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Speaker 1: I'm not saying this woman doesn't exist. I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: she reads like a woman written by a man. There

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Speaker 1: are no girls on the Internet. As a production of

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge Todd, and this is

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Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. So I feel

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Speaker 1: like Christmas has kind of come a little bit early

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Speaker 1: for me because Mike, as you know, not only am

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Speaker 1: I deeply fascinated by identity and technology, but also I

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Speaker 1: am deeply fascinated by my other true love, which is scams.

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Speaker 1: You know this about me. I love a good scam.

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Speaker 1: I love scam content, scam podcasts. Give me all the scams.

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't scam me, but I want to be

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Speaker 1: not involved in the scam. And then hear about how

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Speaker 1: the scam unfolded. So what can be like, Oh, that's

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Speaker 1: how they did it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Your love of scams and catfishing is legendary, no doubt.

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Speaker 1: So catfishing is a scam that I am specifically interested in.

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Speaker 1: And this wild story that was blowing up on Twitter

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Speaker 1: last week involves all three identity and technology, scams, and catfishing,

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Speaker 1: And as fascinating as I find all of these, I

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Speaker 1: also think It's really a story that tells us a

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Speaker 1: lot about how people actually think about marginalized folks and technology,

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Speaker 1: Like do they actually see us? When they see us?

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Speaker 1: Do they respect us when they actually do include us?

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Speaker 1: Is that inclusion a gimmick? Is it done to take

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Speaker 1: the heat off criticism?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: Why is it done? And when they try to include

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Speaker 1: us and get it so so so wrong, what does

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Speaker 1: that tell us to So let's talk about Devternity. So

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Speaker 1: dev Trinity is a tech conference for developers that attendees

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Speaker 1: have to pay from as little as four hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty five dollars up to eight hundred and seventy dollars

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Speaker 1: to attend. It was founded by Edward Sizoff in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: So this conference had been called out for not having

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Speaker 1: a very diverse lineup of speakers, like most of their

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Speaker 1: speakers tended to be white men. And to deal with that, Edwards,

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Speaker 1: the organizer, allegedly decided to flesh out their lineup by

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Speaker 1: tapping into the existing pool of really talented marginalized people

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Speaker 1: who have been building and shaking things up in tech

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Speaker 1: for a very long time. Oh wait, no, no, no, that's

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Speaker 1: not what he did. That would be a normal thing

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Speaker 1: to do. What he actually did was flesh out that

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Speaker 1: lineup by creating AI generated women speakers to add to

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Speaker 1: the lineup. And as if that's not bad enough, like

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Speaker 1: that's already pretty bad. It doesn't stop there, because in

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Speaker 1: addition to creating those phony women to speak at his conference,

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Speaker 1: it was also revealed that Edwards had been running this

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Speaker 1: entire like fake female tech influencer Catfish Enterprise, and had

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Speaker 1: been doing so for years. Unsurprisingly, the entire thing was

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Speaker 1: full of drama and honestly, like, I don't think I

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Speaker 1: have ever seen anything unfold quite like this in this before,

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Speaker 1: So let's get into it. So this all started when

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Speaker 1: engineer Gurgly Orzos was looking into the lineup at deb

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Speaker 1: Trinity after a couple of his colleagues were asked to

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Speaker 1: speak there. He started looking into the lineup and became

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Speaker 1: a little bit suspicious of two of the women's speakers listed.

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Speaker 1: So these two women's speakers had been listed as coming

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Speaker 1: from a pretty prominent tech company Coinbase, which is like

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Speaker 1: a cryptocurrency exchange platform, and a boyco who was on

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Speaker 1: the speaker's page listed as a staff engineer at Coinbase,

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Speaker 1: and Natalie Slash Natalia. Sometimes it's Natalie, sometimes it's Italia Stadler,

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Speaker 1: who was listed as a software craftswoman at Coinbase. So

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Speaker 1: one of these women who was listed as working at

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Speaker 1: Coinbase said that she was also affiliated with Ethereum, a

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Speaker 1: type of cryptocurrency, and Girkley was like, it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit odd that somebody would be speaking at a conference

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Speaker 1: representing both Coinbase, a cryptocurrency platform, and also a type

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Speaker 1: of cryptocurrency. He was like, that didn't seem right to me,

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Speaker 1: So he got suspicious and looked into it, and that's

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Speaker 1: when he found that these women did not seem to exist.

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Speaker 1: They don't have any kind of social presence beyond what

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Speaker 1: appears on the conference website. Gurgly tweeted, imagine a tech

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Speaker 1: conference having no call for proposals. As they reach out

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Speaker 1: to speakers directly, they successfully attract some of the most

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Speaker 1: heavy hitter male speakers in tech and three women speakers.

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Speaker 1: Now imagine my surprise that two of those women are

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Speaker 1: fake profiles. They do not exist, nada. So I gotta

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Speaker 1: really give it to Gurgley here. He must have sniffed

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Speaker 1: out that something was fishy and then like just held

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Speaker 1: it like nursed it like a grudge and held on

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Speaker 1: to it like a dog with a bone. Because dude

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Speaker 1: did his homework. He found web archives that go back

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Speaker 1: to twenty twenty one that list these two non existent

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Speaker 1: women as speakers at Debternity. One of them also spoke

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Speaker 1: or at least was listed as a speaker back in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two as well. In the aftermath of all this,

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Speaker 1: Gurgley really did some deep digging. He found a tweet

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Speaker 1: from twenty twenty one publicly calling out the conference for

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Speaker 1: having a mostly male lineup. On August third, twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: Mattie Stratton, a director of developer relations, tweeted, good thing

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Speaker 1: I'm not tweeting about tech this week, or else I

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Speaker 1: might have to call out de Trinity for pretty much

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Speaker 1: having all white dudes as speakers. Given who they listed

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Speaker 1: at the top, it doesn't surprise me at all. So

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Speaker 1: then Julia Kurshina, also known as Coding Unicorn, who calls

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Speaker 1: herself one of the conference co founders, replies, remember Julia's

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Speaker 1: name because she is going to become important. Later, Julia

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Speaker 1: replies to Matti's sweet saying, Hi, matt Julia from the

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Speaker 1: deft Trinity team here, thanks for raising this out of

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Speaker 1: the fourteen invited female speakers, three confirmed, two canceled as

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Speaker 1: we had to postpone to survive COVID. There is a

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Speaker 1: lot to improve, so you can advise on how to

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Speaker 1: make the line up better. Let's chat. I'll send you

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Speaker 1: a DM. So this very same day that Mattie calls

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Speaker 1: out de Trinity for having an all male lineup August third,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, is when de Trinity also coincidentally adds

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Speaker 1: their very first fake woman speaker. As I said, Gurgley

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Speaker 1: brought receipts. The Defternity conference website has a public GitHub repo.

