Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1: This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out.
Speaker 3: A year later, there were two big aha moments that
Speaker 3: I had after we spoke. One of them was that
Speaker 3: if I'm not able to communicate on what I need,
Speaker 3: then he's never going to be able to understand. The
Speaker 3: other is that I realized I need to be able
Speaker 3: to communicate what I want, and in order for me
Speaker 3: to be able to communicate that, I need to figure
Speaker 3: it out first.
Speaker 2: A quick note, deo therapist is for informational purposes only,
Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length
Speaker 2: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey, Laurie,
Speaker 2: Hi guy, I'm excited about this week's episode. We're checking
Speaker 2: in with four of our guests from season one, Savannah,
Speaker 2: Ryan and Beth, Danika and Aby. I'm really curious to
Speaker 2: hear how our sessions have impacted them since we last chatted.
Speaker 1: Yahmi too. And what was interesting about those five people
Speaker 1: was that all of them had trouble communicating with someone
Speaker 1: about an important issue in their relationships, whether it was
Speaker 1: with a spouse or a sibling or a boyfriend.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: They were avoid having hard conversations, and that's something so
Speaker 2: many people do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if any of our listeners have been avoiding
Speaker 1: having a hard but necessary conversation, especially one that involves
Speaker 1: setting some boundaries, this episode is for you.
Speaker 2: The first person we're going to hear from today is Savannah.
Speaker 2: Savannah and her husband are a young couple, but they're
Speaker 2: dealing with a really difficult issue. Her husband has sickle
Speaker 2: cell anemia, which is a chronic condition that can interfere
Speaker 2: with daily life and sometimes cause tremendous pain.
Speaker 1: And Savannah was trying to figure out how to be
Speaker 1: there for him as his partner, but also how to
Speaker 1: be there for herself because she was really struggling. But
Speaker 1: she was trying to protect him by avoiding having important
Speaker 1: discussions about what was actually going on between them, and
Speaker 1: that was having an impact on their marriage. So let's
Speaker 1: get a reminder of last season's session.
Speaker 3: There was this one supplement that his doctor recommended that's
Speaker 3: supposed to help, but he hasn't been taking it in
Speaker 3: the quantity that he's supposed.
Speaker 5: To be, and so it wasn't really helping.
Speaker 6: Do you know why he wasn't taking it? I don't,
Speaker 6: So what happens when you ask him?
Speaker 3: He kind of brushes it off and just says that
Speaker 3: he will or he forgets or something.
Speaker 5: And then I try and remind him any things.
Speaker 3: I'm putting too much emphasis onto this supplement and it's
Speaker 3: supposed to.
Speaker 5: Have some benefits for sickle cell patients.
Speaker 6: You know what I'm hearing is that when you say
Speaker 6: he brushes it off, I think you both brush it off,
Speaker 6: because what happens is you're talking about take the supplement,
Speaker 6: don't take the supplement as.
Speaker 1: Opposed to what's going on emotionally for both of you.
Speaker 2: And this is in part why you wrote to us
Speaker 2: being able to talk to him more about Look, this
Speaker 2: is really hot for me and I need us to talk.
Speaker 2: What's your fear.
Speaker 3: I'm definitely scared that our marriage could fall apart.
Speaker 2: Wow, that took me right back to the session. So
Speaker 2: let's hear how things are going for her now.
Speaker 5: Hy learning guy.
Speaker 3: One of the biggest changes that's happened is not my
Speaker 3: husband and I moved back to the East Coast, which
Speaker 3: is where we're originally from. We are now much closer
Speaker 3: to both of our family as all of our friends,
Speaker 3: and we just have this huge support network that's been
Speaker 3: really beneficial for both of us over the past few months,
Speaker 3: and so we're really really excited to be back and
Speaker 3: be closer to the people who are most important to us.
Speaker 1: Well, it's great to hear that they move closer to
Speaker 1: family and friends, because when someone has a chronic illness,
Speaker 1: getting social support and having people to go to for help,
Speaker 1: and I mean help both practically and emotionally, both for
Speaker 1: the person who has the chronic illness and also for
Speaker 1: their partner is so important. So having that network must
Speaker 1: be making everything a bit easier for both of them.
Speaker 2: That's exactly why we suggested this support group for Savannah,
Speaker 2: because her family and friends were so far away, so
Speaker 2: this is such a smart move on their part. I'm
Speaker 2: delighted to hear they did that. Let's hear some more
Speaker 2: from Savannah.
Speaker 3: After we spoke, we made those lists about things we
Speaker 3: wanted to talk to and went through and picked the
Speaker 3: other person's items and had.
Speaker 5: Those conversations and it was really helpful.
Speaker 3: And one of the things that came out of that
Speaker 3: is just me being more comfortable opening up and talking
Speaker 3: about the things that are important.
Speaker 5: And so since then.
