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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to

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Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out.

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Speaker 3: A year later, there were two big aha moments that

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Speaker 3: I had after we spoke. One of them was that

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Speaker 3: if I'm not able to communicate on what I need,

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Speaker 3: then he's never going to be able to understand. The

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Speaker 3: other is that I realized I need to be able

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Speaker 3: to communicate what I want, and in order for me

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Speaker 3: to be able to communicate that, I need to figure

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Speaker 3: it out first.

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Speaker 2: A quick note, deo therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

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Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or

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Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

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Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 2: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey, Laurie,

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Speaker 2: Hi guy, I'm excited about this week's episode. We're checking

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Speaker 2: in with four of our guests from season one, Savannah,

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Speaker 2: Ryan and Beth, Danika and Aby. I'm really curious to

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Speaker 2: hear how our sessions have impacted them since we last chatted.

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Speaker 1: Yahmi too. And what was interesting about those five people

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Speaker 1: was that all of them had trouble communicating with someone

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Speaker 1: about an important issue in their relationships, whether it was

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Speaker 1: with a spouse or a sibling or a boyfriend.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: They were avoid having hard conversations, and that's something so

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Speaker 2: many people do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if any of our listeners have been avoiding

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Speaker 1: having a hard but necessary conversation, especially one that involves

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Speaker 1: setting some boundaries, this episode is for you.

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Speaker 2: The first person we're going to hear from today is Savannah.

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Speaker 2: Savannah and her husband are a young couple, but they're

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Speaker 2: dealing with a really difficult issue. Her husband has sickle

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Speaker 2: cell anemia, which is a chronic condition that can interfere

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Speaker 2: with daily life and sometimes cause tremendous pain.

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Speaker 1: And Savannah was trying to figure out how to be

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Speaker 1: there for him as his partner, but also how to

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Speaker 1: be there for herself because she was really struggling. But

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Speaker 1: she was trying to protect him by avoiding having important

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Speaker 1: discussions about what was actually going on between them, and

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Speaker 1: that was having an impact on their marriage. So let's

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Speaker 1: get a reminder of last season's session.

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Speaker 3: There was this one supplement that his doctor recommended that's

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Speaker 3: supposed to help, but he hasn't been taking it in

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Speaker 3: the quantity that he's supposed.

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Speaker 5: To be, and so it wasn't really helping.

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Speaker 6: Do you know why he wasn't taking it? I don't,

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Speaker 6: So what happens when you ask him?

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Speaker 3: He kind of brushes it off and just says that

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Speaker 3: he will or he forgets or something.

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Speaker 5: And then I try and remind him any things.

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Speaker 3: I'm putting too much emphasis onto this supplement and it's

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Speaker 3: supposed to.

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Speaker 5: Have some benefits for sickle cell patients.

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Speaker 6: You know what I'm hearing is that when you say

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Speaker 6: he brushes it off, I think you both brush it off,

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Speaker 6: because what happens is you're talking about take the supplement,

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Speaker 6: don't take the supplement as.

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Speaker 1: Opposed to what's going on emotionally for both of you.

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Speaker 2: And this is in part why you wrote to us

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Speaker 2: being able to talk to him more about Look, this

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Speaker 2: is really hot for me and I need us to talk.

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Speaker 2: What's your fear.

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Speaker 3: I'm definitely scared that our marriage could fall apart.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that took me right back to the session. So

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Speaker 2: let's hear how things are going for her now.

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Speaker 5: Hy learning guy.

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Speaker 3: One of the biggest changes that's happened is not my

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Speaker 3: husband and I moved back to the East Coast, which

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Speaker 3: is where we're originally from. We are now much closer

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Speaker 3: to both of our family as all of our friends,

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Speaker 3: and we just have this huge support network that's been

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Speaker 3: really beneficial for both of us over the past few months,

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Speaker 3: and so we're really really excited to be back and

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Speaker 3: be closer to the people who are most important to us.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's great to hear that they move closer to

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Speaker 1: family and friends, because when someone has a chronic illness,

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Speaker 1: getting social support and having people to go to for help,

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Speaker 1: and I mean help both practically and emotionally, both for

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Speaker 1: the person who has the chronic illness and also for

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Speaker 1: their partner is so important. So having that network must

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Speaker 1: be making everything a bit easier for both of them.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly why we suggested this support group for Savannah,

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Speaker 2: because her family and friends were so far away, so

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Speaker 2: this is such a smart move on their part. I'm

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Speaker 2: delighted to hear they did that. Let's hear some more

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Speaker 2: from Savannah.

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Speaker 3: After we spoke, we made those lists about things we

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Speaker 3: wanted to talk to and went through and picked the

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Speaker 3: other person's items and had.

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Speaker 5: Those conversations and it was really helpful.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things that came out of that

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Speaker 3: is just me being more comfortable opening up and talking

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Speaker 3: about the things that are important.

