Speaker 1: The narrative of the difference between what you think you
Speaker 1: want and what you actually need, and a reflection on
Speaker 1: that and in some ways that relates to what you're
Speaker 1: already manifesting. Then the other is to understand that the
Speaker 1: universe doesn't give a fuck about you.
Speaker 2: In this episode of the Psychology Podcast, I had a
Speaker 2: great chat with doctor James Dottie about his most recent book,
Speaker 2: Mind and Magic, the Neuroscience of manifestation and how it
Speaker 2: changes everything. In this discussion, we discussed the real secret,
Speaker 2: which is that the universe doesn't actually give a fuck
Speaker 2: about us, and we learn that if we want to
Speaker 2: live a rich, meaningful and prosperous life, we do not
Speaker 2: have to appease any power beyond ourselves. We also discuss
Speaker 2: whether there's any science behind the wall of attraction, the
Speaker 2: importance of value tagging, and the neuroscience of manifestation. This
Speaker 2: was an elucidating and fun chat and I hope it
Speaker 2: helps you reach your goals and dreams in a science
Speaker 2: backed way. So, without further ado, I bring you doctor
Speaker 2: James Dottie. Hey Jim, thanks for coming back in the Psychology.
Speaker 2: Thanks for being on the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: You forgot you were on my podcast A little loon.
Speaker 2: I remember that.
Speaker 1: I remember that. I'm glad your memories at least last
Speaker 1: a few months or so.
Speaker 2: Well, I enjoy chatting with you, and so I'm glad
Speaker 2: to finally have you on my show. And wow, what
Speaker 2: a topic. What a topic? Oo, Mama, Well, I can't
Speaker 2: you know, I can't tell you a number of people
Speaker 2: I've met in the sort of spirituality space who say
Speaker 2: things like it was meant to be that we met.
Speaker 2: I knew that someone like you would enter my life,
Speaker 2: you know, like and I and I tend to roll
Speaker 2: my eyes at that because I think, like, well, isn't
Speaker 2: there an assumption there that the world revolves on you?
Speaker 2: I mean, isn't there kind of be a well assumption
Speaker 2: there that like my whole purpose of existing is so
Speaker 2: that I could come into your life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, it's even interesting if you
Speaker 1: look at sort of the Earth in the galaxy in
Speaker 1: the universe, we're like the smallest, smallest speck and you know,
Speaker 1: and but you're right when people say these things, I
Speaker 1: have a tendency to do the same. Now that being
Speaker 1: said delusion and makes us feel comfortable.
Speaker 2: Well, your book's not about delusion, though it's about actually
Speaker 2: taking steps, yeah, I mean really at its base. I
Speaker 2: read the whole book and I was like, this could
Speaker 2: have been a book framed in many ways. This could
Speaker 2: have been a book on the science of goal attainment,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's obviously sexy the way you framed it. It's sexy.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's sexier the way you framed it that
Speaker 2: you know, the neuroscience. Of course, these days, these days,
Speaker 2: if you want to really be sexy, you have to
Speaker 2: say that it's it's grounded in neuros, like like there's
Speaker 2: nothing that's not grounded in neuroscience in our you know,
Speaker 2: but like this, this one, this one, I told you
Speaker 2: this one's grounded in neuroscience.
Speaker 1: Well you just look at the popularity of neuroscience podcasts
Speaker 1: and everybody's interested in neuroscience. But you're absolutely correct, they're
Speaker 1: all all different ways. This could have been entitled although
Speaker 1: one of the things that's always interested me is is
Speaker 1: sort of manifestation. But how it I think was really
Speaker 1: distorted with this book. The Secret, Yeah, which is sort
Speaker 1: of a gospel of I want.
Speaker 2: For sure, I always get at least one student every
Speaker 2: semester in my class raising their hands saying, Scott, are
Speaker 2: you going to talk about the secret this semester?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, this goes back to the law of attractions,
Speaker 1: the other interesting term that's used when people talk about
Speaker 1: that as well. But you know, the reality is that
Speaker 1: on some level it is all in your mind. But
Speaker 1: as you know, with a number of people in the
Speaker 1: wellness space, they take a little bit of knowledge and
Speaker 1: combine that with woo woo and pseudoscience and then they
Speaker 1: come up with a powerful narrative to sell.
Speaker 2: Well, let's let's dive into you and your work, and
Speaker 2: we could focus on all the charlatans, but let's focus
Speaker 2: on this, this masterpiece you've written here, another masterpiece from
Speaker 2: doctor Jim.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's that's kind of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well the last come on, let's be honest.
Speaker 2: You've had some really best selling books. The opening of
Speaker 2: the whole book is this could quite possibly go down
Speaker 2: in history. Is one of my favorite openings to any book.
Speaker 2: Is first of all, first I want to say that
Speaker 2: the intro or chapter one, it's called what's the Real Secret?
Speaker 2: And then the first sentence is the universe doesn't give
Speaker 2: a fuck about you.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Now, now, don't you think that's going to piss off something.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you were just trying to sell books,
Speaker 2: maybe you wouldn't say that.
