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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 4: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going really well. I heard that this is the

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Speaker 1: one year anniversary of when you had your shoulder replacement surgery.

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Speaker 1: He's you can't see it, but he's doing sort of

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Speaker 1: like are you flexing? Is this like a solder exercise

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Speaker 1: you do?

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Speaker 3: I'm constantly moving it. You know.

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Speaker 2: It's one of those things where I just have to

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Speaker 2: keep it going. And uh, yeah, you're exactly right. It's

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Speaker 2: been a year since I had my shoulder replaced, and

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Speaker 2: you know, this is a this is a big milestone,

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Speaker 2: because it's really at this point that I should start

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Speaker 2: to move towards getting back as much as I possibly

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Speaker 2: can to normal function, and I'm really looking forward to that.

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Speaker 1: Do you have phantom pain from what it used to

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Speaker 1: feel like when I had the kids? I had a

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Speaker 1: C section, and I still feel like every once in

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Speaker 1: a while I can feel one or both of them

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Speaker 1: kicking me. Do you get that kind of a phantom

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Speaker 1: pain in your shoulder?

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I think one of the surprising things,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I had severe arthritis in my left shoulder,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't really realize how much chronic pain I

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Speaker 2: was in until after I've had the surgery, and that

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Speaker 2: chronic pain is gone. Now there's still you know, sharper

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Speaker 2: pain when I overdo something, you know, after the repair.

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Speaker 3: But you know, sleeping is so much better, you know.

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Speaker 2: I used to wake up, and this is before I

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Speaker 2: even had gone into the doctor, but I would wake

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Speaker 2: up in the night after sleeping on my left side

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Speaker 2: and I could not move my left shoulder. I would

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Speaker 2: get up to use the bathroom and I would have

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Speaker 2: to sit there and use my other arm to swing

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Speaker 2: my left arm just to kind of get it to move. Again,

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Speaker 2: I had no idea that this was arthritis starting to

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Speaker 2: set in.

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Speaker 1: Wow, is this one of two? Or have you already

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Speaker 1: had surgery on the other shoulder and I just don't remember.

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Speaker 3: No, it's just the left shoulder.

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Speaker 2: My right shoulder is okay for now, and it really

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Speaker 2: is an improvement. I had lost so much range of

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Speaker 2: motion that I could hardly open up my armpit to

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Speaker 2: put the odorant on. That's how bad I had gotten.

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Speaker 2: It was just, I mean it was it was pitiful.

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Speaker 2: And when the surgeon opened me up, you know, he

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Speaker 2: made a comment and his pa, who was in the surgery.

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Speaker 2: Of course I was out, but he goes, how am

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Speaker 2: I supposed to turn a rectangle back into you know,

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Speaker 2: a circle again so.

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Speaker 3: It will move?

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Speaker 2: It was that bad, but you know he was able

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Speaker 2: to get it done. A great surgeon. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: very happy with where I'm at. The range of motion

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Speaker 2: is actually better than for my non operated shoulder. It's

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Speaker 2: just I'm so weak. It's taken a long time to recover,

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Speaker 2: you know, the strength and movement, but it's it's improving

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Speaker 2: every day.

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Speaker 3: It's like two steps forwards, one step back.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know about you, but there are very

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Speaker 1: few times in my life where I have celebrated the

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Speaker 1: anniversaries of surgeries. I guess technically on my girl's birthday.

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Speaker 1: But I'm really happy for you. I'm glad things have

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Speaker 1: gone so well with your shoulder. I like to see

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Speaker 1: when you scratch your back with the scratcher and you

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Speaker 1: do have that mobility. That's the proof is in the

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Speaker 1: pudding for me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know in fact that now I can do

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Speaker 3: it with my left.

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Speaker 1: Hand right, amazing, amazing, It's all worth it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, my goal is is to be able to scratch

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Speaker 2: my back without having to use a backscratcher.

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Speaker 1: Oh that would be good. Well, time to get a

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Speaker 1: little serious. I need you to switch from the surgery

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Speaker 1: to a lover's lane story. This is a very strange

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Speaker 1: case with lots of twists and turns, so I think

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Speaker 1: you're gonna really enjoy it. So let's go ahead and

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Speaker 1: set the scene. This is the case of the murders

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Speaker 1: of a young couple who were gunned down after stopping

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Speaker 1: at a lover's lane in Great Falls, Montana, in nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty six. I want to talk about the area briefly.

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Speaker 1: The weather is what's going to be interesting in this

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Speaker 1: because it is an outdoor crime scene. So we're in

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Speaker 1: great Falls. In the nineteen fifties, it was booming. It

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Speaker 1: was one of the bigger areas urban areas of Montana,

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Speaker 1: and by nineteen fifty five, great Falls was the state's

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Speaker 1: second largest city with about forty thousand people. And there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of job opportunities there, including an air

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Speaker 1: force base that was there in nineteen fifty six and

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Speaker 1: continues to draw airmen there from all over the country.

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Speaker 1: It's Malmstrom if you're from Montana, and I butchered that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Malmstrom air Force Base. So that plays a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a role here. Let me tell you

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Speaker 1: about the victims, the people that we're going to be

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Speaker 1: focusing in on. The first the male is eighteen year

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Speaker 1: old Dwayne Bogel, and he was in Great Falls because

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Speaker 1: he was stationed at the air force base and as

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Speaker 1: of January of nineteen fifty six, when all of this

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Speaker 1: starts to happen, he had been there for about nine months.

