Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 1: These are our stories, done done.
Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: I am Lisa.
Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, and I am Kara, And it is so
Speaker 1: great to be here on our podcast. So where we
Speaker 1: talk about an episode of SVU the true crimeate's based
Speaker 1: on and we interview an amazing guest and I'm I'm
Speaker 1: pumped you. I have to tell you. Lisa Rosie is
Speaker 1: in these swim lessons right now that are intensive swim lessons,
Speaker 1: Like every day she goes for thirty minutes for eight
Speaker 1: days and the man that is teaching them is a
Speaker 1: full i'ld whisper Svengali. In four days, she is jumping
Speaker 1: into the pool and swimming to this man breathing under
Speaker 1: like holding her breath underwater. It is beyond Like I'm
Speaker 1: so proud of her, Like I'm just like I will
Speaker 1: talk to anybody that wants to talk about it. I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, my daughter's in these swim glasses and
Speaker 1: it's just been really cute and we I was so
Speaker 1: happy we found this guy because I guess this is
Speaker 1: a certain technique and a lot of people.
Speaker 2: And our friends is it both the other daughters are
Speaker 2: just one just okay, it's older.
Speaker 1: You know, almost every kid in this in this group,
Speaker 1: there's a few of you. Oh my god, they do
Speaker 1: two groups of three. They only go three at a time,
Speaker 1: and you know all like you know, all the kids
Speaker 1: except for maybe one.
Speaker 3: I did realize it.
Speaker 2: So you all get this pool and then he comes
Speaker 2: to you, guys and revolutionizes your children's life.
Speaker 1: Yes, and the first three go for thirty minutes and
Speaker 1: then they leave, and then the next thirt three go
Speaker 1: and he like, yeah, but apparently this technique that he
Speaker 1: teaches is like a lot of people teach it, but
Speaker 1: for some reason in the swim world in La, a
Speaker 1: bunch of the people that teach it will not get vaccinated.
Speaker 1: And it's like you're going to be up close with
Speaker 1: a child in a pool during a pandemic, like you
Speaker 1: have to get vaccinated. So we found like the one
Speaker 1: guy who gets vaccinated, and so it was so hard
Speaker 1: to book him and worth every fucking penny. He's so
Speaker 1: hard In advanced did you book him, Like, I honestly
Speaker 1: could look at my emails. I think I started in
Speaker 1: January emailing him and we solidified it by February because
Speaker 1: he books up. Wow. Yeah, and it was amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it was a lot of money. It was for
Speaker 1: what you would say, eight days, thirty minutes a day,
Speaker 1: that's four hours total. It's quite a bit of money,
Speaker 1: but honestly worth every penny. He is so good like
Speaker 1: and he's probably doing a bunch of I mean this
Speaker 1: that guy is Oh no, he's zooming around town. He
Speaker 1: drives a tesla. He literally get like Rosie. The first
Speaker 1: couple of days, she cried. Obviously she's nervous, and she
Speaker 1: still did everything, Like while crying, she did everything he
Speaker 1: told her to do, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: it wasn't like a like with me. She'll just cry
Speaker 1: and stop and shut down. This guy has a way
Speaker 1: of like talking to these kids. It's really there should
Speaker 1: be a documentary about him. He's like my octopus teacher
Speaker 1: for fucking kids. Like he's so amazing. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I am getting competitive.
Speaker 2: I I did stop teaching swim lessons I think my
Speaker 2: senior year of high school.
Speaker 1: But I was good it also is impossible to book you.
Speaker 1: That is true, really too hard. I don't have these skills.
Speaker 1: I don't think they would respect me. The kids that
Speaker 1: I know, there's a predetermined relationship where they're like Liza,
Speaker 1: like she Rosie would just be talking about all your tattoos.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it when we're Oh I did book a
Speaker 2: tattoo appointment.
Speaker 1: So you have been near someone. I just got one
Speaker 1: of those COVID things. You've been near someone with COVID,
Speaker 1: go like yourself. How are we still getting those? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all have it.
Speaker 3: Leave us alone. We're onto the next monkey pox.
Speaker 1: Oh no, yeah, by the way, if you can get
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was listening to another podcast with
Speaker 1: Alaska and Wilhelm, and Alaska was like, went to get
Speaker 1: the monkey pox's vaccine and was like, I am a
Speaker 1: gay man, I am a entertainer. I am in the population,
Speaker 1: hugging people traveling to different countries. I qualify. And they
Speaker 1: were like, you need a doctor's note saying that you qualify.
Speaker 1: Like they're making it annoying for people to get monkey
Speaker 1: pox's vaccines.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well because it's like they think it's a gay
Speaker 2: thing or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just sad that we haven't learned anything
Speaker 1: from COVID, Like I thought the next RESI we.
Speaker 2: Learned nothing from anything. We're burning books.
Speaker 1: I just like they're taking Judy Bloom out of the libraries.
Speaker 1: I mean, we are living in fucking a Ray Bradberry
Speaker 1: short story. Like, I don't know what to say but
Speaker 1: the good news. And I know we're in the time
Speaker 1: machine and this is very old news by now, but
Speaker 1: I was really happy to see that Kansas News this
Speaker 1: morning when I woke up the in Kansas they voted
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly to keep abortion protections in their in their constitution,
Speaker 1: their state constitution. And I just think that's seventy five
Speaker 1: percent of this country is pro abortion. Stop it. Everyone
Speaker 1: needs to stop Christian NICs. Yeah, but the problem is
Speaker 1: the twenty five percent that are pro abortion. That's what
Speaker 1: they vote on, Like, they'll vote on that over anything else.
Speaker 1: Jared's grandmother votes on abortion only.
Speaker 3: I mean, in the words of your husband, they're soft headed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know they're true to true, But what
Speaker 1: of that? What else is going on summer fune, I.
Speaker 3: Don't even know. I'm just you know, trying to.
Speaker 1: Get through things going things when this airs, I think
Speaker 1: they'll be in upstate New York or in Manhattan and
Speaker 1: Brooklyn vibes. So I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know what to say. Yeah, I just
Speaker 2: don't know if I can pack again. Like my my
Speaker 2: mental well being is truly hinged unpacking, and it's I can't.
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's someone you could pay to help
Speaker 1: you or like do a task gravity person, like who's
Speaker 1: like an organ?
Speaker 2: Suitcases are so heavy and I'm just lugging it miserable,
Speaker 2: and then the every Uber driver's upset with me, and
Speaker 2: it's like I don't like this either, sir, Like this
Speaker 2: isn't exciting for me, but.
Speaker 3: At least I met.
Speaker 2: When you travel to New York, it's better because you
Speaker 2: drop off laundry everywhere. It may like drop off laundry
Speaker 2: being the standard in New York is like have it's
Speaker 2: just the best.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love drop off laundry. I used to love.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I really love that I have my
Speaker 1: own laundry now and I have to do it myself,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's not my favorite, but I guess
Speaker 1: it is convenient.
Speaker 2: No, the house is fine too, but like having these
Speaker 2: people that are incredible, they fold it. It's in a vat.
Speaker 2: It's like it's heaven. It was heaven, and I like
Speaker 2: picked my apartments to make sure there was one close.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I was like always with a Santa sac going down
Speaker 1: the street every couple of weeks. Yeah. I don't want
Speaker 1: to do that, but yeah, summer fun. I mean, my
Speaker 1: birthday is August thirty first. Oh, this episode comes out
Speaker 1: the day before your birthday. So my birthday is August
Speaker 1: thirty first, so am tomorrow. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I already made reservations like about two months ago
Speaker 2: for a lunch at laburnaden a little three course action,
Speaker 2: not the full tasting menu. But it's been a dream
Speaker 2: to go to La Bernadette. And I'm going with two
Speaker 2: like foody top chef fans. So they know who Eric
Speaker 2: Repair is, so that's nice. That's gonna bet.
Speaker 1: I don't actually know that.
Speaker 2: You know, Repair, he's the king of seafood. He looks
Speaker 2: like King Triton, like white hair, blue eyes, French accent,
Speaker 2: and he he is just the king of seafood really
Speaker 2: and just the standard in the world.
Speaker 1: And that's what Laburnadonne is. Yeah, that's his restaurant. Oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't know it was seafood. I assumed it was
Speaker 1: just like fancy French.
Speaker 2: No, and he sadly was best friends with Bourdain.
Speaker 1: They are best buds.
Speaker 2: Oh so he'll he like cried like they were best buddies.
Speaker 2: But yeah, just like a New York King, French legend
Speaker 2: and a great you know, Top Chef. There's lots of
Speaker 2: cooking shows, but Top Chef does get the highest caliber
Speaker 2: of chefs in the world come on that show and
Speaker 2: so you get to learn. I got to learn about
Speaker 2: all the best chefs through Top Chef.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know I have I have met Padma,
Speaker 1: Tom Calichio, and Gail in different ways throughout my life,
Speaker 1: so I have had some action with each of them,
Speaker 1: which makes me thrilled. Tadma came to my stand up
Speaker 1: show in New York one time that I ran every week,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't there. She was at the cellar and
Speaker 1: she was in all light and I saw her and
Speaker 1: it was an angel, an angel and white Gail. I
Speaker 1: saw Molly at the Lizzo concert. Oh, yes, I was
Speaker 1: with you, but I didn't see Gail.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she just like came at me like an angel.
Speaker 2: And then Tom Colikio, I did an MSNBC News.
Speaker 1: I remember that. I do recall that you got to
Speaker 1: do that with Tom Klicks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was huge, went to Strip House before then
Speaker 2: got carbon monoxide poisoned in the night. I mean, life
Speaker 2: is really an up and down journey.
Speaker 1: I really like, I don't I just gave up on
Speaker 1: Top Chef even though I loved it. I really liked
Speaker 1: that here, like I just don't have time and it's
Speaker 1: the same thing every season. Even though I loved it,
Speaker 1: I loved seeing what they did and I was like,
Speaker 1: this is there's so much talent, you know. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I just.
Speaker 3: Dip in and out.
Speaker 2: But I did watch The Master like The Masters all Winners,
Speaker 2: or like the best of the Best like Battle of
Speaker 2: Champions and then the Hottest Person Ever Melissa One.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and I do love going to one of
Speaker 1: their restaurants if I'm in a place where there's like
Speaker 1: a When I hear about a Top Chef person's restaurant,
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that will be good, you know, as
Speaker 1: opposed to like, I don't know a lot of other
Speaker 1: shows I wouldn't miss. I would never really like hunt
Speaker 1: down the winners to go do something.
Speaker 2: No, because Chops is trying to fuck you, Like all
Speaker 2: the others are trying to fuck you in weird ways.
Speaker 2: But Top I mean, Top Ship's trying to fuck you.
Speaker 2: But it's in. It's just classier. It's just Bravo is classier.
Speaker 2: Like I don't know what to say. Bravo is a
Speaker 2: caliber of reality competition television that not many outside of
Speaker 2: Drag Race have been able to emulate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, can you imagine you to hear? First, drag
Speaker 1: Race moved to Bravo. Can you imagine?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: But I'm you know, I'm listening.
Speaker 2: I listened to Brian Moylan's book and like Bravo, I mean,
Speaker 2: Project Runway moving to Lifetime was like sad and wild.
Speaker 2: It did decrease the brand and like, okay, yeah, Carley
Speaker 2: Kloss's dumb ass.
Speaker 1: So I stopped watching when they moved to Lifetime.
Speaker 2: I was still pretty hooked, but once Carl Closs came
Speaker 2: clamping her way in, I said, no, thank you, no
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 3: I mean it was disgusting to me. Oh god, but yeah.
Speaker 2: Just high class, like the high class people were on
Speaker 2: Project Runway, you know, like real everybody.
Speaker 1: Those are like good reality shows too, because everyone's very
Speaker 1: talented it's not make Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I watch compilations of Michael Corer's giving criticism on
Speaker 2: Project Runway.
Speaker 1: Frankly I was underwhelmed.
Speaker 2: Well also his architectural digests I love because there's like
Speaker 2: vases everywhere and finally goes, I mean, we just love
Speaker 2: a vessel in this house. But he has a fucking
Speaker 2: penthouse in the West Village and I think that's like
Speaker 2: the ultimate dream, Like I can't think of anything more
Speaker 2: somebody who.
Speaker 1: I really think he is so funny and I know
Speaker 1: he's talented, but I do not like his stuff when
Speaker 1: I see it in stores.
Speaker 3: In stores he's like ready to wear.
Speaker 2: Not as much, but his red carpet shit is amazing, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: Okate Hudson always looks amazing in it. His Michael Core's
Speaker 2: red carpet dresses I think are always yea, his.
Speaker 1: Picture stuff is probably really nice and his his his
Speaker 1: his red well Lauren Taylor stuff's not doing it for me.
Speaker 2: But I think his red carpet looks like if you
Speaker 2: just google, I think you would be into them, to
Speaker 2: be honest, because you like a chikh simple vibe.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, so I think you would like him.
Speaker 2: But even sap Posen like like touching the fabric, the
Speaker 2: way they talk about smooth stitching. It's just like I
Speaker 2: just love people that love what they do and watching
Speaker 2: them like care about the contestants. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: that's why RuPaul wins Emmy after Emmy, because he is
Speaker 2: like whatever you hear if he's like about how personal
Speaker 2: he is outside or like while he's working, but like
Speaker 2: you could see, he cares about these queens and he
Speaker 2: cries and he has moved, and he wants them to
Speaker 2: succeed and live good lives and he is on their side.
Speaker 2: And that's what makes it so good when like the
Speaker 2: fucking judge's care.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and he yeh ru has launched the careers
Speaker 1: of a thousand ships, you know, like but.
Speaker 2: He changed every like dry like it became it's mainstream.
Speaker 2: Kids are going to DragCon, Like who would have thought
Speaker 2: that thirty years ago?
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, that's so funny. I just we'd
Speaker 1: have Rosie and Oscars. Kid badges from DragCon are like
Speaker 1: part of the toys they play with. And I was
Speaker 1: just picking them up and like hanging them up earlier.
Speaker 1: I was like thinking to myself, Wow, I bet conservatives
Speaker 1: would hate that I have like two badges to draggon
Speaker 1: hanging in my kids rooms, just the worst.
Speaker 2: It's like, why don't you start with the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2: It's just like they're just bonkers, just hateful, bonkers people.
Speaker 3: How do we always end up.
Speaker 1: We always enraging, like yes, against the Christian right, we
Speaker 1: try it.
Speaker 3: I guess it's oppressive. I mean that's the whole point.
Speaker 1: It's like it's overbearing and nuts and it feels but
Speaker 1: not really, we're not near it. I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: all very strange. Yeah, all right, I'm sorry. I just
Speaker 1: went on a weird speech about reality TV show judges,
Speaker 1: and I might I'm ashamed, But I don't think you
Speaker 1: should feel passionate. And I think you are that person
Speaker 1: and who is passionate about things, and television is one
Speaker 1: of the things you are passionate about. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: all right, let's get started speaking of passion for television.
Speaker 3: Hungary, let's get this going.
Speaker 1: Today's episode. I'm excited. This is a fucking banger of
Speaker 1: an up, so let's get into it.
Speaker 3: Bang or no.
Speaker 2: Cara text to me being like, oh my god, I
Speaker 2: forget this episode's fucking incredible. So oh Before we start,
Speaker 2: we have to mention if you have not seen our
Speaker 2: posts on Instagram and social media, we are going on tour,
Speaker 2: so check out all of the cities that we're going
Speaker 2: to buy some tickets. Let's sell out, we'll meet all
Speaker 2: of you, We'll get drunk. I can't wait. We'll be
Speaker 2: in the Midwest, the East Coast, southeast, South Texas, everywhere
Speaker 2: that you live, we will be there. Except the Dakotas.
Speaker 2: No one wants to go there, so you got to
Speaker 2: start traveling. But we can't wait to be everywhere. And
Speaker 2: I can't wait to meet you guys. So check out
Speaker 2: all of our tour info, visit our website, and we'll
Speaker 2: be promoting the shit out of it. So get ready
Speaker 2: to hear about this tour for the next six months.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get into today's episode Criminal, Season five,
Speaker 1: episode twenty one. Oh this aired on four to twenty.
Speaker 1: Lisa in two thousand way, hell yeah, it's a four
Speaker 1: twenty episode, baby, And.
Speaker 2: Should I spark a bowl, I would do it two
Speaker 2: thousand and four. Yeah, Well, I wouldn't smoke a joint
Speaker 2: because I respect you, but.
Speaker 1: Maybe a baby boy. I wouldn't care. So up in
Speaker 1: season five, is a banger of a season like we've done.
Speaker 1: When I was going through the Hulu, I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: we've done that one, that one that we've done a
Speaker 1: lot of Season five episodes. I think they were really
Speaker 1: hitting their stride and it was a hot season. So
Speaker 1: we open on a cold New York day and a
Speaker 1: marigold salesman. There's like a man pulling a pushcart with
Speaker 1: of marigolds, like we're in the old world. I've never
Speaker 1: literally never seen someone selling flowers out of the back
Speaker 1: of a pushcart like that in Central Park. But this
Speaker 1: man's like he's arguing with a cop who's on horseback
Speaker 1: and he's like, come on, like, you gotta get this
Speaker 1: crime scene out of my way. It's rude in my business.
Speaker 1: Or they made him move because of a crime scene.
Speaker 1: You can't really tell what's going on here, but this
Speaker 1: flower man is mad. And then the cop radio's in
Speaker 1: and is like, hey, uh who which cop is working
Speaker 1: the crime scene in the Rambles And that's a part
Speaker 1: of Central Park, a famous part of Central Park called
Speaker 1: the Ramble, And they're woman on the radio is like,
Speaker 1: no crime scene there, and the cop who has dismounted
Speaker 1: at this point is like confused. He goes under the
Speaker 1: tape and he's like, no, it's still taped off. It's
Speaker 1: got to be something, and she's like, nothing is reported there,
Speaker 1: and then just at that moment, he brushes back some
Speaker 1: leaves and uncovers the bare legs of a dead body. Done. Done.
