1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: In this Idaho murder case, the decision was made right 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: or wrong to demolish that house. Do you have an 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: opinion on that. 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 2: I can see no viable, tangible reason for that home 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: to be destroyed before the trial is complete. 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 3: Is there an immediacy for a jury going to a house? 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 3: Psychologically speaking, I would say yes. 8 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 4: This is the Idaho Massacre. A production of KAT Studios 9 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 4: and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode two, Murder House. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 10 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 4: producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. 11 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 4: We were reminded last episode of the details of the 12 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 4: grotesque horror that occurred at eleven twenty two King Road 13 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 4: on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, when Madison Mogan, Kaylie Gonzalvez, 14 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 4: Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle lost their lives. After the murders, 15 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 4: it was seen by some as a forensic scene or 16 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 4: a tomb, or a macabre reminder of the horrors that 17 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 4: happened there. But before all that, the house, located just 18 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 4: off campus and on fraternity Row, was full of life. 19 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 4: It was a party house where friends gathered. Here's on 20 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 4: air reporter Antonette Levy, who has covered the case on 21 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 4: the ground since the very beginning. I asked her to 22 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 4: describe the house and what it felt like standing in 23 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 4: front of it. 24 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 5: This house makes me sad, and it made me sad 25 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 5: because it was frozen in time. I'm standing there looking 26 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 5: at the window and there's a pair of pink cowboy 27 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 5: boots in the window. When I was there in December 28 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 5: of twenty twenty two and then returned in early January 29 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 5: after the arrest. 30 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 6: What made me so sad is there was this string 31 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 6: of lights across the back porch and they were on. 32 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 6: They were on. There was a couch out there, like 33 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 6: this leather couch. As a mom, I'm like, what are 34 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 6: you doing with a couch outside? But you know that 35 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 6: you're they're college kids. You know, it's a college house 36 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 6: and this is a place where you know, it was 37 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 6: a party house. But it was frozen in time in 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 6: the worst possible way. The lights were on the entire time, 39 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 6: from the night this happened till I got back in January, 40 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 6: and there's the couch covered in snow, and you know, 41 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 6: you could kind of see into the kitchen. Everything stopped 42 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 6: because this awful thing happened at this house that should 43 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 6: have just been full of kids and laughter, and if 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 6: they were going to not be there, it should have 45 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 6: been because they were going home for Thanksgiving and Christmas. 46 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 6: Everything was shattered. That was my impression of it. I 47 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 6: have mixed feelings about the demolition of the house. I 48 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 6: understand that Ethan Chapin's family supported the demolition of the 49 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 6: house because it had become this horrible, macabre tourist attraction, 50 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 6: which I think is horrific. But at the same time, 51 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 6: I would hate for something to come up at the 52 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 6: trial where it was needed. So I see both sides 53 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 6: of the coin. 54 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 4: As Angeinette says, there are two sides to this coin, 55 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 4: and most people fall strongly on one side or the other. 56 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 7: The family of the only male victim, twenty year old 57 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 7: Ethan Chapin, saying in a statement, we're supportive of the 58 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 7: decision to take down the King Street House for the 59 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 7: good of the university, it's students, including our own kids, 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 7: and the community of Moscow. 61 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: The house was considered the largest piece of evidence that 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 3: they had. 63 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 4: The university defending their decision to move forward. 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 8: Well, I understand he's from a legal standpoint. 65 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 6: Everyone was finished with the house. 66 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 9: You kind of want to scream from the mountaintops, just 67 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 9: let be leave it alone, don't touch it until the 68 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 9: trial's over. 69 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 4: The house was ultimately demolished on December twenty eighth, twenty 70 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 4: twenty three. It took one day and occurred to thirteen 71 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 4: months after the murders. Shortly after the demolition, Stephanie has 72 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 4: a discussion with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan and data 73 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 4: analysts body move In. You may remember her from Netflix's 74 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 4: Don't Have with Cats. 75 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: That particular house that they were murdered in was very specific. 76 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: It was a unique layout, but the house itself was 77 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: owned by the campus and highly debated turn of events. 