Speaker 3: We've had more open conversations, regardless of how hard they are,
Speaker 3: and we no longer need to follow the lists. It's
Speaker 3: a lot more natural now, so that has been really
Speaker 3: amazing to see.
Speaker 1: One of the things that we asked her to do
Speaker 1: was to create a menu to make it kind of
Speaker 1: fun with her husband, where they would write down the
Speaker 1: things that they wanted to talk about with each other,
Speaker 1: and then the other person gets to pick from that
Speaker 1: menu what they are going to discuss in that conversation.
Speaker 1: And so it kind of lightened things up a little
Speaker 1: bit because these were very heavy topics that they were discussing,
Speaker 1: and it also gave the other person some control over
Speaker 1: what they would talk about. And it sounds like it
Speaker 1: really opened up a space for them to continue to
Speaker 1: have these kinds of conversations and really get the communication
Speaker 1: going between the two of them.
Speaker 2: It really opened up a logjam because when there are
Speaker 2: such important things that aren't being discussed, it's not just
Speaker 2: that they're not being discussed, but then each person has
Speaker 2: their own feeling and story about why it's not being
Speaker 2: discussed and why they aren't, why the other person isn't,
Speaker 2: and so having those discussions just freeze up communication in
Speaker 2: all kinds of ways.
Speaker 1: And I think it's a sign that the homework assignment
Speaker 1: was effective when they're still doing some form of that
Speaker 1: a year later. And there's more to Savannah's updates, So
Speaker 1: let's take a listen.
Speaker 3: There were two big moments that I had after we spoke.
Speaker 3: One of them was that if I'm not able to
Speaker 3: communicate on what I need, then he's never going to
Speaker 3: be able to understand and get on the same page.
Speaker 3: And while it's difficult, it is necessary. And if I
Speaker 3: continue to shy away and not speak to it, even
Speaker 3: if I'm doing it for what I think is a
Speaker 3: good reason, We're never going to be able to move forward.
Speaker 3: And so that has been one of the things that's
Speaker 3: changed quite dramatically. The other big moment is that in
Speaker 3: order for me to be able to communicate that I
Speaker 3: need to figure it out. And so I am now
Speaker 3: constantly working on figuring out what it is that I
Speaker 3: want from life, for myself and for our relationship. And
Speaker 3: it has been a really fun process, kind of scary,
Speaker 3: but also necessary. And going through that process and bringing
Speaker 3: him into that has been truly helpful. It's brought us closer,
Speaker 3: and you know, I think he appreciates me doing something
Speaker 3: for myself that is going to benefit.
Speaker 5: The both of us.
Speaker 3: Thank you again, and I'm really excited to see what
Speaker 3: the future has in store for us.
Speaker 2: This is something our listeners might be able to see
Speaker 2: in their own lives. Here's how this happens. When you
Speaker 2: feel unable to communicate your feelings and needs to someone
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, you can lose touch with what those
Speaker 2: feelings and needs are because what's the point in trying
Speaker 2: to figure them out if you're not going to communicate them,
Speaker 2: And that can become such a vicious cycle.
Speaker 1: Well, sometimes when we feel shut down in a relationship,
Speaker 1: we realize that we're the ones shutting ourselves down. You
Speaker 1: see how he was very receptive and welcomed, and it
Speaker 1: was almost a relief to him to be able to
Speaker 1: open up these lines of communication, and I think for
Speaker 1: both of them. So sometimes we don't realize it, but
Speaker 1: we're the ones who are shutting ourselves down because we're
Speaker 1: afraid of what might happen if we voice what we're
Speaker 1: really thinking or feeling. So I think this is a
Speaker 1: great lesson for people that first get in touch with
Speaker 1: what you're thinking and feeling and then make sure that
Speaker 1: you communicate it.
Speaker 2: And this is a dynamic that we see often in
Speaker 2: couples in which one of them has a chronic illness
Speaker 2: or they're going through an extended crisis, that their communication
Speaker 2: starts to become transactional. They talk about all the stuff
Speaker 2: that needs to get done, and they stop going deeper.
Speaker 2: One person feels hesitant to bring up their feelings because
Speaker 2: they don't want to overburden the person who's suffering. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: the person who's suffering is feeling guilty about putting out
Speaker 2: their partner, and so they sit on their feelings and
Speaker 2: it can really create this dynamic in which they basically
Speaker 2: stop talking about meaningful things.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like Savannah and her husband have started
Speaker 1: to find those things again. What are the other parts
Speaker 1: of their lives that they had been neglecting.
Speaker 2: You're listening to deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
Speaker 2: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy
Speaker 2: Wench and this is THEO therapist.
Speaker 1: So really, with Savannah, it ended up being a session
Speaker 1: about communication, and communication between couples comes up so much,
Speaker 1: but usually we just hear from one person in the couple.
