WEBVTT - One on One: Stephen Mailer 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.040 I am all in. 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:20.640 I am all in with Scott Patterson, an iHeartRadio podcast. 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:23.439 Hey everybody, Scott Patterson, I am all in Podcasts. We 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:27.000 have a very very very special guest. Norman Mailer's son Steven, 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:33.400 played the interviewer A Norman Baylor for one episode in 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.960 two thousand and four, and that was Norman Mailer I'm Pregnant, 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.640 Season five, episode six. Even is a stage actor and 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.440 a screen actor. His credits include appearances in films like 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:49.639 Cry Baby, Baby, Mama and Another Woman, in the television 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:53.080 shows Gilmore Girls, Law and Order, Special Victims Unit, and 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:58.800 A League of their Own. And he is the son 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:03.560 to a very extraordinary uh and iconic literary figure in 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.679 the history of American letters, the one and only Norman Mailer. 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.840 And here is his son, Stephen Mayler. Hello, Stephen, thank 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:16.640 you for joining us. Do you remember, Stephen, how it 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:20.160 came to be that your father agreed to be on 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:20.720 this show? 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.040 Yeah, very well. A dear friend of mine, Jessica Queller, 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.479 was a writer on the show, and they just wrote 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.080 an episode. I believe that where you know, the character 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:37.280 of Norman Mailer was in the in the restaurant owned 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.800 by Lauren Graham and that most McCarthy was the was 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.360 the chef, I believe. And and so she called me 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.920 and said, hey, your dad is a character in an episode. 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:50.360 Do you you know, would he be interested in doing it? 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:52.360 So I asked him, and he said, well, I'll do 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:54.280 it if if, if they put you in it too. 0:01:55.040 --> 0:02:02.320 And so that's how it all began. I'm an actor, and. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.080 So it didn't take that much convention, not at all. 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.960 It was great. He was he was all in. 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.640 Because I you know, he's known to have hated television. 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:12.960 Is that true? 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.880 You know, I guess he. I guess he was opposed 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.720 to what television could kind of do to the mind, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.000 can kind of dull the mind, and you know, like 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.600 any I mean, television is very addictive. I think it 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.360 was more of the the not necessarily the content, but 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:33.359 the action of just losing oneself television. And I don't 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:35.399 know what you would think now in the age of streaming. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:41.760 Oh yes, but he watched, you know, he like near 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:43.360 the end of his life, he loved to watch a 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:48.560 live poker and he watched love watching football. Baseball not 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:53.440 so much. After the Dodgers left Brooklyn, he denounced baseball. Yeah, 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.560 but I think that's bad. Little basketball and you know, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.000 political debates things like that. 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.960 Right, right, So what do you remember about being on set? 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.320 I I had the best time. I you know, it 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:09.800 was wonderful to be there with Jess and I'm glad 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.280 that it worked out, you know, for her as well. 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:17.440 And and it was lovely. It was you know, it 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.160 was a wonderful week that I was with my dad 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:25.239 and and everyone was was terrific. We had I remember 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.480 having dinner with the producers I think Amy and Dan. Yeah, 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.960 and so that was really fun and and the cast 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:37.560 and crew was fantastic. And I remember Meliss McCarthy going 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.280 up to me and saying, see, are you an actor? 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:41.200 I was like yeah. He was like, oh god, because 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:45.240 you're making it look too easy. Anybody can do this right, 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:45.920 right right? 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.600 Well, so so what what what do you remember about 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:57.520 your interactions with the two of those monolists of acting, 0:03:57.600 --> 0:03:58.520 Melissa and Lauren. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:02.240 Yeah, they were delightful. They were just really charming and 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.960 sweet and supportive and very respectful of my father. And 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.200 I remember the director of the episode. You know, I 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:12.560 loved my dad's work, and so it was it, Yeah, 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.000 it was it was just a lovely experience all around. 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:20.440 You know, you're so inside baseball because you're his son, 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:27.200 you know, you know, and my my father was one 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.400 of those guys who, after World War Two on the 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:36.000 gi bill, uh you know, graduating from one of the ivys, 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.680 wanted to write the great American novel. And he was 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.600 inspired by The Naked and the Dead and those legions 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:48.240 of men and women that attempted to do this. And 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:53.520 how large a figure, how large and how iconic a 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.120 figure your dad was, even at that time when I 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:00.000 was a very small child, because I know the name 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.080 it in The Dead hit like you know, it hit 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.000 like a bomb. It was just it was just this 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:09.640 amazing experience. Was wasn't it the first uh uh, real 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.440 war novel, modern war novel that had that kind of 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:13.360 an impact. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.560 I believe, So, I know, the Naked and It Didn't particularly 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.440 just really touched that whole generation. That's the other it's 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.039 kind of similar to The Naked and the Dead. I 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:25.880 think Terrence Malick made a film of it. 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:30.880 So that was the thin Red Line made. 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:31.719 Yeah. 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:35.840 Yeah, And there are elements of it in Platoon as well. 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.920 I mean, I think Oliver State is very, very influenced 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:39.920 by the Naked and the Dead. 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:50.039 Yeah, I remember my dad talked about like. 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:51.640 But I mean, just such such a thrill to know 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.680 that Norman Mahler was coming to our show to be 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.919 in a scene was just it was it was hard 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.800 to wrap your mind around it, but it happened, and 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.560 there he was in the diner and it was just 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:06.480 it was an amazing day. 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:09.800 That was the last scene of the episode, right where 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.040 were like, the guys are in here, they're not ordering anything. 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:15.279 Right exactly exactly. Lunch was canceled, So I'm canceling you 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.279 was that was a great monologue from from USA, taking 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.320 your lemons away. Oh look, I'm gonna read your book 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.040 for free. I'm not even gonna pay for it. Just 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:30.640 like so Norman, he had a lot of lines to remember. 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.080 Did he did he rehearse with you? Did he have 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:35.320 him down pretty pound or? 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.080 I think I think for the most part, he and 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.440 I were just kind of improvising. I played a somebody 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.479 who was interviewing him for a magazine piece or newspaper piece, 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.240 and we you know, I asked a lot of political questions, 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:49.400 so that part was improvised. He did have some lines, 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:54.200 my dad, you know, it was a bit of a 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.880 ham as an actor. You know, he made those three 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:58.760 experimental films at the end of the sixties, and I 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:00.479 love them because they're all these old buddies and they 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:02.800 were like my aunts and uncles, and they're like home 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:07.440 movies to me. But they're they're kind of ridiculous. And 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:12.080 and so, you know, I think I think it was 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:17.280 the improv was came out, you know, far more organically 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.040 than a lot of those lines. And and but as 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.480 far as I'm remembering, I you know, I don't, I 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:24.960 don't think it was a lot to memory. I think 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.680 it was, you know, a couple of a couple of 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.280 words here, a couple of words there. But I knew 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.240 he was he really wanted to do a great job 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.280 and he was trying, you know, giving it is all. 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.880 And how how old were you? How old were you 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:37.360 back then? 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.560 I was thirty was in two thousand and four, I 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:42.200 was thirty eight. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.640 You were thirty eight years old? Okay? And he passed 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:48.320 just in two thousand and seven. 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.160 Right seven, Yeah, he was eighty one. 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:57.960 And so are fans recognizing you for this role? Gilmore? 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:58.880 Fans that they come up to you. 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.120 My niece was a huge Gilmore Girls fan. She was, 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:06.880 you know, in high school at the time when it 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.320 came out. It was just like crazy to watch her 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.320 long friends and she and her my sister Danielle kind 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.400 of you know, thought of themselves as the Gilmore Girls, 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.120 well because daniel looked very young, and so they just 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.280 sort of you know, so the show really spoke to 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:24.280 them in that way, right. 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:30.480 Right, you know, I really want to get into what 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.600 a terrific debater he was, what a terrific personality he was, 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:40.120 what a towering intellect he was, and how he came 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.360 on the Dick Caviot Show. For people who don't know 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:46.160 who Dick, the Dick Cabot was, Dick Cabot had a 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:50.960 talk show, a very popular daytime talk show, and he 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.720 would have all of the leading figures of the day. 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.840 I mean, when did Dick Cabot show. It was a 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:02.320 seventies show. It wasn't eighties or a sixties and seventies, right, okay, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.680 all right, so you know it was a different time 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.000 back then. It was it was politicians, it was it 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.800 was artists, it was individuals. When people really you know, 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:17.480 were imbued with individuality and a lot of a lot 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:22.800 of authors came on a lot of writers. And you know, 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.600 to watch that, uh, that tet tet between your father 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.840 and Gourvidale, because Gorvidale had been very critical of your father. 