78 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: They decided to destroy the house to get rid of 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: it altogether over winter break, and it's been a really 80 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: heated discussion. On the one hand, you know that for 81 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: the university, it's a bit of a real heartbreak on 82 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: the town, on the school, also for students who went 83 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: there who were maybe triggered emotion only by this heinous 84 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: crime that happened while they were attending school. Just generally speaking, 85 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: probably just feels hideous to have this marker exist. And 86 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: on the flip of that some of the family members 87 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: and including some people participating in the trial, say that 88 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: this is an active investigation site and that from a 89 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: forensic standpoint, it has to stay intact at least until 90 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: after the trial. 91 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 8: I spend a lot of time on the Internet, as 92 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 8: you all know, That's what I do. And I talk 93 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 8: to a lot of people who live in Moscow and 94 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 8: they are all affected by this house. They have to 95 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 8: drive by it. It's in a really dense neighborhood. The 96 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 8: jury is never going to be allowed to go in there. 97 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 8: They're never going to be allowed to go in there. 98 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 8: There's no the acoustics are different, flooring's been removed, walls 99 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 8: have been removed. I have photos and you can see 100 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 8: all the dry wall that's been cut out of Maddie's room. Like, 101 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 8: they're not going to go in there. It's just not 102 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 8: going to happen. It's so uncommon for a jury to 103 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 8: visit a crime scene so on com. 104 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: But it happens though. By the way, sidebar one of 105 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: the victims has a sister and a brother who do 106 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: it also still attend the university. So if I'm a 107 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: family member of one of the victims, I want justice, 108 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: or if I'm even a family member of the accused, 109 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: and i want justice. How can we destroy the forensicstru. 110 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 10: Here's my real problem with it is the fact that 111 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 10: there are homicides that take place every single day. There's 112 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 10: a homicide going on right now as we speak somewhere 113 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 10: in America. I can promise you that they're not going 114 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 10: to go out and tear down that structure. This is 115 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 10: an outlier. As far as tearing down a structure. 116 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 4: It is incredibly rare for a jury to visit the 117 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 4: side of a murder. It's also rare for a building 118 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 4: where a murder took place to be demolished. However, the 119 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 4: ones that fall into either category are usually multi victim 120 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 4: murders that are exceptionally heinous and highly publicized. Some cases 121 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: where the juris did go back to the literal scene 122 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 4: of the crime can often include cases where they may 123 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 4: hinge on some form of integral spatial logistics. For example, 124 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 4: Michael Peterson, where jurors walked the stairs where his wife died, 125 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 4: Alex Murda so jurors could appreciate the scale of the 126 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 4: large property, and the twenty eighteen Parkland school shooting, which 127 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 4: Joseph tells us. 128 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 10: About I even reflect back to Parkland, which I covered extensively, 129 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 10: and look, I understand that the interior of Parkland was 130 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 10: not changed at all. One of the most moving moments 131 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 10: is where they talk about how when they led the 132 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 10: jurors into that structure. Remember Parkland had taken place on 133 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 10: Valentine's Day. There were dried, crumbling roses laying on the floor, 134 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 10: teddy bears with hearts on them, there were still blood 135 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 10: stains on the floor. And it too is government controlled. 136 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 10: And let's face it, the University of Idaho's a government 137 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 10: entity and it is owned by the University of Odaho. 138 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 4: Of all the divisive factors in this divisive case, it 139 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 4: seems the homes demolition drew more opposing opinions than almost 140 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 4: anything else. Here's journalist Chris Bargo, who spent a lot 141 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 4: of time covering the case. I started by asking him 142 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 4: about the money spent on security of the home leading 143 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 4: up to the demolition. It was seven hundred dollars a 144 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 4: day for securing the home alone, clocking in at one 145 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 4: point two million dollars months before the home was even 146 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 4: torn down. Here's Chris. 147 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 9: The brunt of that is really being absorbed by the university. 148 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 9: The university has really kind of cost a lot of 149 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 9: money for them because of security reasons. You know, obviously 150 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 9: when the house, the house was up for so long 151 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 9: and that house had to be protected that entire time, 152 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 9: people they had twenty four seven watch dealing with this 153 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 9: influx of people on campus. You know, safety measures for students, 154 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 9: but there's not really much you can do to get 155 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 9: around those costs. And because it took place in a university, 156 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 9: there's a lot of costs that come along with that 157 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 9: because they want to make sure the students feel safe. 158 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 9: They want to make sure the students protected, and they 159 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 9: also want to make sure that this major piece of 160 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 9: evidence is house is left untouched. When there are thousands 161 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 9: of people descending on this town who probably want to 162 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 9: do nothing more than to get inside it or take 163 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 9: a look around. They have to make sure no one 164 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 9: get went in that house. So that was a really 165 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 9: really big cost to bear. 166 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 11: What are your thoughts on the demolition of the house. 167 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 9: I do not think that the defense of prosecution would 168 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 9: be okay with it if they thought there was any 169 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 9: possible chance there was even like a little piece of 170 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 9: evidence inside there. I think on the most sort of 171 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 9: human and basic level. The last thing in the world 172 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 9: do you want those kids to deal with, which we 173 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 9: are already dealing with so much, is have to see 174 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 9: that house. It's probably a horrible reminder. So for that reason, 175 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 9: I'm really glad you know that it's not there. I 176 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 9: don't know how much the scene was going to be 177 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 9: helpful in that case. At this point, it seems like 178 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 9: they're in trouble even placing him at the scene, So 179 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 9: I don't know what was going to be accomplished. Maybe 180 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 9: by having anyone visit the house, But like I said, 181 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 9: I think that if there's any sort of bit of 182 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 9: evidence that prosecutor saw that could get out of it 183 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 9: or bring people to the house, they would have kept 184 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 9: it up. And clearly they didn't think there. 185 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 7: Was out there. 186 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 4: The FBI prosecution and defense teams had access to the 187 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 4: home on multiple occasion. The prosecutor's last visit was just 188 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 4: one week before the demolition. The president of Idaho University, 189 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 4: Scott Green, released a statement on December fourteenth, twenty twenty three. 190 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 4: He wrote, it is the grim reminder of the heinous 191 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 4: act that took place there. While we appreciate the emotional 192 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 4: connections some family members of the victims may have to 193 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 4: this house. It is time for its removal and to 194 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 4: allow the collective healing of our community to continue. Let's 195 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 4: stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. 196 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 4: Stephanie continues her conversation with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan 197 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 4: and data analyst Body Movin. 198 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 10: Once it's gone, it's gone. The most intriguing images that 199 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 10: I saw of the entire coverage relative to Idaho was 200 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 10: there was a snap moment where you had agents that 201 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 10: were back in the brush line rear of the second 202 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 10: floor where the sliders are, and they were squatted in 203 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 10: the brush and they were looking back towards the building. 204 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 10: They were looking for fields of view. At that point 205 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 10: in time, What could you observe from this low growth 206 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 10: scrub that was back there, these trees. Is it a 207 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 10: location where the perpetrator could have parked. Is it an 208 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 10: observation point where they could have seen people moving around 209 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 10: at night? Is it at that key moment that he 210 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 10: decided that when those lights went down, that he was 211 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 10: going to make us move and make entry into that environment. 212 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 10: All reference for that is gone now. 213 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: Not to mention a big piece of the defense's case 214 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: right now is that Brian Coberger claims to have an alibi. Again, 215 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about potentially more than one person being there 216 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: or a different set of people being there where there 217 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: are multiple attackers. It was Brian not even there in 218 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: the first place. Why would you destroy something? And I've 219 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: learned this from you, by the way, the plumbing could 220 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: have evidence in it. The concrete in an around the 221 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: location and could have evidence in it. 222 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 10: Yeah, let me say something about the plumbing real quick. 223 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 10: And this brings the car into play. You know, they 224 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 10: think they've got a timeline settled here, but let's just 225 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 10: say that an individual may have taken time to have 226 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 10: gone and clean themselves. Did you take drain traps out? 227 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 10: Did they run a camera down in the drain? I 228 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 10: think my big thing is in anybody that's kind of 229 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 10: listening to us, our friends out there. If you live 230 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 10: in a home that has a stair an internal staircase, 231 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 10: what does footfalls sound like on the treads on the 232 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 10: interior staircase? Can you hear that? Can you hear somebody 233 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 10: wrestling about if you're on the second floor and it's 234 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 10: going on the third floor, can you hear it? If 235 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 10: you're in the basement. We don't have a point of 236 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 10: reference anymore. Still, can't take the jury back out there. 237 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 10: You can't have them go into any one of these 238 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 10: rooms where these ghastly murders were committed and asked questions. 239 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 10: Jury can't ask a question based upon well, gee, look 240 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 10: at that window and how you can see and from 241 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 10: there to here, and how far away is the distance 242 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 10: from the entrance to the bedroom room to the fly 243 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 10: stairs down to the second floor. Who would it take 244 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 10: me to egress from the third floor to the second 245 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 10: floor landing and then down the hallway. 246 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: You think about the feeling it a clown jurs. You know, 247 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: we saw that in Pike County. 248 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 4: Stephanie's referencing the murders of eight members of the Rodent 249 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 4: family that occurred in Piked in Ohio. It's the topic 250 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 4: of another Katie Studios podcast and a case we worked 251 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 4: closely on with Joseph. 252 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: After the massacres occurred there and right before the trial, 253 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: the jury was. 254 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 4: Put on a bus and set. 255 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: Yes, they were out to observe the landscape where the 256 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: homes where those murders happened had occurred. And you know, 257 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: we were always told it was extremely powerful. There's nothing 258 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: like being in the location, especially when it's still furnished, 259 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: and those personal belongings that have now been removed for 260 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: sentimental reasons, they should remain in that crime scene to 261 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: really make it personal. 262 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 9: That's part of it. 263 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: This is the most personal thing imaginable. Why would you 264 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: make a game day decision a year before the game 265 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: by destroying what could potentially be relevant. Doesn't this speak 266 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: to the original point that the house should not have 267 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: been destroyed. 268 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 8: This is just my opinion, but these scans are so 269 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 8: advanced and so well done. The house is unsafe for 270 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 8: people to be in. And I don't know what kind 271 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 8: of situation the rooms are in, but I can't imagine 272 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 8: they didn't remove pieces of the floor from the both bedrooms. 273 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 8: It's not safe for this jury to be in well, 274 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 8: and that's what the documents say. The documents say the 275 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 8: house is too dangerous and that both the defense and 276 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 8: the prosecution agreed that this is not a place that 277 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 8: they're going to be bringing the jury. 278 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 10: I do hope that it was sufficiently documented. I know 279 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 10: that they did do Pharaoh images within that structure and 280 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 10: also externally. 281 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 4: We asked Joseph for clarification on what Pharaoh images are 282 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 4: and how the Pharaoh system works. 283 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 10: You first see the earlier iterations of these things when 284 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 10: they're referred to as total stations. They were made famous 285 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 10: by accident reconstructionists, where you have this one machine that 286 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 10: they could essentially plot in it from a digital standpoint, 287 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 10: a motor vehicle accident, because to work a motor vehicle 288 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 10: scene is to say the very least time consuming and 289 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:32,359 Speaker 10: the calculations are mind blowing. So they took that platform 290 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 10: and expanded it relative to this Pharaoh device Faro. But 291 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 10: you can take this Pharaoh device and place it at 292 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 10: a scene and just imagine it's got the ability to 293 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 10: spend on its axis thousands of different directions and all 294 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 10: of the while it's shooting out these little lasers and 295 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 10: it's taking thousands of photos, and so it can digitally 296 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 10: take those images and compile them and it gives you 297 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 10: very detailed information. It also has GPS that's in it. 298 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 10: You take it into a confined space like a built 299 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 10: dwelling like this, and the detail is very remarkable, and 300 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 10: you can create this three D world. It is quite 301 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 10: fascinating to see. So that's what a Faro station is essentially. 302 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 10: There's been some talk of some three D model that 303 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 10: may be created by the FBI lab in Quantico and 304 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 10: be presented for the court. But I got to tell you, 305 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 10: I've been out on a number of visits to homes 306 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 10: where homicides have taken place, and I've been there when 307 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 10: the juries are there, and it is the real dose 308 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 10: of reality for them when they show up. From an 309 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 10: investigative standpoint, if you have it, don't throw it away. 310 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 10: I'm not a junk collector personally, but this ain't junk. 311 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 10: This is where these lives ended. 312 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: And just you know, to piggyback on that, some of 313 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: the other victims' families were very against it for this 314 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: very reason. What if there is one little morsel of 315 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: something that could bring justice to them or frankly, get 316 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: a guilty man off. 317 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 8: There's other cases where they've torn the apartment down, like 318 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 8: for instance, Jeffrey Dahmer. However they waited for the trial. 319 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 8: Yeah that's the rub, you know, So yeah, I get it, 320 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 8: I get it. 321 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean John Wayne Gacy's house is gone. You know, 322 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 10: there's nothing. 323 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 8: But Pharaoh didn't really exist like it does now back then. 324 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 8: You know, it's a different time, and I would imagine 325 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 8: at some point, you know, it's going to be virtual reality, 326 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 8: you know, where these juries can put on a headset 327 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 8: and walk through the house at their leisure. 328 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 10: They can. But you know you had mentioned earlier about 329 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,959 Speaker 10: the acoustics might not be the same. However, people that 330 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 10: are impaneled on juries, they're not AI. I mean, they 331 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 10: are living, breathing human beings that know what it's like 332 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 10: to walk into a house in that sense that you 333 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 10: get that auditory sense of a footfall, you know, and 334 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 10: I know that part of the floor has been removed 335 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 10: and all this. But when you think about just the 336 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 10: timing element, if I were asked how long would it 337 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 10: take me to make it from the sliders to that 338 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 10: weird that if we just go on a limb here 339 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 10: and say, enter through the sliders, how long would it 340 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 10: take to make it from there to the interior staircase 341 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 10: and twist and turn and get up there. And also 342 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 10: in the darkness, I think about all these in the 343 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 10: relationship spatial relationships and all these sorts of things. And yeah, 344 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 10: I know Pharaoh is great and it's going to be fantastic. 345 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 10: I'm sure the presentation will blow everybody away if we're 346 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 10: permitted to see it, but there's still that one little 347 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 10: splinter in my brain feeling. 348 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 8: I often equate it to like I like to read books, 349 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 8: like the actual book. I don't want to read it 350 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 8: on a kindle. It's like I like to touch the paper, 351 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 8: like to turn the pace. 352 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: So it's maybe the. 353 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 8: Same kind of lake right right thing where you're there 354 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 8: in person and you can smell and use all all 355 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 8: your senses to get an idea of what happened, and 356 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 8: you're not going to be able to have that with 357 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 8: a three D scan. 358 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 4: The draw to the house after the murders is one 359 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 4: of the reasons it was demolished. People were coming from 360 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 4: far and wide to view the house, somewhat the horrible 361 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 4: intention of taking a souvenir from the scene. We felt 362 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 4: it was something important to try and understand, so we 363 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 4: reached out to psychiatrist doctor Gail Saltz, Clinical Associate Professor 364 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 4: of Psychiatry at New York Presbyterian Hospital and host of 365 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 4: the podcast how Can I Help. Doctor Salts have been 366 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 4: quoted in an article we found about our culture's obsession 367 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 4: with murder houses. Here's doctor Saltz with some information about 368 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 4: the phenomenon followed by Stephanie. 369 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: The house is sort of like the museum of it. 370 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 3: It's easier to imagine being part of it or in it, 371 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 3: thinking about it the horror of it, much like if 372 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 3: you said, here are the clothes of the people, or 373 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 3: here is the weapon that was used, and you can 374 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 3: physically look at it and hold it. And of course 375 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: homes represent all kinds of things. Homes represent the place 376 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 3: where these people lived and had lives, and most people's 377 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: homes means feeling safe and feeling a joy of you 378 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: know whatever. It might be their family, their friends, I 379 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 3: mean in this case right, their friends being in college, 380 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 3: feeling invincible at that age. And of course most people 381 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 3: are not thinking about you could be a victim in 382 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 3: your home. 383 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: It's like, how do we prevent these kinds of things 384 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: from happening, or how do we maintain our own sense 385 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: of safety when sometimes the perpetrator is so ordinary. 386 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 3: Many people have a desire to feel a little scared 387 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 3: in a safe way, and we are naturally curious. The 388 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 3: identification is partially with a victim of like, how horrible 389 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 3: the horror of that is? Right to feel like at 390 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 3: that last moment, you know somebody stabbing me with the 391 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 3: you know, like those kinds of thoughts and imagining what's 392 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 3: inside that guy's head that he would plot this and 393 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 3: plan this and want to do something terrible. 394 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: In this Idaho murder case, interestingly, the decision was made 395 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: right or wrong to demolish that house. Do you have 396 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: an opinion on that? 397 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 3: I mean, there are rules and regulations about what can 398 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 3: happen with evidence that it can't be brought into a courtroom, 399 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 3: and that seems like more of a legal question. 400 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 4: To get that legal opinion. I spoke with KIRKNRMI, legal 401 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 4: analyst and former defense attorney for Jody Aarius. Jody Aarrius 402 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 4: was on trial in twenty thirteen for murdering her ex 403 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 4: boyfriend Travis Alexander. The trial was televised worldwide and became 404 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 4: known as a circus in the press. 405 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 2: Here's Kirk, I can see no viable, tangible reason for 406 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 2: that home to be destroyed before the trial is complete. 407 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 2: The jury may have questions. Part of the evidence against 408 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 2: mister Kolberger is this eyewitness testimony of seeing someone with 409 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 2: bushy eyebrows. There's been talk of hearing footsteps from upper levels, 410 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 2: things of that nature, and those could be issues and 411 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: questions that the jury has in their mind. How could 412 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: someone see these eyebrows under these circumstances? Could they really 413 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 2: hear this? All these different things? And there could be 414 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: dozens more that I have not thought of. And here 415 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: you have this piece of evidence and it is destroyed 416 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: for no logical reason. Let's say something came up with 417 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: defense case and the defense said, hey, we need to 418 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 2: look at this, and that becomes a sixth Amendment issue. 419 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 2: Is mister Colberger getting a fair trial based on these circumstances? 420 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: And that could result in a death verdict getting overturned. 421 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: But right now, until the case is over, it seems 422 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: nonsensical to say the least to destroy the building. 423 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 11: Well that's a concrete answer, but it seems like the 424 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 11: people who might have most wanted it taken down might 425 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 11: then impact the victims negatively if, for example, a sentence 426 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 11: is overturned because of it. 427 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 2: Yes, we don't know what could pop up, what could 428 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: be of evidentiary value down the line when things are challenged, 429 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: when things are questioned, So yeah, to me, it just 430 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: makes no sense at least as it relates to the 431 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: case in. 432 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 10: General, and could only serve to harm the gates. 433 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 4: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 434 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 4: a moment. Stephanie and Joseph Scott Morgan discuss how items 435 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 4: from the now demolished house might be used during the trial. 436 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 10: One other thing that's very compelling about this case is 437 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 10: that they hauled off the mattresses in the back of 438 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 10: a pickup truck. They can still bring these items into court, 439 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 10: and that has occurred. They can actually have been in 440 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 10: courts where they set beds up before. Here's the real 441 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 10: rub with that. If you're talking about dynamic blood stain, 442 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 10: you can say, here's the mattress that we recovered, here's 443 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 10: the bed frame that we recovered. We see this deposition 444 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 10: of blood on the surface of the mattress. Maybe they 445 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 10: hold up a bloody sheet. If that happens, you're going 446 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 10: to hear the defense scream from the rooftops over this, 447 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 10: because they're going to say it's prejudicial. The prosecution is 448 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 10: going to have to justify their rationale for bringing each 449 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 10: one of these items in there, and the defense, I guess, 450 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 10: could see it as prejudicial, but they could also argue 451 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 10: the idea that now that they are absent, that that's 452 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 10: something that they cannot go back and collect. It's really 453 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 10: important that we remember. I think that they were so eager, 454 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 10: they being the investigative authorities, to get this place cleaned out, 455 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 10: that they had called a cleaning crew to come and 456 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 10: clean up the structure before. Right, it almost happened simultaneously 457 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 10: with the arrest of Coberg in Pennsylvania. 458 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 4: Joseph is referring to when Brian Colberger's defense attorney, An Taylor, 459 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 4: filed a court motion to stop the cleanup operation to 460 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 4: preserve the scene of the crime. This motion was filed 461 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 4: on December thirtieth, twenty twenty two, just hours after Colberger's arrest. 462 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 10: If I remember correctly, it was his counsel, it said, whoa, 463 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 10: throw the brakes on. We're gonna we need to get 464 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 10: a team out there to take a look. And I'll 465 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 10: never forget seeing that image of the plastic that had 466 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 10: been taped up over the door so that they could 467 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 10: go in and move out and all this stuff. And 468 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 10: then there was a controversy of taking out quote unquote 469 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 10: personal items. And you know, once you've kind of breached, 470 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 10: you know that threshold so quickly in this environment, there's 471 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 10: not a damn bit of sentimental material that is out 472 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 10: there that's worth compromising this because, yeah, I know that 473 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 10: it's ghastly, it's a horrible thing, but life is full 474 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 10: of all kinds of horrible things. This I think is 475 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 10: potentially a diminishment of the memory of these kids that 476 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 10: were killed there. But now it's too late. At this point, 477 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 10: you can't go back and unring the belt. 478 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 4: Stephanie continues her conversation with psychiatrist doctor Gail Saltz on 479 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 4: how a jury might be impact by the homes demolition. 480 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 4: Here's doctor Saltz. 481 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: Is there an immediacy for a jury going to a house? 482 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 3: Psychologically speaking? I would say yes, that it's going to 483 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 3: stir their thoughts in a more emotionally galvanizing way, and 484 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 3: that that will draw them in. But it doesn't tell 485 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 3: you whether it will draw them in and make them 486 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: say guilty or innocent. And now where I think it 487 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 3: could affect them is if they are convinced that this 488 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 3: person is the perpetrator and they are brought into a 489 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 3: circumstance that makes them feel more emotionally distraught. I think 490 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 3: that could affect a sentencing, a sentencing like death no death. 491 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 3: And this is why prosecutors bring in photos and movies 492 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 3: and voice recordings, because you know, they are trying to 493 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 3: not only deliver content, but they are trying to deliver 494 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 3: more immediacy, deliver more empathy to a jury, and have 495 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 3: them feel more intensely and stronger about what's happening. I 496 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 3: think being in a house certainly could add to that. 497 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 3: It's not the only thing that could add to that. 498 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 3: I think there was a point made that the house 499 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 3: didn't look at all inside anymore the way that it looked, 500 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 3: and so that could have the opposite effect. Right, They 501 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 3: could go in expecting to see something that looks like 502 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 3: college students are living there and see none of that, 503 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 3: see a sterile space, and that could have the effect 504 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 3: of making them feel like what was so bad? You know, 505 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 3: what was so terrible. So it's hard to predict whether 506 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 3: that would be helpful or harmful. 507 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought of it that way. True, The disassociation 508 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: from what is now a different space is a really 509 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: good point. 510 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 3: What I would say is virtual is always one step 511 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 3: from moved from being in person, you know. I think 512 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 3: courts have discovered that putting things in a video format 513 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 3: absolutely makes an impact. Is it eked out by the 514 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 3: idea that you're coming out of the courtroom and into 515 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 3: this space. I know that you're standing on the spot 516 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 3: where this thing happened. I think that has a more 517 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 3: emotional impact. Is it necessary if you have the video? 518 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,479 Speaker 3: Might the video of what the inside looked like at 519 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 3: the time that it actually looked that way, which was 520 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 3: at the time of the crime, have more impact than 521 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 3: the physical plant that doesn't look anymore like it did 522 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 3: at the time of the crime. It might. 523 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 4: Next time on the Idaho Masacer an exclusive interview with Cassie, 524 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 4: a former student of accused murderer Brian Koeberger's. She is 525 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 4: speaking out for the first time. 526 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: What was the class about? We covered literally how to 527 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: get away with murder? Did he have any friends and 528 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: not that I saw, but kept to himself anytime I 529 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: saw him on campus or in class or office hours. 530 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: So this man potentially murdered four people and then he 531 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: went back to class. Yes. 532 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 4: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 533 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 4: us on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker 534 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 4: is produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. 535 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 4: Editing and sound design by Jeff Toois, music by Jared Aston. 536 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 4: The Idaho Masker is a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio. 537 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 4: For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 538 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.