Speaker 1: And in this next follow up, we have Ryan and
Speaker 1: Beth from season one who came on the show together
Speaker 1: to help resolve a disagreement that they've had for the
Speaker 1: entire length of their marriage. They haven't been able to
Speaker 1: agree on where they should live, and they both had
Speaker 1: very compelling reasons to want to be in their respective cities,
Speaker 1: and they've been in an impasse for a very long time.
Speaker 1: Let's get a reminder.
Speaker 7: The level of importance that she and I would say
Speaker 7: each of us put on being near family. After the
Speaker 7: first eight years of our relationship, we had no family around,
Speaker 7: and the fact that all of a sudden that was
Speaker 7: like a number one primary desire was a little bit surprising.
Speaker 7: I guess, so that would probably be my take.
Speaker 8: I think I learned how much you really didn't want
Speaker 8: to live in New York.
Speaker 5: I think I thought you were trying, that you.
Speaker 7: Were really just over it and wanted to get out
Speaker 7: of there. I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1: So often when we see couples in therapy, people assume
Speaker 1: that they're coming to us because they are arguing all
Speaker 1: the time. There's a lot of acrimony between them, and
Speaker 1: that's often not the case. In Ryan and best case,
Speaker 1: they had this decision to make about where to live
Speaker 1: and for their entire marriage. Even though they loved each
Speaker 1: other very much and were able to communicate about other
Speaker 1: things pretty well, they weren't able to resolve this issue
Speaker 1: of do we live where Ryan's parents live, or do
Speaker 1: we live where Best's mom lives? And it was a
Speaker 1: very big issue that was causing a lot of resentment
Speaker 1: for both of them. So let's hear what happened since
Speaker 1: the session.
Speaker 5: This is Beth and this is Ryan.
Speaker 7: Good news is we are communicating better.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and from just a point of view for twenty
Speaker 8: twenty one versus where we were in twenty twenty, we
Speaker 8: went through an entire first floor innovation on our house
Speaker 8: and one of our mantras was we will not divorce
Speaker 8: over this, and we didn't, so that's good success. We
Speaker 8: successfully also visited with family, which was really important and
Speaker 8: helpful for all of those relationships. And it sounds a
Speaker 8: little silly when you're a grown up, but we've made
Speaker 8: some friends and that feels like really important outlets for
Speaker 8: both of us. We made friends through different exercise programs
Speaker 8: and a lot of our friends overlap and it's been
Speaker 8: huge for us.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And just tonight I went over and helped the
Speaker 7: neighbor move a bed and it felt very neighborly in
Speaker 7: settled and it was nice.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like they're settling into where they have been,
Speaker 1: which is where Ryan's family is and I think the
Speaker 1: important piece here is that they're learning to communicate with
Speaker 1: each other differently. And once they have started to communicate
Speaker 1: differently with each other, you can see how that opens
Speaker 1: up the possibilities.
Speaker 2: Part of what was happening with them because of this
Speaker 2: disagreement about geography was they weren't really making a home
Speaker 2: anywhere anywhere, And so at least now they're starting to
Speaker 2: actually make a home, put down roots, make friends, do
Speaker 2: the things you need to do to feel like you
Speaker 2: belong somewhere.
Speaker 1: And I think that's important because as an adult, it's
Speaker 1: much harder to make friends, especially in a new place,
Speaker 1: because I think that for most of us as adults,
Speaker 1: we either have made friends when we were younger that
Speaker 1: come with us in some way, or were already ensconced
Speaker 1: in a community and we've established roots there and they
Speaker 1: hadn't done that yet, or we make them through our kids.
Speaker 1: And here she was really making an effort to kind
Speaker 1: of feel settled and make this place her home.
Speaker 2: So let's hear some more from Ryan and Beth.
Speaker 7: I think it helped us. I recognize that we did
Speaker 7: have one upsmanship, and so we came to realize that
Speaker 7: we needed to back off of that and focus on
Speaker 7: the tender core and getting past those hard outer feelings.
Speaker 7: So that I think helped us a lot as we
Speaker 7: talked through our communication challenges.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and that this doesn't have to be brin smanship.
Speaker 8: It doesn't have to be you know, well, my pain
Speaker 8: is worse than your pain and we can hold both
Speaker 8: at the same time, and that's life. And I think
Speaker 8: it helped us both really understand that about it each other.
Speaker 8: I think we've also let ourselves feel settled. I think
Speaker 8: that was one of the things that Laurie pointed out,
Speaker 8: that if we're always feeling a little like we're nomads,
Speaker 8: then will we ever feel settled? And will we ever
Speaker 8: feel good.
Speaker 5: About where we are?
Speaker 8: And we have met some great people and our kids
Speaker 8: are settled, I would say, in good community and family
Speaker 8: nearby and all of that.
Speaker 5: So I think things are going better. I think we're
Speaker 5: communicating better.
Speaker 8: I think that realization about the tender core underneath the
Speaker 8: herd outer shell to sound cliched was kind of a
Speaker 8: game changer, just thinking through, yeah.