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Speaker 1: So this is a young air named Dwayne, and I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna call him Dwayne. And then he had met

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Speaker 1: a local high school junior named Patty and her last

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Speaker 1: name is Kolitski. She was from Great Falls, and she

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Speaker 1: was described as popular, pretty, strong, willed, all of the

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Speaker 1: things that many times our victims fall under. Both of

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Speaker 1: them were incredibly well liked, and as a couple, they

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Speaker 1: seem to be a really nice couple, very much in love.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like the families were very supportive. Sounds like

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Speaker 1: they were actually thinking about going on and getting married

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Speaker 1: at some point. She was probably about sixteen and as

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Speaker 1: I said, he was eighteen, so very young couple. No

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Speaker 1: problems that we know of. So the day after New

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Speaker 1: Year's Day in nineteen fifty six, Dwayne and Patti have

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Speaker 1: a date and he picks her up and they go

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Speaker 1: out to what we thought would be to go out

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Speaker 1: to dinner, and they never come back. They disappear, and

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Speaker 1: the parents did not sound the alarm because they figured

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Speaker 1: that they had finally eloped. They had been talking about it,

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Speaker 1: and they thought, okay, they took off, And of course

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Speaker 1: no cell phones and no easy access to phones, and

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Speaker 1: they just thought they took off. So that's an interesting

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Speaker 1: part of life circumstances and people reacting. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: this a lot of cases from back then when there

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Speaker 1: are no cell phones available to just text someone and

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Speaker 1: say where are you is? There were a lot of

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Speaker 1: assumptions being made, right.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking about Dwayne, and he's eighteen years old,

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Speaker 2: so he's young, but he's an airman, he's an adult.

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Speaker 2: He's stationed in Montana, probably away maybe many states away

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Speaker 2: from his own parents. So it's not his parents that

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Speaker 2: are concerned at all. They don't know. It'd be Patty's parents.

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Speaker 1: Right, yep. They're the ones who sounded the alarm. And

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Speaker 1: I wanted you to see what they looked like. They

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Speaker 1: both look very young to me. You know, she's a

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Speaker 1: junior and he looks like a young eighteen. And I

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Speaker 1: know that this is just a headshot, but he does

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Speaker 1: not seem to be the most formidable looking person as

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Speaker 1: far as when this finally happens, whether he was able

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Speaker 1: to fight back and on. They look like kids to me.

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Speaker 2: Well, and most certainly when you start talking about offender

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Speaker 2: victim interactions, you know, physical characteristics do come into play

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Speaker 2: as well as skill sets, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Patty's parents just figured they eloped. They loved him,

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Speaker 1: they loved Dwayne, they thought this would be fine. They

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Speaker 1: are not the ones who make any kind of a

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Speaker 1: discovery or call the police the next morning. So this

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Speaker 1: is January third, nineteen fifty six, around eleven thirty three

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Speaker 1: boys were walking along the Sun River and they ran

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Speaker 1: into an area which was then known as a lover's

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Speaker 1: Lane and eventually find Dwayne's body as in a side.

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Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how many stories that I have

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Speaker 1: either read about or written about where little boys out

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Speaker 1: on a hike are the ones who discover something absolutely terrible.

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Speaker 1: And that's what happened here. They found his body. And

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Speaker 1: before I tell you about the injuries, I just want

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Speaker 1: to say that this is an outdoor scene. I know

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Speaker 1: weather is important to you. So the weather report from

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Speaker 1: Great Falls to Tribune when they were found it was

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Speaker 1: a clear winter day forty degree high and it was

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Speaker 1: a twenty five to thirty degree low that night with

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Speaker 1: no snow.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I think right now what a standing out is

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Speaker 2: the locals knew this location as a lover's lane.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: So this informs me, well, this is.

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Speaker 2: A place where you know the kids would go to

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Speaker 2: make out in the car. So the offender in this

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Speaker 2: case possibly went to this location expecting to be able

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Speaker 2: to find victims. So that is a possibility in that

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Speaker 2: you do have a true stranger going and targeting a

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Speaker 2: location where he could find a victim.

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Speaker 3: Pool.

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Speaker 2: But now it's assessing, well, what actually happened. You know,

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Speaker 2: were Dwayne and Patty actually targeted by somebody they knew?

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Speaker 1: So let me tell you about the circumstances. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to show you a picture of his body and where

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Speaker 1: it was found, and then we'll talk about the injuries.

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Speaker 1: He had been found laying face down next to his car,

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Speaker 1: which was still turned on with its radio playing. The

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Speaker 1: headlights were on, and the emergency brake had been set,

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Speaker 1: and he had been shot in the back of the head,

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Speaker 1: and the killer had used Dwayne's own belt to restrain

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Speaker 1: his hands behind his back reaction.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, he was executed with the shot to the back

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Speaker 2: of the head. His hands have been bound with his

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Speaker 2: own belt. It's not like the killer used binding material

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Speaker 2: that he brought with him, And I'm just going to

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Speaker 2: use him in a generic sense when I'm referring to

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Speaker 2: the offender. The binding of the hands in all likelihood

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Speaker 2: occurred prior to the gunshot. So the killer is interacting

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Speaker 2: with Dwayne and having to keep him controlled with the binding.

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Speaker 2: The question that I would start looking at is how

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Speaker 2: long did the offender interact with Dwayne? And of course

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Speaker 2: Patty is also part of this, but right now I'm

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Speaker 2: just focusing on Dwayne. How long before did the killer

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Speaker 2: and Dwayne first interact and how long did the offender

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Speaker 2: have Dwayne bound before he was shot? Does this suggest

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Speaker 2: a possibility that the killer met up with Dwayne and

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Speaker 2: Patty at a different location and then met them here

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Speaker 2: or got into the car with them and forced them

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Speaker 2: to come out to this location.