Speaker 1: So now we are with CSU Captain Judith Ciper, who
Speaker 1: is filling in Stabler, saying the killer went out of
Speaker 1: his way to screw us on this one because the
Speaker 1: body's been out there for a few days. The crime
Speaker 1: scene is quite literally cold, and Stabler says, well, points
Speaker 1: for creativity. I've never seen a perp cordon off their
Speaker 1: own crime scene. And Cyper's like, you can kind of
Speaker 1: get police tape anywhere, so it's throwing up that hard
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, I actually have some right here.
Speaker 1: I can like see police tape where I am right
Speaker 1: now from when we did a photo shoot. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like if you're a true sociopath, that's like a prank
Speaker 2: you can pull on someone, Yeah, and in crime tape
Speaker 2: around their house exactly.
Speaker 1: And in this show we've done, we've had people buy
Speaker 1: full cop uniforms like impersonate myriad professions, so easy to
Speaker 1: get police tape, you can get uniforms and shit too,
Speaker 1: So the woman has no idea she died a strangulation.
Speaker 1: Melinda said she was probably sexually assaulted as well, but
Speaker 1: she's been out here for a long time, so we
Speaker 1: won't really know until the autopsy. And they point out
Speaker 1: that her fingernails were clipped post mortem, and Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: how do you guys know that? And then Benson, who
Speaker 1: is now here and she's with the body. She's like
Speaker 1: a real curly girl. Yeah, her and Melinda just use
Speaker 1: their girl power knowledge together and they're like, lady, shit,
Speaker 1: she has a fresh many petty. No one cuts their
Speaker 1: nails down after a fresh manny, like, get with it.
Speaker 1: So they know what has happened. This person knows forensics,
Speaker 1: they put up this crime scene tape. They're like, maybe
Speaker 1: we're looking for a cop. And that's how this cold
Speaker 1: open ends. And I really love that this show. Benson
Speaker 1: is Stabler will a lot of times be like maybe
Speaker 1: it's a cop, you know, like and so many other
Speaker 1: like whenever it is a cop that did it, you
Speaker 1: don't find out for forever because no one will ever
Speaker 1: even think of that, you know, like and in other
Speaker 1: shows that's always a huge twist, like it was one
Speaker 1: of us, because no one ever suspects that it's cops.
Speaker 1: But Benson and Stable are like, oh, we're very well
Speaker 1: aware that cops are trash sometimes, so they're always like,
Speaker 1: could be one of us. So now we're at the
Speaker 1: morgue and Melinda and Benson are gazing at the dead
Speaker 1: body through a window, and Melinda is convinced that this
Speaker 1: is like an inside job. This guy just did everything right.
Speaker 1: There's no fluids, there's no hair, there's no prints. And
Speaker 1: then he must have choked her while holding something over
Speaker 1: her mouth, because Melinda did find one thing which was
Speaker 1: a fiber in the victim's mouth or throat, and it
Speaker 1: is oil skin cotton, and she must have aspirated the
Speaker 1: fiber during the attack, like it's from whatever he held
Speaker 1: over her mouth, and she says it could be from
Speaker 1: a raincoat gloves, and the bruce pattern means the person
Speaker 1: that strangled her did it with their left hand, so
Speaker 1: it's a left handed person. And then after he killed
Speaker 1: this woman, he and we say he, it's nine times
Speaker 1: out of ten it's a man. After this person killed her,
Speaker 1: he rubbed her down with rubbing alcohol and gave her
Speaker 1: a douche and I was like, yikes, yikes, I just
Speaker 1: I don't like the word. I don't like to think
Speaker 1: about it happening with rubbing alcohol just all over. Not
Speaker 1: fun for me. I calling people douche lords though oh
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah as an infault. I like it fine
Speaker 1: as a process to clean out your vagina. I don't
Speaker 1: like the idea of it, especially because I think douching
Speaker 1: is like completely unnecessary and like created.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then like porn stars do do that, sure,
Speaker 2: it depends like what your trade is, like yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't think it's encouraged.
Speaker 1: I feel like just like vagicill like created, like you've
Speaker 1: got to be doing this, ladies. If you're not, you're
Speaker 1: not fresh down there. And it's everything is marketing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like Razor, like women didn't shave before. Advertising execs said,
Speaker 1: you guys are gross come out with that. And that's
Speaker 1: why it's.
Speaker 2: So silly that people who think they're like they're just
Speaker 2: such marks for companies and government.
Speaker 1: It's so weird, you know, like you're so you hold
Speaker 1: like these people hold these.
Speaker 2: Beliefs so strong, but it's not they're not even real,
Speaker 2: Like you're just simping for advertising execs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like your whole frame of mind is built on people
Speaker 2: tricking you to make money, and you think that you're
Speaker 2: like this clever person. Right yeah, it's against like women
Speaker 2: having hairy arms. But really you just love advertising, well
Speaker 2: you love money? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Do that make sense? Should?
Speaker 3: I didn't even smoke a bowl. If you guys are.
Speaker 1: Wondering, people, wow, something switch, keep it in, keep it in.
Speaker 3: So uh.
Speaker 1: Melinda says that also she found a small piece of
Speaker 1: latex and you can tell, like from a condom, and
Speaker 1: you can tell that it's like that the condom broke
Speaker 1: from the tear pattern on this small piece and the brand.
Speaker 1: She was able to match it to the brand, which
Speaker 1: is called Twisted Desire. Now, I know in a former
Speaker 1: episode rough Rider condoms ended up being real. We thought
Speaker 1: they were fake and they were real, So of course
Speaker 1: I googled Twisted Desire to see if they were real.
Speaker 1: They're not real, but Trojan does have something called Twisted Pleasure,
Speaker 1: so check it out. What is now emit heat?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: No, I think it's like the the contouring of the
Speaker 1: condom is like, you know, ribbed in like a twist
Speaker 1: because ooh, that's gonna feel better. It's like it's probably
Speaker 1: not anyway. They also get a match on the victim
Speaker 1: Prince and they finally identify this poor dead woman as
Speaker 1: Rebeccah Wheeler. She lives at Claremont one hundred and seventh
Speaker 1: and her time of death was sometime last week and
Speaker 1: she ate right before she was killed because Melinda found
Speaker 1: a bunch of undigested sushi in her stomach. So find
Speaker 1: out what time she ate, you'll get her time of death.
Speaker 1: So now we're at Rebecca's apartment and.
Speaker 2: That's straight from a forensic files. Like that shit's real. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like they do contents of stomach to solve christ.
Speaker 1: I remember Michael Baden doing that all the time, like
Speaker 1: figuring out the stomach stuff, yeah, or like where the
Speaker 1: maggots are in their growth.
Speaker 3: Really cool love forensic times.
Speaker 1: At Rebecca's apartment, they do find the sushi receipts Friday night,
Speaker 1: eight oh five. She got a bunch of sushi obviously
Speaker 1: enough for two, so she was eating with another person.
Speaker 1: Craigan is there and he thinks it could still be
Speaker 1: a cop. Rebecca has all this stuff up on her wall,
Speaker 1: like stop police brutality free Paedro Sanchez, so she's somehow
Speaker 1: involved in you know, the justice system, and Huang is
Speaker 1: there ready to profile. He says, this killer is organized, intelligent,
Speaker 1: and has a good knowledge of forensics. Their postcrime behavior
Speaker 1: was meticulous, like the way he sanitized the body. And
Speaker 1: then Benson finds a turkey baster in the bathtub. That's
Speaker 1: the most SBU line I've ever take.
Speaker 3: But you know what else? It could be the housewives.
Speaker 2: What do you mean, Well, there was a vibrator in
Speaker 2: the chicken that one time, So I'm just saying, like,
Speaker 2: turkey baster in the bathtub is the most ASIV line,
Speaker 2: But it could very easily be.
Speaker 1: A house easily easily. These women are shitting all over
Speaker 1: the place on luxury vacations. Trusts, it could be anything.
Speaker 1: So Benson thinks the pert probably filled that with rubbing
Speaker 1: alcohol and that was used for like the douche, and
Speaker 1: it's like we connected it with the turkey baster. But
Speaker 1: she's hammering the point home and Stabler's like, why not
Speaker 1: just dump the body in the river and like let
Speaker 1: all the evidence just you know, wash away, And Huang's like,
Speaker 1: because he cared about her, he laid her gently in
Speaker 1: the park, he posed her, he covered her with leaves.
Speaker 1: This person cared about her. So the crime scene tape
Speaker 1: was a message to the cops that he's smarter than them.
Speaker 1: And then we find out that Rebecca was taking grad
Speaker 1: courses in criminal justice at Wallace University, which is a
Speaker 1: university on the show we have not heard of before,
Speaker 1: and maybe maybe we hear again, never again, I mean
Speaker 1: have to I'll have to keep my eyes open for
Speaker 1: Wallace as we keep going with our podcast. But it
Speaker 1: doesn't ring any bells. So they go to Wallace. They
Speaker 1: speak to her professor. His name is Javi or Vega
Speaker 1: and he is played by James McDaniel. This man has
Speaker 1: an extensive IMDb. I know that he's very famous for
Speaker 1: being a regular on NYPD Blue back in the day.
Speaker 1: He was one of the regular people on that so
Speaker 1: famous working actor. And he says everyone loved Rebecca and
Speaker 1: stablers are like, yeah, but she did go missing for
Speaker 1: a week, like and no one reported it, like what
Speaker 1: And he's like, she was taking time off to finish
Speaker 1: her thesis and then they were asking like did she
Speaker 1: have a boyfriend? Blah blah blah. He's like, I don't
Speaker 1: think she dates that much. And what about her police record.
Speaker 1: She has a charge for obstruction, that's how they got
Speaker 1: her prints, and he explains, like that was dropped. She
Speaker 1: was interviewing an X con and she got caught in
Speaker 1: a drug sweep. So and they're like, okay, well how
Speaker 1: did she hang out with a lot of X cons?
Speaker 1: And Vega's like, I don't like your tone. It sounds
Speaker 1: like you're referring to X cons as lepers and Benson's like, no, no,
Speaker 1: we just like want to know what's up. Like he
Speaker 1: tells her that Rebecca's thesis is on convict re entry
Speaker 1: and how the system sets up ex convicts to fail
Speaker 1: when they come back out of incarceration. And smug Stabler
Speaker 1: like he's got that look on his face and he goes,
Speaker 1: how so like because he believes every criminal is a
Speaker 1: horrible person because he's got that angel devil shit from
Speaker 1: his Catholic upbringing, and that there's no nuance and no
Speaker 1: one can be rehabilitated. So the guy goes, well, they
Speaker 1: get dropped off from Rikers with five dollars and then
Speaker 1: he says, quote and all the horrors and dealers lined
Speaker 1: up to take it from them, so they don't exactly
Speaker 1: get a head start when they head out of prison.
Speaker 1: And Rebecca was trying to help them, and they're like, well,
Speaker 1: did she see any sex offenders and he says, well,
Speaker 1: rapists almost impossible to rehabilitate. She wanted uneducated screw ups
Speaker 1: and junkies, and she wanted to help them get their
Speaker 1: lives together. And he doesn't really know about any specific
Speaker 1: inmates she was working with. She just gives them the
Speaker 1: name Kyle Lherman and says that's her research partner. He'll
Speaker 1: know what you're looking for. So we go talk to
Speaker 1: Kyle Lherman and he's like crackheads, speed freaks, and muggers.
Speaker 1: She interviewed every inmate it sing sing within six months
Speaker 1: of their release, and he seems like he's like her
Speaker 1: job was, like she's a bleeding heart, Like I didn't
Speaker 1: really care about her stuff, like I care about the
Speaker 1: numbers and like the you know, the math of it
Speaker 1: all because he's a dork. And then he gives vents
Speaker 1: and all the records and his alibi for Friday night
Speaker 1: is that he got so wasted and his friends had
Speaker 1: to pour him into bed, and it's like you seem
Speaker 1: like you'd be like a really whiny drunk, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. He seems like a guy who would
Speaker 1: just get drunk and be like, no one wants to
Speaker 1: kiss me, you know. He just seems like that. And
Speaker 1: so he says what I just said, He's like, I
Speaker 1: crunch the numbers, Rebecca does the people work. And he
Speaker 1: tells the story about how Rebecca helped a guy who
Speaker 1: relapsed because he found out his kid had cancer, like
Speaker 1: right as he got out of jail, and she even
Speaker 1: got in bed with him to help him with like
Speaker 1: the withdrawal symptoms. But then they're like, well, where's he
Speaker 1: and he's like dead, he died. He owed it a
Speaker 1: week later. So it's like, why are you telling them
Speaker 1: this story? Like he's not the killer. I don't know
Speaker 1: why this story is like relevant. So then there's another
Speaker 1: guy who he sensitively calls a crackhead.
Speaker 2: Well, it's to set up their perception of Rebecca that
Speaker 2: she's just like, you know, opening up for all these
Speaker 2: for Alex con Yeah, that she that she's too trusting,
Speaker 2: too into them or whatnot.
Speaker 1: Too willing to do anything to help. Yeah. So then
Speaker 1: Kyle starts telling them the story about this crackhead. They
Speaker 1: say crackhead in this episode a thousand times. I'm not
Speaker 1: using that word. I'm like repeating what's being said in
Speaker 1: the episode. I don't know. I feel like it seems insensitive,
Speaker 1: but I yeah, all the there's so many bad words
Speaker 1: where it's like, can they just mean something different so
Speaker 1: we can use them. That's how I feel sometimes. But
Speaker 1: well also because you say crackhead about people and then
Speaker 1: it's like what they do Heroin that's not crack So like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's all these different it feels like
Speaker 1: crackhead encompasses a lot of people on this show. Anyway.
Speaker 1: This guy was trying to get clean and he was
Speaker 1: obsessed with Rebecca. Whenever she walked into Sing Sing, he'd
Speaker 1: give her a big hug, tell her how much he
Speaker 1: loved her, and that creeped Kyle out. And Rebecca was
Speaker 1: actually fine with him until he tried to kiss her
Speaker 1: and then she walked out. But then two days later
Speaker 1: she was back helping this guy. Who is this guy
Speaker 1: his name is Rudy something. Okay, So in the next scene, uh,
Speaker 1: we find out that the guy's name is Rudy lem Key.
Speaker 1: He's got a long rap sheet of crimes, mostly like
Speaker 1: you know, mostly sort of petty crimes, drugs, theft, stuff
Speaker 1: like where he's in jail for. He's in prison for
Speaker 1: a year to eighteen months or something, and she gave
Speaker 1: Rudy her phone number so that he could like call
Speaker 1: her at any time, so they were in touch. And
Speaker 1: Craigan goes, quote sounds like she got off talking to
Speaker 1: bad boys, and I'm like, or she just wants to
Speaker 1: help people. Everyone is just shitting on this woman who
Speaker 1: wants to help people. I wouldn't call like like people
Speaker 1: with serious drug problems bad ooh a bad boy ooh.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think that's what was going on with
Speaker 1: this woman. So he got paroled two weeks ago and
Speaker 1: he's at his wife's it turns out and they go
Speaker 1: to the apartment and the wife obviously has like I've
Speaker 1: barely seen him since he got out of prison. He
Speaker 1: came around here trying to have sex and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm with Dre now and I like her. She's got
Speaker 1: a fun attitude. And Benson's like, well, the parole board
Speaker 1: thinks he's here, and she's like, what am I supposed
Speaker 1: to do? Just like let him Roten jail if he
Speaker 1: has nowhere else to go, and Benson's like, yeah, but
Speaker 1: lying about his place of residence is like a big no. No,
Speaker 1: He's going to have to go back to prison now
Speaker 1: because he violated his parole. And Stabler's like, and also
Speaker 1: if he committed a crime while he was out, you're
Speaker 1: an accessory. And I don't know if I think that's Stabler.
Speaker 1: I think that's Stabler pushing it. And she goes, are
Speaker 1: you playing me? And Stabler's like, why don't you fuck
Speaker 1: around and find out? And so she tells them when
Speaker 1: I kicked him out, I said, go sleep at Saint
Speaker 1: AM's with like the homeless people. So now they're at
Speaker 1: Satam's homeless shelter.
Speaker 2: Which is something I learned recently that like getting into
Speaker 2: shelters and all the rules and all of that is
Speaker 2: actually very hard. Yeah, and that a lot of people
Speaker 2: that are on house preferred to be on the streets
Speaker 2: then within the shelters because people steal from them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of crime.
Speaker 3: Sometimes you have to pay for a bed to get
Speaker 3: in there.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just like it's just not as I mean,
Speaker 2: it's like most things when people are dismissive of people's
Speaker 2: struggles and it's like, why don't you just go do
Speaker 2: that and it's like yeah, actually it's really hard to
Speaker 2: do that, or yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard to follow
Speaker 2: these rules, or you can't be gay if it's in
Speaker 2: a church or whatever it is. Yeah, there's just like
Speaker 2: barriers to a shelter, even though they make it seem
Speaker 2: like it's this easy thing to do, yeah yeah, and
Speaker 2: or a pleasant thing too, Yeah, because I remember I
Speaker 2: volunteered at like a shelter once for domestic violence, and
Speaker 2: it's like a lot of the women didn't like the rules.
Speaker 2: It's like they got come from the as like abusive places,
Speaker 2: and then they have to follow all these rules and
Speaker 2: sometimes it's too oppressive and it's like there's just I
Speaker 2: don't know, sh it's tough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because at the same time, without rules, you know,
Speaker 1: isn't she gonna like just run them up?
Speaker 2: Like I just think it makes people it's like easier
Speaker 2: than for people to blame these people for individual flaws
Speaker 2: and like see it as a system. Because even when
Speaker 2: you talk about women, it's like why didn't you leave
Speaker 2: you go to a shelter, And it's like because you
Speaker 2: have to be in by nine o'clock and I work
Speaker 2: a night job, and I don't like whatever it is totally.
Speaker 1: I just I only learned.
Speaker 2: That recently about the homeless shelters, that they're actually like
Speaker 2: not as simple. I mean the Pursuit of Happiness kind
Speaker 2: of cover like showed that a little bit.
Speaker 1: Oh, I never remember saw that movie with Will Smith. No,
Speaker 1: I didn't like the way that happiness was spelled in
Speaker 1: the title, and I wouldn't see it. I knew it well. Also,
Speaker 1: Curly Sue, remember her little ring gets stolen?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, it always goes back to Curly Sue always.