Speaker 5: How you can.
Speaker 8: Want to hide true emotions.
Speaker 7: And then I'll say it has helped me have more
Speaker 7: direct and open conversations with many of my male friends,
Speaker 7: which is not something that we generally do. So it's
Speaker 7: been positive to help me work through that tough, manly
Speaker 7: outer shell that many of us carry and talk more
Speaker 7: openly with men.
Speaker 1: What I think is really hopeful here is that no
Speaker 1: matter what they end up deciding, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that they're quite there yet. I think that Beth is
Speaker 1: kind of trying this on right now, and it might
Speaker 1: not be where they ultimately end up, but I think
Speaker 1: what's important here is that they've learned what was tripping
Speaker 1: them up in the kind of communication they had around this,
Speaker 1: which can also translate to the other kinds of conversations
Speaker 1: that they will inevitably have to have in the course
Speaker 1: of a marriage. And one of the things that they
Speaker 1: were doing was they had this, whose pain is greater
Speaker 1: if I go to your city, will my pain be greater?
Speaker 1: So therefore we should go to my city, And it
Speaker 1: was sort of this one upsmanship, you know, the pain
Speaker 1: Olympics that they were going through, and I think that
Speaker 1: they're starting to realize, wait a minute, there also are
Speaker 1: reasons that each of us wants to be in these
Speaker 1: respective cities. And when they could see the very tender
Speaker 1: parts of each other and the very vulnerable parts of
Speaker 1: each other. It gave them so much more compassion for
Speaker 1: the other person and for the other person's reasons for
Speaker 1: wanting to be somewhere else, and also the sacrifices that
Speaker 1: they would be making if they ended up in a
Speaker 1: city that was not their first choice.
Speaker 2: And I think Ryan is being very supportive, which is great,
Speaker 2: but really my head soft to Beth. I think she
Speaker 2: went from being in such a rigid place of that
Speaker 2: brinksmanship of the pan Olympics to known I could never
Speaker 2: ever ever be happy there, and one of the exercises
Speaker 2: we actually gave her was to imagine being happy there.
Speaker 2: But I think she did such a great job of
Speaker 2: opening up and really giving it a chance and being
Speaker 2: very authentic about it. And my hands off to her.
Speaker 2: That was a big, big shift that she did.
Speaker 1: And I would also say hats off to Ryan because
Speaker 1: he really was able, for maybe the very first time
Speaker 1: in his life to go to that more vulnerable place
Speaker 1: that he tends to avoid. And he was talking about
Speaker 1: how he normally doesn't go there, and I think that
Speaker 1: that happens more often with men than with women, and
Speaker 1: I don't want to make a sweeping statement about gender.
Speaker 1: But I see that in our culture we tend to
Speaker 1: give a message to men that being vulnerable is weak.
Speaker 1: And what Ryan did was not only was he able
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable with Beth, but then he started to
Speaker 1: be more open and vulnerable with his male friends. And
Speaker 1: I think that that really speaks to the shift that
Speaker 1: he made from this conversation.
Speaker 2: And Ryan and Beth had one last thing to share
Speaker 2: with us.
Speaker 7: One of the things I realized was we were also
Speaker 7: escalating with our kids. Oh yeah, and so it's helped
Speaker 7: us be better parents of don't escalate and just be
Speaker 7: open and love them and hug them if need be,
Speaker 7: but don't escalate. Thought that was wonderful guidance for parenting.
Speaker 8: Yeah, with marriage, our older son is an escalator.
Speaker 5: I don't know where he gets from.
Speaker 8: So it's helpful to kind of remember that when he's
Speaker 8: escalating too, there's probably something to work through underneath that.
Speaker 4: So thank you Thinks.
Speaker 7: For lessons and insights.
Speaker 2: Couples tend to escalate a lot, especially when they're dealing
Speaker 2: with conflictual issues like Beth and Ryan were, but they
Speaker 2: also learn how to manage their feelings and to de
Speaker 2: escalate and to prevent that, and their healthy communication has improved.
Speaker 2: And so for couples, when they do that kind of
Speaker 2: work with their emotional regulation and their healthy communication is improving.
Speaker 2: It's really beneficial for the kids. The kids get to
Speaker 2: see good modeling. They learn that you can be upset,
Speaker 2: but you can also manage those feelings and cope with
Speaker 2: all the frustrations that you might have when you love someone.
Speaker 2: So I think they're doing a great job of not
Speaker 2: just managing their own relationship, but really modeling a new
Speaker 2: and improved one for their kids.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 1: One of their concerns about where they were going to
Speaker 1: live was how that was going to affect the lives
Speaker 1: of their kids. They wanted to pick a place that
Speaker 1: not only each of them wanted to be in, but
Speaker 1: where would their kids have the best upbringing. One of
Speaker 1: the best gifts that you can give your kids is
Speaker 1: modeling emotional regulation. Modeling what do you do with your
Speaker 1: feelings and when you have parents who can communicate well
Speaker 1: and effectively and in a healthy way and be vulnerable too.