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Speaker 1: What we know so far about what happened with Dwayne

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Speaker 1: is police do believe that the killer forced him to

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Speaker 1: his knees with his hands bound behind his back with

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Speaker 1: his own belt, and then shot him in the back

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Speaker 1: of the head execution style. I don't know if that

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Speaker 1: tells you anything, like, does this seem like somebody who's

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Speaker 1: done this before? Is this an average person can do this?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's nothing that stands out about the homicide that

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Speaker 2: would suggest for sure that you're dealing with so but

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Speaker 2: he very experienced. What I have seen though with these

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Speaker 2: execution style homicides is the inexperienced killer often shoots multiple times.

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Speaker 2: They don't have confidence that one shot is going.

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Speaker 3: To do the job.

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Speaker 1: What I want to know is what about the idea

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Speaker 1: of the car is still on, the radio is blasting,

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Speaker 1: headlights are on, the emergency break is activated. That just

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Speaker 1: seems a little risky, like somebody could hear that and

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Speaker 1: come up onto this scene. Or was he moving so

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Speaker 1: quickly because Patty's not there, Patty's gone. He's moving so

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Speaker 1: quickly to get her out of the area that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really matter to him if this stuff stays on

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Speaker 1: because they're going to be in the wind.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's so many unknowns at this point for me

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Speaker 2: to really be able to draw a conclusion. I mean,

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Speaker 2: is the car on the radio playing at that location

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Speaker 2: because Dwayne and Patty were there hanging out and then

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Speaker 2: the killer came and then eliminated the mail threat was

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Speaker 2: able to grab Patty right now. Part of what I

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Speaker 2: saw with that location, it appeared that the it looks

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Speaker 2: like a dirt road. Was there evidence of another vehicle

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Speaker 2: that the killer possibly pulled up in where their shoe

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Speaker 2: impressions showing the killer's movements, et cetera. So I can't

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Speaker 2: discern that from this photo. But you know that's part

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Speaker 2: of assessing this scene that has to be taken into

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Speaker 2: account because of Patty. You have a victim missing. This

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Speaker 2: isn't an offender who's just emerging out of the bushes

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Speaker 2: and grabbing her. Likely he drove to this location too,

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Speaker 2: or had an accomplice that you know. Once he got

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Speaker 2: into Duayne and Patty's car and forced them out to

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Speaker 2: this location, somebody else came and picked them up.

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Speaker 1: Right, let's talk a little bit about motive, just to

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Speaker 1: cross some things off. Patty's gone, so we know she

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Speaker 1: could have been a motive. We do know that the

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Speaker 1: police ruled out robbery. And here's why. Nothing that Dwayne had,

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Speaker 1: and he had kind of a lot of stuff in

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Speaker 1: the car was taken. He had a very expensive camera

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Speaker 1: that was in his car. There was a five dollars

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Speaker 1: bill that was in his wallet. There's other stuff that

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Speaker 1: could have been taken. Nothing was taken except his girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: And they do not find Patty at all that day

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Speaker 1: that day of January third, when the boys discovered at

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Speaker 1: eleven thirty in the morning, So now we're talking about

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Speaker 1: someone who kidnapped one person killed the other sometime between

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Speaker 1: they just said evening is when they said goodbye to

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Speaker 1: their parents. Let's say six or seven pm that night

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Speaker 1: of January second, and then now we're into two days

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Speaker 1: later of January fourth before they're able to locate her

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Speaker 1: and she is in fact dead. So this is two days.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of time to kind of be on

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Speaker 1: the run dealing with this right with the police.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that is it most certainly is a significant amount

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Speaker 2: of time. But the investigation into Dwayne's Thomas, you know,

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Speaker 2: that is starting the clock for the investigators and now

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Speaker 2: trying to get the victim's timeline ironed out as thoroughly

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Speaker 2: as possible is a priority. This is now going to

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Speaker 2: this town, people in the town seeing you know, if

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Speaker 2: there's witnesses that saw them, you know, did they go

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Speaker 2: to a restaurant? Did they stop by a gas station?

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Speaker 2: And start nailing that down to figure out is there

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Speaker 2: a location that the offender could have cross paths with

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Speaker 2: them before the location out here at the Lover's Lane.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so a little bit more details about what they did.

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Speaker 1: There were witnesses who said they saw Pattie and Dwayne

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Speaker 1: at a burger joint called Pete's Drive in around nine

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Speaker 1: pm that night. You know, they did what they said

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Speaker 1: they were going to go out to dinner on a date,

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Speaker 1: and that is the last time they were seen alive

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Speaker 1: by anyone except, of course, the killer. So it's assumed

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Speaker 1: that after they had burgers at Pete's that they went

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Speaker 1: ahead and went to the lover's lane. But everything from

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Speaker 1: nine o'clock or whenever until eleven thirty in the morning

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Speaker 1: the next day, when Dwayne was discovered, is a big

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Speaker 1: question mark until we make the discovery of Patty's body.

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Speaker 1: What happens with Patty is that we have that day

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Speaker 1: where they're working on Dwayne's case and they're assuming that

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Speaker 1: Patty's been kidnapped or that Patty was involved, we don't know.

