I do love the idea of like being you know,

1602
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 2: being reunited with nature or going back to where I

1603
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:06,480
Speaker 2: came from. I think that's a really nice idea.

1604
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 1: And I'm fully in for the ventureloquist stuff.

1605
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 3: But what do we do with the body once we're done?

1606
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 4: Never stop trying to resuscitate me.

1607
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 2: Okay, keep There was a period of my life where

1608
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, maybe I would want to be like taxidermid.

1609
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, stuffed.

1610
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 2: I don't want to be in a museum somewhere, the

1611
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 2: creepy lola who wants.

1612
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,640
Speaker 3: Wonder if so much Taxidermy?

1613
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 4: I did wonder if that was Yeah, they they do.

1614
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 2: I mean they have like the bodies exhibit, but they

1615
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 2: don't look like they looked obviously. It's they're like, I mean,

1616
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:49,479
Speaker 2: I'm muscles.

1617
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fully planning to get a few people's stuffed.

1618
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:53,720
Speaker 4: So ill you know how it goes.

1619
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to see him afterwards and then so

1620
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:00,679
Speaker 2: can you just tell us quickly what death is also

1621
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:02,160
Speaker 2: and then some of the other work that you do

1622
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:03,040
Speaker 2: if you want to talk about it.

1623
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. Death cafes started in I guess the UK ten

1624
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 3: twelve years ago maybe, and it was a movement sociology

1625
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 3: just wanted to study thoughts around death and the culture.

1626
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 3: So they brought some people together talk about death. I

1627
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 3: don't know if once a week or once a month,

1628
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:20,400
Speaker 3: and they met, they drank coffee or tea, they had cake,

1629
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 3: and they could talk about death. No agenda, no no

1630
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:27,800
Speaker 3: no teaching, no lecture, just a free flow. And when

1631
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:29,800
Speaker 3: the study was done, the people wanted to still meet.

1632
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 3: They said it was really life giving for them to

1633
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 3: a place where they could do it. Out of that

1634
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 3: was birth the death cafe movement. There's like six thousand

1635
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 3: death cafes that happened around the world free and they

1636
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:45,400
Speaker 3: still always serve cake and coffee and no agenda, no facilitator.

1637
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:47,720
Speaker 3: So me and this other late gal I met through

1638
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:50,200
Speaker 3: death Caf through the Death Doula training. She lives in

1639
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 3: coast to me. So we started one before covid and

1640
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:54,880
Speaker 3: did it for a year and we had sometimes and

1641
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:57,760
Speaker 3: we just promoted it online and through Facebook and social

1642
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 3: media and Deathcafe dot com as a website, and people

1643
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:02,800
Speaker 3: that look for it can the ship code and go

1644
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:05,639
Speaker 3: there's one in Costa Mesa right and get information and come.

1645
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 3: It's just once a month. Ours was I think one

1646
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 3: first Wednesday of the month or something. We had as

1647
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 3: few as four people and as many as twenty, and

1648
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:15,040
Speaker 3: people as young as eighteen nineteen years old as old

1649
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:18,360
Speaker 3: as eighty six. Wow, And most came out of curiosity

1650
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 3: because they have these thoughts but they don't know who

1651
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:23,320
Speaker 3: else to have them with, because if they try to

1652
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:25,360
Speaker 3: bring it up with their family, they often get shut down.

1653
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 3: And they just wanted a safe place to do it.

1654
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 3: So we did that for about a year. COVID came,

1655
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:34,200
Speaker 3: it went online, we started back up, but again that

1656
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:37,679
Speaker 3: that turnout, it's not been really good. So I'm debating

1657
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 3: on switching over to more of a podcast model interesting

1658
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 3: around death, you know, and maybe make it a live

1659
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:46,320
Speaker 3: interview with me and this other lady talk about it

1660
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 3: and then let people chime in with questions.

1661
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 2: And I really think you should. I think that's such

1662
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 2: a good idea death.

1663
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 3: Almost a death and then just recorded on Facebook live

1664
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 3: or Instagram live.

1665
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:57,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was so that first time that I went,

1666
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:00,799
Speaker 2: I was having a lot of do I have OCD?