Speaker 1: No, I'm not just trying to sell books, but I
Speaker 1: want to suddenly sort of grab people's attention because there
Speaker 1: is this whole framing by a subset of people in
Speaker 1: the manifestation space or who have interest in that area,
Speaker 1: who go, well, I feel the universe is doing X,
Speaker 1: y or zuh and it's complete bs. You know, I
Speaker 1: was talking to John Hamm and he said, at best,
Speaker 1: the the universe not only doesn't give a fuck, it's
Speaker 1: at best it's just random, right, And it is. Now.
Speaker 1: You can get in all sorts of more subtle debates
Speaker 1: about free will and some of these other things, but
Speaker 1: the reality is, as I mentioned in the book, the
Speaker 1: universe has no fucks to give.
Speaker 2: It does seem to be the case. Well, the the
Speaker 2: word manifestation, I think we need to really define it. So, well,
Speaker 2: what do you mean by manifesting? Does it mean if
Speaker 2: I manifest something?
Speaker 1: Well, it's the ability to if you will embed in
Speaker 1: an intention in your subconscious that at least how I
Speaker 1: look at it into your subconscious that utilizes our various
Speaker 1: cognitive brain networks to maximize the ability of our brain
Speaker 1: to maximally make an intention manifest. Now, a lot of
Speaker 1: people get confused because they'll put let's say, a timeline,
Speaker 1: or they'll say it has to be exactly the way
Speaker 1: I see it. But of course that's not the case
Speaker 1: at all, and in fact, oftentimes what you want doesn't manifest.
Speaker 1: But that gets to another interesting point, which is a
Speaker 1: lot of people, unfortunately, especially in Western capitalist society, have
Speaker 1: a perception of what successes or what they think they want,
Speaker 1: but they don't understand what they need. And I think
Speaker 1: that's part of the problem with the secret.
Speaker 2: Damn dropping some truths over here. Wow. Probably my favorite
Speaker 2: pithy definition of manifestation in your book is when you
Speaker 2: say manifestation is about cultivating a fierce belief in possibility. Now,
Speaker 2: what is the difference between a fierce belief in possibility
Speaker 2: and blind optimism or toxic positivity as they say.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's utilizing knowledge that allows you to
Speaker 1: utilize your brain, if you will, at its best, to
Speaker 1: manifest your intention or to have what you want occur.
Speaker 1: But that has to be tempered with understanding what you
Speaker 1: need versus what you want. And what I mean by
Speaker 1: that is, as I just mentioned earlier, a lot of
Speaker 1: people get confused because they'll say, I want to live
Speaker 1: in a mansion, I want to be the president of whatever,
Speaker 1: I want to live, or drive a Ferrari, etc. Etc.
Speaker 1: And these are VERYI oriented desires, and the problem is
Speaker 1: that when you're focused in that manner, you're missing a
Speaker 1: whole lot, and I think it also undermines your ability
Speaker 1: to actually manifest because, as you know, the nature of
Speaker 1: our species is such that our neurophysiology and our physiology
Speaker 1: in general works best when we care, when we're compassionate,
Speaker 1: when we're kind. That's how we evolved as a species.
Speaker 1: And self absorption or I centered behavior actually is contrary
Speaker 1: to that. And in fact, unfortunately, a lot of people
Speaker 1: who are self focused actually in some ways are afraid
Speaker 1: and they think that by doing these actions that they
Speaker 1: believe will result in external affirmation is what it's all about.
Speaker 1: And of course this is also the definition between hedonic happiness,
Speaker 1: if you will, and udomonic happiness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that distinction between those two different forms
Speaker 2: of happiness. Well, yeah, you're right, I mean, you're right.
Speaker 2: A lot of the secret kind of stuff is sold
Speaker 2: as power money. They don't say things like try manifesting
Speaker 2: that you'll be a better person, like no one cares
Speaker 2: about that. No one cares about that. Manifest maest that
Speaker 2: you work on yourself. Manifest How about you manifest that
Speaker 2: you work on your goddamn self. Nobody cares about that.
Speaker 1: Well, And the thing is, if you did focus on that,
Speaker 1: many things would happen. One is that your physiology works
Speaker 1: much better, and two is you are serving others, which
Speaker 1: ultimately gives meaning and purpose. And when you have your
Speaker 1: physiology and both brain and peripheral physiology working at their best,
Speaker 1: and that results in increase in longevity. And if you
Speaker 1: look at how all the literature on longevity, and whether
Speaker 1: it's the eighty five year Harvard study that Robert Waldinger
Speaker 1: is running right now, or Bob Buttner's Blue Zones, or
Speaker 1: the history of how we lived centuries ago, the reality
Speaker 1: is that people were not so much focused on external possessions.
Speaker 1: They were focused on deep relationships. And it's those deep
Speaker 1: relationships or caring for others or being in community that
Speaker 1: actually make everything work Again. The other challenge I think
Speaker 1: is so many people get and when you're talking about manifestation,
Speaker 1: people get focused on a goal, and they're so focused
Speaker 1: on the goal everything else's secondary. And the reality, of course,
Speaker 1: is that when you have attachment and craving, that causes suffering.