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Speaker 1: GitHub is a place online where developers can show other

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Speaker 1: folks that they're working on where you could see the

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Speaker 1: full edit history of the conference website. So he included

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Speaker 1: a screenshot showing the specific changes to the website and

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Speaker 1: the date of those changes. Confirms that Natalia Sladder, software

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Speaker 1: craftswoman at Coinbase, was added a few hours after Maddie's

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Speaker 1: complaint of the lack of diversity of the conference, two

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Speaker 1: hours to be exact. In that edit, Julia, the conference

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Speaker 1: co founder, was also added to the speaker's lineup. So

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Speaker 1: I don't know that seems pretty suspicious like that timing.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you're gonna make up fake people,

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Speaker 2: why have all the changes to your website be publicly

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Speaker 2: on GitHub.

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Speaker 1: Gurgley also found that another one of the fake women

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Speaker 1: added to the lineup's headshot was taken from This Person

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Speaker 1: does not Exist, which is a site that randomly generates

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Speaker 1: pictures of non existent people generated by AI, which is

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Speaker 1: like pretty funny that the place where he got these

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Speaker 1: pictures really spells out what's going on This Person does

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Speaker 1: not Exist. Overall, Gurgley found four non existent people who

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Speaker 1: are all women listed as speakers on this conference website

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Speaker 1: since they were called out for their lack of women

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Speaker 1: speakers back in twenty twenty one. Gurglely writes on his website,

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Speaker 1: I decided to share that this conference advertises fake speakers

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Speaker 1: and has done so for years. This statement is easily

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Speaker 1: verifiable by anybody in the same way that I did.

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Speaker 1: I have not seen this type of deceit at any

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Speaker 1: other conference, and I've seen enough that I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to keep quiet, and honestly, like I got a major

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Speaker 1: shout outs to Gurgle here, we will throw the piece

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Speaker 1: on his website with all of his receipts in the

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Speaker 1: show notes for folks to check out. You definitely should.

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Speaker 1: But one of the questions that Gurgley does ask is

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Speaker 1: that he got suspicious when he saw this lineup, and

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't believe that he is the only person

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Speaker 1: who got suspicious, Like he doesn't think he was the

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Speaker 1: only person to be like looking at these people up.

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Speaker 1: These women were listed as working for very prominent tech companies,

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Speaker 1: and so certainly somebody has like looked them up on

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Speaker 1: LinkedIn or whatever for whatever reason. Is like, I'm the

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Speaker 1: only person who decided to speak up about it who

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Speaker 1: didn't want to keep quiet, And even that, to me

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Speaker 1: is really interesting, Like I don't know what's really going

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Speaker 1: on there, but it almost makes me wonder if the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of people at this conference didn't think the

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Speaker 1: women speakers were worth really paying attention to so let

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Speaker 1: alone like investigating, throwing them into a quick Google search whatever.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they were just like prominent male name in tech,

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Speaker 1: prominent mail name in tech, prominent male name in tech,

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Speaker 1: some useless chick, some useless chick, prominent male name in tech,

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Speaker 1: prominent male name in tech. Like maybe it didn't even

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Speaker 1: register to them to be paying attention to the women speakers,

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Speaker 1: what organizations they represented in what they were talking about.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it didn't even register to be looking at them

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Speaker 1: all that closely because like they maybe they just like

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Speaker 1: didn't value them in the same way. That's just my theory,

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Speaker 1: because I do agree with Gurgley here that certainly he

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Speaker 1: cannot be the first person who have uncovered this, and

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Speaker 1: it did not take a very substantial amount of digging

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Speaker 1: to find out that these people weren't necessarily real. So like,

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Speaker 1: what's going on?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel like we encounter weird stuff

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Speaker 2: online all the time, and it's so easy to just

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Speaker 2: chalk it up to like maybe it's a scam, or

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Speaker 2: maybe the internet is broken, or maybe I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I would like to think that if

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Speaker 1: I encountered this, I would have said something.

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Speaker 2: Would you have would you have dug? Like Gurgly, I.

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Speaker 1: Would have dug for sure if I had sniffed out,

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Speaker 1: Like I have a lot of time on my hands

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Speaker 1: and I love to do a deep dive, So if

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Speaker 1: I had like sniffed out that something funky was going on,

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Speaker 1: I probably would have looked into it. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: the kind of person who might have like thought that

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Speaker 1: I was misunderstanding something, or that I was getting something

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Speaker 1: wrong or misreading something. I respect that Gurgle is the

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Speaker 1: kind of person who was like, I'm taking this to

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Speaker 1: social media right away because something is not right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that too. Kudos to.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break editor back.

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Speaker 1: So, Gurgly is pretty suspicious about some of these women

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Speaker 1: speakers on the lineup. He does some digging and decides

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Speaker 1: to post about this on LinkedIn and Twitter, where the

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Speaker 1: Defternity conference founder Edward says off first tweets in response.

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Speaker 1: So his response is probably one of the most dramatic

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Speaker 1: but also nonsensical explanations I have ever read in my life.

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Speaker 1: It is super long, Like it's still up on Twitter

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Speaker 1: if folks want to, We'll link to the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: but like, I'm not going to read the whole thing here,

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Speaker 1: but I will get into a couple of key bits. So,

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Speaker 1: first of all, Edward says that, oh no, it is

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Speaker 1: not him who has done something wrong. He heavily implies

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Speaker 1: that Gurgly must be the bad guy. Why because Gurgley

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Speaker 1: took to social media to talk about this in the

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Speaker 1: first place. Rather than I guess like contacting him directly privately,

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Speaker 1: which means that Gurgley just wants attention, he just wants clout.

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Speaker 1: He's jealous, he's trying to take me down. Edwards writes,

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Speaker 1: I won't be responding directly to mister Rozov's accusation and

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Speaker 1: won't even link to it here, given that he didn't

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Speaker 1: even bother contact in me and sharing his concerns. He

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Speaker 1: went straight to socials and, using the power of his

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Speaker 1: social network, shared all his assumptions without validating them, damaging

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Speaker 1: my life's work and reputation. I don't know what his

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Speaker 1: intention was, but harm has been done, nothing good, only harm.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's Gurgle who is the bad guy. Because

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Speaker 1: Gurgley decided to like ask what's happening, to use his

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Speaker 1: platform on social media to ask some really good questions

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Speaker 1: that need answers, That alone is evidence of Gurgley being

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Speaker 1: the bad guy and try being out to get Edwards.

