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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in Progress. High

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Speaker 1: wif smarties. Today we are joined by someone who I

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Speaker 1: think is actually one of the smartest people that I know.

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Speaker 1: And that's not hyperbole, that's just a fact. If you

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Speaker 1: are wondering how we got here, meaning this present moment

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Speaker 1: in American and global history, or what the is going

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Speaker 1: on in the world or what we do about it,

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Speaker 1: today's guest is for you. Today we're joined by none

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Speaker 1: other than Robert Reisch. You likely know him from his

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Speaker 1: incredible social media content from Instagram to substack. He is

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Speaker 1: an incredible academic, a professor at Berkeley, one of the

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Speaker 1: most brilliant economists of our time. He has spent his

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Speaker 1: life in public service, serving as the Labor Secretary under

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Speaker 1: Bill Clinton. He is a best selling author, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: a professor, and he is one of the most recognizable

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Speaker 1: voices on inequality in America. And in his newest memoir,

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Speaker 1: Coming Up Short, he's looking back on his life from

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Speaker 1: growing up after World War Two to serving in politics

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Speaker 1: and teaching, and he's reflecting on what his generation got right,

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Speaker 1: where they fell short, and how we can still reclaim

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Speaker 1: a fairer and more democratic America. Whether he is leading

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Speaker 1: a classroom or writing on a page or in a

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Speaker 1: public forum, Robert has spent his lifetime guiding others to

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Speaker 1: see not just what is, but what could be. And

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Speaker 1: that's part of what excites me so much about the

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Speaker 1: fact that I get to call him my friend because

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Speaker 1: he's someone I can ask about what America is, not

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Speaker 1: just in data or policy, but as a story, what

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Speaker 1: our dream could be. And he manages to be so

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Speaker 1: incredibly inspiring and also really sobering about what we're up

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Speaker 1: against and where we can go. So let's dive in

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Speaker 1: with Robert Reich.

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Speaker 2: Sophia.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Robert, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm very good. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm great. I'm just thrilled to see you. I adore you.

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about you a lot, given the craziness

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Speaker 1: of this year, and it certainly makes me realize we're

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Speaker 1: very long overdue for a meal's rite.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you whenever you get to the Bay Area.

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Speaker 2: Where are you are you located.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time at this point, I'm mostly on

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Speaker 1: the East Coast, just outside of New York City, and

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Speaker 1: my family's still on the West Coast. I am out

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Speaker 1: there quite a bit good.

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Speaker 2: Well, I promise you a meal at Saul's Delhi Dau.

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Speaker 1: That's perfect for me.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: One of the nice things about New Jersey is we

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Speaker 1: also have very good delis, so it's nice to be here.

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Speaker 2: We don't is the only deli on the West coast?

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Speaker 2: Now that can't be the case.

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Speaker 1: Well, we've got a few in LA, but that's not

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Speaker 1: really helping you up at Berkeley.

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Speaker 2: No, And as you know, northern California is a completely

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Speaker 2: different state from southern California, so we know we need

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Speaker 2: our deli up here. But back to your point, yes, well,

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Speaker 2: well we'll we'll talk about all this. It's it's much

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Speaker 2: worse than I ever expected it would be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm uh, I'm finding myself constantly on this kind

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Speaker 1: of seesaw between absolute shock and somehow being unsurprised, and

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Speaker 1: it's a weird place to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm probably on the same seesaw as you are.

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Speaker 2: But I think the real one that I keep on

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Speaker 2: going back and forth on is is despair and and

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Speaker 2: anger versus absolute resolution to do something about it and

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Speaker 2: to change it. Yeah, certainly in my lifetime, certainly, which

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Speaker 2: is getting smaller, shorter and.

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Speaker 1: Shorter, no, don't say it. You know, it's it's something

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Speaker 1: I admire so much about you, not only your willingness to,

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Speaker 1: you know, really confront truth in ways that are so

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Speaker 1: deeply factual that you manage to take some of the

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Speaker 1: hysterics out of it. And despite the fact that so

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Speaker 1: much of what you talk to us about is math

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Speaker 1: and data, you manage to make it emotionally resonant. And

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Speaker 1: I've been reflecting on this a lot lately because people

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Speaker 1: have asked me why is this so important to you?

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Speaker 1: You know, why is it so important to you to

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Speaker 1: fight for democracy? You know, fill in the blank whatever

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Speaker 1: question they want to ask, And the only way I

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Speaker 1: know how to respond is to say, I can't not

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Speaker 1: do it. And you strike me as a person who

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Speaker 1: feels that, who can't not do this, who can't not

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Speaker 1: show up for other people? Have you always felt like that?

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Speaker 2: There never seemed to me to be a choice for

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Speaker 2: you when you say can't not. I didn't even go

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Speaker 2: that far. It just seemed to me that I was

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Speaker 2: doing it. It was part of my being. And a

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Speaker 2: lot of people talk about callings, but I think it's

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Speaker 2: it's more profound than that, not only for me, but

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Speaker 2: for I dare say you and most other people who

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Speaker 2: feel strongly that they have got to take action, speak out,

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Speaker 2: speak up, stand up to I mean, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: our country and our society. We're talking about the world.

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Speaker 2: It goes way beyond the United States. We're talking about

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Speaker 2: issues of social justice and the fundamental questions of what

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Speaker 2: we owe one another as members of the same society.

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Speaker 2: These are the most fundamental moral questions that anyone addresses

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Speaker 2: and their personal but they're public at the same time,

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Speaker 2: and we can't not address them. I mean, even if

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Speaker 2: we think we are not addressing them, we are addressing them.