Speaker 1: But the other aspect is that what's really happening is
Speaker 1: the journey. It's not so much the destination. And this
Speaker 1: is where people get confused. And I can tell you
Speaker 1: for myself, growing up in a challenging environment. You know,
Speaker 1: I had this list of goals I wanted to accomplish,
Speaker 1: and indeed I did accomplish them, but you know, at
Speaker 1: the top of every mountain, I was waiting for some
Speaker 1: miracle to happen, and you know, I would have people
Speaker 1: say congratulations, that's amazing, but it had no impact whatsoever
Speaker 1: on my level of security, or nothing got rid of
Speaker 1: my shame. And so all of the external affirmation that
Speaker 1: people chase at the end of the day means nothing,
Speaker 1: and it still leaves you hollow. And this is again
Speaker 1: the failure of books like The Secret or sort of
Speaker 1: the woo woo that is associated with it, where people
Speaker 1: go just pick that goal. If you want a Ferrari,
Speaker 1: go after that Ferrari. The problem is when you get it,
Speaker 1: you keep thinking that everybody will say you're great, You're amazing,
Speaker 1: that's fantastic, and that's going to have some impact on you,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't.
Speaker 2: What's soever, Hey, Jim, you know I hear this phrase
Speaker 2: in the in the kind of spiritual woo woo world
Speaker 2: all the time, called vibrational energy. Can you tell me
Speaker 2: the science behind Is there science behind that?
Speaker 1: Sure? Absolutely? Well? First of all, every object, inanimate or not, vibrates.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the nature of how atoms interact, right,
Speaker 1: there is some vibrational energy and everything. And of course,
Speaker 1: as you know, there's a vibration in the in the brain, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the different oscillations and
Speaker 1: I'll use oscillations and vibration the same way. You know,
Speaker 1: you have alpha, beta, theta, delta, and gamma waves and
Speaker 1: they're very important to brain function. The other interesting thing
Speaker 1: that a lot of people don't appreciate is, uh, your
Speaker 1: you have if you want to call it, vibrational energy
Speaker 1: from your heart itself. And as an example, there is
Speaker 1: a direct correlation between heart rate variability and aagement of
Speaker 1: our sympathetic and para sympathetic systems. And you can actually
Speaker 1: measure the energy five or six feet away actually from
Speaker 1: your heart itself. And this also relates to the phenomena,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you're aware of it. As an example,
Speaker 1: if a group of women become roommates, oftentimes their minstrual
Speaker 1: periods will align.
Speaker 2: I've heard about that, yeah.
Speaker 1: And also also if you take set a group of
Speaker 1: metronomes that are all clicking at different beats, eventually they'll
Speaker 1: all align. And there is a body of literature actually
Speaker 1: that demonstrates that this vibrational energy can have a positive effect.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you've also been in a situation where
Speaker 1: there's a person you meet and they have this sort
Speaker 1: of radiance about them that makes you feel comfortable, calm,
Speaker 1: and it reflects off of you, and oftentimes you align
Speaker 1: with that. And conversely, if that you want to call
Speaker 1: it vibration, is negative, if you will, you will pull
Speaker 1: away from it. And so I don't think there's any
Speaker 1: question there is vibrational energy. And some people have this
Speaker 1: belief in panpsychism, where you know everything vibrates, et cetera,
Speaker 1: et cetera. I don't have an answer for that, but
Speaker 1: I think if you look at the science, there's clearly
Speaker 1: vibration in us and whether it's your heart, whether it's
Speaker 1: your brain, there's no question about that. And in some
Speaker 1: ways it also goes back to our ability to change
Speaker 1: our brains, and we do have that power. And I
Speaker 1: think that's what people don't realize. And this is the
Speaker 1: difference between people getting lost in sort of wishing the
Speaker 1: universe will fix things, or keep searching for the law
Speaker 1: of attraction to you know, give me what I want.
Speaker 1: But that's not the case, of course whatsoever. It's all
Speaker 1: within you. And this is in some ways what I
Speaker 1: talk about also at the beginning, is people have a
Speaker 1: belief in what they think they want, but it's far
Speaker 1: different than what they need. And in some ways the
Speaker 1: book is about reclaiming if you want to call it
Speaker 1: your sovereigntry or self agency.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, in a lot of ways, your book really
Speaker 2: is kind of arguing against the opposite of having a
Speaker 2: victim mindset about your life circumstances. So reading between the
Speaker 2: lines and kind of I pick up a lot about that.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the neuroscience a little bit more, because
Speaker 2: it's very interesting. The different brain networks that you identify
Speaker 2: in your book are the very same brain networks that
Speaker 2: I identify when I talk about creativity. You know, the default well,
Speaker 2: but it's just also so happens. We have just so
Speaker 2: many brain networks in our brain, so exactly, so it
Speaker 2: just happens. These are the four brain networks that are
Speaker 2: relevant for virtually anything we're doing in our conscious life.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, that's that's correct.
Speaker 2: But let's let's talk through them. So the first is
Speaker 2: my favorite, my favorite one, the default mode brainer and
Speaker 2: I call it the imagination network. How is the imagination
Speaker 2: network relevant to manifestation.
Speaker 1: Well, one, it's self referential and as you were saying,
Speaker 1: you mentioned creativity, but it creates stories about ourselves and
Speaker 1: that's wonderful. And of course it's associated with mine wondering.