1667
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:04,640
Speaker 2: And I was having a lot of just like anxiety

1668
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:08,000
Speaker 2: inducing obsessions about death. And just hearing everyone talk about

1669
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:10,600
Speaker 2: it together and have it not be this thing that

1670
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:13,080
Speaker 2: it felt like I needed to avoid was just very healing.

1671
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 2: And everyone had such a different relationship with it and

1672
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:17,439
Speaker 2: such different thoughts about it. And I just think it's

1673
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:20,680
Speaker 2: such a great format, and I hope you keep doing it,

1674
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 2: and I hope you do it in LA too, because

1675
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 2: Orange County is far I would.

1676
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 3: Gladly do it. I also heard somebody I met with

1677
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:29,679
Speaker 3: another funeral celebrate yesterday and she said, there's a friend

1678
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:32,960
Speaker 3: thinks in LA called death over Drafts and it's like

1679
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 3: draft beer and death fun It's like, oh interesting, So

1680
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:40,080
Speaker 3: I'll gather the what what she's learning and who she

1681
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:41,879
Speaker 3: knows it and we'll just compile resources.

1682
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:46,679
Speaker 2: That's awesome. And then is there anywhere people can find

1683
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 2: you or your organizations online?

1684
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:50,439
Speaker 3: If they just go to my name dot org not

1685
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:54,760
Speaker 3: my name, but Keith pagepage dot org. That's the best

1686
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 3: way to probably find find me.

1687
01:19:57,000 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 2: What happens when you go to my name dot org?

1688
01:19:59,080 --> 01:19:59,759
Speaker 2: Now I'm curious.

1689
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 3: I'm right, it's available now.

1690
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, they want you to probably make them a lot

1691
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:08,520
Speaker 2: of mind for it.

1692
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 3: Yes, and I have thought about, even because I've done

1693
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 3: so many celebrations for life, it would be cool to

1694
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 3: go into a studio or just record them myself, each

1695
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:22,640
Speaker 3: person's story even after Oh yeah, so that people it

1696
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 3: just lives on.

1697
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 4: That's awesome.

1698
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:26,080
Speaker 3: It would be great to have so all these stories

1699
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:28,720
Speaker 3: that people could either watch or at least listen to

1700
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:30,800
Speaker 3: of their loved ones, right, Like, how do we help

1701
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 3: keep their life stories?

1702
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 2: And I love them?

1703
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:35,559
Speaker 4: That's great?

1704
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:37,599
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us, Keith.

1705
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:38,879
Speaker 3: Hey, you guys are amazing.

1706
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 4: Thank you you are.

1707
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 3: I can't wait to find out what else you're you

1708
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 3: got cooking up so I can listen and watch and support.

1709
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:48,600
Speaker 2: So thank you.

1710
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1711
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 3: Continued.

1712
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 2: Okay, Megan, have you thought about your funeral and what

1713
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 2: you want that to look.

1714
01:20:57,120 --> 01:21:00,760
Speaker 1: Like you know, I used to say that I definitely

1715
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 1: didn't want anyone to have a good time. I don't

1716
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 1: want you to celebrate and like go have pizza afterwards,

1717
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:08,599
Speaker 1: and like this isn't a party.

1718
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 4: You should all be very sad for a year.

1719
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:15,640
Speaker 1: But the more I grow, the more I think, why not,

1720
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, have some really cool video of all the

1721
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:24,960
Speaker 1: terrible pictures my boyfriend's taken of me, and everybody can

1722
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:26,560
Speaker 1: just remember the good things.

1723
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 4: And I actually saw.

1724
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:32,040
Speaker 1: This article the other day about a man who just

1725
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:35,599
Speaker 1: got arrested because he faked his own death in Brazil

1726
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 1: to see who would come to his funeral.

1727
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:42,599
Speaker 2: No genius.

1728
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm actually trying to buy the rights to it because

1729
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:47,240
Speaker 1: it's the perfect story, Oh my com.

1730
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 4: For a movie. What about you? What do you want

1731
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:50,720
Speaker 4: your funeral to be?

