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Speaker 1: Hi guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I

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Speaker 1: will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane Shane Simpson.

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Speaker 1: First of all, again just a reminder, we are now

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Speaker 1: on our own feed, so if you could, if you

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Speaker 1: love listening to us, you can go over to our

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Speaker 1: feed called Legally Brunette. It's so much easier to find

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Speaker 1: now click follow, so make sure you're following us and

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Speaker 1: all of our episodes are now populated there so you

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Speaker 1: don't have to kind of go through two Teas to

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Speaker 1: locate them. Also, just a big shout out and thank

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Speaker 1: you to Two Teas. That was definitely a huge help

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Speaker 1: for us to launch this podcast. It allowed us to

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Speaker 1: have an audience that could come and listen and really

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Speaker 1: enjoy us. So a big thank you to them for

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Speaker 1: allowing us to get our start.

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Speaker 2: Yes, thank you.

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Speaker 1: So today, let's do just a little bit of updates.

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Speaker 1: There were a couple of things in the news that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about because we've been following Menandez

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Speaker 1: through all of this, so there were some new things

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Speaker 1: that came up, so let's just go through those. First

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Speaker 1: of all, if you remember we talked about in earlier episodes.

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Speaker 1: If you want to go back and listen to any

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Speaker 1: of our earlier Menindez episodes, there was a habeas petition

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Speaker 1: before Judge Ryan and that was basically asking for a

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Speaker 1: new trial based on new evidence. So recently the judge,

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Speaker 1: Judge Ryan denies the Menindez brothers petition for a new

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Speaker 1: trial and their latest setback that was an ABC News article.

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Speaker 1: So last Tuesday, had Judge denied the Menindez brothers Habeas

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Speaker 1: corpus petition which they had submitted back in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: That was to throw out their old conviction and receive

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Speaker 1: a new trial based on recently discovered evidence. And if

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Speaker 1: you do remember the two new pieces of evidence, do

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Speaker 1: you remember what they were? The two new pieces of

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Speaker 1: evidence was.

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Speaker 2: A letter from a childhood or a longtime friend or cousin, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that claimed abuse. So it kind of corroborated the stories

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Speaker 2: that the father was abuse, right.

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Speaker 1: It was a letter that Eric Menindez had written to

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Speaker 1: his cousin Andy basically alluding to the sexual abuse by

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Speaker 1: his father Jose. So that was included in the habeas

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Speaker 1: And the second piece of new evidence, do you remember

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Speaker 1: the second one? The fingerprints on the knife no, no,

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Speaker 1: there was no knife in case Ron case it was.

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Speaker 1: There was a documentary that came out about the Menudo.

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Speaker 1: A member of the Menudo, remember the band.

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Speaker 2: Was another witness testimony, right.

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Speaker 1: Roy Roussello, that's his name. I watched it. He also

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Speaker 1: came forward and said that when he was a member

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Speaker 1: of Menudo and he was very young, that he was

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Speaker 1: also abused by Jose. And so those were the two

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Speaker 1: pieces of corroborating evidence. However, the judge said that the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight letter from Andy Cano, who was the cousin,

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Speaker 1: about alleged abuse, was not very strong, even saying it

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Speaker 1: contradicted the brother's attempts at a new trial. The judge said,

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Speaker 1: neither piece of newly discovered evidence is particularly strong. The

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Speaker 1: Cano letter contradicts in part the testimony of Eric and

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Speaker 1: Andy Canno, who testified in the original trials. It also

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Speaker 1: only corroborates what was already discussed at length by both witnesses.

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Speaker 1: The two did discuss Jose's abuse. At best, it does

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Speaker 1: not additionally inform the jury of petitioner's alleged fear at

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Speaker 1: the time of the murders, and at worst, it puts

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Speaker 1: a crack and the credibility of both witnesses. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure exactly what he means by the credibility of both witnesses,

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Speaker 1: but I do understand where he's saying. The main issue

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Speaker 1: is whether they were justified in killing their parents that

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Speaker 1: night because they were fearful of their life, and that's

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Speaker 1: why they claim that they got the shotguns and they

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Speaker 1: shot their parents because they were afraid their parents were

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Speaker 1: going to kill them. And he's saying, this letter corroborates

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Speaker 1: the abuse, but it doesn't help.

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Speaker 2: With the women at fear the eminent fear exactly.

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Speaker 1: The judge also disputed the relevance of testimony from Roy Rosello,

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Speaker 1: who is the member of Menudo. As for the Rosello

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Speaker 1: declaration that corroborates the general allegation that Jose was sexually

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Speaker 1: abusive of boys and young men, but it is not

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Speaker 1: relevant to the petitioner's state of mind at the time

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Speaker 1: of murders. It's the same thing. It's saying, Yeah, again,

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Speaker 1: this corroborates that he was sexually abusive. However, again it doesn't.

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Speaker 2: It just stops there. Yeah, Okay, we're not fine. There's abuse,

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Speaker 2: but there's more needed in order to have a better

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Speaker 2: defense exactly.

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Speaker 1: So, speaking at a news conference on Tuesday after the

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Speaker 1: judge's decision, La County District Attorney Nathan Hakman told reporters

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Speaker 1: that the judge's decision amounted to a full cabash on

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Speaker 1: the brothers habeas petition. And he's right now that the

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Speaker 1: judge made a decision on the habeas petition. There's there's

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Speaker 1: no other road that's done. There's nothing else to do,

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Speaker 1: so that road is blocked. They still have the possibility

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Speaker 1: of getting out on parole, which we spoke about previously

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Speaker 1: when we did an episode on that's.

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Speaker 2: Not for three years.

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Speaker 1: Well, it said remember we were, it said eighteen months

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Speaker 1: they would be eligible. I think they they in eighteen

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Speaker 1: months they can start petitioning for parole and probably start.

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Speaker 2: But if all goes well, it wouldn't be sooner than.

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Speaker 1: Three to be sooner than three years. So anyway, that

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Speaker 1: is their other option. And then there's always the option

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Speaker 1: that Governor Newsome decides to uh.

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Speaker 2: He actually wakes up and he wakes up attention.

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Speaker 1: He's like, what he could commute them and you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe getting people's.

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Speaker 2: Good greases exactly, and the Menudo brothers and they're like, no, sir,

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Speaker 2: Menendez brothers. We've gone over this before.

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Speaker 1: It's Menendez, all right. So that is an update on Menendez.

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Speaker 1: We'll keep following that and see what happens. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what do you think the likelihood of them ever?

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Speaker 1: Do you think they'll be paroled at some point? No, no,

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Speaker 1: you don't.

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Speaker 2: I have no reason to think they would in three

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Speaker 2: years versus right now. All that's happened. Well, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what could happen in the next three years. I

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Speaker 2: guess they would have to use any different because then't

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Speaker 2: they have like cell phone use. So they were.