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Speaker 2: By not addressing them, we are making choices, all of us.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, do you think back, because you're you're clearly doing

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Speaker 1: a lot of reflection about your life. You know, I

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Speaker 1: had such a lovely time watching your documentary and I

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Speaker 1: can't wait to dive into it. But it struck me

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Speaker 1: so much the way that you've been thinking about how

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Speaker 1: to communicate with your students, the sort of evolution of

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Speaker 1: what you understand about the young people who walk into

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Speaker 1: your classroom, And I wonder about that reflection not just

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Speaker 1: for them, but for you. If you could, at this

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Speaker 1: stage from this place. You know, say, walk onto the

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Speaker 1: quad on your campus and run into yourself at ten

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Speaker 1: years old or maybe a high school age Robert, do

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Speaker 1: you think you would see yourself in him?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm afraid so. I mean a lot of people

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Speaker 2: I think have the delight and luxury of thinking about

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Speaker 2: themselves when they were ten or fifteen or even twenty

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Speaker 2: and thinking back and saying, well, I've changed a lot.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was a totally different person then. I

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Speaker 2: don't have that luxury. I just look back and I've

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Speaker 2: always been pretty much who I am now. In fact,

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Speaker 2: the startling thing to me is that I look in

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Speaker 2: the mirror and I'm not the person I believe I

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Speaker 2: am now. I think I'm still that you know, young

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Speaker 2: person who I would meet in your metaphor. You know.

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Speaker 2: The arc of one's life is a very difficult thing

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Speaker 2: to describe because we don't fundamentally understand it. We understand

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Speaker 2: that we do have youth, and we do have middle age,

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Speaker 2: we do have old age, and we have another final stage,

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Speaker 2: which I describe in the book as you look great,

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Speaker 2: Because some very old people, when I see them and

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Speaker 2: I say you look great, they say to me, well,

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Speaker 2: that's the last stage of my life. But we don't

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Speaker 2: really understand much about that's great arc, and we certainly

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Speaker 2: don't understand much about the arc when it applies to societies.

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Speaker 2: When we look at what is the arc of America.

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Speaker 2: Henry Luce, Time Magazine's founder, said that the twentieth century

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Speaker 2: was the American century. He said that after World War Two,

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Speaker 2: and I remember that I heard stories. I was very young,

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Speaker 2: but I heard stories my father and my mother and

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Speaker 2: my grandparents talking about going through the Depression and World

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Speaker 2: War II and making the sacrifices they needed to make

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Speaker 2: in order to both survive personally but also to make

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Speaker 2: sure that the values they believed in inside the American

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Speaker 2: culture also survived. But what I get to in the

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Speaker 2: book is the sense that my generation, and perhaps yours

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Speaker 2: and other generations took for granted a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: But my parents and grandparents did not take for granted.

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Speaker 2: They couldn't take for granted. They were confronted with, you know,

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Speaker 2: an economy that really had crashed. They were confronted with

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Speaker 2: Nazi Germany. They were confronted with a world that was

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Speaker 2: threatening the basic tenets of their lives, and so they

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Speaker 2: had to rise to the occasion. We have not had

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Speaker 2: to rise the occasion until yeah, well until now.

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Speaker 1: Why do you suppose it is then that, when we've

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Speaker 1: been met with these moments to rise to an occasion

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Speaker 1: to have our generations freedom bonds and freedom fries and

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Speaker 1: all the things that are supposed to make you really

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Speaker 1: double down on your country. And I mean this in

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Speaker 1: terms of a global health crisis with COVID, in terms

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Speaker 1: of the looming authoritarian threat and now full blown authoritarianism

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Speaker 1: we see with a second Trump term. Why do you

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Speaker 1: think so many people are leaning gleefully into the harm

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Speaker 1: being done around them. Is that a cognitive dissonance or

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Speaker 1: is it this sort of slight detachment from impending doom

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Speaker 1: that makes you think, oh, well, it's happening over there,

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Speaker 1: but not over here, not to me. Why do you

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Speaker 1: think we're not reacting to what should be a rallying

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Speaker 1: cry for the nation as a nation.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people, number one, are in denial. It's

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Speaker 2: easy to be in denial. In fact, it's a comfortable place.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people, even in conversations I have had

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Speaker 2: over the last month or two, they tell me it's

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Speaker 2: not that bad, you're being alarmist. Well, it is that bad.

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Speaker 2: Other people are in total despair. They are feeling that

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Speaker 2: there's nothing they can do. They feel helpless, they feel powerless,

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Speaker 2: they feel alone, demoralized, depressed. I've come into contact with

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Speaker 2: a lot of those people too. But what I often

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Speaker 2: say and certainly believe, is that these two responses to

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Speaker 2: the crisis, we're in denial or despair, are both useless.

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Speaker 2: They are dangerous. It is very important that we understand

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Speaker 2: what's happening, face it directly and clearly, and that we

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Speaker 2: understand our obligation to fight it now. I don't mean

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Speaker 2: in the streets. In fact, I think it would be

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Speaker 2: foolish right now to give Trump ammunition in terms of

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Speaker 2: his attempts to take over American cities and states and

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Speaker 2: trigger the Insurrection Act. But there are countless ways we

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Speaker 2: can fight back, and we should and will fight back

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Speaker 2: and are fighting back. I come in contact with so

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Speaker 2: many people who are doing so many important things. We

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Speaker 2: used to call it in the first Trump administration resistance.

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Speaker 2: I think it's more than resistance. It's now a kind

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Speaker 2: of empowerment that is critical, and we can talk about that.

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything particularly dramatic. It's a frame

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Speaker 2: of mind as much as it is particular actions.

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Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors that I really

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Speaker 1: enjoy and I think you will too. Do you think

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Speaker 1: some of that clarity for you comes from your own

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Speaker 1: personal experience as a kid, And I mean that because

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Speaker 1: you write in your book, you know really beautifully about

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Speaker 1: what it was like to be bullied as a child,

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Speaker 1: and how you actually had wonderful educators that helped you

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Speaker 1: accept yourself, that enabled you to be yourself. And I

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Speaker 1: think about that in terms of mentorship and in terms

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Speaker 1: of the things we passed down, and it sort of

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Speaker 1: feels like you learned as a young person to trust

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Speaker 1: the helpers, and you've become a helper, and it seems

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Speaker 1: to me that you want to empower the rest of

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Speaker 1: us to trust the helpers and be the helpers. Do

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Speaker 1: you think those things are correlated.

