1 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:12,439 Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and 2 00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,599 Speaker 1: we have a quick update. 3 00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something 4 00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:18,439 Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it 5 00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:21,719 Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we 6 00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:24,799 Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we 7 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:25,439 Speaker 2: didn't remember. 8 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:28,079 Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so 9 00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to 10 00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:33,439 Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping 11 00:01:33,559 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most 12 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to 13 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:41,519 Speaker 1: gain value from them. 14 00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy 15 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,199 Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will 16 00:01:48,199 --> 00:01:49,239 Speaker 2: love just as much. 17 00:01:49,479 --> 00:01:52,679 Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 18 00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:55,159 Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 19 00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,159 Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called 20 00:01:58,559 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life, 21 00:02:03,759 --> 00:02:06,519 Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You 22 00:02:06,559 --> 00:02:08,759 Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website. 23 00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 24 00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable 25 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:23,719 Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers, 26 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:26,999 Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should 27 00:02:27,039 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice 28 00:02:29,839 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic. 29 00:02:31,599 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 30 00:02:35,239 --> 00:02:37,719 Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. 31 00:02:38,079 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists. 32 00:02:40,559 --> 00:02:43,319 Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you 33 00:02:43,359 --> 00:02:45,719 Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help 34 00:02:45,799 --> 00:02:48,759 Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes 35 00:02:48,799 --> 00:02:49,479 Speaker 1: in their lives. 36 00:02:50,119 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. 37 00:02:53,239 --> 00:02:56,319 Speaker 1: This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to 38 00:02:56,399 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out. 39 00:02:58,319 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 3: A year later. 40 00:02:59,919 --> 00:03:03,839 Speaker 4: There were two big aha moments that I had after 41 00:03:03,879 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 4: we spoke. One of them was that if I'm not 42 00:03:06,759 --> 00:03:09,279 Speaker 4: able to communicate on what I need, then he's never 43 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 4: going to be able to understand. 44 00:03:11,079 --> 00:03:12,319 Speaker 3: The other is that I. 45 00:03:12,439 --> 00:03:15,479 Speaker 4: Realized I need to be able to communicate what I want, 46 00:03:15,799 --> 00:03:17,999 Speaker 4: and in order for me to be able to communicate that, 47 00:03:18,159 --> 00:03:20,839 Speaker 4: I need to figure it out first. 48 00:03:20,879 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: A quick note, deo therapist is for informational purposes only, 49 00:03:24,239 --> 00:03:27,439 Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not 50 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:31,559 Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always 51 00:03:31,559 --> 00:03:34,559 Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or 52 00:03:34,559 --> 00:03:37,279 Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have 53 00:03:37,519 --> 00:03:41,319 Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, 54 00:03:41,359 --> 00:03:43,919 Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part 55 00:03:43,999 --> 00:03:45,799 Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length 56 00:03:45,839 --> 00:03:48,319 Speaker 2: and clarity. And the sessions you'll hear All names have 57 00:03:48,359 --> 00:03:53,199 Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey Laurie, 58 00:03:53,519 --> 00:03:56,999 Speaker 2: Hi guy, I'm excited about this week's episode. We're checking 59 00:03:56,999 --> 00:03:59,519 Speaker 2: in with four of our guests from season one, Savannah, 60 00:03:59,879 --> 00:04:03,559 Speaker 2: Ryan and Beth, Danika and Aby. I'm really curious to 61 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:06,639 Speaker 2: hear how our sessions have impacted them since we last chatted. 62 00:04:07,199 --> 00:04:07,759 Speaker 5: Yeah, me too. 63 00:04:07,799 --> 00:04:09,799 Speaker 1: And what was interesting about those five p people was 64 00:04:09,839 --> 00:04:12,639 Speaker 1: that all of them had trouble communicating with someone about 65 00:04:12,639 --> 00:04:15,399 Speaker 1: an important issue in their relationships, whether it was with 66 00:04:15,479 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: a spouse or a sibling or a boyfriend. 67 00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 6: Right. 68 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:21,559 Speaker 2: They were avoiding having hard conversations, and that's something so 69 00:04:21,639 --> 00:04:22,439 Speaker 2: many people do. 70 00:04:22,799 --> 00:04:24,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and if any of our listeners have been avoiding 71 00:04:24,919 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: having a hard but necessary conversation, especially one that involves 72 00:04:28,919 --> 00:04:29,959 Speaker 1: setting some boundaries. 73 00:04:30,559 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 5: This episode is for you. 74 00:04:33,319 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 2: The first person we're going to hear from today is Savannah. 75 00:04:36,519 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 2: Savannah and her husband are a young couple, but they're 76 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,399 Speaker 2: dealing with a really difficult issue. Her husband has sickle 77 00:04:42,479 --> 00:04:45,399 Speaker 2: cell anemia, which is a chronic condition that can interfere 78 00:04:45,479 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: with daily life and sometimes cause tremendous pain. 79 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: And Savannah was trying to figure out how to be 80 00:04:51,759 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: there for him as his partner, but also how to 81 00:04:54,719 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: be there for herself because she was really struggling. But 82 00:04:57,519 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: she was trying to protect him by avoiding having important 83 00:05:00,359 --> 00:05:03,439 Speaker 1: discussions about what was actually going on between them, and 84 00:05:03,479 --> 00:05:06,639 Speaker 1: that was having an impact on their marriage. So let's 85 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:08,439 Speaker 1: get a reminder of last season session. 86 00:05:09,479 --> 00:05:14,319 Speaker 4: Was this one supplement that his doctor recommended that's supposed 87 00:05:14,319 --> 00:05:17,119 Speaker 4: to help, but hasn't been taking it in the quantity 88 00:05:17,159 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 4: that he's supposed to be and so it wasn't really helping. 89 00:05:20,439 --> 00:05:22,879 Speaker 1: Do you know why he wasn't taking it? I don't, 90 00:05:23,599 --> 00:05:26,079 Speaker 1: So what happens when you ask him. 91 00:05:26,039 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 4: He kind of brushes it off and just says that 92 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:30,879 Speaker 4: he will or he forgets or something. And then I 93 00:05:30,919 --> 00:05:32,959 Speaker 4: try and remind him any things. I'm putting too much 94 00:05:32,999 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 4: emphasis onto this supplement and it's supposed to have some 95 00:05:36,679 --> 00:05:38,799 Speaker 4: benefits for sickle cell patients. 96 00:05:39,759 --> 00:05:41,439 Speaker 1: You know what I'm hearing is that when you say 97 00:05:41,479 --> 00:05:43,399 Speaker 1: he brushes it off, I think you both brush it 98 00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:48,319 Speaker 1: off because what happens is you're talking about take the supplement, 99 00:05:48,319 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 1: don't take the supplement as opposed. 100 00:05:50,359 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 5: To what's going on emotionally for both of you. 101 00:05:54,559 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 2: And this is in part way you wrote to us 102 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,399 Speaker 2: being able to talk to him more about. Look, this 103 00:05:59,479 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: is really hot for me and I need us to talk. 104 00:06:03,439 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 2: What's your fear. 105 00:06:05,359 --> 00:06:08,759 Speaker 4: I'm definitely scared that our marriage could fall apart. 