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.520 He was very critical of Naked and the Deady. He said, 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:39.320 it's just a John dos Passos rip off, and you know, 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:43.760 just trying to label your father as a male chauveness 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.800 pig because your father dared to make these arguments and 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.160 analyze the women's movement at the time and wrote a 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.560 very thoughtful piece about it. Because he was he was 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:58.760 also known, as you know, quite a bright light in 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:03.800 the field of journalism because he combined the sensibility and 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.280 the subjectivity and the artistry and the complexity of a 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:13.000 novelist with you know, the subjective discipline that is journalism. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:17.840 So what do you remember about those battles with gord Vidal? 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.920 And I know they were friends, but then when Gore started, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.160 you know, painting him with this sort of brush that 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:31.640 he was this sort of thick headed, egotistical male chauvinist 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.920 who was obsessed with murder and you know, violence and 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.319 this kind of thing. What do you remember about those times? 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.000 Yeah, I mean I think it was unfortunate because they 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.160 were really good friends, and then they had a falling out. 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.360 And I think my dad's whole shtick and even on 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.599 that is that he's you know, he was really politically incorrect. 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.040 So he liked to say things to sort of get 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.120 you know, a conversation started, you know what I'm saying, 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.680 And so with Gore, I don't, you know, I can't 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:05.160 really speak to you know, how that relationship necessarily went 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:06.760 south in terms of you know, I think it was just, 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.800 you know, it was a couple of really powerful egos clashing. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:16.360 Then they did have a physical altercation at a cocktail party. Yeah, 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:18.640 and that that was in the in the seventies, I believe, 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.240 because they didn't talk for a long time and they 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.040 saw each other and uh, I mean my history, I 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.720 don't want to my history might not be that accurate, 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:28.640 but I know, yeah, there was it was a little 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:33.600 something and uh, and then they didn't speak for years 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:35.600 after that. But then they ended up doing a reading 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.559 of Don Juan and Hell in a Cape cod in 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.320 a province sound or Truro, Massachusetts, and so they you know, 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.760 they made amends and so that was lovely that they 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.600 were able to come back together because they both had 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.560 great minds. And and even those shows are you know, 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.199 are really fast. I remember I saw the other night 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.439 my dad on the William F. Buckley Junior Show. That 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.480 was really intense, you know, And and uh, man, I 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.200 was just sort of he was a wild figure in 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.200 those days. And and uh, you know, and he was 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.040 drinking a lot, and you know, and I don't think 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.800 he was really doing drugs anymore and be a little pot, 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.640 but you know, he was. He was out there like 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:18.040 a lot of people were in the sixties. It was 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.760 a wild time. And he did have just such an 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:25.079 extraordinary political mind. Yes, I love to sit at the 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.679 dinner table listening to him. And he predicted everything that's happening, 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.640 you know, in America right now in terms of democracy. 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:35.199 And and my youngest brother John and a gentleman named j. 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.040 Michael Lennon, who's the authorized biographer of my dad and 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:41.760 came out with a book called A Double Life. Several 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.360 years ago. John and Mike put together a compilation of 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.280 a lot of my dad's political writings. Yeah, it's called 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:54.400 a Mysterious Country, the uh, the Grace and Fragility of 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.280 American Democracy. And this just came out, and Uh, I've 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.720 been reading and it's just very profound. And there's excerpt 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.959 from The Naked and the Dead when the General is 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:13.160 going on sort of is really talking about fascism with 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:19.120 with intrigue and and uh, you know, and positivity and 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.160 and making trying to make it sound very good. But 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.800 then there's this you know, intellectual lieutenant or captain who 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.680 you know, thinks he's full of sort of challenging him subtly, 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.440 but the General really loves that he's challenging him. That's 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.240 why he befriends him so they can have these discussions. 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.240 And there's a really cool like the sixth Tenets of 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:45.680 Democracy that that John and might kind of derived from 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.720 a lot of my dad's theories. 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.680 And real quick, which administrations did your father consider to 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.800 be totalitarian? Because he wrote about that? 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:57.160 Was it? 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:57.600 Nixon? 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:04.760 Yeah? I mean, I mean everyone, you know, I think Reagan? Right, Bush? 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:11.160 I mean, he loved Obama. He passed before Obama was elected, 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:13.880 but he was you know, saw the beginning of the 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.040 campaign and just just thought he was amazing. I'm sure 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:21.480 he would have been Sociality passed. Let's not see that happen. 