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Speaker 5: And so since then.

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Speaker 3: We've had more open conversations, regardless of how hard they are,

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Speaker 3: and we no longer need to follow the lists. It's

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Speaker 3: a lot more natural now, so that has been really

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Speaker 3: amazing to see.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that we asked her to do

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Speaker 1: was to create a menu to make it kind of

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Speaker 1: fun with her husband, where they would write down the

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Speaker 1: things that they wanted to talk about with each other,

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Speaker 1: and then the other person gets to pick from that

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Speaker 1: menu what they are going to discuss in that conversation.

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Speaker 1: And so it kind of lightened things up a little

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Speaker 1: bit because these were very heavy topics that they were discussing,

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Speaker 1: and it also gave the other person some control over

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Speaker 1: what they would talk about. And it sounds like it

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Speaker 1: really opened up a space for them to continue to

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Speaker 1: have these kinds of conversations and really get the communication

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Speaker 1: going between the two of them.

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Speaker 2: It really opened up a logjam because when there are

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Speaker 2: such important things that aren't being discussed, it's not just

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Speaker 2: that they're not being discussed, but then each person has

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Speaker 2: their own feeling and story about why it's not being

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Speaker 2: discussed and why they aren't, why the other person isn't,

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Speaker 2: and so having those discussions just freeze up communication in

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Speaker 2: all kinds of ways.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's a sign that the homework assignment

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Speaker 1: was effective when they're still doing some form of that

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Speaker 1: a year later. And there's more to Savannah's updates, So

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Speaker 1: let's take a listen.

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Speaker 3: There were two big moments that I had after we spoke.

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Speaker 3: One of them was that if I'm not able to

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Speaker 3: communicate on what I need, then he's never going to

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Speaker 3: be able to understand and get on the same page.

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Speaker 3: And while it's difficult, it is necessary. And if I

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Speaker 3: continue to shy away and not speak to it, even

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Speaker 3: if I'm doing it for what I think is a

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Speaker 3: good reason, We're never going to be able to move forward.

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Speaker 3: And so that has been one of the things that's

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Speaker 3: changed quite dramatically. The other big moment is that in

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Speaker 3: order for me to be able to communicate that I

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Speaker 3: need to figure it out. And so I am now

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Speaker 3: constantly working on figuring out what it is that I

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Speaker 3: want from life, for myself and for our relationship. And

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Speaker 3: it has been a really fun process, kind of scary,

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Speaker 3: but also necessary. And going through that process and bringing

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Speaker 3: him into that has been truly helpful. It's brought us closer,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I think he appreciates me doing something

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Speaker 3: for myself that is going to benefit.

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Speaker 5: The both of us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you again, and I'm really excited to see what

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Speaker 3: the future has in store for us.

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Speaker 2: This is something our listeners might be able to see

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Speaker 2: in their own lives. Here's how this happens. When you

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Speaker 2: feel unable to communicate your feelings and needs to someone

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, you can lose touch with what those

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Speaker 2: feelings and needs are because what's the point in trying

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Speaker 2: to figure them out if you're not going to communicate them,

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Speaker 2: And that can become such a vicious cycle.

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Speaker 1: Well, sometimes when we feel shut down in a relationship,

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Speaker 1: we realize that we're the ones shutting ourselves down. You

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Speaker 1: see how he was very receptive and welcomed, and it

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Speaker 1: was almost a relief to him to be able to

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Speaker 1: open up these lines of communication, and I think for

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Speaker 1: both of them. So sometimes we don't realize it, but

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Speaker 1: we're the ones who are shutting ourselves down because we're

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Speaker 1: afraid of what might happen if we voice what we're

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Speaker 1: really thinking or feeling. So I think this is a

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Speaker 1: great lesson for people that first get in touch with

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Speaker 1: what you're thinking and feeling and then make sure that

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Speaker 1: you communicate it.

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Speaker 2: And this is a dynamic that we see often in

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Speaker 2: couples in which one of them has a chronic illness

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Speaker 2: or they're going through an extended crisis, that their communication

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Speaker 2: starts to become transactional. They talk about all the stuff

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Speaker 2: that needs to get done, and they stop going deeper.

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Speaker 2: One person feels hesitant to bring up their feelings because

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Speaker 2: they don't want to overburden the person who's suffering. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: the person who's suffering is feeling guilty about putting out

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Speaker 2: their partner, and so they sit on their feelings and

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Speaker 2: it can really create this dynamic in which they basically

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Speaker 2: stop talking about meaningful things.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like Savannah and her husband have started

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Speaker 1: to find those things again. What are the other parts

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Speaker 1: of their lives that they had been neglecting.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 2: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy

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Speaker 2: Wench and this is THEO therapist.