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Speaker 1: Right, they had some infractions and they had cell phone use.

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Speaker 1: So I guess if they were just had a clean

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Speaker 1: record for the next three years and they didn't have

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Speaker 1: any maybe then you know, I think it's a possibility,

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Speaker 1: but maybe again, we'll see. We'll continue to follow it.

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Speaker 1: Another update, just a brief update on Lively in Baldoni.

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Speaker 1: We took a step back from that because I was

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Speaker 1: tired of talking about Blake Lively. But I think there's

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Speaker 1: some interesting things that have come up in the trial recently,

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Speaker 1: or not the trial, but the case. They're going to

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Speaker 1: go to trial next spring at least that's on the calendar.

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Speaker 1: We'll see what continues to happen. But Justin Baldoni has

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Speaker 1: hired Alexandra's Shapiro to join his legal team amid his

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Speaker 1: ongoing case with Blake Lively. If you don't remember the

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Speaker 1: name of Alexandra Shapiro, she was part of Ditty's defense team.

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Speaker 1: The addition of Shapiro to Baldoni's team comes as he

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Speaker 1: is facing further scrutiny as another individual has come forward

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Speaker 1: with claims of harassment. This is according to a newly

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Speaker 1: filed court document, which was obtained by The Daily Mail. Also,

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Speaker 1: I do remember when we talked, when I read all

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Speaker 1: the legal documents in the beginning, when it came to

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Speaker 1: Blake Lively, her original CRT, I think that's what it

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Speaker 1: was called. It was the civil rights violation. Remember, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't an actual This is.

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Speaker 2: The form the allegations.

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Speaker 1: And she alleged in that first initial complaint that there

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Speaker 1: was someone else on this set that also had filed

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Speaker 1: something against him for harassment, but she didn't name who

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Speaker 1: it wasn't there wasn't any details and it was very vague,

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if this is the same person.

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Speaker 1: Or if this is someone different that they managed to find.

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Speaker 1: In a sworn declaration filed by Blake Lively's lawyer, the

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Speaker 1: individual whose name has been redacted alleged they endured repeated

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Speaker 1: negative interactions with mister Baldoni and his associates, including verbal

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Speaker 1: abuse by mister Baldoni. The unnamed person further claimed that

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Speaker 1: Baldoni was not permitted on set during the majority of

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Speaker 1: production as a result of those experiences. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if this person is referring to it ends with us.

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Speaker 1: We've already discussed the fact that he wasn't allowed on

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Speaker 1: set because Blake Lively make sure.

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Speaker 2: That he was.

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Speaker 1: He was taken off of the movie, So I don't know. Also,

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Speaker 1: it's very hard for me to find this man to

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Speaker 1: be verbally abusive. After all of the research. I've done everything,

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Speaker 1: I've read, all of his text messages, all of his

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Speaker 1: communications with Blake Blake Lively. I don't find him to

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Speaker 1: be a.

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Speaker 2: Verbally find her to be more verbally abusive than him. Well,

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Speaker 2: I find things you've read and seen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I've seen a lot of interviews with

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Speaker 1: her where she's very self righteous.

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Speaker 2: But even the text messages.

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Speaker 1: She is and so I don't know. It's hard for

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Speaker 1: me to believe that there's any type of verbal abuse

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Speaker 1: when it comes to this man, I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't find it. I don't know. We'll have

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Speaker 1: to have more information to find it credible. But the

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Speaker 1: individual also said they requested that Baldoni not be involved

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Speaker 1: in marketing or public relations efforts, which I again, I

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Speaker 1: believe that that was Blake Lively requesting that he not

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Speaker 1: be involved in any of the marketing. And he was

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Speaker 1: removed from a lot of the things, even a premiere day, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was in the basement at premiere days. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know who this other person is. This will be

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Speaker 1: interesting once that comes out. A source told TMC that

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Speaker 1: the individual is likely to testify against Justin and Lively's trial.

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Speaker 1: The filing also references Baldoni's business partner, Wayfair co founder

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Speaker 1: Steve Sorrowitz, noting that the accuser had been contacted by

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Speaker 1: sorrowitz assistant to arrange a meeting, though no specific topic

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Speaker 1: for the discussion was identified. The document was filed on

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Speaker 1: September fourth of twenty twenty five and was submitted under

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Speaker 1: penalty of perjury. Okay, I find this interesting because we'll

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Speaker 1: continue to follow that because again, when we talked about

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Speaker 1: this case earlier, Sorrowitz is kind of like a silent partner.

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Speaker 1: But I do remember that she made allegations that he

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Speaker 1: was on set when she was doing the birthing scene

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Speaker 1: and that she was uncomfortable with him being there, and

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Speaker 1: that I don't know. I just again, it just seems.

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Speaker 2: Who would work with her? Again, I wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: Well, when she reaches out to you and asks you

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Speaker 1: to be in her next movie, you can.

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Speaker 2: Tell her how I feel like I would. However, paying attention,

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Speaker 2: my wife doesn't like you, no, allegedly alleged.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go on and move on to the bulk

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Speaker 1: of what we're going to talk about today, which is

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Speaker 1: the Yogurt Shot Murders. This is a four part HBO series.

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Speaker 1: It was recently just came out on HBO, so if

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Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to watch it, I think it

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Speaker 1: was very very interesting. It was done well.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: The Yogurt Shop Murders refer to a nineteen ninety one

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Speaker 1: unsolved quadruple homicide of four teenage girls at an Austin, Texas.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it's yogurt. Do you remember that? Do

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Speaker 1: you remember those?

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Speaker 2: No, I just remember I can't believe it's not butter. Oh, Margarine,

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Speaker 2: I don't remember that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well I do remember that. Yeah, I can't believe

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Speaker 1: it's yogurt. They called it icbuy.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure it was a play on that phrase. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: either way, right, so this was yeah, okay, now I remember, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the acronym icby they were popular.

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Speaker 1: Like now, it's yogurt land right here. I don't know

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Speaker 1: in other places, but here in southern California, there's a

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Speaker 1: ton of yogurt lands. But it's the same it's the

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Speaker 1: same concept, but it was called I can't believe it's yogurt.

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Speaker 1: It was a crime that shocked the community and left

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Speaker 1: a lasting trauma. The victims were forced to the back

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Speaker 1: of the shop. This is four young teenage girls, the

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Speaker 1: four victims and the yogurt shop murders. Two of the girls,

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Speaker 1: Eliza and Jennifer, who were both seventeen at the time,

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Speaker 1: worked at the shop.