Speaker 1: So emotional regulation is not about don't have feelings, It's
Speaker 1: about being able to have your feelings and then to
Speaker 1: manage them in a productive way in the family, and
Speaker 1: no matter where they decide to live, the gift that
Speaker 1: has come out of this is that their kids are
Speaker 1: going to get that good modeling from their parents.
Speaker 2: So communication problems don't just happen between couples. They happen
Speaker 2: among siblings as well. And when we met Danica, she
Speaker 2: was really struggling with her younger brother, Blake, who felt
Speaker 2: very much left out of the family. She and her
Speaker 2: brother John were older than Blake and his kids. They
Speaker 2: were quite cruel to him and he has never gotten
Speaker 2: over it and he feels very much apart from them,
Speaker 2: and she wants to rectify the situation, but she doesn't
Speaker 2: know how and anything she's tried hasn't worked. Let's get
Speaker 2: a reminder of our session with Danica.
Speaker 4: Blake asked us repeatedly, what does it mean to you
Speaker 4: to be a sibling?
Speaker 7: To me? Like, what.
Speaker 4: Can he really count on from us? We would say, well,
Speaker 4: what does family look like for you? And it would
Speaker 4: be I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think because what he's trying to convey to you
Speaker 2: is a feeling, and the feeling that he has is
Speaker 2: that I'm not part of this group.
Speaker 6: Still, what have those conversations been like where you go
Speaker 6: back and take full responsibility for the extent of the
Speaker 6: pain that you caused him.
Speaker 4: It's very emotional, you know, to say that, yes, I
Speaker 4: was awful, you were very much on your own as
Speaker 4: like a five or a six year old. Yes, I
Speaker 4: did ignore you, didn't play with you. To have said
Speaker 4: that I wish you weren't born, you know, to a
Speaker 4: little kid like that, and I have said that I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: So let's hear how things are going between them now, Hi.
Speaker 4: Laurie, Hi guy. Unfortunately, I can't say that there has
Speaker 4: been dramatic changes. So what has changed is I try
Speaker 4: to reach out to Blake more regularly. He actually doesn't
Speaker 4: seem all that receptive towards phone calls. He's pretty sensitive
Speaker 4: about feeling like I'm making a forced effort to contact him.
Speaker 4: I don't think he likes feeling like I'm contacting him
Speaker 4: out of obligation or as like a chore, and so
Speaker 4: he doesn't like having scheduled calls. So I've been texting
Speaker 4: him more and catching up that way.
Speaker 2: You know, Laurie, there might not be dramatic changes in
Speaker 2: how Blake feels, but there are meaningful changes in Danaka's
Speaker 2: understanding of the dynamics between them in how they communicate. Blake,
Speaker 2: for example, convoys that he needs her efforts to feel authentic,
Speaker 2: and when she hears that, she goes okay. So maybe
Speaker 2: scheduled calls doesn't do that. Let's pivot to texts because
Speaker 2: those tend to be most spontaneous and casual, and maybe
Speaker 2: that will feel better to him. So she's willing to
Speaker 2: change what she's doing and try and find ways to
Speaker 2: connect with him, and so far it doesn't sound like
Speaker 2: it's gone amazingly will but the fact that those efforts
Speaker 2: are going forth, that he's able to voice his concerns,
Speaker 2: that she's able to hear them, that's an improvement.
Speaker 1: And building trust takes a lot of time, and I
Speaker 1: think there were two things that were really important for
Speaker 1: Danica to keep in mind when it came to Blake.
Speaker 1: The first was that he did want to have the
Speaker 1: sense of being part of the family, feeling like he
Speaker 1: was one of the siblings, and that there wasn't this
Speaker 1: kind of feeling of being an outsider. But I think
Speaker 1: the other part that was extremely important was for Danica
Speaker 1: to acknowledge and very directly that she did not treat
Speaker 1: him well as a child, and I think he really
Speaker 1: needs to hear that and to hear it from an
Speaker 1: authentic place where she really gets it. And I think
Speaker 1: in our session it did take a little bit of
Speaker 1: work for her to really get to a place where
Speaker 1: she could do that without the butts or the reasons why.
Speaker 1: And the more that that happens, the more trust will
Speaker 1: develop between the two of them.
Speaker 2: The other thing in the session was that she kept
Speaker 2: tethering herself to John, to the other brother and at
Speaker 2: least it sounds like the communication now is just between
Speaker 2: Danica and Blake in that way, so it's not we
Speaker 2: me and John and then Blake is over there. It's
Speaker 2: Danika trying to fold some kind of connection that's just
Speaker 2: her and Blake. Let's hear some more from Danica.
Speaker 4: I do feel more at peace with how things are.
Speaker 4: It was helpful talking with you and for me either.