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Speaker 2: I think they're very closely connected. Because as a kid,

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Speaker 2: because I was very short still am, I was bullieved,

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Speaker 2: I was harassed, I was teased, and many children are bullied,

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Speaker 2: harassed and teased, but I was in a very extreme

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Speaker 2: way to the where I didn't want to get on

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Speaker 2: the school bus in the morning, and I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to be on the playground, and I didn't want to

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Speaker 2: even go to the boys room because I was felt

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Speaker 2: really seriously endangered. But I also felt shamed. I felt

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Speaker 2: that I was a kind of a lesser human being,

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Speaker 2: if you will, I felt and turned that vulnerability and

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Speaker 2: powerlessness into a kind of self loathing. I think that

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Speaker 2: much of America, not because of Donald Trump, but even

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Speaker 2: before Donald Trump, because of so many decades of bullying

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Speaker 2: by employers, by the system, by insurance companies and landlords,

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Speaker 2: by you name the bully, and I will give you examples.

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Speaker 2: Americans have felt this sense so many of powerlessness, of anger, vulnerability,

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Speaker 2: and to some extent that has turned into shame and

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Speaker 2: an anger, but anger toward themselves. And so when Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump came along in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen and

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Speaker 2: said to Americans, I am your savior, I am you,

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Speaker 2: I will speak for you. I will, in effect, I

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Speaker 2: will be your bully. I will bully the rest of

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Speaker 2: the system for you. That's what people have heard, and

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Speaker 2: obviously it was a fake. He was a stalking horse

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Speaker 2: for the wealthy. He gave them a gigantic tax cut.

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Speaker 2: He's given them another gigantic tax cut. He wants to

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Speaker 2: protect wealth, he wants to amass his own wealth. He

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Speaker 2: is not a tribune of the people. He's a tribune

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Speaker 2: of the billionaires. But nevertheless, he talks as if he

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Speaker 2: represents average people who are being bullied. And when he talks,

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Speaker 2: he has this swagger, this anger, this ridicule, this kind

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Speaker 2: of attitude that a lot of people in America also have.

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Speaker 2: And I think that it's not because of Donald Trump alone.

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Speaker 2: It's because he has legitimized their decades, in decades and decades,

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Speaker 2: feelings of powerlessness, of self blame. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: where his power comes from. And that's why I've said,

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Speaker 2: and I've said this for years, that if Democrats want

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Speaker 2: to be relevant, if Democrats want to be a party

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Speaker 2: that is still important to average working people into much

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Speaker 2: of the country, they have got to stop worrying about

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Speaker 2: the suburban swing votes and stop worrying about big corporation

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Speaker 2: and wealthy people who might donate to the Democratic Party,

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Speaker 2: but instead change entirely their approach and really be truly

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Speaker 2: the tribunes of the people.

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Speaker 1: How does that go over?

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Speaker 2: Well, it hasn't. I haven't. I haven't swayed too many

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Speaker 2: people yet. But Sophia, I think that it is inevitable

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Speaker 2: this bully in the White House named Donald Trump will

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Speaker 2: go the way of all bullies. I mean, all bullies

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Speaker 2: historically end up in the dust heap of history. I

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Speaker 2: can't tell you exactly how he's going to end and

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Speaker 2: how much so called collateral damage there will be on

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Speaker 2: the way, and I worry about that a lot. But

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Speaker 2: undoubtedly he and his reign and his bullying will end.

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Speaker 2: But the way you deal and this is what I

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Speaker 2: learned on the high school or school it wasn't even

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Speaker 2: high school, on the grade school, playground, kindergarten, the way

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Speaker 2: you deal with bullies is you can't try to appease them.

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Speaker 2: You can't try to humor them, you can't give in

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Speaker 2: to them. You've got to stick stand up to them.

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Speaker 2: And you've got to use and bring and unite with

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Speaker 2: other people to stand up to them. An individual college president,

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Speaker 2: for example, cannot hope, even if it's Harvard University, can't

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Speaker 2: hope to deal with the bully of Trump alone. You know,

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Speaker 2: you need all of the universities working together. A single

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Speaker 2: law firm. I can't hope to deal with the bully alone.

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Speaker 2: All the law firms have to work together the same

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Speaker 2: as the media companies and the museums and libraries. And

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Speaker 2: we have to approach this as if he is trying

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Speaker 2: to bully all of us simultaneously, and he is. He is,

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Speaker 2: of course he is, and present a united front. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's not you know, Chicago versus Washington, versus versus Oakland, California,

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Speaker 2: or Baltimore when he sends in troops. It's all of us.

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Speaker 2: All of us need to create a united front.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think so many corporations, law firms, newsrooms,

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Speaker 1: Why are people bending a nee to this man? Because

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Speaker 1: what he's doing is clearly and plainly illegal. It's unconstitutional,

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Speaker 1: it's outside of the purview of power of the president

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Speaker 1: in the first place. And yet he's making us pay

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Speaker 1: for his golf trips. He's made almost four billion dollars

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Speaker 1: since he took office. Again, he's more than doubled his

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Speaker 1: personal fortune, and everyone's kind of going, well, that's Trump, Like,

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Speaker 1: how is this happening?

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Speaker 2: I think partly if you're talking about the private sector,

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Speaker 2: that is, take for example, Amazon, Jeff Bezos has a

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Speaker 2: lot of businesses and he is I won't call him greedy.

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Speaker 2: I mean all people who are in business want to

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Speaker 2: make as much money as they possibly can. It's the

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Speaker 2: nature of capitalism, I suppose. And Jeff by Bezos is

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Speaker 2: therefore going to tell the Washington Post editorial page you

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Speaker 2: will not criticize Donald Trump. I don't want you to

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Speaker 2: editorially endorse Pamla Harris. I want you to do nothing

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Speaker 2: that's going to antagonize this man, because this man could

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Speaker 2: make very make things very hard for me as a

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Speaker 2: business person. The same goes with CBS. I mean CBS

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Speaker 2: as a profit making corporation and its owner than paramount,

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Speaker 2: did not want to do anything to in any way

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Speaker 2: antagonize the bully. Wherever you look in the private sector, greed,

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Speaker 2: greed takes precedence over principle, and that's I don't think new.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the way the private sector capitalism works.