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Speaker 1: Edwards also uses some pretty choice language defending himself. He writes,

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Speaker 1: alex A blain to you what happened, and then you

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Speaker 1: decide if my life's work and the upcoming event deserved

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Speaker 1: to be ruined and I ought to be lynched. The

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Speaker 1: use of the word lynched there is a choice. It

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Speaker 1: will not be the last time he uses that word

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Speaker 1: to reference what's going on in the situation. So then

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Speaker 1: he kind of gets into his explanation of what's going on,

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Speaker 1: which is that basically it was a mistake, a mistake

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Speaker 1: that he realized happened, but then this didn't have time

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Speaker 1: to fix, he says. So he claims that Natalie's name

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Speaker 1: and profile was auto generated with a random title, random

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Speaker 1: Twitter handle, and random picture, and that he realized that

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Speaker 1: this was happening and it was a mistake that he

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Speaker 1: intended to fix it, but then he realized that it

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Speaker 1: wasn't going to be a quick fix, and that quote,

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Speaker 1: it's better to have that demo persona while I'm searching

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Speaker 1: for replacement speakers. And first of all, like I am

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Speaker 1: no developer, so like, maybe it's not a quick fix.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it takes to fix this. I cannot speak for

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Speaker 1: whether or not that's true. It does sound like bullshit

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Speaker 1: to me, but I don't know. But I have to say,

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Speaker 1: even if that is true, like even if what he

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Speaker 1: said we take him at his word, it is still

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Speaker 1: in my book, pretty deceitful because you're asking people to

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Speaker 1: pay eight hundred dollars when you know the lineup that

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Speaker 1: you are advertising publicly could not possibly come to fruition. Like,

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Speaker 1: what if I'm really interested in whatever this fake person

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Speaker 1: Natalie has to say and her line, like her line

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Speaker 1: of work and her expertise, and I spend money, I

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Speaker 1: plunk down eight hundred dollars to see her speak because

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in her, and you advertise her as a speaker.

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Speaker 1: That would be deceitful. And it's interesting to me how he,

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Speaker 1: in his like explanation, glosses over that so quickly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the deceitfulness here is definitely the worst part.

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Speaker 1: So he does say that the conference ended up having

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Speaker 1: a less diverse than predicted lineup because these women who

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Speaker 1: had agreed to speak all dry for reasons that he

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Speaker 1: could not control. He writes, Sandy for health issues, Julia

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Speaker 1: switched to helping the organization. You can't do both speaking

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Speaker 1: and organization. Sandy and Julia didn't make it to the

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Speaker 1: final schedule, but they kept appearing on the website while

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Speaker 1: I was looking for a replacement. This partially led to

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Speaker 1: an accusation that since they're not part of the schedule.

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Speaker 1: We've probably added them just to meet arbitrary diversity criterias.

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Speaker 1: This statement is bold and unfair. Sandy and Julia confirmed

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Speaker 1: their participation. They should have been part of the final schedule,

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Speaker 1: but dropped out for reasons out of our control at

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Speaker 1: the worst possible time. Ask Sandy or Julia. So we

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Speaker 1: ended up with only one female speaker, Chris. So while

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Speaker 1: I was looking for a last minute replacement hoping i'd

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Speaker 1: find it, Sandy and Julia were still mentioned on the website.

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Speaker 1: So I have to say some of these people did

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Speaker 1: end up being real. Christine Howard, who is the head

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Speaker 1: of developer relations at Amazon Web Services, confirmed a foural

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Speaker 1: four media that she had agreed to speak and that

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Speaker 1: she does exist. Sandy Metz is a real person who

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Speaker 1: four or four media confirmed did agree to speak and

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Speaker 1: had to drop out because she was getting nee surgery.

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Speaker 1: The conference founder keeps repeating this like very weird point

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Speaker 1: in his defense that none of the fake women ever

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Speaker 1: actually made it onto the final lineup, And I don't

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Speaker 1: totally know what he means there, but I think that

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Speaker 1: what he is saying is that even though these women

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Speaker 1: weren't actually speaking, and they were listed as speakers that

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Speaker 1: they didn't actually show up to speak, and so like

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Speaker 1: nobody was duped, but like, of course they didn't show

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Speaker 1: up to speak, they're not real people.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like he's saying that Julia had to drop

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Speaker 2: out because she was going to be on the organizing committee,

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Speaker 2: and I've never heard of that being a rule that like,

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Speaker 2: if you're on the organizing committee, you can't speak at

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Speaker 2: the conference. Like that's just not a thing that I've

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Speaker 2: ever heard, So that doesn't make sense. And then he

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Speaker 2: also says that she had to drop out due to

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Speaker 2: circumstances beyond their control. But that circumstance was that she

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Speaker 2: wanted to be an organizer rather than a speaker, So

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Speaker 2: like that also does it make sense?

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Speaker 1: No, none of it makes sense. His entire explanation is

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Speaker 1: nonsensical to me. So after this whole thing went viral

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Speaker 1: on Twitter, Edwards did remove the fake women from the website,

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Speaker 1: so I guess apparently, and ended up being a quicker

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Speaker 1: fix than he had previously indicated. Like the reason why

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Speaker 1: he said that he couldn't he was aware of this

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Speaker 1: mistake on the website but couldn't fix it is because

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Speaker 1: it was not a quick fix, but apparently quick enough

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Speaker 1: that it could be taken care of within a day

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Speaker 1: of this going viral on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Right, and the fix was changing some copy on the website,

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Speaker 2: which historically in most systems is a pretty quick fix.

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Speaker 1: It would take weeks. So lastly, from Edwards's long Twitter explanation,

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Speaker 1: you know who is really at thought? Here?

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Speaker 2: Can you guess society?

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Speaker 1: Society? According to Edward, specifically, cancel culture. He tweeted, I

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Speaker 1: said it was a mistake, a bug that turned out

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Speaker 1: to be a feature. I even fixed that on my website.