106 00:06:11,719 --> 00:06:14,319 Speaker 2: Wow, that took me right back to the session. So 107 00:06:14,399 --> 00:06:16,439 Speaker 2: let's hear how things are going for her now. 108 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 4: Hyluriing guy, this is Savannah. One of the biggest changes 109 00:06:20,919 --> 00:06:23,439 Speaker 4: that's happened is not my husband and I moved back 110 00:06:23,479 --> 00:06:25,999 Speaker 4: to the East Coast, which is where we're originally from. 111 00:06:26,319 --> 00:06:28,759 Speaker 4: We are now much closer to both of our families, 112 00:06:28,799 --> 00:06:31,999 Speaker 4: all of our friends, and we just have this huge 113 00:06:32,039 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 4: support network that's been really beneficial for both of us 114 00:06:36,319 --> 00:06:40,679 Speaker 4: over the past few months. And so we're really really 115 00:06:40,719 --> 00:06:43,999 Speaker 4: excited to be back and be closer to the people 116 00:06:44,079 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 4: who are most important to us. 117 00:06:46,719 --> 00:06:48,679 Speaker 1: Well, it's great to hear that they move closer to 118 00:06:48,759 --> 00:06:52,399 Speaker 1: family and friends, because when someone has a chronic illness, 119 00:06:52,799 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: getting social support and having people to go to for help, 120 00:06:56,759 --> 00:07:00,319 Speaker 1: and I mean help both practically and emotionally, both for 121 00:07:00,479 --> 00:07:03,119 Speaker 1: the person who has the chronic illness. 122 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 5: And also for their partner is so important. 123 00:07:05,239 --> 00:07:08,879 Speaker 1: So having that network must be making everything a bit 124 00:07:08,999 --> 00:07:10,159 Speaker 1: easier for both of them. 125 00:07:11,159 --> 00:07:14,279 Speaker 2: That's exactly why we suggested a support group for Savannah, 126 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:16,759 Speaker 2: because her family and friends were so far away. So 127 00:07:16,839 --> 00:07:20,159 Speaker 2: this is such a smart move on their part. I'm 128 00:07:20,199 --> 00:07:23,079 Speaker 2: delighted to hear they did that. Let's hear some more 129 00:07:23,119 --> 00:07:24,759 Speaker 2: from Savannah. 130 00:07:24,799 --> 00:07:28,119 Speaker 4: After we spoke, we made those lists about things we 131 00:07:28,159 --> 00:07:31,879 Speaker 4: wanted to talk to and went through and picked the 132 00:07:31,919 --> 00:07:35,599 Speaker 4: other person's items and had those conversations and it was 133 00:07:35,679 --> 00:07:38,959 Speaker 4: really helpful. And one of the things that came out 134 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:42,439 Speaker 4: of that is just me being more comfortable opening up 135 00:07:42,479 --> 00:07:46,359 Speaker 4: and talking about the things that are important. And so 136 00:07:46,559 --> 00:07:51,519 Speaker 4: since then we've had more open conversations, regardless of how 137 00:07:51,559 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 4: hard they are, and we no longer need to follow 138 00:07:56,799 --> 00:08:00,359 Speaker 4: the list. It's a lot more natural now, so that 139 00:08:00,439 --> 00:08:02,999 Speaker 4: has been really amazing to see. 140 00:08:04,279 --> 00:08:05,999 Speaker 1: One of the things that we asked her to do 141 00:08:06,519 --> 00:08:10,159 Speaker 1: was to create a menu to make kind of fun 142 00:08:10,239 --> 00:08:13,399 Speaker 1: with her husband, where they would write down the things 143 00:08:13,479 --> 00:08:15,679 Speaker 1: that they wanted to talk about with each other, and 144 00:08:15,719 --> 00:08:18,399 Speaker 1: then the other person gets to pick from that menu 145 00:08:19,559 --> 00:08:22,799 Speaker 1: what they are going to discuss in that conversation. And 146 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:25,639 Speaker 1: so it kind of lightened things up a little bit 147 00:08:25,679 --> 00:08:29,039 Speaker 1: because these were very heavy topics that they were discussing, 148 00:08:29,799 --> 00:08:32,919 Speaker 1: and it also gave the other person some control over 149 00:08:32,959 --> 00:08:35,159 Speaker 1: what they would talk about, and it sounds like it 150 00:08:35,199 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: really opened up a space for them to continue to 151 00:08:37,239 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: have these kinds of conversations and really get the communication 152 00:08:40,719 --> 00:08:41,879 Speaker 1: going between the two of them. 153 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:45,239 Speaker 2: It really opened up a logjam because when there are 154 00:08:45,359 --> 00:08:49,519 Speaker 2: such important things that aren't being discussed, it's not just 155 00:08:49,639 --> 00:08:52,159 Speaker 2: that they're not being discussed, but then each person has 156 00:08:52,239 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 2: their own feeling and story about why it's not being 157 00:08:54,959 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 2: discussed and why they aren't, why the other person isn't, 158 00:08:57,639 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 2: and so having those discussions just freeze up communication in 159 00:09:01,839 --> 00:09:02,919 Speaker 2: all kinds of ways. 160 00:09:03,159 --> 00:09:05,159 Speaker 1: And I think it's a sign that the homework assignment 161 00:09:05,199 --> 00:09:07,479 Speaker 1: was effective when they're still doing some form of that 162 00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 1: a year later. There's more to savannas update, so let's 163 00:09:10,839 --> 00:09:11,399 Speaker 1: take a listen. 164 00:09:12,319 --> 00:09:16,359 Speaker 4: There were two big moments that I had after we spoke. 165 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:19,119 Speaker 4: One of them was that if I'm not able to 166 00:09:19,159 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 4: communicate on what I need, then he's never going to 167 00:09:21,599 --> 00:09:24,039 Speaker 4: be able to understand and get on the same page. 168 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:28,599 Speaker 4: And while it's difficult, it is necessary. And if I 169 00:09:28,719 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 4: continue to shy away and not speak to it, even 170 00:09:31,959 --> 00:09:34,399 Speaker 4: if I'm doing it for what I think is a 171 00:09:34,439 --> 00:09:38,119 Speaker 4: good reason, We're never going to be able to move forward. 172 00:09:38,599 --> 00:09:40,799 Speaker 4: And so that has been one of the things that's 173 00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:45,639 Speaker 4: changed quite dramatically. The other big moment is that in 174 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 4: order for me to be able to communicate that I 175 00:09:47,919 --> 00:09:52,599 Speaker 4: need to figure it out. And so I am now 176 00:09:52,959 --> 00:09:57,279 Speaker 4: constantly working on figuring out what it is that I 177 00:09:57,399 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 4: want from life for myself and for our relationship. And 178 00:10:01,639 --> 00:10:05,159 Speaker 4: it has been a really fun process, kind of scary, 179 00:10:05,319 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 4: but also necessary. And going through that process us and 180 00:10:10,079 --> 00:10:14,119 Speaker 4: bringing him into that has been truly helpful. It's brought 181 00:10:14,159 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 4: us closer, and you know, I think he appreciates me 182 00:10:17,719 --> 00:10:22,399 Speaker 4: doing something for myself that is going to benefit the 183 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 4: both of us. Thank you again, and I'm really excited 184 00:10:25,359 --> 00:10:28,039 Speaker 4: to see what the future has in store for us. 185 00:10:28,999 --> 00:10:31,399 Speaker 2: This is something our listeners might be able to see 186 00:10:31,439 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 2: in their own lives. Here's how this happens. When you 187 00:10:33,879 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 2: feel unable to communicate your feelings and needs to someone 188 00:10:36,999 --> 00:10:39,799 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, you can lose touch with what those 189 00:10:39,879 --> 00:10:42,159 Speaker 2: feelings and needs are because what's the point in trying 190 00:10:42,159 --> 00:10:44,239 Speaker 2: to figure them out if you're not going to communicate them, 191 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 2: And that can become such a vicious cycle. 192 00:10:48,719 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 1: Well, sometimes when we feel shut down in a relationship, 193 00:10:51,799 --> 00:10:54,479 Speaker 1: we realize that we're the ones shutting ourselves down. You 194 00:10:54,519 --> 00:10:57,399 Speaker 1: see how he was very receptive and welcomed, and it 195 00:10:57,399 --> 00:11:00,279 Speaker 1: was almost a relief to him to be able to 196 00:11:00,319 --> 00:11:02,159 Speaker 1: open up these lines of communication, and I think for 197 00:11:02,239 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: both of them. So sometimes we don't realize it, but 198 00:11:04,759 --> 00:11:07,119 Speaker 1: we're the ones who are shutting ourselves down because we're 199 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:11,479 Speaker 1: afraid of what might happen if we voice what we're 200 00:11:11,479 --> 00:11:14,039 Speaker 1: really thinking or feeling. So I think this is a 201 00:11:14,079 --> 00:11:17,479 Speaker 1: great lesson for people that first get in touch with 202 00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:20,399 Speaker 1: what you're thinking and feeling and then make sure that 203 00:11:20,479 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: you communicate it. 204 00:11:22,239 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: And this is a dynamic that we see often in 205 00:11:24,119 --> 00:11:26,359 Speaker 2: couples in which one of them has a chronic illness 206 00:11:26,479 --> 00:11:30,239 Speaker 2: or they're going through an extended crisis that their communication 207 00:11:30,439 --> 00:11:34,039 Speaker 2: starts to become transactional. They talk about all the stuff 208 00:11:34,079 --> 00:11:37,399 Speaker 2: that needs to get done, and they stop going deeper. 