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Speaker 2: So they're closing shops. It was like eleven o'clock at night.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the end of the night. They're closing. There's

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Speaker 1: two girls at work there. They're closing the shop. That's

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Speaker 1: Eliza and Jennifer. They're seventeen. Sarah, who was fifteen, was

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Speaker 1: Jennifer's younger sister, and then she was there with her

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Speaker 1: best friend Amy, who was thirteen. So you have four

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Speaker 1: teenage girls in a yogurt shop chatting, having a good

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Speaker 1: time cleaning up, closing a shop. Someone comes in and

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Speaker 1: forces them to the back of the shop, ties them up,

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Speaker 1: gags them, and then shot all four girls to death

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Speaker 1: before the shop was then set on fire. The case

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Speaker 1: has remained a significant mystery for years, complicated by aggressive

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Speaker 1: interrogation tactics which we're going to get into that led

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Speaker 1: to false confessions and questionable evidence, before newer technology and

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Speaker 1: investigations brought new focus to the case again. A docuseries

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Speaker 1: titled The Yogurt Shop Murders chronicles the tragedy. It's on HBO. Also,

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Speaker 1: what I thought was interesting about The Yogurt Shop Murders

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Speaker 1: on HBO is the new director used a lot of

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Speaker 1: old footage from I think Variety was going to do

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Speaker 1: a docuseries on it, but for some reason it never happened,

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Speaker 1: So they have all this footage.

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Speaker 2: You're saying a docuseries was initiated, was initiated, Maybe they

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Speaker 2: went through they did a significant amount of it, and

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Speaker 2: then they dropped it.

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Speaker 1: And then they dropped it. I don't know why it.

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Speaker 2: Was dropped, picked up where it left off and added

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Speaker 2: to it.

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Speaker 1: And now now this is recent just it just came

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Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty five, in August, So they've used

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Speaker 1: a lot of that older footage, but they've also added

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Speaker 1: in a lot of new interviews with the family. Also,

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Speaker 1: what's different about the Yogurt shot murders. It's true crime,

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Speaker 1: but I think the director she didn't focus on true crime.

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Speaker 1: She focused on the impact that grief has on the family. Oh,

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Speaker 1: the family, the community and the families, but specifically the families,

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Speaker 1: how it's been thirty years, how where they are, how

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Speaker 1: they've processed through it. I mean you have to think

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Speaker 1: about the one mother lost two daughters. Yeah, nice, and

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Speaker 1: they interview her and.

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Speaker 2: In that horrific manner too. I mean, those are the

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Speaker 2: only thoughts that are going through your head when you're right,

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Speaker 2: child was killed like that?

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Speaker 1: Right. The director was named Margaret Brown, and I read

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Speaker 1: an interview with her and she told Variety, this is

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Speaker 1: in August of twenty twenty five, right after this docu

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Speaker 1: series came out that her team or her it's called

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Speaker 1: A twenty four, that's her production company covered some of

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Speaker 1: her team's therapy costs because they were photos of the

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Speaker 1: actual crime scene and that it was really hard on

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Speaker 1: their system. Now, in the docuseries, they don't show actual

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Speaker 1: photos of the crime scene, obviously for respect to the

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Speaker 1: victims and the families. They show crime scene photos of

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Speaker 1: fire and evidence and things like that, but they don't

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Speaker 1: actually show bodies bodies, right, So let's just go through

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Speaker 1: a timeline of the events and then get to where

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Speaker 1: we at today with this. So, on December sixth, nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety one, around midnight, all SOMEO firefighters respond to a

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Speaker 1: fire at the camp I can't believe it's yogurt shop

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Speaker 1: on Anderson Lane. Inside they find the bodies of Jennifer, Sarah, Eliza,

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Speaker 1: and Amy, all teenagers that were bound, gagged, shot in

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Speaker 1: the back of the head execution style, and the store

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Speaker 1: had then been set on fire. I mean clearly the

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Speaker 1: fire was set as a way to.

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Speaker 2: Destroy the evidence exactly.

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Speaker 1: So nine days later, this is December fifteenth, and nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety one, the police stop this young kid named Maurice Pierce,

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Speaker 1: he's sixteen at the time, at the North Cross Mall.

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Speaker 1: He has a twenty two caliber pistol tucked into his waistband.

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Speaker 2: And that's the same type of gun that was used

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Speaker 2: in the murders. Yes, same caliber anyway, so the twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Was considered a possible match for the murder weapon. They

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Speaker 1: bring Maurice in for an interview and he's interviewed by

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Speaker 1: police Sergeant Hector Polanco, and the interview starts at midnight. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is interesting. This kid is sixteen. He gets brought

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Speaker 1: into the police station. He's sixteen years old. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a parent with him. I believe.

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Speaker 2: That's my question is like, if we had a sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old and they don't come home, we'd want to

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Speaker 2: know where they were. And if the police called and said, oh,

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Speaker 2: he's in our interrogation room, you would drive down. I

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Speaker 2: would think, like, okay, where. So I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 2: you do. I don't know what's going on, But a

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Speaker 2: sixteen year old in a police station at midnight is

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Speaker 2: already posing some concerning questions exactly.

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Speaker 1: And there's other boys that become involved and will go

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Speaker 1: through that. But according to the docu series. And I

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Speaker 1: think this is interesting is that these boys come from

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Speaker 1: broken families. And I think that this kid, this kid,

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Speaker 1: Maurice Pearce, was known as like a bad kid, right.

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Speaker 1: He was like the kind of like punk kid in town.

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Speaker 1: He takes a gun to the mall. He's just he's

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Speaker 1: known to be a troublemaker. Also, the fact that he

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Speaker 1: starts getting interviewed at midnight. Who gets interviewed at midnight?

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Speaker 1: Why are they interviewing a teenager at midnight?

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Speaker 2: That's why I'm wondering, this is already off to a

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Speaker 2: bad start.

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Speaker 1: Right. Also, this Hector Polanco who interviews him, I just

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Speaker 1: want to read a little quote about him, because they

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Speaker 1: focus on a lot of problems with Hector. Hector polonco

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Speaker 1: new interrogation. This is what Detective John Jones says, who's

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Speaker 1: the main the main investigator on this case and they

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Speaker 1: interview him in this series. He says, you know, he

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Speaker 1: was a cobra. He had the reputation and homicide for

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Speaker 1: solving the tough cases. Now, when he said that, I

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Speaker 1: thought solving the tough cases or getting people to admit

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Speaker 1: to things that maybe they didn't possibly do. So they

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Speaker 1: also interview in this docuseries Detective Mike Huckabee, who worked

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Speaker 1: on the case. He also speaks to Polanco in the docuseries,

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Speaker 1: and this is what he says about him. The sad

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Speaker 1: thing about it is Hector really is a good investigator.

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Speaker 1: He's a very good investigator, but he don't use it right.

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Speaker 1: Hakkabee says, I've seen him get confessions from somebody that

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Speaker 1: did not have a thing to do with it. But

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Speaker 1: Hector can scare the shit out of you and make

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Speaker 1: you confess. He can. He's okay with it. As long

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Speaker 1: as he gets a confession, he's okay. So this is

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Speaker 1: the man who was interviewing a sixteen year old at midnight.