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Speaker 1: We're cool, right, No, we want blood. Let's cancel this

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Speaker 1: sinner all caps. The amount of hate and lynching I

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Speaker 1: keep receiving is as if I would have scammed or

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Speaker 1: killed someone. But I won't defend myself because I don't

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Speaker 1: feel guilty. I did nothing terrible that I need to

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Speaker 1: apologize for. Side note, I'm not sure that Edward knows

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Speaker 1: what lynching is like. I would like to sit him

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Speaker 1: down and ask him what he thinks it entails. So

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Speaker 1: not only is this, in my opinion, like deeply unethical behavior,

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Speaker 1: from the perspective of people being asked to pay eight

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Speaker 1: up to eight hundred dollars to attend this conference with

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Speaker 1: a fake lineup. It also really sucks for the other speakers.

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Speaker 1: Scott Hanselman, who is a very well respected person in

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Speaker 1: the space who cares a lot about things like inclusion

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Speaker 1: and diversity in tech, was slated to speak but pulled

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Speaker 1: out after all this happened, tweeted this whole conference debacle

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Speaker 1: is so disappointing. Speakers like myself, when invited to a conference,

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Speaker 1: will immediately say who all's going to be there? I've

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Speaker 1: my rules for participation posted on my site, including an

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Speaker 1: inclusive lineup for years. I was duped by fake speakers also,

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Speaker 1: and so it's pretty bad when people who have made

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Speaker 1: it their thing to use their like Scott Hanselman is

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Speaker 1: a white man. The fact that he is someone who

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Speaker 1: is like intentionally using his privilege and his reputation and

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Speaker 1: his background to try to help inclusion in the space

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Speaker 1: and like do what he can to make it more

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Speaker 1: inclusive by saying, yeah, if you want me to speak

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Speaker 1: at your event, it has to be inclusive. Giving that

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Speaker 1: incentive for organizers to make their spaces inclusive. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: work if these organizers just lie and just make up

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Speaker 1: who is who is going to be on the lineup.

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Speaker 1: David Heinemeir Hansen, the creator of Rubyon Rails, was also

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Speaker 1: slated to speak and pulled out, and he said that

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Speaker 1: he he asked for his name to be removed from

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Speaker 1: the lineup website, a request that was not honored. Oosh.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have to say, if I had all

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Speaker 1: of these like big name, high profile people in the

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Speaker 1: tech space dragging me like this, I would just be more.

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Speaker 1: This is like like I had nothing to do with this,

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Speaker 1: and I'm embarrassed for Edwards, you know, like this would

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Speaker 1: be mortifying to me.

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Speaker 2: From what I've seen poking around it, like the dep

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Speaker 2: Turnity website and Julia's coding Unicorn Instagram account, it seems

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Speaker 2: like there Edwards is really into deb Turnity. I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously it's his whole it seems to be his whole

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Speaker 2: professional gig. But it's just like the aesthetic trappings of

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Speaker 2: coding so far as I can tell, Like maybe there's

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Speaker 2: more to it, but like the sense that one gets

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Speaker 2: from looking at the social accounts is not that there's

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Speaker 2: like deep important wisdom, uh and new stuff being revealed

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Speaker 2: at this conference, but it's really just esthetics and social

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Speaker 2: aspects of being a coder developer, and so the loss

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Speaker 2: of these high profile people that that's got to like

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Speaker 2: really sting, right because it seems like the whole thing

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Speaker 2: is built on big names and credibility and uh starfucking.

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Speaker 1: So I want to get into that more in just

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Speaker 1: a bit, because I have picked up on what you're

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Speaker 1: saying too, and I think it goes quite a bit

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Speaker 1: deeper than that. But specifically about the dep Trinity conference.

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Speaker 1: In preparing for this episode, I too like poked around

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Speaker 1: their website and their social and the video, like their

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Speaker 1: sizzle reel that they have for the event. It basically

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Speaker 1: is like debternity, this is a conference people attend. There

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Speaker 1: are lanyards like It's like what they're telling me is like,

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Speaker 1: this is definitely a tech conference that people go to.

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Speaker 1: Like they're not telling me what I will learn, what

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00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,440
Speaker 1: the space feels like, like why I want to show

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Speaker 1: up there. It's like they're more interested in the flash

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Speaker 1: and surface appearance of a slick tech conference, but it

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Speaker 1: feels completely surface level.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe we could talk about the name dev Turnity.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean? One might say it doesn't mean anything.

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Speaker 1: One might even go further and say maybe it's a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit fake, yeah, but it is a real name. It

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Speaker 2: seems to be a blend of the words dev as

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Speaker 2: a developer and eternity as in the time period that

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Speaker 2: thirteen year olds will pledge their undying love. I guess

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Speaker 2: it's putting those things together with a fake Instagram account

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Speaker 2: of a fake woman.

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Speaker 1: Well, you don't have to worry about that for too

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Speaker 1: much longer because deb Turnity is canceled. Several speakers started

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Speaker 1: dropping out for this happened, and the event was meant

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00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: to be in just a few days, so it's not happening.

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Speaker 1: So even if it was just that right like, this

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00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: would already be one of the weirdest stories I have

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00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: ever heard happening at a tech conference. But as you hinted,

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00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: it does not stop there because remember Julia Krishina aka

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Speaker 1: Coding Unicorn, the conference co founder. So Julia was slated

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Speaker 1: to be a speaker at dep Trinity in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, and twenty twenty three. She was the

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00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 1: person who was supposed to speak, but then moved up

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Speaker 1: to be an organizer, so she couldn't speak, And we

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00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: think that maybe that's a BS but whatever, She is

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00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: also a pretty established tech influencer. Her Instagram account, called

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00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,479
Speaker 1: Coding Unicorn, goes back to twenty eighteen. She has one

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00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty thousand followers on her account, where her

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00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: bio reads the best coding account on Instagram. Hi, my

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Speaker 1: name is Julia. I am a professional software developer posting

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Speaker 1: nobs coding career and productivity tips and a dep Trinity fan.

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00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: She's done your basic like influencer stuff. She does giveaways,

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00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 1: raffles on her platform, all that stuff. Her pictures show

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00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: her presumably working on code and really looking hot, like

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Speaker 1: showing a lot of cleavage and just generally kind of

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00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 1: like being a tech hottie while really hyping up devternity

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00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: events and conferences. But and here's the big reveal, she's

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00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: not even real. It doesn't look like foural four Media

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00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 1: looked into it. They found ip logs that seem to

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00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: indicate Edwards inviting and then logging into an account belonging

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00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: to Coding Unicorn, which is Julia's social media handle, so

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00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 1: basically just like logging in as her. A YouTube video

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00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 1: posted last year by Edwards that had five views when

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00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: foal four Media accessed it showed him logged into his

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00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: own email accounts, as well as one for Coding Unicorn.