Speaker 2: I love Little Curly. This is not the first time
Speaker 2: I've brought up Curly Sue on the top. There's no
Speaker 2: fucking way, all right, I interrupted again in a weird
Speaker 2: stone moment. I don't know what's happening to me talk about.
Speaker 1: I think it's very appropriate for this very special four
Speaker 1: twenty episode.
Speaker 3: I also love.
Speaker 1: The name Rudy. Rudy. We have a friend who has
Speaker 1: a little girl named Rudy. It's a cute ass name.
Speaker 1: So at the Saint Ann's Homeless Shelter, Benson and Stabler
Speaker 1: are there kind of helping their their bff, Sister Peg.
Speaker 1: Stabler's like moving a huge pot or something, and he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: what did you get tired of handing out condoms to
Speaker 1: the hookers? And it's like stay, but why is everyone
Speaker 1: being so rude to people who help people in this episode?
Speaker 1: Like everyone's just like trying to help people, and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: these people kind it's about law and order and punishment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: crime and punishment. And Sister Peg just gives out condoms.
Speaker 1: She doesn't do anything else of value anyway. She goes,
Speaker 1: I go where my girls go. We love we love
Speaker 1: Sister Peg, and they show her a pick of Rudy
Speaker 1: and Stabler kind of manipulates her and is like, well,
Speaker 1: we think he killed and raped a sister Peg type,
Speaker 1: like someone like you who was just out here trying
Speaker 1: to help out X convexx and like because of that,
Speaker 1: Sister PEG's like, okay, fine, he there he is. He's
Speaker 1: over there. He's the guy with the shopping cart, So
Speaker 1: they go try to talk to him. He obviously freaks
Speaker 1: pushes a shopping cart at Stabler, but then tries to escape.
Speaker 1: Benson slams his ass against the wall. It's rivaling wweo
Speaker 1: here at the homeless shelter and then we see Rudy
Speaker 1: is played by Dougie Doug an actor who is from
Speaker 1: Cool Runnings, a very well known actor and that was
Speaker 1: like one of his big movies. So they grab Rudy
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, is this like what you used
Speaker 1: to cut your bodies around? And he's like, what bodies?
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything. Like he's immediately like what did
Speaker 1: I do? Like what's going on? And then they find
Speaker 1: in his shopping cart they find Vega's book about criminal
Speaker 1: justice and like you know, of forensics and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, you're trying to learn some tricks
Speaker 1: and he's like, I'm just trying to educate myself and
Speaker 1: they're like, more like trying to cover up your crimes.
Speaker 1: And so now we're at the precinct.
Speaker 2: But this is also like when it's like aren't you detectives?
Speaker 3: Can't you tell this dude is high and not?
Speaker 2: It like not smart enough to start like rubbing alcohol,
Speaker 2: clipping nail Like I just so sometimes I'm like, how
Speaker 2: did you become detectives?
Speaker 1: Yeah? You know this guy, Yeah, this guy did not
Speaker 1: do all this like wrap the crime scene. This guy
Speaker 1: does not think he's smarter than the cops. You know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, while that Huang gave you, it
Speaker 1: ain't Rudy, like love Rudy. I want Rudy to get
Speaker 1: back on his feet. It's not Rudy. Rudy's not the
Speaker 1: one not to get I feel like that gives away
Speaker 1: for people that don't even watch the episode. But there's
Speaker 1: only a few of you. So Benson walks into the
Speaker 1: fish bowl as Lisa calls it and says, she's like,
Speaker 1: I got the cherry. On the Sunday, the sushi delivery
Speaker 1: drivers remembers Rudy being at Rebecca's place. So then Benson
Speaker 1: goes in to interrogate Rudy and he's like, what she
Speaker 1: bought me dinner? She's my friend, Like, yes, we ate
Speaker 1: sushi together. And they're pushing this whole story that Rudy
Speaker 1: just wanted to have sex, Rebecca resisted, he killed her
Speaker 1: by accident, and then he used the book to cover
Speaker 1: everything up. And he says, he's just like they're doing
Speaker 1: the bullying thing, screaming in his face. He's high, he
Speaker 1: doesn't know what's going on, and he goes, I didn't
Speaker 1: mean to hurt anyone, And then they give up his
Speaker 1: piece of paper and they're like, just start writing your confession,
Speaker 1: and so, you know, they think they've got it right.
Speaker 1: But then Craigan busts in and he goes, let me
Speaker 1: get a look at that book. So now we're in
Speaker 1: the next Rooman's like, you guys talk to Javier Vega
Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, he's the law professor. What's the
Speaker 1: big deal. Kragan's like, I collared him in nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: six for killing a woman named Joanna Lewis while he
Speaker 1: was on a three day heroin bender and he strangled
Speaker 1: her with his left hand. They realize also that Rudy
Speaker 1: is right handed. Didn't check any of that before. They
Speaker 1: just got in Rudy's face screaming at him about how
Speaker 1: he murdered someone, and he's very high, so it's probably
Speaker 1: not him, and Kragan's like, it's Vega, it's Vega, it's Vega.
Speaker 1: And he's like he tried to cover his ass with
Speaker 1: that crime scene gag, like he would know exactly how
Speaker 1: to do this, He's this professor of criminology. So they
Speaker 1: go to Vega's house and when he doesn't answer the door,
Speaker 1: they break down, the door, closets are empty, dressers are
Speaker 1: cleared out. This guy got out of there in a
Speaker 1: hurry and boom the cherry on the Sunday. As Benson says,
Speaker 1: the condoms are twisted desire.
Speaker 2: Which is so circumstantial, like you can't fucking use that core.
Speaker 1: The brand of condoms is crazy circumstantial. They are sold
Speaker 1: every Dwayne read. So Stabler is now downloading Craigan in
Speaker 1: a walk and talk coming from the elevator. He's like
Speaker 1: a neighbor remembers a two thousand and three LEXUSRX parked
Speaker 1: outside of Rebecca's apartment the night of the murder. That's Vegas,
Speaker 1: same model of car, and he's like, how did the
Speaker 1: guy remember all that? And he's like, the guy's a mechanic.
Speaker 1: He talked about the car like it was Paris Hilton.
Speaker 1: Love this reference, very two thousand and four. Perfect. Same
Speaker 1: guy thought, I you know what.
Speaker 2: I bet no one fucking thought that she would still
Speaker 2: be relevant to this day and here she is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know what, she had a dip in relevance.
Speaker 1: I would say she had a dip and she's back
Speaker 1: no up, just to us.
Speaker 2: But she was DJing the world selling products in Tokyo,
Speaker 2: fucking twenty five perfumes making bill, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: She's making so much money and she's successful. She's an entrepreneur,
Speaker 1: she has an entrepreneurial spirit. I'm just saying she wasn't
Speaker 1: like the blog fodder like I when I was working
Speaker 1: in two thousand and four, two thousand and five, two
Speaker 1: thousand and six. I mean, I was on Perez Hilton.
Speaker 1: I was on fucking de listed every day reading everything
Speaker 1: about this woman. And I'm saying, like, in the last
Speaker 1: decade that's waned a little bit. But now she's kind
Speaker 1: of back in with her mom's on the Housewives, she
Speaker 1: got married on Peacock. You know, she's back. She's kind
Speaker 1: of back in the public eye more, I would say.
Speaker 3: And her documentary, I think, and.
Speaker 1: That document I think it's got a lot of yes see,
Speaker 1: a different side. I still have to watch it, but yes.
Speaker 1: So this same guy, this witness said he saw a
Speaker 1: man in a black coat and a red scarf putting
Speaker 1: a big bundle in the back of the car. And
Speaker 1: the witness said it looked like, quote, a big ass
Speaker 1: bag of crap. And then Cragan goes, did this poet
Speaker 1: make a positive ID and I just I like the
Speaker 1: dialogue there and they say, you know, they're like, Vega
Speaker 1: has been clean since eighty eight, do you really think
Speaker 1: he's going to relapse now? And Craigan's like, he's just
Speaker 1: going back to who he really is, a thug and
Speaker 1: a junkie. And Benson wants to know did he rape
Speaker 1: the original victim and Craigan's like, well, we don't know
Speaker 1: because he stuffed her in a steel drum and by
Speaker 1: the time we found her she was partially decomposed, and
Speaker 1: that we were they couldn't find evidence of that. So
Speaker 1: they're like, he's come a long way though, like he's
Speaker 1: a professor now, and Craigan's like, well, maybe Rebecca dug
Speaker 1: up the truth about his past and he killed her
Speaker 1: to keep quiet. Go back to Rebecca's files, go back
Speaker 1: there and you know, find more. So back with the
Speaker 1: dor Kyle at the office. He points them to the
Speaker 1: files but says, you know, she never mentioned anything about
Speaker 1: vegas past to me, and Vega never mentioned anything about
Speaker 1: his past to me, and Kyle's like putting it all together.
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, no, wonder he was such a good teacher.
Speaker 1: He knew so much about prison life. I should have
Speaker 1: guessed he was in prison. And he says that the
Speaker 1: three of them, him and Rebecca and Professor Vega used
Speaker 1: to go to Vega's house all the time for drinks
Speaker 1: and to talk about their research. But last month Rebecca
Speaker 1: started making excuses not to go, and once she said
Speaker 1: she had concert tickets. But when he like later that night,
Speaker 1: he found her in the office crying and she wouldn't
Speaker 1: say why, and he told her, if you have a
Speaker 1: problem with Vega, you better deal with it because he's
Speaker 1: a really cool, supportive partner in grad school. And she
Speaker 1: got really upset and cool Avice Kyle and so he
Speaker 1: told her, like, if you if you're really that upset,
Speaker 1: you should go talk to the dean. And now we're
Speaker 1: at the dean's office at Wallace University and we find
Speaker 1: out that this dean hired Vega because of his past.
Speaker 1: He liked that. He was like, who would be better
Speaker 1: to teach criminology than someone who's been part of the
Speaker 1: justice system, part of you know, being has been incarcerated
Speaker 1: and then has like you know, worked their way to
Speaker 1: this level. So they kept it a secret because he
Speaker 1: thought parents and donors wouldn't be so open minded, And
Speaker 1: Stabler's like, I would want my kids being taught by
Speaker 1: a murderer. And the Dean's like, well, he's a changed man.
Speaker 1: Remember that prison is supposed to be for rehabilitation, not
Speaker 1: just like punishment and slave labor. And the dean cannot
Speaker 1: believe that Javier would have killed Rebecca, but he does
Speaker 1: admit that Rebecca had an appointment next week to talk
Speaker 1: to him about changing advisors. And the Dean believes Vega
Speaker 1: and says, but also, I did get an anonymous letter
Speaker 1: last week that demanded I fire Vega for covering up
Speaker 1: his past. How exactly did he cover it up? I
Speaker 1: don't really know. He didn't change his name, like it's
Speaker 1: all probably public record, like he just didn't mention it.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a cover up, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? I agree? Yeah. Benson and Stabler discuss the
Speaker 1: possibility of rehabilitating killers, and she wonders if it's like
Speaker 1: actually possible, and then Stabler goes, who knows? But then
Speaker 1: he makes his opinion very clear, and he goes, once
Speaker 1: a killer, always a killer. So it's like, well, it
Speaker 1: sounds like, you know, you know your opinion about that,
Speaker 1: and Benson's like, what about all that Catholic forgiveness? Remember
Speaker 1: the Catholic forgiveness that all those pedophile priests keep getting.
Speaker 1: And He's like, well, Jesus was perfect, I'm not. And
Speaker 1: a Stabler quote for the Ages. Really suddenly I'm surprised
Speaker 1: that he doesn't have that body that tattooed on his
Speaker 1: body somewhere. Suddenly Stabler sees in the file that Javier
Speaker 1: has a daughter named Gabrielle. We didn't know about this,
Speaker 1: And guess what, she's a grad student right here at
Speaker 1: Wallace University where her dad teaches. So now we're walking
Speaker 1: and talking with her and it's Zoe Sell Donna, and
Speaker 1: she is so pretty. I don't know what I know
Speaker 1: her from. What do you know her from? She's just famous,
Speaker 1: well Crossroads, cross Roads, But I think her big thing
Speaker 1: was Avatar, and she's in Guardians of the Galaxy because
Speaker 1: there's like a meme about how like she's in two
Speaker 1: like billion dollar grossing mood like Franchisayalaxy and Avatar. But
Speaker 1: I don't know, there must be something between this Sbu
Speaker 1: and Crossroads and Avatar. She's done a ton of stuff.
Speaker 1: She's done a ton of stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, I know people were mad at her because she
Speaker 2: was playing someone. She was playing Nina Simone, and people
Speaker 2: were like really mad because they had to color her darker.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, Oh, because she's light. She's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: she was in the TV show Six Degrees. I guess.
Speaker 1: I like, honestly, this is a blind spot actor for me.
Speaker 1: I remember her from Center Stage. I do remember that.
Speaker 1: That's one of her first moviesanter Exic, Right, yes, I
Speaker 1: think so, I'm and the rest of her the rest
Speaker 1: of her IMDb is just really not my stuff, Like
Speaker 1: it's just not stuff I've watched. But yeah, my Avatar
Speaker 1: is gorgeous. And I saw her on Cordon when I
Speaker 1: went to be in the audience one time when my
Speaker 1: husband worked on that show. So I've seen her up
Speaker 1: close and she's pretty dude.
Speaker 2: So in post production is Avatar, The Way of the Water,
Speaker 2: Avatar three, four and five, and then also in post
Speaker 2: production is Guardians of the Galaxy Volume three, and an
Speaker 2: untitled Star Trek is in pre production. Truly could quit
Speaker 2: working right now, never have to lift a finger the
Speaker 2: rest of her life.
Speaker 3: Crazy, Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never seen so many post production credits like
Speaker 1: or pre production credit, like so many things in the works.
Speaker 2: Did you see the Jamie Lee Curtis quote recently where
Speaker 2: she they were like, would you do Marvel or Superhero?
Speaker 2: She's like, I mean sure, but I'm scared they would
Speaker 2: just have me in a warehouse covered in dots, acting
Speaker 2: in a green screen.
Speaker 1: And I just thought that was funny. I did tell
Speaker 1: them it's amazing. Oh my god. Okay, so you've probably
Speaker 1: seen it. It went viral, but it was so funny. She
Speaker 1: had like she had Leah Michelle, a hated person on
Speaker 1: her podcast, and she goes and.
Speaker 3: With James Groff he was there too. Oh yeah, three
Speaker 3: of them, and did.
Speaker 1: You guys win any Tony's And she goes, we won
Speaker 1: eight Tony Awards and Jamielle Curtis goes, but you didn't, Leah.
Speaker 1: And it's one of the funniest things.
Speaker 2: Well, because Shade, I'm wondering if it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: joyful Shade, or if it's like, oh, we worked on
Speaker 2: Scream Queens and you're a dumb bitch, and I want
Speaker 2: to make sure you know it, Like that's my curiosity.
Speaker 1: I would love to know. It'll be the first thing
Speaker 1: I ask when I meet Jamie Lee Curtis one day.
Speaker 2: So people in the Housewives does make her more attainable.
Speaker 2: We just have to go to a child hospital charity event.
Speaker 2: Let's just get a table at an event. We'll find her. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we'll get to her. Lindsay Lohan really loves her. I
Speaker 2: think Jamie Lee Curtis is like a beloved figure.
Speaker 1: And oh yeah, she's married to Christopher Guest, who's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite people of all time. I did know
Speaker 1: that they were married. That's fun, crazy, right, power couple.
Speaker 1: I don't think people knew that.
Speaker 3: You really, I can't.
Speaker 1: Believe she's never been in any of his movies. I
Speaker 1: think she'd be fun and like in like those poes
Speaker 1: that don't want to work to imprav movies. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: Maybe they okay to keep their marriage fresh and not
Speaker 2: go to work together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, another huge aside for me and Lisa Back.
Speaker 2: I know, but I'm happy to know about this Christopher Guest,
Speaker 2: I know this Iss mcdorman's married to one of the
Speaker 2: Cohen brothers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like too. I like these but that makes
Speaker 1: it like, I mean, that's not crazy because you see
Speaker 1: her in all of their movies. You know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like you're kind of like, ah, she got to marry
Speaker 1: one of them, you know. So Zoe Saldana is playing
Speaker 1: his daughter and they're doing a very fast walk and
Speaker 1: talk with her and she's like, I don't know where
Speaker 1: he is, but I know he didn't kill anyone. And
Speaker 1: they're like, okay, well, then why did she run? And
Speaker 1: she says, because he knew that. When you found out
Speaker 1: about his record, you would all you would see is
Speaker 1: an ex khan and you would suspect him. And they're like, well,
Speaker 1: he did murder someone thirty years ago, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know that person. My father found out about
Speaker 1: me after my mom died. She he went to see
Speaker 1: him in prison. That's why he got clean and started
Speaker 1: going to school, wrote her every day, worked really hard
Speaker 1: to make a good life for her. And she says
Speaker 1: that was a stupid mistake he made when he was
Speaker 1: a kid, and Benson's like, well, it's like murder, not
Speaker 1: turnstile jumping, but okay, And then Zoe was like, well,
Speaker 1: he was a different person when he was high. He's
Speaker 1: been clean for sixteen years, but you guys do not
Speaker 1: give a shit about that. And Benson's like, well, either way,
Speaker 1: we need to find him so we can clear him.
Speaker 1: And Zoe's like, well, I'm actually a law student and
Speaker 1: I know you bitches lie all the time, so even
Speaker 1: if I knew where he was, I wouldn't tell you.
Speaker 1: And then Sabler goes right for the humiliation factor because
Speaker 1: we're at her place of business right now. We're like
Speaker 1: at her were at law firm or wherever she's working,
Speaker 1: and he starts screaming does anyone know this man? Has
Speaker 1: anyone seen this man? And like showing a photo of
Speaker 1: her dad, and she's like, you guys are assholes, and
Speaker 1: then she goes search all you want. He left the country,
Speaker 1: And so now we're filling Cragan and again at the
Speaker 1: precinct and they're like, we don't think he left the country.