1732
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:55,960
Speaker 2: Like extravagant, you know, like I want to go out

1733
01:21:55,960 --> 01:22:00,160
Speaker 2: in style. My apartment is very like yeah, maximalist, Like

1734
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 2: I want my funeral to be maximalist. And I do

1735
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 2: want it to be a party. I want there to

1736
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 2: be fucking delicious food and like I don't know, like

1737
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:14,280
Speaker 2: the most emotional music and then the sickest dance party

1738
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:16,559
Speaker 2: and like lots of amazing colors.

1739
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 4: Hear me out.

1740
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:21,280
Speaker 1: You're a pop star, right, I mean, I guess we

1741
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 1: swing your body down like Lady Gaga coming.

1742
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 4: Into a concert.

1743
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 2: Like and descending in the air a super.

1744
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:35,320
Speaker 1: Bowl, the coolest outfit, and then it just goes into

1745
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: your casket.

1746
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:38,920
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Yes, Megan. I mean, I don't know

1747
01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:41,920
Speaker 2: who's going to pay for it, but let's absolutely do it.

1748
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:43,400
Speaker 4: We could start a GoFundMe.

1749
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:47,800
Speaker 2: You know, as long as I as long as my

1750
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:51,840
Speaker 2: coffin is beautiful, I don't really care, Like I don't know,

1751
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 2: like hot pink. No, not hot pink, I'm past my

1752
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:57,960
Speaker 2: pink phase, but like really pretty. You know. Although do

1753
01:22:58,040 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 2: I really want to be buried in a coffin or

1754
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 2: do I want to be just in the ground like

1755
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:02,280
Speaker 2: what we were talking about earlier.

1756
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:05,480
Speaker 4: I don't know, and I think I want to be cremated.

1757
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:07,320
Speaker 2: In any case, I wish there was a way to

1758
01:23:07,360 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 2: like do it like you do weddings, like it's in

1759
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 2: a fucking castle in France, you know what I mean,

1760
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:13,719
Speaker 2: Like yeah.

1761
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:17,400
Speaker 1: Something, I mean, ideally it would be something so spectacular,

1762
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:19,680
Speaker 1: but for most of us who can't do that, I

1763
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:24,680
Speaker 1: guess you just bring the best of them and celebrate it.

1764
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:25,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1765
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you tell you tell the best stories.

1766
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:30,799
Speaker 2: Although even that, honestly, like, I'm resistant to the idea

1767
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:34,599
Speaker 2: that people will like pretend that they that they thought

1768
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:36,240
Speaker 2: I was perfect when I was alive. Like, I really

1769
01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:38,400
Speaker 2: want people to talk about what was fucked up about

1770
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:41,040
Speaker 2: me when I am dead, so that they so that

1771
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 2: I know that they loved me for real, like despite

1772
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 2: my flaws, instead of pretending I didn't have to. Okay, great,

1773
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:48,240
Speaker 2: I had a weird thing to say. I will take

1774
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 2: over now all the things you hate about me. Okay cool?

1775
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:59,920
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Anyway, hopefully though, none of us dive

1776
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:00,840
Speaker 2: for a very long time.

1777
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:02,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, and have some peace when you do.

1778
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can haunt all the immortal children of

1779
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:08,400
Speaker 2: the next generation who never have to die because of technology.

1780
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:12,320
Speaker 4: Oh, it makes me really sad. I'm so jealous. Actually

1781
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 4: I'm not. I'm good.

1782
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:13,719
Speaker 2: I'm good.

1783
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:14,280
Speaker 4: I'm good.

1784
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 2: I'm good.

1785
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:15,920
Speaker 4: I'm good.

1786
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:19,719
Speaker 2: So I guess we're good. And on that note, oh, yeah,

1787
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:20,320
Speaker 2: my part.

1788
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:23,799
Speaker 4: You guys, we're so glad that you spend another week of.

1789
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 1: This precious time of life with us. We can't wait

1790
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:30,240
Speaker 1: to see you again next week and as always, remember

1791
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 1: to follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

1792
01:24:32,439 --> 01:24:41,519
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me. Bye bye. Trust Me is

1793
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 2: produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1794
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:46,639
Speaker 4: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1795
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1796
01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:52,080
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1797
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:55,639
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1798
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1799
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:00,840
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Loola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1800
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:04,160
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham

1801
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:05,400
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1802
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:07,840
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.