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00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: Many of Coding Unicorn's posts are just copied and pasted

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00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: from Edwards's LinkedIn or Instagram without any attribution. Edwards also

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00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: pretty explicitly admits that he is the one responsible for

431
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 1: the Coding Unicorn account on his LinkedIn profile, saying I

432
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 1: devote most of my time to growing the most popular

433
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: coding account on Instagram with one hundred and twenty k followers,

434
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: coding Unicorn, without elaborating on exactly what that entails. So

435
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: this is pretty confusing. I think it's time we heard

436
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: from Julia herself. Hi, everybody, it's good in unicorn here.

437
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 3: Do you want to become an awesome software developer, build

438
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 3: a successful career, become more podoctic than happy. I'm here

439
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 3: to have.

440
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, the tech company hash Node published an

441
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: interview with Julia on their Women in Tech blog, all

442
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: about the issues that Julia faces being a woman working

443
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: in a male dominated space. Now, the person that wrote

444
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: that article has confirmed with foural for Media that the

445
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: interview was conducted via email and they never actually spoke. Honestly,

446
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: the interview kind of reads like bad hacker girl fan fiction.

447
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: Here's a little taste of it. Julia, how'd you get

448
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: into tech? Nine years ago? My parents forced me to

449
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: go to college and get a computer science degree. They

450
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: wanted me to find a nice, quiet office job because

451
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: I was a problem kid, a school rebel. I didn't

452
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: fulfill my parents' dreams. I am still a rebel, but

453
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: one with a computer science degree. So tell me that

454
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: does not sound like like a fantasy version of a

455
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: woman working in tech, Like I'm a rebel. The reason

456
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: why I became a programmer is because my parents were

457
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: looking for me to settle down and find a nice,

458
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: quiet job to stay out of trouble.

459
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like something from the nineties movie Hackers.

460
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: Which, by the way, I was looking at a picture

461
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: of the fashions from that movie Matthew Lillard in the

462
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: movie Hackers. Like the way that they had imagined how

463
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: computer hackers dress in that movie is really something. I

464
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: guess I'll just leave it at that. So in this interview,

465
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: when Julia is asked about gender bias in tech, will surprised.

466
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: Julia actually thinks that it's men who suffer the most

467
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: when it comes to gender bias. In tech. She says,

468
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 1: I don't like seeing women as victims because such a

469
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: mindset turns men into suspects. Men suffer from biases equal

470
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: to women. Think of job interviews, we give too much

471
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: attention to gender bias and appreciate other cognition biases, such

472
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: as doubt avoidance, where we make an ill decision just

473
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: to avoid uncertainty or reject a person that doesn't look

474
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: nice enough. Julia's advice for women to deal with gender

475
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: bias stop blaming others for being biased, improve yourself. So, yeah,

476
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: it reads to me like this fantasy, fictionalized version of

477
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: a woman in tech who doesn't think that there's any

478
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: kind of gender bias. It is not even interested in

479
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: talking about it. Certainly it would not say that she

480
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: has faced it herself, and it's only interested in improving her.

481
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: Like that just reads like a woman invented by a man.

482
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

483
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: So the evidence that links Edwards to being Julia, like

484
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: catfishing as Julia, or at least that indicates that she's

485
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: not a real human, is pretty overwhelming. Some of the

486
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: images that she has posted on Instagram that show computer

487
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: monitors have her logged in under Edwards's name on Lobster's,

488
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: a coding social media form. Edwards and Julia's accounts were

489
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: banned multiple times for sock puppeting in twenty nineteen and

490
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: twenty twenty. The person who runs lobster said, I remember

491
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: being creeped out of the effort involved and choice to

492
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: use Instagram glamour shots. It was just the one profile

493
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: when I saw him, and I'm kind of stunned that

494
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: He's not just continued, but multiplied his efforts again. Many

495
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: of Julia's Instagram posts were copied word for word from

496
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: Edwards's own social media accounts, and The Verge looked into

497
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: the university where Julia claims to have attended for her

498
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: bachelor's degree in information technology on her LinkedIn, and the

499
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: university said that they do not indicate any records of

500
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: a student with her name. I'm also like ninety nine

501
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: percent sure that it is not even the same woman

502
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: in every picture. It's like just a hot woman with

503
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: dark hair and ample cleavage and every picture. But I

504
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: genuinely like, I went back to the very first post

505
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: back in twenty eighteen, and I genuinely think they are

506
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: different people the woman who is used back in twenty

507
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: eighteen when the account first starts, looks very different from

508
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: the woman that is used today. They both have brown

509
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: hair and ample bosom, but that is pretty much where

510
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: the similarities end. Will put a link to a couple

511
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: of pictures of Julia from her Instagram in the show notes,

512
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: and honestly, you can be the judge. Let me know

513
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: if you think this is legit, these are all the

514
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: same women, or if you think something is going on

515
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: and this is kind of complicated, Like I want to

516
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: make sure that I am speaking about this carefully, but

517
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: we need to talk about the way that Julia presents

518
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: physically on Instagram. Like it's clear that he is going

519
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: for a specific kind of look with the way that

520
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: Julia looks on social media, Like she's very conventionally attractive.

521
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: In all of her pictures, she's posed to look like

522
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: I saw somebody describe it as almost like a booth

523
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: babe kind of way, where the cleavage is very prominent.

524
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: The poses are all kind of like like I wouldn't

525
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: call them sexualized, but they're definitely meant to highlight her

526
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: physicality and her looks and her figure. And it's this

527
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: very specific kind of almost like an uncanny valley kind

528
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: of hot where she is in these very clearly posed

529
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: staged pictures that look kind of fake that could not

530
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: possibly be depicting a real area where she's like really

531
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: working like this is. This might sound minor, but one

532
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: of the things about her is that she talks quite

533
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: a bit about how being a developer means that she

534
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: can travel the world, doesn't have a boss, she can

535
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,719
Speaker 1: work from whatever exotic locale that she wants. So in

536
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: one picture, she's meant to be working from like someplace

537
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: like an exotic beach of some kind, and she's holding

538
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: one of those big, giant coconuts where they just chop

539
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: the top off and put a straw in it and

540
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: then you're drinking it. Not the small ones, the big ones.

541
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: So if you've ever had one of those, you know

542
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: that they're like they're coconuts, and so the bottom is

543
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: round it it's not flat. You couldn't put it on

544
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: a table like you would a normal beverage container that

545
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: has a flat bottom. It's rounded. It's a coconut. So

546
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: she's holding it in one hand and working on her

547
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: laptop with another. In what world with somebody whose computer

548
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: is the main thing they work on beholding a tippy

549
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: beverage that you cannot sit down while also working one

550
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: handed on their laptop. I don't buy it never happening.