Speaker 1: There's nothing on flights, nothing at the borders, like, we
Speaker 1: don't think this guy left or maybe hasn't left yet,
Speaker 1: and Stabler is like, I think he's still in New
Speaker 1: York because I think he doesn't want to leave his
Speaker 1: daughter behind, and they like, oh, do you think she's
Speaker 1: dumb enough to be hiding him? I think she would
Speaker 1: do anything for him, And Craigan's like, bring her in
Speaker 1: I'll talk to her. And Stabler's like, are you sure, bro,
Speaker 1: you seem a little quote unquote involved, and Craigan's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: he raped and murdered an innocent young girl. Of course
Speaker 1: I'm involved. And then they're like, boom, a car and
Speaker 1: Queen's just spotted his car. Craigan runs for the door,
Speaker 1: even though Stabler says he can handle it, so stay.
Speaker 1: You can tell that there's something personal about this for Cregan.
Speaker 1: This is a Craigan heavy episode, Daddy Craigs. So in Queens,
Speaker 1: they are inspecting Vegas car. Benson gets in and sniffs
Speaker 1: around and insists that he's been traveling with an older
Speaker 1: woman because her little bloodhound nose smells Lilli's and roses,
Speaker 1: and that no one over sixty wear's that kind of perfume.
Speaker 1: And Stabler's kind of like, you don't think his daughter
Speaker 1: could have worn that perfume, and Benson's like, Gabrielle wears
Speaker 1: sandalwood and Bergamott, and then she goes, women notice these things,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I do not. I actually have a
Speaker 1: very good nose for perfumes. If it's a perfume, I know,
Speaker 1: I'll be like, are you wearing Michael Cors Are you
Speaker 1: wearing Ralph Lauren? Are you wearing I can smell perfumes
Speaker 1: very well, but I don't know notes. I don't know
Speaker 1: what they're made out of, Like, oh, is that Guardina? Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I can say I can always sense like a rose action.
Speaker 2: I feel like roses. Oh really, I'm kind of and Lily's.
Speaker 1: Do you have a very distinct But I would not
Speaker 1: know sandalwood and Bergamont not me.
Speaker 3: But you know, yeah, and then I can smell vanilla.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the food ones so they spot a bus stop
Speaker 1: near whatever.
Speaker 2: Have the sprays from the drug stores that like smelled
Speaker 2: like cotton candy or I had a gummy bear one.
Speaker 1: I had a cotton candy hair hair spray that I
Speaker 1: used to use when I smoked when I was like
Speaker 1: a teen, not like a teen, but like in my
Speaker 1: late twenteens and early twenties, I would spray to my
Speaker 1: hair because my hair soaks up so much smell that
Speaker 1: I didn't want my mom to like smell cigarettes on me.
Speaker 1: And I always had like cotton candy hair perfume or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so funny. We were just a bunch of little sweet
Speaker 1: sugar babies. Okay, So they spot on bus stop nearby.
Speaker 1: They go talk to the driver, who tells them that
Speaker 1: her root goes by a ton of cemeteries. Stablers like,
Speaker 1: give me your newspaper. They look up Rebecca's funeral was
Speaker 1: that morning, so boom, boom, boom, they're putting it together.
Speaker 1: He must have been carrying flowers. She was wrong about
Speaker 1: the perfume. He was going, that's crazy. To me, perfume
Speaker 1: and fresh flowers smell so different. And I don't even
Speaker 1: think fresh flowers linger No, Like that to me is bad.
Speaker 3: It's the s fail.
Speaker 1: It's like silly, and it's like trying to I think
Speaker 1: they're trying to do a bunch of moments where like
Speaker 1: Benson is smarter than Stabler because she's a woman, Like
Speaker 1: the nail polish, the flower perfume stuff like, it's like
Speaker 1: women have a lot more observant powers than men do
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. You know, my husband notices
Speaker 1: fucking nothing, you know. So I think they're trying to
Speaker 1: make that point. I guess. Anyway, they're like, he's at
Speaker 1: Rebecca's grape site. So they go there. They find the
Speaker 1: Vegas standing by the grave site with flowers in his hand,
Speaker 1: he's got his passport on him. They arrest him. He
Speaker 1: doesn't recognize Cragan right away, but Craigan goes, it'll come
Speaker 1: back to you, and then they mirandize Vega and take
Speaker 1: him away. In interrogation, it's come back to Vega and
Speaker 1: he's like, Cragan, I should have known you were behind this,
Speaker 1: which is like a such a comic book line. I
Speaker 1: should have known it was you behind this. And Vega
Speaker 1: said he had no choice put to run. You guys
Speaker 1: were going to decide I was guilty as soon as
Speaker 1: you heard that I was an ex con. And he
Speaker 1: says he didn't do this and someone is setting him
Speaker 1: up Rebecca, and Craigan points out Rebecca was strangled by
Speaker 1: a lefty, she was raped by someone using your brand
Speaker 1: of condoms, and dumped by someone driving your car. So
Speaker 1: it's a lot.
Speaker 2: But if he's so smart, why would he repeat all
Speaker 2: those patterns? Like he's smart enough to set all that up,
Speaker 2: but he would do it the exact, same, exact.
Speaker 1: Way, And Vega says that he goes, I've spent the
Speaker 1: last twenty years studying crime when I have covered my
Speaker 1: tracks better, Like it's true if he would have wanted
Speaker 1: to kill someone, he'd be like, the first thing he
Speaker 1: would have said is I'm going to change my mom
Speaker 1: I'm going to shoot them. I'm going to stab them,
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna not do the same exact thing I
Speaker 1: did to this woman, you know, years ago. But he's like, well,
Speaker 1: you tried to cover your tracks, and he I mean
Speaker 1: he did the person did so. So he's like, what
Speaker 1: about the motive. Why would I kill Rebecca? I loved her,
Speaker 1: she loved me, and we were going to get married.
Speaker 1: So this is the first time we find out that
Speaker 1: they were, like, you know, involved, but no one has
Speaker 1: even suggested this yet. And then Craigan is like, well,
Speaker 1: well then why was she changing advisors and megas like
Speaker 1: I told her to a student sleeping with her professor,
Speaker 1: just like looks bad. It would be better for both
Speaker 1: of us. And then they say, but her prints were
Speaker 1: lifted off this letter that was sent to the dean
Speaker 1: outing you as a murderer. And he looks at the
Speaker 1: letter and he's like, there's no way she wrote that.
Speaker 1: He's like, I had no reason to kill her, She
Speaker 1: had no reason to write that letter. And he told
Speaker 1: her everything about his past months ago, and then Craigan
Speaker 1: gets real close, like Stabler level close, and goes, I
Speaker 1: remember when we collared you for murdering Joanna Lewis and
Speaker 1: you cried like a baby. You lied about it, but
Speaker 1: your prints were all over the drum where you stuffed her.
Speaker 1: And he's like, that was my past. I'm a different man,
Speaker 1: just like you, and then he goes, I remember you.
Speaker 1: You were a drunk. You changed, didn't you, Captain you
Speaker 1: think you're the only one who can. And then Craigan
Speaker 1: is like, all right, noted, I'm listening, and Vega's like, listen,
Speaker 1: I was at Rebecca's the night she died, but when
Speaker 1: I left, she was alive. And then Vega goes, ask
Speaker 1: Rudy Lemke, he was at Rebecca's house that night. I
Speaker 1: dropped him off at the Lydia Hotel to crash for
Speaker 1: the night, and he'll tell you she was alive when
Speaker 1: we left. What I don't understand, though, is why didn't
Speaker 1: Vega report her missing. All of her friends thought that
Speaker 1: she was like working on her thesis, but he would
Speaker 1: have spoken to her while she was working on her
Speaker 1: thesis for a week, right, his girlfriend?
Speaker 2: Yeah, But if someone was like, I'm going to go
Speaker 2: right at a cabin for three days, Like I don't
Speaker 2: know if I would be suspicious if I didn't.
Speaker 1: Hear from them for three days. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: it's just something that popped into my head. So at
Speaker 1: the precinct, Stabler says that Vega's lying because no one
Speaker 1: at the Lydio wrote hotel remembers him but or Rudy.
Speaker 1: But it's like, first of all, he dropped off Rudy,
Speaker 1: so he wouldn't have even gone inside. Second of all,
Speaker 1: the Lydia hotel gone to before and is like a
Speaker 1: full roach motel where like the people behind it are
Speaker 1: not like paying attention to people coming and going, Like
Speaker 1: I don't think that's like a smoking gun that he's lying.
Speaker 1: But anyway, Craigan can't believe he allowed himself to believe
Speaker 1: Vega for a second. And now Casey Novak's on the
Speaker 1: scene and she's like, you guys gotta find Rudy, and
Speaker 1: they're like, well, Finn put the word out on the street.
Speaker 1: Every crackhead and dealer knows we're looking for him. Like again,
Speaker 1: so much crackhead. And anyway, as usual, Casey is there
Speaker 1: to like fully blow up their lives, and she says,
Speaker 1: everything you have a circumstantial his past murder can't really
Speaker 1: be used unless Petrovski allows me to bring up prior
Speaker 1: bad acts. And I don't know if she's gonna do that.
Speaker 1: And Novak is like, I'm not saying I can't win it.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I really want Rudy and they're like,
Speaker 1: we'll get him. And then Novak's like, Craigs, can I
Speaker 1: talk to you for a second and now we kind
Speaker 1: of find out why this has been so personal. Novak
Speaker 1: wants to know why in nineteen seventy five, Vega got
Speaker 1: a grand theft auto charge but the prosecutor like dropped
Speaker 1: the charges because the arresting officer recommended leniency. And the
Speaker 1: arresting officer was Captain Craig and when he was a
Speaker 1: little baby boy, and he says he was a kid.
Speaker 1: He seems serious about cleaning up his act. And then
Speaker 1: Novak's like, but then he didn't clean up his act
Speaker 1: and he killed Joanna Lewis, And she's like, I just
Speaker 1: want to make sure that there's not like a personal
Speaker 1: vendetta going on here where you want to like make
Speaker 1: up for this mistake you made. In the past, and
Speaker 1: he's like, I just want him to go to jail
Speaker 1: because he did it and he did the wrong thing.
Speaker 1: So now we're in court. Vega's on the stand. He
Speaker 1: fully admits he killed Joanna Lewis. He was nineteen, high
Speaker 1: on heroin and he didn't know what he was doing.
Speaker 1: He served his time, and his lawyer points out that
Speaker 1: for the last seven months he's donated five hundred dollars
Speaker 1: a month to the Joanna Lewis Memorial Fund, which the
Speaker 1: court did not ask him to do. He just does
Speaker 1: it because it's right, and he hopes he can use
Speaker 1: his mistakes to teach others, and that's why he became
Speaker 1: a professor. And he said Rebecca was smart and generous
Speaker 1: and he was in love with her and could never
Speaker 1: have killed her. And then Novak approaches in some knee
Speaker 1: high boots and a knee length skirt. Did you clock
Speaker 1: this look?
Speaker 2: I didn't clock it, but it made me smile as
Speaker 2: soon as you said it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like a little It was very fall
Speaker 1: two thousand and four. I can tell remember when she
Speaker 1: told us that her outfits were always bad, and then
Speaker 1: they tried to make her a little bit hipper I
Speaker 1: can tell this is them trying to go into the
Speaker 1: like the away from like the just gray skirt suit look.
Speaker 1: And anyway, she immediately starts showing photos of Joanna's neck
Speaker 1: versus Rebecca's neck. They look the same. Then she shows
Speaker 1: the condom fragment and says, this is your brand. Shows
Speaker 1: the fiber that's the same material as his coat, and
Speaker 1: it's very smug. Here, she's very smug. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: the peak Novak. Yeah, and now peak Novak is in. Mean,
Speaker 1: let's be honest, what's your birth Yeah, that is good Novak.
Speaker 1: But that season four that's behind her. I can't believe
Speaker 1: Casey's peaked. I cannot believe Casey's peaked by five. So
Speaker 1: and then she shows the letter and that Rebecca looks
Speaker 1: like she wrote it because her fingerprints are all over it.
Speaker 1: And if she didn't write it, who did? And he goes,
Speaker 1: why don't you ask the cops? So he implies that
Speaker 1: he's being framed by the cops, and then Casey goes,
Speaker 1: so the police knew year brand of condom, put the
Speaker 1: piece of it inside of Rebecca, jammed a fiber down
Speaker 1: her throat, and like you know, she is being a
Speaker 1: good lawyer, like that is a that is a far
Speaker 1: walk for a lot of jurors to go on that
Speaker 1: that police were that conspiratorial, and he screams, I did
Speaker 1: not kill her, like he screams at twice and then
Speaker 1: he stares daggers at Novak and his daughter Zoe Saldana
Speaker 1: is in the courtroom looking not happy. And in the
Speaker 1: next scene, we're at the precinct and Craigan comes in
Speaker 1: and says, Jerry came back in an hour and convicted
Speaker 1: on all accounts. So we think we're done, but we
Speaker 1: know we're not because we're not even halfway through the show.
Speaker 1: Or we are, but we're not done. Sister Peg walks
Speaker 1: in and goes, is it true you're looking for Rudy?
Speaker 1: And it's like the amount of time that they would
Speaker 1: have been looking for Rudy, And when a court case happens,
Speaker 1: it's like they act like it happened in two days.
Speaker 1: And Bens's like the trail's over and she knows where
Speaker 1: he is, Sister Peg, but she wants to make sure
Speaker 1: he's protected. He was innocent. You pushed him over the edge.
Speaker 1: You spread his name around town. Now all the dealers
Speaker 1: think he's a rat and Benson's like, well, straighten things
Speaker 1: out on the street, and I would love to know
Speaker 1: how they plan to do that, and she's like, after
Speaker 1: we talked to Rudy. And then sister PEG's like fine,
Speaker 1: and she takes them to Rudy and we are talking
Speaker 1: to Rudy and he goes, the Professor is telling the truth.
Speaker 1: He did drop me off at the hotel. Obviously he's
Speaker 1: been using drugs and his spotty on the time, and
Speaker 1: he goes, maybe it was right after nine, after the
Speaker 1: Professor and Rebecca were done duking it out. And so
Speaker 1: we find out they were fighting that night about letting
Speaker 1: Rudy stay on the couch. He didn't want a crackhead
Speaker 1: sleeping on his girlfriend's couch. Again crackhead, and he said, yeah,
Speaker 1: they were all lovey dovey, they were getting married. Rebecca
Speaker 1: told him that. So now we know that he wasn't,
Speaker 1: you know, creating this romantic relationship.
Speaker 2: And so my brain as you were talking went to
Speaker 2: Making of a Murderer, you know, like it's kind of
Speaker 2: connected in a way. And then it reminded me that
Speaker 2: in Edinburgh this past year there's a Making of a
Speaker 2: Murderer musical.
Speaker 1: The musical. Oh my god, Wow, that is fun. I
Speaker 1: would love to see that. So they're begging Rudy. They're like,
Speaker 1: you gotta think we need to know the time he
Speaker 1: dropped you off. Rudy does not remember, but he does
Speaker 1: remember that it stopped raining on their way over there,
Speaker 1: so okay, they check the Weather service. The rain stopped
Speaker 1: at nine twenty two, but the witness puts the Lexus
Speaker 1: at the house at eleven thirty, so he must have
Speaker 1: gone back to Killer, So go talk to this witness
Speaker 1: again and just double check. So they go back and
Speaker 1: they talk to this witness and he's like, I'm positive
Speaker 1: it was eleven thirty and the Simpsons had just ended,
Speaker 1: and I got up to close my window and I
Speaker 1: saw a guy in a cold put a big ass
Speaker 1: bundle into the Lexus and then he shows him he
Speaker 1: was parked right there. And then right as that happens,
Speaker 1: a guy blows the light and they realize that there's
Speaker 1: a red light camera there. So they're like, all right,
Speaker 1: let's go check this red light camera and see if
Speaker 1: it maybe caught Vegas car or whatever. So they go there.
Speaker 1: They see that Alexis was gone at nine ish. Like
Speaker 1: that backs up Vegas story. But then it's back at
Speaker 1: eleven ish, so he must have come back to Killer
Speaker 1: as they said. And then Benson is like, let's just
Speaker 1: check the license plate really quick, which I don't even
Speaker 1: think that they that's extra due diligence. I feel like
Speaker 1: because it's the same exact making model of the car
Speaker 1: color everything, Benson goes, can you blow that up? And
Speaker 1: the guy goes enhancing, which reminds me of this episode
Speaker 1: of Adam Ruins Everything where I first learned that all
Speaker 1: the shit is bullshit like that you cannot enhance images
Speaker 1: like that. It's just like, is impossible. And do you
Speaker 1: know Shavn Thompson, she's like a comedian and more of
Speaker 1: like a sketch comedian, but she is like British and
Speaker 1: she played the like edgycsu tech with like you know,
Speaker 1: asymmetrical haircut and she's like and haunts and because she's British,
Speaker 1: so she goes in hunts and hunts like and it
Speaker 1: reminded me the exact scene and it's just bullshit. You
Speaker 1: cannot like just enhance, you cannot just blow up a
Speaker 1: picture of a license plate, and then all the pixels
Speaker 1: fade away and it's a clear picture, but anyway, I
Speaker 1: love it for the show. They double check the plates
Speaker 1: and they realize done, done twist. These are two different cars.
Speaker 1: They have different license plates, and one of them is
Speaker 1: Vegas car obviously, and the other one is from a
Speaker 1: rental car agency. So they go to the agency. The
Speaker 1: guy gives them the rental agreement. The license is fake.
Speaker 1: You can't even see the picture of who rented it.
Speaker 1: And they're like, you don't want us to bust you
Speaker 1: for renting to unlacense people, do you? And the guy's like,
Speaker 1: let's play, Let's make a deal. He's like, we put
Speaker 1: GPS trackers into the more expensive cars. I can tell
Speaker 1: you where this car was at all times. So they
Speaker 1: look at the record of the car and they see
Speaker 1: that whoever drove it drove it to Rebecca's house and
Speaker 1: probably straight into Central Park, and so that is the killer.