Speaker 1: So it's not, if you will, part of the what
Speaker 1: we call the task positive network. So it may set
Speaker 1: the stage for your intention, but actually to have your
Speaker 1: intention manifest you have to engage the other networks, which,
Speaker 1: as you know, of course, is the salience network and
Speaker 1: the attention network and the executive control network. And so
Speaker 1: in some ways, when you are actually doing the manifesting,
Speaker 1: the default mode network is down regulated or turned off,
Speaker 1: if you will. Of course, the problem is that it
Speaker 1: can be hijacked by fear, worry, anxiety, which can also
Speaker 1: be engaged to result in rumination. So I think that's
Speaker 1: something to keep in mind. But at its best, it
Speaker 1: will set the stage for you manifesting and engaging these
Speaker 1: other networks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it allows you to visualize the future image of
Speaker 2: yourself first of all, which is very important. Argue that
Speaker 2: it can interfere with our flow state trying to I
Speaker 2: assume that you mean when it's kind of attached to
Speaker 2: UH two other ruminative systems and self criticism systems. But
Speaker 2: you know, in certain configuration states with other networks, I
Speaker 2: think the default mold network is what allows us to
Speaker 2: get into the flow state, like as you see with
Speaker 2: those studies on rappers that they put in the FM
Speaker 2: ry machine and jazz improvisers. I mean, their default mode
Speaker 2: network is flowing, you know. And but so really it
Speaker 2: really doesn't have to do with how all these networks
Speaker 2: are communicating with each other. You can't just isolate one network, right, And.
Speaker 1: No, I think you're exactly right, you know. Obviously, this
Speaker 1: book was not meant to be a treatise on the
Speaker 1: UH every aspect of the brain networks. It was meant
Speaker 1: to sort of give an overview without getting lost in
Speaker 1: the weeds. And you know, the one advance is, uh,
Speaker 1: you have to miss a lot of stuff, and you know,
Speaker 1: have a salient poets you want to emphasize. But of
Speaker 1: course that leaves out other aspects. And it's sort of
Speaker 1: interesting because obviously, if you're a psychologists or a neuroscientists,
Speaker 1: you know, you can sit there go well, Jim, you
Speaker 1: know there was this paper back then and it didn't
Speaker 1: you know, you you misstated this and and obviously in
Speaker 1: some cases that's true. The point was to give an
Speaker 1: overview in general how these cognitive brain networks interact with
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. You also love that
Speaker 2: you separate the attention network from the central executive network.
Speaker 2: I don't see that distinction made that much. So well done,
Speaker 2: well done on that. You know. Yeah, this stuff is
Speaker 2: I mean, the real, the real neuroscience of this stuff.
Speaker 2: It gets really complicated. It's like neuroscientists have talked about
Speaker 2: that the default mode network is anti correlated with the
Speaker 2: central executive network, but I've argued that that's not quite right.
Speaker 2: It's actually the anti correlation is with the attention network
Speaker 2: and the default mode network. The default mode network can
Speaker 2: be coupled with the central executive network really well when
Speaker 2: you're productively daydreaming, you.
Speaker 1: Know, And that is correct. Yeah, no, no, I think
Speaker 1: that's right. I think though that you know, the key
Speaker 1: is because you can't make manifestation happen without the executive
Speaker 1: control network, right, and you know sort of that's the
Speaker 1: top down action, or.
Speaker 2: Else you're just indulging, right, you know, got garbage and
Speaker 2: odengine's work.
Speaker 1: You're just indulging, which many of us do to be fun. Indulging, Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: well until it's not.
Speaker 2: Until you really want to make a change.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, you know. I think though. One
Speaker 1: of the keys though, is this idea of actually actively
Speaker 1: embedding your desires, if you will, or your intention into
Speaker 1: your subconscious And I think a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: understand that because you know, all of us fundamentally are
Speaker 1: always manifesting. That's how we live a life. You know,
Speaker 1: we see something we want or something to accomplish, but
Speaker 1: you know, most of us do it inefficiently. I think
Speaker 1: the point of the book is to outline a method
Speaker 1: one so you understand the power that you have to
Speaker 1: change your internal world and then a set of steps
Speaker 1: to maximize the possibility of actually having these things happen.
Speaker 1: And that's I think quite a bit different than saying, well,
Speaker 1: you know, just believe you want to drive a Ferrari
Speaker 1: or live in a mansion, and you know, write it
Speaker 1: down and think about it and it'll allally happen. And
Speaker 1: the other aspect of this, which is in some ways
Speaker 1: of paradox to the first sentence of the book, which
Speaker 1: is Universe has to give a fuck about you. But
Speaker 1: I think the statement God only helps those who help
Speaker 1: themselves means that you know, you have to work at this.
Speaker 1: You know, this isn't a sort of one and done
Speaker 1: or you're just okay, I'm thinking about it, therefore it's
Speaker 1: going to happen. Yeah. No.
Speaker 2: I mean there's some tough love in this book too
Speaker 2: that a lot of the woo woo crowd won't won't appreciate.