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Speaker 1: So really, with Savannah, it ended up being a session

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Speaker 1: about communication, and communication between couples comes up so much,

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Speaker 1: but usually we just hear from one person in the couple.

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Speaker 1: And in this next follow up, we have Ryan and

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Speaker 1: Beth from season one who came on the show together

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Speaker 1: to help resolve a disagreement that they've had for the

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Speaker 1: entire length of their marriage. They haven't been able to

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Speaker 1: agree on where they should live, and they both had

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Speaker 1: very compelling reasons to want to be in their respective cities,

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Speaker 1: and they've been in an impasse for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: Let's get a reminder.

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Speaker 7: The level of importance that she and I would say

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Speaker 7: each of us put on being near family. After the

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Speaker 7: first eight years of our relationship, we had no family around,

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Speaker 7: and the fact that all of a sudden that was

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Speaker 7: like a number one primary desire was a little bit surprising.

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Speaker 7: I guess, so that would probably be my take.

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Speaker 8: I think I learned how much you really didn't want

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Speaker 8: to live in New York.

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Speaker 5: I think I thought you were trying, that you.

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Speaker 7: Were really just over it and wanted to get out

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Speaker 7: of there. I don't know if that's true.

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Speaker 1: So often when we see couples in therapy, people assume

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Speaker 1: that they're coming to us because they are arguing all

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Speaker 1: the time. There's a lot of acrimony between them, and

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Speaker 1: that's often not the case. In Ryan and best case,

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Speaker 1: they had this decision to make about where to live

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Speaker 1: and for their entire marriage. Even though they loved each

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Speaker 1: other very much and were able to communicate about other

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Speaker 1: things pretty well, they weren't able to resolve this issue

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Speaker 1: of do we live where Ryan's parents live, or do

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Speaker 1: we live where Best's mom lives? And it was a

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Speaker 1: very big issue that was causing a lot of resentment

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Speaker 1: for both of them. So let's hear what happened since

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Speaker 1: the session.

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Speaker 5: This is Beth and this is Ryan.

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Speaker 7: Good news is we are communicating better.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, and from just a point of view for twenty

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Speaker 8: twenty one versus where we were in twenty twenty, we

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Speaker 8: went through an entire first floor innovation on our house

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Speaker 8: and one of our mantras was we will not divorce

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Speaker 8: over this, and we didn't, so that's good success. We

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Speaker 8: successfully also visited with family, which was really important and

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Speaker 8: helpful for all of those relationships. And it sounds a

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Speaker 8: little silly when you're a grown up, but we've made

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Speaker 8: some friends and that feels like really important outlets for

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Speaker 8: both of us. We made friends through different exercise programs

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Speaker 8: and a lot of our friends overlap and it's been

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Speaker 8: huge for us.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, And just tonight I went over and helped the

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Speaker 7: neighbor move a bed and it felt very neighborly in

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Speaker 7: settled and it was nice.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like they're settling into where they have been,

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Speaker 1: which is where Ryan's family is and I think the

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Speaker 1: important piece here is that they're learning to communicate with

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Speaker 1: each other differently. And once they have started to communicate

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Speaker 1: differently with each other, you can see how that opens

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Speaker 1: up the possibilities.

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Speaker 2: Part of what was happening with them because of this

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Speaker 2: disagreement about geography was they weren't really making a home

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Speaker 2: anywhere anywhere, And so at least now they're starting to

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Speaker 2: actually make a home, put down roots, make friends, do

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Speaker 2: the things you need to do to feel like you

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Speaker 2: belong somewhere.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's important because as an adult, it's

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Speaker 1: much harder to make friends, especially in a new place,

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Speaker 1: because I think that for most of us as adults,

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Speaker 1: we either have made friends when we were younger that

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Speaker 1: come with us in some way, or were already ensconced

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Speaker 1: in a community and we've established roots there and they

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Speaker 1: hadn't done that yet, or we make them through our kids.

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Speaker 1: And here she was really making an effort to kind

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Speaker 1: of feel settled and make this place her home.

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Speaker 2: So let's hear some more from Ryan and Beth.

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Speaker 7: I think it helped us. I recognize that we did

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Speaker 7: have one upsmanship, and so we came to realize that

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Speaker 7: we needed to back off of that and focus on

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Speaker 7: the tender core and getting past those hard outer feelings.

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Speaker 7: So that I think helped us a lot as we

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Speaker 7: talked through our communication challenges.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, and that this doesn't have to be brin smanship.

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Speaker 8: It doesn't have to be you know, well, my pain

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Speaker 8: is worse than your pain and we can hold both

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Speaker 8: at the same time, and that's life. And I think

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Speaker 8: it helped us both really understand that about it each other.

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Speaker 8: I think we've also let ourselves feel settled. I think

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Speaker 8: that was one of the things that Laurie pointed out,

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Speaker 8: that if we're always feeling a little like we're nomads,

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Speaker 8: then will we ever feel settled? And will we ever

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Speaker 8: feel good.