551
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: Best case scenario. It's a risky move.

552
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's risky. So I feel like Julia almost exists

553
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: as this kind of fantasy woman that a man would

554
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: cook up right, heaving, cleavage, beautiful, but also a really

555
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: skilled programmer. She's not a feminist. She doesn't think that

556
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: women have any societal disadvantages because of their gender. She

557
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: has a dirty mouth and makes like Pithy's zingers about

558
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: how people need to worry less about convention and worry

559
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: more about leveling up their tech skills. She describes herself

560
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: as a free thinker. In one post, she talks about

561
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: her favorite podcast. Can you guess who she lists as

562
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: one of her favorite podcasts?

563
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: Is it us? You know we got a tech podcast here?

564
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: No, it's Joe Rogan, of course.

565
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: Famous tech podcaster Joe Rogan.

566
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: She also likes Tim Ferris, also noted to and she

567
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: does this thing where she photo shops herself into pictures

568
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: with famous tech leaders, like she's a picture of herself

569
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: photoshopped with Elon Musk. Another picture of herself photoshopped with

570
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos. We actually found the source picture and it's

571
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: like she just photoshopped herself over his ex wife.

572
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was like an iconic photo that was

573
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: the go to photo for Jeff Bezos before they got divorced.

574
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: Like anyone who's seen a photo of Jeff Bezos in

575
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: the twenty tens, like that was it?

576
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you really called it. You were like, I've seen

577
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: this picture before, and you found it on reverse Google

578
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: image search very quickly. Side note, if anybody ever watches

579
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: the MTV show Catfish, you know that that's like when

580
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: when somebody who thinks they're being catfished calls Nev Schulman,

581
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: pretty much the only thing he can do is like,

582
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: let's let's reverse Google image search these these pictures. It's

583
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: like it's like the one tool in his toolbox that

584
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: he has. So if they're ever looking for a replacement

585
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: host that show, they could call us because we know

586
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: how to do it too. So I think that Julia

587
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: is like this caricature of a certain type of man's

588
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: dream woman, or like the kind of thing that a

589
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: male programmer might cook up in his head, his fantasy

590
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: as a woman in tech. You know, if you've ever

591
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: seen the movie Gone Girl, it's like the cool girl

592
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: persona but for tech right, like she's cool, she doesn't,

593
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: She's not a feminist, she has a foul mouth. Loves

594
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan thinks your sexist jokes are really cute. Loves

595
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: Elon musks like. I'm not saying this woman doesn't exist.

596
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: I'm just saying she reads like a woman written by

597
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: a man in his head. And it really reminds me

598
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: of something that an influencer with a very large male

599
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 1: following once told me. She told me that if your

600
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: audience is men, like if you're trying to curate men

601
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: as your audience and it's men who are consuming your

602
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: content on Instagram, those men are imagining themselves with you.

603
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: So you can't have like other men in your image.

604
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: You can't have anything that would ruin the illusion that

605
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: they could be with you. You can't have that in

606
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: your images. So I think whoever is running Julia's account,

607
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: I think it's probably Edwards is doing so in this

608
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: way that very much lets techy guys imagine that they

609
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: could be traveling the world with this like beautiful, foul mouthed,

610
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: nerdy woman who only wants to talk about leveling up

611
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: her tech skills while wearing like a bikini. Right, Like,

612
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: this Julia account is for men, Like I think that.

613
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: When I first saw it, I thought like, oh, this

614
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: is an account that's trying to boost representation for women

615
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: in tech. Looking at it again, it's like, no, No,

616
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: this is an account for men. This is an account

617
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: that is trying to be a place where male programmers gather,

618
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: like come for the cheesecake, cleavage shots, stay for my

619
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 1: pithy musings on programming and culture. One commenter on Julia's

620
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: instagram put it really well. They said, I thought this

621
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: group is about programming, but it appears to be a

622
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: group of horny dudes drooling over a girl that always

623
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: pose right next to a laptop, which I thought was

624
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: really funny. So apparently me and that commenter are not

625
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 1: the only ones who are suspicious. In a twenty twenty

626
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: comment that Julia left on Hacker News, she actually spoke

627
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: to the idea of people not thinking that she is real.

628
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: But peep how she twists this around about making it

629
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: a response to a dig about how women can't be programmers,

630
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: not whether or not she exists at all. In her

631
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: comment on Hacker News, she writes as a female developer

632
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: with sixty k followers on Instagram. I went through all

633
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: of this, programmers. Don't look like that. You're fake, some

634
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: dude writes on your content. Are you a model or

635
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: a coder? Bullies are not the happiest people on the planet.

636
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: Some of them have been harassed or bullied by their

637
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: parents in schools, etc. I discovered the hard way when

638
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: I pay back with the hate, it makes me feel

639
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: bad and also feeds their hate the hardest and probably

640
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: why this solution is to respond with love to those

641
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: unhappy folks or not responding at all. It's very hard,

642
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: but it works.

643
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: Now.

644
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: Keep in mind Julia wrote this in a comment on

645
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: another post on hacker News, so that means that Edwards

646
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: is likely like not just posting on Instagram as Julia,

647
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: but also doing interviews and in comments across the internet

648
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: as Julia as well.

649
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: WHOA, this goes deep.

650
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: So I've gone through both Julia's account and Edward's account

651
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: from a very beginning, did a lot of scrolling, and

652
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: here is my theory about what I think is going

653
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: on this is not. This is just my opinion. I

654
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: think that Edwards at some point decided that he wanted

655
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: to be like an online tech influencer and market himself

656
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: on social media as somebody who should be listened to

657
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: when it comes to those kind of conversations that kind

658
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: of goes back to what you were saying, Mike about

659
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: how dev turnity. It seems like a kind of shallow

660
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: representation of a tech conference, right. I think that Edwards

661
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: hoarded for himself that tech persona guy like I see

662
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: it a lot on Twitter since Elon Musk took over

663
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: somebody who was always trying to like maximize their games

664
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: and like gamify success and always giving you like eight

665
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: rules for productivity, eight hacks for this, like things that

666
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: aren't even necessarily about tech always, I think, like a

667
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: general influencer on tech but also life. Like that's what

668
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: I think that he wanted to be, and he or

669
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: he thought like, I need to do this. It'll be

670
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: successful for me if I do this, you know, not

671
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: just about tech, but about what books to read, how

672
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: to think about culture. So in twenty sixteen, Edwards' Instagram

673
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: is pretty normal, right, Like it's pictures of his family,

674
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: pretty normal pictures of himself, pictures of himself with like

675
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: a lightsaber from Star Wars or with a Game of

676
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: Thrones characters. But around twenty eighteen, his pictures sort of change.