Speaker 1: I think part of the problem with the issue is
Speaker 1: that actually part of the woo woo crowd or pseudoscience crowd,
Speaker 1: many of them actually want knowledge. It's just that they've
Speaker 1: been so inundated with pseudoscience. And as you know, they're
Speaker 1: different quote unquote influencers who love to mix woo wuo
Speaker 1: and pseudoscience with science to paint a narrative that benefits
Speaker 1: them or makes them appear to be very knowledgeable or
Speaker 1: have some power. My agenda is just trying to understand
Speaker 1: in a way how this works, hopefully in an objective way,
Speaker 1: although of course all of us have some degree of
Speaker 1: biases and present in a manner which people understand and
Speaker 1: it can be used to help them, so I love.
Speaker 1: But that being said, of course there's a group of
Speaker 1: people who can't help themselves to you know, getting crystals
Speaker 1: and doing these other things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, isn't it possible to be manifesting
Speaker 2: things that you don't know you're manifesting and that you
Speaker 2: don't really want to be manifested because of just the
Speaker 2: way you are?
Speaker 1: Well in some ways, now you're getting into a sort
Speaker 1: of a different aspect of this, because this is so
Speaker 1: of the way we live our lives. Right As an example,
Speaker 1: you know, there are many people who have had childhood
Speaker 1: trauma and they carry that baggage with them, and then
Speaker 1: that baggage influences every decision they make, every relationship they have.
Speaker 1: Oftentimes it makes the choice about their profession and it
Speaker 1: can be extraordinarily detrimental. And this is why you see
Speaker 1: people who choose the same as an example, abusive partner
Speaker 1: or a partner who abuses drugs and alcohol, and they said, think,
Speaker 1: why does this keep happening to me? Because you have
Speaker 1: deeply embedded what has given you security in the past
Speaker 1: or during your if you will, bonding or attachment period.
Speaker 1: Obviously it was maladjusted and you carry this stuff. So
Speaker 1: you know, part of this is to have some insight
Speaker 1: and self awareness about these other aspects that are drivers
Speaker 1: of our behavior.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so important to have that kind of self
Speaker 2: awareness to kind of to just to make sure we're
Speaker 2: manifesting what we want to actually be manifesting, because you
Speaker 2: do talk in your book about how we can be
Speaker 2: unintentionally manifesting things. So that's why I brought it up.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, no, I think that's exactly right, and people
Speaker 1: do that all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So who are the filing clerk and the bloodhound
Speaker 2: who run our subconscious.
Speaker 1: Well, this is getting into what we talked about a
Speaker 1: little bit earlier about the salience network and the attention network,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think the other aspect, just to mention,
Speaker 1: is as you're well aware. I mean, we have, you know,
Speaker 1: millions of data points coming in from our sensory organs
Speaker 1: every second, and we're only able to process a minuscule
Speaker 1: amount of the information. And so one is a recognition
Speaker 1: of this. And how do you then take on a
Speaker 1: conscious level a desire you have or something you want
Speaker 1: to manifest, and how to embed that. And in the book,
Speaker 1: of course, I go through a six step program, if
Speaker 1: you will, But it's actually value tagging that and embedding
Speaker 1: that into your subconscious. The bloodhound example which I used
Speaker 1: at the book relates to your salience network, because again
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've had the experience when you've been at
Speaker 1: a party, if you will, and the noise is loud
Speaker 1: and you hear your name right and you immediately turn.
Speaker 1: And that's because that is your identity. It's very very
Speaker 1: deeply embedded into your subconscious. So you respond, and if
Speaker 1: you embed your intention, if you will, that will also happen.
Speaker 1: As an example, there's a project I'm working on and
Speaker 1: I was at a coffee shop a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about it while I was sitting there,
Speaker 1: and then through this noise of the coffee shop, I
Speaker 1: heard these two people mentioning exactly what I was thinking about,
Speaker 1: and I went over and introduced myself, and in fact,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of commonality and sort of we hooked
Speaker 1: up to uh work on this project together. And so
Speaker 1: I had embedded that intention and it had actually sort
Speaker 1: of scoured the external and also often the internal environment
Speaker 1: to set the stage, if you will. And I think
Speaker 1: this is also where synchronicity comes in, or what we
Speaker 1: call synchronicity.
Speaker 2: Oh wait, what's what's synchronousy? How's that different from coincidence?
Speaker 1: Well, they're the same and the same. What I mean
Speaker 1: by that is that if you're manifesting and a quote
Speaker 1: unquote coincident occurs or an event occurs that aligns with
Speaker 1: your intention, we call it a syncre and that's when
Speaker 1: the if you will, the salience network and attention network
Speaker 1: have done their jobs. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I feel like, you know, it's happened. What
Speaker 2: happens to all of us. I'm not going to say
Speaker 2: it just happens to me.
Speaker 1: But see, you're getting into that thing where you're you're
Speaker 1: the most important person in the room, right what we
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier.
Speaker 2: I want to make sure I don't fall prey to that.
Speaker 2: But we're talking. Something just popped up on my social
Speaker 2: media as we were talking. On my screen, someone put
Speaker 2: a meme that says, don't forget you have to do
Speaker 2: the inner work, not just eat, not just eat shrooms.
Speaker 1: Well, and uh, you know, I think that's very relatable.