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Speaker 5: About where we are?

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Speaker 8: And we have met some great people and our kids

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Speaker 8: are settled, I would say, in good community and family

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Speaker 8: nearby and all of that.

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Speaker 5: So I think things are going better. I think we're

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Speaker 5: communicating better.

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Speaker 8: I think that realization about the tender core underneath the

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Speaker 8: herd outer shell to sound cliched was kind of a

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Speaker 8: game changer, just thinking through, yeah.

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Speaker 5: How you can.

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Speaker 8: Want to hide true emotions.

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Speaker 7: And then I'll say it has helped me have more

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Speaker 7: direct and open conversations with many of my male friends,

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Speaker 7: which is not something that we generally do. So it's

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Speaker 7: been positive to help me work through that tough, manly

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Speaker 7: outer shell that many of us carry and talk more

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Speaker 7: openly with men.

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Speaker 1: What I think is really hopeful here is that no

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Speaker 1: matter what they end up deciding, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: that they're quite there yet. I think that Beth is

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Speaker 1: kind of trying this on right now, and it might

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Speaker 1: not be where they ultimately end up, but I think

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Speaker 1: what's important here is that they've learned what was tripping

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Speaker 1: them up in the kind of communication they had around this,

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Speaker 1: which can also translate to the other kinds of conversations

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Speaker 1: that they will inevitably have to have in the course

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Speaker 1: of a marriage. And one of the things that they

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Speaker 1: were doing was they had this, whose pain is greater

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Speaker 1: if I go to your city, will my pain be greater?

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Speaker 1: So therefore we should go to my city, And it

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Speaker 1: was sort of this one upsmanship, you know, the pain

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Speaker 1: Olympics that they were going through, and I think that

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Speaker 1: they're starting to realize, wait a minute, there also are

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Speaker 1: reasons that each of us wants to be in these

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Speaker 1: respective cities. And when they could see the very tender

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Speaker 1: parts of each other and the very vulnerable parts of

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Speaker 1: each other. It gave them so much more compassion for

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Speaker 1: the other person and for the other person's reasons for

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Speaker 1: wanting to be somewhere else, and also the sacrifices that

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Speaker 1: they would be making if they ended up in a

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Speaker 1: city that was not their first choice.

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Speaker 2: And I think Ryan is being very supportive, which is great,

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Speaker 2: but really my head soft to Beth. I think she

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Speaker 2: went from being in such a rigid place of that

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Speaker 2: brinksmanship of the pan Olympics to known I could never

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Speaker 2: ever ever be happy there, and one of the exercises

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Speaker 2: we actually gave her was to imagine being happy there.

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Speaker 2: But I think she did such a great job of

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Speaker 2: opening up and really giving it a chance and being

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Speaker 2: very authentic about it. And my hands off to her.

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Speaker 2: That was a big, big shift that she did.

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Speaker 1: And I would also say hats off to Ryan because

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Speaker 1: he really was able, for maybe the very first time

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Speaker 1: in his life to go to that more vulnerable place

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Speaker 1: that he tends to avoid. And he was talking about

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Speaker 1: how he normally doesn't go there, and I think that

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Speaker 1: that happens more often with men than with women, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to make a sweeping statement about gender.

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Speaker 1: But I see that in our culture we tend to

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Speaker 1: give a message to men that being vulnerable is weak.

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Speaker 1: And what Ryan did was not only was he able

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Speaker 1: to be vulnerable with Beth, but then he started to

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Speaker 1: be more open and vulnerable with his male friends. And

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Speaker 1: I think that that really speaks to the shift that

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Speaker 1: he made from this conversation.

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Speaker 2: And Ryan and Beth had one last thing to share

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Speaker 2: with us.

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Speaker 7: One of the things I realized was we were also

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Speaker 7: escalating with our kids. Oh yeah, and so it's helped

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Speaker 7: us be better parents of don't escalate and just be

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Speaker 7: open and love them and hug them if need be,

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Speaker 7: but don't escalate. Thought that was wonderful guidance for parenting.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, with marriage, our older son is an escalator.

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Speaker 5: I don't know where he gets from.

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Speaker 8: So it's helpful to kind of remember that when he's

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Speaker 8: escalating too, there's probably something to work through underneath that.

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Speaker 4: So thank you Thinks.

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Speaker 7: For lessons and insights.

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Speaker 2: Couples tend to escalate a lot, especially when they're dealing

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Speaker 2: with conflictual issues like Beth and Ryan were, but they

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Speaker 2: also learn how to manage their feelings and to de

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Speaker 2: escalate and to prevent that, and their healthy communication has improved.

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Speaker 2: And so for couples, when they do that kind of

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Speaker 2: work with their emotional regulation and their healthy communication is improving.