677
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: They become a lot more polished and a lot more influencery.

678
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: For lack of a better word, he really is like

679
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: marketing himself as a tech luminary. He's taking pictures of

680
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: the books that he's reading. He's you know, in captions,

681
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: giving life advice about tech and life and leveling up.

682
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: And I think that he must have done this for

683
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: a little bit of time and maybe not seen success

684
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: or growth, and then sometime in twenty eighteen he creates

685
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: Julia's page. Now, the first few pictures on Julia's Instagram account, interestingly,

686
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: don't show Julia's face right. They're just like disembodied body parts,

687
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: like in one at the close up of her cleavage

688
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: holding a book about programming called Elegant Objects up against

689
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: her chest. In another, it's just her feet while she's

690
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: like got a laptop on her lap in some In

691
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: many of them, she is using her hands to obscure

692
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: her face or like has her face down. Honestly, I

693
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: think that Covid was probably like beneficial to these people

694
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: because in a lot of the images post Covid you

695
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: see Julia wearing a face mask, and so I think

696
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, great, we've got a reason to

697
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: not show her face. And so, you know, at first,

698
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how deeply insulting this entire thing

699
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: is to women in tech. You know, this idea that

700
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: says that being a woman in tech means like wearing

701
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 1: a bikini that says GitHub on it and showing off

702
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: your body while there's like a laptop vaguely in the

703
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: background or whatever. But I also want to say that, like,

704
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: not only is it incredibly insulting to women, and it's

705
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: also incredibly insulting to men. I think, like, I think

706
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: that Edwards thinks that men are so horny and stupid

707
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: that they won't even notice that it is not the

708
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: same woman in every picture. Like, they are so stupid

709
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 1: and horny that if you create a fictional version of

710
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: their own fantasy that is just projecting their desires back

711
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: at them, they will be invested and also believe that

712
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: person actually exists.

713
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: So that's a lot of effort. What do you think

714
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 2: is getting out of all of this well.

715
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: First of all, I think this is partially just a

716
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: good old fashioned financial scam. Julia is meant to hype

717
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: up his own conferences and tech entities, right like she

718
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: has deb Trinity in her bio next to a little heart.

719
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: She often wears like Debterrinity shirts and talks about how

720
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: much she loves the conferences. People have to pay as

721
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: much as eight hundred dollars to go to these events

722
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: that Julia hypes up to her one hundred and fifty

723
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: thousand Instagram or one hundred and twenty thousand Instagram followers.

724
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: Edwards also sells master classes, and so I think that

725
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: Julia in some ways is just like having your own

726
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: built in sexy tech influencer to hype up whatever the

727
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: thing is that you're selling, and it's just like a

728
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: straightforward financial grift. But I also think it doesn't stop there,

729
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: because that wouldn't explain the effort that it takes to

730
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: like comment as Julia on Hacker News right, to comment

731
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: in articles as Julia right, because that's a different thing.

732
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: So I also think that there might be like a

733
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: kind of clout that comes with being Julia, this attractive

734
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: woman in technology. You know, I almost would feel differently

735
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: if Edwards was you know, if when he was asked

736
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: to do an interview for a blog about women in tech,

737
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: if he was like, oh, this is just a persona

738
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: like I don't want to take up room. I don't

739
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: want to take away a slot from another an actual

740
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: human woman in tech. But he did those interviews specifically

741
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: about being a woman in tech, and he did them

742
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: as Julia. He could have it would be pretty weird,

743
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: but he could have been like, oh, well, this is

744
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: what I've learned as a man running an account as

745
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: a woman persona in tech, Like, like, there are all

746
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:28,959
Speaker 1: kinds of things he could have done that I feel

747
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: like I would be looking at it a little bit

748
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: less side i e. But he didn't do any of

749
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: those things, And so I think there must be like

750
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 1: an element to this that must be fun, Like it's

751
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: probably fun to see your following and reach grow, like

752
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: I think that he if he was unable to be

753
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: a tech influencer when he's just like some guy, when

754
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: he's a sexy woman. I certainly it's easier to grow

755
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: an audience of programmer men when you're a sexy woman.

756
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: And I think it probably is fun and intoxicating to

757
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: see your following and reach grow. So I think that

758
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: Julia allowed for Edwards to be the tech influencer that

759
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: he never got to be as himself, that he never

760
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: would be as himself because his musings aren't really that novel.

761
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: They're not really that good, right saying. If you're listing

762
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: a list of podcasts for folks to check out, and

763
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: top three is Joe Rogan the most popular podcaster in

764
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: the world, I'm sorry, that's not really novel advice. If

765
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: the books that you're suggesting people read are books like

766
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: Atomic Habits, I'm sorry that book is in every airport

767
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: in the country. These are not novel takes. This is

768
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 1: not novel advice. I think that he's somebody who wanted

769
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: the shine of being a tech luminary, somebody who could

770
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 1: give sage wisdom, that people when he spoke, people would listen.

771
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: But I don't think he had that in him, and

772
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: so I think that doing it as Julia was the

773
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: only way that he could do it and actually make

774
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: an impact, which is actually kind of sad when you

775
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: think about it that way.

776
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: It makes a lot of sense when you say it

777
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: like that. The thing that I just have to keep wondering,

778
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: is what was the bigger thing for him? What was

779
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: the bigger piece of the motivation. Was it the financial

780
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 2: grift and cosplaying Julia was just the way to get

781
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: the following that would allow him to sell tickets to

782
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 2: like make the financial grift work. Or was the bigger

783
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 2: motivation being part of that cool kids club of tech

784
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 2: guys who talk about their agile practices and post changes

785
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: to their website to get hub for some ridiculous reason.

786
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: If I I mean, I will have to ask Edwards.

787
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: I would happily interview him. If he wants to do

788
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 1: the interview, ask Julia, we'll figure that out. But no,

789
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: I think it's gotta be the latter. I think that, like,

790
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: especially in tech, I think that's a current. I think

791
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: getting to feel like you're somebody who people listen to

792
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: it feels good. And I think that it's a space

793
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: where I mean, I think it's a space where people

794
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: were like, when you're a guy, A lot of guys

795
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 1: who are like pretty mediocre rise to that get to

796
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: have those kinds of platforms. I think that he probably

797
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: just saw some of those guys and was like, why

798
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: not me? And so I think it's got to be.