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Speaker 1: So I just wanted to give those kind of background

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Speaker 1: information on what people say about Hector and think about Hector.

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Speaker 1: So he interviews Maurice. I'm not sure exactly how long

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Speaker 1: the interview goes, but it starts at midnight and the

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Speaker 1: and he actually gets some type of confession from him.

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Speaker 1: I don't think Maurice says that he's actually involved himself,

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Speaker 1: but he names other people and he does give some

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Speaker 1: type of confession as to what happened that night. Then

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Speaker 1: after Polonko's done with him. I'm sure he interviews him

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Speaker 1: all night long. Then the lead investigator, John Jones comes

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Speaker 1: in the next morning and he's like, hey, I need

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Speaker 1: you to take a written statement. He just confessed. So

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Speaker 1: John Jones then takes a written statement. The written statement

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Speaker 1: is almost completely different than the oral interview that he

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Speaker 1: gave just earlier over the night.

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Speaker 2: Is like factually different, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Factually different. Like it's just you know whatever he was

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Speaker 1: telling you know this this Cobra Polonko in this overnight interview. Listen,

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Speaker 1: I go to bed at nine o'clock. If the police

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Speaker 1: call me in to an interview at.

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Speaker 2: Midnight, like Shane's in the interrogation room at midnight, and

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Speaker 2: you'd be like, okay, me in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But I'm saying, but if I'm saying, if I'm

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Speaker 1: getting interviewed a midnight, yes, I'm like, I might. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what I would agree.

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Speaker 2: The difference is you would know a little bit more

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Speaker 2: of your rights and you would be like, I'm not

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Speaker 2: gonna you know, I need an attorney or if you're

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Speaker 2: not holding me against my will, then I'm going to

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Speaker 2: go home. But his sixteen year old right a six

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Speaker 2: year old is going to be intimate, especially if they're

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Speaker 2: carrying a gun. And if he didn't do anything wrong,

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Speaker 2: he's just playing and he has a gun, which I

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Speaker 2: don't approve of. But he has a gun and he's

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Speaker 2: just being playful, or he thinks he's cool and he

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Speaker 2: has a gun and then this happens, He's gonna be scared, right.

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Speaker 1: So again, Maurice never actually confesses to the murders himself,

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Speaker 1: but he does claim his friend Forrest Welborn took his

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Speaker 1: pistol and told him that he shot the girls and

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Speaker 1: that he liked watching them burn. So he's not admitting

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Speaker 1: that he himself was involved, but he's naming other people

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Speaker 1: that were involved. Police wire Maurice to get a confession

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Speaker 1: from Forrest, but the confession never comes. He actually like

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Speaker 1: gets wired and goes and talks to his friend Forrest

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Speaker 1: about it, and friend Forrest never he never admits to

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Speaker 1: anything or says that he was involved.

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Speaker 2: In any way because he wasn't involved.

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Speaker 1: Forrest insists that it was just a joke and that

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Speaker 1: he had nothing to do with the murders. He was

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Speaker 1: with Maurice the whole night. Then eight years later, so

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Speaker 1: that goes nowhere, right right, They don't really get much

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Speaker 1: of a confession. They try to get Forrest, you know,

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Speaker 1: on wiretaps saying that he was involved, he doesn't admit

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Speaker 1: to doing anything there. Also, there's no physical evidence taken

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Speaker 1: from this crime scene because of the fires. Then when

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Speaker 1: the fire department arrives and they hose everything down, everything

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Speaker 1: gets wet, so then you can't get fingerprints. They don't

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Speaker 1: have They have very very small amounts of DNA, but

401
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Speaker 1: again this is nineteen ninety one, so they can't.

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Speaker 2: Really run it.

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Speaker 1: It's not testable at that time in nineteen ninety one.

404
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Speaker 1: You have to have large amounts of liquid to be

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Speaker 1: able to test it back then, so they don't have anything.

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Speaker 2: Well, and with the fire, probably whatever other DNA was

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Speaker 2: available that it might have been testable at the time

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Speaker 2: is now destroyed.

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Speaker 1: So then eight years later we get to nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 1: So nothing happens with this case until nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 1: Police revisit Maurice's involvement in this case and ask why

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Speaker 1: he gave conflicting statements, So they bring him back in

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Speaker 1: to the police station. And you know this is interesting too,

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Speaker 1: because I was talking about this with Jasmine who works

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Speaker 1: with the Innocence Project with me, and she was saying,

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Speaker 1: what's so sad about this? In these interrogations. She told

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Speaker 1: me she has a hard time watching the interrogations. Is

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Speaker 1: what she said is that when people go down to

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Speaker 1: the police station, they're going because they think they're helping, right,

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Speaker 1: they're showing it up.

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Speaker 2: Like the guy that says I was on that bridge. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: last week he said I was on that bridge, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: let me know if you have any.

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Speaker 1: Questions, right exactly in this case, that's interesting you brought

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Speaker 1: it up. That's Richard Allen from the Delphi murders. I

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Speaker 1: find this case to be very similar to Richard Allen

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Speaker 1: and the Delphi murders. And we can talk about.

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Speaker 2: That a little bit. They have a suspect and so

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Speaker 2: they make it fit the crime.

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, you're talking about teenage girls that

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Speaker 1: are that are murdered and horrific ways. You're talking about

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00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 1: no DNA evidence, no fingerprints, no physical evidence left behind

433
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 1: in either one. There's a large time lapse that goes

434
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 1: by where they don't have a suspect. Then they're bringing

435
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: people in and they're basically coercing them into confessions and

436
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: telling them that they were there. It just the Delphi murders.

437
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to that, we did that podcast

438
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: last week. It's very there's a lot of similarities between

439
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: these two cases. So they bring Maurice back in. This

440
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: is in nineteen ninety eight, this is eight years later,

441
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: and they ask why he gave conflicting statements. Maurice can't

442
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 1: remember anything, and he never actually confesses, but he does

443
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: point fingers at the three boys he was with that night.

444
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 1: So again he never confesses himself that he was involved,

445
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 1: but he does say that there were three other guys

446
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: that he was with that night that were involved in

447
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 1: the case. So then this is September of nineteen ninety nine.

448
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 1: First they bring in Forrest Welborn. He's the one that

449
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: they originally tried to get on a wiretap, admitting that

450
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: he was involved. Bring him back in. He shows up again.

451
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: This is the other thing. They just keep going to

452
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: the police station alone with no no one with them,

453
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 1: no attorney, president, they don't ask for an attorney, and

454
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: they go in and they sit there and I don't know.

455
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 2: It's free. Yeah, well this is okay, isn't didn't you

456
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 2: tell me something about their legislation to try to make

457
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: it if you're under age, an attorney has to be

458
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 2: afforded to you without you like expressing your need for

459
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 2: an insue.