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Speaker 1: The next day, after they find Dwayne's body, a county

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Speaker 1: road worker found Patty's body eight miles away from where

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Speaker 1: Dwayne was found. She had been shot in the head

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Speaker 1: just like Dwayne. She had been bound just like Dwayne,

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Speaker 1: forced on her knees just like Dwayne. And she had

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Speaker 1: also been sexually assaulted, and she had been dumped off

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Speaker 1: a steep twenty foot embankment. And I'll show you a

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Speaker 1: picture of that in a second. So now I guess

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Speaker 1: we know the motive I'm assuming, which was Patty was

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in all likelihood, any time a woman

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Speaker 2: is abducted, sexual motivation is likely the primary reason. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't at this point doesn't indicate that we are dealing

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Speaker 2: necessarily with a serial predator. Could be somebody who has

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Speaker 2: known Patty and wanted to assault her. I took the

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Speaker 2: opportunity of Dwayne and Patty, you know, being isolated, but

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Speaker 2: the lover's lane location, and then Patty obviously was pulled

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Speaker 2: into the offender's vehicle. It I'd be interested to see

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Speaker 2: the kind of the possible routes that the offender would

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Speaker 2: have taken to get to this location. I'm seeing the

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Speaker 2: photo of this location right here. It's obviously isolated from

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Speaker 2: residential areas. It appears that there's farmland nearby.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right off a road. It's almost like he opened

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Speaker 1: the door and shoved her out and she had already

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Speaker 1: been dead maybe right.

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Speaker 2: And so part of my assessment of this location would

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Speaker 2: be with somebody just traveling through this area on freeway

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Speaker 2: or prime marterial roads, would they find this just by happenstance,

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Speaker 2: or did they have to drive a distance on back

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Speaker 2: roads to get to this location? If they did that

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Speaker 2: starts to suggest that, Okay, we're dealing with somebody who's

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Speaker 2: got local knowledge and so that helps. Versus a transient

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Speaker 2: and a truck just bombing through the town and deciding

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Speaker 2: to victimize a young teenage couple.

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Speaker 1: This seems like a rural a lot of rural area.

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Speaker 1: Going eight miles from the first crime scene, seems like

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Speaker 1: he knew exactly where he wanted to go, where he

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Speaker 1: thought a good spot would be, because there has to

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Speaker 1: be other stuff in between. Where Dwayne was on Lover's

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Speaker 1: Lane versus where Patty is found just seems pretty specific.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what do you think, Well, it is you know,

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Speaker 2: and the location Lover's Lane is also critical. It does

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Speaker 2: indicate that somebody who has local knowledge. There's the Lover's Lane.

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Speaker 2: That's where there's going to be a victim pool. You're

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Speaker 2: going to have young kid wrapped up with each other.

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Speaker 2: So now you can easily get the drop on these

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Speaker 2: kids who are distracted with each other. Also, now we

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Speaker 2: have eight miles that the offender would have had to driven,

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Speaker 2: but we don't know at this point. Did he assault

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Speaker 2: her at some location and then go straight to where

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Speaker 2: her body was dumped, or does he spend time with her,

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Speaker 2: take her back. I mean there are offenders that will

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Speaker 2: take victims back to their own residents and then kill them,

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Speaker 2: you know. So this is where it's now teasing out. Okay,

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Speaker 2: what actually happened between Patty being abducted from the Lover's

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Speaker 2: Lane and her body being thrown down this fairly steep

355
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Speaker 2: embankment in a rural area.

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Speaker 1: So the weapon that he used, in case you were curious,

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Speaker 1: was a forty five, And they did not find at

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Speaker 1: Lover's Lane where Dwayne was shot. They did not find

359
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Speaker 1: any bullets or cartridges. There was only one bullet. It

360
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Speaker 1: was just one shot, so we obviously picked up the cartridge. Again,

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Speaker 1: does this point to someone who had either done this

362
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Speaker 1: before or really thought this through? Very well? This seems organized,

363
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Speaker 1: very organized to me.

364
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Speaker 2: Well, if he's what we call policing his own brass,

365
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Speaker 2: he's picking up the cartridge case in order to prevent

366
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Speaker 2: it being used as evidence against him, that is showing

367
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Speaker 2: a level of sophistication. He's understanding how law enforcement could

368
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Speaker 2: link that cartridge case back to his firearm. He said

369
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Speaker 2: they didn't find a bullet in Dwayne's case, even at autopsy,

370
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Speaker 2: they didn't recover the bullet.

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Speaker 1: Well, it just says that they were unable to find

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Speaker 1: any bullets or cartridges. So I guess if he were

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Speaker 1: shot in the back of the head, would it have

374
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Speaker 1: been like a through and through I mean, would it

375
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Speaker 1: have obviously lodged in his head?

376
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Speaker 2: Well, either could have happened. Now with forty five chances

377
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Speaker 2: are My guess is is it's a full metal jacket bullet.

378
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Speaker 2: It's completely enshrouded with that brass casing, and these bullets

379
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Speaker 2: do have a tendency to overpenetrate. So if Dwayne is

380
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Speaker 2: on his knees and the offenders behind him and shoots,

381
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Speaker 2: it's possible that bullet exits out Dwayne's face or forehead

382
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Speaker 2: or some part of the front of his upper body

383
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Speaker 2: and possibly still has enough energy to where it goes into.

384
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Speaker 3: What I call never never land.

385
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Speaker 2: You know, when you're out in an outdoor location like this,

386
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Speaker 2: and if that bullet flies an additional you know, seventy

387
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Speaker 2: five yards into the bushes, it becomes very very hard

388
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Speaker 2: to locate.

389
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Speaker 1: Police are trying to put together kind of a profile

390
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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six of who this person was. They

391
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Speaker 1: feel like there aren't many signs of a struggle, either

392
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Speaker 1: in the car or on Dwayne. There doesn't seem to

393
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Speaker 1: be any evidence of bruising or defensive wounds. They're assuming

394
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Speaker 1: maybe that they knew whoever the killer was, and that's

395
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Speaker 1: the reason why there's no struggle. That seems a little

396
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Speaker 1: odd two young people. If you're experienced and strong and big,

397
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Speaker 1: you can probably contain two young people with not a

398
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Speaker 1: lot of difficulty, especially if you a gunpointed at him.