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Speaker 2: It's the public sector, or the not for profit sector

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Speaker 2: that I think is the surprise. When university how to Trump,

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Speaker 2: When Columbia University says, okay, we'll give you whatever you want.

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Speaker 2: When Harvard is now in the process of making a deal,

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Speaker 2: or any other university, why don't the universities work together?

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Speaker 2: Why do they feel that they can get away with

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Speaker 2: an individual deal. I think, Sophia, it's partly because they

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Speaker 2: are all in competition with one another for students, for money,

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Speaker 2: for prestige, for faculty. They don't know what it means

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Speaker 2: to collaborate against. I kind of believe.

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Speaker 1: How do you make sense of our economics stories, the

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Speaker 1: pr machine that makes us think, oh, everyone's this greedy

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Speaker 1: and if I'm lucky, I'll get into the greed class

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Speaker 1: and then screw everybody else, Like we know that so

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Speaker 1: much of what the ultra wealthy tell us about this

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Speaker 1: is the way it is isn't true. It's a story.

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Speaker 1: It's a result of policy. It's a result, as you said,

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Speaker 1: of the second over one trillion dollar tax cut that

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Speaker 1: Trump has given to the wealthiest people in the world,

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Speaker 1: again at the expense of rural hospitals, public transportation, safety

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Speaker 1: nets for our communities. So, as a professor, as a

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Speaker 1: brilliant academic and an economic mind, how do you help

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Speaker 1: people make sense of the math and not get so

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Speaker 1: bored because it's math that they stop listening. How do

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Speaker 1: you do what you do well?

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Speaker 2: You deal with power. You don't talk about math. You

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Speaker 2: talk about who has the power to do what and

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Speaker 2: what has happened in the United States is a very

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Speaker 2: simple story in one way, and that story starts in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one when a lawyer in Richmond, Virginia named Powell,

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Speaker 2: not your own Powell, this is a Powell who became

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Speaker 2: a Supreme Court justice. This particular Powell was asked by

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Speaker 2: the United States Chamber of Commerce to come up with

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Speaker 2: a memo telling American business what they should do to

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Speaker 2: fight off what at that time seemed like a tsunami

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Speaker 2: of special interests, environmentalists, neighbor organizations, nader Nator's raiders, consumer groups,

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Speaker 2: all claiming that American corporations, big corporations, were nefarious, that

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Speaker 2: the were doing bad things. And what Lewis Powell did

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy nine with that seventy one, with that memo,

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Speaker 2: very very important document, is he told American business that

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Speaker 2: they should pour a lot of money into American politics

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Speaker 2: and into public relations. That is, they should have trade

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Speaker 2: associations in Washington. They would tell America a story, a

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Speaker 2: fabricated story actually, about how the kinds of things that

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Speaker 2: you and I think are necessary, the kinds of dividends

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Speaker 2: that Americans should get out of their tax payments, what

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Speaker 2: we owe each other as members of the same society.

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Speaker 2: How all of that was hokum. All of that was inefficient,

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Speaker 2: It was dangerous. It would undermine the se news of America.

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Speaker 2: They called it, yes, socialism or communist, they had a

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Speaker 2: lot of words for it, but fundamentally they were scared

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Speaker 2: of it. Fundamentally they did not want the public to speak.

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Speaker 2: They did not want big corporations to have to respond

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Speaker 2: to workers and communities and the environment. And so that

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Speaker 2: was the beginning. I saw it, Sophia. I was working

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Speaker 2: at government in the late seventies and then again in

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Speaker 2: the eighties, and then with Secretary of Labor in the

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Speaker 2: nineties and help Barack Obama in the early part of

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Speaker 2: this century. I saw it. It was there, I saw

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Speaker 2: the money flowing in. This is about power. It's about money.

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Speaker 2: It's not about mathematics. It's not about economic formulae. It's

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Speaker 2: not something that eyes should glaze over over. This is reality.

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Speaker 2: This is about big corporations and some extraordinarily wealthy people

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Speaker 2: who became far wealthier, far more power powerful. Big corporations

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Speaker 2: become far far bigger, monopolizing entire industries. And today what

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Speaker 2: do we have. We have more tax cuts for the wealthy,

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Speaker 2: more tax cuts for big corporations, fewer regulations we have.

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Speaker 2: Climate change is threatening the entire world that we are

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Speaker 2: living with, and we have somebody in the White House

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Speaker 2: who is as close to a tyrant as we have come. Well,

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Speaker 2: I say the story begins in nineteen seventy one.

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Speaker 1: And now for our sponsors. Interesting too, that that story,

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Speaker 1: that timeline where everyone was so threatened to your point

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Speaker 1: by labor unions. I was like termind people. My listeners

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Speaker 1: know this. But for anyone who might be new to

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Speaker 1: the show, thanks to your presence on it, I can

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Speaker 1: only go to the doctor because I'm in a union.

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Speaker 1: You know, everybody assumes you work on TV, you work

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Speaker 1: in Hollywood. Everyone's just like swimming and pools of money,

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Speaker 1: like Scrooge McDuck. That ain't it. I have health care

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Speaker 1: because I am a member of the Screen Actors Guild union.

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Speaker 1: I know what the power of collective bargaining is for people.