209 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 2: One person feels hesitant to bring up their feelings because 210 00:11:40,999 --> 00:11:44,279 Speaker 2: they don't want to overburden the person who's suffering. Meanwhile, 211 00:11:44,279 --> 00:11:47,279 Speaker 2: the person who's suffering is feeling guilty about putting out 212 00:11:47,599 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 2: their partner, and so they sit on their feelings and 213 00:11:50,119 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 2: it can really create this dynamic in which they basically 214 00:11:53,759 --> 00:11:55,519 Speaker 2: stop talking about meaningful things. 215 00:11:55,799 --> 00:11:59,119 Speaker 1: And it sounds like Savannah and her husband have started 216 00:11:59,159 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: to find those things again. What are the other parts 217 00:12:02,199 --> 00:12:03,919 Speaker 1: of their lives that they had been neglecting. 218 00:12:07,359 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 2: You're listening to Dear Therapists out radio. We'll be back 219 00:12:11,119 --> 00:12:20,759 Speaker 2: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy 220 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:22,639 Speaker 2: Wench and this is THEO Therapist. 221 00:12:25,479 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 1: So really, with Savannah, it ended up being a session 222 00:12:27,719 --> 00:12:31,279 Speaker 1: about communication, and communication between couples comes up so much, 223 00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:34,039 Speaker 1: but usually we just hear from one person in the couple. 224 00:12:34,199 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: And in this next follow up, we have Ryan and 225 00:12:36,959 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 1: Beth from season one who came on the show together 226 00:12:39,839 --> 00:12:42,279 Speaker 1: to help resolve a disagreement that they've had for the 227 00:12:42,439 --> 00:12:45,359 Speaker 1: entire length of their marriage, they haven't been able to 228 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: agree on where they should live, and they both had 229 00:12:49,119 --> 00:12:54,239 Speaker 1: very compelling reasons to want to be in their respective cities, 230 00:12:54,799 --> 00:12:57,999 Speaker 1: and they've been in an impasse for a very long time. 231 00:12:58,479 --> 00:12:59,799 Speaker 5: Let's get a reminder. 232 00:13:00,479 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 7: The level of importance that she and I would say 233 00:13:05,839 --> 00:13:09,159 Speaker 7: each of us put on being near family. After the 234 00:13:09,479 --> 00:13:15,919 Speaker 7: first eight years of our relationship, we had no family around, 235 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:18,279 Speaker 7: and the fact that all of a sudden that was 236 00:13:18,319 --> 00:13:24,399 Speaker 7: like a number one primary desire was a little bit surprising, 237 00:13:24,439 --> 00:13:26,159 Speaker 7: I guess, so that would probably be my take. 238 00:13:27,239 --> 00:13:31,159 Speaker 8: I think I learned how much you really didn't want 239 00:13:31,199 --> 00:13:31,919 Speaker 8: to live in New York. 240 00:13:33,119 --> 00:13:36,479 Speaker 3: I think I thought you were trying, but you were 241 00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:38,399 Speaker 3: really just over it and wanted to get out of there. 242 00:13:39,359 --> 00:13:43,359 Speaker 9: I don't know if that's true. 243 00:13:44,279 --> 00:13:47,759 Speaker 1: So often when we see couples in therapy, people assume 244 00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:51,399 Speaker 1: that they're coming to us because they are arguing all 245 00:13:51,439 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: the time. There's a lot of acrimony between them, and 246 00:13:55,199 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: that's often not the case. In Ryan and best case, 247 00:13:58,759 --> 00:14:01,799 Speaker 1: they had this decision to make about where to live 248 00:14:02,079 --> 00:14:05,159 Speaker 1: and for their entire marriage, even though they loved each 249 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: other very much and were able to communicate about other 250 00:14:07,999 --> 00:14:11,599 Speaker 1: things pretty well. They weren't able to resolve this issue 251 00:14:11,599 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: of do we live where Ryan's parents live or do 252 00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:17,799 Speaker 1: we live where Beth's mom lives, And it was a 253 00:14:17,999 --> 00:14:21,159 Speaker 1: very big issue that was causing a lot of resentment 254 00:14:21,559 --> 00:14:22,399 Speaker 1: for both of them. 255 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:26,159 Speaker 5: So let's hear what happened since the session. 256 00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:30,919 Speaker 9: This is Beth and this is Ryan. Good news is 257 00:14:30,959 --> 00:14:32,439 Speaker 9: we are communicating better. 258 00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:38,519 Speaker 8: Yeah, and from just a point of view for twenty 259 00:14:38,559 --> 00:14:41,839 Speaker 8: twenty one versus where we were in twenty twenty. We 260 00:14:42,519 --> 00:14:45,559 Speaker 8: went through an entire first floor innovation on our house 261 00:14:45,999 --> 00:14:48,359 Speaker 8: and one of our mantras was we will not divorce 262 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:51,479 Speaker 8: over this, and we didn't, so. 263 00:14:51,679 --> 00:14:53,479 Speaker 5: That's good success. 264 00:14:53,959 --> 00:14:59,039 Speaker 8: We successfully also visited with family, which was really important 265 00:14:59,079 --> 00:15:03,999 Speaker 8: and helpful for all of those relationships. And it sounds 266 00:15:03,999 --> 00:15:06,119 Speaker 8: a little silly when you're a grown up, but we've 267 00:15:06,159 --> 00:15:12,639 Speaker 8: made some friends and that feels like really important outlets 268 00:15:12,839 --> 00:15:18,199 Speaker 8: for both of us. Made friends through different exercise programs 269 00:15:18,559 --> 00:15:22,879 Speaker 8: and a lot of our friends overlap and it's been 270 00:15:23,079 --> 00:15:23,679 Speaker 8: huge for us. 271 00:15:24,079 --> 00:15:26,719 Speaker 9: Yeah, and just tonight I went over and helped the 272 00:15:26,719 --> 00:15:30,639 Speaker 9: neighbor move a bed and it felt very neighborly unsettled 273 00:15:30,919 --> 00:15:32,119 Speaker 9: and it was nice. 274 00:15:33,999 --> 00:15:37,719 Speaker 1: So it sounds like they're settling into where they have been, 275 00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:40,599 Speaker 1: which is where Ryan's family is. And I think the 276 00:15:40,639 --> 00:15:43,399 Speaker 1: important piece here is that they're learning to communicate with 277 00:15:43,479 --> 00:15:47,079 Speaker 1: each other differently. And once they have started to communicate 278 00:15:47,159 --> 00:15:50,279 Speaker 1: differently with each other, you can see how that opens 279 00:15:50,439 --> 00:15:52,039 Speaker 1: up the possibilities. 280 00:15:52,599 --> 00:15:55,039 Speaker 2: Part of what was happening with them because of this 281 00:15:55,119 --> 00:15:58,239 Speaker 2: disagreement about geography was they weren't really making a home 282 00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:02,479 Speaker 2: anywhere anywhere, And so at least now they're starting to 283 00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:06,399 Speaker 2: actually make a home, put down roots, make friends, do 284 00:16:06,479 --> 00:16:10,959 Speaker 2: the things you need to do to feel you belong somewhere. 285 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:14,359 Speaker 1: And I think that's important because as an adult, it's 286 00:16:14,439 --> 00:16:17,239 Speaker 1: much harder to make friends, especially in a new place, 287 00:16:17,319 --> 00:16:19,719 Speaker 1: because I think that for most of us as adults, 288 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:22,879 Speaker 1: we either have made friends when we were younger that 289 00:16:22,959 --> 00:16:25,359 Speaker 1: come with us in some way, or were already ensconced 290 00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:28,199 Speaker 1: in a community and we've established roots there and they 291 00:16:28,239 --> 00:16:29,679 Speaker 1: hadn't done that yet. 292 00:16:29,439 --> 00:16:30,839 Speaker 5: Or we make them through our kids. 293 00:16:31,399 --> 00:16:34,799 Speaker 1: And here she was really making an effort to kind 294 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:36,799 Speaker 1: of feel settled and make this place her home. 295 00:16:37,839 --> 00:16:40,879 Speaker 2: So let's hear some more from Ryan and Beth. 296 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:46,759 Speaker 9: I think it helped us recognize that we did have 297 00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:49,359 Speaker 9: one upsmanship, and so we came to realize that we 298 00:16:49,399 --> 00:16:52,599 Speaker 9: needed to back off of that and focus on the 299 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:57,959 Speaker 9: tender core and getting past those hard outer feelings. So 300 00:16:58,039 --> 00:17:00,719 Speaker 9: that I think helped us a lot as we talked 301 00:17:00,799 --> 00:17:04,279 Speaker 9: through our communication challenges. 302 00:17:04,479 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 8: Yeah, and that this doesn't have to be bring smanship, 303 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,799 Speaker 8: it doesn't have to be know well, my pain is 304 00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:13,559 Speaker 8: worse than your pain and we can hold both at 305 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 8: the same time, and that's life. And I think it 306 00:17:16,199 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 8: helped us both really understand that about each other. 