460
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that actually came out of the Terrell Swift

461
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 1: case that if you watch Housewives, I I did a

462
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: scene with Tourell. Remember he was convicted when he was

463
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: very young, and then he find he signed a false

464
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: he was he was under age.

465
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: He was overly interrogated by the police to the point of.

466
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: Confession false confession. He spent twenty years in prison. He

467
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: was exonerated by DNA evidence that came out later and

468
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: then recently, I don't know the name of the bill,

469
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 1: but there was a recent California bill that was passed

470
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 1: because of his case that he advocated for. That has

471
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: to do with not being able to interrogate a minor

472
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 1: without an attorney. This is present.

473
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: This is a state thing is yes, this is California.

474
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 2: This is a no other states that have that as well, right,

475
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 2: I mean it.

476
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: Should be federal, but it's not. But there's no way

477
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: that you should ever be able to interrogate child.

478
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: You want our kids' friends, come on. I feel bad

479
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: like if I'm going to, like, you know, talk to them,

480
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: and oh.

481
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: You get nervous talking to them.

482
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: Parents.

483
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: That's Shane, He's weird. He's taller in person, all right.

484
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: So then Maurice Pierce names Michael Scott. They bring him

485
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: into interrogate him. Let' 's talk about Michael Scott's interrogation.

486
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: They interrogate him for over twenty hours, and again he's

487
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: backed into a corner. He's got two investigators in his face.

488
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: The real question is do you feel free to leave? Right?

489
00:24:58,880 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: That's the legal standard.

490
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 2: Well, yes, that is a legal standard. Does anyone ever

491
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: feel free to leave when you have a police officer

492
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 2: standing there and talking to you and then questioning you

493
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: about something. No one ever feels free to leave.

494
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: Not when you're at the farthest point of the room

495
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: from the door, and you have two investigators ten inches

496
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: from your face leaning forward into you, talking about and

497
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: asking you about a crime. I don't think anyone would feel.

498
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 2: No one free to leave, and I can't blame them

499
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: for not feeling free to leave. But the courts say that,

500
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: They say, a reasonable person you just jumped.

501
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: Up and walked out. Sorry, guys, right, No one does

502
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: that anyway? Also in Michael's interrogation, they actually pull out

503
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: a gun at a point because they're re enacting the

504
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: crime scene, right, and they're saying, Michael, this is what

505
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: you did. You were there, here's the gun. You know,

506
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: you went up behind her and you put the gun

507
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: behind her. And they have an actual gun and they're

508
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: brandishing it in face, start putting.

509
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: It to the back of his head, even if it's

510
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: not loaded. Pointing a gun at someone.

511
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: That's scary, right, Well, again, a reasonable person standard, do

512
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 1: you feel free to leave?

513
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: Wouldn't feel threatened?

514
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: Another tactic that they use in these interrogations that was

515
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: just so clear to me that this is just psychological

516
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: warfare at this point, right is they're saying, Michael, you

517
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: know what happened you you tied the girls up? How

518
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: did you do it? You know how you did it?

519
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: And the first thing he says is shoelaces, And that's

520
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: not right, right, it wasn't shoelaces. So they're like, no, Michael,

521
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: you're not remembering it right. You got to think harder, Michael, Right, Michael,

522
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 1: it wasn't shoelaces.

523
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 2: What was it?

524
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: And then he's like electrical cords and they're like, no, Michael,

525
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: it's not electrical chords. Think harder. I think he even

526
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: goes on to say napkins. I'm sure this guy's trying

527
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: to think of everything possible he could think of. And

528
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: then finally he's like clothes and they're like, yes, that's it, Michael,

529
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: because they were bound by their clothing. And so, I mean,

530
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: after four attempts, he finally gets it right and they're like, see, Michael,

531
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: now you remember, now you remember what you did that night.

532
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: Goodness. It reminds me of when I worked at Target

533
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: as an investigator for internal external theft, and anytime we

534
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: would catch someone internal right, someone on the inside stealing,

535
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: which was more valuable. It was a really a big deal.

536
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: If you can catch someone on the inside, because there

537
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: were more of a liability, you would interrogate them. So

538
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: you already have all the evidence. You already have the videos,

539
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 2: you have the receipts, you have everything. Now you just

540
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: want a confession for added you know kicks right, So

541
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 2: you go and you get them confessed. But you they

542
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: had rules. Target had rules. You could not be between

543
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 2: them and the door. Nothing could be between them and

544
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 2: the door, and the door had to be cracked open,

545
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: so they felt free to leave, and it was really important.

546
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: And one of the tactics I use, which cops use,

547
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 2: which is I don't believe you're a bad person.

548
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: You just made a bad choice, right you use that?

549
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well no, What I would say is Target's

550
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: a billion dollar company. They don't care about socks and

551
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: underwhere right, it's a big deal. Is they want to

552
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 2: straighten it out and get their money back. So just

553
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: you're right down everything you stole and the value. Let's

554
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: let's get it squared away, let's be done.

555
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: So you were doing that thing, or you're building rapport,

556
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: you're being their friend.

557
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: Which cops do, which is yes, and which is true

558
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 2: because I was saying, let's clear it up, write everything down,

559
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 2: because you're gonna have to pay them back. I didn't

560
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: let them know that I already called the sheriff and

561
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: they're coming to arrest them afterwards once they make apussion. No, no, no,

562
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: I was truthful.

563
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: You just omitted things.

564
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: I just didn't.

565
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, omission exactly right.

566
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: Anyway. The point is cops can be crookedly and shady.

567
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: Yes. Also, I think the point of your story is

568
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: I feel like Target has stricter.

569
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: Uh oh yeah, way strict, way stricter. Liability. Cops have immunity, right,

570
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: Can they see the cop and say you assaulted me

571
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: by putting the gun? Now not really, I mean the

572
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: police department maybe, and it gets buried. But private organizations bam,

573
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: big loss, deep pockets. Right.

574
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,239
Speaker 1: Lastly, they interrogate Robert Springsteen. Robert claims that he went

575
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: to a Rocky horror picture show that night. When they

576
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: bring him in for the interrogation, he's very adamant and

577
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: he's believable. He's like, I had nothing to do with this.

578
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: I wasn't there. Again, those four guys were kind of troublemakers,

579
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: and they were all together that night. But they're all

580
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: pointing fingers at each other.

581
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,479
Speaker 2: They don't know what's going on.

582
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: No, and none of their none of their stories really

583
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: add up. He claims that he does remember that he

584
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: was at a rocky horror picture show that night. The

585
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: police then lie to him and tell him that there

586
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: wasn't even a showing that night. And you can tell

587
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: during the interrogation when they say to him, hey, we'll

588
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: just tell you that there wasn't even a showing that night,

589
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: that he's dumbfounded. He's like, but I but I remember

590
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: being there. I remember going And then when they lie

591
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: to him and say there wasn't a showing, then you

592
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: can tell that he's That's when they start to get

593
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: him and they start to get him to confess because

594
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: he's very confused about what's going on, and you're talking

595
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: about these are guys in their twenties. They're not. I don't,

596
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: I don't I think any of them are highly educated.