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Speaker 1: I know what it meant to my grandfather. I know

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Speaker 1: why my dad chose to immigrate to America to start

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Speaker 1: a business here because of what was possible and this

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Speaker 1: shift toward lobbying and more dominant control to your point,

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Speaker 1: corporations wanting to gobble up other corporations and become these

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Speaker 1: you know, monopolies, megaopolies. It's not lost on me that

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Speaker 1: it was happening in such a moment societally of progressive

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Speaker 1: social power. You know, we had come through the civil

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Speaker 1: rights movement, not to say by any means we had

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Speaker 1: racial justice equity, but we were having national conversations. People

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Speaker 1: couldn't unsee what they'd seen, the photographs from the Freedom Rides,

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Speaker 1: the death of doctor King. It was undeniable. Women were

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Speaker 1: building power. We were on the precipice of Roe becoming

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Speaker 1: the settled law of the land, which you know, to

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Speaker 1: reference the top lying tyrant in the White House. He

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Speaker 1: also put lying tyrants on the Supreme Court, who said

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Speaker 1: they'd honored settled law and then overturned it. So apparently

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Speaker 1: we can't trust any of our institutions anymore. I feel

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Speaker 1: the emotional reality of all that data, and I was

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Speaker 1: just I was so tickled watching the doc and for

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Speaker 1: our friends at home, the most gorgeous documentary about Professor

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Speaker 1: Reich is called The Last Class Is. It is so

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Speaker 1: beautiful about your final semester teaching. Also, it makes me

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Speaker 1: want to sob because I'd always planned on coming and

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Speaker 1: taking your class, and life has just been busy and

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Speaker 1: here we are, so we might have to do it

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Speaker 1: on zoom. We'll talk about it later, but you talk

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Speaker 1: in it. You literally say about the graphs. On day

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Speaker 1: one of the class.

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Speaker 2: You go.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're not reacting to the graphs the way

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Speaker 1: I do. They don't love the graphs the way I do.

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Speaker 1: We have to reach their emotions, to reach their minds.

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Speaker 1: And you start to talk about how you're going to

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Speaker 1: communicate the emotional reality of data, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is why he's my brain person. How did you

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Speaker 1: come to understand this grander concept? Because you are a

432
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: walking encyclopedia of days and times and facts and math

433
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: and all the numbers and all the things that I

434
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: just wish we could shake everyone in the world and

435
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: say this is what you should be focusing on. But

436
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: you figured out, as you said, how to talk about power,

437
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: to communicate the math, how to talk about justice, to

438
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: communicate about policy. How did you come to this theory?

439
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: And when did you have your aha moment of Oh,

440
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: there is an emotional reality of data, and if I

441
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: can give it to my students, they will be inspired

442
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: to change the world.

443
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: Sophia. I think it happened when Mickey Schwarner, Michael Schwarner,

444
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: who was about five or six years older than me,

445
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: I had asked him one summer to be a kind

446
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: of lookout for me, protector of me from the bullies.

447
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: When he was in nineteen sixty four registering voters in

448
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: Mississippi along with two other civil rights workers, and he

449
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: was murdered by the Ku Klux Klan. When I found

450
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: out that my protector from the bullies had been murdered

451
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: by the real bullies of America, something changed in me.

452
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: I saw that emotional connection you're talking about between the

453
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: abstract theories and facts and data and the reality of

454
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: how we treat one another or don't, or how we

455
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: brutalize one another. And I began seeing bullying and brutalization

456
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: all over, and brutalizing women, white people, brutalizing black people,

457
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 2: employers brutalizing workers. I began to see that power and

458
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: how people exercise power, and how people with power abuse

459
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: their power. If they did, some people don't, but if

460
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: they did have power, how they abused their power in

461
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 2: order to hurt others. I saw it all over and

462
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: it seemed to me that the central struggle of civilization,

463
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: the central struggle of creating a social order that was admirable,

464
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: was to constrain the bullies. And when I when I teach,

465
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: or when I write, or when I do movies or

466
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: whatever you're talking about, I think that that moral center

467
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: has got to be front and center, because that's what

468
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 2: people respond to. Everybody knows it. Everybody has had some experiences.

469
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: I mean, whether it's parents or friends or lovers or uh,

470
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: you know, some some some brutalization that they felt in

471
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: their past. They know it, they feel it. And so

472
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: if you can connect with that, that is where their

473
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: understanding of social justice actually comes from. That's where you build,

474
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: That's where you connect.

475
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 1: Mmm. That's beautiful, And do you feel like that is

476
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 1: the key to helping to undo the skepticism, helping to

477
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: undo this wildly aggressive version of partisanship. It seems to me,

478
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, watching, for example, the GOP today suddenly not

479
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: care at all about big government or government overreach, or

480
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, the militarization of the the armed forces against

481
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: our own people. You know, all the things that they

482
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: that they claim they're creating militias to fight. It's a

483
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: cult mentality. Because Trump is doing it, it's okay, But

484
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: if anybody did, anybody from the other side, even spoke

485
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: about it, it would be, you know, high crimes. Do

486
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: you think that that that willingness to interrogate the way

487
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: we treat each other and how we define power, whether

488
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: it is brutal or it is righteous, is a way

489
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: to undo skepticism? Do you think it gets above the

490
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: noise of the donkey or the elephant and gets to

491
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: something more human that can make people listen to each

492
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: other a little bit better?

493
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: Well, the donkey versus the elephant, the left versus the right,

494
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: the Democrats versus Republicans, all that is historical. It's no

495
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: longer part of our present. It's no longer relevant. The

496
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: Republican Party is not a Republican party. It is as

497
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 2: you say, it is a cult. It is a religion.

498
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: It is an angry, bitter religion. It comes out of

499
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 2: people's sense of again being brutalized for years and years

500
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: and years by a system that didn't listen to them

501
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: or care about them. And it still is that way.

502
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: And the Democratic Party lost its bearings. I mean, I

503
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 2: am old enough to remember the legacy of Franklin D.

504
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: Roosevelt and a Democratic Party that was built on labor

505
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: and farmers and really the people who were at the

506
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: grassroots working very hard. But the Democratic Party by the

507
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties, by the beginning of the century, was a

508
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: party that was more and more dependent on money, big money,

509
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: big corporate money, money from very affluent people, not willing

510
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: therefore to bite the hands that feed them. Now, the

511
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: question you asked is really the central question to me,

512
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: and that is, how do we get people who have

513
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: been brutalized, who have been bullied, and who are in

514
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 2: either denial or despair or just pure anchor whether they

515
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: call themselves Democrats or Republicans, whoever they are, whatever they

516
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: call themselves, how do we get them to understand what

517
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: is happening right now under their noses, that this regime

518
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: in Washington is really funneling, channeling their money, their investments,

519
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: their tax dollars, everything they had worked for into the

520
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 2: pockets of billionaires who have never been as rich as

521
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: they are today and taking away their liberties, that is,

522
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: the liberties of average people and the freedoms of average people.