307 00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:21,039 Speaker 5: I think we've also. 308 00:17:20,879 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 9: Let ourselves feel settled. 309 00:17:22,199 --> 00:17:24,279 Speaker 8: I think that was one of the things that Laurie 310 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,959 Speaker 8: pointed out, that if we're always feeling a little like 311 00:17:28,039 --> 00:17:31,079 Speaker 8: we're nomads, then will we ever feel settled and will 312 00:17:31,079 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 8: we ever feel good about. 313 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:33,039 Speaker 2: Where we are? 314 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,039 Speaker 8: And we have met some great people and our kids 315 00:17:36,399 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 8: are settled, I would say, in good community and family nearby. 316 00:17:39,719 --> 00:17:42,319 Speaker 8: In all of that, so I think things are going better. 317 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 8: I think we're communicating better. I think that realization about 318 00:17:45,719 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 8: the tender core underneath the heart out or shell to 319 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,599 Speaker 8: sound cliched was kind of a game changer, just thinking through, Yeah, 320 00:17:54,439 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 8: how you can want to hide true emotions. 321 00:17:59,639 --> 00:18:03,759 Speaker 9: And then I'll say it has helped me have more 322 00:18:03,879 --> 00:18:07,999 Speaker 9: direct and open conversations with many of my male friends, 323 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 9: which is not something that we generally do. So it's 324 00:18:11,479 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 9: been positive to help me work through that tough, manly 325 00:18:15,639 --> 00:18:19,479 Speaker 9: outer shell that many of us carry and talk more 326 00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 9: openly with men. 327 00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: What I think is really hopeful here is that no 328 00:18:23,919 --> 00:18:26,799 Speaker 1: matter what they end up deciding, and I don't think 329 00:18:26,799 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: that they're quite there yet. I think that Beth is 330 00:18:29,279 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: kind of trying this on right now and it might 331 00:18:31,399 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: not be where they ultimately end up, but I think 332 00:18:33,919 --> 00:18:37,839 Speaker 1: what's important here is that they've learned what was tripping 333 00:18:37,879 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 1: them up in the kind of communication they had around this, 334 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:43,719 Speaker 1: which can also translate to the other kinds of conversations 335 00:18:43,799 --> 00:18:46,519 Speaker 1: that they will inevitably have to have in the course 336 00:18:46,559 --> 00:18:47,279 Speaker 1: of a marriage. 337 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:48,839 Speaker 5: And one of the things that they were. 338 00:18:48,719 --> 00:18:51,839 Speaker 1: Doing was they had this, whose pain is greater if 339 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: I go to your city, will my pain be greater? 340 00:18:54,759 --> 00:18:57,279 Speaker 1: So therefore we should go to my city, And it 341 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: was sort of this one upsmanship, you know, the pain 342 00:18:59,679 --> 00:19:02,479 Speaker 1: Olympics that they were going through, and I think that 343 00:19:02,519 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: they're starting to realize, wait a minute, there also are 344 00:19:05,239 --> 00:19:09,319 Speaker 1: reasons that each of us wants to be in these respectives, 345 00:19:10,159 --> 00:19:12,559 Speaker 1: and when they could see the very tender parts of 346 00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:15,079 Speaker 1: each other and the very vulnerable parts of each other, 347 00:19:15,239 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: it gave them so much more compassion for the other 348 00:19:17,959 --> 00:19:21,839 Speaker 1: person and for the other person's reasons for wanting to 349 00:19:21,879 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: be somewhere else, and also the sacrifices that they would 350 00:19:24,719 --> 00:19:27,079 Speaker 1: be making if they ended up in a city that 351 00:19:27,199 --> 00:19:29,039 Speaker 1: was not their first choice. 352 00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 2: And I think Ryan is being very supportive, which is great, 353 00:19:33,639 --> 00:19:36,479 Speaker 2: but really my head soft to Beth. I think she 354 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:40,079 Speaker 2: went from being in such a rigid place of that 355 00:19:40,239 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: Brenksmanship of the Pan Olympics, so known I could never 356 00:19:43,479 --> 00:19:46,559 Speaker 2: ever ever be happy there, and one of the exercises 357 00:19:46,599 --> 00:19:49,319 Speaker 2: we actually gave her was to imagine being happy there. 358 00:19:50,199 --> 00:19:52,319 Speaker 2: But I think she did such a great job of 359 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 2: opening up and really giving it a chance and being 360 00:19:56,679 --> 00:19:59,239 Speaker 2: very authentic about it. And my hands off to her. 361 00:19:59,279 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: That was a big, big shift that she did. 362 00:20:03,199 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: And I would also say hats off to Ryan because 363 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: he really was able, for maybe the very first time 364 00:20:09,399 --> 00:20:12,999 Speaker 1: his life, to go to that more vulnerable place that 365 00:20:13,079 --> 00:20:17,079 Speaker 1: he tends to avoid, and he was talking about how 366 00:20:17,639 --> 00:20:20,039 Speaker 1: he normally doesn't go there, and I think that that 367 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: happens more often with men than with women. And I 368 00:20:23,919 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: don't want to make a sweeping statement about gender, but 369 00:20:27,199 --> 00:20:30,239 Speaker 1: I see that in our culture we tend to give 370 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: a message to men that being vulnerable is weak. And 371 00:20:34,959 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: what Ryan did was not only was he able to 372 00:20:36,919 --> 00:20:39,559 Speaker 1: be vulnerable with Beth, but then he started to be 373 00:20:40,319 --> 00:20:43,279 Speaker 1: more open and vulnerable with his male friends. And I 374 00:20:43,319 --> 00:20:46,239 Speaker 1: think that that really speaks to the shift that he 375 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: made from this conversation. 376 00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 2: And Ryan and Beth had one last thing to share 377 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 2: with us. 378 00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:55,239 Speaker 9: One of the things I realized was we were also 379 00:20:55,599 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 9: escalating with our kids. Oh yeah, and so it's helped 380 00:20:59,439 --> 00:21:03,759 Speaker 9: us be better parents of don't escalate and just be 381 00:21:04,239 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 9: open and love them and hug them if need be, 382 00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 9: but don't escalate. That was wonderful guidance for parenting. 383 00:21:12,719 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 8: Yeah, with marriage, our older son is an escalator. I 384 00:21:16,999 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 8: don't know where he gets from, so it's helpful to 385 00:21:20,039 --> 00:21:23,559 Speaker 8: kind of remember that when he's escalating too, there's probably 386 00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:30,599 Speaker 8: something to work through underneath that. So thank you, thanks. 387 00:21:30,399 --> 00:21:31,839 Speaker 9: For lessons and insights. 388 00:21:32,599 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 2: Couples tend to escalate a lot, especially when they're dealing 389 00:21:35,679 --> 00:21:40,559 Speaker 2: with conflictual issues like Beth and Ryan were, but they 390 00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:44,239 Speaker 2: also learn how to manage their feelings and to de 391 00:21:44,399 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 2: escalate and to prevent that, and their healthy communication has improved. 392 00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 2: And so for couples when they do that kind of 393 00:21:52,439 --> 00:21:56,319 Speaker 2: work with their emotional regulation and the healthy communication is improving, 394 00:21:56,639 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 2: it's really beneficial for the kids. The kids get to 395 00:21:58,879 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 2: see good modeling. They learn that you can be upset, 396 00:22:01,999 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 2: but you can also manage those feelings and cope with 397 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:07,839 Speaker 2: all the frustrations that you might have when you love someone. 