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.320 A great moment in this country. 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:31.240 Right the year before Obama was elected right, Yeah, exactly, Yeah, I. 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:32.360 Have an air on my phone. I want to read 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:37.120 because it's really u it's just great. So one, exercise 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:42.000 free speech and encourage civic involvement. Involvement to build left 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:46.560 right bridges and dialogue. Three, be wary of corporate power 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:52.479 and create equity between worker rewards and corporate corporate profits. 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.880 For men the wounds of slavery, and eliminate all forms 0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:01.760 of discrimination. Five distrust flag waving patriots. Six never forget 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:05.360 the past. Just that little piece just in terms of 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.320 you know, as I said, what's happening now? I I 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.640 love that it's very succinct and beautiful and hopeful, and 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.240 I think full of love and understanding, and you know, 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.600 because he really cared, He really loved. He loved this country. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.760 He loved you know, democracy, and and loved the art 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.000 that came out of this country, loved jazz. 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.200 He ran for mayor, didn't he mayor of New York City? 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:30.840 For mayor in nineteen sixty nine? 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.840 Yeah, how'd that go? 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.760 But I don't remember. I think he debated William F. Buck. 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.840 I think he was the no. He was a Republican. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:41.960 I'm pretty sure he. 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:43.800 Was at that time, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, he 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:45.440 did not like liberals. 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.360 Yeah back in the day. Yeah yeah, But I don't know. 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.640 I don't think he became the mayor though Buckley I could, 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:55.400 but having a debate, right, and that talk show was 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.040 right before I think they ended up. They had that debate. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.440 But I mean, he wanted to in New York City 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:06.400 into the fifty first state. That was his platform. Yeah, 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.880 really yeah. But there's some cips of him, you know, 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.720 you know, going around the city and and talking to 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.000 the crowds and yeah, and there was a joke. I 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.280 think he was with Warren Baby and Warren I remember 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:23.960 there was some talk back the name of Warren Baby 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:28.160 maybe running for president and in my and he called 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:31.800 my dad to to discuss some some policies or something. 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.960 I forget what they want to discuss, but he's like, 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:36.440 all right, but I'm going to make a deal with you. 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:40.120 And Baby said what He's like, I get I get 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:47.800 to be the VP. Baby said, all right, you'll be 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:49.760 the VP. And my or my dad wanted something else, 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:55.600 but I can't remember. You wanted to be member of 0:16:55.600 --> 0:17:00.000 the cabinet. Mhm. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.639 So Norman does Gilmore girls, you guys fly back. I 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.440 guess he lived in New York. I'm assuming he lived 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:08.840 in Brooklyn. 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:10.919 Ye. At that time, he was living in Provincetown, Massachusetts, 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.320 robinst Okay, Yeah, he and my stepmother, Norris, moved there 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.159 after my brother John went to college, right, and that 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.240 nineteen ninety six, twenty years of his life. So it 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:25.720 was a big deal. And is you know, he didn't 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.760 move very well. You know, I met him in Horton, Boston, 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.680 and and you know, he had to have a wheelchair 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:34.679 through the thing, so he was really you know, he 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.159 was doing a great favorite for me. I had just 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.320 split from my ex wife and we had two small boys, 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:43.400 five and one. So I just moved into my own 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.600 apartment in Brooklyn and money was a little tight. So 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.960 this is just just help to get this this gig, 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.280 and and so that was part of it. It was 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.399 lovely just to spend time with him and he you know, 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.120 my stepmother was his six wife and he had nine children, 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:03.159 so so he really knew how to commiserate with me. 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:09.160 It was a really cool journey and and uh yeah, 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:13.000 and we and I loved just helping him and being 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:17.239 a part of that. And I remember the loveliest thing 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.439 that happened there though, was I think there was a 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.760 break in shooting and he was sitting outside and a 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.760 lot of the young writers gathered around him, and they 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.719 had a little sort of forum, you know, and and 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.119 and he just loved loved holding court, and he just 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.560 loved loved the art of writing, and and so and 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:37.919 Jessica had told her, I never I didn't see this. 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:39.920 I don't know where I was, but but jess said 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:44.199 that happened, and and and I and that he, you know, 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.800 was just so giving and and and and open, and 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:50.800 that the writers have just loved it. 