799
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: I think the grift was probably a part of it,

800
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 1: but I think if, in my opinion, not the only part.

801
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, has weird of a

802
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 1: story as this is. I do think it all goes

803
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 1: back to this persistent myth that there are no women

804
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: in tech. It's the myth that I started this podcast

805
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: to bust, you know, Like Edwards was quoted as saying,

806
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 1: the real problem is that there are not enough women

807
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: out there that he could book to speak, and that

808
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: tech conferences are all chasing this very small group of

809
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: women and that's the problem. He said, there have been

810
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: thousands of events chasing the same small subgroup of women

811
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: speakers and not to me really like that reveals to

812
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: me a really just messed up way of understanding and

813
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: thinking about marginalized people and technology. If you, if you

814
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: truly believe that how it works is there's a small

815
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 1: handful of people that go to every conference that's because

816
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: every other are on every stage, and that every conference

817
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: is just like booking those same people. That to me

818
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: signals that like, first of all, you don't really know

819
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: the space, because that's just it makes me laugh. But

820
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: second of all, you don't really care. You don't really

821
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: care about uplifting marginalized voices. You maybe have gleaned that

822
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, you can't have a lineup of

823
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: all white men at a tech conference without somebody saying

824
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: something about it, and so you know that you need

825
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: to not have people saying something about it, But you

826
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 1: don't really care beyond that. And I think it also

827
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,439
Speaker 1: shows to me that he didn't think it was worth

828
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: it to do the real work, like somehow this elaborate

829
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: catfish AI generated scam to him was less work than

830
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: just like widening your network of marginalized people. And honestly,

831
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: it's like other conferences managed to do that work of

832
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 1: lifting up actual marginalized humans who exist in the space

833
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: without inventing fake people, right. Valerie Phoenix, the founder of

834
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: Tech by Choice, which is a group that highlights underestimated

835
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: people in tech, really put it well on Twitter. Valerie says,

836
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: the last few days, I've felt like a slap in

837
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: the face to many of us whose experiences are seen

838
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: as cosplay or engagement. I've dedicated countless hours to running

839
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: Tech by Choice, a nonprofit focused on helping underrepresented groups

840
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: thrive in tech through education, resources and mentorship. It's never

841
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: been about engagement, status or power. It's about making a difference.

842
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: Every Grifter and Catfish story, we push engagement towards overshadows

843
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: marginalized individuals real struggles and victories in tech. And I

844
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 1: guess that's really how I feel like. There are so

845
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: many women and trans folks and non binary folks and

846
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: queer folks and black folks and people of color in

847
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: the space that the and these kind of stunts just

848
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: like further complicate that experience for us even more. This

849
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 1: might be a bit of a tangent, but I did

850
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: want to talk about it because I remember we talked

851
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: about the Grace Hopper conference and how this men showed

852
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: up and like overran this conference that was specifically supposed

853
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: to be a place for women in tech. And one

854
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: of the things that we did not talk about in

855
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: that episode that is absolutely true that actually a listener

856
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: correctly called me out on not raising in that episode,

857
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: is that a climate where men are taking opportunities like

858
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: this away from marginalized people really also hurts gender nonconforming folks,

859
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: trans folks, people who are butcher or mask So it

860
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: creates this climate where people feel like they need to

861
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: be suspicious of these folks when these are the same

862
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: people who should be feeling comfortable and included in these spaces, right,

863
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 1: it creates the conditions where folks feel like even more

864
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: surveiled and watched and sidelined and pushed out of these

865
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: spaces where they really ought to be included. And so

866
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: stunts like this one just make it harder for actual

867
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: marginalized people humans who exist in tech. You know, we

868
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: already have to prove we belong, Prove we aren't fake,

869
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: Prove we are real, prove we're in tech, Prove we

870
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: know what we're doing, and now prove that we exist,

871
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: that we're actually humans. Like I've actually already seen men

872
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: on Twitter saying that this whole catfish thing just proves

873
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: like what happens when people focus too much on diversity.

874
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 1: So this whole debacle of a man doing something bad

875
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: is already being used to further marginalize and punish people

876
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: who are already marginalized in tech. Like it never ends.

877
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: And I think it really is important that like, inclusion

878
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 1: is not something that you do for points or cud

879
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: or to get followers to your bake account, or to

880
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: grift or to avoid getting called out. It really matters.

881
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: Like we've talked about this on across several episodes, it

882
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 1: matters that our spaces where technology is being built include

883
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: as many voices as they can. It matters for all

884
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: of us. And so I think that people like Edwards

885
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: just don't get it right. They just see it as

886
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: this cosmetic thing that you can use to boost your

887
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: own credibility, and that it really hurts. It hurts. It

888
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: hurts that this is how they see us. It really does.

889
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: It also seems like it's not clear what Edwards is

890
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: actually building. So the idea that like you'll build it

891
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,720
Speaker 2: better if you have more diverse viewpoints in the room,

892
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: like you'll end up with a better product, I'm not

893
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: sure he would get that because it's not clear like

894
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: what he has built other than like a scammy conference.

895
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think again it goes back to your

896
00:49:54,840 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: point of using the veneer of like tech bro just

897
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: to build your personal brand, not to build anything real,

898
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: anything that matters. And yeah, I don't like it. I

899
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: don't think it. I don't think it serves us when

900
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: that is seen as a currency. I don't think it

901
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: serves us. So I wanted to end a little bit

902
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: of a where are they now? So Edwards has been

903
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: pretty quiet on Twitter after this whole thing unfolded. His

904
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: last tweets are still his tweets about being canceled, and

905
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: you know his weird explanations from November twenty fifth, the

906
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: Departy conference is canceled. As for Julia, Well, on November seventeenth,

907
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: she hinted that maybe she's re examining her priorities and

908
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: might be spending less time on Instagram on her last

909
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: post on November seventeenth, saying, I started posting less on

910
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,479
Speaker 1: Instagram since my life priorities have shanged significantly, or maybe

911
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: I'm just getting older, So maybe we'll be hearing a

912
00:50:53,640 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: little bit less from Julia on Instagram. Got a story

913
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to

914
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tangody

915
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode

916
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the

917
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 1: Internet was created by me Bridget tod. It's a production

918
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

919
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer Michael Amado

920
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

921
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review.

922
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 3: Us on Apple Podcasts.

923
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

924
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts