WEBVTT - Murder House 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:09.160 In this Idaho murder case, the decision was made right 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.280 or wrong to demolish that house. Do you have an 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:12.920 opinion on that. 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:20.680 I can see no viable, tangible reason for that home 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:25.040 to be destroyed before the trial is complete. 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:30.720 Is there an immediacy for a jury going to a house? 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.440 Psychologically speaking, I would say yes. 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:45.040 This is the Idaho Massacre. A production of KAT Studios 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:55.120 and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode two, Murder House. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:59.040 producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.200 We were reminded last episode of the details of the 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.000 grotesque horror that occurred at eleven twenty two King Road 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:13.640 on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, when Madison Mogan, Kaylie Gonzalvez, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:21.200 Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle lost their lives. After the murders, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.680 it was seen by some as a forensic scene or 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.760 a tomb, or a macabre reminder of the horrors that 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:31.959 happened there. But before all that, the house, located just 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.160 off campus and on fraternity Row, was full of life. 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.959 It was a party house where friends gathered. Here's on 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.319 air reporter Antonette Levy, who has covered the case on 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:47.560 the ground since the very beginning. I asked her to 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.120 describe the house and what it felt like standing in 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:50.640 front of it. 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.840 This house makes me sad, and it made me sad 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.160 because it was frozen in time. I'm standing there looking 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.880 at the window and there's a pair of pink cowboy 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.200 boots in the window. When I was there in December 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.239 of twenty twenty two and then returned in early January 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:10.360 after the arrest. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:12.840 What made me so sad is there was this string 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.320 of lights across the back porch and they were on. 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.440 They were on. There was a couch out there, like 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.120 this leather couch. As a mom, I'm like, what are 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:24.960 you doing with a couch outside? But you know that 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.000 you're they're college kids. You know, it's a college house 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.600 and this is a place where you know, it was 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.440 a party house. But it was frozen in time in 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:36.400 the worst possible way. The lights were on the entire time, 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.400 from the night this happened till I got back in January, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.840 and there's the couch covered in snow, and you know, 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.240 you could kind of see into the kitchen. Everything stopped 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.200 because this awful thing happened at this house that should 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.520 have just been full of kids and laughter, and if 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:57.160 they were going to not be there, it should have 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.880 been because they were going home for Thanksgiving and Christmas. 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.720 Everything was shattered. That was my impression of it. I 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.400 have mixed feelings about the demolition of the house. I 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.600 understand that Ethan Chapin's family supported the demolition of the 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:15.119 house because it had become this horrible, macabre tourist attraction, 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.240 which I think is horrific. But at the same time, 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:20.960 I would hate for something to come up at the 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.280 trial where it was needed. So I see both sides 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:24.760 of the coin. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.040 As Angeinette says, there are two sides to this coin, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.480 and most people fall strongly on one side or the other. 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.360 The family of the only male victim, twenty year old 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.480 Ethan Chapin, saying in a statement, we're supportive of the 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:42.960 decision to take down the King Street House for the 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.320 good of the university, it's students, including our own kids, 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:47.800 and the community of Moscow. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:51.200 The house was considered the largest piece of evidence that 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:51.760 they had. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.480 The university defending their decision to move forward. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.280 Well, I understand he's from a legal standpoint. 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:57.600 Everyone was finished with the house. 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:59.720 You kind of want to scream from the mountaintops, just 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.440 let be leave it alone, don't touch it until the 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:03.080 trial's over. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.640 The house was ultimately demolished on December twenty eighth, twenty 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.800 twenty three. It took one day and occurred to thirteen 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:16.760 months after the murders. Shortly after the demolition, Stephanie has 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.760 a discussion with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan and data 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.680 analysts body move In. You may remember her from Netflix's 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:25.799 Don't Have with Cats. 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:31.200 That particular house that they were murdered in was very specific. 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.920 It was a unique layout, but the house itself was 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:40.360 owned by the campus and highly debated turn of events. 