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Speaker 2: It's really beneficial for the kids. The kids get to

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Speaker 2: see good modeling. They learn that you can be upset,

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Speaker 2: but you can also manage those feelings and cope with

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Speaker 2: all the frustrations that you might have when you love someone.

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Speaker 2: So I think they're doing a great job of not

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Speaker 2: just managing their own relationship, but really modeling a new

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Speaker 2: and improved one for their kids.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 1: One of their concerns about where they were going to

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Speaker 1: live was how that was going to affect the lives

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Speaker 1: of their kids. They wanted to pick a place that

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Speaker 1: not only each of them wanted to be in, but

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Speaker 1: where would their kids have the best upbringing. One of

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Speaker 1: the best gifts that you can give your kids is

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Speaker 1: modeling emotional regulation. Modeling what do you do with your

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Speaker 1: feelings and when you have parents who can communicate well

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Speaker 1: and effectively and in a healthy way and be vulnerable too.

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Speaker 1: So emotional regulation is not about don't have feelings, It's

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Speaker 1: about being able to have your feelings and then to

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Speaker 1: manage them in a productive way in the family, and

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Speaker 1: no matter where they decide to live, the gift that

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Speaker 1: has come out of this is that their kids are

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Speaker 1: going to get that good modeling from their parents.

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Speaker 2: So communication problems don't just happen between couples. They happen

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Speaker 2: among siblings as well. And when we met Danica, she

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Speaker 2: was really struggling with her younger brother, Blake, who felt

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Speaker 2: very much left out of the family. She and her

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Speaker 2: brother John were older than Blake and his kids. They

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Speaker 2: were quite cruel to him and he has never gotten

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Speaker 2: over it and he feels very much apart from them,

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Speaker 2: and she wants to rectify the situation, but she doesn't

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Speaker 2: know how and anything she's tried hasn't worked. Let's get

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Speaker 2: a reminder of our session with Danica.

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Speaker 4: Blake asked us repeatedly, what does it mean to you

405
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Speaker 4: to be a sibling?

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Speaker 7: To me? Like, what.

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Speaker 4: Can he really count on from us? We would say, well,

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Speaker 4: what does family look like for you? And it would

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Speaker 4: be I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think because what he's trying to convey to you

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Speaker 2: is a feeling, and the feeling that he has is

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Speaker 2: that I'm not part of this group.

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Speaker 6: Still, what have those conversations been like where you go

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Speaker 6: back and take full responsibility for the extent of the

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Speaker 6: pain that you caused him.

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Speaker 4: It's very emotional, you know, to say that, yes, I

417
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Speaker 4: was awful, you were very much on your own as

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Speaker 4: like a five or a six year old. Yes, I

419
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Speaker 4: did ignore you, didn't play with you. To have said

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Speaker 4: that I wish you weren't born, you know, to a

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Speaker 4: little kid like that, and I have said that I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: So let's hear how things are going between them now, Hi.

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Speaker 4: Laurie, Hi guy. Unfortunately, I can't say that there has

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Speaker 4: been dramatic changes. So what has changed is I try

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Speaker 4: to reach out to Blake more regularly. He actually doesn't

426
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Speaker 4: seem all that receptive towards phone calls. He's pretty sensitive

427
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Speaker 4: about feeling like I'm making a forced effort to contact him.

428
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Speaker 4: I don't think he likes feeling like I'm contacting him

429
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Speaker 4: out of obligation or as like a chore, and so

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Speaker 4: he doesn't like having scheduled calls. So I've been texting

431
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Speaker 4: him more and catching up that way.

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Speaker 2: You know, Laurie, there might not be dramatic changes in

433
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Speaker 2: how Blake feels, but there are meaningful changes in Danaka's

434
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Speaker 2: understanding of the dynamics between them in how they communicate. Blake,

435
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Speaker 2: for example, convoys that he needs her efforts to feel authentic,

436
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Speaker 2: and when she hears that, she goes okay. So maybe

437
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Speaker 2: scheduled calls doesn't do that. Let's pivot to texts because

438
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Speaker 2: those tend to be most spontaneous and casual, and maybe

439
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Speaker 2: that will feel better to him. So she's willing to

440
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Speaker 2: change what she's doing and try and find ways to

441
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Speaker 2: connect with him, and so far it doesn't sound like

442
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Speaker 2: it's gone amazingly will but the fact that those efforts

443
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Speaker 2: are going forth, that he's able to voice his concerns,

444
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Speaker 2: that she's able to hear them, that's an improvement.

445
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: And building trust takes a lot of time, and I

446
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: think there were two things that were really important for

447
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: Danica to keep in mind when it came to Blake.