597
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: They can't find anyone in.

598
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: Their early twenties is inexperienced to deal with even someone

599
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: in their forties might be inexperienced to deal with all this.

600
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: He does remain adamant that he wasn't at the yogurt shop,

601
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: and he asked to take a light detector test. This

602
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: is in the beginning of the interrogation, but after hours

603
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: of interrogating, he eventually confesses to being there, just like

604
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: Michael Scott does. And then they start talking about things

605
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: and obviously this again, how would they know details of

606
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: this case. This case was very huge and there was

607
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: a lot going on in the media. They also had

608
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: claimed that they bought a paper the next day when

609
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: they were in the stolen vehicle. And went to San

610
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: Antonio that they bought a paper and read about the murder.

611
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: So whatever these memories are that are coming up.

612
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have some familiarity with.

613
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: Murder, having exactly exactly a lot of this issue with

614
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: the false confessions, which they actually go into in the docuseriies,

615
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: and I was kind of glad that they did. That.

616
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: Is they say that the police use a nine step

617
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: interrogation process, and it's widely known as the Read technique.

618
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: It's been heavily criticized for increasing the risk of false

619
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: confessions and for being psychologically manipulative and coercive. Tactics used

620
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: in the Read technique, like psychological pressure, deception, moral justification,

621
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: can be very effective at eliciting confessions from both guilty

622
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: and innocent people. And I don't to me, that's what

623
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: it seems like. I mean, did these boys really have

624
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: anything to do with this murder that night? My takeaway

625
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: is no.

626
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: At least not. The evidence doesn't show that the evidence

627
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: is weak, right at.

628
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: Best, they end up being tried. First of all, Force

629
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: ends up we talked about earlier. Force ends up getting

630
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: off because he supposedly wasn't involved in it. They'd say

631
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: that he was like the getaway driver or something. They

632
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: don't have any physical evidence. The judge let's out on bail.

633
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: He that's the End's good to them. Yeah. Robert Springsteen

634
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: is tried convicted of capital murder, largely based on just

635
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: his confession because again they have no physical evidence capital murder.

636
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: Day on that evidence, Yes, he gets sentenced to death.

637
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: This is in May of two thousand and one. Michael

638
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: Scott goes to trial.

639
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: Wait, so he is sentenced.

640
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: Yes, Robert Springsteen is tried in front.

641
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: Of it jury and is sentencing is death.

642
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: He has found guilty of capital murder and it's all

643
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: based on his confession or the other people's confession, them

644
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: naming him, and he is sentenced to death. Again, there

645
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: is no DNA evidence, there is no fingerprint, there is

646
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: no physical evidence that ties other witnesses.

647
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: There's nothing.

648
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: Well, the four guys naming each other in their interrogations.

649
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

650
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: Michael Scott then goes to trial. His confession is used

651
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: as the main evidence. Again, there's no fingerprint, DNA, there's

652
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: nothing that ties him to the crime. He's convicted of

653
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: capital murder and he receives the life in prison. Maurice

654
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: Pierce who was the original kid that was brought in

655
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: for interrogation because he's the one that went to the

656
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: mall with the gun and the twenty two caliber. He

657
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: spends some time in jail awaiting trial, but prosecutors eventually

658
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: drop the charges due to having no physical evidence against him,

659
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: and he would never actually confess. So he's the only

660
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: one that never actually confessed to being there and being

661
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: part of this crime. So the DA drops a case

662
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: against him. However, they make it very clear that he's

663
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: still a suspect in their eyes.

664
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: Sot there.

665
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: Well, you've got the two gods. So there are four

666
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: that are all naming each other and they're all being interrogated.

667
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: You've got two that are convicted, and then you've got Maurice,

668
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: who actually is The charges are dropped against him because

669
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: because he never said that he was actually there. He

670
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: named other people, but he didn't say he was there. Okay,

671
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: now they go to prison. They spend about ten years

672
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: in prison, and then they both get there convictions overturned

673
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: because there are blatant constitutional errors. They So we're talking

674
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: about Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott. They both have separate trials. However,

675
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: both pleaded the fifth and did not testify on their

676
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: own behalf. Also, during their trials, and you'll understand this

677
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 1: because this is a sixth Amendment issue, they used confessions.

678
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 1: So in Robert's trial, they use confessions from Michael Scotts.

679
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: A made a confession and pointed to B. B made

680
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: a confession and pointed A. A pleads the fifth. Therefore he

681
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: can't be put on the stand. B pleads the fifth.

682
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: Therefore he can't be put on the stand. Therefore A

683
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: cannot question B and confront his witness or the accuser,

684
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: and B cannot question A and confront his accuser. And

685
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 2: therefore the confession is inadmissible because you're allowed to. You

686
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 2: have a constitutional right to address your accusers exactly.

687
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: So, just to simplify that, you have the these.

688
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: Guys are simple, Well it was.

689
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: There's a lot of a's and b's in there. But

690
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: basically what happened is these guys are accusing each other

691
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: during these interrogations, and then they have these written confessions. Correct.

692
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: They take the written statements and they bring it in

693
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: and show it to a jury as evidence. However, you

694
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: can't have Michael Scott's confession during an interrogation against Robert

695
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: without being able to then cross examin Michael Scott. And

696
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: Michael Scott didn't testify, so there was no way to

697
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: cross examine him. So again there were blatant Six Amendment violations.

698
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 1: So in June of two thousand and six, the Texas

699
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: Court of Criminal Appeals overturns Robert Springsteen's conviction, ruling his

700
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: rights were violated because he did not cross examine Scott,

701
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: whose confession implicated him. And then in September of two

702
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals overturns

703
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: Michael Scott's conviction because he could not cross examine Robert Springsteen.

704
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: So then they end up getting out of prison. Now

705
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: this is interesting because they do a whole thing in

706
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: the DA you know, does a press conference and speaks

707
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 1: and everything. So now we're in the early two thousands.

708
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: This murder happened in nineteen ninety one, and again we

709
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: talked about DNA evidence. They had small traces, but in

710
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one it couldn't be tested. However, now we're

711
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: into like, you know, what are we in like two

712
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, two thousand and nine. Now, so now

713
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: they have this thing called ystr DNA testing, so they

714
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: could use the small amounts of DNA that they found

715
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 1: during a vaginal swab. So they got some DNA from that,

716
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: but it was a very small amount. But now they

717
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: can test it. So I know they tested it thinking

718
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: that that DNA was gonna what match.

719
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 2: Back to who one of the guys that they coursed

720
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 2: into confessing.

721
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: Exactly, they think, okay, now we can we can do

722
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: this high tech new DNA testing.

