1
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,640
Speaker 1: Just start by telling me, like back in the day

2
00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, how did you know Vincent and Shelley?

3
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:22,080
Speaker 2: I knew Vincent from school.

4
00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,920
Speaker 3: Of course, Shelley's Burgers played them on baseball team. I

5
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 3: didn't heard from there last Jorge Lace Vincent all the time,

6
00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 3: and we had all campus flunch, so we would we

7
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 3: win hob in this car. He got his car before

8
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,360
Speaker 3: I got mine, so we would go eat lunch.

9
00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,159
Speaker 1: That is the voice of a man who knew Vincent

10
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,600
Speaker 1: and Shelley. He was also one of the kids from

11
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,320
Speaker 1: the group who in nineteen eighty three cruised up and

12
00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 1: down the strip passing through Piss Hill on Friday and

13
00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:58,120
Speaker 1: Saturday nights.

14
00:00:58,720 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 4: What kind of car did Vincent?

15
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,759
Speaker 3: Half seventy or seventy one money Carlo that generation?

16
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 1: So besides his father's Mone Carlo, he also had a

17
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:10,199
Speaker 1: Monte Carlo.

18
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, the one that they were found in was

19
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,400
Speaker 3: like a seventy eight to eighty models that generation. His

20
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 3: was the Earth generation, I see.

21
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:22,560
Speaker 4: And so what kind of kid was he?

22
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:32,080
Speaker 3: Oh? Gosh, quiet, nice, probably do anything for anybody, very quiet. Uh,

23
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,120
Speaker 3: Marshall arts stuff like that. So he popped in the head.

24
00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,320
Speaker 3: He had but I never saw he anyone, but he

25
00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,040
Speaker 3: was always had a smile on his face.

26
00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,840
Speaker 1: Right, did he talk about Shelley at all?

27
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:48,960
Speaker 3: He didn't really talk about her that much. I knew

28
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,720
Speaker 3: that they saw each other in the hall and stuff

29
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 3: like that, but actually I didn't.

30
00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 2: Realize that she. I thought she was a little.

31
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 3: Old right around she was fourteen. No, he never said anything.

32
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:03,160
Speaker 2: I want to say that.

33
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,560
Speaker 3: I mean, like, he didn't say anything. Man E'SI like,

34
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,519
Speaker 3: you know, they don't mind me dating her, they.

35
00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:09,359
Speaker 2: Think she's too young.

36
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,120
Speaker 3: He never said anything.

37
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,880
Speaker 1: What about the high school itself? I mean, was there

38
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,120
Speaker 1: a lot of meth around the high school at the time?

39
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 3: Okay, how we're doing a freshman so I know that

40
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 3: Parker County was pretty young back heaven.

41
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:30,360
Speaker 1: We called it crank crank, ice, meth, same drug, different

42
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:31,040
Speaker 1: street things.

43
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 3: I know that there was some around, but I found

44
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,040
Speaker 3: out about it later.

45
00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,200
Speaker 1: And what about the law enforcement in the town. What

46
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 1: kind of reputation did law enforcement have?

47
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,240
Speaker 3: Okay, what was for PD was fifteen pretty high up there.

48
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 4: What about Parker County Sheriff's Department?

49
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,080
Speaker 3: All we ever heard was that's kind of sort of

50
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,119
Speaker 3: how I found out about the mess twelve. But I said,

51
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 3: we called it crank. We heard that, you know, there

52
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,600
Speaker 3: might be some shady things going on with the share

53
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,960
Speaker 3: of you know, I mean nothing anybody ever proved the things.

54
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 3: You know, how bad rooms show host some goodness about

55
00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,359
Speaker 3: people's businesses and things like that. Always just always heard

56
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,200
Speaker 3: that that he was always kind of shaky or had shady.

57
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 1: No matter who I spoke to from that group, the

58
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 1: conversation always came back around to the meth trade and

59
00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,800
Speaker 1: how some in law enforcement were deeply intertwined with that world.

60
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,400
Speaker 1: The Parker County meth culture back then was so fixed

61
00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,600
Speaker 1: in everyday life. Even if you weren't involved or a user,

62
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:54,160
Speaker 1: you undoubtedly heard about how certain members of law enforcement

63
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,240
Speaker 1: were so complicitly involved that God forbid, if you were

64
00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 1: to somehow threatening their means of wealth in any way,

65
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 1: you had better start planning your funeral. The frightening part

66
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,440
Speaker 1: of it all, even after forty plus years, no one,

67
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,839
Speaker 1: not a prosecutor, a fellow law enforcement officer, or federal

68
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 1: authorities had done anything about it, not even looked into

69
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 1: the possibility that corrupt law enforcement officials had their hands

70
00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,240
Speaker 1: in the drug trade cookie jar, or if they had

71
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,880
Speaker 1: hurt people. Quite frankly, nobody seemed to give a shit

72
00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,960
Speaker 1: about the murder of two kids. And so it makes

73
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,680
Speaker 1: you wonder if justice even has a voice left in

74
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 1: this world. And so the night of the murder. So

75
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about that night. You go out,

76
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, your cruising the strip. I guess is that

77
00:04:58,800 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 1: how it works?

78
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,000
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, South Maine was our strip. I was on

79
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 3: my first car day that night, and so I had

80
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 3: to go and talk to the parents, of course, and

81
00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,640
Speaker 3: then we went and we were cruising, and we went

82
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,200
Speaker 3: and saw it and grabbed something the drinks and saw

83
00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,760
Speaker 3: Vincent shilling there in Vinson's parents' money car. Now he

84
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,400
Speaker 3: just put some craig or Ss wheels so on his money.

85
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:23,599
Speaker 1: Carl.

86
00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,280
Speaker 3: I was surprised that he wasn't in it, but we

87
00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,520
Speaker 3: just pulled up next to him and don't wave and whatever.

88
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,160
Speaker 3: And I would say, I want to say, it wasn't

89
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,200
Speaker 3: dark if it was March's it got dark here, you know,

90
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,599
Speaker 3: still kind of early, So it's probably right at that

91
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,200
Speaker 3: time because I would have had to have been hauled

92
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,719
Speaker 3: by nine o'clock, so it was before that. But I

93
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,919
Speaker 3: you know, like I said, this song pain you know

94
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 3: they waved and uh, we got our drink or whatever

95
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 3: we did. That was it.

96
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,560
Speaker 1: You didn't say anything, you didn't talk to him.