523
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: And how do we convince people that this is not

524
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: a matter of white male Christian nationalism, but it's a

525
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: matter of average working people joining together to enjoy the

526
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: fruits of their labors, yes, and their investments in our society,

527
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: in democracy. It's about a moral understanding of what is happening.

528
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute after a

529
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: few words from our favorite sponsors. The fact that no

530
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: matter what side of the aisle you're on, if you

531
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: don't raise forty thousand dollars a day, you lose your

532
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: Senate seat. Like, who's going to succeed in this system?

533
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: That's bad for our vision. It's almost like we've created

534
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: a society where no matter what level you get to,

535
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: you're still in scarcity. Like the fact that Jeff Bezos

536
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: doesn't think he has enough money. I'm like, bro, how

537
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: many yachts do you need? How many pools need to

538
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: be at your property? Can you be in more than

539
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: one at once? Like, I don't even know what we're

540
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: talking about anymore. It seems crazy.

541
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 2: It seems crazy, and often we don't know what we're

542
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: talking about. Yeah, you're saying, Sophia, that there is a

543
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 2: kind of common sense morality here.

544
00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: I would hope.

545
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: Should be able to take sick kids to a doctor.

546
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: That people ought to be able to go take their

547
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: kids to a park without worrying that the kids are

548
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: going to be shot. And I'll let me add to

549
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 2: that that if somebody is working full time, they should

550
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: not be in poverty. They should be earning enough to

551
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: lift their family out of poverty. Then everybody who wants

552
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: to work and is able to work full time should

553
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 2: be able to get a job that pays enough. I mean,

554
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: these are not the kinds of high theoretical, mathematical, economic

555
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: complicated issues. These are again, moral questions. And most people

556
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: in this country would agree with you and agree with

557
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: me about this common sense morality we're talking about. So

558
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: who doesn't, Well, I think there are people who are

559
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: so injured and angry that they are willing to follow

560
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: a strong man named Donald Trump and the regime that

561
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 2: he's created around him into a different kind of society. Now,

562
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: the road we were on was a dangerous road. It

563
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 2: was getting worse all the time, more and more money

564
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: in politics, wider and wider inequality, greater and greater power

565
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: in the hands of fewer and fewer people, Corporations, monopolizing

566
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: our economy. I mean, we could not have sustained on

567
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: that path if Donald Trump had not come along. Somebody

568
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: else would have come along. Our bad fortune was that

569
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 2: it was somebody like Trump. But maybe the silver lining

570
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: on this terrible dark cloud is that we are being

571
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: shaken up so much that we see that the common

572
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: sense morality you and I are talking about really is

573
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 2: the key to the future. That we can get people together.

574
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 2: We can join with people who are maybe in many

575
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 2: ways don't agree with everything that we're saying, but on

576
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: this these basic principles, everybody can agree.

577
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: Yes, getting back to a little more of a live

578
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: and let live. You know, if every human, let's say,

579
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: had five most important points to them, they can be

580
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: different across a spectrum, but we have to be willing

581
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: to defend each other's right to pick our five. And

582
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: that that feels like we've lost we've lost some of

583
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: that in the weeds. To me, we forget, you know,

584
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: what our inalienable rights are meant to be. We forget

585
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: what our constitution says. I'm really curious how you think

586
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: about that going forward, because clearly we were in the

587
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: weeds on this. We all kind of wish we could

588
00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: shake the nation, But how do you see us organizing out?

589
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: What are the things you would say to people at

590
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: home feeling paralyzed by despair or overwhelm Are there organizations

591
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: you think are doing a particularly great job. Are there

592
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: things that are useful locally, no matter where a person lives,

593
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: that they could go out and do this weekend or

594
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: next Monday and kind of get in the trenches with

595
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: their neighbors. Where do you point people.

596
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 2: In a moment like this, Well, I say, first of all,

597
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: that any action, any action that is guided by the

598
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 2: kind of common sense morality we were talking about, and

599
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 2: a love of the country and a sense of duty

600
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: to each other, that is at this point in history

601
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 2: critically important. It's the people that don't take the action

602
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 2: that have to be reached. They have to be told

603
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: that denial, or their sense of despair, or their refusal

604
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: to acknowledge what's happening all of them is very dangerous.

605
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 2: So what do you do? Well, I say to people,

606
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 2: what can you do? Some people say to me, well,

607
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: I could call my representatives in Washington and my senators.

608
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: I say, do it, and then they say back, But

609
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 2: it's not going to make any difference. I say, look,

610
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: I was on Capitol Hill. I know how the system works.

611
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: They keep track of how many calls come in, especially

612
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 2: from their constituents, and what the constituents are saying. Don't

613
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 2: think you're powerless in that respect. Or somebody else will

614
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 2: say to me, well, I would really like to boycott

615
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 2: Tesla or or another another company that's that I really

616
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 2: think is cooperating too much with Trump. And then I say, well,

617
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 2: but they say, but my boycott is not going to

618
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: make any difference because nobody else is doing it. I say,

619
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: it can make a difference. You don't understand how much

620
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: these companies spend on their brand images. If you can

621
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: just make a real fuss good trouble, as John Lewis

622
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: used to say, then you can have a big, big influence.

623
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: Other people, I say, who are very concerned about what's

624
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: happening to their neighbors who happen to be undocumented, who

625
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 2: have been working in their communities for years, I say, well,

626
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:25,959
Speaker 2: why don't you start a community that is going to

627
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 2: help protect those people from ICE agents? So that you

628
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: broadcast to this community where the ICE agents are, what

629
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 2: they're doing, who they're going after, You take pictures, you

630
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 2: take videos of what they are doing. You make sure

631
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: the news organizations have that information. We could go on

632
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 2: and on and on, Sophia. It's not so much what

633
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 2: people do. It doesn't have to be grand, it doesn't

634
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 2: have to be running for president. Yeah, but it can

635
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: be so many small things that they add up to

636
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: something very big. And the good news is that it's happening.