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.200 They decided to destroy the house to get rid of 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.520 it altogether over winter break, and it's been a really 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.200 heated discussion. On the one hand, you know that for 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.039 the university, it's a bit of a real heartbreak on 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.839 the town, on the school, also for students who went 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.719 there who were maybe triggered emotion only by this heinous 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.480 crime that happened while they were attending school. Just generally speaking, 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:10.560 probably just feels hideous to have this marker exist. And 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.200 on the flip of that some of the family members 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.320 and including some people participating in the trial, say that 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.320 this is an active investigation site and that from a 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.880 forensic standpoint, it has to stay intact at least until 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:24.880 after the trial. 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:26.800 I spend a lot of time on the Internet, as 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:28.760 you all know, That's what I do. And I talk 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.760 to a lot of people who live in Moscow and 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.520 they are all affected by this house. They have to 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.800 drive by it. It's in a really dense neighborhood. The 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.080 jury is never going to be allowed to go in there. 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:41.920 They're never going to be allowed to go in there. 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.599 There's no the acoustics are different, flooring's been removed, walls 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.040 have been removed. I have photos and you can see 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.080 all the dry wall that's been cut out of Maddie's room. Like, 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:54.560 they're not going to go in there. It's just not 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.719 going to happen. It's so uncommon for a jury to 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.000 visit a crime scene so on com. 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.880 But it happens though. By the way, sidebar one of 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.160 the victims has a sister and a brother who do 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:10.520 it also still attend the university. So if I'm a 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.160 family member of one of the victims, I want justice, 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:15.720 or if I'm even a family member of the accused, 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.800 and i want justice. How can we destroy the forensicstru. 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.040 Here's my real problem with it is the fact that 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.920 there are homicides that take place every single day. There's 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.200 a homicide going on right now as we speak somewhere 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:29.720 in America. I can promise you that they're not going 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.120 to go out and tear down that structure. This is 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.640 an outlier. As far as tearing down a structure. 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.400 It is incredibly rare for a jury to visit the 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.440 side of a murder. It's also rare for a building 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.080 where a murder took place to be demolished. However, the 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.200 ones that fall into either category are usually multi victim 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:56.040 murders that are exceptionally heinous and highly publicized. Some cases 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.320 where the juris did go back to the literal scene 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.200 of the crime can often include cases where they may 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:05.760 hinge on some form of integral spatial logistics. For example, 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.640 Michael Peterson, where jurors walked the stairs where his wife died, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.840 Alex Murda so jurors could appreciate the scale of the 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:18.280 large property, and the twenty eighteen Parkland school shooting, which 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:19.320 Joseph tells us. 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:25.160 About I even reflect back to Parkland, which I covered extensively, 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:32.080 and look, I understand that the interior of Parkland was 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.880 not changed at all. One of the most moving moments 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.560 is where they talk about how when they led the 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:43.240 jurors into that structure. Remember Parkland had taken place on 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:47.720 Valentine's Day. There were dried, crumbling roses laying on the floor, 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.760 teddy bears with hearts on them, there were still blood 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.120 stains on the floor. And it too is government controlled. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.679 And let's face it, the University of Idaho's a government 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:01.640 entity and it is owned by the University of Odaho. 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.400 Of all the divisive factors in this divisive case, it 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.720 seems the homes demolition drew more opposing opinions than almost 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:15.200 anything else. Here's journalist Chris Bargo, who spent a lot 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.960 of time covering the case. I started by asking him 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.400 about the money spent on security of the home leading 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.760 up to the demolition. It was seven hundred dollars a 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.720 day for securing the home alone, clocking in at one 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.760 point two million dollars months before the home was even 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.840 torn down. Here's Chris. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.200 The brunt of that is really being absorbed by the university. 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.400 The university has really kind of cost a lot of 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.800 money for them because of security reasons. You know, obviously 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:44.960 when the house, the house was up for so long 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:46.679 and that house had to be protected that entire time, 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.880 people they had twenty four seven watch dealing with this 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.679 influx of people on campus. You know, safety measures for students, 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:53.040 but there's not really much you can do to get 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:55.680 around those costs. And because it took place in a university, 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:57.280 there's a lot of costs that come along with that 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:58.920 because they want to make sure the students feel safe. 