399
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Speaker 2: Well, and you know a possible scenario. Let's say Dwayne

400
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Speaker 2: and Patty are engaged in conversation or other activities inside

401
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 2: that vehicle and the offender approaches and he's got a

402
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Speaker 2: forty five pointed at them while they're still in the car.

403
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Speaker 2: This offender could be telling Patty tie Dwayne up, you know.

404
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 2: Dwyane removes his own belt and Patty ties him up,

405
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Speaker 2: and now the mail is under control at gunpoint, and

406
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 2: the offender has Dwayne get out of the vehicle and

407
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Speaker 2: executes him. Patty at this moment realizes her life is

408
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Speaker 2: in danger, so the offender has to move quick in

409
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Speaker 2: order to contain her. The firearm is the ultimate control.

410
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Speaker 2: Even as terrified as she would be seeing Dwayne being killed, realizing, uh, oh,

411
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Speaker 2: you know, I'm in trouble now.

412
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Speaker 3: This is a serious situation.

413
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Speaker 2: The thought of running while the offender is on that

414
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Speaker 2: side of the car, killing Dwayne. As soon as he

415
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Speaker 2: engages her with that firearm, you could see where she

416
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: is a what sixteen Yeah, she's probably just going to

417
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Speaker 2: fall in line with whatever that offender tells her to

418
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Speaker 2: do under gunpoint.

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Speaker 1: Right. So moving forward, a couple of things happen. One

420
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Speaker 1: is they determine and we need to talk about how

421
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Speaker 1: they determine these things. They determine that Dwyane probably died

422
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Speaker 1: around ten PM, maybe about an hour after they finished

423
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Speaker 1: up eating at Pete's. They think that Patty died anywhere

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Speaker 1: between four and six hours later. In fifty six. Probably

425
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Speaker 1: the way they determined things could be liver temperature, could

426
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Speaker 1: be stomach contents, or could be rigor. Is rigor useless

427
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Speaker 1: when it is literally twenty five degrees at night and

428
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Speaker 1: the body's been out there for two days.

429
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the temperatures are going to delay the onset of rigor.

430
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: The temperatures are going to cause the liver temperature to

431
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: drop quicker. So this is part of the variables that

432
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Speaker 2: make using such tools to determine the time of death

433
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Speaker 2: for either of these victims whose bodies are outside the

434
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Speaker 2: stomach contents is a little bit more interesting to me

435
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: because they went out to dinner together. They're eating at

436
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 2: the same time, and so that's where the pathologists possibly

437
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: is seeing that their last meals. Dwayne's was much less

438
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: digested and Patty's had digested more to a point to where, Okay,

439
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: she was kept alive for a period of time.

440
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's still clear. We know, regardless

441
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: of whether they're accurate or not, that he was with

442
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: Patty longer. He drove her, and it would just make

443
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: sense considering what his motive was. They go through and

444
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: interview everyone under the sun. It's not helpful that Great

445
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: Falls has forty thousand people. This is where a small

446
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: town would have been helpful. They interview everybody. They interview

447
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: family and friends, They interview people at his Air Force base.

448
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: Of course, everybody loved them. There were no enemies. There

449
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 1: was some rumor that Dwayne and a fellow airmen got

450
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: into a fight over a woman. It doesn't sound like

451
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: it was Patty, but the guy was cleared. There are

452
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: lots of things. There's a car that's found that turns

453
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: out to have nothing to do with the case. There

454
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: are a lot of red herrings, slash dead ends. They're surprised.

455
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: The police are surprised that there aren't witnesses because Lovers

456
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: Lane apparently draws quite a few lovers at night on

457
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: the weekends, and no one was there. There are just

458
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: no witnesses. Maybe it's because it was January tewod and

459
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: it was freezing, But they are really hitting a lot

460
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: of dead ends, and over the years they have as

461
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: many as thirty five suspects. Listen to these suspects, though,

462
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: among them was Whitey Bulger, James Whitey Bulger, who I'm

463
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: sure you're familiar with, the infamous Boston mobster. He was

464
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: in Great Balls in the nineteen fifties. That seems like

465
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: a little bit of a stretch. They also looked at

466
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 1: a serial killer named Edward Wayne Edwards, who had been

467
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: linked to at least five murderers, two of them involving

468
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: cars parked at lovers Lanes in Wisconsin and Ohio. I

469
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: guess you have to look at these people if they're

470
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: anywhere in the vicinity. Is that right?

471
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: Absolutely must look at them.

472
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: Now, I will tell you having worked many of these

473
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 2: older cases in which notorious offenders such as Ted Bundy,

474
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: Henry le Lucas and Otis Tool, Tommy lind Sells. I mean,

475
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 2: they're all linked to the Bay Area mild jurisdiction, and

476
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 2: their names pop up in the case files as do

477
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: you know your registered sex offenders, So notorious ones, they're

478
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: always looked at if there's a sexual assault.

479
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 3: This is par four course, and especially.

480
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: When you don't have a true lead early on and

481
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: now you're casting a wide net and all of these

482
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: other people, the notorious people start to fall into that net.

483
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: So I'm not surprised by that at all. You know,

484
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: part of looking at what happened to Dwyane and trying

485
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: to assess the offender's motive. If this was a revenge

486
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: crime because of a prior interaction with Dwayne, I would

487
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 2: have expected the offender to spend more time with him.

488
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 2: You'd have more injury, such as being punched in the

489
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: face something, instead of just a straight execution.

490
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: Dwayne was eliminated.