Speaker 1: Now they have to find this car, so like, where
Speaker 1: is it? Craigan back with Craigan. He feels really bad
Speaker 1: that he bought into this whole frame job, and he
Speaker 1: tells them tear apart the rental car. I'll go talk
Speaker 1: to Vega And the next scene, Vega is obviously very unhappy.
Speaker 1: He is screaming at Craig and he's like, amstake a mistake?
Speaker 1: And Craigan is apologetic, but Vega is still very, very pissed,
Speaker 1: and he's like, are you going to bring Rebecca back?
Speaker 1: Are you going to get my career back for me?
Speaker 1: And then Craigan can tell from the way that he's
Speaker 1: acting that he's using again, and Vega doesn't deny it.
Speaker 1: He's like it just makes the time go quicker in here,
Speaker 1: and Craigan's like, you need to get clean. I can
Speaker 1: get you help, and Vega's like your help put me
Speaker 1: in here, and he asks who killed Rebecca and Craigan's like,
Speaker 1: probably someone who wanted to hurt you. Do you have
Speaker 1: any any ideas and he's like not aside from the NYPD.
Speaker 1: So then Craigan goes to Novak and is like, we
Speaker 1: got to get Vega out right now. She's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm getting him out tomorrow morning and he's like, no,
Speaker 1: not soon enough. It's got to be now. And Rikers
Speaker 1: can't get him to court till the morning, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I'll call it a favor. I'll get Vega to court
Speaker 1: if you can get the motion on the calendar, and
Speaker 1: Craigan is like very much beating himself up over this,
Speaker 1: and Novak is like, you were just doing your job.
Speaker 1: Everyone's trying to tell him it's not his fault, but
Speaker 1: he obviously is pissed at himself. So they dismissed the
Speaker 1: charges against Vega. Zoe Seldona's stink eyeing Captain Craigan very aggressively,
Speaker 1: Petrowski sets aside the verdict with the court's apologies. Zoe
Speaker 1: sidles up to Craigan and goes, do you own a home, Captain,
Speaker 1: because they are suing him baby twelve million dollars in damages.
Speaker 1: They're suing him, the department, the whole, the whole gang.
Speaker 1: So then Craigan goes outside and he's not scared to
Speaker 1: face the press. He just like walks out into what
Speaker 1: looks like a barrage of flashing light bulbs and you know,
Speaker 1: screaming reporters. So then at the garage where they found
Speaker 1: the rental car, they're dismantling this car and O'Halloran is
Speaker 1: there and they're like, we've really found nothing, like there's
Speaker 1: nothing here. Then they find nail clippers with the nail
Speaker 1: clipping in it of the same nail polish color that
Speaker 1: she was wearing with her brand new manicure, and he
Speaker 1: doest sit and boom, there's a fingerprint on the nail clippers.
Speaker 1: I don't know how this guy wasn't wearing gloves the
Speaker 1: whole time. He literally douched someone with rubbing alcohol. But okay,
Speaker 1: now Cyper is running the print. Nothing, nothing, nothing, and
Speaker 1: Craigan's like, expand the search and then they get a
Speaker 1: hit on the print and it belongs to Done Done,
Speaker 1: the dorky research partner Kyle. At this point, Hi you Kyle.
Speaker 1: At this point, I honestly was almost thinking that it
Speaker 1: was Zoe Saldana and she was like, get away from
Speaker 1: my dad, like he's mine. I didn't have enough time
Speaker 1: with him, and like, you know, I think that that's
Speaker 1: happened before on the show. But in my mind, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, it's gonna be Zoe Selton.
Speaker 2: Another little dork helper. So it's been other dork helpers
Speaker 2: before too. There's like a Church episode where that's coming
Speaker 2: to mind. Yes, so, and I'm sir Kile wanted a
Speaker 2: fuck Rebecca too, I mean, yeah, that was it, like
Speaker 2: fucking of course.
Speaker 1: So they go to his place and he's gone. There
Speaker 1: are tons of picks of Vega and Rebecca together, so
Speaker 1: he was obviously stalking Vega and or Rebecca, and he
Speaker 1: must have grabbed the condoms when he was at Vega's
Speaker 1: house for drinks one of these times, because he goes
Speaker 1: there all the time. Then Zoey sell Donnah shows up
Speaker 1: at the precinct and she's like, please help my dad,
Speaker 1: and Craigan's like, I really can't talk to you, ma'am,
Speaker 1: like you're suing me, so good day. And then she's like, no, wait, look,
Speaker 1: he left this note. I'm worried he might be taking
Speaker 1: his own life. And then they read the letter and
Speaker 1: it says something like I hope you can forgive me
Speaker 1: one final sin for justice. So now they're realizing, uh,
Speaker 1: oh Lerman did not leave town. Vega kidnapped him, so
Speaker 1: he must have taken him somewhere emotionally significant, and they're like,
Speaker 1: what about Central Park where he left Rebecca's body. So
Speaker 1: now they head over to that area and there's already
Speaker 1: a standoff. We get there between Vega and the cops
Speaker 1: and the Vega has Lerman held hostage and he's holding
Speaker 1: a teeny tiny gun up to him and like you know,
Speaker 1: holding him hostage, and Leerman's begging for help, and Vega
Speaker 1: forces Lerman to confess like he has got but he
Speaker 1: does have a gun on him. So I don't feel
Speaker 1: like it's like you're a criminology professor, you know that
Speaker 1: that's not how you get a confession. So this guy
Speaker 1: is saying that he went over there to give her
Speaker 1: one more chance and then he killed her spontaneously with
Speaker 1: this whole fucking plan. He had rubbing alcohol, he had
Speaker 1: the rental car that looked like Vega's. I mean, this
Speaker 1: guy went over there to kill her, right, Like this
Speaker 1: is a full plan that's been hatched.
Speaker 2: You're one hundred percent right, But maybe he would be
Speaker 2: okay not doing the plan if she had sex with him,
Speaker 2: Like I don't, I don't really know, but he gdly
Speaker 2: he planned for the rejection.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, the.
Speaker 1: Car if he went and killed her that night and
Speaker 1: then he runted the car the next day because she
Speaker 1: was she could have been dead in her apartment for
Speaker 1: a while. Obviously no one was looking for her for
Speaker 1: some reason. So like it's just weird. Yeah, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know, that doesn't really click for me. This guy
Speaker 1: over there to kill her. It wasn't like, well we
Speaker 1: you know, she didn't want this nerd dick. So Cragan
Speaker 1: is trying to talk Vega off the ledge, like come on,
Speaker 1: don't do this. Vega finally drops the weapon. He's crying,
Speaker 1: it's emotional. Then this idiot Lureman grabs the gun like
Speaker 1: what are you doing? And then the cops just kill
Speaker 1: him so fast. So he's boom boom boom dead. And
Speaker 1: then Craigan takes Vega to go see his daughter, and
Speaker 1: that is dick wolf Baby. I love that.
Speaker 3: Do you think boom boom boom dead is March or what?
Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll see if it resonates let us
Speaker 1: know in the comments.
Speaker 2: Enjoy our commercials and we'll be back.
Speaker 3: Okay, welcome back.
Speaker 2: So this is going to be a non traditional true
Speaker 2: crime portion of our podcast. We really wanted to do
Speaker 2: this episode, and the crimes that the wiki gives that
Speaker 2: sometimes we use as a reference is fucking wrong, and
Speaker 2: I'm pissed.
Speaker 1: No I'm not.
Speaker 2: We'll learn some fun, interesting things, but I went on
Speaker 2: some tangents and we're just gonna go with the flow.
Speaker 2: First of all, the wiki suggested Frank Abagnel who is
Speaker 2: What is Catch Me If you Can? Is based on
Speaker 2: what does that have to do with this episode?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: No one is pretending to be a pilot. No one's
Speaker 2: running around with Tom Hanks like nothing makes sense. There's
Speaker 2: no financial crimes, there's no forgery. I'm pissed. So I
Speaker 2: did no research. Go watch Catch Me if you Can
Speaker 2: if you want to know about this guy. So the
Speaker 2: next case that the wiki suggests is Kevin Tanell. And
Speaker 2: this is interesting because I think it's just like under
Speaker 2: the influence murder.
Speaker 1: Can you change what happens? What punishment's fair? Ya Yadam?
Speaker 1: So this happened.
Speaker 2: The Kevin tunnel case started in the last they have
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one. It was New Year's Eve and Kevin
Speaker 2: is underage and he got he was seventeen, and so
Speaker 2: he took his older brother's ID and he was just
Speaker 2: planning to drive to the market near his house in Fairfax,
Speaker 2: Virginia and score a couple of bottles of champagne okay
Speaker 2: for New Year's doesn't seem too crazy. And then he
Speaker 2: went out partying for the night and decided to drive home.
Speaker 2: The Washington Post reported that he had four or five
Speaker 2: glasses of champagne, which is actually not that much or
Speaker 2: is it? Is that a bottle?
Speaker 1: That depends on how big the glasses are. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's almost a bottle of champagne, but you don't with champagne,
Speaker 1: you don't really drink as much as a wine glass.
Speaker 1: But then when you're young, you drink crazy. So who knows, Like,
Speaker 1: is that four or five solo cups of champagne? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it really could be, but it's probably
Speaker 1: not a great number. Four or five of any drink
Speaker 1: is probably not a great number to drive on. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. I don't know why.
Speaker 3: I'm fine.
Speaker 2: But also small town drunk driving is like scary because
Speaker 2: I think it's just kind of expected. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So his friends did try to stop him, but like
Speaker 2: anyone that's dronk, he insisted, like, oh, nothing ever bad
Speaker 2: happens to me.
Speaker 1: And that's quoted in the La Times famous last words, Jesus, Yeah,
Speaker 1: something did happen.
Speaker 2: He had a giant like gray Dodge and it rounded
Speaker 2: a blind curve and it swerved across the double yellow
Speaker 2: lines and into a compact Volkswagen car which was being
Speaker 2: driven by Susan Marie Herzog.
Speaker 1: Now she died.
Speaker 2: Instantly, which is good because the impact fractured her skull,
Speaker 2: broke her neck, both of her arms, both of her legs.
Speaker 1: Like she was fully kind of broken. So in like
Speaker 1: a sad way, it's good that she died instantly. Seemed
Speaker 1: like the injuries were a lot and tunnel. He walked
Speaker 1: away with just a bump on his head and a
Speaker 1: few cuts. So he pled guilty in a Virginia juvenile
Speaker 1: court to d WI manslaughter and had to publicly confess
Speaker 1: his crimes, and he cried and was very emotional on
Speaker 1: the stand. He was not old, Oh okay, yeah, which
Speaker 1: in some places I think you would be charged as
Speaker 1: an adult. I mean we know cases where you're thirteen
Speaker 1: in charge adults, So like, yeah, I guess.
Speaker 2: We never really know. He was not charged for murder,
Speaker 2: but that's obviously all people look at him like, you
Speaker 2: can't really get away from that. Now, this is kind
Speaker 2: of crazy. So the parents of Susan, they wanted Kevin
Speaker 2: to pay them every Friday for eighteen years, since she
Speaker 2: was eighteen years old and it happened on a Friday,
Speaker 2: it's and the court approved this punishment so basically, he
Speaker 2: agreed that he would write a one dollar check in
Speaker 2: Susan's name and send it to her family every Friday
Speaker 2: of every week of every month until the year two thousand.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like a sick call.
Speaker 2: It's like the Seinfelds that come where it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: you can't pay your fines, so then you get a butler,
Speaker 2: Like it is like such a weird punishment at the court.
Speaker 1: I've seen this in something else. I've seen it in
Speaker 1: something else. It was like in the magazine covered there
Speaker 1: was Yeah, this was yeah, just but just this idea
Speaker 1: of doing something every week that people are like, you
Speaker 1: don't need the money, and it's like, I want him
Speaker 1: to think about my daughter every week when he writes
Speaker 1: that check. I've seen that play out like on a
Speaker 1: TV show somewhere. So probably based on this, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 2: So after six years of writing the checks, he said
Speaker 2: that it hurt too much to continue, and so then
Speaker 2: he decided to send them twelve years of checks at once,
Speaker 2: and they go, nah, bitch, that's not the point.
Speaker 3: The point you will never forget you killed her daughter.
Speaker 2: And it only adds up to nine hundred and thirty
Speaker 2: six dollars total, but that wasn't the point of this.
Speaker 2: He multiple times did stop or like didn't have time
Speaker 2: or were just too upset, and the parents took him
Speaker 2: to court multiple times on principle. So and when he
Speaker 2: was twenty six, he was found in contempt of court
Speaker 2: and their persistence cost them a lot of money. Like
Speaker 2: they spent thousands in legal fees to force Tunnels to
Speaker 2: send the checks weekly.
Speaker 3: So it was not about the money at all. You know,
Speaker 3: we've put that together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Herzog said they were not at all touched
Speaker 2: by Tunnel's tears on the stand or whatever pain writing
Speaker 2: the checks has caused him. People judge them and are
Speaker 2: like he was seventeen, but they don't care, and it's
Speaker 2: about vengeance and they don't care.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: He then, part of his punishment, spent a year speaking
Speaker 2: to groups about the evils of drunk driving, and then
Speaker 2: he continued to speak to groups for the next six years.
Speaker 2: And then he became like the most famous adolescent drunk
Speaker 2: driver in the land. I don't know if that's what
Speaker 2: you really want to be known for, but he did
Speaker 2: become a very famous drunk driver. And well, and then
Speaker 2: there's like a little twist in the writing of the article,
Speaker 2: and they're like, actually, the most famous repentant drunk driver.
Speaker 2: So yeah, he traveled to auditoriums, talked to high school students,
Speaker 2: adult audiences, and just like talked about the worst night
Speaker 2: of his life and how you know, how to prevent
Speaker 2: being in his shoes because no one would want to
Speaker 2: live as him. He talks about how his friends really
Speaker 2: disappeared and no one wanted to know him anymore. He
Speaker 2: doesn't dwell on it, but he does not make any
Speaker 2: plans on New Year's and he uses that day to
Speaker 2: like reflect and chill. He lives in Arizona as of
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five. I haven't found any current stuff, but
Speaker 2: he works in pr The parents said they have no
Speaker 2: intention of forgiving him the Herzog's second daughter was also
Speaker 2: hit by a drunk driver.
Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 2: It was a crash in Florida that crushed her legs
Speaker 2: and left her with a permanent limp. So they have
Speaker 2: no sympathy for drunk drivers. Gosh, yeah, they don't give
Speaker 2: a fuck. Patricia Herzog became the chairman chairwoman of Mad's
Speaker 2: you know Mother's agoin drunk Drivings Virginia chapter and then
Speaker 2: the dad is an administrator of the National Organization's Eastern region.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 2: So for some reason, that's what the fan wiki thinks
Speaker 2: this episode is based.
Speaker 1: Which is I mean a stretch. I'm glad you told
Speaker 1: us about it, like I ever heard the story, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of stressed. That's interesting. Yeah, today is just
Speaker 1: more story tanging.
Speaker 2: So then I was thinking kind of for the Christmas
Speaker 2: Catholic abuse episode, like maybe I can compile some things
Speaker 2: or find things that didn't inspire the episode but are connected.
Speaker 2: So I was looking for like former professors, crime stories,
Speaker 2: like rehabilitation whatever. I found one juicy, juicy story and
Speaker 2: we're going to.
Speaker 1: Go through it.
Speaker 2: But I also just found some professors I can highlight,
Speaker 2: and there's a few out there. But Jason sol He
Speaker 2: was once a felon and now a Minnesota criminal justice
Speaker 2: professor at Hamlin University in Saint Paul. He believes that
Speaker 2: policing in and of itself is bad for our health
Speaker 2: and the main fucked up problem of the world.
Speaker 3: He grew up in Chicago. He was young during the
Speaker 3: War on Drugs, He.
Speaker 2: Got involved in gangs, he got shot, he got arrested,
Speaker 2: got sent to jail, got out, and got a PhD.
Speaker 2: His focus is to have students imagine what it feels
Speaker 2: like to like.
Speaker 3: So his story is basically, he.
Speaker 2: Got a gun pulled on him, and then he got
Speaker 2: a gun to protect himself, and then he got caught
Speaker 2: with that gun, and at nineteen years of age, he
Speaker 2: got sent away and now is a felon forever, and
Speaker 2: your whole world shrinks when you're a felon. And now
Speaker 2: he's forty three, is a college professor, but he still
Speaker 2: lives in the shadow of a criminal record that's almost
Speaker 2: two decades long. And even though his troubles with the
Speaker 2: law long passed. In Minnesota, they don't really make it
Speaker 2: easy to move past your offenses. Soul has three nonviolent
Speaker 2: felonies on his record, two for drug possession and one
Speaker 2: for the handgun when he was nineteen, and he wants
Speaker 2: his record clear, so he's begging for a pardon. He's
Speaker 2: applied to the Minnesota Board of Pardons that requires this
Speaker 2: is interesting. The governor, the Attorney General, and the Chief
Speaker 2: Justice of the Supreme Court all have to agree on
Speaker 2: the pardon, and then your pardoned. And this happens one
Speaker 2: third of the time.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: But then I read a bunch of comments, and some
Speaker 2: people don't love him being a professor. Was The comments
Speaker 2: were that he's too indoctrinating, and it's stuff and he
Speaker 2: doesn't really teach and he just wants his story. But
Speaker 2: it could also be people that I don't know. Yeah, controversial.
Speaker 2: Jose Boo is another man who went from sitting in
Speaker 2: a prison cell to standing in front of a classroom.
Speaker 2: Jose served twelve years in Massachusetts for drug trafficking, and
Speaker 2: while serving his time, he got an English degree from
Speaker 2: Boston University. Oh yeah, they have a thing and I
Speaker 2: learned something here that will be interesting, I think to
Speaker 2: our listeners. But after his release in twenty eleven, he
Speaker 2: got a master's degree in criminal justice from BU.
Speaker 3: Now he's in his forties.
Speaker 2: He was an instructor at Holyoak Community College for a
Speaker 2: long time and now he works at Holyoak Public Schools.
