WEBVTT - Vitalik Buterin 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:03.240 Hi everyone, I'm Emily Chang, and this is Bloomberg Studio 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.840 One Point Oh, where I speak with the biggest influencers 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:08.639 and technology and media and talk to them about their 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:12.280 vision for what's coming next. Today we are going deep 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:16.080 down the rabbit hole of the cryptocurrency slash decentralized network 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.799 still taking shape, that is Ethereum. He was born in Russia, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.800 emigrated to Canada with his parents at the age of six, 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.240 and had already mastered multiple languages, mathematics, and engineering by 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.080 the time he got to high school. At age seventeen, 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.479 his father introduced him to bitcoin. He couldn't afford to 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.120 buy it, so he wrote about it instead, and while 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.120 he found bitcoin fascinating, he felt like he had an 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:45.560 even better idea in metallic Butteran wrote the original white 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.479 paper that conceived ethereum not just a digital currency, but 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.000 an entire network built on the blockchain. It's now worth 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.680 more than three hundred billion dollars and the biggest believers 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.240 claim it will send the rest of the cryptocurrency market 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.400 into the ether. Joining me on this edition of Boomberg 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.960 Studio at One Point Oh, the inventor of Ethereum metallic Peuterin. 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:09.360 We're going to talk about Ethereum, but I want to 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.080 start first with how you got here. You were born 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.320 in Russia, you emigrated to Canada with your parents when 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.920 you were just six years old, and you started learning 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.839 about bitcoin from your father. What is it about bitcoin 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:27.000 that hooked you both? Bitcoin is really interesting because of 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:31.280 how interdiscipline are it is. I was very interested in 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:37.520 math and computer programming and cryptography and technology. I am 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:42.360 was also very interested in economics and kind of politics 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:47.080 and philosophy. And bitcoin just happens to be this interesting 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.000 fusion of all of these things, right and at the 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.760 same time, Like it's not just a piece of code 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.520 that that's there for fun. It's not even just an app, 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.440 like it's uh, something that's really intended to have a 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.960 very big and meaningful impact on how the world works um. 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.240 And so I think just having both of those aspects 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.400 together definitely made a bitcoin very interesting to both me 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.800 and my dad. As I understand it, you didn't have 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.760 enough money to mind, so you wrote about it instead, 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:19.680 and in you wrote the original white paper that became 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.919 the basis for Ethereum. What was it that sparked that 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.880 original vision? So I joined the bitcoin space in early 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.000 two thousand and eleven, and I wrote the that Ethereum 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.160 white paper at the end of two thousand and thirteen, 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.440 if that was the time when things first blew up 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:39.360 in and uh, it was clear that this was something 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.640 that's significance, right. Well, I remember going to the Bitcoin 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.919 conference in San Jose, which had about a thousands people 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.320 in it, and that was when I realized that, like, hey, 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.520 this isn't just a bunch of weirdo school only exist 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.160 on the internet, Like this is real. Elder's people trying 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.919 to actually do things. There's people building businesses, a lot 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.839 of which are actually pretty successful. What started happening then 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.919 with people started thinking, well we have bitcoin? What next? Right? 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.440 So what else can you do with the blockchains? Like 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.400 what would bitcoin two point o or cryptocurrency two point 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.800 oh look like? As I understand it, it's it wants 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.600 to be a whole new operating system like a new 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.520 Apple iOS, which with a ton of apps built on 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:26.640 top of the blockchain. And the simplest terms, what is 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.119 ethereum and how is it different from bitcoin? So bitcoin 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.679 is a blockchain that's designed for one application, right, which 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:38.640 is maintaining and letting people use bitcoin the currency, Ethereum 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:41.360 is a general purpose blockchain. So instead of being a 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.440 blockchain that's designed for one application, Ethereum is a blockchain 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:51.000 that supports a built in a programming language, and whatever 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.160 blockchain application you wants to build, you can just write 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.880 the logic of that application in the programming language, upload 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.440 that program to the chain in and this becomes what 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.360 we call a smart contract, and anyone can then interact 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.480 with your application, and the blockchain interprets the rules of 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:13.360 your application for you. So, instead of being something that's 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.360 designed to do one thing, is designed to open up 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:20.440 space for creativity to like basically let people do whatever 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.000 the thing that they want to do on top of it. 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:25.800 So is the idea then that the next Facebook or 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.600 Twitter would not be owned by Jack Dorsey or Mark Zuckerberg, 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.400 but be built on the blockchain and owned by everyone. 