491
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 2: He's eliminated because the offender, he's the biggest threat, and

492
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: the offender was focused on Patty and Patty is being

493
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: sexually assaulted at some point after being abducted by the

494
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: offender based on what you told me, So this is

495
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: a sexually motivated crime. Now it comes into is this

496
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: a stranger or is this somebody that the victims knew

497
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 2: or interacted with at some point prior?

498
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: Do we agree this is likely a local?

499
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 3: It absolutely is?

500
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, what do we think about age of this person?

501
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: So you're dealing with a sixteen seventeen year old girl

502
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: a eighteen year old strong young man, both in the

503
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: car caught off guard. Are we thinking this could be

504
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: someone their age or is this someone older?

505
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: A male their age is physically capable of committing this crime. However,

506
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: I would lean towards that you are dealing with an

507
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 2: offender that has likely more life experience, is understanding that

508
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: he would be able to control to essentially adults with

509
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: the use of the firearm in order to accomplish what

510
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: he wants and to isolate Patty so he can sexually

511
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: assault her. So I would lean that you are dealing

512
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: with somebody minimally, you know, mid twenties, if not older.

513
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: I couldn't eliminate somebody younger committing this crime either, And

514
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: right now I'm making an assumption that there's a single offender.

515
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: Would you assume that he has done some thing before

516
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: this or would do something after this based on the circumstances.

517
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: Is this a career criminal kind of person or could

518
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: it be a one off? Is a bad phrase, but

519
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 1: could this be an isolated incident in this person's life?

520
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: Yes, it could, okay, as these types of cases are

521
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: being solved, cases in which the circumstances, when I would

522
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: assess them before they were solved, I would say, this

523
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: is a predator, and this is somebody who is likely

524
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: serial either has committed crimes prior or after. But we're

525
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: finding out that that's not the case. Seeing a lot

526
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: of these one off offenders. They are possibly fantasy motivated,

527
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: there of course sexually motivated and commit these types of crimes,

528
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: but then they don't defend again. And it's a really

529
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: interesting category of this type of offender and that to

530
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: this day hasn't been studied enough.

531
00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: Well. Thankfully, the police in Great Falls in Montana do

532
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: something very very smart. They collect all sorts of evidence.

533
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: They collect patties, clothing, of course, they collect everything off

534
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: of Dwayne. They try to take fingerprints. All of this

535
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: including taking a vaginal swab, and our researcher, Marin wanted

536
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: me to tell you that she looked at all kinds

537
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: of different coverage and she found that vaginal swabs were

538
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: routine to take as evidence at the time in the

539
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, which actually surprised me. And they preserved it.

540
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: Well, that's the big thing. Yes, sexual assault swabs were

541
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: routinely being taken by the pathologist, and my experience working

542
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: more cases out of the late sixties and seventies, the

543
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: pathologists would determine whether or not semen was present. They'd

544
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: do a microscopic examination looking for sperm, and then typically

545
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: throw everything out. So I can't tell you how many

546
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: cases I've run across even now on a nationwide level,

547
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: since I'm consulting on cases nationwide in which the sexual

548
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: assault evidence was collected that could solve the case, but

549
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: the pathologist threw it out because all they could do

550
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: during this timeframe was yes, semen was there, she was

551
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: actually assaulted. So I love the fact that the investigating

552
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: agency acquired the vaginal swab and put it into their

553
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: property room.

554
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: And apparently they did a great job preserving it. Because

555
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to take you step by step, because we're

556
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: talking about something that happened over two decades, starting in

557
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: two thousands, where of course we know technology has changed

558
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 1: for DNA. So let me tell you what happens. First.

559
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: There is a detective and I'm going to name him

560
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: because he did some great work, named John Cadner. He

561
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: was a detective with Cascade County and in two thousand

562
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: and one he found out about this old case. He

563
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: found out that there was still a vaginal swab that

564
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: they had preserved. Well, he sent it to the state

565
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: crime Lab for analysis and basically came back and there's

566
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: a sperm cell that didn't belong to Dwyane that was identified.

567
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: So they ran it through CODIS and they didn't get

568
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: any hits through CODIS, but there's better news to come.

569
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: So what they were able to do was exclude Whitey Bulger,

570
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: which we assumed was going to be excluded to begin with,

571
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: and Edward Wayne Edwards, and of course Dwayne his sperm

572
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: wasn't present there either, So tell me a little bit

573
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: about that. That was all they were able to determine

574
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: from that sample in two thousand and one. So tell

575
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: me first about that technology, and I guess excluding is

576
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: very important also, but also the difference between CODIS in

577
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: two thousand and one and CODIS in twenty twenty two.

578
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: Okay, well, yeah, two thousand and one, roughly that timeframe

579
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: is when crime labs really embraced the modern DNA technology

580
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: that is still in use today. You know this short

581
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: tandem repeat technology what we shortened as STRs because it

582
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: was PCR based, this plumerase chain reaction that amplifies the

583
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: amount of DNA that you have in a sample so

584
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,239
Speaker 2: you can actually get a DNA profile. That ended up

585
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: really converting the FBI's CODA system into something that was

586
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: very broadly able to be used on cases that had

587
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: poor evidence. You don't have any information, I'm sure in

588
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: terms of the amount of DNA that they had off

589
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: of her vaginal swab from the sperm donor. But I'm

590
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: going to assume they were able to develop a full

591
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: str profile and loaded up into COTIS. They would see

592
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: in the criminal history sheets for Whitey Bulger and the

593
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: other serial killer. Yet their DNA is up in COTIS

594
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: and it didn't hit. And of course if the offender

595
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: had been sampled and uploaded into COTIS, then they would

596
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: have been linked back in two thousand and one. That

597
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: tells me all this this offenders DNA has not been

598
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: uploaded into COTIS, at least within the state of Montana,

599
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: and at the national level. The technology has only improved

600
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: since then. Two thousand and one is when I link

601
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: to the East Area rapists to the original night Stocker

602
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: series using this technology, it absolutely works in two thousand

603
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: and one, So in all likelihood, this detective is also

604
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: now looking at prime suspects within the case file or

605
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: develop his own suspects and going and getting samples from

606
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 2: them and directly having it compared to the sperm donor

607
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: from the offender and eliminating these people. So he now

608
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: has a tool that can be used to solve the case.

