WEBVTT - The Turning Point 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.520 This show contains mature content and adult themes. It may 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.439 not be suitable for young audiences. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:07.640 And he's gone on, just go on. 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:09.559 Like that. 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:11.920 It's so fast. 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:17.520 Never ever saw somebody move so quickly from playful drug. 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:18.400 Use to death. 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:25.239 From Variety and iHeart Podcasts, this is Variety Confidential, the 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:30.639 Life and Legend of River Phoenix. I'm Tacchiana Siegel, Executive 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:31.920 editor of Film and. 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:33.040 Media at Variety. 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:38.360 In episode one, we explored River's unconventional childhood and his 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:43.040 swift rise to fame. Today, we delve into pivotal moments 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.000 in rivers life, including his time filming Dogfight and my 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:48.080 own private Idaho. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.839 It's wonderful having a new name every six months. Why 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:53.920 aren't we supposed to question authority? You've taught me that 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.560 she turned ourselves in. It's dangerous for you, and it's 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.600 standers for him. I don't apologey Eda, and I came 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:03.560 all the way back here to take you out to 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.720 dinner and try to make things up to you. 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.680 This is some part of your Dog Fight, I'll kill you. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.360 We begin with Dogfight director Nancy Sivoka, who worked with 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.560 River from May nineteen ninety through July nineteen ninety. She 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:25.000 shares the lessons she learned from their time together and 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:29.400 the potential she saw in him as an aspiring director. Nancy, 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.280 thank you for joining us before we discuss your time 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.640 with River in the early nineties and his death just 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.520 a few years later in nineteen ninety three. I want 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:39.880 to remind listeners how big of a star he was. 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:42.760 He had just come off an Oscar nomination for his 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:47.080 supporting role in that nineteen eighty eight drama Running on Empty. 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:49.920 Do you think that put him in a different category 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:52.600 as an actor at the time, to be that young 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.800 and already have accomplished something that few have. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.800 You know, I was very aware of his filmography, and 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:02.240 I had seen the movies, really liked his work a lot. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.680 I think the fact that he was recognized so young 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.000 was well deserved. Because he came in so young and 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:15.200 so aware of these characters. He had an ability to 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:22.000 assess people in psychology and situations in a very empathetic way. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.880 He really did become them, and I think the fact 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.520 that he was recognized did give him then now we're 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.320 getting to the business side in the industry, absolutely gave 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.200 him a power that I think he used wisely. He 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.560 was very mature for nineteen and I know, you know, 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:41.600 we can get into the abuse of the drugs and 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.520 all that, but I'll start by saying that he was 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:51.760 a very aware and very mature and his hyper sensitivity 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.400 is usually part of what gets people in trouble with 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.040 substance abuse. He was very sensitive to people in situations 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.840 and highly intelligent that way, and which could set you 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:02.200 up for that. 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:05.760 It's a great point because it's like that thing that 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.280 is your greatest asset can also be potentially the thing 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:10.360 that will undermine you. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.120 I think part one of the many things that were 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.960 the positives that then could also undermine is he felt 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:23.480 a great responsibility with his notoriety, his popularity. He was 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.000 very It was very interesting. I remember one day we 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.720 were breaking for lunch and we were on set and 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.280 we had across the street. We were in Seattle filming, 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.480 and we went to his trailer to eat lunch there, 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.000 and as we were crossing a street, the I want 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:43.240 to say, the Norwegian Day Parade, Northern European Day Parade 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.640 of these lovely young ladies, you know, with batons twirling 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.320 and legs kicking, was coming down the street with a 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:52.840 band and all this stuff, and when the young girls 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.440 recognized that it was River Phoenix crossing the street, they 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.560 broke the parade and they ran after him, and it 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.200 was like beatlemania, and they chased them to the trailer 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.000 and we all went inside the trailer giggling. It was like, 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.440 you know, one of those moments. And he didn't just 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:10.960 like sit down there and have lunch to go like 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:12.880 how funny these girls are after me kind of thing. 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.400 He sat with that and he was disturbed by it, 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.200 and he said, I feel bad, like they just the 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.360 whole parade just went to stop, like they were there 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.159 celebrating there, and now they're outside the trailer. Now the 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:28.000 girls are outside the trailer. So I said, well, maybe 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:29.760 you want to you want to just go talk to him, 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.560 you know, thinking he'd signed autographs and stuff. He stepped out. 