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.640 There are multiple projects already trying to do that, and 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.760 lots of them are based on Ethereum. So yes, So 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:46.839 then is ethereum a threat to established centralized companies and 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:50.920 social networks like Facebook, like Twitter, like Google. I think 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.839 it can be a threat, but it can also be 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.320 an opportunity, Like I think even Jack Dorsey himself, right, 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.120 he has the sub project it's called The Boys Guy, 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.040 which is trying to figure out how it Twitter can 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:10.359 and incorporate decentralized elements. And I think a lot of 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.719 these projects wants to actually do this right because I 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.640 think a lot of them are realizing that being are 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.880 kind of centralized focus of power and having control and 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.120 of so much of everyone's data and all of these things. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.880 Like it's it's not just an asset, it can also 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.240 be a liability as well. Now we still don't know 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.960 who Satoshi Nakamoto is, whether that's even a single person 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.000 or a group of people. What is it like to 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:45.160 be a known and visible figure behind such a popular technology. 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.120 I mean there's definitely times when I want to be 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:55.120 less visible um, but I guess that comes with the 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.880 with the territory. Why do you want to be less visible? 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:03.200 I mean one of the other Ethereum co founders, Anthony Delrio, 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.760 recently announced he's quitting crypto because of safety concerns. I mean, 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.159 is that part of your concern as well? I mean 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.040 it's not so much physical safety per se as just 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:16.960 like I want to take the ability to also, you know, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.919 have a life and not just have like random people 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.960 running up and saying, are you the metallic bouderin um? 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.120 I don't know, I geah. There's definitely times when I 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.960 find such things annoying, and so I don't know. I'm like, 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:36.480 I'm likely to keep wearing my mask in lots of 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.000 places in it. And that has nothing to do with COVID. 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.480 There was a lot of debate early on about what 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:47.200 Ethereum could be, would be, should be for profit, nonprofit? Nonprofit? 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.120 One out, and I know that that was really important 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.760 to you. Why did you want Ethereum to be a 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.960 nonprofit and how did you come to that decision. It 0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:59.840 was just a very importance to me that, like, this 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:05.279 is a technology that decentralized infrastructure that's meant to be 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.320 not controlled and not owns by anyone, and it's a 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:12.040 platform that's for the world. And so for that platform 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.840 to be connected to a company that had a very 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:21.880 small number of shareholders, I think is something that could 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.720 really centralize the ecosystem. And so something that I thought 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:27.960 would be very was a very unhealthy and one it's 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.120 to really avoid now. N f teas in particular have 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:35.040 really helped bring new users into the crypto tent. We 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:39.040 saw you at Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunas's kitchen table 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:44.880 Let's Ethereum, So Ethereum is a general purpose of watching. 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.800 You also were not happy about Kim Kardashian getting involved, 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.760 and I'm curious where do you draw the line when 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.560 it comes to celebrity endorsement. The thing that I was 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.160 unhappy with about Kim Kardashian was that she basically like 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:03.400 shields something like Etherium Max. That was I think, you know, 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.240 I'd call it a borderline scam. Right. It seems like 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:11.360 this project so that's basically just like at best, a 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:16.760 pure money grab that's not really providing much of value. 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.600 This is my conversation with the co founder of Ethereum, 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.200 Vitalic Buterin up next. Now that Ethereum has blown up, 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.720 how does it get past the growing pains to truly 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.559 become the world's computer And what are buterans concerns about 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:35.480 scams and cyber attacks in the crypto space. I'm Emily Chang, 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.439 this is Bloomberg Studio. At one point out stay with us. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.800 Ethereum has had some growing pains, whether it is high 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:07.480 transaction costs, traffic jams, front running. Why do these problems exist? 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.800 This is the scalability problem. Everyone's been talking about the 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.360 scalability problem for at least five years now, and and 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.880 in basically it's like a simple supply and demand problem, 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.199 right like, if the number of people who want the 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.480 cent transactions goes up, but the amount of space for 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.600 transactions on chain doesn't go up, then all of these 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.199 people who want the cent transactions are bidding against each other, 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.240 and only the ones that are willing to pay a 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.360 really high amounts can actually get in. The Only way 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:36.920 to solve this is to just improve the technology to 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.000 increase the number of transactions that the system can process. 