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:56.560 How did he So he goes to Harvard, He graduates 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:02.040 with a with a degree in aeronautical engineeering. Yes, if 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:09.399 I am not mistaken, Yeah, okay, So one thing leads 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:14.000 to another. How does that? Where's that bridge from aeronautical 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:15.800 engineering to journalism. 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.600 Well, he had written a story when he was eight 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:23.640 years old and the teacher called my grandmother in and said, 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.280 you obviously wrote this for him. This is this is 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:31.040 a big no no. And my my grandmother was incensed, like, 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.960 I would never do something thing. You know, my boy 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:38.840 is a genius. And so I think that was the 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.960 first little like, oh you know, he's got some talent here. 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:46.040 And then he won a major short story writing contest 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:48.800 when he was at Harvard and was on the road 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:49.560 to the lampoon. 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:51.639 Oh he did, he was, he was one of he was. 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.320 Okay, yeah, so I think the writing was always there, 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:55.120 and then. 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.639 For for for people listening in if you don't know 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.400 what the Harvard Lampoon is or what I'm assuming it's 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:07.320 still still standing. A lot of the writers from the 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:11.560 Harvard Lampoon end up in Hollywood writing films and major 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:16.160 TV shows, And there's a real lineage from from Harvard 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:20.520 to to Hollywood. So yeah, so so was he ever 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.359 tempted to follow in the footsteps of so many before 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.200 him to come to Hollywood and start writing for film 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:27.560 and TV. 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:29.959 When The Naked and the Dead came out, you know, 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.960 he became instantly famous. And you know, at that time, 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:35.920 when you had the number one best seller, it was 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.440 a very big deal, and I'm sure it's a big 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:41.280 deal now. But just in terms of you know, reading, 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.200 it was before television, so reading was I think more 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.320 more of the culture of the day of that day, right. 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.320 Right, The real the real rock stars of the day 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:56.560 were writers. The intellect the intellectuals were bigger than actors. 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.680 They were bigger than musicians. They were the thing. 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:03.719 Yeah, well, jazz musicians are pretty like you know, the 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.520 Miles Davis and the Charlie Parkers like those like that scene. 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.160 The writers and you know, jazz musicians. That was it. 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.480 Yeah, it wasn't politicians, It wasn't musicians. It wasn't actors. 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:18.040 I mean, even though it was, but it was really 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:22.840 like the big writers that everybody. Everybody read them, everybody 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:23.920 discussed them. 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:28.879 Yeah, and Hemingway was my dad's hero, Steinbeck, you know, 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:33.119 all In Fitzgerald. And so he came out to Hollywood 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.359 because they you know, the film got bought, I mean, 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.320 the book got bought to be a film. And he 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:42.160 lived out here for about a year and was sort 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:43.800 of in that scening, but he didn't he really didn't 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:45.320 like it to me. To him, it felt like a 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.119 lazy summer day, you know, every day, and he just 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.760 couldn't really get any writing done. So it was a 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:52.280 brief year. 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:56.359 And then since you know, I mean, I think he 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.560 always when he was at college, he got cast in 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.439 Awakened sing Hm. 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:05.920 So he got that Barney and he learned his lines 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:11.680 and then I think, uh, the what did the war race? 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.000 Somedthing happened where the completed did not go on, so 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:16.800 he feels like that had happened. He might have been 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:20.080 an actor, but he always yeah, he always loved film 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:24.520 and and and made some like I remember some films 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.440 from like the early fifties and Brooklyn Heights, and then 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.080 ended up making these you know, sort of three kind 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:37.000 of seminal wild improvisational films that you know are part 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.800 of the Criterion collection. You know, again, a lot of people, 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:45.280 I think for friends and family, you know, it's, uh, 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.800 we we dig them, but you know, they can be 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:50.520 a lot leave a lot to be desired for others. 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.200 And then he ended up directing Tough Guys Don't Dance, 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.800 one of his novels, and we always you know, yeah, 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:01.080 so I think, you know, he I think he loved 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:05.080 great filmmaking, but was very impatient, if like, in terms 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:07.280 of like watching television with him, that was a nightmare 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:09.960 because he literally watched something for a minute and again 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:12.080 then move on. It was just like constant you know, 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:14.520 channel surfing, right right. 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:14.879 Right, So. 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:27.159 Tell us a little bit about the aftermath of of 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:32.719 when the show actually aired, was Norman approached by people, 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:36.359 Oh my god, you were on Gilmore Girls and they 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:38.920