398 00:22:08,159 --> 00:22:10,319 Speaker 2: So I think they're doing a great job of not 399 00:22:10,439 --> 00:22:13,959 Speaker 2: just managing their own relationship, but really modeling a new 400 00:22:13,999 --> 00:22:15,599 Speaker 2: and improved one for their kids. 401 00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: Right one of their concerns about where they were going 402 00:22:18,439 --> 00:22:20,999 Speaker 1: to live was how that was going to affect the 403 00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: lives of their kids. They wanted to pick a place 404 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: that not only each of them wanted to be in, 405 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:28,239 Speaker 1: but where would their kids have the best upbringing. One 406 00:22:28,239 --> 00:22:30,839 Speaker 1: of the best gifts that you can give your kids 407 00:22:31,599 --> 00:22:36,599 Speaker 1: is modeling emotional regulation. Modeling what do you do with 408 00:22:36,679 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: your feelings and when you have parents who can communicate 409 00:22:39,719 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: well and effectively and in a healthy way. 410 00:22:42,679 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 5: And be vulnerable too. 411 00:22:43,999 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: So emotional regulation is not about don't have feelings, It's 412 00:22:47,159 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: about being able to have your feelings and then to 413 00:22:51,439 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: manage them in a productive way in the family. And 414 00:22:55,799 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: no matter where they decide to live, the gift that 415 00:22:58,679 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 1: has come out of this is that their kids are 416 00:23:00,719 --> 00:23:04,039 Speaker 1: going to get that good modeling from their parents. 417 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,079 Speaker 2: So communication problem don't just happen between couples. They happen 418 00:23:12,159 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 2: among siblings as well. And when we met Danica, she 419 00:23:16,839 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 2: was really struggling with her younger brother, Blake, who felt 420 00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:26,599 Speaker 2: very much left out of the family. She and her 421 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:29,999 Speaker 2: brother John were older than Blake and his kids. They 422 00:23:29,999 --> 00:23:33,959 Speaker 2: were quite cruel to him and he has never gotten 423 00:23:33,999 --> 00:23:37,999 Speaker 2: over it, and he feels very much apart from them, 424 00:23:38,079 --> 00:23:41,839 Speaker 2: and she wants to rectify the situation, but she doesn't 425 00:23:41,879 --> 00:23:46,039 Speaker 2: know how and anything she's tried hasn't worked. Let's get 426 00:23:46,039 --> 00:23:47,559 Speaker 2: a reminder of our session with Danica. 427 00:23:48,999 --> 00:23:53,719 Speaker 6: Blake asked us repeatedly, what does it mean to you 428 00:23:53,999 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 6: to be a sibling to me? Like, what what can 429 00:23:59,199 --> 00:24:03,079 Speaker 6: he really count on from us? We would say, well, 430 00:24:03,239 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 6: what does family look like for you? And it would 431 00:24:05,999 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 6: be I don't know, I think. 432 00:24:08,079 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: Because what he's trying to to convey to you is 433 00:24:11,679 --> 00:24:15,239 Speaker 2: a feeling, and the feeling that he has is that 434 00:24:15,319 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 2: I'm not out of this group. 435 00:24:17,719 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: Still, what have those conversations been like where you go 436 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:25,599 Speaker 1: back and take full responsibility for the extent of the 437 00:24:25,639 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: pain that you caused him. 438 00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:33,559 Speaker 6: It's very emotional, you know, to say that, yes, I 439 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 6: was awful, you were very much on your own as 440 00:24:36,719 --> 00:24:39,759 Speaker 6: like a five or a six year old. Yes, I 441 00:24:39,799 --> 00:24:43,239 Speaker 6: did ignore you, didn't play with you. To have said 442 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 6: that I wish you weren't born, you know, to a 443 00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:53,239 Speaker 6: little kid like that, and I have said that I'm sorry. 444 00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:56,839 Speaker 5: So let's hear how things are going between them now. 445 00:24:57,479 --> 00:25:03,039 Speaker 6: Hi, Lourie, Hi guy. Unfortunately, I can't say that there 446 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:09,559 Speaker 6: has been dramatic changes. So what has changed is I 447 00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:14,599 Speaker 6: try to reach out to Blake more regularly. He actually 448 00:25:14,639 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 6: doesn't seem all that receptive towards phone calls. He's pretty 449 00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 6: sensitive about feeling like I'm making a forced effort to 450 00:25:28,599 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 6: contact it. I don't think he likes feeling like I'm 451 00:25:33,639 --> 00:25:38,999 Speaker 6: contacting him out of obligation or as like a chore, 452 00:25:39,479 --> 00:25:44,599 Speaker 6: and so he doesn't like having scheduled calls. So I've 453 00:25:44,639 --> 00:25:49,239 Speaker 6: been texting him more and catching up that way. 454 00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:52,759 Speaker 2: You know, Laurie, there might not be dramatic changes in 455 00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 2: how Blake feels, but there are meaningful changes and Danaka's 456 00:25:56,439 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 2: understanding of the dynamics between them and how they communicate. Blake, 457 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: for example, convoys that he needs her efforts to feel authentic, 458 00:26:03,919 --> 00:26:05,959 Speaker 2: and when she hears that, she goes okay. So maybe 459 00:26:05,999 --> 00:26:10,519 Speaker 2: scheduled calls doesn't do that. Let's pivot to texts because 460 00:26:10,639 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 2: those tend to be most spontaneous and casual, and maybe 461 00:26:13,159 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 2: that will feel better to him. So she's willing to 462 00:26:15,479 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 2: change what she's doing and try and find ways to 463 00:26:17,999 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 2: connect with him, and so far it doesn't sound like 464 00:26:20,919 --> 00:26:23,799 Speaker 2: it's gone amazingly will but the fact that those efforts 465 00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 2: are going forth, that he's able to voice his concerns, 466 00:26:26,879 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 2: that she's able to hear them, that's an improvement. 467 00:26:29,639 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: And building trust takes a lot of time, and I 468 00:26:31,439 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: think there were two things that were really important for 469 00:26:33,999 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: Danica to keep in mind when it came to Blake. 470 00:26:36,679 --> 00:26:39,599 Speaker 1: The first was that he did want to have the 471 00:26:39,679 --> 00:26:43,519 Speaker 1: sense of being part of the family, feeling like he 472 00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 1: was one of the siblings, and that there wasn't this 473 00:26:46,639 --> 00:26:48,999 Speaker 1: kind of feeling of being an outsider. 474 00:26:49,199 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 5: But I think the other part. 475 00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: That was extremely important was for Danica to acknowledge and 476 00:26:54,479 --> 00:26:57,599 Speaker 1: very directly that she did not treat him well as 477 00:26:57,639 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: a child, and I think he really needs to hear 478 00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:03,079 Speaker 1: that and to hear it from an authentic place where 479 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:05,559 Speaker 1: she really gets it. And I think in our session 480 00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:07,999 Speaker 1: it did take a little bit of work for her 481 00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:09,799 Speaker 1: to really get to a place where she could do 482 00:27:09,879 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: that without the butts or the reasons why. And the 483 00:27:13,879 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: more that that happened, the more trust will develop between 484 00:27:16,879 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: the two of them. 485 00:27:18,399 --> 00:27:20,559 Speaker 2: And the other thing in the session was that she 486 00:27:20,719 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 2: kept tethering herself to John, to the other brother and 487 00:27:23,719 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 2: at least it sounds like the communication now is just 488 00:27:26,439 --> 00:27:29,719 Speaker 2: between Danica and Blake in that way, so it's not 489 00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 2: we me and John and then Blake is over there. 490 00:27:32,679 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 2: It's Danika trying to fold some kind of connection that's 491 00:27:36,199 --> 00:27:39,799 Speaker 2: just her and Blake. Let's hear some more from Danica. 