Speaker 1: But I think the other aspect of this is, you know,
Speaker 1: we were talking about everyone's manifesting. I think part of
Speaker 1: the discussion though, is to understand what you have been
Speaker 1: manifesting and trying to understand if what you've been manifesting
Speaker 1: is really good for you or not. And this gets
Speaker 1: back to having some degree of self awareness and processing
Speaker 1: how you have been living your life and the events
Speaker 1: that have occurred to you. And then the other thing
Speaker 1: is clarifying actually what you really want. And when I
Speaker 1: talk about this, what I mean is that when we're
Speaker 1: self focused and self absorbed about what we want, and
Speaker 1: I think in some ways, most recently over the last
Speaker 1: decade or two, it's because we've created an educational system
Speaker 1: that every kid's a winner, right the ten kids in
Speaker 1: a race, and the fact that you showed up for
Speaker 1: the race, you're a winner now, and unfortunately creates a
Speaker 1: sense of entitlement and a belief that you deserve this.
Speaker 1: And it's also again very self focused I want. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: that separates you from others and it's not realistic. The
Speaker 1: other thing is it's like depression in some ways. If
Speaker 1: you're depressed and you actually go out and help somebody,
Speaker 1: it actually has a very positive effect on you. In fact,
Speaker 1: it decreases many people's depression. And the reason I bring
Speaker 1: that up is when you look at the world through
Speaker 1: the lens of the reality that everyone is suffering, then
Speaker 1: it actually changes what you want into a much more
Speaker 1: healthy place than sort of this self absorption aspect of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wonderful. I mean you have a whole Like you said,
Speaker 2: you have a six point plan in your book to
Speaker 2: help with that. I mean, we don't need to reveal everything.
Speaker 2: We want people to buy your book. But you know,
Speaker 2: I think this is a fair question. What is the
Speaker 2: very first step that our listeners can take to begin
Speaker 2: successfully manifesting themselves today?
Speaker 1: Well, I think it is one the narrative of the
Speaker 1: difference between what you think you want and what you
Speaker 1: actually need and reflection on that, and in some ways
Speaker 1: that relates to what are you're already manifesting. Then the
Speaker 1: other is to understand that the universe doesn't give a
Speaker 1: fuck about you. It's irrelevant, and the only person who
Speaker 1: gives a fuck about you can only be you. And
Speaker 1: what people don't understand, and this relates to actually self compassion,
Speaker 1: is so many of us have a negative dialogue going
Speaker 1: on in our head, right, and it tells us we're
Speaker 1: not worthy, we don't deserve, etc. Etc. And what that
Speaker 1: does is one, it puts in a constant fear state,
Speaker 1: which stimulates your sympathetic nervous system or your flight fight
Speaker 1: or freight mode, which actually limits you're talking about creativity,
Speaker 1: but it also I believe limits your ability to manifest
Speaker 1: because you're not if you will align with those parts
Speaker 1: of your brain that get things done. In fact, it
Speaker 1: interferes with that. And so one is to understand that
Speaker 1: when you have negative self talk, it's like laying down
Speaker 1: bricks to create yourself in post prison. So this relates
Speaker 1: to limited beliefs, right, because that's what stops manifestation. When
Speaker 1: you have chronic negative self talk, that impedes your ability
Speaker 1: actually to manifest because once you say I can't or
Speaker 1: it's not possible, that becomes truth and as you well know,
Speaker 1: your brain doesn't know the difference between truth or untruth.
Speaker 2: So true. Wow, Yeah, this idea that our thoughts create
Speaker 2: our reality is powerful to a very large degree. It's
Speaker 2: not a complete part, not completely part of the story,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's important part of the story.
Speaker 1: So I think though understanding the power you have within
Speaker 1: to change your internal dialogue or the narrative that you have,
Speaker 1: and also understanding that once you're able to be kind
Speaker 1: to yourself, you often are not as self absorbed, and
Speaker 1: you also understand everyone is suffering. And the reason I
Speaker 1: think that becomes important is you know, many people are
Speaker 1: more hypercritical of themselves than anybody else, right, And then
Speaker 1: when you get in that mode, it's very isolating and
Speaker 1: in some ways it's a chronic fear response. When you're
Speaker 1: able to be kind to yourself and you shift from
Speaker 1: this sympathetic nervous system engagement to engagement of your paar
Speaker 1: sympathetic nervous system, you look at the world through a
Speaker 1: different lens. And when you look at the world through
Speaker 1: a more positive lens, it actually, I believe changes what
Speaker 1: you think now is important. And again this gets back
Speaker 1: to Hadona happiness, where you're seeking pleasure, and that's what
Speaker 1: the I generation has done, right, I mean, it's I
Speaker 1: want a ferrari. I want to imagine. I want people
Speaker 1: to think I'm powerful and influential, and I think that
Speaker 1: unfortunately distracts people. And so when you're able to shift
Speaker 1: over by looking through a different lens and engage in
Speaker 1: your pair sympathetic nervous system, as you know, all of
Speaker 1: your cognitive brain network work work much better.
Speaker 2: What is the alphabet of the heart?
Speaker 1: Now you're a friend of my other book, which is okay.
Speaker 2: Isn't it relevant to resonance.