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.640 And it's why we're doing We've been doing just all 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:46.520 kinds of incremental improvements to the blockchain clients and the 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.000 protocol and the code. Over the last five years. ETHEREM 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:54.240 scalability has increased by about a factor of five since 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.400 so the project started. And then there are some problems 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.400 that are not like just just scaling problems per se, 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:04.640 But there's still technology problems, right like, there are problems 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.280 that have to do with the facts that like, this 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:12.960 entire ecosystem has blown up and gotten big fairly quickly, 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.480 there's a lot of aspects of it where people are 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:17.360 still true to know their states, like what is the 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.400 correct way and what is the safest way to do 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.559 these things, like, for example, the state of just security 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:27.080 auditing for blocking protocols like it. It has gotten much 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.240 better since the dal hack back in right, but you know, 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:33.840 at the same time challenges continue to exist, and that's 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.000 normal in any space when you know you have I 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.319 guess that usage growing faster and then the technology catches up. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.959 Can you contrast proof of stake with proof of work? 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:46.160 Why do you think that's so much better? The reason 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.959 why blockchains need to have a proof of something, right 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:53.600 is because like these are decentralized systems. So for example, 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.199 and proof of work, like the system actually measures how 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:01.240 much computing power is being put into blook and so 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.959 in order for an attacker to take over the network, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.640 they actually have to have more computing power than the 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.760 rest of the network combines. Right, Like, so you can't 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.360 just spin up a billion virtual machions on one computer. 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.600 But the probably is that it requires a huge number 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:22.160 of computers to be constantly running seven So it works, 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.480 but it's very expensive. Proof of steak it works differently right, 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:29.439 So proof of steak works by instead using coins as 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.760 the economic resource. So if you have coins inside of 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.120 the system, then you just sign messages with those coins, 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.120 and for an attack or to take over, they have 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.240 to basically have like more coins than the rest of 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.400 the network put together. So it does the same thing, 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.120 but it avoids the need to have these computers running 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.600 seven and that's where the efficiency comes from. You're planning 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.679 major upgrades meantime, and East two point oh is well underway. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.280 What will that accomplish? What problems will it solve? So 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:58.959 I think what people call eath two point oh as 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:03.360 UH has two big parts, right, One big part is 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.280 the switch the proof of steak. So after a full 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.720 transition to proof of steak UM, there will not be 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.800 more any more mining ethereums energy a consumption will go 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:16.160 down from by like a factor of more than one thousands, 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.480 so it will go from being a big problem to 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.400 basically not a problem at all UM and the channel 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.240 become more secure, more secure, it will become more efficient. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.600 So after that, the next major milestone is what's called 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:33.440 the merge um, which is when basically the proof of 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.080 work chain it just stops running and all of the 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.400 applications on the proof of work chain get moved over 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.760 to the proof of state chain and continue running inside 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.439 of the proof stake chain from there. Now, while you're 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.960 working on all of this, Ethereum has developed an unseemly 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:53.000 reputation as a fertile ground for scams. And I wonder 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.680 how concerned you are about a crackdown like we saw 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.000 with I c o S. What are the longer term consequences. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.280 There's definitely going to be a crackdowns on things happening 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.520 on blockchains, just like there's crackdowns on things happening on 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:12.200 the Internet. I do think that the state of the industry, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.040 in the state of things is improving, But if you 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.040 just compare it to the way that the space was 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.640 like five or eight years ago, right, like remember um 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:26.120 Mount Cox just like collapsed and half a billion dollars disappeared. 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.400 Like basically, I think we still don't know where most 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.600 of it iss and like things do continue to happen 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.360 from time to time. But just like as a fraction 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.600 of the scale of the space, I do think that 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.920 it keeps getting smaller and smaller. One big consequence, of course, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.720 is that mining is moving out of China, which I 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.000 mean there's a there's definitely a silver lining there in 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.760 terms of decentralization and that you don't have as much 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.199 hash power located in one country anymore. Um. But at 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.360 the same time, you know, the mining farms there were 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.200 you know, real companies with real employees and real people. 