637
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: So many people are taking these kinds of actions, they're

638
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: joining with others. Indivisible is a wonderful organization because visill

639
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 2: has chapters all over the country. Just a few days ago,

640
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 2: I was in Houston, Texas, UH talking to many people

641
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: who really don't want Texas to redistrict and feel like

642
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: it's a it's a terrible assault on system. And we

643
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: talked about what they can do and how they do it,

644
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: and and they're they're activists. This country based on activism.

645
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: We do not bow to a dictator.

646
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: Yes, no kings, no kings. I am really curious. You

647
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: know you you referenced her. You're a bit of your history,

648
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: which I don't want to make you tell the story

649
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: of because you've done it before. And you know, folks

650
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: have amazing books and a doc they get to watch

651
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: about it. But I do wonder, through all the governments

652
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: you've been a part of in this country, the administrations,

653
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: you know, sitting as our Secretary of Labor, all these

654
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: things you've done, is there a moment or a memory

655
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: that you hold on to, something that absolutely multiplied your

656
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: love for this country, something that made you really understand

657
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 1: viscerally the power of our labor force. Like I want

658
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: to know what that thing is that that lit the

659
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: inextinguishable flame of Robert Reich.

660
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 2: Oh, well, it's very hard to tell you, but if

661
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 2: you want to know a particular instance that is emblazoned

662
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: in my mind. There was a time in nineteen ninety

663
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 2: six Republicans had taken over both houses of Congress. Everybody

664
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 2: I knew was demoralized and felt nothing could happen. And

665
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 2: I said to the President, Bill Clinton, why don't we

666
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: try to raise the minimum wage? And he thought it

667
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 2: was the worst time to try and do it, because

668
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: Republicans were in control of everything. But I told him

669
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: that I thought, and this goes back to our common

670
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 2: sense morality, that the public wanted the minimum wage raised.

671
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 2: It seemed like the fair and necessary thing to do.

672
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: It turned out that that was true. The polls showed

673
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 2: that ninety well maybe eighty five, eighty six percent of

674
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: the public was in favor of a minimum wage increase.

675
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 2: I went around to all of the offices on the hill,

676
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: the Democrats and Republicans told them, showed them the polls

677
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 2: talked of the minimum wage, and Sophia, we got a

678
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 2: minimum wage increase the first time in many years. And

679
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 2: I came back that afternoon from being on the hill

680
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: and counting noses and trying to twist arms and getting

681
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 2: pushing the thing right over the finish line, I came

682
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: back to the Labor Department. The Labor Department is a big,

683
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: big building on Constitution Avenue. It has on its first

684
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: floor a big atrium, a kind of big opening. I

685
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: came in the front doors, and there were hundreds and

686
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of Labor Department employees, many of them

687
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: career people, who all applauded and cheered, and my eyes

688
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: welled up because we all understood how important a minimum

689
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 2: wage increase was. You know, something in the order of

690
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 2: forty or fifty million people at that moment, at that day.

691
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: Because of what happened that day, we're getting a wage increase. Now.

692
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 2: It wasn't the be all and end all. It was

693
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 2: just really in compared to everything that's needed. It was

694
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 2: a very small event, but it felt like progress. It

695
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 2: felt good, it felt important.

696
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute. But here's

697
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. Even when something doesn't feel

698
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: like perhaps enough, it can still be profound to move

699
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,959
Speaker 1: a needle in a country this big. It's a big deal,

700
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: and you guys did it, and you did it to

701
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: your point at a time where people didn't think it

702
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: could be done. And so that's a wonderful spark to

703
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: carry well.

704
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: Any small victory we need to celebrate in life. I

705
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: don't mean only in but any small victory we need

706
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: to we need to put into a special little box

707
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 2: in our minds, in our brains and our bodies. We

708
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: need to be able to go back to that box

709
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 2: when we're feeling down and feeling discouraged and bring out

710
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: those victories and know that those victories are possible. We've

711
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: experienced them. They may not be huge, they may not

712
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: change the direction of the world, but they are vitally important.

713
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: And I think that just as all of us or

714
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 2: most of us have been brutalized in some way, or

715
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 2: bullied in some way, or felt vulnerable and powerless in

716
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 2: some way. Most of us also have had these tiny

717
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: victories that give us a sense of power. And in

718
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: times such as we are now in when everything seems

719
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: very dark and it is when you have people in

720
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 2: power who are dangerous, who are authoritarians or worse neo fascists,

721
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 2: when people are stressed because of it and feel terrible

722
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 2: and feel that the world is coming apart, I think

723
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: is very important for us to feel instead our strengths

724
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: and feel our power and join together with others and

725
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 2: make that power a reality.

726
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: What do you think of America's legacy and how are

727
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: you thinking about your own legacy as you're ready to

728
00:51:54,120 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: hang up your teaching hat and continue on wearing your leadership.

729
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 2: Well, you use a word leadership, I think that that

730
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 2: is a very important idea to dwell on. What is leadership?

731
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 2: Do you have to do you have to have an

732
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 2: an office? Do you have to hold public elected office

733
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 2: to be a leader? Do you have to be an

734
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: appointed office to be a leader? No? Martin Luther King

735
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: Junior was a leader. Some of the most important leaders

736
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: in our society or in any society. Mahatma Gandhi never

737
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 2: held elective office. They were leaders because they helped. Instead,

738
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 2: going back to many of the points we've been talking about,

739
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 2: help people focus their energies and attention on a problem

740
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 2: that needed to be addressed, a problem that they all face.

741
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 2: They help people see that the work avoidance mechanisms, denial

742
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: and despair and scapegoating and everything else we're getting in

743
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 2: the way the real leaders, the real leaders, are people

744
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: who teach the power that people have and the responsibility

745
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 2: people have. Now I don't know my legacy. I'm never

746
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: going to stop writing or doing whatever I can to

747
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 2: help people understand their own power and responsibility and duty

748
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:44,879
Speaker 2: to each other. But I think that this country, over

749
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: the long term will be fine. I think that we've

750
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 2: had crises. You think of the Civil War, think of

751
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 2: the Great Depression, the Two World Wars. The country has

752
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 2: had stresses. When I was a boy, I remember Joe

753
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 2: McCarthy and his communist witch hunts. We have not always

754
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 2: done the right thing. I'm ashamed of some of the

755
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 2: aspects of American history, but I think there is a again,

756
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 2: a common sense morality, a really basic goodness in America.