448
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: The first was that he did want to have the

449
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: sense of being part of the family, feeling like he

450
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: was one of the siblings, and that there wasn't this

451
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: kind of feeling of being an outsider. But I think

452
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: the other part that was extremely important was for Danica

453
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: to acknowledge and very directly that she did not treat

454
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: him well as a child, and I think he really

455
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: needs to hear that and to hear it from an

456
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 1: authentic place where she really gets it. And I think

457
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: in our session it did take a little bit of

458
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 1: work for her to really get to a place where

459
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: she could do that without the butts or the reasons why.

460
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: And the more that that happens, the more trust will

461
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: develop between the two of them.

462
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: The other thing in the session was that she kept

463
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 2: tethering herself to John, to the other brother and at

464
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 2: least it sounds like the communication now is just between

465
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: Danica and Blake in that way, so it's not we

466
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: me and John and then Blake is over there. It's

467
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 2: Danika trying to fold some kind of connection that's just

468
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 2: her and Blake. Let's hear some more from Danica.

469
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 4: I do feel more at peace with how things are.

470
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 4: It was helpful talking with you and for me either.

471
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 4: The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with

472
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 4: Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship

473
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 4: because of our circumstances in childhood and how that's still

474
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 4: carrying over into adulthood, and that kind of framing really

475
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 4: helped me feel less confused about what it was that

476
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 4: Blake was looking towards me for and to some extent,

477
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 4: what it is that he's looking for me now. I

478
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 4: think for us it's going to be a matter of

479
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 4: incremental improvements as I show consistency in reaching out to

480
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 4: him and taking an interest in his life, hopefully will

481
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 4: cease positive change over time. Thank you again for all

482
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 4: of your help and time and insights.

483
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: One of the things that happens when you have parents

484
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: who maybe aren't really as present as you would like

485
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: them to be, and you're the younger sibling and then

486
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: you have two older siblings who are very close with

487
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 1: each other, is that those two older siblings become the

488
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: surrogate parents. And Blake was really left alone so much

489
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: of the time on his own with nobody there, and

490
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: Danica talked about how neglectful she and John and her

491
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: brother were toward Blake, And so I think that there's

492
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: some of that repair work to do around that piece

493
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: in terms of not only what happened, but who are

494
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: they to each other now as adults where there isn't

495
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: that parental relationship, but they really are adult siblings. And

496
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: I think Danica still has this story in her head

497
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: that somehow she has so much more in common with

498
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: John and she can't possibly find overlap with these interests

499
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: with Blake, even though they did when they were in

500
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: their early twenties have some of that relationship where they

501
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: found some overlap. And I think she has more work

502
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: to do to understand why she's so blocked there, because

503
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: I think that when she gets unblocked there, she will

504
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: naturally become more authentic in the way she relates to Blake,

505
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: and Blake will feel her presence in a way that

506
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: he never did as that abandoned little child growing up.

507
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: I agree, And I think the part of the hurdle

508
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 2: Danka faces is that she is very sensitized to how

509
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 2: hurt Blake is and how rejected he still feels so

510
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: many years later. And I think that that makes it

511
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: very difficult for her because we're saying to her, yeah,

512
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: be authentic with him, but it's so hard to be

513
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: authentic when she's worried about hurting his feelings, when she's

514
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 2: worried about saying the wrong things. And so I think

515
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 2: it's really a delicate, difficult path that she has to

516
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 2: find there, And I think the best way for her

517
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: to find it is really just to get interested in

518
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: who this person is now as an adult, get to

519
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: know him in a way that you haven't before you're

520
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: both older. You get to know him, ask him questions.

521
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: Almost start from scratch, and I hope she can get

522
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: over the hesitation she has because of wanting to not

523
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: hurt him in any way, shape or form again, so

524
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: that she can be more authentic with him and he

525
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: would feel that and probably respond quite well to me.

526
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: I like what you said about starting from scratch, because

527
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: I think these roles that we have as children become

528
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: so ingrained that it's very hard to pivot from them,

529
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: and so I think that we do have to do

530
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: this with our siblings as adults, no matter what the

531
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: issue is, is to really start from scratch and not

532
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: be like, well, you were always the smart one, or

533
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: you were always the favored one, or you were always

534
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: the beautiful one, or you know, whatever it might be,

535
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: and to really say who are we now that we

536
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: are adults and we are not children living in that

537
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: house anymore.

538
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: And I think any siblings who have not had a

539
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: close relationship as adults can do that. Get to know

540
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: one another as if you were strangers. And you'll be

541
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: really surprised to learn who that sibling is now and

542
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: for them to get to know who you are now.

543
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: And it's a great way to think about how to

544
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: connect with siblings or any family members with whom you

545
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: haven't been closed and adulted.