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.840 Some a degree of regulatory action is happening, but it's 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.280 not looking like, you know, anything close to um. You know, 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.240 at the level of like say, what people feared ten 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:14.160 years ago, there's concerns about Russia being behind a spate 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:19.160 of cyber attacks and cryptocurrency being used as a tool 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:24.080 of extortion. How do you think about the intersection of 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.400 crypto and cyber warfare? To me, I think that this 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:33.720 is a temporary phase. Like I think what's happened is 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.880 that just like even like the Internet as a whole, 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.160 it grew a huge amount over the last twenty years, 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.840 and for most of that twenty years, people just did 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.160 not take security seriously. It's even the wrong thing to 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.720 be doing, to be trying to blame attackers. Ultimately, the 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:51.760 things that's at fault is the fact that there are 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:56.160 these excellent tools within cryptography and like within you know, 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:01.560 the technology behind cryptocurrency itself that allow you to be 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.760 much more secure against these kinds of things. And I 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.600 mean my personal hope is that people like at least 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.480 see like the level of attacks that are happening now 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.480 as a wake up call and that we get a 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.760 massive effort to just improve the level of security is 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:22.800 just across every industry and across the world. Because if 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:26.320 if that doesn't happen right like, then you know, it's 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:31.360 not it's not even ransomware attackers or that are going 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.640 to be a problem. Like, it's at some point, you know, 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.040 whenever the first like full scale cyber war happens, if 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.320 people are not prepared, it's something that could end up, 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.920 you know, being really being something really bad for the world. 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.720 You're listening to my conversation with Vitalic Brant, co founder 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.960 of Ethereum, coming up with flocks of new users coming 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.360 into the crypto universe, legacy companies like Facebook and Twitter 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.360 or paying attention well does butter and think about big 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:06.280 text crypto efforts including Square, Jack Dorsey and Defy. I'm 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.840 Emily Chang. This is Bloombrook Studio. At one point, Oh, 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:30.080 stay with us. Right now, it is mostly finance apps 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.000 that are built on Ethereum aside from n f t s, 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.320 And I'm wondering what is the killer app for ethereum 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.480 that could lead to widespread adoption, much like email was 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.760 for the Internet. I think there's a few candidates. UM, 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.200 so defy is obviously one of them. UM. I think 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.000 that like blockchain based financial things have always been attractive 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:55.720 because like the traditional financial system just sucks more than 0:16:55.800 --> 0:17:00.400 traditional centralized tech. Right, Like if I send to an 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:05.080 email to um, you know, someone in Guatemala, then they're 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.480 going to receive it in one second. With with finance, 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.879 you can't even say that. A lot of people in 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.399 companies even today just to use grupt the currency to 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:19.760 send money internationally outside of finance. Yeah, think one interesting 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.879 area that I where I think blockchains might go. Here. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.840 You notice some that in order to access your assets 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.800 in ethereum, he needs to have an account. We're getting 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:31.480 to the point where there's a lot of work that's 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.840 been done on making these accounts very secure, and so 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.840 instead of just being accounts that hold money like these 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.399 these turned into like fully fully blown profiles, right, and 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.320 once you have profiles and you can start doing decentralized 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.040 social media. On top of that, the social and financial 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.359 things that you that you can do with that given 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.520 working together, um is something that I think could be 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:59.720 really big. Now, whether Bitcoin, ethereum or the blockchain really 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.560 are changing the world seems to be an ongoing debate. 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.879 Is crypto the future or is it a fad? I 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.639 think it's the future that contains fads, much like the 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.520 Internet was the future in the Internet contained fads um. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.399 You know, there's definitely specific kinds of applications that do 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.480 get overhyped from time to time, like um I, c 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.399 O s back in and then there is certain kinds 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.840 of DeFi right now. But at the same time there's 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.800 other de hy projects that really are valuable. There's a 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:33.080 combination of both, right adds figuring out which is which is. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.000 Maybe it's something that's difficult to see ahead of time 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:37.960 and it's something that you know, we as an ecosystem 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.720 we're going to find out. So the crypto skeptics, many 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.080 people that you know are admired in the financial world, 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:50.160 Jamie Diamond, Warren Buffett, Are they just wrong? A lot 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.080 of them have definitely been just the wrong already, right 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:57.040 like they expected even back in twenty thirteen to fifteen, 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.919 at least some of them to see blockchains that were 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.320 currency fail and go down to zero and price just 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:08.280 not get any more interested completely. And even today they've 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:12.000 already been far more successful than any of them expected. 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.560 So I can see how people in a traditional finance 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.480 or at least some of them, can be inclines to 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.240 kind of not see the value of blockchain based finance immediately, 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.080 because there's a lot of people even in traditional banks 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.120 that see the value that blockchains provide and have been 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.320 trying to come up with things and work with them. 