Speaker 1: To give a little clarity to that? In my first book,
Speaker 1: Into the Magic Shop, a Neurosurgeon's Quest to understand the
Speaker 1: Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart, which,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, I was a New York Times bestseller.
Speaker 1: It's the bestseller in eight countries. It's in thirty six languages.
Speaker 1: When I was talking about at the end of the
Speaker 1: book and this is a memoir that includes neuroscience and
Speaker 1: contemplative practice, I was asked to give a talk to
Speaker 1: the incoming medical students at my medical school, and as
Speaker 1: you know, medical school unfortunately requires an immense amount of memorization,
Speaker 1: and people use mnemonics for that, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: give the students a mnemonic that would center them in
Speaker 1: their lives, and so I created, if you want to
Speaker 1: call it, the Alphabet of the Heart, and it's ten letters,
Speaker 1: and in many ways it's a summary of what I
Speaker 1: have learned on my own journey that centers me. And
Speaker 1: to be frank with you getting back to what you
Speaker 1: were alluding to, it sets the stage for one for
Speaker 1: me to claim my self agency, but also look at
Speaker 1: the world through a lens of kindness. And it is
Speaker 1: c compassion for self and others, d recognizing the dignity
Speaker 1: of every person, E. Practicing equanimity, and just to mention
Speaker 1: about equanimity. And this relates also to emotion regulation. We
Speaker 1: have a tendency to chase things or have goals, and
Speaker 1: we're talking about Hadona happiness. Once you reach the goal,
Speaker 1: there's nothing there. And the reality is these experiences are transitory.
Speaker 1: But conversely, when we have downtimes where things aren't working
Speaker 1: the way we want, many people get into this belief that, oh,
Speaker 1: this is going to last forever. I can't handle that.
Speaker 1: This is the most horrible thing. But just like you
Speaker 1: know these quote unquote positive events or goals that you've attained.
Speaker 1: The downside is also transitory, and so having equanimity or
Speaker 1: this evenness of temperament, or if you want to call it,
Speaker 1: emotion regulation where you don't get lost in the extremes.
Speaker 1: That's very very important, and it means that you appreciate
Speaker 1: the positive aspects. But on reflection, you also understand that
Speaker 1: the wisdom you've obtained, the resilience that you've had as
Speaker 1: a human being more often relates to the down states,
Speaker 1: and that's where you've learned things. And so in some ways,
Speaker 1: actually they both have, if you will, a very positive purpose,
Speaker 1: although nobody likes to be in the dowd state. So
Speaker 1: f is for forgiveness. And again, people have a tendency
Speaker 1: to attach emotion to events, and it's just our nature,
Speaker 1: and that can translate attaching emotion to an individual who
Speaker 1: you feel has wronged you, and of course the problem
Speaker 1: with that is every time you see that person or
Speaker 1: think of that event that activates your emotions. Now, on
Speaker 1: some level, that's wonderful if it's like a person you
Speaker 1: love and you think of them and you have this
Speaker 1: warmth about you. But for many people they carry this
Speaker 1: anger and hostility towards somebody, it has a very very
Speaker 1: negative effect on their physiology. And so being able to forgive,
Speaker 1: which is not the same as forgetting, is very important.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the most important things, which
Speaker 1: I talked about in the book, also is gratitude. If
Speaker 1: you reflect on the reality that over fifty percent of
Speaker 1: people in the world live on less than two dollars
Speaker 1: and fifty cents a day, if you're listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: you are very very blessed. And people get lost again
Speaker 1: in a narrative that says I don't have enough. And
Speaker 1: it's interesting, no matter how much money some people get,
Speaker 1: it's never enough. And in fact, as you know the literature,
Speaker 1: the more you get actually doesn't make you more generous.
Speaker 1: It makes you look through the world through a lens
Speaker 1: of scarcity, which is very very unfortunate. So I reflect
Speaker 1: on that a great deal about being thankful. And as
Speaker 1: you probably know from my first book, you know I
Speaker 1: lost eighty million dollars in six weeks, which had a
Speaker 1: little bit of an impact on my life. But again,
Speaker 1: and it's an interesting story, right, I went from rags
Speaker 1: if you will. I grew up in poverty, you know,
Speaker 1: being a neurosurgeon, being a successful entrepreneur, living in a penthouse,
Speaker 1: having a large home in Newport Beach, having a Ferrari, Porsche,
Speaker 1: BMW range Rover and Mercedes in my garage, flying in
Speaker 1: private jets. I had a villain Florence. I was buying
Speaker 1: an island in New Zealand. But the interesting thing was,
Speaker 1: and of course the fascinating thing is all of these
Speaker 1: people are saying, how great you are. Wow, look what
Speaker 1: you've done. You have all of these things. And frankly,
Speaker 1: when I had all of those things, I was never
Speaker 1: more miserable in my entire life. Really, absolutely, I I
Speaker 1: was so unhappy. And uh uh you know, imagine it's funny.