546
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: And I think that starts with curiosity, being really curious

547
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: about the other person, and not just in the sibling situation,

548
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: but I think in any situation where we're talking about

549
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: improving communication, it has to start with curiosity. You're listening

550
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back

551
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: after a short break, so I'm thinking about the last

552
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,719
Speaker 1: person we're going to catch up with today, and that

553
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: is Amy. And Amy came to us because she was

554
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with the fact that her boyfriend that she was

555
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: very serious with was still taking care of his ex

556
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: girlfriend's dog and I think the dog was actually living

557
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: with him at times, and the boundaries just seemed very

558
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: blurred to her and she did not know how to

559
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: communicate effectively with him around this. So let's get a

560
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: reminder of what was going on.

561
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 9: I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never

562
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 9: met this person, but I hate her already.

563
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 5: Because she is.

564
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: In the middle of our relationship.

565
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: You are very clear with him that the dog bothers you,

566
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: but you also say that you don't want to tell

567
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: him what to do about the friendship quote unquote correct

568
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: with this X if you feel comfortable saying to him,

569
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: this dog shouldn't be here, why don't you feel comfortable

570
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: saying and your friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing

571
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: and sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in

572
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: the picture either.

573
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: I guess you doubt yourself. I think, Okay, does this.

574
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 9: Dog represent the woman? Is this dog a connection? Or

575
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 9: am I just totally over analyzing a situation. Can he

576
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 9: have a friendship with this person? I mean, he has

577
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 9: mentioned that he's known for twenty something years, But I said,

578
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 9: this is not a friend. I said, I don't have

579
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 9: sex with my friends.

580
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: You know, Laurie, Amy had reason to be concerned about

581
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: his ex because she had a history of sabotaging his relationships,

582
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: including his marriage, So there was all kinds of reasons

583
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: for concern. There here where Amy is today and the

584
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: dog and the boyfriend.

585
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 9: Hi, Laurien guy, this is Amy. I am happy to

586
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 9: report that my boyfriend and I are still together and

587
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 9: the dog has not reappeared, and neither has the ex girlfriend.

588
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 9: Something that I have learned and reflected on a lot, though,

589
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 9: is I don't know that the dog incident was isolated.

590
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 9: And what I mean by that is, I think it's

591
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 9: tied to bigger issues. I know we spoke about boundaries,

592
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 9: so it's tied to bigger issues of boundaries and also guilt.

593
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 9: I know he suffers from just an incredible amount of

594
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 9: guilt from his divorce and not being able to spend

595
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,719
Speaker 9: time with his kids. So I think the dog not

596
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 9: only for him did it mean a failed relationship guilt again,

597
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 9: but giving it back was also for him. He felt

598
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 9: guilty because he wasn't sure it was going to be

599
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 9: well taken care of well.

600
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: I think Amy's right that it's never just about the dog,

601
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: and member that her boyfriend had so much guilt that

602
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: he was holding about having disappointed his wife and leaving

603
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: the marriage, and then the question of what was going

604
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: to happen to his kids and how were they going

605
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: to be affected by the divorce, and then how was

606
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: his ex girlfriend going to feel. They also had an

607
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: on again, off again relationship that kept reappearing, but they

608
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: were also friends for a very long time, and he

609
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: was going to disappoint her. So I think there were

610
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: so many things going on for him in addition to

611
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: the bigger issue of really cutting ties with that part

612
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: of his life and being able to move on to

613
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: a healthy relationship with Amy.

614
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: And I think what we usually see in our office

615
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: is that when somebody has murky boundaries in one area,

616
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: for example, who's taking care of the dog, we will

617
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: find those milky boundaries in another area. People tend to

618
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: either like clarity or avoid creating it. And if he's

619
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,479
Speaker 2: the kind of person that really finds it hard to

620
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: set clear boundaries and expectations in his own head, let

621
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: alone for others, that's probably something that goes on in

622
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: all kinds of different areas of his life.

623
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: And I think it's very hopeful that when they had

624
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: a direct conversation about this, that he really stepped up

625
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: and set those boundaries that he was saying to her,

626
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: you were important to me, I value you, and I

627
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: know that I need to do this for our relationship

628
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: to succeed. And I think that sent her a very

629
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: strong message of support. So let's hear what else happened.

630
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 9: I think the biggest hurdle we have is when they

631
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 9: got divorced while it was amicable, because he felt so guilty,

632
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 9: he assumed ninety nine point nine percent of all the

633
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,479
Speaker 9: financial responsibilities. His ex wife doesn't work. She still has

634
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 9: a credit card with him, which is supposed to be

635
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:03,959
Speaker 9: exclusively for growth trees things for the kids, but it's

636
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 9: just really murky. I mean, they are legally divorced, but

637
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 9: he still pays for everything. So that's a really big

638
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 9: challenge for us right now because we're communicating very openly

639
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 9: about it. How if it's not fixed, we can't move forward.

640
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 9: He's slow to act, and I know why. I know

641
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 9: he doesn't. He doesn't like conflict, so he feels like

642
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 9: by engaging in this negotiation, the ex wife might prevent

643
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 9: him from seeing his kids as often as he liked

644
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 9: because they co parent, and might even request SPO custody.