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:00.840 They want to make sure the students protected, and they 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:02.240 also want to make sure that this major piece of 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.920 evidence is house is left untouched. When there are thousands 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:07.439 of people descending on this town who probably want to 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.319 do nothing more than to get inside it or take 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:10.600 a look around. They have to make sure no one 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.480 get went in that house. So that was a really 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:13.600 really big cost to bear. 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.320 What are your thoughts on the demolition of the house. 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.920 I do not think that the defense of prosecution would 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:23.280 be okay with it if they thought there was any 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.360 possible chance there was even like a little piece of 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.280 evidence inside there. I think on the most sort of 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.160 human and basic level. The last thing in the world 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:31.280 do you want those kids to deal with, which we 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:32.800 are already dealing with so much, is have to see 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.200 that house. It's probably a horrible reminder. So for that reason, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.280 I'm really glad you know that it's not there. I 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.160 don't know how much the scene was going to be 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:41.439 helpful in that case. At this point, it seems like 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.040 they're in trouble even placing him at the scene, So 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:44.800 I don't know what was going to be accomplished. Maybe 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.360 by having anyone visit the house, But like I said, 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:48.560 I think that if there's any sort of bit of 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.200 evidence that prosecutor saw that could get out of it 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:51.520 or bring people to the house, they would have kept 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.040 it up. And clearly they didn't think there. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:53.360 Was out there. 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.679 The FBI prosecution and defense teams had access to the 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:02.680 home on multiple occasion. The prosecutor's last visit was just 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.880 one week before the demolition. The president of Idaho University, 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:11.760 Scott Green, released a statement on December fourteenth, twenty twenty three. 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.959 He wrote, it is the grim reminder of the heinous 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.319 act that took place there. While we appreciate the emotional 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.000 connections some family members of the victims may have to 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.760 this house. It is time for its removal and to 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:29.840 allow the collective healing of our community to continue. Let's 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:32.640 stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:44.000 Stephanie continues her conversation with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:45.760 and data analyst Body Movin. 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.880 Once it's gone, it's gone. The most intriguing images that 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:54.240 I saw of the entire coverage relative to Idaho was 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:58.280 there was a snap moment where you had agents that 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:02.800 were back in the brush line rear of the second 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.560 floor where the sliders are, and they were squatted in 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.640 the brush and they were looking back towards the building. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.680 They were looking for fields of view. At that point 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.000 in time, What could you observe from this low growth 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.640 scrub that was back there, these trees. Is it a 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.559 location where the perpetrator could have parked. Is it an 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.760 observation point where they could have seen people moving around 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:25.880 at night? Is it at that key moment that he 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:28.679 decided that when those lights went down, that he was 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.920 going to make us move and make entry into that environment. 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.440 All reference for that is gone now. 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.760 Not to mention a big piece of the defense's case 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:41.320 right now is that Brian Coberger claims to have an alibi. Again, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.040 we're talking about potentially more than one person being there 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.200 or a different set of people being there where there 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:50.840 are multiple attackers. It was Brian not even there in 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:54.360 the first place. Why would you destroy something? And I've 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:56.880 learned this from you, by the way, the plumbing could 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.640 have evidence in it. The concrete in an around the 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:02.720 location and could have evidence in it. 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:04.960 Yeah, let me say something about the plumbing real quick. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.040 And this brings the car into play. You know, they 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.120 think they've got a timeline settled here, but let's just 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.280 say that an individual may have taken time to have 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.199 gone and clean themselves. Did you take drain traps out? 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.840 Did they run a camera down in the drain? I 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.000 think my big thing is in anybody that's kind of 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.319 listening to us, our friends out there. If you live 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.400 in a home that has a stair an internal staircase, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.320 what does footfalls sound like on the treads on the 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:33.800 interior staircase? Can you hear that? Can you hear somebody 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.439 wrestling about if you're on the second floor and it's 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.280 going on the third floor, can you hear it? If 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:40.000 you're in the basement. We don't have a point of 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.640 reference anymore. Still, can't take the jury back out there. 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.200 You can't have them go into any one of these 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:51.280 rooms where these ghastly murders were committed and asked questions. 