492 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:44,559 Speaker 6: I do feel more at peace with how things are. 493 00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:48,839 Speaker 6: It was hopeful talking with you, and for me either, 494 00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:55,239 Speaker 6: the aha moment was how you cast my relationship with 495 00:27:55,279 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 6: Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship 496 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:04,799 Speaker 6: because of our circumstances in childhood, and how that's still 497 00:28:05,639 --> 00:28:11,239 Speaker 6: carrying over into adulthood and that kind of framing really 498 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 6: helped me feel less confused about what it was that 499 00:28:16,879 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 6: Blake was looking towards me for and to some extent, 500 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:25,319 Speaker 6: what it is that he's looking for me now. I 501 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 6: think for us it's going to be a matter of 502 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:36,599 Speaker 6: incremental improvements as I show consistency in reaching out to 503 00:28:36,679 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 6: him and taking an interest in his life, hopefully will 504 00:28:40,919 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 6: cease positive change over time. Thank you again for all 505 00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:50,039 Speaker 6: of your help and time and insights. 506 00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:53,879 Speaker 1: One of the things that happens when you have parents 507 00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:57,439 Speaker 1: who maybe aren't really as present as you would like 508 00:28:57,479 --> 00:28:59,839 Speaker 1: them to be, and you're the younger sibling, and then 509 00:28:59,879 --> 00:29:02,199 Speaker 1: you have two older siblings who are very close with 510 00:29:02,239 --> 00:29:04,839 Speaker 1: each other, is that those two older siblings become the 511 00:29:04,879 --> 00:29:05,839 Speaker 1: surrogate parents. 512 00:29:06,479 --> 00:29:07,559 Speaker 5: And Blake was. 513 00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:11,279 Speaker 1: Really left alone so much of the time on his 514 00:29:11,399 --> 00:29:17,839 Speaker 1: own with nobody there, and Danica talked about how neglectful 515 00:29:17,959 --> 00:29:21,399 Speaker 1: she and John, her brother, were toward Blake, And so 516 00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:24,639 Speaker 1: I think that there's some of that repair work to 517 00:29:24,719 --> 00:29:29,039 Speaker 1: do around that piece in terms of not only what happened, 518 00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:31,559 Speaker 1: but who are they to each other now as adults 519 00:29:31,559 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: where there isn't that parental relationship, but they really are 520 00:29:34,959 --> 00:29:36,799 Speaker 1: adult siblings. 521 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:39,159 Speaker 5: And I think Danica. 522 00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:42,439 Speaker 1: Still has this story in her head that somehow she 523 00:29:42,479 --> 00:29:44,479 Speaker 1: has so much more in common with John and she 524 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:48,279 Speaker 1: can't possibly find overlap with these interests with Blake, even 525 00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:50,159 Speaker 1: though they did when they were in their early twenties 526 00:29:50,239 --> 00:29:53,599 Speaker 1: have some of that relationship where they found some overlap. 527 00:29:53,999 --> 00:29:56,079 Speaker 1: And I think she has more work to do to 528 00:29:56,359 --> 00:29:59,479 Speaker 1: understand why she's so blocked there, because I think that 529 00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:04,119 Speaker 1: when she gets unblocked there, she will naturally become more 530 00:30:04,159 --> 00:30:06,679 Speaker 1: authentic in the way she relates to Blake, and Blake 531 00:30:06,719 --> 00:30:09,599 Speaker 1: will feel her presence in a way that he ever 532 00:30:09,679 --> 00:30:12,279 Speaker 1: did as that abandoned little child growing up. 533 00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:15,919 Speaker 2: I agree, And I think that part of the hurdle 534 00:30:16,159 --> 00:30:20,679 Speaker 2: Danika faces is that she is very sensitized to how 535 00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:25,559 Speaker 2: hurt Blake is and how rejected he still feels so 536 00:30:25,679 --> 00:30:28,239 Speaker 2: many years later. And I think that that makes it 537 00:30:28,439 --> 00:30:30,839 Speaker 2: very difficult for her because we're saying to her, yeah, 538 00:30:30,879 --> 00:30:33,759 Speaker 2: be authentic with him, but it's so hard to be 539 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:36,439 Speaker 2: authentic when she's worried about hurting his feelings, when she's 540 00:30:36,479 --> 00:30:38,759 Speaker 2: worried about saying the wrong things, And so I think 541 00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:42,119 Speaker 2: it's really a delicate, difficult part that she has to 542 00:30:42,199 --> 00:30:44,319 Speaker 2: find there, and I think the best way for her 543 00:30:44,359 --> 00:30:47,039 Speaker 2: to find it is really just to get interested in 544 00:30:47,399 --> 00:30:50,719 Speaker 2: who this person is now as an adult, get to 545 00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:53,479 Speaker 2: know him in a way that you haven't before you're 546 00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:56,159 Speaker 2: both older. You get to know him, ask him questions. 547 00:30:56,239 --> 00:30:59,039 Speaker 2: Almost start from scratch, and I hope she can get 548 00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:01,999 Speaker 2: over the hesitation she has because of wanting to not 549 00:31:02,359 --> 00:31:05,039 Speaker 2: hurt him in any way, shape or form again, so 550 00:31:05,079 --> 00:31:07,759 Speaker 2: that she can be more authentic with him, and he 551 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:10,399 Speaker 2: would feel that and probably respond quite well to me. 552 00:31:10,719 --> 00:31:12,919 Speaker 1: I like what you said about starting from scratch, because 553 00:31:12,959 --> 00:31:15,399 Speaker 1: I think these roles that we have as children become 554 00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:19,959 Speaker 1: so ingrained that it's very hard to pivot from them, 555 00:31:20,239 --> 00:31:22,239 Speaker 1: and so I think that we do have to do 556 00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:24,399 Speaker 1: this with our siblings as adults, no matter what the 557 00:31:24,479 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: issue is. Is to really start from scratch and not 558 00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:30,079 Speaker 1: be like, well, you were always the smart one, or 559 00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:33,079 Speaker 1: you were always the favored one, or you were always 560 00:31:33,159 --> 00:31:35,639 Speaker 1: the beautiful one, or you know, whatever it might be, 561 00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:38,319 Speaker 1: and to really say who are we now that we 562 00:31:38,399 --> 00:31:40,639 Speaker 1: are adults and we are not children living in that 563 00:31:40,719 --> 00:31:41,559 Speaker 1: house anymore. 564 00:31:42,199 --> 00:31:44,199 Speaker 2: And I think any siblings who have not had a 565 00:31:44,199 --> 00:31:48,079 Speaker 2: close relationship as adults can do that. Get to know 566 00:31:48,159 --> 00:31:50,519 Speaker 2: one another as if you were strangers, and you'll be 567 00:31:50,639 --> 00:31:55,039 Speaker 2: really surprised to learn who that sibling is now and 568 00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:57,359 Speaker 2: for them to get to know who you are now. 569 00:31:57,439 --> 00:32:00,239 Speaker 2: And it's a great way to think about how to 570 00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:04,119 Speaker 2: connect with siblings or any family members with whom you 571 00:32:04,159 --> 00:32:05,399 Speaker 2: haven't been closed and adulted. 572 00:32:05,879 --> 00:32:08,919 Speaker 1: And I think that starts with curiosity, being really curious 573 00:32:08,919 --> 00:32:12,079 Speaker 1: about the other person, and not just in this simplic situation, 574 00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:14,879 Speaker 1: but I think in any situation where we're talking about 575 00:32:14,919 --> 00:32:20,999 Speaker 1: improving communication, it has to start with curiosity. You're listening 576 00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:23,879 Speaker 1: to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back 577 00:32:23,919 --> 00:32:39,199 Speaker 1: after a short break, so I'm thinking about the last 578 00:32:39,199 --> 00:32:41,319 Speaker 1: person we're going to catch up with today, and that 579 00:32:41,559 --> 00:32:45,479 Speaker 1: is Amy. And Amy came to us because she was 580 00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:48,799 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with the fact that her boyfriend that she was 581 00:32:48,879 --> 00:32:53,119 Speaker 1: very serious with was still taking care of his ex 582 00:32:53,199 --> 00:32:56,239 Speaker 1: girlfriend's dog, and I think the dog was actually living 583 00:32:56,279 --> 00:33:00,119 Speaker 1: with him at times, and the boundaries just seemed very 584 00:33:00,159 --> 00:33:03,759 Speaker 1: blurred to her, and she did not know how to 585 00:33:04,119 --> 00:33:08,759 Speaker 1: communicate effectively with him around this. So let's get a 586 00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:12,399 Speaker 1: reminder of what was going on. I said, you know, 587 00:33:12,479 --> 00:33:15,679 Speaker 1: it's really funny. I have never met this person, but 588 00:33:15,719 --> 00:33:18,479 Speaker 1: I hate her already because she is in the middle 589 00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:19,959 Speaker 1: of our relationship. 