Speaker 4: The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with
Speaker 4: Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship
Speaker 4: because of our circumstances in childhood and how that's still
Speaker 4: carrying over into adulthood, and that kind of framing really
Speaker 4: helped me feel less confused about what it was that
Speaker 4: Blake was looking towards me for and to some extent,
Speaker 4: what it is that he's looking for me now. I
Speaker 4: think for us it's going to be a matter of
Speaker 4: incremental improvements as I show consistency in reaching out to
Speaker 4: him and taking an interest in his life, hopefully will
Speaker 4: cease positive change over time. Thank you again for all
Speaker 4: of your help and time and insights.
Speaker 1: One of the things that happens when you have parents
Speaker 1: who maybe aren't really as present as you would like
Speaker 1: them to be, and you're the younger sibling and then
Speaker 1: you have two older siblings who are very close with
Speaker 1: each other, is that those two older siblings become the
Speaker 1: surrogate parents. And Blake was really left alone so much
Speaker 1: of the time on his own with nobody there, and
Speaker 1: Danica talked about how neglectful she and John and her
Speaker 1: brother were toward Blake, And so I think that there's
Speaker 1: some of that repair work to do around that piece
Speaker 1: in terms of not only what happened, but who are
Speaker 1: they to each other now as adults where there isn't
Speaker 1: that parental relationship, but they really are adult siblings. And
Speaker 1: I think Danica still has this story in her head
Speaker 1: that somehow she has so much more in common with
Speaker 1: John and she can't possibly find overlap with these interests
Speaker 1: with Blake, even though they did when they were in
Speaker 1: their early twenties have some of that relationship where they
Speaker 1: found some overlap. And I think she has more work
Speaker 1: to do to understand why she's so blocked there, because
Speaker 1: I think that when she gets unblocked there, she will
Speaker 1: naturally become more authentic in the way she relates to Blake,
Speaker 1: and Blake will feel her presence in a way that
Speaker 1: he never did as that abandoned little child growing up.
Speaker 2: I agree, And I think the part of the hurdle
Speaker 2: Danka faces is that she is very sensitized to how
Speaker 2: hurt Blake is and how rejected he still feels so
Speaker 2: many years later. And I think that that makes it
Speaker 2: very difficult for her because we're saying to her, yeah,
Speaker 2: be authentic with him, but it's so hard to be
Speaker 2: authentic when she's worried about hurting his feelings, when she's
Speaker 2: worried about saying the wrong things. And so I think
Speaker 2: it's really a delicate, difficult path that she has to
Speaker 2: find there, And I think the best way for her
Speaker 2: to find it is really just to get interested in
Speaker 2: who this person is now as an adult, get to
Speaker 2: know him in a way that you haven't before you're
Speaker 2: both older. You get to know him, ask him questions.
Speaker 2: Almost start from scratch, and I hope she can get
Speaker 2: over the hesitation she has because of wanting to not
Speaker 2: hurt him in any way, shape or form again, so
Speaker 2: that she can be more authentic with him and he
Speaker 2: would feel that and probably respond quite well to me.
Speaker 1: I like what you said about starting from scratch, because
Speaker 1: I think these roles that we have as children become
Speaker 1: so ingrained that it's very hard to pivot from them,
Speaker 1: and so I think that we do have to do
Speaker 1: this with our siblings as adults, no matter what the
Speaker 1: issue is, is to really start from scratch and not
Speaker 1: be like, well, you were always the smart one, or
Speaker 1: you were always the favored one, or you were always
Speaker 1: the beautiful one, or you know, whatever it might be,
Speaker 1: and to really say who are we now that we
Speaker 1: are adults and we are not children living in that
Speaker 1: house anymore.
Speaker 2: And I think any siblings who have not had a
Speaker 2: close relationship as adults can do that. Get to know
Speaker 2: one another as if you were strangers. And you'll be
Speaker 2: really surprised to learn who that sibling is now and
Speaker 2: for them to get to know who you are now.
Speaker 2: And it's a great way to think about how to
Speaker 2: connect with siblings or any family members with whom you
Speaker 2: haven't been closed and adulted.
Speaker 1: And I think that starts with curiosity, being really curious
Speaker 1: about the other person, and not just in the sibling situation,
Speaker 1: but I think in any situation where we're talking about
Speaker 1: improving communication, it has to start with curiosity. You're listening
Speaker 1: to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back
Speaker 1: after a short break, so I'm thinking about the last
Speaker 1: person we're going to catch up with today, and that
Speaker 1: is Amy. And Amy came to us because she was
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with the fact that her boyfriend that she was
Speaker 1: very serious with was still taking care of his ex
Speaker 1: girlfriend's dog and I think the dog was actually living
Speaker 1: with him at times, and the boundaries just seemed very
Speaker 1: blurred to her and she did not know how to
Speaker 1: communicate effectively with him around this. So let's get a
Speaker 1: reminder of what was going on.