Speaker 2: And I didn't know this at all, But Bill Clinton
Speaker 2: signed a crime bill. I didn't know about that. So
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton signed a crime bill that we all know about,
Speaker 2: but I didn't know this part that it made people
Speaker 2: in prison ineligible for pelgramts and so by cutting funding
Speaker 2: the laws squatched a ton of existing college prison programs.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so fucked up. I've heard about this crime bill.
Speaker 1: People really hate him for it, and I know he
Speaker 1: took away a lot of like free lunch programs and
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff.
Speaker 3: But this sucks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really fucking sucks.
Speaker 2: And Jose's like, I wasn't a bad kid. I just
Speaker 2: wanted to smoke weed with my friends. I didn't go
Speaker 2: to school, so then I dropped out in tenth grade,
Speaker 2: and then you know, shoplifting turned into drug trafficking, and
Speaker 2: then he was spent twelve years in federal lockup, and
Speaker 2: he remembers thinking, you're not going to do this to me.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to let you turn me into an animal.
Speaker 2: I'm going to be normal when I get out. And
Speaker 2: that path became possible for him when he was transferred
Speaker 2: to a medium security prison in eastern Massachusetts, which had
Speaker 2: this college program through Boston University.
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
Speaker 3: It is amazing.
Speaker 2: And so I found a couple other stories, someone in
Speaker 2: New York who's a professor, and yeah, there are people
Speaker 2: that are able to do it. It just sucks that
Speaker 2: our system makes it super hard. But when you have
Speaker 2: people that are stabler like that don't believe that you
Speaker 2: can change. It's fucked. But so many of these people,
Speaker 2: it's like they're products of their upbringing in there like environment,
Speaker 2: and it does seem fucked to be seventeen and put
Speaker 2: away for like, you know, twelve years. But yeah, also
Speaker 2: in the episode, Vega did kill someone. So okay, now
Speaker 2: we're going to do another crime that has nothing to
Speaker 2: do with anything. Ready, guys, Okay, this is super interesting
Speaker 2: and it's current. It's between twenty nineteen and twenty Like,
Speaker 2: this guy is still in jail awaiting trial, Like this
Speaker 2: is an ongoing case, so I this is going to
Speaker 2: be interesting.
Speaker 3: So this guy's name is Gary Maynard.
Speaker 2: He is a criminology professor who specializes in deviancy and
Speaker 2: he taught in a lot of different places. He was
Speaker 2: like an adjunct professor. And we'll learn more about it
Speaker 2: as I go on. But you being an adjunct and
Speaker 2: I guess sucks.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't think you get like any benefits. Like
Speaker 1: my mom is an adjunct professor at Columbia. She doesn't
Speaker 1: do anything at Columbia. She just like they have her
Speaker 1: on their list, like they could bring her in if
Speaker 1: they wanted to my brother in law.
Speaker 2: Is he likes it, but it's not as full time gig,
Speaker 2: Like he just enjoys teaching and the class he does
Speaker 2: it to Paul, Yeah, shout out. But so anyway, So
Speaker 2: he taught at Santa Clara, Chapman and Sonoma State University.
Speaker 1: We know a bunch of people who went to Chapman,
Speaker 1: do we really? Yeah? Who? Emily Tayler's husband and Haynah
Speaker 1: Einbinder went there, and I feel like someone else, but yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, because they're both California kids. Yeah, CALLI kids.
Speaker 2: So he drove out of the Lumberjacks restaurant parking lot
Speaker 2: on Tuesday in August of twenty twenty one, and he
Speaker 2: drove past the town and then left the small city
Speaker 2: of Susanville in the northeastern corner of California, according to
Speaker 2: the New York Times, and then he headed up a
Speaker 2: steep highway into the Sierra Nevada, where he set the
Speaker 2: forest ablaze going back. So they say that he was
Speaker 2: super obsessed with like, he was super obsessed with Jonestown,
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventy eight massacre, and he wrote tons of
Speaker 2: articles about Jim Jones and he was just very into
Speaker 2: like narcissists, cults, divia like control, and he just got
Speaker 2: very into jonestown. Former students describe him as anxious, troubled,
Speaker 2: and inappropriate.
Speaker 1: Okay, so not good.
Speaker 2: One student said he appeared vaguely psychotic in her evaluation
Speaker 2: at the end of class and that he mostly ranted
Speaker 2: about celebrities and tech company founders. Oh, he's a classic case.
Speaker 2: He just straight up lost it during the pandemic. I
Speaker 2: think he suffered through mental illness and like some fucked
Speaker 2: up shit, and then the pandemic truly broke him.
Speaker 1: He would teach on Zoom in a dark.
Speaker 2: Bedroom and revealed he had a sick father, he had
Speaker 2: a lawsuit against him from a former landlord. He was
Speaker 2: struggling with his mental health. He was very open with that.
Speaker 2: He ended up living in his car, and according to
Speaker 2: former roommate turned lover Kate, who did not want to
Speaker 2: use her last name at all, said that he would
Speaker 2: beat the shit out of his room with a hammer
Speaker 2: and there were dimples in the floor and gashes in
Speaker 2: the walls and he was just like kind of violent
Speaker 2: and unhinged, but she loved him.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was loved, but they were fucking.
Speaker 2: I think they were both lonely and fucking during the pandemic.
Speaker 2: But they were roommates and she owned this house and
Speaker 2: she was doing well, and it started as a friendship
Speaker 2: and then I don't know, shit happened. So she couldn't
Speaker 2: understand how he had a PhD and three master's degrees
Speaker 2: but then would be in and out of homelessness and
Speaker 2: sleep in offices and shower at the university jym locker room.
Speaker 3: So it didn't really make sense to her.
Speaker 2: So then during the pandemic, he started sending unhinged rantings
Speaker 2: and YouTube video links to his students, who then notified
Speaker 2: the school that he seemed not well, and then his
Speaker 2: contract was not renewed. It wasn't just the pandemic that
Speaker 2: caused his life to become hard. He had a hard
Speaker 2: upbringing in Ohio, where he said to New York Magazine
Speaker 2: that he grew up in the midst of a rampant,
Speaker 2: soulless abuse and was molested by two different people, and
Speaker 2: learning in school acted as a reprieve from the empty,
Speaker 2: loveless environment of abuse that he faced. He does seem
Speaker 2: smart when you read this quote, like those are big words.
Speaker 1: I don't know, sure smart, he's just like was not
Speaker 1: getting the help he needed.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, but he also committed this is like twisted.
Speaker 2: So basically his car was found near another fire. There
Speaker 2: was like the Dixie Blaze. Do you remember this? Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was like the biggest fire. So that kind of
Speaker 2: like he was starting fires around this Dixie Blaze. So
Speaker 2: the Dixie Blaze was like stuper and that's why that
Speaker 2: and because he's a criminology professor, like that's why this
Speaker 2: became such a big news story, like the interests behind
Speaker 2: it all. But this Dixie fire, why did you call
Speaker 2: it Dixie? Didn't we decide that's not a word to use,
Speaker 2: even the chicks change. I thought the chicks had to
Speaker 2: drop it. I don't know why they called it that.
Speaker 2: And it was like in California.
Speaker 1: There's not anything really dixieish about California, but I don't know.
Speaker 2: No, So the Dixie Blaze was like it's the second
Speaker 2: biggest fire in California's history, and it burnt over a
Speaker 2: million acres and it cost over five hundred four already
Speaker 2: million dollars in government like.
Speaker 3: Costs to put down, Like, so it was a big fire.
Speaker 2: So his car was found near this fire, and then
Speaker 2: later they found the same car tracks near this other fire.
Speaker 3: So they assumed it was this guy.
Speaker 2: So Verizon, which isn't this illegal, but sent coordinates for
Speaker 2: their phone's location every fifteen minutes to the agents so
Speaker 2: they could track his movements. The investigators tracked Maynard's movements
Speaker 2: using other stuff too, like his food stamp transactions, phone records,
Speaker 2: and they put a device. They attached a device to
Speaker 2: his car in the Lumberjacks parking lot. And I just
Speaker 2: want to eat at Lumberjacks.
Speaker 1: I want a fucking Mountain Diner pancake meal right now.
Speaker 1: Oh and that there was like a full like TV
Speaker 1: moment of like someone walking out, like looking both ways
Speaker 1: and then sticking a little tracker underneath his car.
Speaker 2: Interesting, it is very interesting. So local police worked with them.
Speaker 2: So the local police pulled him over for a traffic violation,
Speaker 2: and then a forest service agent sneaked up and stuck
Speaker 2: an electronic beacon under his car. Oh okay, so very
Speaker 2: TV like you said. So they followed him into the
Speaker 2: lastin National Forest where he set three additional fires off
Speaker 2: and then he was arrested. During the time he was
Speaker 2: driving into this giant Dixie fire and was starting fires
Speaker 2: and like breathe like he loved trees, and he was
Speaker 2: texting Kate a bunch and he wrote to her, I
Speaker 2: am with the trees as they go, I will go.
Speaker 2: It is wrong and existentially wrong that they burn and
Speaker 2: die because of people.
Speaker 3: So he did love trees.
Speaker 2: He had like a love affair of trees, but then
Speaker 2: did burn that.
Speaker 3: I think he truly needed help.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because like you're saying, it's like wrong that they're
Speaker 1: being burned because the people, and then you're burning them.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, not making a ton of sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So when he was arrested and brought in on August,
Speaker 2: Heaven prosecutors alleged that he was super violent, kicking his
Speaker 2: cell door shouting at a sheriff deputy, I'm going to
Speaker 2: kill you, you fucking pig, and then I just wanted
Speaker 2: to say.
Speaker 3: That, But Maynard said, I never said kill.
Speaker 1: I just said I would sue them, So that's what, Okay,
Speaker 1: he just but not denying that he called them pigs,
Speaker 1: which is fun. Whatever you say, Gary, whatever you say.
Speaker 1: He says that he is not dumb or a criminal,
Speaker 1: and definitely not dumb enough to start a fire where
Speaker 1: his car was stuck, because when his car was first
Speaker 1: found at this Dixie fire, it was like wedged, and
Speaker 1: so he was just like, why would I start fires
Speaker 1: where my car was wedged?
Speaker 2: And it's like, I don't know. You also are in
Speaker 2: love with the trees. Now what's interesting? So this giant
Speaker 2: Dixie fire was accidentally started by PG and E, which
Speaker 2: is the company from Aaron Brockovich. With all the water poisoning, Yeah,
Speaker 2: why is PG and he still in business?
Speaker 1: I think that's like big We're fucking I think that's
Speaker 1: California's like, that's like con d Man. That's like a
Speaker 1: big ass company that like controls our power grid.
Speaker 3: They started the biggest fire ever.
Speaker 1: It was. It's like what the fuck is this company
Speaker 1: up to?
Speaker 2: But yeah, like I said, so the like because the
Speaker 2: fire was so big and his like job as a
Speaker 2: criminology professor. The New York Times put it on the
Speaker 2: front page and the headline was expert on criminal minds
Speaker 2: is accused of wildlife arson.
Speaker 1: Spree so fun.
Speaker 2: He rejects any psychological interpretation of his interests in social deviance.
Speaker 2: He also self diagnosed himself with aspergers, but says that
Speaker 2: non Asperger. People live in a world dumbed down, with
Speaker 2: dumb down delusions and lies covered in formal conventions where
Speaker 2: they don't speak their mind. And he said that to
Speaker 2: New York magazine Unhinged. That's kind of a smart point.
Speaker 2: We are all lying to each other and ourselves constantly
Speaker 2: fully delusional, and people with Aspergers are just like I
Speaker 2: don't like you AnyWho, but most like most criminals, he
Speaker 2: had a past of crimes against women. He was let
Speaker 2: go from a university in Tennessee after allegations from a student,
Speaker 2: and later was accused of strangling that student in the
Speaker 2: streets of Ohio in the middle of the day in
Speaker 2: May seventh, twenty fifteen. He was arrested after five witnesses
Speaker 2: reported the choking, and he pled down to a misdemeanor
Speaker 2: and was given a sentence of sixty days in jail.
Speaker 2: But these things were not checked by all his places
Speaker 2: of employment because he was mostly hired as an adjunct
Speaker 2: to teach one class a semester for like five grand,
Speaker 2: so his past fell through the cracks, so no one
Speaker 2: really checked on his crimes. But and then contingent faculty
Speaker 2: members are known as quotes freeway flyers because they move
Speaker 2: around and often work at several schools at once to
Speaker 2: make ends meet.
Speaker 1: Even though Maynard said he.
Speaker 2: Was poor, but he was happy he was free, and
Speaker 2: he believes he is innocent of any crime. He stands
Speaker 2: by that he loves trees and is one with the
Speaker 2: trees and would never hurt the trees. As of an
Speaker 2: article from July twenty twenty two, right very current, he
Speaker 2: has been sitting in jail as he awaits trial, and
Speaker 2: he has pleaded not guilty and that he has been miscast.
Speaker 2: Each charge of arson to federal property carries a potential
Speaker 2: sentence of five to twenty years, and he said to
Speaker 2: a reporter in New York magazine that incarceration, if I
Speaker 2: wasn't in the middle of it, would be very fascinating,
Speaker 2: because you know of his sociology. He does like that
Speaker 2: he sees trees out the window of his Nevada cell.
Speaker 2: He's in a cell in Nevada City, and he's sociology
Speaker 2: for life. So his prison sociology, he's focusing on gang's
Speaker 2: ethnic clicks and its hierarchies, and its petty injustices and
Speaker 2: methods of control. And he also talks about the spirits
Speaker 2: that are in the prison with him, one of which
Speaker 2: is River Phoenix. Huh, and he believes he will be exonerated.
Speaker 2: Exoneration is going to be tough, though, because the FBI
Speaker 2: were able to crack into his locked iPhone and there's
Speaker 2: a lot of video evidence and just some overall facts.
Speaker 2: I guess ten percent of wildfires every year are set
Speaker 2: on purpose, according to the California CalFire, which is the
Speaker 2: state's largest fire agency.
Speaker 1: And when arsen is for.
Speaker 2: Insurance money or revenge, we can recognize a criminal impulse.
Speaker 2: But when a fire is set just like to nature,
Speaker 2: just to watch the world burn, that's, in quotes, a
Speaker 2: stranger kind of animal, more confusing to study. I guess
Speaker 2: a classic arsenist general profile is a lone white male,
Speaker 2: eighteen to thirty four, poorly educated, angry, disenfranchised, fascinated with
Speaker 2: police and military, sexually dysfunctional, heavy drinker, and lol ed.
Speaker 2: Nord Skog, former Sheriff Department detective and arson investigators, said
Speaker 2: to New York Magazine that it also describes everyone he's
Speaker 2: ever worked with in law enforcement.
Speaker 3: And he's from the inside.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, and then but nine out of ten fires
Speaker 1: are straight up accidents. But from human activity, and then yeah,
Speaker 1: like cigarettes and like campfires and yeah so and then
Speaker 1: ten percent are like true. Arson.
Speaker 2: Arson and Maynard's final quote in New York Magazine profile
Speaker 2: is I wish the trees were on the jury because
Speaker 2: they would equit me. Now did they find I wondered,
Speaker 2: did they find any like accelerant or like anything?
Speaker 1: Did he just like go and drop a match? I mean,
Speaker 1: did they find anything that he used to like set
Speaker 1: the fires, because.
Speaker 3: Like, so fuck, I'm sure they did. I didn't care,
Speaker 3: but I'm sure.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I'm not trying to say like you
Speaker 1: didn't find something. I'm just kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess he can argue in court wrong place, wrong
Speaker 1: time a bunch of times or not really because like
Speaker 1: they had to have found what he'd used. I feel bad.
Speaker 1: This man needs to go. He needs to plead not
Speaker 1: guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. So yeah,
Speaker 1: the fires he's been charged with is the Cascade fire,
Speaker 1: which just reminds me of every time we okay, we
Speaker 1: can't sing, but do you know that song?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think that that singer's name is Cascata.
Speaker 3: Shut up. And then so that was July twentieth.
Speaker 2: July twenty first was the Everett fire, and then August
Speaker 2: seventh was this ranch fire, and then the Conrad fire
Speaker 2: was August seventh.
Speaker 1: Let's see how he did it.
Speaker 2: My confusion is, I wonder why none of the resources
Speaker 2: I found said how he started the fire.
Speaker 3: Do you think it's to not give people ideas or something?
Speaker 1: Maybe, yeah, because it's like he set like successful fires, right,
Speaker 1: there must have been some kind of like accelerate or
Speaker 1: maybe not. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's one super super famous forensic files where
Speaker 2: like after this guy was arrested, fires went down from
Speaker 2: like one hundred to three a year, Like he was
Speaker 2: legit setting hundreds of fires a year and he was
Speaker 2: like part of the fire department. But arsenists, like they
Speaker 2: don't they don't get caught so easy. Like it seems
Speaker 2: like for every three someone gets caught with they've set
Speaker 2: like dozens of fires. Yeah, Like arsenists just like love
Speaker 2: love it and yeah, and besides weird men, I think
Speaker 2: the next big cause of big level fires are gender
Speaker 2: reveal parties. Yeah, yes, but those people are facing jail
Speaker 2: charges and in charge.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I hope they fucking rotten jail for a
Speaker 3: little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so weird.
Speaker 2: That's another thing that's like what I've was talking about
Speaker 2: earlier in the episode, where it's like people cling to
Speaker 2: these things that are not even traditions, Like why is
Speaker 2: everyone doing gender reveals? Where did that come from? And
Speaker 2: why are people so glued to it? It's not real.
Speaker 1: It's not definitely tied to social media. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: like another party people want to have around having a kid.
Speaker 1: Like it's social media is showing off like different creative
Speaker 1: ways you can do something. It's TikTok, you know, like
Speaker 1: that's it. I mean this didn't exist like five years,
Speaker 1: like ten years ago. There we're like not gender reveal parties.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 3: It's just weird that we just accept it.
Speaker 2: I always say I think about bachelorette parties too, where
Speaker 2: it's like it used to be like oh, one fun
Speaker 2: night out, and now it's like we're going to Brazil
Speaker 2: get a matching hat. Okay, listen, we're going to our interview.