97
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,839
Speaker 3: No, just know it's just your usual hay, where y'all

98
00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:03,479
Speaker 3: up to? What do y'all do? And I may have

99
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,280
Speaker 3: asked him, I mean he was in his mom's car,

100
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 3: not his, but as far as got out and spoke

101
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 3: and got in each other's car, No, I don't remember

102
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,240
Speaker 3: if there was anybody else there talking to him, but

103
00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:17,720
Speaker 3: it was just.

104
00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 2: Them in the car.

105
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 3: And and I say, it was just a normal like

106
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 3: you would see somebody out, you know, on the Friday

107
00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:26,040
Speaker 3: night or whatever.

108
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 4: And how did he seem?

109
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:29,679
Speaker 3: Uh?

110
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:30,960
Speaker 2: Normal?

111
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I'm I have a good memory.

112
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 2: I have a real good memory.

113
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,240
Speaker 3: But I mean I think I would have noticed if

114
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,480
Speaker 3: he would have seen apprehensive, and even though we worked

115
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,600
Speaker 3: super Buddies, Lifetime Buddies or nothing, I think he would

116
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 3: have I know, he would have said something if he

117
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,600
Speaker 3: was uncomfortable, or if they if they thought somebody was

118
00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,000
Speaker 3: following them. I'm I'm just about guarantee had said because

119
00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,920
Speaker 3: you know, we knew pretty much everybody, so he were saying,

120
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,520
Speaker 3: you know, hey, you know someone that drives this top

121
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,240
Speaker 3: or this top or this kind of shrug. If he

122
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 3: was worded or amprehension time, I'm just about guarantee he

123
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:14,520
Speaker 3: would since.

124
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 1: Something he went on to say, nothing seemed off. Shelley

125
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,080
Speaker 1: and Vincent were happy to be out together for the

126
00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,000
Speaker 1: first time. This was about nine PM, a time which,

127
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 1: as I developed new information from a new source you'll

128
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:39,120
Speaker 1: soon meet in this final episode, becomes vitally important. At

129
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,679
Speaker 1: some point that night, according to a source related to Shelley,

130
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:49,160
Speaker 1: she and Vincent actually left the strip and drove about

131
00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: twenty five minutes northeast into the town of azl, Texas,

132
00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,960
Speaker 1: for a reason I will soon get to which will

133
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:06,680
Speaker 1: surprise most everyone close to the kids. What was your

134
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,119
Speaker 1: first thought when you heard that there was a double

135
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,040
Speaker 1: murder like that?

136
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 3: I guess my first thought would have been they got

137
00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:15,960
Speaker 3: the wrong people.

138
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,120
Speaker 1: And as time went on, what were people talking about?

139
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 1: What were they saying happened?

140
00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,200
Speaker 3: There's someone that lived on that road. Somebody says that

141
00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,560
Speaker 3: maybe he had something to do with it. I don't

142
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,240
Speaker 3: know how somebody's We heard that it had come up

143
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:32,840
Speaker 3: on maybe come.

144
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:33,680
Speaker 2: Up on a drug deal.

145
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:34,160
Speaker 5: I heard.

146
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,199
Speaker 3: The thing is about that license plate number supposed to

147
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,240
Speaker 3: be looking for that other money Carlo with other likeness

148
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 3: one number of different license plate numbers. Heard those Craiger

149
00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,760
Speaker 3: assesses that he bought stolen and he brought him from

150
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,080
Speaker 3: someone else, But that person did supposed and stole and

151
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,080
Speaker 3: the person found out about his feeling.

152
00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 1: Those Craiger tire rims, my source mentions, were expensive, a

153
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,880
Speaker 1: luxury item. As a kid of the late eighties myself,

154
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,640
Speaker 1: I recall every gear head in town wanting Craiger rims

155
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,040
Speaker 1: for their hot ride. So to add to everything else,

156
00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,520
Speaker 1: this source says he heard the vehicle Vincent was driving

157
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 1: ultimately got the kids killed. The story was that the

158
00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 1: Monte Carlo Vincent was driving on that night had the

159
00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,120
Speaker 1: same license plate number with only one number different from

160
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,600
Speaker 1: a Monte Carlo up there cruising the strip at the

161
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,480
Speaker 1: same time. The theory being someone was looking for a

162
00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,839
Speaker 1: guy in a Monte Carlo who owed money to drug

163
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:45,840
Speaker 1: dealers and thought it was Vincent.

164
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,760
Speaker 3: I know there was another Many Carlo who was exact

165
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,080
Speaker 3: same color. We heard that the last number of the

166
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,000
Speaker 3: license plate was one off. We heard no one was

167
00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,679
Speaker 3: that that's actually who car Jerry I don't know has

168
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,240
Speaker 3: heard about there being another winning Sank cover novel with

169
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 3: What's different on the license.

170
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,800
Speaker 1: When I hear theories like this, I chalk it up

171
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:21,280
Speaker 1: to active teenage imagination and high school hallway chatter. Another

172
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,320
Speaker 1: rumor to add to the list, the odds that the

173
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,360
Speaker 1: same car with the same license plate number with one

174
00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:34,520
Speaker 1: number off being up there at the same time are astronomical.

175
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 1: Come to find out, According to Shelley Colliflower's uncle, Ernest

176
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:47,880
Speaker 1: Frosty Colliflower, who you'll hear from in this episode, Vincent

177
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,680
Speaker 1: and Shelley did not stay on the strip long on

178
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,800
Speaker 1: that night. They took off somewhere near nine pm and

179
00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,640
Speaker 1: drove twenty five minutes out of town and wound up

180
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,000
Speaker 1: inside a meth cook house where they saw something and

181
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:14,560
Speaker 1: someone they shouldn't have seen something in someone in fact

182
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:30,480
Speaker 1: that led directly to their death previously on Paper Ghosts,

183
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:31,800
Speaker 1: and we.

184
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 2: Know that they were killed with the car running.

185
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,640
Speaker 6: So that's already a huge question for me as someone

186
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,520
Speaker 6: who's emmy, Why are you not documenting all the exterior

187
00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,120
Speaker 6: injuries because you haven't documented.

188
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,520
Speaker 7: Any you don't have to work back in you know,

189
00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:48,760
Speaker 7: you see them guys, they all got the crew cook.

190
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,920
Speaker 3: They're tall, they all wear can can out with.

191
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:52,120
Speaker 2: That thing go up.