757
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 2: When I go around the country and I talk to people,

758
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 2: even people who say that they are Trump supporters, we

759
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: start talking about their own lives and their children, and

760
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: their communities and what they care about, and get away

761
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 2: from the labels, get away from the Trump stuff, And

762
00:54:54,000 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 2: there's a certain decency and fairness that is the I

763
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 2: can't tell you exactly why, but I think that it

764
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 2: is inherent, and I like to think that that will

765
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: continue and maybe be stronger in the future.

766
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 1: I hope. So, I hope that what seems to be

767
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: coming a part allows us really to build something new together.

768
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 2: Well, we will, we will, Sophia, we will.

769
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: I sure hope.

770
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: So I'm absolutely sure of this. Again, I want to

771
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 2: stress this darkness may be important in terms of reminding

772
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 2: us of what we hold dear and sacred. Yeah, twenty

773
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,839
Speaker 2: years ago, when you talked about the rule of law,

774
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 2: eyes would glaze over. Nobody knew what the rule of

775
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 2: law was, or due process or democracy or redistricting or

776
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: anything that people now have a fairly sophisticated rip on. Right,

777
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: here's twenty years ago. There was a kind of we

778
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 2: took everything for granted. Yeah, we won't take it for

779
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 2: granted now.

780
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: That's really well said. I think sometimes the problem with

781
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: incredible progress is that we forget where we were before

782
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: it happened exactly when you bring it in, you know,

783
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,760
Speaker 1: into your lovely office that I find you in today,

784
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: and into your interior life, both in self and in

785
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:43,240
Speaker 1: your home at this moment, because I know you focus

786
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: on the outside world so much, you give so much.

787
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: But for you, what feels like your work in progress

788
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 1: as you look at the year and the time ahead.

789
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think that the issue for me inside is

790
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 2: twofold challenge. One is to bring my life into balance.

791
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 2: That is, I'm a workaholic, as I suspect you are, yep,

792
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 2: and us or we workaholics, we have got to work

793
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 2: very hard on understanding that if we are not in balanced,

794
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: if we don't balance our work with joy and play

795
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 2: and love, we we can't be as effective even as workaholics,

796
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: and we lose something very precious from our lives. The

797
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 2: other piece of that, and it goes along with that,

798
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: is you know, I've never been very good at finding joy.

799
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 2: Maybe it goes along with workaholism. Maybe it goes with

800
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: you know, being a child who is bullied a great deal.

801
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:03,959
Speaker 2: Maybe it goes along with my parents and grandparents who

802
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: who remembered not only war and depression, but also anti Semitism,

803
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 2: and so there was very little room for true joy

804
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 2: in my life. And as I get on in years,

805
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 2: I say to myself, well, the two big projects, Bob,

806
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 2: are trying to find balance in your life, trying to

807
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 2: constrain your worlcoholism, and trying to really find joy. How

808
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 2: about you, Sophia.

809
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm right there with you. Really. Only in the last

810
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: few years have I begun to say, oh, I also

811
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: deserve joy. If I want joy for the people I love,

812
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: I should also want it for myself.

813
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 2: Deserve deserve joy. Yes, it's a wonderful, wonderful.

814
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: Yes, we all deserve joy, We really do. And I

815
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 1: think I think there's something tremendously important about giving that

816
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: that worth to yourself, especially if you grew up a

817
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: bullied kid, which I know you and I both did.

818
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: As signing worth to self I think is a work

819
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 1: in progress for me. And yeah, the joy is It's

820
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: a cool experiment, isn't it.

821
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 2: We're all in an experiment.

822
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: We sure are the American experiment. Robert. Before I let

823
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: you go and thank you for giving me a few

824
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: extra moments of your time. I could talk to you

825
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: all day. I love this book so very much. Coming

826
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: up short is beautiful. Can you tell our friends at home,

827
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: who I imagine are ready to hit the streets in

828
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: your service by now, tell them where they can find

829
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: the book. Please tell them where they can watch the documentary, which,

830
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier for earlier friends is called The

831
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: Last Class. Let's let the people know where they can

832
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: be with you.

833
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 2: Well, the book you can find in any bookstore, and

834
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 2: you can order it not through Amazon.

835
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: I don't like Amazon, you don't say.

836
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 2: And I, but I urge people to order it. There

837
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 2: are several portals that I actually put on my substack

838
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 2: in terms of the movie is now being shown in well,

839
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 2: let's see thirty six states in one hundred theaters, and

840
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 2: I also on my substack indicate kind of how people

841
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 2: can find out where the movie is being shown. And

842
01:00:55,400 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 2: maybe you or your technical staff can put up a

843
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 2: little notice.

844
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: We can put some links in the show notes. That's

845
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: easy for us.

846
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 2: Links and show notes. That's what we all need metaphor

847
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 2: metaphorically and right actually, but the movie and the book

848
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 2: are both aspects of what we've been talking about Sophia

849
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 2: in terms of empowering and teaching. Yeah, and telling a

850
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 2: story that runs counter to but also explains why we

851
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 2: are in the darkness we're in. I'm want to thank

852
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 2: you so much. Thank you for your hosting this and

853
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 2: for your talking to me. And it's been a complete pleasure.

854
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: It's always a delight when I get to see you,

855
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: and I do because one of my favorite things that

856
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 1: I get to do in my life is brag about

857
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 1: my friends. And while this episode will be airing for

858
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: our friends at home a few weeks after our tape

859
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 1: date on Zoom Today, you did become a number one

860
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller, and that's worth bragging about.

861
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 2: Well, you can brag about it, I don't want to.

862
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:13,919
Speaker 1: I will brag about you with pleasure, with pleasure, thank

863
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: you for today.

864
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sophia,