609
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: It's a blessing when you get something like this, you're

610
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: confident the sperm is from your killer. You just have

611
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: to find the person and you either rely on the

612
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: databases or you develop leads and get the person that way.

613
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: They didn't find the person. The detective worked very hard,

614
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: he was able to exclude a lot of people, but

615
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: based on the technology, they just ran into a dead end,

616
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: which was incredibly frustrating for Cadner. Detective Kadner and for

617
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: the remaining families of these two young people. It was

618
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: very upsetting, very frustrating, until something happened in twenty eighteen.

619
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: I wonder what that was.

620
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, it changed everything. When DiAngelo was arrested, the investigators

621
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: in Montana said hell, yeah, this is what we're going

622
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: to do. So they took their best shot. They had

623
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: a sperm samples still that they had preserved, and so

624
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: they worked with a company called Bodie Technology. You've worked

625
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: with them before.

626
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 3: I have.

627
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 2: They've been around for a long time, developing, you know,

628
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 2: instrumentation as well as providing laboratory services across the nation.

629
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 2: It's a private lab.

630
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: Okay, they run it through, it's processed, and they come

631
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: up with three genetically compatible matches in the commercial DNA databases.

632
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: And this was in twenty nineteen, So three matches. I'm

633
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: assuming that's successful.

634
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: Then well, you know, the genealogy technology works a little

635
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 2: bit differently, so it's not where you have three matches.

636
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: What I am interpreting based on what you said is

637
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: they ended up having three reasonably close relatives to the offender.

638
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: These maybe second cousins, which that's great when you can

639
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: find second cousins to the person you're trying to identify

640
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: or closer relatives, but they're not like identical matches. They

641
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 2: just share a percentage of their DNA. But at this

642
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 2: point you now have starting points to build family trees

643
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 2: using public resources ancestry dot com, find agrave dot com,

644
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: until you can find a common ancestor between these genetic relatives,

645
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: and then you identify all the descendants of this common ancestor.

646
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: The theory is is that the offender is a descendant

647
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: from this common ancestor of the people that had submitted

648
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: their DNA into the genealogy databases.

649
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: Well, they figure out who does. His name is Kenneth Gould.

650
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 1: He was twenty nine at the time, okay when all

651
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: of this happened. He died in two thousand and seven.

652
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: His children were still alive in twenty nineteen. He had

653
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: five of them. So the detectives from Montana approached all

654
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: five of them and three agreed to give their DNA.

655
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: He had been cremated. I think they were thinking of

656
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: digging him up. Yeah, but they went to the children

657
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: and they said okay, and it was a match.

658
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 2: So in essence, they were unable to get a direct

659
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: DNA sample from Gould.

660
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 3: These children biological children of his.

661
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: They have different DNA than the sperm, but it's like

662
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: a paternity test. So this is showing we know that

663
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: these are the children of Gould, and the sperm donor

664
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: from Patty is also the biological father of these children.

665
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 2: So that's how they're making a connection without this direct sample.

666
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: Well, let's find out if we were right about some stuff.

667
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: Kenneth gool. The first thing we wanted to know is

668
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: this a local. He was a local. He was from

669
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: Great Falls age we talked about. This was probably not

670
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: someone in the age range of Patty and Dwayne. Kenneth

671
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 1: was twenty nine okay when this happened. Now, this was

672
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: what was surprising to me. No criminal history at all

673
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: and none after so it is a one off. It

674
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: sounds like unless he got away with something that we

675
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: don't know about, but they ran him everywhere, so.

676
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 2: Right, at least with anything that's up in the databases

677
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: as well as his arrest records, it appears that he's clean.

678
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: However, we talked about the one off.

679
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: At this point, I wouldn't necessarily be entirely confident he's

680
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: a one. Author's many cases that have not been worked

681
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 2: for DNA. They don't have their evidence up in the

682
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 2: database up into the FBI's Code of system. So there's

683
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: a chance that he has other crimes. I think my

684
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: big question is is did he know Dwayne or Patty?

685
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 1: So they aren't sure, but there's a good possibility. Okay,

686
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: So they tried find a direct connection between Gould and

687
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: Duayne or Patty, and it's possible he knew Patty because

688
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: he lived only about a mile from her house, and

689
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: in the fifties he was an avid horse rider and

690
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: in the fifties he had several horses and a property

691
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: that was just six hundred yards from her house. I

692
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: would presume he at least saw her around.

693
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

694
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: He also could have just gone to Lover's Lane to

695
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: see who was there, and this is what happened. So

696
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: we don't know for sure.

697
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that'd be almost an impossible question at this

698
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: point in order to figure out with him dead, maybe determining,

699
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: you know, had he been out at Levers Lane himself before?

700
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: Was there any indication that he had talked to Patty.

701
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: It's so hard to be able to do that from

702
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty six.

703
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was solved in June of twenty twenty one,

704
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: so this was sixty five years later. So what we

705
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: know about Gould was that he had married a sixteen

706
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: year old in nineteen fifty two, which would have been

707
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: four years before he would have been She was sixteen,

708
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: he would have been twenty five. They had five children together,

709
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: and not long after Dwayne and Patty were killed, Gould

710
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 1: sold all of his property and moved out of the state.