723
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 2: Well they should be testing exactly.

724
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: They've got this small amount of DNA from a vaginal swab.

725
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: The full DNA pro file comes back and does not

726
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 1: match any of those four boys. So now you've got

727
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: a full DNA profile of someone else that's not any

728
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: of those.

729
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: Four yep, so to clear them. Yeah, yeah, So far

730
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 2: there were sentenced to One was sentenced to death. Imagine

731
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 2: had that been carried out exactly. That's why the death

732
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: all these a tough one to do because it's irreversible.

733
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: You can let people out of jail, right, but you

734
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 2: can't bring him back to life.

735
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: So the state claims that possibly the DNA could have

736
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: been contamination or a fifth person was involved. They do

737
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: not rule out the boys. The state tests everyone, and

738
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: then what the state does This is interesting too. First

739
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: of all, I watched the docu series and an attorney speaks.

740
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: He's a defense attorney for Michael Scott, and he says,

741
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: there's no way that it can be contamination because that

742
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: DNA sample is found in several other places. It's not

743
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: just and how can you have contamination on a rape

744
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: kit and the vaginal swuah, Like that's it's not like

745
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: in the Amanda Knox trial where they take a bunch

746
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: of knives and they'll throw them in a bag together.

747
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 2: And that's what he's saying about the integrity of the department.

748
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: That's you know, preserving the evidence in the you know,

749
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: chaining command and all that, right.

750
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: But what they did in order to rule out that

751
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: there was any type of contamination. And when I talk

752
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: about contamination, that means that someone, you know, someone in

753
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: the scene accidentally got some their own DNA. So the

754
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: state tests everyone that could have been present or near

755
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: the bodies, which was over two hundred men, and not

756
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: a single person matched. Right. So on June twenty fourth,

757
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: the two thousand and nine prosecutors announced that they cannot

758
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: retry Scott or Springsteen due to the new DNA evidence,

759
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: both men are released from prison, and then in October

760
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: twenty eighth to two thousand and nine, all charges against

761
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: Scott and Springsteen are formally dismissed. You know what's interesting

762
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: is the families, And this also reminds me of the

763
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: Delphi murders. The families still continue to believe that these

764
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: four boys are involved in some way. They do they do, yeah,

765
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: And I was thinking about.

766
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: It, and I don't want to say that they're not

767
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 2: allowed to think that. And obviously they know more about

768
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: the case than I do, and they're emotionally involved, but

769
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: it's because they probably have nowhere else to kind of.

770
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: Grief or yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it Also it

771
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: reminds me of Delphi too, because to me, I could

772
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 1: not find Richard Allen to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

773
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that he doesn't have the ability to

774
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: be the one that committed the murders, but to me,

775
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: not beyond a reasonable doubt. And I feel the same

776
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: way about these four boys and this whole new DNA

777
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 1: profile that doesn't match any of them, But the families

778
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: still hold on to the fact that they think it's

779
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: these four boys, and I think you're right in what

780
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: you're saying. It's because they need something. Yeah, because I

781
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: don't know what it's like to go through that kind

782
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: of grief. No one does, and no one would judge that.

783
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with the Delphi murders, where

784
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: the family is convinced that it's Richard Allen and they

785
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 1: can't really It's like tunnel vision, they can't really see

786
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: outside of that. And also it's because I do realize

787
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: that these families have a bond with the police officers

788
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: and the investigators.

789
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: They they've been invested in in the accused for however

790
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 2: many years, right to the trials.

791
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: And these investigators are following up with them. And what

792
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: are they saying, these guys did it, We know they

793
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: did it. We're going to get him for you, you know.

794
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: And so they don't. They don't have the capacity, I think,

795
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: to look outside of that. This also is interesting. I

796
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: did not know this about the case, but Maurice Pearce,

797
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: who was the original ringleader, right, the one that took

798
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: the gun to the mall, he ends up being killed

799
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: in December of two thousand and nine in Austin. A

800
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: police officer. They try to pull him over during just

801
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: a routine traffic stop. I think he ran a stop

802
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: sign and instead of pulling over, he takes off and

803
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: he runs. They pursue him on foot and tackle him,

804
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: and in this wrestling around, he grabs the knife from

805
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: the officer's belt and he stabs the officer in the

806
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: neck and the officer grabs his gun, shoots him and

807
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: kills him.

808
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and did the officer survive?

809
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: The officer survived. Maurice died. And you know what's sad.

810
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: This is what his defense attorney talks and.

811
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 2: Says, Can I guess yeah, as the position that he

812
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: was fearful of police. Yeah, because he's had reason right

813
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 2: for years to be fearful of being convicted of a

814
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: crime he didn't commit.

815
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: Right. And also, what they don't they never ended up

816
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: telling these boys, or I think really even telling the public,

817
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: which it came out in this docu series, was that

818
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: original twenty two caliber gun that Maurice took didn't match.

819
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: Didn't match.

820
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 2: Wait, so I never matched. They knew that from the beginning. Yeah,

821
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 2: And they were focused on the Rocky Horror Picture show.

822
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: They were focused on those boys and getting confessions out

823
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 1: of them.

824
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: When it wasn't even the right guy.

825
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: It wasn't the right gun. No, and that came out later.

826
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: But this guy, you're right, he suffered from such severe PTSD,

827
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: from being interrogated so many times, from being arrested, from

828
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 1: being put in prison, from thinking that he was going

829
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: to go on trial.

830
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: He had no they're gonna get me after something else,

831
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: They're going to put me back in that jake exactly.

832
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 1: So when he can you imagine, I can just picture

833
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 1: him in a car running a stop sign, which we've

834
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: all rolled through at some point.

835
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 2: Right, it's an infraction, an infraction.

836
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: But then he ends up losing his life, which, by

837
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: the way, he shouldn't run from police. He shouldn't have

838
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: grabbed the knife. He shouldn't never understand what exactly I mean,

839
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: they had every right to defend themselves, and.

840
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, police got stabbed in the neck exactly stop exactly.

841
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: But but his reaction wasn't I'll just pull over and

842
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: get a ticket, right, like a reasonable person would. His

843
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: reaction was to flee.

844
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: And he may not even know why he was pulled over.

845
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: He saw police, saw flashing lights start there after me.

846
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: Again exactly, so you know this case, to me is

847
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: very sad. We were talking about this. It's a tragic case.

848
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: First of all, it's tragic in the fact that there's

849
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: four young girls that lost their life one night for

850
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: for no reason at all, horrifically, horrifically lost their lives.

851
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: Then you've got these four boys who were interrogated.

852
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: They were set back in their life for years, probably

853
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 2: I don't know what track they were on, you know,

854
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: to adulthood, but they were set back.