590 00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 2: You are very clear with him that the dog bothers you, 591 00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:27,519 Speaker 2: but you also say that you don't want to tell 592 00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:30,359 Speaker 2: him what to do about the friendship quote unquote correct 593 00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:32,839 Speaker 2: with this X if you feel comfortable saying to him, 594 00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:35,639 Speaker 2: this dog shouldn't be here, why don't you feel comfortable 595 00:33:35,639 --> 00:33:38,519 Speaker 2: saying and you're friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing 596 00:33:38,879 --> 00:33:42,199 Speaker 2: and sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in 597 00:33:42,199 --> 00:33:42,919 Speaker 2: the picture either. 598 00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:46,079 Speaker 3: I guess you doubt yourself. I think, Okay, does this. 599 00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:48,599 Speaker 5: Dog represent the woman? Is this dog a connection? 600 00:33:48,919 --> 00:33:53,919 Speaker 3: Or am I just totally over analyzing the situation. Can 601 00:33:53,959 --> 00:33:55,319 Speaker 3: he have a friendship with this person? 602 00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:57,079 Speaker 10: I mean, he has mentioned that he's known for twenty 603 00:33:57,079 --> 00:34:00,159 Speaker 10: something years, but I said, this is not a friend. 604 00:34:00,759 --> 00:34:03,639 Speaker 10: I said, I don't have sex with my friends. 605 00:34:06,479 --> 00:34:09,559 Speaker 2: You know, Laurie, Amy had reason to be concerned about 606 00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: his ex because she had a history of sabotaging his relationships, 607 00:34:13,959 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 2: including his marriage, so there was all kinds of reasons 608 00:34:17,279 --> 00:34:20,519 Speaker 2: for concern there. Let's hear where Amy is today and 609 00:34:20,759 --> 00:34:22,119 Speaker 2: the dog and the boyfriend. 610 00:34:23,399 --> 00:34:25,079 Speaker 3: Hi, Laurien Guy. This is Amy. 611 00:34:25,839 --> 00:34:29,519 Speaker 10: I am happy to report that my boyfriend and I 612 00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:33,519 Speaker 10: are still together and the dog has not reappeared, and 613 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 10: neither has the ex girlfriend. Something that I have learned 614 00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 10: and reflected on a lot, though, is I don't know 615 00:34:41,399 --> 00:34:44,039 Speaker 10: that the dog incident was isolated. And what I mean 616 00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 10: by that is, I think it's tied to bigger issues. 617 00:34:47,439 --> 00:34:49,439 Speaker 10: I know we spoke about boundaries, so it's tied to 618 00:34:49,439 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 10: the bigger issues of boundaries and also guilt. I know 619 00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:56,599 Speaker 10: he suffers from just an incredible amount of guilt from 620 00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:00,079 Speaker 10: his divorce and not being able to spend time with 621 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:03,679 Speaker 10: his kids. So I think the dog not only for 622 00:35:03,759 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 10: him did it mean a failed relationship guilt again, but 623 00:35:08,319 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 10: giving it back was also for him. He felt guilty 624 00:35:11,439 --> 00:35:13,079 Speaker 10: because he wasn't sure it was going to be well 625 00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 10: taken care of. 626 00:35:14,599 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 6: Well. 627 00:35:14,799 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: I think Amy's right that it's never just about the dog, 628 00:35:17,919 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 1: And I remember that her boyfriend had so much guilt 629 00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:27,999 Speaker 1: that he was holding about having disappointed his wife and 630 00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:31,679 Speaker 1: leaving the marriage, and then the question of what was 631 00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:33,679 Speaker 1: going to happen to his kids and how were they 632 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,079 Speaker 1: going to be affected by the divorce, and then how 633 00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:41,119 Speaker 1: was his ex girlfriend going to feel they also had 634 00:35:41,279 --> 00:35:44,679 Speaker 1: an on again, off again relationship that kept reappearing, but 635 00:35:44,679 --> 00:35:47,559 Speaker 1: they were also friends for a very long time, and 636 00:35:47,839 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: he was going to disappoint her. So I think there 637 00:35:50,759 --> 00:35:52,999 Speaker 1: were so many things going on for him in addition 638 00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: to the bigger issue of really cutting ties with that 639 00:35:57,759 --> 00:35:59,679 Speaker 1: part of his life and being able to move on 640 00:35:59,799 --> 00:36:01,999 Speaker 1: to a healthy relationship with Amy. 641 00:36:03,319 --> 00:36:06,039 Speaker 2: And I think what we usually see in our office 642 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:10,999 Speaker 2: is that when somebody has murky boundaries in one area, 643 00:36:11,359 --> 00:36:15,119 Speaker 2: for example, who's taking care of the dog, we will 644 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 2: find those milky boundaries in another area. People tend to 645 00:36:18,879 --> 00:36:22,519 Speaker 2: either like clarity or avoid creating it. And if he's 646 00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:25,079 Speaker 2: the kind of person that really finds it hard to 647 00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:28,039 Speaker 2: set clear boundaries and expectations in his own head let 648 00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:31,679 Speaker 2: alone for others, that's probably something that goes on in 649 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,599 Speaker 2: all kinds of different areas of his life. 650 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: And I think it's very hopeful that when they had 651 00:36:36,879 --> 00:36:40,159 Speaker 1: a direct conversation about this, that he really stepped up 652 00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:42,679 Speaker 1: and set those boundaries that he was saying to her, 653 00:36:43,039 --> 00:36:46,039 Speaker 1: you were important to me, I value you, and I 654 00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: know that I need to do this for our relationship 655 00:36:48,359 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: to succeed. And I think that sent her a very 656 00:36:51,759 --> 00:36:54,959 Speaker 1: strong message of support, so let's hear what else happened. 657 00:36:55,919 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 10: I think the biggest hurdle we have is when they 658 00:36:58,879 --> 00:37:03,599 Speaker 10: got divorced while it was amicable, because he felt so guilty, 659 00:37:04,119 --> 00:37:07,559 Speaker 10: he assumed ninety nine point nine percent of all the 660 00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:09,079 Speaker 10: financial responsibilities. 661 00:37:09,879 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 3: His ex wife doesn't work. 662 00:37:11,279 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 10: She still has a credit card with him, which is 663 00:37:15,399 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 10: supposed to be exclusively for groceries things for the kids, but. 664 00:37:22,359 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 3: It's just really murky. 665 00:37:23,959 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 10: I mean, they are legally divorced, but he still pays 666 00:37:26,439 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 10: for everything. So that's a really big challenge for us 667 00:37:30,839 --> 00:37:34,479 Speaker 10: right now because we're communicating very openly about it. How 668 00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 10: if it's not fixed, we can't move forward. He's slow 669 00:37:37,479 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 10: to act, and I know why. I know he doesn't 670 00:37:40,479 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 10: like conflict, so he feels like by engaging in this negotiation, 671 00:37:45,919 --> 00:37:52,159 Speaker 10: the ex wife might prevent him from seeing his kids 672 00:37:52,159 --> 00:37:54,439 Speaker 10: as often as he liked because they co parent, and 673 00:37:55,119 --> 00:38:00,119 Speaker 10: might even request poll custody. So that's the big hurdle 674 00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:03,159 Speaker 10: that we're facing now. And I reflect a lot on 675 00:38:03,319 --> 00:38:05,519 Speaker 10: what you said, Laurie during our last call, which was 676 00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:08,479 Speaker 10: make sure you don't wait too long, So thank you 677 00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 10: again for listening. 