Speaker 2: We could talk forever that information.
Speaker 3: Liza.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you got to interview. I mean I appreciate
Speaker 1: you researching like five cases, so thank you. Well, I
Speaker 1: had to mismatch something.
Speaker 2: It would be weird if I just talked about one
Speaker 2: teen drunk driver, like I just I don't understand how
Speaker 2: that even got into the wiki. But I'm glad I
Speaker 2: learned about Gary Maynard because this is also a case
Speaker 2: that we could all follow it together since the trial
Speaker 2: has not even happened, and we'll see what happens to him.
Speaker 3: But but he has a public defender.
Speaker 2: He's poor, Yeah, so I don't know if he's gonna
Speaker 2: even be able to like have a great defense of
Speaker 2: like this man.
Speaker 1: Let him get on the stand and he goes. I
Speaker 1: love the trees. The trees are with me. I mean,
Speaker 1: how are we not doing mental disease or defect? Like
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: And along's in an institute not in approval like and
Speaker 2: God from starting fires is bad And obviously he has
Speaker 2: done violence before in the past, but no one physically
Speaker 2: was harmed, and so I don't feel that bad saying
Speaker 2: that he deserves some sort of support, right, But the
Speaker 2: New York Magazine profile was very very good if you
Speaker 2: want like an in depth thing, and there's more information
Speaker 2: from Kate and about all of his weird behaviors.
Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, thank you, Stay tuned everyone, We'll be back
Speaker 1: with a great interview. This week's guest is a comedian,
Speaker 1: an actor, a writer who many of you have seen
Speaker 1: in a slew of Fantastic Disney live action movies in
Speaker 1: the nineties, Operation Dumbo, Drop that Darn Cat. Maybe you've
Speaker 1: heard of a little movie called Cool Runnings. And you
Speaker 1: may also recognize him as the voice of Bernie in
Speaker 1: Shark Tale. But today you know him as Rudy lem Key. Guys,
Speaker 1: check out our really amazing talk with Dougie Doug.
Speaker 3: We're so excited.
Speaker 2: I'm actually at a festival in Montreal right now, and
Speaker 2: at breakfast I told everyone we were interviewing you, and
Speaker 2: they got jealous and excited.
Speaker 5: The Canadians, come on.
Speaker 3: They were pumped.
Speaker 5: That's great.
Speaker 1: Are you in New York right now?
Speaker 5: I am, yes, And.
Speaker 3: You've lived there your whole life?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I lived other places, but I'm born
Speaker 4: and raised in New York.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 2: So was SVU a big deal since you were a
Speaker 2: New York guy to get into the Dick Wolf universe?
Speaker 4: Oh my god, yes, because you know, as a New
Speaker 4: York actor, the whole idea is.
Speaker 5: To get in the Dick universe.
Speaker 4: And hopefully you can stay in the Dick Wolves universe,
Speaker 4: but as long as you can so. But that was
Speaker 4: during a period where it was just kind of like,
Speaker 4: you know, had a lot of downtime, and I was like, man,
Speaker 4: I'd like to work locally because you know, I had
Speaker 4: small children and so forth. So it was perfect too,
Speaker 4: and that began obviously a lot of different wolf stuff.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, he's got a lot of things going on.
Speaker 1: So it's like very much. But so you got you,
Speaker 1: we saw like doing some research on you that you
Speaker 1: got started like doing stand up. Yes at seventeen, Yes,
Speaker 1: that's exacting. We're both stand ups.
Speaker 5: Oh cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was being at the Apollo as a teen, ticnic, treacherous.
Speaker 4: You said, yes, well, you know there's certain you know,
Speaker 4: like every room has its tricks, as you as I'm
Speaker 4: sure you all know it's.
Speaker 5: Dudes, and don't you know. And so there's a.
Speaker 4: Particular you know ethic associating with the Apollo.
Speaker 5: Has to do it.
Speaker 4: Hit them hard, hit them fast, or you will go
Speaker 4: down the dark path of humiliation. Wow.
Speaker 2: As a New York person, you know, usually everyone it's
Speaker 2: always the negatives of like, well this has changed, and
Speaker 2: that's changed and it used to be like this, and
Speaker 2: I liked it better there. What are things that you
Speaker 2: that have changed that you're like, I like this, this
Speaker 2: is nice.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, neighborhoods that used to be completely filled
Speaker 4: with the destruction and criminality only have less of it.
Speaker 4: And yeah, so New York is scrubbed up. Well, let's
Speaker 4: just face it compared to the eighties. Yeah, so I
Speaker 4: welcome even you know some of the things that people
Speaker 4: complain about that has come as a result of cleaning
Speaker 4: it up. I'm like, just clean it up, please, And
Speaker 4: so I'm happy about that.
Speaker 2: And was it cool to shoot in New York, like
Speaker 2: on the streets and stuff?
Speaker 1: They rested? Yeah? Was that fun?
Speaker 5: Yeah? They I think they arrested me in a homeless shelter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in this episode, but that is your other, your
Speaker 1: other episode where you're driving Richard kind around. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you got you're you're on the streets and that one.
Speaker 5: That's true.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And we and we shot at the airport. I
Speaker 4: had to pick them up from the airport as an attach.
Speaker 5: That was cool. I didn't even know people were allowed
Speaker 5: to do that in New York.
Speaker 1: I didn't either.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's well, that's a Dick wolf Power. I guess
Speaker 4: he's like Oports. So I was like, wow, this is cool.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, it's always great shooting on the streets
Speaker 4: of New York, you know, because people.
Speaker 5: Are nonplussed or or they're you know.
Speaker 4: They're really like, you know, uh in your face either
Speaker 4: or like.
Speaker 3: And how was that interrogation scene intense?
Speaker 4: The thing the scene I liked the most about the
Speaker 4: interrogation scene was cool because because I.
Speaker 5: See it was in the scene. I see it was
Speaker 5: just kind of.
Speaker 4: Like in between takes, was just like talking about in
Speaker 4: jail and.
Speaker 5: You know, see in jail culture.
Speaker 4: He's like I guess he's like a guru of the
Speaker 4: underground or some kind. So he was telling us about
Speaker 4: the nuances of jail culture and the dudes and don't
Speaker 4: and I said wow, and then they were like okay.
Speaker 5: Actually they started grilling.
Speaker 4: So it was really fascinating, you know, being in a
Speaker 4: scene with him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see it had an amazing podcast for a while,
Speaker 1: and he was very in He is a pursuer of knowledge,
Speaker 1: like he really does, like want to know about news
Speaker 1: and like he I remember he had an author on
Speaker 1: who had written all these best selling books from prison
Speaker 1: and like, so, I think he definitely tries to like
Speaker 1: know about that culture and like you know, amplify those
Speaker 1: voices and stuff. But he's he's definitely a smart dude.
Speaker 5: He is brilliant guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one day we'll meet him.
Speaker 2: How did you get into character? I mean it's like
Speaker 2: kind of a tough role to play someone kind of
Speaker 2: shaken about and being bullied.
Speaker 5: You know, I'm accustomed to that.
Speaker 4: My whole childhood had information that I could draw from.
Speaker 5: Growing up in New York being bullied. Yes, that was.
Speaker 4: Like totally Uh, I guess that that was my entire
Speaker 4: adolescent shaken up.
Speaker 5: Yes, that was it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I really like the way you played this character though,
Speaker 1: because you could tell the guys like down On is
Speaker 1: lucky struggling with addiction. But you're not playing it like crazy,
Speaker 1: Like you're not you're not Overwrow, You're not like scratching
Speaker 1: and going nuts, you know, like you're just kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, you were like I remember when I was
Speaker 1: watching it, I was like, wait, did this guy have
Speaker 1: anything to do with it? But I feel bad for him,
Speaker 1: you know, you're really kind of Yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Was trying to mask symptoms, which is I think is
Speaker 4: what people really do as opposed to expose it. All right,
Speaker 4: It's kind of like acting from the inside out. You know,
Speaker 4: when people are gesticulating, they are acting from the outside in.
Speaker 4: So it's more about what's going on inside.
Speaker 5: And what your behavior su yest.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I hate to be you know, I don't
Speaker 4: want to be too intellectual about it, but you.
Speaker 5: Know what I mean, or too processing.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: And what I love about SVU is like it is
Speaker 2: cop Ganda at a certain degree, but then they do
Speaker 2: show that cops do bad things. And I feel like
Speaker 2: that scene was very much like, yeah, this shit happens,
Speaker 2: and it's messed up that they are putting like trying
Speaker 2: to pin you on a crime that you didn't do,
Speaker 2: and they didn't care that if you did or didn't
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I said a lot small scene but said so much.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think all the episodes that I've done in
Speaker 4: this particular universe, I'm feel grateful to have been a
Speaker 4: part of because they did they were nuanced portrayals and
Speaker 4: new and nuanced stories.
Speaker 5: They weren't just sort of like you know, that shitty
Speaker 5: Blue Blood.
Speaker 6: So I'm sorry, it's like, you know, like.
Speaker 4: Oh my my people, we need so much help help us.
Speaker 1: Do you remember anything like about working with like Marisco
Speaker 1: or christ.
Speaker 5: Is unforgettable? Uh.
Speaker 4: She is probably one of the most spiritually attractive women
Speaker 4: that I've ever met in my life outside.
Speaker 5: Of my wife.
Speaker 1: And what spiritually spiritually attractive? I love definition not.
Speaker 4: Somebody just has a vibe where it's just like, damn,
Speaker 4: she's She makes me want to walk a lady across
Speaker 4: the street or some ship.
Speaker 5: I want to be decent, a.
Speaker 4: Profound decency that the woman and I actually actually in
Speaker 4: that in the scene where we were, uh where where
Speaker 4: I get where I get assaulted or whatever or caught
Speaker 4: by the police, She's the one who wrestles me to
Speaker 4: the ground, And that was very hard to me to
Speaker 4: like play like.
Speaker 5: I was disturbed by this. I was like, We're gonna
Speaker 5: have to do another take because I don't think that
Speaker 5: was gonna take en up. Please. But yeah, I enjoyed
Speaker 5: working with her, to say the least. But uh yeah,
Speaker 5: Chris was good too. He was good too.
Speaker 2: That's actually how most of these go people are, Like
Speaker 2: Marishka light of my life.
Speaker 3: The most gorgeous in and out funny the set is hers.
Speaker 1: He was stretching in the corner exactly, professional, great actor
Speaker 1: doing deep squats, like that's all we hear.
Speaker 5: Exactly.
Speaker 1: It doesn't move fast.
Speaker 2: Sorry, oh no, but like it moved fast, Like how
Speaker 2: many takes did you do of the like the stunt.
Speaker 5: Might have been too and they were like good enough,
Speaker 5: let's go.
Speaker 4: Wow, But that makes sense, you know in our procedural drama,
Speaker 4: you know they gotta move.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we hear it's fast.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's not. You know, there's a lot of
Speaker 4: frustration if you're if you're not even missed your lot,
Speaker 4: it's a lot of like you feel like your life
Speaker 4: is going to be threatened.
Speaker 5: It's like, I'm sorry, we'll do it again. You know.
Speaker 4: They don't have the luxury, which I understand like sitcoms
Speaker 4: or something.
Speaker 5: We have another take, it's.
Speaker 4: A live audience or whatever, right, right, So you guys
Speaker 4: are really into this show.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, that's why I was like, oh you
Speaker 1: were outside, Like we're probably watching like five six episodes
Speaker 1: at a time where we're doing full analysis, researching the crimes. Prep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of a lot of crimes.
Speaker 4: Full confession. My daughter who was a child at the time.
Speaker 4: I mean maybe when she's about nine or ten. She
Speaker 4: found this show and ended up being watching this show.
Speaker 4: I thought that we needed therapy seriously, and come to
Speaker 4: find out, she was really interested in the rights of
Speaker 4: people who needed to be defended, who were voiceless, and
Speaker 4: she ended up being a very very compassionate person and
Speaker 4: a crusader for rights, and she really really wanted to
Speaker 4: meet Mariska.
Speaker 5: She was she's that's her favorite actress, by the way,
Speaker 5: So it might be one day I could arrange it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, you got to get back on SVU.
Speaker 1: If you came back, who would you play?
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I'd play anything on that show definitely, but would I
Speaker 4: would definitely do it simply to make Mariska say hello
Speaker 4: to my daughter.
Speaker 5: Motivation would Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny we hear that a lot people
Speaker 1: are like, this show made me become a forensic scientist.
Speaker 1: This show got me into the law. Like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting that you know she felt that way because
Speaker 1: the show a lot of times makes defense attorneys look
Speaker 1: really bad and makes like the prosecutors look like the heroes.
Speaker 1: And but it's like people, he's not basic. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: saw past that. She saw past that.
Speaker 4: Yes, and also and also I think that riscus passion
Speaker 4: to defend vulnerable yes, girls and so forth is very
Speaker 4: resonant among young women. You know, yeah, like somebody needs
Speaker 4: to get in the middle of this crap, so.
Speaker 1: She'll do it, like you know, yeah, and always always
Speaker 1: believing victims and stuff. Yeah, she's definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Are your kids interested in like acting in artistic pursuits
Speaker 2: or not at all?
Speaker 4: Oh god, no, well my daughter, my son is definitely.
Speaker 4: So that's we're gonna we're gonna work that out of
Speaker 4: him shortly.
Speaker 2: Now, I do have to ask, how often are people
Speaker 2: coming up to you yelling cool runnings.
Speaker 5: Every day of my life?
Speaker 1: What I thought?
Speaker 4: Yes, that and an assortment of other film related quotes
Speaker 4: in that movie you know You're dead, you know, all
Speaker 4: sorts of different things, Yes, ye.
Speaker 2: More And then is that more than cause like, so
Speaker 2: cool running is number one? That's like what people approach
Speaker 2: you for.
Speaker 4: Yes, and one of approached me for a lot of
Speaker 4: different things, but mostly cool Runnings. Yes, definitely, that is.
Speaker 4: That's obviously enduring, you know for generally we.
Speaker 2: Watched it in school, Yes, that was the first time
Speaker 2: I saw it. Was like in school, a.
Speaker 5: Lot of people tell me that that and.
Speaker 1: Wow, like it's educational viewing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've heard shown in a lot of places, like
Speaker 4: it was.
Speaker 5: A big favorite in jail. Apparently it was one of
Speaker 5: the things they could agree on.
Speaker 4: To watch because you know, there's you know, there's a
Speaker 4: lot of people fighting over one television.
Speaker 5: So I've heard that a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, did you how did you make your jump
Speaker 1: from like stand up as a teen into acting? Were
Speaker 1: you always gonna did you always know you wanted to
Speaker 1: do that? Or were you like, did stand up lead
Speaker 1: to that? Or were you a theater kid? Yeah?
Speaker 5: No, I was not as well. I didn't perform in theater,
Speaker 5: but I wouldn't call myself a theater kid.
Speaker 4: I would uh in high school productions and stuff.
Speaker 5: I got kicked out of the drama club.
Speaker 4: For foolishness bad boy basically, but I but I.
Speaker 5: But the principal of my school recognized that a pension
Speaker 5: for for being.
Speaker 4: Comically disruptive, and he said, okay, well, he set aside
Speaker 4: assemblings for me to just have minutes basically minutes, you know,
Speaker 4: and that I started developing that by by going getting
Speaker 4: on stage during assemblies and entertaining my So he was
Speaker 4: a genius by Paul James Bonnilla.
Speaker 1: God rest his sol That is cool.
Speaker 5: So that's where I got my taste for the stage.
Speaker 5: But I ended up being seen at the Apollo. I
Speaker 5: did this.
Speaker 4: They had a television show show Tomic Paulow at that time,
Speaker 4: I was on a front of pit and so I
Speaker 4: got sow by a lot of seen by a lot
Speaker 4: of people there. I did a spike saw me at
Speaker 4: the Apollo and put me in a couple of movies.
Speaker 4: And Russell Simmons at the time was doing a show
Speaker 4: that was produced after the Apollo Show, and it's called
Speaker 4: New Music Report that I wrote and hosted and so forth,
Speaker 4: so and and so most of my work that came
Speaker 4: from there, initially my acting work.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, that's awesome. That's so cool that you had
Speaker 1: a principle that didn't just say like shut up, stop
Speaker 1: being a clown and like actually like fostered your soal
Speaker 1: and send your strengths you.
Speaker 5: Know, yes, yes.
Speaker 4: And I actually had a conversation with some of the
Speaker 4: other Christian brothers years later and they're like, he always.
Speaker 5: Had a had a had an understanding of kids, you know, literally,
Speaker 5: you know, I'm like, yeah, that's the point when you're
Speaker 5: around kids, you should be trying to understand. So, yeah,
Speaker 5: gifted like that.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about In the Weeds? Writing, directing,
Speaker 2: producing in it? Tell us about it?
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm so excited about this movie.
Speaker 4: Myself and a good friend of mine, Clayton Alice, we uh,
Speaker 4: you know, the high of the pandemic happened and we were.
Speaker 5: Sitting around the industry was shut.
Speaker 4: Down, and we said, okay, you know, okay, Mickey, Okay, Judy,
Speaker 4: let's do a movie. So we got all of our
Speaker 4: various friends together, dps, lighting people, actors, actresses and so so,
Speaker 4: and we decided to just kind of like begin just shooting.
Speaker 5: You didn't have a completed script.
Speaker 4: We had just an outline and ifferent ideas that we
Speaker 4: wanted to work out that were resident in terms of
Speaker 4: what we were seeing in terms of people's anguish and
Speaker 4: pain and and and and separation from loved ones, etc.
Speaker 5: Cetera. And we decided, okay, let's just start doing something.
Speaker 5: So we we we improvised.
Speaker 4: First a couple of scenes, and then we went and scripted.
Speaker 4: So we ended up with something that spectacular.
Speaker 5: It's called In the Weeds. And as we all you know,
Speaker 5: we're all in the weeds and after.
Speaker 4: A list crap and uh, hopefully we're we're moving put.
Speaker 5: Moving into it and coming out on.
Speaker 4: The other side healed and enlightened and so forth.
Speaker 5: And so that's really what the movie is about. Playing
Speaker 5: a father was really.