192
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:53,800
Speaker 3: They've all come down there.

193
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:54,800
Speaker 8: They won't see.

194
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 4: My name is em William Phelps.

195
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,400
Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist in the New York Times, bestselling

196
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,360
Speaker 1: author of dozens of true crime books. This is season

197
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:25,719
Speaker 1: five of Paper Ghosts, the Texas Team Murders.

198
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:29,199
Speaker 2: Hi.

199
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,360
Speaker 1: My name is em William Phelps. I'm a journalist. I'm

200
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 1: working on a narrative podcast about a bunch of teen

201
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 1: deaths around Texas during the eighties, and several people I've

202
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: spoken to in and out of law enforcement have mentioned your.

203
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 4: Name and that maybe you could help.

204
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,760
Speaker 1: I'm not sure in which way, but they just mentioned

205
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:53,160
Speaker 1: your name.

206
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,080
Speaker 4: I thought i'd give you a call, as I suspected.

207
00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,760
Speaker 1: Neither of the names I have been censoring throughout the

208
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 1: called me back after my attempt at contacting them. It's

209
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,440
Speaker 1: hard to ignore the fact that over a dozen sources

210
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,240
Speaker 1: have told me basically the same story with both of

211
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,400
Speaker 1: these names Debt Center, and once again I need to

212
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,400
Speaker 1: remind you that neither have been charged. These men are,

213
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:28,079
Speaker 1: as we speak, innocent. It does not matter what anybody

214
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:33,280
Speaker 1: says about them. There is still no direct evidence linking

215
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 1: either of them to these murders. I cannot confirm whether

216
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,199
Speaker 1: they were interviewed recently by law enforcement because law enforcement

217
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,600
Speaker 1: cut contact when they realized how close I was getting

218
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:54,360
Speaker 1: to Shelley and Vincent's case. In this podcast, you've heard

219
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:59,319
Speaker 1: from Lieutenant Johnny Qualls, the current Weatherford Police Department cold

220
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:05,320
Speaker 1: case investigating Shelley and Vincent's murders. He spoke to me

221
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 1: he agreed to be recorded for the podcast. After that conversation,

222
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 1: I began emailing him about our next conversation and what

223
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,560
Speaker 1: I would like to talk about. Qualls and I made

224
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,760
Speaker 1: another day to speak. I then asked Laurie Kates to

225
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 1: post a message on the Justice for Shelley and Vincent

226
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 1: Facebook page asking anyone with information about the case to

227
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:39,160
Speaker 1: contact me. It was I have to admit a litmus test.

228
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,560
Speaker 1: After that Facebook post, Qualls blew off our scheduled date.

229
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 1: He said he was busy. We made another date. I

230
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 1: sent him more questions, each email, revealing some of the

231
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:59,880
Speaker 1: information I was hearing. He stopped communicating with me entire

232
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,920
Speaker 1: after that, so I sent him an email on June nineteenth,

233
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:11,680
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, mister Qualls, is there any chance we

234
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 1: can speak again?

235
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 7: Or no?

236
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,480
Speaker 1: If you could kindly let me know I'd appreciate it,

237
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 1: so I can either move on or plan another time

238
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:28,600
Speaker 1: and day with respect, he ghosted me. I have learned

239
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,880
Speaker 1: that silence in certain situations speaks so much louder and

240
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 1: in volumes. Weatherford Police Chief Lance Arnold left the force

241
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 1: several years ago, given the impression before his departure that

242
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,760
Speaker 1: he was interested in pursuing the case with investigators making

243
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 1: one more big push to solve it. Private investigator Mel

244
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,360
Speaker 1: Mitchell got in touch with Arnold after he retired. When

245
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 1: I learned this, my first comment to Mel was, after

246
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 1: you interview him, get him to agree to talk to

247
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:17,400
Speaker 1: me for the podcast. One of the things Arnold told

248
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,360
Speaker 1: Mel was that the Weatherford PD quite recently had reached

249
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,120
Speaker 1: out to the Texas Rangers once again for help.

250
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:33,840
Speaker 8: And so when I talked to Arnold, Arnold told me

251
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 8: He's like, yeah, they'd actually reached out to the same

252
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,400
Speaker 8: group of people and had sent them the entire files

253
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,640
Speaker 8: of what they had to these individuals, the same group

254
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 8: that we reached out to, and that they had been

255
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,440
Speaker 8: working the case like a year and a half and

256
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,720
Speaker 8: they were kind of the same position that Weatherford was in.

257
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 8: Like they didn't have enough solid evidence to move forward

258
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 8: on anybody. We didn't really get into the evidence as

259
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 8: much as one too. I mean, like I said, we

260
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 8: really have about an hour to talk. But I was

261
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 8: really surprised that he was. He was very open and

262
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,040
Speaker 8: the fact that you know, hey, I'm actually you know,

263
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 8: I totally get the podcast. You know, there needs be

264
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,440
Speaker 8: life shine on this. Maybe it'll kind of force things

265
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 8: to kind of come forward and the right thing will

266
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 8: be done. I did tell him, I'm like, I'm not

267
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,080
Speaker 8: out to get Weatherford, especially with the current PD. There's

268
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 8: a lot of gout people out there that have no.

269
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:15,880
Speaker 4: Clue who these kids are.

270
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,159
Speaker 8: They're not from weather for their new officers. You know,

271
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,439
Speaker 8: we're not trying to do some kind of you know

272
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,919
Speaker 8: witch huntel weather repeating. But now on the original law enforcement,

273
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 8: you know, the original investigators is a little bit of

274
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:27,680
Speaker 8: a different story because I think a lot of them

275
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,200
Speaker 8: were corrupt in their own capacity. And he's like, well,

276
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 8: if that's the case, and that's on them, He's like,

277
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,680
Speaker 8: because I can tell it out as cops, we hate

278
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 8: dirty cops. So he's like, if y'all find some improprieties

279
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,800
Speaker 8: or you know, corruption on their behalf on the original

280
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,240
Speaker 8: investigators and stuff like that. Then have edit you know,

281
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:46,200
Speaker 8: more power to you.

282
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,480
Speaker 1: I think, based on everything I have been able to

283
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 1: report in this series, improprieties would be the understatement of

284
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 1: the entire podcast. Here is justice for Vincent and Shelley.

285
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: Facebook administrator Laurie kets once again, it's.

286
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,440
Speaker 5: The DNA that I was told by a former Texas

287
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 5: ranger that there was DNA loaded into Kodas and there

288
00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,639
Speaker 5: hasn't been hit yet, and he said the next step

289
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,639
Speaker 5: would be to test somebody in Vincent's family to make

290
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,359
Speaker 5: sure because we've been told DNA profiles plural, there were

291
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 5: DNA profiles, they were loaded in Dakota's hadn't been hit yet,

292
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:44,040
Speaker 5: So he was talking about eliminating, making sure that Vincent

293
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:50,360
Speaker 5: Junior's DNA was eliminated from those profiles, and then the next.

294
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:57,479
Speaker 9: Thing would be to collect trash test that DNA against

295
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 9: what's been loaded in Dakotas, and.

296
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,919
Speaker 5: Then if there was a match, they would issue a

297
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 5: warrant for his DNA.

298
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,440
Speaker 4: On paper, or rather on a podcast.

299
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 1: All of that sounds great, exactly how cold case work

300
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,840
Speaker 1: can unfold in the real world, but in this case,

301
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:26,879
Speaker 1: in this County with these law enforcement agencies involved. I'm sorry,

302
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 1: and I'm not one to bash law enforcement, but I

303
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 1: have a growing fear that justice will never be served.

304
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,399
Speaker 1: And if I was to put all of the cold

305
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 1: cases I've ever worked on on a board and someone

306
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 1: asked me to point to the one which was most solvable,

307
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:53,359
Speaker 1: this case would certainly be it. The answers are here,

308
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:59,160
Speaker 1: It just takes someone with enough balls and the willingness

309
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 1: to set their career ambitions aside and go right at

310
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 1: As I concluded what I could do for this case,

311
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 1: there was one nagging question in the back of my

312
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 1: mind I needed to answer. Within everything I'd found out,

313
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 1: I had not seen any evidence of Shelley being raped.

314
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 4: If she was, it could.

315
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 1: Change the entire dynamic of the motive and offered the

316
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 1: potential of DNA evidence being left behind. But these murders,

317
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 1: to me, felt like an execution, a gruesome attempt to

318
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: make two people unsee what they might have seen on

319
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 1: that night. Mel Mitchell had a long conversation with a

320
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 1: Weatherford Police Department investigator involved in reopening the case twenty

321
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 1: years ago.

322
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 8: Well that's when that's when I made him very uncomfortable

323
00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 8: talking about the DNA.

324
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 1: Like, man, he was scared.

325
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 8: He was very he was very, very concerned speaking about

326
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 8: the DNA. I mean, he couldn't look at me in

327
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 8: the face, and he's literally pawing at the ground like

328
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 8: I mean, he was shaking. And so because he's trying

329
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 8: to deny the DNA, at first, he's like, well, I

330
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 8: I don't know where it come from. And I'm like,

331
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 8: that's funny, because you had a front page newspaper article

332
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,119
Speaker 8: and I was like, I explain the whole pature, what

333
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 8: he looked like and everything. And that's when he started

334
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 8: getting really really nervous.

335
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 6: I'm like, so, where would that DNA have come from.

336
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: One of the problems is that the department has been

337
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 1: routinely caught going back on its word about the case, and,

338
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,880
Speaker 1: if we want to be frank about it, have perhaps

339
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: even misled the community back in the early two thousands,

340
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: and what looks to me to be a stunt to

341
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 1: moderate public discourse turning against the department with regard to

342
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,959
Speaker 1: the case. The local newspaper ran a front page story

343
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: accompanied by a dramatic photo of detectives announcing they were

344
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 1: reopening the investigation and making a determined effort to solve Shelley.

345
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 4: And Vincent's murders. Now, that's good publicity, But if.

346
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 1: You recall, some of the most compelling witnesses with allegations

347
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 1: pointing to certain suspects told me they were never interviewed

348
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: during this supposed reinvestigation. Mel Mitchell, when she looked at

349
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 1: what they were promising and what they actually did, found

350
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 1: a very big difference. What would it mean to you

351
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: to solve this case? Why are you so fired up

352
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: about this case?

353
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 6: I think for me, it's digging into it and talking

354
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 6: to as many people as I have over this time period,

355
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 6: and including former law enforcement. You know, there's a deep

356
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 6: sense of a cover up. Even though we don't know

357
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 6: one hundred percent what the cover up is or it entails,

358
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 6: it's pretty hard to deny that it was pretty much

359
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 6: a cover up. I mean, you can't be this stupid

360
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 6: as a whole department to make this many mistakes. And

361
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 6: so the more I would start digging this, the more

362
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 6: irritated I would get, because you just have to look

363
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 6: at this and think, Okay, this has to be intentional,

364
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 6: Like this has to be intentional to have this many

365
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 6: mistakes all over the place and to have this kind

366
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 6: of evidence lost and oh I can't find this, or

367
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 6: the whole scene was completely trampled. I mean, just it's

368
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 6: kind of mind blowing. And to me, it would mean

369
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 6: that you know, whoever is behind all this or whoever

370
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,479
Speaker 6: was involved, you know, I think that they should they

371
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 6: should have to pay the consequences for it. It's just,

372
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 6: you know, because the fallout getting to know these two families,

373
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 6: the dynamics that fall out these two families have been

374
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 6: through since these two kids murders is just horrendous. I mean,

375
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 6: it's been devastation. And then on top of that, like

376
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 6: we talked to the witnesses, they've been severely affected, horribly affected.

377
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 6: I mean some of them were threatened, some of them

378
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 6: have been harassed. I mean some of them like left

379
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 6: the state. And so this is almost a closure for

380
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 6: them too, because they're still looking over their shoulders, you know,

381
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 6: forty two years later, they're still afraid to this day.

382
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 6: And so when I was talking to them, like, you know,

383
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 6: it's not just about solving it for these two kids

384
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 6: and their families, but it's also just kind of giving

385
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 6: closure for you guys too, and everything y'all went.

386
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 8: Through and knowing you can finally like kind of lay

387
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 8: your head down at night and not think, Okay, do

388
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 8: I still need to keep looking at my shoulder because

389
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 8: I'm still afraid of something or someone.

390
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 6: So it's a lot deeper than just the two kids,

391
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 6: because of course that's the primary, but it's got a

392
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 6: massive ripple effect in this.

393
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: That sentiment is a delicate aspect of every cold case.

394
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 4: One.

395
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: We rarely consider the effect the case has on witnesses

396
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: who have had the nerve to stand up and talk

397
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: about their experiences.

398
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 4: They deserve justice as well.

399
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: I need to go back now to a thread of

400
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: the case we touched upon earlier, because as I got

401
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: word that Frosty Collieflower was willing to speak to me,

402
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: a familiar name.

403
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 4: Came back up.

404
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: How would Weldon Kennedy in that whole scenario fit into

405
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: the murder of two teens in Weatherford, Texas when there's

406
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: really no connection between the two.

407
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 6: So in late nineteen seventies, Weld and Kennedy had been

408
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 6: caught for stealing a whole bunch of radio shot calculators,

409
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 6: like the really nice ones back in the day that

410
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 6: everybody had to have, you know, like sixty five dollars apiece. Well,

411
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 6: he'd stolen a whole truck load of these calculators, and

412
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 6: he turned around and sold them to people or like

413
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 6: businesses in Weatherford, and they were turned around selling for

414
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 6: like ten fifteen dollars apiece.

415
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: And so that's kind of.

416
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 8: How they got caught where you know, of course FEDS

417
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 8: are looking into what happened is calculators, and there Lo

418
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 8: and Beholder's local businesses selling the calculators. He did a

419
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 8: little bit of time uply for that, and then afterwards

420
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 8: he got pretty heavy into bring in some migrants from

421
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 8: Central and South America to work in his factory.

422
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: Then mel locked onto another threat, which dovetails perfectly with

423
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: what I learned next from Frosty Collie Flower.

424
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 6: I found out they were trying to get an indictment

425
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 6: against another classmate of the teens at the time, and what.

426
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: Was the mode of surrounding that.

427
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 6: That Shelley may have had a prior relationship with this

428
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 6: individual before she started dating Vincent, but I haven't been

429
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 6: able to find anyone that can verify that. In fact,

430
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 6: we found a woman who claims that she was dating

431
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 6: this individual at the time of the murders. I mean

432
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 6: not to say boyfriends don't cheat.

433
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 8: We know that, but we haven't be able to find

434
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 8: anybody else really substantiate that claim.

435
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: Within all of these different stories, the truth is there,

436
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: and it's almost as if it's so close you can

437
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: reach out touch it.

438
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 6: I believe in this case that there are witnesses, and

439
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 6: I do believe that there are people out there today

440
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 6: alive that absolutely know what happened. And I'm hoping that

441
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 6: by doing this podcast that they will maybe be willing

442
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 6: to finally come forward and give the family members and

443
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 6: even the witnesses just some closure to all this. Because

444
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 6: if others are willing to come forward and are still

445
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 6: very fearful today, why not more Because it's not just

446
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 6: not just these few witnesses. I just hope that someone

447
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 6: does the right thing and kind of I mean, even

448
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 6: if it's anonymously, I don't even care, just someone that

449
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 6: comes forward and gives us the actual rundown of what happened,

450
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 6: because we know enough that if we hear the right story,

451
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 6: we're gonna know. Okay, that's it now, we know that

452
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 6: fits into all the pieces we have. That's that's what happened.

453
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 3: Earn a pad Flower, And.

454
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: I'm putting nil on the door.

455
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 8: The Communicans that aren't call Flower, We're gonna put gloves

456
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 8: ring nail on.

457
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: As my investigation began to wind down, I was able

458
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: to land an interview with someone we all believed would

459
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: never speak. A few episodes back, I mentioned that Mel

460
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: and I were searching for Frosty, trying to find and

461
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: convince him to talk about what he knew. As it

462
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: turned out, it was Laurie Cats who tracked Frosty down

463
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: and decided to make a cold call and visit him

464
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: in person. And just as Mel and Laurie had suspected,

465
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: Frosty was not only full of new information, but he

466
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: claimed to know what happened to Shelley and Vincent on

467
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: the night they were murdered. I'm recording this call from

468
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 1: my podcast Paper Ghosts season five. Is it okay, ernest

469
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: Collie Flower? If I use your voice for the podcast?

470
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: Yes, but going asty?

471
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll call you Frosty.

472
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: We'll get to earnestly dad.

473
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: Okay. So, so tell me about Shelley. You know you

474
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: you saw a lot of.

475
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 4: Her while she was growing up.

476
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 7: I did win in early years because when she started

477
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 7: getting a little bit I guess up in her arcades.

478
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: I didn't see as much of her because I don't know.

479
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: I've moved. I've moved west home, and I'll starting to

480
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: be in the being the life. I'll do it. My

481
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,719
Speaker 2: whole life was she was.

482
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 7: She was like everybody loved you, and it didn't matter

483
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 7: where she's did. She wasn't going to shut up. She's

484
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 7: going she was gonna chime in and say her two

485
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 7: points and giggling cut up.

486
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: And and so tell me a little bit about your brother.

487
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 4: Kind of guy is Ronnie?

488
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 7: But uh, I already I say this because he's just

489
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 7: me and him don't get along, and it's not I

490
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 7: love him and everything, but he helped me. He blames

491
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 7: me for a lot of things. And I was working

492
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 7: on a hole of him and all this went down.

493
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 7: But because all of the got here that in that

494
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 7: last he actually I can't it might have been part

495
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 7: of it. He's got a sorry, he's got a real,

496
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 7: real grouchy attitude.

497
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: No, I won't tell you something about Ronnie. He does.

498
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: He did. He kill me how.

499
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 7: Even actually we didn't have a good RESI had him

500
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 7: and her would wake up the next day.

501
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: And he cold pieces.

502
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 7: Pizza together and and uh, as she called him.

503
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: She didn't call him Ronnie. He called him dead.

504
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: Laurie Kate's tracked Frosty down. He said he would chat

505
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: with me. I called him, I texted him, but he

506
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: never responded. Then Mel Mitchell paid him a visit and

507
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: he agreed as long as Mel was there in the

508
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: room with him, and based on what he told Laurie

509
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: and Mel, Frosty was going to clear several things up.

510
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: He says he knows what happened and who was behind

511
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: both murders, but there is a part of this the

512
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: families are not going to want to hear. Tell me

513
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: a little bit about this lifestyle. So you know, how

514
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: do you get into it? How do you become Frosty?

515
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 7: I start off being an added and as most ads,

516
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 7: everybody gets in trouble and you're gonna if you're gonna

517
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 7: use here, you're going sale, or you're gonna you're gonna

518
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 7: have to steal you or you're gonna have to do something.

519
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 7: I didn't believe it stealing, so I would try to

520
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 7: find something cheap and turn it back on the market

521
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 7: to get into the lot.

522
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: How did you learn how to start cooking meth are?

523
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 7: I started working for uh. When I say working, I

524
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 7: was selling drugsful and one of the helpers was it

525
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 7: that it would help make it well. They got all

526
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 7: messed up and they found off the.

527
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: Formula to it.

528
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 7: And when they sat it off, I went on and

529
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 7: rod it down and I started and parts of it.

530
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 7: I knew that the cooking a year and a half

531
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 7: and I wasn't I wouldn't need for the money I

532
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 7: was in.

533
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: I was in it just then. Everybody stayed high. My

534
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: little crew, we had a good time. It made it

535
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: hard for him to GIFs.

536
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: Frosty said he kept his business small. He didn't want

537
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: to draw much attention to himself, but everyone wanted that

538
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: dope he was cooking. They just couldn't get enough of it.

539
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: It's hard to deposit fifty thousand dollars cash in your

540
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: bank and account for it right.

541
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I never.

542
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 7: Would get over about twenty or thirty and then I

543
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 7: just stopped. I stopped selling, and he was just were

544
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 7: just pointed down until we brought our money.

545
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: Frosty Colliflower has this rugged look about him, white wiry

546
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: hair receding, kind of a pop marked face, busy eyes,

547
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: and a cockiness that comes from the life he led

548
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: in the information he harbors along with the knowledge of

549
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: the underworld he was once such a big part of

550
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: in Parker County. As many who have seen the television

551
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: series Breaking Bad understand, when you run the best product,

552
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: you begin to develop the most power and control of

553
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,959
Speaker 1: the market, but also attract the biggest players in the game.

554
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: And who did you sell to for the most part

555
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: a middleman, and then the middleman spread it out around

556
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: around users or.

557
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: I had a helper named He.

558
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: Gave me the names of his helpers, as he called them.

559
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: One particular guy who Frosty became friends with was his

560
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: main connection to the bigger players. And this guy, whom

561
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: Frosty trusted without question, would go out into that world

562
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: and mix with everyone. One day, not long after the murders,

563
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: the guy came back with some news, a narrative of

564
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: what took place when Shelley and Vincent were murdered. And

565
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: who would be your biggest competition at the time.

566
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 7: Well, there's a lot of people worry about that, but

567
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 7: there's so much money I I didn't worry about I

568
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 7: got the formae.

569
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: People that missed that did he know?

570
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 7: I knew they're forminga And because it made a certain product.

571
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 10: Get it.

572
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: They just knew, They just knew.

573
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 7: Who he was. And the fans come to town and he'd

574
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 7: stopped cooking, and they couldn't understand why the fans put

575
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 7: eight towns goes out.

576
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 2: You kept throwing it out on the streets.

577
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 7: And uh yeah, then finally they figured out did I

578
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 7: figured it out and was pumping it out. But they

579
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 7: didn't have the quality control like I did. When you

580
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 7: do it, you don't want to do trash or the week.

581
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 7: You want to do the best that you can make.

582
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 7: So I'd always try to do the best I could

583
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 7: do it.

584
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 4: And where did you cook it?

585
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't just cook that shit anywhere, right,

586
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: they can't.

587
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: I cooked it overall very straight. I cooked you that

588
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: I cooked it in the middle, Zard. What you gotta

589
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 2: do is you got to run there.

590
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 4: Uh.

591
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 7: It goes out through a condenser and you got to

592
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 7: run that off into your pine soil and water discharged,

593
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 7: and then you won't get nothing but a pine salt

594
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 7: discharged smell.

595
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: What he means is the chimney discharged the scent of

596
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: pine sal, not the chemical smell of the dope. Do

597
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: you ever have any run ins with Kennedy, the sausage

598
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: king there.

599
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 7: The Throe runners I had with him was when I

600
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 7: was a little bit younger.

601
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: I had I had run in and I said he

602
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: was he was a scary person because he keeped my

603
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: door in.

604
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 7: One tiuse, I was living on Bryant Street with this

605
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 7: gird lady and he keeped my door in and I had,

606
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 7: I had stuff, but he was he at all old

607
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 7: place and he said, god fright and got anything.

608
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: I told him like, hell no, we ain't got nothing.

609
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 7: Because you know, if we fign anything, it's gonna make

610
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 7: me man, We're gonna do something to you. And when

611
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 7: he said do something to you, he scared me. Anyway,

612
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 7: Later that night hit bat. Two hours later, we're outside

613
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 7: and all that all that four was seven dollars in

614
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 7: my pocket.

615
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: They found no drugs, and.

616
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 7: I said, it's just me and him. I said, fry

617
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 7: shame you say I'm a drug dealer. I got step dollars.

618
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 7: I'm don hur at this apartment. Ain't got no where.

619
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 7: You're sure there's a middle as you have and we're sweating.

620
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,919
Speaker 4: And every lamp during this raid.

621
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: As they were outside, Frosty says he turned to the

622
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: guy and began to talk about Shelley, and I says.

623
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: Whoever killed my kniece?

624
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 7: After running this, nobody cares.

625
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: I got this blank look. You wouldn't believe what I mean.

626
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: If you could see his face, she could tell it.

627
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 7: Stook a nerve, he says, you know what, cause Ryer,

628
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 7: you're read? He says, miss bullshit.

629
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: When there and told him, guy, boys, I ain't not

630
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: heard this.

631
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 7: Still laud They loaded up in five minutes, says Gone.

632
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: The name I censored was a law enforcement official. The

633
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: implication Frosty makes is that once he mentioned Shelley and

634
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: Vincent's murders with a kind of knowing wink, they backed

635
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: right off. I asked him if any of what I

636
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: had heard about someone in law enforcement being a big

637
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 1: time dealer was true or just another one of those

638
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 1: Texas stories that seemed to grow like a healthy herd

639
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: of cattle with each passing generation.

640
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 7: Okay, this is probably the early eighties.

641
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 2: There's a guy.

642
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 7: There's a guy that took the sofa, though which it

643
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 7: takes more of it.

644
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: It takes I couldn't mess, but it takes.

645
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 7: More of a laboratory and chemicals took to cook that way.

646
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 7: He got me to go to Houston to pick up

647
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 7: the chemicals because you couldn't.

648
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: Get them everywhere.

649
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 7: And when you went and got them, it's like you

650
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 7: had to sign for them.

651
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 2: Give you a license.

652
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 7: And yet she won't come into the place, and they

653
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 7: locked the doors locked and beat on it. In the

654
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 7: lock it lets you in. And when you come out,

655
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 7: he said, don't mess around, he says, because they're watching

656
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 7: that place. He says, you get on down road, and

657
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 7: then I had to pull them onside the road and

658
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 7: go through all the chemicals to make sure they wasn't

659
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 7: a bug any.

660
00:39:58,719 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 2: And cold.

661
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 7: Yeah, he was going cook in Parker County. Had given

662
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 7: ten thousand dollars a month and mean at that first

663
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 7: installment and they bust yet good.

664
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: He continues to explain that there were several dope houses

665
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,479
Speaker 1: all over the county where cooking took place. He said,

666
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: men in high positions hung around to pick up dope

667
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: and collect money, and the entire doping community was in

668
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: one way or another connected, which was where the motivation

669
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: and opportunity to kill his niece and Vincent, according to Frosty,

670
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: entered the situation, and that order came directly from the top.

671
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: I am not one to take conspiracy theories seriously, even

672
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: when my better judgment tells me to take a closer look.

673
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: I just think when you step into the ring of conspiracy,

674
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: your logic is tainted right away, and whatever you find

675
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:21,479
Speaker 1: seems to fit right into that conspiratorial mold, and even

676
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: more dangerous, you begin to write off obvious evidence as

677
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: part of the conspiracy and wind up in this sort

678
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: of algorithmic echo chamber. A conspiracy is not what we

679
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 1: have in this case. Corruption is a different animal entirely.

680
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: Part of it involves gaslighting the public to a very

681
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: large extent, and when you are in law enforcement, it

682
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 1: doesn't take a lot of people to make that happen.

683
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: You just need them in the right positions. With the

684
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 1: lack of movement in this case, along with the disappear evidence,

685
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say at this point that

686
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: corruption within the investigation into Shelley and Vincent's murders was

687
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: actively going on. By whom and why? Well, those are

688
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: different questions, and the answers need a federal probe coming

689
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: in and taking over, which I hope will happen once

690
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: word gets out. It's the only hope left for the

691
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: families ever getting justice. Before we continue, I want to

692
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: say upfront some of what will be reported here is

693
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: going to hurt the victims' families. There is no way

694
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: around this information for me as a journalist searching for

695
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: the truth. But if some modicum of hurt can lead

696
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: them to closure, then I believe it's worth the pain.

697
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 7: She went toward itica and forty at days, whether you

698
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 7: took it a life buck at the store.

699
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 2: He'd go back to their community and his trainer.

700
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 7: Housese.

701
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 1: Frosty, is talking about where the murders took place. He

702
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: then mentions two names.

703
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: They got married. But anyway, there was living out there

704
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: and I used to flap in the store.

705
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 11: Well, come and find out that was the dope house

706
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,479
Speaker 11: supposedly there the kids they came out there just wanted

707
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 11: to score a little bit.

708
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 12: And uh, I ain't know Shelly was involved in that

709
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 12: or anything, but she was. She wasn't in the dope

710
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 12: world like what she's thinking. She was not heard to Chay,

711
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 12: just wanted to buy a little bit.

712
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 2: You know. So she was so to me.

713
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 13: She was so pretty and bubbly. He didn't shot me

714
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 13: to shout, and she was going out he shot me

715
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 13: in it.

716
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 2: It shot me the situation that, yeah, it all happened,

717
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. More issue, I know she's

718
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: inters you know what I'm saying.

719
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 14: That boy, that Spanish boy, she called me so and

720
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 14: came out there at the same time, and they killed

721
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 14: him because this fright worked to get out and should

722
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 14: he started freaking out and they can't hear it.

723
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 7: He told me that this girl said she has seen

724
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 7: seen the body shaking, actually been shot and this guy's

725
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 7: not alive.

726
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: I can I can only tell you what he's said.

727
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 2: He and he was. He wasn't just somebody is so

728
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 2: for me, he was a friend of mine. I mean,

729
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: I thought, the world.

730
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: Is this case for me is so entirely solvable. It's

731
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: almost as if there is a lack of desire to

732
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: see closure. It's hard for this New England or to

733
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: fathom or even admit it exis. But there is a

734
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: different form of justice in the Southwest and a strong

735
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: sense of blue protecting blue. We have that up here

736
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: in the Northeast to a certain extent, as well as

737
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: across the country, but in the Southwest and especially Texas,

738
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 1: like most things, it seems to be on a much

739
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: bigger scale.

740
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 13: My lady Kimes say, why how could you have something

741
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 13: to do with it that? When an art take girl

742
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 13: for mine or you know what I'm saying.

743
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 1: I asked Frosty to go through everything one more time

744
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: and add any additional information he could think of.

745
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 4: He paused for several minutes. Then this.

746
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 15: Totally one in most you knows run that doult circle.

747
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 15: And as totally one of them was out there, it

748
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 15: got keep happened out. Suppose they got happened out.

749
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 16: There at like you're going to Hazel before you got

750
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 16: before you got Diaseelo. There's a little community there had

751
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 16: store turned up in there that was dope West, the

752
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 16: spot that kids went out there to get get a

753
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 16: little bit of dope and soft and they ended up

754
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 16: killing that boy and Shady freaked out and they killed her.

755
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 2: How hard this was?

756
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 10: Like I said, I was in I was in that

757
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 10: ottle dope circle for a while and it was helping

758
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 10: me get rid of some dope. And he talked too,

759
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 10: and though says she was there and saw the shaking body.

760
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,479
Speaker 1: Frosty names a source I had spoken to and said

761
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: this source witnessed the murders but had kept that knowledge

762
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: from me. He also names two different men from those

763
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: I have been censoring as the two individuals responsible for

764
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: the murders, names I had never heard, adding how my

765
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: source holds the key to it all?

766
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 2: Would you use that name? Make you say sound statement?

767
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 13: Saying that you told him you saw the shaking bodies

768
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 13: after the show?

769
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 2: If I mean for sure it's probably the kuners point

770
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: or one twenty two.

771
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: Indeed, I went back to my source, the person Frosty names,

772
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: and I asked about witnessing any of this, and if

773
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: she knew the names Frosty had mentioned. So I heard

774
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: about this a dope house and asel do you ever

775
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: ever know about a dope house? And asel?