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.240 Jury can't ask a question based upon well, gee, look 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.439 at that window and how you can see and from 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:58.880 there to here, and how far away is the distance 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:00.800 from the entrance to the bedroom room to the fly 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.160 stairs down to the second floor. Who would it take 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.920 me to egress from the third floor to the second 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:07.800 floor landing and then down the hallway. 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.520 You think about the feeling it a clown jurs. You know, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:11.880 we saw that in Pike County. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.800 Stephanie's referencing the murders of eight members of the Rodent 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.200 family that occurred in Piked in Ohio. It's the topic 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.280 of another Katie Studios podcast and a case we worked 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.520 closely on with Joseph. 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.560 After the massacres occurred there and right before the trial, 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:29.080 the jury was. 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.360 Put on a bus and set. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:35.640 Yes, they were out to observe the landscape where the 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.120 homes where those murders happened had occurred. And you know, 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.200 we were always told it was extremely powerful. There's nothing 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:46.000 like being in the location, especially when it's still furnished, 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.440 and those personal belongings that have now been removed for 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:53.400 sentimental reasons, they should remain in that crime scene to 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:55.360 really make it personal. 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:56.200 That's part of it. 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.640 This is the most personal thing imaginable. Why would you 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.160 make a game day decision a year before the game 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.640 by destroying what could potentially be relevant. Doesn't this speak 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.000 to the original point that the house should not have 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:11.040 been destroyed. 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.120 This is just my opinion, but these scans are so 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:22.480 advanced and so well done. The house is unsafe for 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.280 people to be in. And I don't know what kind 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.720 of situation the rooms are in, but I can't imagine 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.200 they didn't remove pieces of the floor from the both bedrooms. 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.440 It's not safe for this jury to be in well, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.280 and that's what the documents say. The documents say the 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.840 house is too dangerous and that both the defense and 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.880 the prosecution agreed that this is not a place that 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:44.200 they're going to be bringing the jury. 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:50.000 I do hope that it was sufficiently documented. I know 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.840 that they did do Pharaoh images within that structure and 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:54.840 also externally. 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.840 We asked Joseph for clarification on what Pharaoh images are 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:01.840 and how the Pharaoh system works. 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.360 You first see the earlier iterations of these things when 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.760 they're referred to as total stations. They were made famous 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:16.000 by accident reconstructionists, where you have this one machine that 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:20.320 they could essentially plot in it from a digital standpoint, 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.440 a motor vehicle accident, because to work a motor vehicle 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.080 scene is to say the very least time consuming and 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.359 the calculations are mind blowing. So they took that platform 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:38.720 and expanded it relative to this Pharaoh device Faro. But 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.680 you can take this Pharaoh device and place it at 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:46.520 a scene and just imagine it's got the ability to 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:52.000 spend on its axis thousands of different directions and all 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.400 of the while it's shooting out these little lasers and 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.640 it's taking thousands of photos, and so it can digitally 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.080 take those images and compile them and it gives you 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:05.200 very detailed information. It also has GPS that's in it. 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.720 You take it into a confined space like a built 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:13.240 dwelling like this, and the detail is very remarkable, and 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.000 you can create this three D world. It is quite 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.880 fascinating to see. So that's what a Faro station is essentially. 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.280 There's been some talk of some three D model that 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.000 may be created by the FBI lab in Quantico and 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.200 be presented for the court. But I got to tell you, 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:36.240 I've been out on a number of visits to homes 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.120 where homicides have taken place, and I've been there when 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.640 the juries are there, and it is the real dose 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.600 of reality for them when they show up. From an 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.720 investigative standpoint, if you have it, don't throw it away. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.760 I'm not a junk collector personally, but this ain't junk. 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.120 This is where these lives ended. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.720 And just you know, to piggyback on that, some of 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.400 the other victims' families were very against it for this 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.719 very reason. What if there is one little morsel of 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:12.040 something that could bring justice to them or frankly, get 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.119 a guilty man off. 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.520 There's other cases where they've torn the apartment down, like 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.320 for instance, Jeffrey Dahmer. However they waited for the trial. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.880 Yeah that's the rub, you know, So yeah, I get it, 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:25.359 I get it. 