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.200 Of course, he's signing autographs. But when he was done, 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.200 he said, listen, I want you to get back in 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.600 the parade and finish your celebration because there were a 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.360 lot of people there were waiting for this to happen, 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.960 and you're part of that entertainment and stuff. So he 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.400 always was very aware of being having the responsibility that 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.880 there's an audience waiting for him to do what he 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:59.480 promised to do. And he took that so seriously to 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.120 a point where he might have enjoyed it. But I 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.040 didn't see him enjoy it much. I saw him take 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.800 it very seriously and always like sort of figure out 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.760 how he could make things better through that, Like he 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.160 would talk about kindness to the young girls, or he 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:16.240 would just add stuff to it to help people's lives 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.880 be better. I mean, he was a really complex and 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:20.680 deep young guy. 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:23.960 Take us back to when you first came on board 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:27.920 for Dogfight as a director, and however was already attached 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:32.039 as Eddie Birdlace with that challenging Usually the director gets 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:33.280 to pick the leading actor. 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.719 I read the script soon after the first film I 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.440 did was at Sundance, and I read the script soon 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.560 after that. Peter Newman, who was one of the producers, 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.279 brought it to me, so at that point River was 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.760 not attached. But at that point I wasn't ready to commit. 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.160 I had just had a baby. But I loved the 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.320 story so much, and I was so intrigued by these 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.760 two really opposite people coming together for one night and 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:03.840 how that very simple premise really was intense. So I 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.280 said to Peter, you know, if this is still available, 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.359 I'll be back, you know, please let me know in 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:12.520 a year or so. And that's when they came back 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:16.040 to me with Dogfight and River was attached to it. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.840 And I spoke to the folks at the studio and 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:21.760 they seemed good, and they said, listen, now you have 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:23.880 to speak to River and make sure that he feels 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.760 good about having as a director. And that made a 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:29.040 lot of sense to me because he was on it. 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.400 So we had a phone call that I feel like 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.919 it lasted for a couple of hours, maybe, like you know, 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.640 definitely more than an hour. And he was in Florida 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.200 and I was in the Bronx at that point, and 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.479 we talked a lot about the story. He told me 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.159 why he wanted to do it. He wanted to try 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.760 something different than the films he'd made, the other roles 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.720 he'd had, which were younger characters, And that made a 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:55.040 lot of sense to me for him as an act 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.599 of the fact that he was stretching. He spoke very 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.080 much like a professional actor, did not speak like the 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:03.840 nineteen year old that he was, because he was both. 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.320 And he spoke a lot about how he found it 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:10.880 so challenging, this character, and he was asking me what 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.800 did I make of him, because it was so different 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:15.520 from the way he had been brought up. I mean, 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.280 he had been brought up as a very much bohemian, 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.120 you know, sort of a hippie background, very the opposite 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.800 of conservative. And here was this young man who had 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.720 signed up to be a marine. And I had told 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.240 him that, you know, I grew up with people that 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:33.720 I had signed up to be in the Armed forces, 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:35.760 so I was really familiar with that person. And I said, 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.160 you know, you know, we were talking about people as people, 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.280 but he knew he was going to be in for 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.880 a challenge. And his discomfort, which I know, you know 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.080 a lot of people have spoken about that worked on 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.360 the film or whatever. His discomfort with this character, to 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.960 me was the most beautiful part of the portrayal because 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.880 I think he played a man who was uncomfortable with 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:05.360 the role that he took on that he chose, and 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.360 it was a role that you know, super manufactured. We 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.480 know that today to talk about this stuff as constructions, 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.600 you know, but you know, back in the day, it's 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:15.640 like he was just like, you know, my dad said, 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:17.960 it would make me a man, you know, to join 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.360 the army or the marines, and that's what I'm going 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.920 to do. I got to become a man. And what 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:27.200 it does to him is this constant You get this 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.440 constant feeling that here's someone who's trying to fit into 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:33.720 this the skin that's not his, that he didn't even 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.280 know he maybe shouldn't do. And and it was just 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.000 beautiful to watch that process because I think it's universal 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.880 that often will make a choice in our lives that's 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.600 not right for us, and we keep pushing through it 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.760 because we made the choice. And I think Lily's character 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.880 has her own issues of trying to fit into it, 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.800 her stereotype of who this bohemian chick is, you know, 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.319 and the two of them together kind of honestly, kind 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.720 of being trans parent about showing their discomfort is to 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.480 me what I kind of saw a potential in the story. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:08.400 But when man, when the two of them showed up, 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.440 that was like, literally, I'm getting goosebumps talking about it now. 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.760 It's a it's a privilege to watch people go through 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.439 this process because we usually want to hide that. 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.640 Were you concerned about River pulling off this role, especially 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.120 given that he was coming off a long list of 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.200 roles where he was basically a child. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.520 It's funny because I'd seen his movies and I felt 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.480 like I saw the potential in him. I wasn't concerned. 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.880 I was actually really excited. I felt like, oh my god, 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.720 here's a guy who's who's wanting to take a big 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.200 step in a in a in an unknown place, and 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:46.960 I get to go with him. So I was actually 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.360 very very excited and hopeful that that. You know, I wish, 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:52.040 I hope that he liked me enough that I could 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.080 be a part of it, because that was what was appealing. 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:57.679 What was the first day of filming like. 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:02.280 The first day that I filmed with him. Mind you, 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.079 I had worked with first time actors on my first film, 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.320 so we were all learning together and I thought I 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.320 had a pretty good handle on how to work with actors, 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.600 acting background, from college whatever. We started day one and 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.840 we filmed a scene and that was take one. I 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.199 went over to him and I said, you know, I 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.240 have a little note for you. He says, okay, take two, 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:24.880 and I had the same note because I didn't really 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:26.600 see what he did. So I went over and I'm like, yeah, 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.360 I'm won doing a few could whatever, and he's like, Nancy, 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.680 I did it. And I said, I'm sorry, I didn't see. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:34.959 And I stood behind. I stood right by the camera. 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:36.920 I never stood by a monitor, so I was right 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.400 on top of him, and he goes, I did it. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.640 So I said, I think we did one more take, 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:44.880 and then he said listen. He said, you'll see it 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.560 in Daily's, you know, when you watch the film and 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.520 you'll see that I did it. And when I saw 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.760 the rushes from that day, by golly, he did it. 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.280 And I learned, and I can't explain how it was 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.880 a shift and focus. It was like literally like a 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.280 rack focus. I learned to watch him and to watch 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.000 actors as if my eyes were a camera, which is 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.880 very different from my eyes. And he taught me that. 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.280 And he was nineteen. He knew what the camera was seeing. 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:17.920 He knew how to play to the camera. And it 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.480 may not necessarily have been the way I was looking 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:22.640 at how And then I started saying, oh that's what 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:24.679 the okay, what the camera seeing? What the camera saying? 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:27.240 Where do you think that came from? 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:28.080 With him? 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:29.959 Because that is not something common. 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.160 Again, he was a child actor, he was a child performer. 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:39.560 He was always aware of what his performances he would like. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.439 All I think good child performance is he learned, maybe 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.880 way too young, the impact of what he does to 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:51.080 other people, like how people react to him. So that's 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.000 a good thing to have. I think it's it's a 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:54.880 little healthier as you get older, because at least you 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.280 have a sense of yourself first, and then you get 0:11:57.480 --> 0:11:59.600 a sense of what other people need from you. But 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:01.840 as a child, I think you just go straight to 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.440 what other people need from me, and he always had 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:06.679 that what other people need for me, think, and if 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.680 he felt like he couldn't deliver it, then there would 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.720 be disappointment in himself. What I really appreciate is that 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:16.760 he pulled from himself the awkwardness of the roles that 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.720 don't fit him. And they weren't necessarily the marine role, 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:21.760 but there were other roles that he had that he 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:27.760 didn't feel comfortable with, and he played that awkwardness came through. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.240 What do you think was awkward in his real life 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:32.880 that he was able to pull from. 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:38.600 Well, certainly the notoriety, the feeling responsible because the fans 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:43.400 I had never really seen it that close at that point, 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:47.800 and the way that these young people would literally put 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.640 them their whole psychees in your hands, you know, like 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.400 they were like so in awe of him, and he 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:59.600 need he didn't want that that artifice. He wanted them 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.640 to act to him as a person and then go 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.360 back and be with themselves as people so that they 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.960 don't give them themselves up to something like that. It 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.400 took a lot of I think it was very deep, 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.280 very deep thinking on his part, and he lived it. 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:17.720 He lived it like every day. I mean, he couldn't 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:19.600 go anywhere. He's so recognizable. 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.360 I think people don't even remember that, like or the 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:27.320 people who weren't even alive like he was, what like 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.679 Leonardo DiCaprio was after Titanic. 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.680 It's funny Leonardo DiCaprio reminds me so much of him, 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.200 like that when I saw when I saw Titanic, I 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.360 was like, oh, River could have done that, Like yeah, 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:44.240 there was definitely that kind of It's an attraction that's 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:49.040 so surreal, but inside there's more So that it's not 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:53.400 that you don't stop at the very attractive face because 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.080 there's more going on and so you want to stay 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:00.320 and see more. And they know what to do with 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.360 the camera. River had he had so much When I 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:06.120 worked with him, he had so much more experience than 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.960 I did. Even though he was like whatever, I think, 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.120 eight years younger than me. He had so much more 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.000 space because he'd been acting, and he understood what he 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.120 looked like and what the camera didn't like, and which, 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.160 you know, how he could perform in a way that 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.800 the camera would accept everything that he did and what 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.480 the movement of an eye I did and what the 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.560 movement of a hand did and he understood. You know. 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.600 He was very and he loved the cinematography. I thought 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.120 we talked a lot because he had so many suggestions. 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.040 At one point, I said, hey, River, when are you 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.280 going to direct me? Because it seems like you want 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:40.840 to direct this movie? And we used to joke that way, 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.280 and he was like, no, I want to. I want to, 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.760 he says, but I think I have to go away 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:47.840 to do it because I don't want people to judge 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.520 my early attempts. So again that being in the public 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:56.280 eye did not come naturally to him, and I understood, 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.240 because I can't imagine taking your first baby steps in 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.680 a new art form and then having the whole world 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.680 on top of you judging it. You know, the way 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.360 they judge the thing that you are more experienced than. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.840 Something that you said about him feeling this responsibility, this 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.040 great responsibility. It's echoed with various people we've talked to, 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.800 this idea that he was also the breadwinner of his 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.960 family that also had to have been a tremendous burden 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:25.840 when you're nineteen. 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:28.760 Yeah, and again, it's kind of like the way things 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.240 are set up, right, because you'll get a family that 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.680 to this day where there's kids that have a talent, 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.320 and it's the kids that want to act on that talent. 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.520 They just need to do what they're born needing to 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.880 do this thing, and so the parents will rally around 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.120 in the family. If it's a big family, rallies around, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.160 and one child might sort of, you know, step up 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.800 first and step out first, and then suddenly everything the 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:54.920 dynamics of that family, instead of being you know, mom 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.000 and dad at the top or the adults at the 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.560 top and the children being whatever, it gets flipped just 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.960 by the just by the business, by being in this work, 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.800 and part of it you go, you know, well, he 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:08.880 was born to do this. There was a part of 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:13.280 him that really loved acting. So it wasn't like he 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.320 was in it against his will. I think the other 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.000 things that come in is usually the business, the responsibility 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.480 of the business, and that to me is the part 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:26.520 that is hard for all of us, you know, because 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:31.440 the actual doing the work is play, you know. And 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.400 he probably would have had more resources, although he did 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.440 so well in his roles. But when you're doing that, 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.080 plus you're aware that of the business side, and you've 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.400 got people telling you that you need to do this, 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.880 this and that, and you have to he was aware. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.280 He was aware of it very much. He at one 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.960 point we were having some issues with the studio and 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.320 he said to me, says, Nancy, pick your battles. He 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.360 was not again, I'll remind you he was nineteen, and 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.080 he was telling me, just know how to pick your 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.200 battles so that you can and you know, get what 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.040 you need at the end. But again he was very aware, 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.320 and he was very aware of what were things that 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.040 can sort of you could let slide some creative things 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:10.879 so that you can make sure that the things that 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.760 are the most important. Saying again, lesson for me, because 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.000 I was coming from I had never worked in a studio. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.760 With the first film I did was independent, so there 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.159 was nothing nobody did really that had an answer to 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.679 And this was him teaching me and being very He 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.399 was a very I felt, a very generous teacher with me, 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.480 because he could have been like, oh man, this chick's 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:33.119 just learning, but he was very It was a true 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.240 collaboration because, like I said, he was very interested in filmmaking. 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.199 So we would talk about, you know, looking at the 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:43.240 whole picture of it, where whereas his role as bird 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.080 Lace was the role of Birdlace and he had to 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.080 take care of that. And then you know, we would 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.359 talk about how as a director, if he was doing 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:51.560 this and directing, he would be having to take care 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.760 of his role, but also at the same time at 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.960 looking at the bigger picture and making decisions on the 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.600 bigger picture and thinking about audience, what the audience needs 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.359 in a very different way that he would as an actor. 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:08.000 So and he was fascinated by that, really interested, and 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:09.959 I think he would have directed. 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:12.800 Did you stay in touch with River after the film 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:13.400 was released? 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:19.399 Yeah? Yeah, Actually, he is such a doll. I was 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.840 filming a movie in the summer of ninety two and 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.600 he came I was hugely pregnant at that point with 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.359 my daughter, and River came over and he hugged me, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.040 and he said, I just want to let you know 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.159 that I quit smoking because I was always after him, 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.000 you know, and I was an ex smoker, so I 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:37.399 used to smoke three packs of day. So I'm like, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.320 that's good, River, it's good for your voice, you know. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.520 And when we hugged, and I was really happy to 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.840 hear it. And then, you know, it was a couple 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.600 of months later that I learned that he was doing 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.280 heroin at the time that I said that bastard. He 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.680 said to me he quit smoking and he was doing 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.760 hard drugs, and I was ignorant of that. But he 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.720 was like my kid brother, you know. During this time. 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.880 It was just a very generous kid brother. And when 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.000 my daughter was born, she was born, I think two 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:13.040 weeks before he passed away, he called me and congratulated me. 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:18.560 So it was just yeah, yeah, that was really yeah, 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:19.240 it was cool. 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.760 So to your knowledge, he was not doing drugs during Dogfight. 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:25.200 No, not at all, not at all. And I may 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.959 have gotten the years wrong and maybe he died he 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.679 died in ninety three, didn't correct, So I saw everything 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:33.359 was a year later. So he had seen me on 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.960 the set in ninety two, and when my daughter turned 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.639 a year old, he called me to say happy birthday 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.680 to her because he had also congratulated me on her birth. 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:43.240 So he was that kind of guy. 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:47.520 How did you learn that he was doing heroin? 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.200 I actually I actually learned through people that I knew 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.840 who knew him, And I was really worried because, you know, 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.680 having known other people with heroin addiction, having known a 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.120 lot of people with substance abuse, you know that when 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.560 you're in that when you the darker, the more you 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.680 get into that place, the more that you're the friends 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:08.840 who are trying to get through to you fall fall 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.399 away out of your view, and who comes in to 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.720 fill in the space are people who are just as troubled. 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:20.560 And I've really I worried for him for that. I've 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.480 sadly known that situation too much. And it's it's a 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.520 heartbreak to watch somebody get lost like that because they're 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.160 not going to come out until they're ready to come out, 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.600 and some people are just unfolds. It's luck, whether you 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.399 do or don't, it's nothing that you do. It's just 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:41.880 pure luck. It is pure luck. I know people who 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:45.000