WEBVTT - Encore: Having Hard Conversations: How to Avoid Being Avoidant 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.720 Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.040 Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.280 Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.200 And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:21.440 And this is Dear Therapists. 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.680 Each week we invite you into a session so you 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.080 can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:30.120 other people come to understand themselves better and make changes 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:30.840 in their lives. 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.159 So sit back and welcome to today's session. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.680 This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:39.480 find out how our advice worked out. 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:44.080 A year later, there were two big aha moments that 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.440 I had after we spoke. One of them was that 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:49.960 if I'm not able to communicate on what I need, 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.519 then he's never going to be able to understand. The 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.200 other is that I realized I need to be able 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.960 to communicate what I want, and in order for me 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.880 to be able to communicate that, I need to figure 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:02.200 it out first. 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.440 A quick note, deo therapist is for informational purposes only, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.800 does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:12.919 a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.920 seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:18.640 other qualified health provider with any questions you may have 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.679 regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.280 you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.160 or in full, and we may edit it for length 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:29.679 and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:34.560 been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey, Laurie, 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.360 Hi guy, I'm excited about this week's episode. We're checking 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.880 in with four of our guests from season one, Savannah, 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.920 Ryan and Beth, Danika and Aby. I'm really curious to 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.000 hear how our sessions have impacted them since we last chatted. 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:50.919 Yahmi too. And what was interesting about those five people 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.680 was that all of them had trouble communicating with someone 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.640 about an important issue in their relationships, whether it was 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:58.720 with a spouse or a sibling or a boyfriend. 0:01:59.000 --> 0:01:59.160 Right. 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.919 They were avoid having hard conversations, and that's something so 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:03.800 many people do. 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.240 Yeah, and if any of our listeners have been avoiding 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:10.280 having a hard but necessary conversation, especially one that involves 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.720 setting some boundaries, this episode is for you. 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:17.560 The first person we're going to hear from today is Savannah. 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.160 Savannah and her husband are a young couple, but they're 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.760 dealing with a really difficult issue. Her husband has sickle 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.760 cell anemia, which is a chronic condition that can interfere 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.200 with daily life and sometimes cause tremendous pain. 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.040 And Savannah was trying to figure out how to be 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.080 there for him as his partner, but also how to 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.840 be there for herself because she was really struggling. But 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.720 she was trying to protect him by avoiding having important 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.800 discussions about what was actually going on between them, and 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.000 that was having an impact on their marriage. So let's 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.800 get a reminder of last season's session. 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:55.239 There was this one supplement that his doctor recommended that's 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.840 supposed to help, but he hasn't been taking it in 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.080 the quantity that he's supposed. 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:01.280 To be, and so it wasn't really helping. 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.280 Do you know why he wasn't taking it? I don't, 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:06.920 So what happens when you ask him? 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.640 He kind of brushes it off and just says that 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.360 he will or he forgets or something. 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.280 And then I try and remind him any things. 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:17.320 I'm putting too much emphasis onto this supplement and it's 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:17.760 supposed to. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.160 Have some benefits for sickle cell patients. 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:22.799 You know what I'm hearing is that when you say 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:25.040 he brushes it off, I think you both brush it off, 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.679 because what happens is you're talking about take the supplement, 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:31.359 don't take the supplement as. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.920 Opposed to what's going on emotionally for both of you. 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:37.520 And this is in part why you wrote to us 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.760 being able to talk to him more about Look, this 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.960 is really hot for me and I need us to talk. 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:45.520 What's your fear. 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.120 I'm definitely scared that our marriage could fall apart. 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.680 Wow, that took me right back to the session. So 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:57.520 let's hear how things are going for her now. 0:03:58.560 --> 0:03:59.320 Hy learning guy. 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.560 One of the biggest changes that's happened is not my 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.960 husband and I moved back to the East Coast, which 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.920 is where we're originally from. We are now much closer 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.080 to both of our family as all of our friends, 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.800 and we just have this huge support network that's been 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:19.560 really beneficial for both of us over the past few months, 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.599 and so we're really really excited to be back and 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.000 be closer to the people who are most important to us. 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.039 Well, it's great to hear that they move closer to 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.760 family and friends, because when someone has a chronic illness, 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:37.719 getting social support and having people to go to for help, 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.680 and I mean help both practically and emotionally, both for 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.640 the person who has the chronic illness and also for 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.680 their partner is so important. So having that network must 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.520 be making everything a bit easier for both of them. 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.640 That's exactly why we suggested this support group for Savannah, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.120 because her family and friends were so far away, so 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.520 this is such a smart move on their part. I'm 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.400 delighted to hear they did that. Let's hear some more 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:06.040 from Savannah. 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.479 After we spoke, we made those lists about things we 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:13.240 wanted to talk to and went through and picked the 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:15.799 other person's items and had. 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.839 Those conversations and it was really helpful. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.560 And one of the things that came out of that 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.279 is just me being more comfortable opening up and talking 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.880 about the things that are important. 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:28.560 And so since then. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:33.640 We've had more open conversations, regardless of how hard they are, 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:40.000 and we no longer need to follow the lists. It's 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.279 a lot more natural now, so that has been really 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:44.279 amazing to see. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:47.360 One of the things that we asked her to do 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.159 was to create a menu to make it kind of 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.280 fun with her husband, where they would write down the 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.840 things that they wanted to talk about with each other, 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.320 and then the other person gets to pick from that 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.680 menu what they are going to discuss in that conversation. 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.840 And so it kind of lightened things up a little 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.400 bit because these were very heavy topics that they were discussing, 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.279 and it also gave the other person some control over 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:16.520 what they would talk about. And it sounds like it 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:18.560 really opened up a space for them to continue to 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.920 have these kinds of conversations and really get the communication 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:23.240 going between the two of them. 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.600 It really opened up a logjam because when there are 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:30.880 such important things that aren't being discussed, it's not just 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.520 that they're not being discussed, but then each person has 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.320 their own feeling and story about why it's not being 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.960 discussed and why they aren't, why the other person isn't, 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:43.080 and so having those discussions just freeze up communication in 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:44.280 all kinds of ways. 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.520 And I think it's a sign that the homework assignment 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.840 was effective when they're still doing some form of that 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.920 a year later. And there's more to Savannah's updates, So 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:52.760 let's take a listen. 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.719 There were two big moments that I had after we spoke. 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.479 One of them was that if I'm not able to 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.919 communicate on what I need, then he's never going to 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.360 be able to understand and get on the same page. 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.960 And while it's difficult, it is necessary. And if I 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.320 continue to shy away and not speak to it, even 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.760 if I'm doing it for what I think is a 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.480 good reason, We're never going to be able to move forward. 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.160 And so that has been one of the things that's 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:27.000 changed quite dramatically. The other big moment is that in 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.200 order for me to be able to communicate that I 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.960 need to figure it out. And so I am now 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.640 constantly working on figuring out what it is that I 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.960 want from life, for myself and for our relationship. And 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.520 it has been a really fun process, kind of scary, 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:51.840 but also necessary. And going through that process and bringing 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:56.160 him into that has been truly helpful. It's brought us closer, 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.880 and you know, I think he appreciates me doing something 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.080 for myself that is going to benefit. 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:04.360 The both of us. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.680 Thank you again, and I'm really excited to see what 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:09.360 the future has in store for us. 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.760 This is something our listeners might be able to see 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.200 in their own lives. Here's how this happens. When you 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.320 feel unable to communicate your feelings and needs to someone 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.200 for whatever reason, you can lose touch with what those 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.520 feelings and needs are because what's the point in trying 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:25.600 to figure them out if you're not going to communicate them, 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.200 And that can become such a vicious cycle. 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.079 Well, sometimes when we feel shut down in a relationship, 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.840 we realize that we're the ones shutting ourselves down. You 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.760 see how he was very receptive and welcomed, and it 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.640 was almost a relief to him to be able to 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:43.520 open up these lines of communication, and I think for 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.080 both of them. So sometimes we don't realize it, but 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.480 we're the ones who are shutting ourselves down because we're 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.800 afraid of what might happen if we voice what we're 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.400 really thinking or feeling. So I think this is a 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.840 great lesson for people that first get in touch with 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.760 what you're thinking and feeling and then make sure that 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:03.079 you communicate it. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.440 And this is a dynamic that we see often in 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:07.720 couples in which one of them has a chronic illness 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.599 or they're going through an extended crisis, that their communication 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:15.400 starts to become transactional. They talk about all the stuff 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.760 that needs to get done, and they stop going deeper. 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.320 One person feels hesitant to bring up their feelings because 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.640 they don't want to overburden the person who's suffering. Meanwhile, 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.640 the person who's suffering is feeling guilty about putting out 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.440 their partner, and so they sit on their feelings and 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.079 it can really create this dynamic in which they basically 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:36.880 stop talking about meaningful things. 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.480 And it sounds like Savannah and her husband have started 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.560 to find those things again. What are the other parts 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.280 of their lives that they had been neglecting. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.439 You're listening to deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back 0:09:52.480 --> 0:10:02.120 after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.000 Wench and this is THEO therapist. 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.079 So really, with Savannah, it ended up being a session 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.640 about communication, and communication between couples comes up so much, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.360 but usually we just hear from one person in the couple. 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.200 And in this next follow up, we have Ryan and 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.080 Beth from season one who came on the show together 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.640 to help resolve a disagreement that they've had for the 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.720 entire length of their marriage. They haven't been able to 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.320 agree on where they should live, and they both had 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:35.600 very compelling reasons to want to be in their respective cities, 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.360 and they've been in an impasse for a very long time. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:41.160 Let's get a reminder. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:47.200 The level of importance that she and I would say 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.760 each of us put on being near family. After the 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:57.280 first eight years of our relationship, we had no family around, 0:10:58.120 --> 0:10:59.599 and the fact that all of a sudden that was 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:05.760 like a number one primary desire was a little bit surprising. 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:07.560 I guess, so that would probably be my take. 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:12.520 I think I learned how much you really didn't want 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:13.280 to live in New York. 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.719 I think I thought you were trying, that you. 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:19.520 Were really just over it and wanted to get out 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:24.719 of there. I don't know if that's true. 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.120 So often when we see couples in therapy, people assume 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.760 that they're coming to us because they are arguing all 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.040 the time. There's a lot of acrimony between them, and 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.920 that's often not the case. In Ryan and best case, 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.160 they had this decision to make about where to live 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.520 and for their entire marriage. Even though they loved each 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.319 other very much and were able to communicate about other 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.960 things pretty well, they weren't able to resolve this issue 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.920 of do we live where Ryan's parents live, or do 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.160 we live where Best's mom lives? And it was a 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.520 very big issue that was causing a lot of resentment 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.960 for both of them. So let's hear what happened since 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:07.520 the session. 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.160 This is Beth and this is Ryan. 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:13.800 Good news is we are communicating better. 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:19.880 Yeah, and from just a point of view for twenty 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.200 twenty one versus where we were in twenty twenty, we 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.920 went through an entire first floor innovation on our house 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.720 and one of our mantras was we will not divorce 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:35.520 over this, and we didn't, so that's good success. We 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.520 successfully also visited with family, which was really important and 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:45.400 helpful for all of those relationships. And it sounds a 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.720 little silly when you're a grown up, but we've made 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:54.280 some friends and that feels like really important outlets for 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:59.559 both of us. We made friends through different exercise programs 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:04.240 and a lot of our friends overlap and it's been 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:05.040 huge for us. 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.080 Yeah, And just tonight I went over and helped the 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.360 neighbor move a bed and it felt very neighborly in 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.480 settled and it was nice. 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.079 So it sounds like they're settling into where they have been, 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.960 which is where Ryan's family is and I think the 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.760 important piece here is that they're learning to communicate with 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.439 each other differently. And once they have started to communicate 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.640 differently with each other, you can see how that opens 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:33.400 up the possibilities. 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.440 Part of what was happening with them because of this 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.600 disagreement about geography was they weren't really making a home 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:43.840 anywhere anywhere, And so at least now they're starting to 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.760 actually make a home, put down roots, make friends, do 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.360 the things you need to do to feel like you 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:52.320 belong somewhere. 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.720 And I think that's important because as an adult, it's 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.600 much harder to make friends, especially in a new place, 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.080 because I think that for most of us as adults, 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.240 we either have made friends when we were younger that 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.720 come with us in some way, or were already ensconced 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.559 in a community and we've established roots there and they 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.200 hadn't done that yet, or we make them through our kids. 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.160 And here she was really making an effort to kind 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.160 of feel settled and make this place her home. 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.240 So let's hear some more from Ryan and Beth. 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:27.240 I think it helped us. I recognize that we did 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.560 have one upsmanship, and so we came to realize that 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.840 we needed to back off of that and focus on 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:38.119 the tender core and getting past those hard outer feelings. 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.680 So that I think helped us a lot as we 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.640 talked through our communication challenges. 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.600 Yeah, and that this doesn't have to be brin smanship. 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.000 It doesn't have to be you know, well, my pain 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.760 is worse than your pain and we can hold both 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.400 at the same time, and that's life. And I think 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.720 it helped us both really understand that about it each other. 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.760 I think we've also let ourselves feel settled. I think 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.320 that was one of the things that Laurie pointed out, 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:10.360 that if we're always feeling a little like we're nomads, 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:12.680 then will we ever feel settled? And will we ever 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:13.360 feel good. 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:14.400 About where we are? 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.400 And we have met some great people and our kids 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.600 are settled, I would say, in good community and family 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:21.680 nearby and all of that. 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.280 So I think things are going better. I think we're 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:25.160 communicating better. 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.640 I think that realization about the tender core underneath the 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:32.120 herd outer shell to sound cliched was kind of a 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.120 game changer, just thinking through, yeah. 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:37.280 How you can. 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:40.640 Want to hide true emotions. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:45.120 And then I'll say it has helped me have more 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.360 direct and open conversations with many of my male friends, 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.800 which is not something that we generally do. So it's 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.800 been positive to help me work through that tough, manly 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.840 outer shell that many of us carry and talk more 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:01.840 openly with men. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.240 What I think is really hopeful here is that no 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.160 matter what they end up deciding, and I don't think 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.600 that they're quite there yet. I think that Beth is 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.720 kind of trying this on right now, and it might 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.240 not be where they ultimately end up, but I think 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.200 what's important here is that they've learned what was tripping 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.080 them up in the kind of communication they had around this, 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.080 which can also translate to the other kinds of conversations 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.880 that they will inevitably have to have in the course 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:29.880 of a marriage. And one of the things that they 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.400 were doing was they had this, whose pain is greater 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.000 if I go to your city, will my pain be greater? 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.640 So therefore we should go to my city, And it 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.040 was sort of this one upsmanship, you know, the pain 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.840 Olympics that they were going through, and I think that 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.480 they're starting to realize, wait a minute, there also are 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:50.000 reasons that each of us wants to be in these 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.480 respective cities. And when they could see the very tender 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.960 parts of each other and the very vulnerable parts of 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:58.800 each other. It gave them so much more compassion for 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.160 the other person and for the other person's reasons for 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.679 wanting to be somewhere else, and also the sacrifices that 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.000 they would be making if they ended up in a 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.399 city that was not their first choice. 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.760 And I think Ryan is being very supportive, which is great, 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.800 but really my head soft to Beth. I think she 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.439 went from being in such a rigid place of that 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.720 brinksmanship of the pan Olympics to known I could never 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.919 ever ever be happy there, and one of the exercises 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.640 we actually gave her was to imagine being happy there. 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:33.639 But I think she did such a great job of 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.840 opening up and really giving it a chance and being 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.600 very authentic about it. And my hands off to her. 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.480 That was a big, big shift that she did. 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.040 And I would also say hats off to Ryan because 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.600 he really was able, for maybe the very first time 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.159 in his life to go to that more vulnerable place 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:58.000 that he tends to avoid. And he was talking about 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.320 how he normally doesn't go there, and I think that 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.440 that happens more often with men than with women, and 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.040 I don't want to make a sweeping statement about gender. 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.399 But I see that in our culture we tend to 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.040 give a message to men that being vulnerable is weak. 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.160 And what Ryan did was not only was he able 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.800 to be vulnerable with Beth, but then he started to 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.479 be more open and vulnerable with his male friends. And 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:27.480 I think that that really speaks to the shift that 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.480 he made from this conversation. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.720 And Ryan and Beth had one last thing to share 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:33.320 with us. 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.600 One of the things I realized was we were also 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.760 escalating with our kids. Oh yeah, and so it's helped 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:45.119 us be better parents of don't escalate and just be 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.600 open and love them and hug them if need be, 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.720 but don't escalate. Thought that was wonderful guidance for parenting. 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:58.240 Yeah, with marriage, our older son is an escalator. 0:18:58.280 --> 0:18:59.560 I don't know where he gets from. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.520 So it's helpful to kind of remember that when he's 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:07.800 escalating too, there's probably something to work through underneath that. 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.040 So thank you Thinks. 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:13.200 For lessons and insights. 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.000 Couples tend to escalate a lot, especially when they're dealing 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:21.920 with conflictual issues like Beth and Ryan were, but they 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.600 also learn how to manage their feelings and to de 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:31.000 escalate and to prevent that, and their healthy communication has improved. 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:33.760 And so for couples, when they do that kind of 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.680 work with their emotional regulation and their healthy communication is improving. 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.240 It's really beneficial for the kids. The kids get to 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.320 see good modeling. They learn that you can be upset, 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.800 but you can also manage those feelings and cope with 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.200 all the frustrations that you might have when you love someone. 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.679 So I think they're doing a great job of not 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.320 just managing their own relationship, but really modeling a new 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:56.960 and improved one for their kids. 0:19:57.640 --> 0:19:57.800 Right. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:59.800 One of their concerns about where they were going to 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.680 live was how that was going to affect the lives 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.720 of their kids. They wanted to pick a place that 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:06.960 not only each of them wanted to be in, but 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.719 where would their kids have the best upbringing. One of 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.080 the best gifts that you can give your kids is 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.160 modeling emotional regulation. Modeling what do you do with your 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:21.399 feelings and when you have parents who can communicate well 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:25.240 and effectively and in a healthy way and be vulnerable too. 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.520 So emotional regulation is not about don't have feelings, It's 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.000 about being able to have your feelings and then to 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.760 manage them in a productive way in the family, and 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:40.000 no matter where they decide to live, the gift that 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.080 has come out of this is that their kids are 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.440 going to get that good modeling from their parents. 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.440 So communication problems don't just happen between couples. They happen 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:57.840 among siblings as well. And when we met Danica, she 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:03.560 was really struggling with her younger brother, Blake, who felt 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:07.920 very much left out of the family. She and her 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.360 brother John were older than Blake and his kids. They 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.320 were quite cruel to him and he has never gotten 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.360 over it and he feels very much apart from them, 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.240