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.000 Yeah, I mean John Wayne Gacy's house is gone. You know, 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:29.159 there's nothing. 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.480 But Pharaoh didn't really exist like it does now back then. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.960 You know, it's a different time, and I would imagine 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.160 at some point, you know, it's going to be virtual reality, 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.919 you know, where these juries can put on a headset 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:42.399 and walk through the house at their leisure. 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.439 They can. But you know you had mentioned earlier about 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.959 the acoustics might not be the same. However, people that 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:54.000 are impaneled on juries, they're not AI. I mean, they 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.399 are living, breathing human beings that know what it's like 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.800 to walk into a house in that sense that you 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.720 get that auditory sense of a footfall, you know, and 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:05.600 I know that part of the floor has been removed 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:07.720 and all this. But when you think about just the 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.760 timing element, if I were asked how long would it 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.280 take me to make it from the sliders to that 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.080 weird that if we just go on a limb here 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.159 and say, enter through the sliders, how long would it 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.720 take to make it from there to the interior staircase 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.240 and twist and turn and get up there. And also 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.960 in the darkness, I think about all these in the 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:34.080 relationship spatial relationships and all these sorts of things. And yeah, 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.040 I know Pharaoh is great and it's going to be fantastic. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.400 I'm sure the presentation will blow everybody away if we're 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:44.320 permitted to see it, but there's still that one little 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:45.960 splinter in my brain feeling. 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.159 I often equate it to like I like to read books, 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:50.760 like the actual book. I don't want to read it 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:52.960 on a kindle. It's like I like to touch the paper, 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:53.840 like to turn the pace. 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:54.600 So it's maybe the. 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:56.960 Same kind of lake right right thing where you're there 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.199 in person and you can smell and use all all 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.320 your senses to get an idea of what happened, and 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:04.679 you're not going to be able to have that with 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:05.560 a three D scan. 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.600 The draw to the house after the murders is one 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.040 of the reasons it was demolished. People were coming from 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.240 far and wide to view the house, somewhat the horrible 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.520 intention of taking a souvenir from the scene. We felt 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.119 it was something important to try and understand, so we 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.560 reached out to psychiatrist doctor Gail Saltz, Clinical Associate Professor 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.200 of Psychiatry at New York Presbyterian Hospital and host of 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:37.840 the podcast how Can I Help. Doctor Salts have been 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.840 quoted in an article we found about our culture's obsession 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:47.840 with murder houses. Here's doctor Saltz with some information about 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.520 the phenomenon followed by Stephanie. 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:56.840 The house is sort of like the museum of it. 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.679 It's easier to imagine being part of it or in it, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.600 thinking about it the horror of it, much like if 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.359 you said, here are the clothes of the people, or 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.560 here is the weapon that was used, and you can 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.520 physically look at it and hold it. And of course 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:18.320 homes represent all kinds of things. Homes represent the place 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:23.960 where these people lived and had lives, and most people's 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.560 homes means feeling safe and feeling a joy of you 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:30.800 know whatever. It might be their family, their friends, I 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.040 mean in this case right, their friends being in college, 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:39.840 feeling invincible at that age. And of course most people 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.439 are not thinking about you could be a victim in 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:42.920 your home. 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.600 It's like, how do we prevent these kinds of things 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.040 from happening, or how do we maintain our own sense 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.119 of safety when sometimes the perpetrator is so ordinary. 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:58.480 Many people have a desire to feel a little scared 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.240 in a safe way, and we are naturally curious. The 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:07.960 identification is partially with a victim of like, how horrible 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.000 the horror of that is? Right to feel like at 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.080 that last moment, you know somebody stabbing me with the 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.879 you know, like those kinds of thoughts and imagining what's 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.880 inside that guy's head that he would plot this and 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.800 plan this and want to do something terrible. 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.480 In this Idaho murder case, interestingly, the decision was made 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.080 right or wrong to demolish that house. Do you have 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:32.879 an opinion on that? 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:35.840 I mean, there are rules and regulations about what can 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.960 happen with evidence that it can't be brought into a courtroom, 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.680 and that seems like more of a legal question. 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.080 To get that legal opinion. I spoke with KIRKNRMI, legal 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:53.480