711
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: Eventually he settled in Missouri. So you're right, there could

712
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: have been cases in Missouri that hadn't been worked and

713
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: there's no connection. But obviously in the fifties, there's no

714
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: connection between the law enforcement and Missouri and those in Montana.

715
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: And the point that I will make is is that

716
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: so many agencies don't have evidence from cases from the

717
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties.

718
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just got rid of it over the decades.

719
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 3: It's gone.

720
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't even collect it to begin with, you know,

721
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: So there's a possibility that he's got others out there

722
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 2: and they will never be linked back up to him. Yeah.

723
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: So after sixty five years, the Sheriff's office makes a

724
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: big announcement that this case, this cold case, this lover's

725
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: Lanes case has finally been solved. It's too bad that

726
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: Gould was dead at this point, but it was so important,

727
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: I think, to Duayne and Patty's families and just to

728
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,479
Speaker 1: the history of that area to be able to solve

729
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: this case. So it's amazing. Boy. Sometimes, as we know,

730
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm looking at you, Paul Hols, it just takes one

731
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: person to really latch onto a story. I don't know

732
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: what possessed this detective in two thousand and one to

733
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: look back and think, well, not forty five years ago,

734
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: maybe I'll try this, but I guess because they had

735
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: the evidence and it was stored well. I mean, that's

736
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: amazing for a vaginal swap to be stored that well,

737
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: to be able to pull DNA off of it sixty

738
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: five years later.

739
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, the technology is just so critical, you know, it's

740
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: gotten to a point to where I fully expect that

741
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: even older cases are going to be solved. DNA is

742
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: a hardy molecule, and as long as it's been treated

743
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 2: okay over the decades, there's a great chance that the

744
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: DNA could result and a DNA profile being obtained and

745
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 2: then these cases being solved.

746
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: So it's amazing.

747
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: Obviously, the genealogy tool is showing its power. You know,

748
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: here you have Gould, who had no criminal history. His

749
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: DNA is not in any law enforcement database, and by

750
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: utilizing the genealogy tool, they're able to identify him. He

751
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: very possibly to Like many of these offenders, you know,

752
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 2: he recognized he committed a crime, a double homicide. He

753
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: does not want to get caught. He probably lived the

754
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: rest of his life completely paranoid and doing everything he

755
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: could to avoid having law enforcement obtain his DNA because

756
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: he knows, you know, in two thousand he's dying in

757
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. Yeah, well, DNA really got into

758
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: the public awareness in nineteen ninety five with the O. J.

759
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: Simpson case, And so he's putting two and two together.

760
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 2: I left my DNA. They could catch me now. And

761
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 2: so that's what these offenders have been doing since the

762
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: advent of the DNA databasing is they try to avoid

763
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 2: getting their DNA put up there. But what they're not

764
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 2: counting on as a third cousin they've never met, decides

765
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 2: to do genealogy.

766
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 3: Yep.

767
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: Well that's what's giving us a starting point to identify them.

768
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: I've been hoping to bring a case to you. That

769
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: would be another illustration of a direct impact that your

770
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: work on the Golden State Killer case had on other cases.

771
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: There have been a couple of cases where we've kind

772
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: of said, maybe this is someone who had heard you

773
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: talk or had seen you on TV, or had read

774
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: about the case. This is an actual They credit the

775
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: Golden State Killer case for solving this case. And I

776
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: can tell you, Paul, I interview enough people relatives who

777
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: are descendants of people who have died one hundred years ago,

778
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,479
Speaker 1: and the pain is still there. It is still there

779
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 1: when there's an unsolved case or a missing person. So

780
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: anytime you can come with any kind of a resolution,

781
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: I think it's fantastic. And you know the power of that.

782
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: So I'm so happy to pursus this case to you

783
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: as an illustration of the hard work you've done. As

784
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: if you need to hear that, I know you hear

785
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: it all the time, but you're hearing it from me now.

786
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 3: Well.

787
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: You know, obviously with Golden State Killer, that was a

788
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: team effort. You know, myself and Steve Kramer were the

789
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 2: ones that really were pursuing it. I am very proud

790
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: that the efforts that we did on Golden State killer

791
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 2: has had this type of domino effect. You know, it

792
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: really is a true revolution to these cases and to

793
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 2: the families, victims' families. You know, they're getting answers, and

794
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: sometimes those answers are very traumatic, but they want the

795
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 2: answer right now. Since Golden State Killer, of course, I've

796
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 2: done presentations to law enforcement across the nation and actually

797
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 2: internationally up in Canada, come to think of it, about

798
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 2: the genealogy tool and how it was used to catch DeAngelo.

799
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 2: Steve Kramer with the FBI has been going across the

800
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 2: nation also teaching as well as working cases across then

801
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: up until he just recently retired. So law enforcement is

802
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 2: getting more and more well versed in this technology, and

803
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: these laboratories are getting better and better at working the

804
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 2: forensic evidence as well as doing the genealogy. So things

805
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 2: are just going to snowball from here at this point.

806
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: Well, I think we deserve a week off, so we're

807
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: going to take next week off. I'm sure we'll still talk.

808
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: We'll have next week off, and then we will be

809
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: back with another fantastic case. So thank you for listening,

810
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: and thanks Kate.

811
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 3: That actually was a great case. Thank you very much.

812
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 4: Thank you.

813
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly Right production for our sources

814
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

815
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

816
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

817
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

818
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

819
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

820
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

821
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

822
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

823
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

824
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

825
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

826
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold Cases,

827
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: is also available now