Speaker 4: A strained from his daughter. He's an adult daughter, which
Speaker 4: I am dealing with now.
Speaker 5: And it's I.
Speaker 4: Don't want to I want to hear what's going on,
Speaker 4: but I don't, you know, uh, you guys this that,
Speaker 4: And of course I was I was a guy once,
Speaker 4: so I'm.
Speaker 5: Like, this is a horror story. So it's really.
Speaker 4: About him not being in touch with and a stranger
Speaker 4: and trying to find her and on the outs with her.
Speaker 5: But in the sub story, it subplot is really about
Speaker 5: her and.
Speaker 4: This romance, this young English Indian English transplant from uh
Speaker 4: in London and their love affair.
Speaker 5: And you know, all that, all that stuff that.
Speaker 4: That is upsetting to fathers. But eventually it all resolves itself.
Speaker 4: Somehow we figure out, you know, we learned something about something.
Speaker 4: So it's very it's very mysterious. It deals with with
Speaker 4: healing and the fact that the things that heal us
Speaker 4: right in front of us you know that we were
Speaker 4: fascinated with, like, you know, stuff that grows out of
Speaker 4: the streets and herbs and stuff.
Speaker 5: Like that, and you know, so it's really about trying
Speaker 5: to heal ourselves. That's that's what it is.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. And where can people watch it?
Speaker 5: Right now?
Speaker 4: We're we're placing the film in under festival consideration, so
Speaker 4: we should hear about where it will be in.
Speaker 1: Oh, amazing, amazing, amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what about We're also curious to know about
Speaker 2: your writing career books? Yeah, well, the Fall of nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty seven, the year I was born, No big deal.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, that's sary that I am an a
Speaker 5: ar P member.
Speaker 2: So my parents get air P and I read it
Speaker 2: and I like it. It's a pretty good magazine.
Speaker 5: Fantastic the magazine.
Speaker 2: They wait to have it waiting for me when I
Speaker 2: go visit, and I like it. Liam Neeson was on
Speaker 2: the cover.
Speaker 5: They have great people, great great old people.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But yeah, tell us about your book.
Speaker 2: How is it different than writing and like doing movies
Speaker 2: and TV.
Speaker 3: It seems kind of like a nightmare writing a book.
Speaker 3: It seems hard.
Speaker 5: It's actually it's actually really my chosen profession.
Speaker 4: You know, I started usually stand up you're writing, but
Speaker 4: then you know, I segued into a writer, you know,
Speaker 4: being a head writer of a sketch show called New Musical.
Speaker 4: Like I said, there was produced vir systemis. I've always
Speaker 4: been writing. But then my goal is to is to
Speaker 4: continue to write books, which I love the most because
Speaker 4: it's isolated activity and I'm hard to get.
Speaker 5: Along with, I guess and uh so. And also I'm
Speaker 5: like I said, when we get older, you get time
Speaker 5: of being engaged all the time. You know, this is
Speaker 5: something I can do and I can walk in the
Speaker 5: park and I can do this.
Speaker 4: I don't have to be like, you know, collaborating all
Speaker 4: the time. So it's a nice meditative thing. It's kind
Speaker 4: of it's either write books.
Speaker 5: Or go to the laundry man, you know, one of these.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I love it. The book is great.
Speaker 4: The book is really a sort of an analysis of
Speaker 4: the period of the late eighties in brook In Bedsti.
Speaker 5: Brooklyn, where I grew up.
Speaker 4: You know, all of the greatest people on earth are
Speaker 4: from Jackie Gleeson, uh jay Z you know. But anyway,
Speaker 4: so it's really just about that that that the late
Speaker 4: eighties period was sort of the silver of the post
Speaker 4: civil rights uh so called hip hop generation era and
Speaker 4: the birth of hip hop and so forth and all
Speaker 4: that and uh and it deals with a lot of
Speaker 4: the issues that came up and during that time and
Speaker 4: and uh mostly about the so called pracktic epidemic and
Speaker 4: its impact on people's lives and uh and in some
Speaker 4: cases made people extremely resilient and and and very very
Speaker 4: successful as a result of having gone through the nightmare.
Speaker 5: Of such a thing. It's a great book, if I
Speaker 5: say so myself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you're currently you're currently working on another one.
Speaker 4: Yes, this one is more I guess you could say,
Speaker 4: a more commercial book, so to speak. This one is
Speaker 4: a is the behind the scenes of the greatest Bops
Speaker 4: led movie full Time.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: So so I'm having a lot of fun, right because
Speaker 7: it's a lot of memories about what happened, uh when
Speaker 7: that's said and John Candy of course Britain and.
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, so it's a great it's nice to
Speaker 4: go down memory lane.
Speaker 5: I think people are really really gonna enjoy this this book.
Speaker 5: It's it's this one is a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: While filming that movie, did you guys feel it was
Speaker 2: going to be a hit.
Speaker 4: I didn't know or feel that, but you know, John
Speaker 4: was telling us, Oh yeah, youse.
Speaker 5: These guys don't understand. I'm from Canada. This is big.
Speaker 4: I was there when this happened, and I actually was like,
Speaker 4: you know, is he psychic or something?
Speaker 5: Like what why is he so passionate about I was.
Speaker 4: I had I had a told me with you at
Speaker 4: the time that was on it. It was it was
Speaker 4: a mid season replacement the ABC.
Speaker 5: It was called Where I Lived.
Speaker 4: So I had all my money on that, thinking, yeah,
Speaker 4: when this when Mike told him Joe comes out, it's
Speaker 4: gonna be I'm going to be the best, biggest of
Speaker 4: the book.
Speaker 5: So I was like, okay, I'll also do the Bobs
Speaker 5: that movie too. I was like, oh, man, like the
Speaker 5: thing I guess so no, I did not.
Speaker 1: No, that's so funny. And then yeah, cut to the
Speaker 1: rest of your life. Bob Slut references every day.
Speaker 3: I can't wait for this book. All the secrets.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are a lot of them, a lot of them.
Speaker 5: I'm leaving a little nervous about some of the stories.
Speaker 5: I actually actually am.
Speaker 4: Nervous about how I describe the other guys who played
Speaker 4: in the bobser because it's really just a joke.
Speaker 5: But I but my wife was like, I don't know
Speaker 5: about this because let me let me, let me, let
Speaker 5: me try to test it out on me. I say,
Speaker 5: the guys in the box.
Speaker 4: Of the movie are like prototypical man, but different slices
Speaker 4: of man. Like you know, I said that Roald Lewis,
Speaker 4: who played Junior, it is like one of the nicest man.
Speaker 5: Which you'll ever meet.
Speaker 4: He's so nice that he could actually have a relationship
Speaker 4: with a woman based solely on friendship.
Speaker 5: This is me on the other hand, I'm very nice,
Speaker 5: but not that nice.
Speaker 4: Like I could go out on a date with a
Speaker 4: woman and have a very wonderful, polite conversation, but at
Speaker 4: the end I would say.
Speaker 5: Is that it? You know? That's me? So so uh uh.
Speaker 5: Malik Yova is a fantastic guy, a lot of fun.
Speaker 5: He's the kind of guy that.
Speaker 4: Would go out with a woman, have sexual intercourse and
Speaker 4: yell out her name. Leon on the other hand, also
Speaker 4: fun with women, but he'd have sexual incourses with a
Speaker 4: woman and yell out his own name.
Speaker 5: But on pump. So that's a little slice of you know.
Speaker 3: I think it's appropriate.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's that I don't think it's a
Speaker 2: crossing the line.
Speaker 5: Okay, Okay, that's funny. It's really just these are like
Speaker 5: my brother so it's Josh.
Speaker 3: But are you still friends?
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yes, yeah, I'm all of them. We were
Speaker 4: all together about a month ago. Yeah, so it's always
Speaker 4: great when we get together.
Speaker 5: It's always Yeah, it's always weird because people like there's
Speaker 5: the bob Sled people.
Speaker 1: Do you think I know they like trade. They probably
Speaker 1: like gave you some like basic training. Do you think
Speaker 1: you could bob sload?
Speaker 5: I did it once. Yes, I did it.
Speaker 1: Oh and.
Speaker 4: It was really like it's hard to describe, but it's
Speaker 4: like from what I understand, it's like jumping out of
Speaker 4: a plane, which I've never done, but the g forces
Speaker 4: are so like there's so much so it's not like
Speaker 4: a roller coaster.
Speaker 5: It's like jumping.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so intent And yeah I did it once and
Speaker 4: I probably will do it again.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I had to do it once.
Speaker 1: Oh see yeah that's it sounds scary. It's like so fast.
Speaker 1: This was amazing. Yeah, this was an amazing chat. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
Speaker 5: Appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 2: A legend an icon, a star. He would show up
Speaker 2: in a head game.
Speaker 1: He is. I love when you google Dougie Dog though
Speaker 1: that it goes Dougie. Doug is not a retired rapper.
Speaker 1: He's never been a rapper. Like it's just like a
Speaker 1: full you're thinking of someone else. Dougie doug is an actor.
Speaker 1: I just love yeah that he was like, I like
Speaker 1: people that in the Pandemic too, were like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to like make something or you know, use my resources
Speaker 1: that I can. I think that in the Weeds movie
Speaker 1: that he talked about, seems we'll post a link to
Speaker 1: the trailer he sent you to a great idea.
Speaker 3: Yeah, fucking fun cool.
Speaker 2: I love him starting as you know, as a stand
Speaker 2: up is thrilling of forest writing. We keep talking to
Speaker 2: multifaceted people and that's really cool. Yes, yeah, I love
Speaker 2: telling people are about our game. Yes, it's like yeah,
Speaker 2: Lou Diamond Phillips like, who are you? I don't know
Speaker 2: why the people that we get on this spot as why?
Speaker 1: But I love this episode, Like I really thought it
Speaker 1: had like a lot of very interesting themes about like
Speaker 1: can you be rehabilitated? You know, what makes one person's
Speaker 1: mistakes of the past more easy to look over than
Speaker 1: someone else's, you know, like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like when when he called out Cragan was like,
Speaker 2: well you were a fucking alcoholic and you changed, Like
Speaker 2: why am I not.
Speaker 3: Getting the grace?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: You but you know there's murder. I get it. But
Speaker 3: and if it wasn't as it just sucks.
Speaker 2: Like I always hate when the detectives are so dead
Speaker 2: set on something, you know. But he was being set up,
Speaker 2: so it was a thriller. This was like the movie
Speaker 2: The Fugitive, you know, edge of your seat thrilling.
Speaker 1: It was. It was exactly that I'm realizing now. It's
Speaker 1: one of like some of the episodes of the show,
Speaker 1: and some of my favorite ones are set up like movies,
Speaker 1: and this one felt like a movie me, like just
Speaker 1: a full frame job in the end, like and and
Speaker 1: like the whole time I was watching, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah. I was like, this is gonna be one
Speaker 1: where he did do it and he's just denying it.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh no, wait, the daughter
Speaker 1: does it because she doesn't like that he's in love
Speaker 1: with this younger girl. I was like, it's Zoe Saldana.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, I'm completely on the wrong track,
Speaker 1: and I've seen this episode at least three times in
Speaker 1: my life, so I liked that it kept me guessing,
Speaker 1: even on a rewatch, because I, you know, my mind
Speaker 1: is flooded with SVU.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 3: I knew it was that fucking dork. I knew his ass.
Speaker 1: No, even when they were allowing that was wild. The
Speaker 1: likes detail was very good, truly, you're so right, Like
Speaker 1: the Fugitive, I didn't kill my wife, like it's the Fugitive.
Speaker 3: The Fugitive was big in the Tragger Household.
Speaker 1: It's big. I think I saw it with my family
Speaker 1: in the theater.
Speaker 2: It's an important It's one of the top nineties thrillers.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Also for me, CeAl a Ward has always been
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful actress who played his wife.
Speaker 1: And it was in the show's Sisters that I talk
Speaker 1: about all the time because I love and I remember
Speaker 1: just that whole movie. I was like, what is gonna happen?
Speaker 1: And I remember I couldn't believe they turned the river
Speaker 1: green in Chicago for Saint Patrick's Day. That's like where
Speaker 1: I learned about that was the Fugitive.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I forgot where who I was talking to,
Speaker 2: but someone was like Savannah or Charleston, some dumb city
Speaker 2: I don't even remember, but they're like, that has the
Speaker 2: best Saint Patrick's Day in the country. And I was like,
Speaker 2: excuse me, like what are you talking about, Like is
Speaker 2: there even a giant Irish population? And they said that's irrelevant,
Speaker 2: and I go, no, it's not like you cannot say
Speaker 2: that Charleston or whatever city this person said has a
Speaker 2: better Saint Patti's than like a Chicago Boston vibe, Like yeah,
Speaker 2: you just can't. Sorry, I do, Like, Charlton, have your
Speaker 2: parades ever been shut down because the city can't behave
Speaker 2: and the whole city needs to be punished, and so
Speaker 2: the parade gets taken away, Like no, so shut your mouth.
Speaker 1: Like I've never been to Chicago for Saint Patrick's Day,
Speaker 1: but I have been to Boston and South Boston, which
Speaker 1: is like the Irish area, and it was one of
Speaker 1: the craziest things I've ever with, Like.
Speaker 2: I had a regular day once I was waiting in
Speaker 2: line in Boston to get into a bar and someone
Speaker 2: grabbed me by the shoulders and moved me physically over
Speaker 2: twice like.
Speaker 1: It and I stepped on a dying rat that day.
Speaker 1: It was like truly like a wild Boston night. I
Speaker 1: guess a regular Boston night. Yeah, Boston is Yeah. They
Speaker 1: are there at a party for fucking Saint Patrick's Day,
Speaker 1: for sure, but I didn't realize they would move your body.
Speaker 1: But wow, what a day.
Speaker 2: And you know about Dave Matthew's band in the Chicago
Speaker 2: River course, of course?
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god. Do you watch the show? I
Speaker 1: love that for you. Nobody should because Matt Rogers. It's
Speaker 1: funny and it's quick. It's like seven episodes and thirty minutes.
Speaker 1: You gotta watch it. It's fun. I liked it. So
Speaker 1: there's a scene where the comedian Punham Patel, I believe
Speaker 1: she's a comedian, she's also an actor, but she plays
Speaker 1: this character and she goes, I was actually the manager
Speaker 1: of Dave matthews band when they dumped all that shit
Speaker 1: into the Chicago River, and that was actually my call,
Speaker 1: like and it was just like such a funny aside
Speaker 1: for all of us that remember that happening.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine being on a beautiful architectural boat tour
Speaker 2: of downtown Chicago, enjoying your family vacation. Maybe you just
Speaker 2: got engaged. You're on a nice boat ride and then
Speaker 2: shit flowing down on you.
Speaker 1: The shit of the Dave Matthews band though famous shit.
Speaker 1: So you imagine I can't. I can't I do like that.
Speaker 2: In the movie The Breakup, Vince Vaughan's job is like
Speaker 2: tour guide Chicago, because that was a lot of day
Speaker 2: jobs for comedians.
Speaker 3: They did tour guides, all right, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Just wouldn't be able to wake up and go go
Speaker 2: get a trolley driving a trolley around town.
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Yeah, I didn't realize that was
Speaker 1: his job. How do they have such a nice apartment?
Speaker 1: Is it her? She does better than him? Well, it's
Speaker 1: a fam He's not just the tour guide. It's a
Speaker 1: family business. And that's the thing.
Speaker 2: His brother, Vincent's Inafrio is pissed at him, right because
Speaker 2: he's not working hard enough and he has to do
Speaker 2: all the books and then Vince wanas to mature and
Speaker 2: then he does the books.
Speaker 1: Casey, I know, we probably do. I know, we promised
Speaker 1: you we were going to do like like lighter post mortems,
Speaker 1: but we just can't shut the fuck up. Anyway. This
Speaker 1: was a killer episode. I think it's like what I
Speaker 1: learned was a little bit of like, let's yeah, let's
Speaker 1: not pin people's past mistakes on them forever. People can change.
Speaker 1: Let's get into our what would mister Peg do for
Speaker 1: this week, which is our weekly segment where we give
Speaker 1: you an organization, a book, a doc, an article, something
Speaker 1: to just pump up the info you have on whatever
Speaker 1: we talked about in this week's episode. And you know,
Speaker 1: I was taught thinking a lot about like recidivism in prisons,
Speaker 1: and I think Orange is a New Black is a
Speaker 1: show that really like brought that to light for me,
Speaker 1: Like when Tay he gets out and like she cannot function,
Speaker 1: And I was thinking about how this man in this
Speaker 1: episode got out, became a professor, became you know, a lawyer,
Speaker 1: all these things, and that's not everybody's story. So I
Speaker 1: wanted to highlight the Fortune Society, whose mission is to
Speaker 1: support successful re entry from incarceration into you know, regular life,
Speaker 1: I guess if you can call it regular, and to
Speaker 1: promote alternatives to incarceration. They are based in New York City.
Speaker 1: They offer housing, employment services, health services, substance abuse treatment,
Speaker 1: and many other services to recently incarcerated individuals, and they
Speaker 1: are also an advocacy group that pushes to shape policy
Speaker 1: that can restructure the criminal justice system, which if you
Speaker 1: listen to this podcast, it needs a couple of tweaks,
Speaker 1: So for more information go to Fortunessociety dot org.
Speaker 2: That is yeah, Fortunessociety dot org. Thank you so much, Kara,
Speaker 2: and next week we'll be doing it. Sounded like I
Speaker 2: was a morning news reporter and thanks for that for that, Kara.
Speaker 3: Next week we'll be doing granting immunity.
Speaker 2: Moving on up to season sixteen, episode nineteen, All Divisible.
Speaker 2: Oh as, let's say to the visibles by three, but
Speaker 2: that's not true at all.
Speaker 3: I'm out of here. Watch the episode. Thanks for listening. Bye, my.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klank and.
Speaker 3: At glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information. Thank you so much to our producer Ksey
Speaker 1: O'Brien and to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker,
Speaker 1: Patrick Cotner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song
Speaker 1: and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to
Speaker 1: our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and
Speaker 1: everybody at Exactly Right Media. Dun Dun