Speaker 9: I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
Speaker 9: met this person, but I hate her already.
Speaker 5: Because she is.
Speaker 1: In the middle of our relationship.
Speaker 2: You are very clear with him that the dog bothers you,
Speaker 2: but you also say that you don't want to tell
Speaker 2: him what to do about the friendship quote unquote correct
Speaker 2: with this X if you feel comfortable saying to him,
Speaker 2: this dog shouldn't be here, why don't you feel comfortable
Speaker 2: saying and your friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing
Speaker 2: and sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in
Speaker 2: the picture either.
Speaker 1: I guess you doubt yourself. I think, Okay, does this.
Speaker 9: Dog represent the woman? Is this dog a connection? Or
Speaker 9: am I just totally over analyzing a situation. Can he
Speaker 9: have a friendship with this person? I mean, he has
Speaker 9: mentioned that he's known for twenty something years, But I said,
Speaker 9: this is not a friend. I said, I don't have
Speaker 9: sex with my friends.
Speaker 2: You know, Laurie, Amy had reason to be concerned about
Speaker 2: his ex because she had a history of sabotaging his relationships,
Speaker 2: including his marriage, So there was all kinds of reasons
Speaker 2: for concern. There here where Amy is today and the
Speaker 2: dog and the boyfriend.
Speaker 9: Hi, Laurien guy, this is Amy. I am happy to
Speaker 9: report that my boyfriend and I are still together and
Speaker 9: the dog has not reappeared, and neither has the ex girlfriend.
Speaker 9: Something that I have learned and reflected on a lot, though,
Speaker 9: is I don't know that the dog incident was isolated.
Speaker 9: And what I mean by that is, I think it's
Speaker 9: tied to bigger issues. I know we spoke about boundaries,
Speaker 9: so it's tied to bigger issues of boundaries and also guilt.
Speaker 9: I know he suffers from just an incredible amount of
Speaker 9: guilt from his divorce and not being able to spend
Speaker 9: time with his kids. So I think the dog not
Speaker 9: only for him did it mean a failed relationship guilt again,
Speaker 9: but giving it back was also for him. He felt
Speaker 9: guilty because he wasn't sure it was going to be
Speaker 9: well taken care of well.
Speaker 1: I think Amy's right that it's never just about the dog,
Speaker 1: and member that her boyfriend had so much guilt that
Speaker 1: he was holding about having disappointed his wife and leaving
Speaker 1: the marriage, and then the question of what was going
Speaker 1: to happen to his kids and how were they going
Speaker 1: to be affected by the divorce, and then how was
Speaker 1: his ex girlfriend going to feel. They also had an
Speaker 1: on again, off again relationship that kept reappearing, but they
Speaker 1: were also friends for a very long time, and he
Speaker 1: was going to disappoint her. So I think there were
Speaker 1: so many things going on for him in addition to
Speaker 1: the bigger issue of really cutting ties with that part
Speaker 1: of his life and being able to move on to
Speaker 1: a healthy relationship with Amy.
Speaker 2: And I think what we usually see in our office
Speaker 2: is that when somebody has murky boundaries in one area,
Speaker 2: for example, who's taking care of the dog, we will
Speaker 2: find those milky boundaries in another area. People tend to
Speaker 2: either like clarity or avoid creating it. And if he's
Speaker 2: the kind of person that really finds it hard to
Speaker 2: set clear boundaries and expectations in his own head, let
Speaker 2: alone for others, that's probably something that goes on in
Speaker 2: all kinds of different areas of his life.
Speaker 1: And I think it's very hopeful that when they had
Speaker 1: a direct conversation about this, that he really stepped up
Speaker 1: and set those boundaries that he was saying to her,
Speaker 1: you were important to me, I value you, and I
Speaker 1: know that I need to do this for our relationship
Speaker 1: to succeed. And I think that sent her a very
Speaker 1: strong message of support. So let's hear what else happened.
Speaker 9: I think the biggest hurdle we have is when they
Speaker 9: got divorced while it was amicable, because he felt so guilty,
Speaker 9: he assumed ninety nine point nine percent of all the
Speaker 9: financial responsibilities. His ex wife doesn't work. She still has
Speaker 9: a credit card with him, which is supposed to be
Speaker 9: exclusively for growth trees things for the kids, but it's
Speaker 9: just really murky. I mean, they are legally divorced, but
Speaker 9: he still pays for everything. So that's a really big
Speaker 9: challenge for us right now because we're communicating very openly
Speaker 9: about it. How if it's not fixed, we can't move forward.
Speaker 9: He's slow to act, and I know why. I know
Speaker 9: he doesn't. He doesn't like conflict, so he feels like
Speaker 9: by engaging in this negotiation, the ex wife might prevent
Speaker 9: him from seeing his kids as often as he liked
Speaker 9: because they co parent, and might even request SPO custody.