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.040 One of them is Jack Dorsey. Jack Dorsey recently announced 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:41.280 Square is creating a new business focused on decentralized financial 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:46.840 services based on bitcoin using bitcoin. What have you learned 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:50.440 about Jack Dorsey's plans. Does it seem like he's building 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.840 something that sounds a lot like ethereum. I'm skeptical about these, 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:01.520 uh decentralized finance on top of bitcoins projects, So basically 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:06.800 because like the difference between bitcoin and ethereum, right, this 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.919 is a is um that on ethereum, there's like native 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:15.560 functionality that allows you to essentially directly put either ether 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.119 or etherorium based assets into these smart contracts into these 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:23.400 walk boxes, when where there's then arbitrary conditions of any 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.200 kinds that can then govern how those assets get released. 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.320 Bitcoin does not have that functionality to the same extent. 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:34.280 Like Jack is basically going to have to essentially create 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.280 his own system that enforces those rules and then on 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.359 the Bitcoin alway, or the bitcoins will just have to 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.840 be owned by probably a multi sigual it controlled by 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:45.960 either Jack or just or the participants in the system. 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.000 It looks similar, but it'll end up being something with 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:52.680 a much weaker trust model, right Like, I really think that, 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.080 like this is the whole reason why Ethereum started as 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.440 an independent system in the first place. Right Like, there's 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.720 there's technical limits to your ability to a kind of 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:06.040 graft new functionality onto a system that's not powerful enough 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.920 to support that new functionality. Facebook Mark Zuckerberg is also 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:15.159 making some big moves behind the metaverse. And you know, 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.439 what do you make of them waiting into this decentralized world. 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.600 Could they replicate some of the same problems that we 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:26.320 see in Facebook and Twitter today? I think Marcus clearly 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.919 trying to figure out what the next stage after the 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:34.400 Internet is and like actually get into it and created um. 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:37.600 But you know, before the rest of the I get 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.800 the world goes in some different direction, and Facebook is 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.640 sort of you know, left in the dust and begins 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:48.120 becomes one of these kind of previous generation old world companies. UM. 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.600 So you know, we we've seen Facebook try to get 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:57.000 into the crypto space with Libra though, and I think 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.439 in you know, in the end, like Libra did end 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:06.080 up being possibly the wrong approach because like the problem 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.119 that someone like Facebook has, right is that a lot 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:12.359 of people mistrust them and so building their own platform, 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:14.760 Like I know, I know, they tried really hard to 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:19.159 create something that's a consortium with all these different industry participants, 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:22.440 but at the same like even that was not enough, right, 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.040 and there's just a huge amount of mistrust of them. 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:29.640 But with the metaverse, I guess the thing that happens 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:35.320 during the pandemic is that we've basically very quickly switched 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:39.080 from a world where the physical world was people's kind 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:43.320 of primary center of experience and the Internet was this 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.080 new add on to a world where the internet really 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.000 is a center of people's experiences. And so we basically 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:51.480 are spending most of our time in a virtual world, 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.360 And the question is just like what level of quality 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.639 does that virtual world have so ethereum in five years 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:01.840 and ten years, where is it? I mean hopefully running 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:04.800 the metaverse, but I guess we'll see how it goes. 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:06.639 You've got a lot of people out there, a lot 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.480 of people who are trying to understand cryptocurrency, who are 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.920 placing their bets. What's your prediction for Bitcoin? Does it 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:17.359 replace the dollar doesn't exist in in fifty years or 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:21.120 is it something else? And then similarly, what's your prediction 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.160 for etherory m Because a lot of investors are choosing 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:28.120 to hold both or one or the other. I think 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:32.920 replacing that olver completely is unlikely just because like there's 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:36.240 things that the dolver provides, like price stability for example, 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:39.159 that Bitcoin is I'm not going to provide, Like I 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:44.440 think even in a theoretical world where the US dollar collapses, 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:46.800 like even then, I think Bitcoin is not going to 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:50.240 be able to provide the level of stability that users 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:53.400 and businesses expects to be able to set prices in um. 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:55.840 And in that kind of world, look, we we would 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.119 need something else, like like it could be decentralized stable coins, 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.040 it could be something us but we'll see it um so. 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:05.160 But at the same time, I think curbtocurrency can still 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:09.719 have a very powerful and important role alongside existing currencies. 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:14.440 Ethereum seems to have this reputation of being a community 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:18.600 of creative engineering types who like rainbows and cats and 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:23.480 mythical creatures. I know you have some fun t shirts yourself. 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:28.200 Is that a fair depiction of the community. The community 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.440 is a diverse place, and um, you know, it has 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:34.240 many different kinds of people, and you know, you definitely has. 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:38.840 It's it's fair share of cat people and and dog 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:41.320