645
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 9: So that's the big hurdle that we're facing now. And

646
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,959
Speaker 9: I reflect a lot on what you said, Laurie during

647
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 9: our last call, which was make sure you don't wait

648
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 9: too long. So thank you again for listening.

649
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's great that she got the message

650
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: that she shouldn't wait too long to have these conversations,

651
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: because she talked about how he avoids conflict, and I

652
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: think that when you're in a relationship with someone who

653
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: avoids conflict, it's really important that you don't become complicit

654
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: in that that you then don't say, well, I'm just

655
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: not going to bring it up because I know that

656
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: it makes the other person uncomfortable for me to bring

657
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: it up. And I think that that worked very well

658
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: with setting some clear boundaries around the other woman with

659
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: the dog, who he had trouble not having sex with

660
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: whenever she would come around. And while there were times

661
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: where he could hold that boundary, there were times when

662
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: he couldn't. So that was a very clear cut situation

663
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: where she knew what she needed, he knew if he

664
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: wanted to have this relationship with Amy, and that seemed

665
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: to work out well so far. I think here it's

666
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: a little more complicated because not only is he conflict avoidant,

667
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: but there's a real consequence to bringing this up with

668
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: his ex wife, which is that it might affect how

669
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: she handles the custody situation around the kids, And so

670
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: I think that it's important for them to really talk

671
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: about money in their relationship and how money is going

672
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 1: to be handled between them and also with his kids

673
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: and his ex wife. But I think she also has

674
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: to understand that there's a consequence out there for him

675
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: that he kind of has to dance around a little

676
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 1: bit differently. So it doesn't mean don't set the boundary.

677
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: It means they're really going to have to work together

678
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: to come up with something that works for both of

679
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: them in this relationship.

680
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: And here again, as we've seen in the other updates,

681
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: communication is absolutely key because Amy has a need to

682
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 2: have clarity about what are the parameters of our relationship

683
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: hers and her boyfriends, and that is related to the

684
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: parameters of his relationship with his ex wife, his parenting,

685
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: all those things. And I'm really glad to hear that

686
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: Amy is still as she was when we spoke to her,

687
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 2: really clear about being able to voice what her needs

688
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 2: and feelings are and getting her boyfriend, who is much

689
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: less prone to clarity, to become more and more clear

690
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 2: about his needs and feelings and what she can expect.

691
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: And I think that when two people start communicating, it's

692
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 1: beneficial to both people. So it's not like they started

693
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: communicating and Amy got things in the relationship that benefit her,

694
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: but it also benefits him to be in a healthier

695
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: relationship with Amy, and in this case, to really examine

696
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: his guilt and his avoidance and his blurry boundaries that

697
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: maybe have tripped him up in relationships before, so that

698
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: he can have a healthier path moving forward. So he's

699
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: got to really differentiate here, what are some boundaries I

700
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: can set around money with my ex, and what are

701
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: some things where it's really the guilt talking and not

702
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: about some negative consequence that might happen. And I think

703
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: that what we've seen with all of the updates that

704
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: we've gotten this week is that communication might not solve

705
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: the problem immediately, but it gets people on a path

706
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: so that they can start to get to a place

707
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: where they will be able to move forward and negotiate

708
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: their relationships in a much smoother way.

709
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: And I think the other thing that we've seen is

710
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 2: that when one person in a family, or in a couple,

711
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 2: or in any kind of relationship starts to communicate more

712
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 2: clearly and more openly, it forces in a way, the

713
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 2: other person to match that or to come toward it,

714
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 2: and so that can really have a ripple effect. I'm

715
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: sure Amy's X is learning a lot about communication from

716
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: being with Amy, and I'm sure that the family members

717
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 2: and partners of all our guests that we covered this

718
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: week have learned from them as well. And so I

719
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: just want to urge our listeners. If you are in

720
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: a situation that you feel is murky, clarify what your

721
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings are and then speak up and communicate

722
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 2: openly with the other person.

723
00:39:53,920 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: Because it always feels like a relief. So next week

724
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: we'll be back with our regular sessions, and we'll be

725
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: talking with a woman who has a history of addictions

726
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: that she is now in recovery for, but she has

727
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: recently developed a new addiction, and that is to shopping.

728
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 7: I didn't realize that that's what was happening until I

729
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 7: was six thousand dollars in debt.

730
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 5: I think that's what makes me feel vulnerable. Is to

731
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 5: say this a loud.

732
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

733
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

734
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, And please help support Dear Therapists by

735
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

736
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

737
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

738
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 2: Big O Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia

739
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: dot com.

740
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

741
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher and Chris Childs. Our interns

742
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lyfton. Special thanks to Alison

743
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

744
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

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00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,280
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