Speaker 9: So that's the big hurdle that we're facing now. And
Speaker 9: I reflect a lot on what you said, Laurie during
Speaker 9: our last call, which was make sure you don't wait
Speaker 9: too long. So thank you again for listening.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's great that she got the message
Speaker 1: that she shouldn't wait too long to have these conversations,
Speaker 1: because she talked about how he avoids conflict, and I
Speaker 1: think that when you're in a relationship with someone who
Speaker 1: avoids conflict, it's really important that you don't become complicit
Speaker 1: in that that you then don't say, well, I'm just
Speaker 1: not going to bring it up because I know that
Speaker 1: it makes the other person uncomfortable for me to bring
Speaker 1: it up. And I think that that worked very well
Speaker 1: with setting some clear boundaries around the other woman with
Speaker 1: the dog, who he had trouble not having sex with
Speaker 1: whenever she would come around. And while there were times
Speaker 1: where he could hold that boundary, there were times when
Speaker 1: he couldn't. So that was a very clear cut situation
Speaker 1: where she knew what she needed, he knew if he
Speaker 1: wanted to have this relationship with Amy, and that seemed
Speaker 1: to work out well so far. I think here it's
Speaker 1: a little more complicated because not only is he conflict avoidant,
Speaker 1: but there's a real consequence to bringing this up with
Speaker 1: his ex wife, which is that it might affect how
Speaker 1: she handles the custody situation around the kids, And so
Speaker 1: I think that it's important for them to really talk
Speaker 1: about money in their relationship and how money is going
Speaker 1: to be handled between them and also with his kids
Speaker 1: and his ex wife. But I think she also has
Speaker 1: to understand that there's a consequence out there for him
Speaker 1: that he kind of has to dance around a little
Speaker 1: bit differently. So it doesn't mean don't set the boundary.
Speaker 1: It means they're really going to have to work together
Speaker 1: to come up with something that works for both of
Speaker 1: them in this relationship.
Speaker 2: And here again, as we've seen in the other updates,
Speaker 2: communication is absolutely key because Amy has a need to
Speaker 2: have clarity about what are the parameters of our relationship
Speaker 2: hers and her boyfriends, and that is related to the
Speaker 2: parameters of his relationship with his ex wife, his parenting,
Speaker 2: all those things. And I'm really glad to hear that
Speaker 2: Amy is still as she was when we spoke to her,
Speaker 2: really clear about being able to voice what her needs
Speaker 2: and feelings are and getting her boyfriend, who is much
Speaker 2: less prone to clarity, to become more and more clear
Speaker 2: about his needs and feelings and what she can expect.
Speaker 1: And I think that when two people start communicating, it's
Speaker 1: beneficial to both people. So it's not like they started
Speaker 1: communicating and Amy got things in the relationship that benefit her,
Speaker 1: but it also benefits him to be in a healthier
Speaker 1: relationship with Amy, and in this case, to really examine
Speaker 1: his guilt and his avoidance and his blurry boundaries that
Speaker 1: maybe have tripped him up in relationships before, so that
Speaker 1: he can have a healthier path moving forward. So he's
Speaker 1: got to really differentiate here, what are some boundaries I
Speaker 1: can set around money with my ex, and what are
Speaker 1: some things where it's really the guilt talking and not
Speaker 1: about some negative consequence that might happen. And I think
Speaker 1: that what we've seen with all of the updates that
Speaker 1: we've gotten this week is that communication might not solve
Speaker 1: the problem immediately, but it gets people on a path
Speaker 1: so that they can start to get to a place
Speaker 1: where they will be able to move forward and negotiate
Speaker 1: their relationships in a much smoother way.
Speaker 2: And I think the other thing that we've seen is
Speaker 2: that when one person in a family, or in a couple,
Speaker 2: or in any kind of relationship starts to communicate more
Speaker 2: clearly and more openly, it forces in a way, the
Speaker 2: other person to match that or to come toward it,
Speaker 2: and so that can really have a ripple effect. I'm
Speaker 2: sure Amy's X is learning a lot about communication from
Speaker 2: being with Amy, and I'm sure that the family members
Speaker 2: and partners of all our guests that we covered this
Speaker 2: week have learned from them as well. And so I
Speaker 2: just want to urge our listeners. If you are in
Speaker 2: a situation that you feel is murky, clarify what your
Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings are and then speak up and communicate
Speaker 2: openly with the other person.
Speaker 1: Because it always feels like a relief. So next week
Speaker 1: we'll be back with our regular sessions, and we'll be
Speaker 1: talking with a woman who has a history of addictions
Speaker 1: that she is now in recovery for, but she has
Speaker 1: recently developed a new addiction, and that is to shopping.
Speaker 7: I didn't realize that that's what was happening until I
Speaker 7: was six thousand dollars in debt.
Speaker 5: I think that's what makes me feel vulnerable. Is to
Speaker 5: say this a loud.
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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
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Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
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Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
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