678 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's great that she got the message 679 00:38:14,359 --> 00:38:17,079 Speaker 1: that she shouldn't wait too long to have these conversations 680 00:38:17,159 --> 00:38:21,919 Speaker 1: because she talked about how he avoids conflict, and I 681 00:38:21,919 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: think that when you're in a relationship with someone who 682 00:38:23,839 --> 00:38:27,079 Speaker 1: avoids conflict, it's really important that you don't become complicit 683 00:38:27,119 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: in that. That you then don't say, well, I'm just 684 00:38:29,279 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: not going to bring it up because I know that 685 00:38:31,319 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: it makes the other person uncomfortable for me to bring 686 00:38:33,839 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: it up. And I think that that worked very well 687 00:38:37,399 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 1: with setting some clear boundaries around the other woman with 688 00:38:41,519 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: the dog, who he had trouble not having sex with 689 00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: whenever she would come around. And while there were times 690 00:38:48,319 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: where he could hold that boundary, there were times when 691 00:38:50,279 --> 00:38:52,559 Speaker 1: he couldn't. So that was a very clear cut situation 692 00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:55,679 Speaker 1: where she knew what she needed, he knew if he 693 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,999 Speaker 1: wanted to have this relationship with Amy, and that seemed 694 00:38:58,999 --> 00:39:01,199 Speaker 1: to work out well so far. I think here it's 695 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: a little more complicated because not only is he conflict avoidant, 696 00:39:04,759 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 1: but there's a real consequence to bringing this up with 697 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,639 Speaker 1: his ex ys, which is that it might affect how 698 00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:16,479 Speaker 1: she handles the custody situation around the kids. And so 699 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,639 Speaker 1: I think that it's important for them to really talk 700 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: about money in their relationship and how money is going 701 00:39:22,879 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 1: to be handled between them and also with his kids 702 00:39:25,919 --> 00:39:28,639 Speaker 1: and his ex wife. But I think she also has 703 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,999 Speaker 1: to understand that there's a consequence out there for him 704 00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: that he kind of has to dance around a little 705 00:39:35,319 --> 00:39:37,399 Speaker 1: bit differently. So it doesn't mean don't set the boundary. 706 00:39:37,439 --> 00:39:39,639 Speaker 1: It means they're really going to have to work together 707 00:39:39,959 --> 00:39:42,079 Speaker 1: to come up with something that works for both of 708 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:43,199 Speaker 1: them in this relationship. 709 00:39:45,079 --> 00:39:47,599 Speaker 2: And here again, as we've seen in the other updates, 710 00:39:47,679 --> 00:39:53,079 Speaker 2: communication is absolutely key because Amy has a need to 711 00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:57,959 Speaker 2: have clarity about what are the parameters of our relationship 712 00:39:57,999 --> 00:40:00,999 Speaker 2: hers and her boyfriends, and that is related to the 713 00:40:00,999 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 2: parameters of his relationship with his ex wife, his parenting, 714 00:40:04,839 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 2: all those things. And I'm really glad to hear that 715 00:40:07,799 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 2: Amy is still as she will when we spoke to her, 716 00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:14,959 Speaker 2: really clear about being able to voice what her needs 717 00:40:14,959 --> 00:40:18,599 Speaker 2: and feelings are and getting her boyfriend, who is much 718 00:40:18,679 --> 00:40:22,559 Speaker 2: less prone to clarity, to become more and more clear 719 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,999 Speaker 2: about his needs and feelings and what she can expect. 720 00:40:27,119 --> 00:40:29,959 Speaker 1: And I think that when two people start communicating, it's 721 00:40:29,999 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: beneficial to both people. So it's not like they started 722 00:40:33,359 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: communicating and Amy got things in the relationship that benefit her, 723 00:40:37,679 --> 00:40:40,479 Speaker 1: But it also benefits him to be in a healthier 724 00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 1: relationship with Amy, and in this case, to really examine 725 00:40:44,399 --> 00:40:48,679 Speaker 1: his guilt and his avoidance and his blurry boundaries that 726 00:40:48,839 --> 00:40:52,079 Speaker 1: maybe have tripped him up in relationships before so that 727 00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: he can. 728 00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:54,679 Speaker 5: Have a healthier path moving forward. 729 00:40:54,999 --> 00:40:57,639 Speaker 1: So he's got to really differentiate here, what are some 730 00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:00,679 Speaker 1: boundaries I can set around money with my ex and 731 00:41:00,799 --> 00:41:03,519 Speaker 1: what are some things where it's really the guilt talking 732 00:41:03,759 --> 00:41:07,439 Speaker 1: and not about some negative consequences that might happen. And 733 00:41:07,479 --> 00:41:09,639 Speaker 1: I think that what we've seen with all of the 734 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: updates that we've gotten this week is that communication might 735 00:41:12,839 --> 00:41:16,119 Speaker 1: not solve the problem immediately, but it gets people on 736 00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:18,679 Speaker 1: a path so that they can start to get to 737 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: a place where they will be able to move forward 738 00:41:21,999 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: and negotiate their relationships in a much smoother way. 739 00:41:26,519 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 2: And I think the other thing that we've seen is 740 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,519 Speaker 2: that when one person in a family, or in a couple, 741 00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 2: or in any kind of relationship starts to communicate more 742 00:41:35,359 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 2: clearly and more openly, it forces in a way, the 743 00:41:39,319 --> 00:41:42,439 Speaker 2: other person to match that or to come toward it. 744 00:41:42,759 --> 00:41:45,599 Speaker 2: And so that can really have a ripple effect. I'm 745 00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:48,999 Speaker 2: sure Amy's X is learning a lot about communication from 746 00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 2: being with Amy, and I'm sure that the family members 747 00:41:53,679 --> 00:41:55,999 Speaker 2: and partners of all our guests that we covered this 748 00:41:56,079 --> 00:42:00,119 Speaker 2: week have learned from them as well. And so I 749 00:42:00,279 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 2: just want to urge our listeners. If you are in 750 00:42:02,319 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 2: a situation that you feel is murky, clarify what your 751 00:42:07,319 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings are and then beak up and communicate 752 00:42:10,879 --> 00:42:12,559 Speaker 2: openly with the other person. 753 00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:14,839 Speaker 5: Because it always feels like a relief. 754 00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:21,679 Speaker 1: So next week we'll be back with our regular sessions 755 00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 1: and we'll be talking with a woman who has a 756 00:42:24,959 --> 00:42:29,639 Speaker 1: history of addictions that she is now in recovery for, 757 00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:33,679 Speaker 1: but she has recently developed a new addiction, and that 758 00:42:33,839 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: is to shopping. 759 00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 7: I didn't realize that that's what was happening until I 760 00:42:39,479 --> 00:42:41,079 Speaker 7: was six thousand dollars in debt. 761 00:42:41,479 --> 00:42:43,599 Speaker 5: I think that's what makes me feel vulnerable. Is to 762 00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:44,959 Speaker 5: say this a loud. 763 00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:48,599 Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week, 764 00:42:48,839 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't 765 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by 766 00:42:54,879 --> 00:42:57,079 Speaker 1: telling your friends about it. And leaving a review on 767 00:42:57,119 --> 00:43:00,599 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show. 768 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:03,399 Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, 769 00:43:03,439 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 2: big or smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia 770 00:43:07,959 --> 00:43:08,559 Speaker 2: dot com. 771 00:43:08,839 --> 00:43:11,999 Speaker 1: Our EXECUS dative producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and 772 00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:16,119 Speaker 1: edited by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our 773 00:43:16,199 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: interns are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to 774 00:43:19,799 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: Alison Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. 775 00:43:24,479 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session. 776 00:43:26,959 --> 00:43:29,919 Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.