776
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 15: Of?

777
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: No, I didn't mess with Now I'm gonna tell you

778
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 2: right now.

779
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 3: He was dangerous.

780
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: And then another name came up, you know, a guy named.

781
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

782
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 17: I remember he was just another little white trash boy.

783
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 4: Was he a doper?

784
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: Or I did? I remember his name, but I.

785
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 3: Don't recall what he did.

786
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: She went on to say she had no idea about

787
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: the murders, She was not there, had never heard the

788
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: names I was told, And then, as you can hear,

789
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: she changes the subject abruptly and brings up the name

790
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: of another meth cook and dealer.

791
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 17: You know, I just remember his name. I think he

792
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 17: was dark headed, maybe, but I don't remember.

793
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 3: You know.

794
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 2: What somebody brought up.

795
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: To me the other day was, oh, yeah, I've heard

796
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: that name, and that was that was run down by

797
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: law enforcement.

798
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 4: That lead really hard.

799
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: They really went after that pretty hard, and they didn't

800
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 1: find nothing. I asked her about Weldon Kennedy.

801
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 4: Did she know him? What kind of guy was he?

802
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 17: I stated to Kennedy's, you know, if if I if,

803
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 17: I told you my mother had me when.

804
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 3: She was young, sixteen, so I kind of grew.

805
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 2: Up on my own because my mother had to work.

806
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 17: And so what I did was, I stated to Kennedy's,

807
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 17: I was all always welcome there.

808
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 3: They was always good to me.

809
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 17: I'm not gonna say that Wildon wasn't underhanded.

810
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 4: Because he was.

811
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 3: He hired Mexicans, you know.

812
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: Which was a big deal back then.

813
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 4: Well he was. He was busted for that, right, I mean,

814
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 4: he went to prison.

815
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 3: Yeah he was, Yeah, he was.

816
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 17: Uh, those people were good to me.

817
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 2: You know, I was a lonely little.

818
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 17: Kid, and uh I was allowed to stay at their

819
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 17: house while my mother worked.

820
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: So This information I got is from a really really,

821
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,320
Speaker 1: I mean really great source. I mean this source is

822
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: so close and connected to everyone in that world.

823
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 17: I never even seen even close to Wilden, never seen

824
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 17: him in the same spot. Was it Kennedy Sausage a lot.

825
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 17: I can't say that Wildon was a part of anything.

826
00:50:58,200 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: He was.

827
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 17: He was the nervis ninny that owned Kennedy Sausage.

828
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: That's how I.

829
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 3: Looked at he.

830
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: He's being portrayed to me by a lot of people

831
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: as you know, a big player, big I'm going.

832
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 4: To tell you this.

833
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 17: I was standing right in the middle of all of

834
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 17: the Kennedy Kennedy Sausage. I remember the first year that

835
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 17: Kennedy Sausage made a million dollars can part time out there.

836
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 17: I remember Thanksgiving and Weldon. I never saw any of

837
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 17: the darkness that people want to portray him as. I'm

838
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 17: not saying he didn't he wasn't up to no good.

839
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 17: I'm saying I never saw not, not any of it.

840
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 17: I mean, he was just a moneymaker.

841
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: But now the opposite end of that, he was he

842
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 2: was bad, bad stuff. Oh my god, he was a

843
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 2: piece of shit.

844
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: All that being said, here is the gut punch of

845
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: what you've just heard. Frosty says that when investigators came

846
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: to him, he told them the exact same story he

847
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: gave to me, and they did nothing, Which leads me

848
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: to is Frosty the best source for information a known

849
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: admitted meth cook and dealer who spent time in prison

850
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: for his deeds. Possibly not, but it's a lead that

851
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: should be explored. Nonetheless. In a March nineteen eighty three

852
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: article on the front page of the Fort Worth Star Telegram,

853
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: Tom vic the obviously young twenty eight year old mayor

854
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: of Weatherford, said he'd give the police department whatever it

855
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: needed to solve the case. This kind of thing won't

856
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: be permitted here, Vick is quoted. The people won't put

857
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 1: up with it. Max Smith, the DA doubled down in

858
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: the same article, adding, we have a strong law abiding

859
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: community here. As we know, nothing has happened since that time,

860
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: over forty two years later, as I record this, and

861
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: contrary to that political gibberish coming from the mouths of

862
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: the powers that be in the county, that people have

863
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 1: put up with it, and this kind of thing has

864
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: been permitted. The answers are there just waiting for someone

865
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: with the moral fortitude and guts to step in, step up, and,

866
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: as former Chief Arnold told Mel, do the right thing.

867
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: This case epitomizes the failures of our justice system and

868
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: the criminality of some to turn their head while holding

869
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: out an open hand. It cannot be underscored enough that

870
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: federal authorities need to be called in to clean this

871
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: mess up. If they do, the victims' families and those

872
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,919
Speaker 1: with the courage to speak out can at least live

873
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,240
Speaker 1: the rest of their days knowing that Shelley and Vincent's lives,

874
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: however short, mattered. I want to thank every source who

875
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: spoke to me on and off the record. Your courage

876
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: is admirable. Also, there is no possible way I could

877
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: have produced this season and conducted the investigation I did

878
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: without the boundless courage and help of Mel Mitchell and

879
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: Laurie Kate's.

880
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 4: They are two of the.

881
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: Most determined, brave, and honest women I have ever had

882
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,879
Speaker 1: the honor of working with. This season would have never

883
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 1: happened if Laurie Kates many years ago had not sent

884
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: me an unsolicited email asking if I could help. If

885
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: you have any information about this case, please go to

886
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: the Justice for Shelley and Vincent Facebook page and send

887
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: a private direct message to the administrator. Your privacy will

888
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: be held in the highest regard. You can also reach

889
00:55:47,400 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: out to me personally at emwilliam Phelps dot com. Please

890
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with M

891
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: william Phelps, where I delve into a new.

892
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 4: Missing person and cold case murder each week wherever you

893
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 4: get your favorite shows.

894
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: Paper Ghost season five is written and executive produced by me, M.

895
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 4: William Phelps.

896
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive producer Catherine Law, Production by

897
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: toc Boom Productions, Audio mastering and mixing.

898
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 4: By Brandon Dicker.

899
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: The series theme number four four to two is written

900
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: and performed at Thomas Phelps Tom Moore