855
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 1: And then the two of them spent ten years in prison,

856
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,959
Speaker 1: one set back ten years, one on death row, one

857
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: in for life. Yeah, and then you've got these families

858
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: that are grief stricken, and it's just this investigation did

859
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: nothing but cause more more tragedy, more tragedy, more loss

860
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 1: of life, more grief, more pain. Maurice And you can

861
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,959
Speaker 1: honestly say, Maurice Pierce, even though he was a punk

862
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 1: when he was a kid or whatever, and he brought

863
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: a gun to the mall, if that kid never took

864
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: a gun to a mall that day, he'd still be alive.

865
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: The whole catalyst of this entire situation with these four.

866
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 2: Boys, and this maybe a bit of a stretch, but

867
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: they might have also had better luck with finding the

868
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 2: actual criminals. Yeah, you're right, because if they were focused

869
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 2: all their energy on these boys, these young men, and

870
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 2: they're overlooking all other things, right, sort of like the

871
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: bridge guy, they overlooked that post it note that had

872
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 2: his phone number on it or whatever, because he was

873
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: at the scene at the bridge last week, and the

874
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: Delphi murders could very well be the same thing. Right.

875
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: They get tunnel visions.

876
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, they overlook other there's a term for it. I

877
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 2: forgot what it is, but where they overlook other suspects,

878
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: they're focused on one, and.

879
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: Then when they focus on that one, they do everything

880
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: possible to try to make it fit.

881
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, like point a gun at their head, right like that.

882
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: Twenty seventeen was the twenty fifth anniversary of the yogurt

883
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: shop murders. The Awesome Police reaffirmed that the case remains

884
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: open and active. The same DNA profile that was found

885
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: from Amy ey Or she was the one that they

886
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: got the vaginal DNA from, is found on other evidence,

887
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: but by different laps. So that's another thing that they

888
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: make clear that the investigator makes clear because they've had

889
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: three different sets of investigators, right, this case has been

890
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 1: going on for thirty years, so you had your original investigators,

891
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: then you had a second investigative team. Now you have

892
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: a new cold case investigative team on it. And they

893
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: said that they clarified that this DNA sample could not

894
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: be contaminated because they've also sent it to two different

895
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: labs getting the same test results back, so they're adamant

896
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: that it is a completely different and want sect. In

897
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, it was the thirtieth anniversary, authorities confirmed

898
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: that the DNA profile is of an unidentified male, but

899
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: it still does not match anyone in the national database. However,

900
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: you know what, I read something, and this is interesting

901
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: to me because I don't even really understand what this means.

902
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: But in twenty twenty, new DNA testing matched evidence from

903
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: the crime scene to an unidentified man. The Austin American

904
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: Statesman reported. This was where I read it. Though the

905
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 1: FBI allegedly has a matching sample, they have not handed

906
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: it over to Austin investigators due to legal complications. Now

907
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: what do you think that means? To me? That sounds

908
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: like they they It says the FBI allegedly has a

909
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: matching sample, but they haven't turned it over to the

910
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: Austin investigators due to legal complications.

911
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: So that's legal complications.

912
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: That sounds to me like they that the FBI made

913
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: some match, but.

914
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 2: They're not going to give that the legal complications are.

915
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: It's not the people we thought it was, That's what

916
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: it is. It's not the suspects.

917
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: I don't understand how you can say that there's a

918
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: that they made some match, but they're not going to

919
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 1: hand that information.

920
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 2: They say it was a match, No, it says.

921
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: It says allegedly that they have a matching sample, but

922
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: they have not handed it over to Austin investigators due

923
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: to legal complications. Present day, the case remains unsolved. The

924
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: investigators continue to hope advance forensic technology will identify them

925
00:46:59,120 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: as That's.

926
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 2: How it is. It's the legal complications.

927
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. If I don't know,

928
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: I don't.

929
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: Oh, it's very very well be saw. I told you

930
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: they swept stuff under the road, and then you brought

931
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: that out.

932
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. See, I can't imagine that the FBI would have

933
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: a match and then they don't want to turn that

934
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: information over. I don't know, but I read that. I

935
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: think I read that the.

936
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 2: Legal complications, it's the chief of police. Yeah, that's legally.

937
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: Complicated, right, Are there any signs that would point to

938
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: anyone else? Like, how are we ever going to find this?

939
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: The crime scene shows that the girls were in the

940
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: middle of closing up the store when this happened. It's

941
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 1: believed that two guys were the last in the shop.

942
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: Police identified fifty three customers that came in between four

943
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: thirty and eleven PM and a number of whom saw

944
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: these two men. Are they the killers? Why were they

945
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: never identified? Also, I do remember originally do you remember

946
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: they also originally blamed or brought in those two Mexican

947
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: There was a Mexican guy that was like a gang

948
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 1: leader or something. Oh yeah, yeah, two two of them,

949
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: I believe, and then they said that he did it.

950
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 2: Well, then they were they were in they were they

951
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 2: were in Mexico. There were since then, like whenever they surfaced,

952
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: they were in Mexico. And then the authorities here wanted

953
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: an extra item or whatever, and then they claimed that

954
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 2: the Mexican government said no, we'll prosecute them, and then

955
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 2: that's it. That's that's as far as I heard.

956
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: Well, they were also they also said that their interrogations

957
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: that they were slapped around and beaten, hit and to

958
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: get their confessions, because allegedly they gave a confession as

959
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: well and said.

960
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 2: They did it, and the national practice they.

961
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: Just recanted the following day and and said that you

962
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: know that they were.

963
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know, this is terrible. Oh but

964
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 2: didn't they match the composite too well?

965
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that comps you know, composite drawings bother me.

966
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 1: It's like it looks like you drew it and then

967
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't. I mean, the they never.

968
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,959
Speaker 2: Look I don't know. Sometimes they're pretty good.

969
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just think back to the Delphi

970
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: want to remember they had two different composites and like

971
00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: one's an older guy.

972
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not saying they're always dead on, but it

973
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: is interesting if they look similar.

974
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another theory possibly with this case. All four

975
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: girls were members of the f FA, which is the

976
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: Future Farmers of America, and could some guys have from

977
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: the FFA have done it because they were also they

978
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: were bound and gagged and you know when when they

979
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 1: you know, when they rope animals and stuff, they bind

980
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: them like the legs and stuff. And yeah, so I

981
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: don't know. That's another theory that maybe could have been explored.

982
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, but anyway, I'm.

983
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 2: Gonna go with the theory that the police sucked at

984
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: the investigation.

985
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: That's a good theory, yeah, allegedly. All right, guys, thank

986
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 1: you so much for listening to Legally Brunette. We hope

987
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode. Also, just another reminder that we're

988
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: on our own feed so please find us, follow us,

989
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 1: leave a review. We'd love to hear what you guys

990
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: have to say. And again, if you have any cases

991
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: that you think are interesting that you would love for

992
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: us to cover. I always love the feedback, So thanks

993
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: for listening.

994
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: Thank you.

995
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: M