Speaker 1: I used to a friend of mine owned one of
Speaker 1: the most popular restaurants in Newport Beach. You know, it's
Speaker 1: one of those places where there's a line a mile long,
Speaker 1: and uh and I used to have my own table
Speaker 1: there and I would pull up my yellow Ferrari and
Speaker 1: park right in front, and you know, hop out and
Speaker 1: I would just cut in front of the line and
Speaker 1: I would go sit at my table. And at that time,
Speaker 1: you could smoke cigars in the restaurants and uh. And
Speaker 1: you know, I met innumerable women. Uh and and did
Speaker 1: and did go through this thing of meeting all of
Speaker 1: these women and frankly sleeping with them. But again, to me, uh,
Speaker 1: it was I couldn't do it. No, I couldn't do
Speaker 1: it anymore. It bothered me so much, unfortunately, and maybe
Speaker 1: my conscience is a little different than most people's, but
Speaker 1: I just couldn't do it because I would wake up
Speaker 1: with these women and frankly, oftentimes I wouldn't even remember
Speaker 1: their names. As soon as I would wake up, I
Speaker 1: would want them to be gone. And you know, and
Speaker 1: they and they would share their stories with you, and
Speaker 1: because I would ask them about them, right, and you know,
Speaker 1: it would be like either they had, you know, personal
Speaker 1: issues related to maybe abuse, or or they would be
Speaker 1: recently divorced and have a few children and they want
Speaker 1: to marry somebody, you know, to live the good life, right,
Speaker 1: And you know the sad thing is that well, sure,
Speaker 1: but the problem is, you know, if you sleep with
Speaker 1: some dude you meet after three or four hours, his
Speaker 1: interest is not in marrying you or developing a deep relationship.
Speaker 1: And for me, I felt so horrible because I was
Speaker 1: just using these women for my own self satisfaction, and
Speaker 1: they were very vulnerable. I just I had to stop.
Speaker 1: I couldn't do it anymore. And so that may seem
Speaker 1: strange or contradictory, but it just didn't work for me.
Speaker 1: And but that related to so many things.
Speaker 2: Wow, well, thank you, well, thank you for sharing that
Speaker 2: story in a way. That story makes you vulnerable in
Speaker 2: a way because you know, a lot of academics wouldn't
Speaker 2: admit living such a lifestyle, right, so it takes a
Speaker 2: little bit of courage to even tell that story.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, in some ways though, what we're talking
Speaker 1: about is we're talking about sort of selfish goals. Again.
Speaker 1: When I was with this woman in the magic shop,
Speaker 1: she taught me a meditation or mindfulness practice, but it
Speaker 1: combined self compassion and compassion for others. But it also
Speaker 1: a combined and manifestation technique. And I was twelve at
Speaker 1: the time. So I made a list of things I wanted,
Speaker 1: which is a Rolex watch, a mansion, a portie, a
Speaker 1: million dollars, et cetera, et cetera. And I did manifest
Speaker 1: every one of those things. But the problem was I
Speaker 1: didn't have inside or self awareness at all. And that's
Speaker 1: where I got lost and because the reality was everything
Speaker 1: was self focused. It was all about me, right, and
Speaker 1: even though I was a doctor helping people, it was
Speaker 1: still about me. And in fact, that's the interesting aspect
Speaker 1: of losing eighty million dollars because after I lost it
Speaker 1: with the dot com crash and was three million dollars
Speaker 1: in the hole because I had borrowed fifteen million dollars
Speaker 1: from the bank, I went through a period of reflection
Speaker 1: and I was saying, you know what happened here? I mean,
Speaker 1: I had this incredible trajectory and now I'm back having
Speaker 1: lost everything. You know, what did I do wrong? And
Speaker 1: what I realized was again and it relates very much
Speaker 1: to what we're talking about with manifesting. You know, people say,
Speaker 1: I want, you know, the match in the car, going
Speaker 1: out with hot women, et cetera, et cetera, And I
Speaker 1: had all of that, yet it didn't fulfill me. And
Speaker 1: I kept waiting for the affirmation from all these other
Speaker 1: people to tell me how great I was, and nothing
Speaker 1: took care of my own insecurity or shame. And so
Speaker 1: during that period of reflection, I changed the narrative or
Speaker 1: I changed my perspective, which is an important part of
Speaker 1: how we change our brain in some ways, because I
Speaker 1: realized it wasn't about me, and when I focused on others,
Speaker 1: that actually changed everything. And as an example, after losing
Speaker 1: all that money and going through this period, I tell
Speaker 1: people I ended up with two best friends during that
Speaker 1: period of time. One was the band who said, when
Speaker 1: are you paying me? And the other was my lawyer.
Speaker 1: Because I had to deal with a lot of issues
Speaker 1: and I had made some arrangements to give money to
Speaker 1: charity stock that I had in a company that I
Speaker 1: had run, and I spoke to the lawyer and he said, look, Jim,
Speaker 1: we actually did not file the paperwork and you actually
Speaker 1: still own all of that stock, so you don't have
Speaker 1: to give it to charity. And I reflected on this,
Speaker 1: and here I am three million the hole. I said, no,
Speaker 1: go ahead and give it all the charity. And so
Speaker 1: this ended up being thirty million dollars. I set up
Speaker 1: I set up health clinics around the world, blood banks,
Speaker 1: I set up programs for the disabled. I set up
Speaker 1: a program for adolescents affected by AIDS HIV, and I
Speaker 1: endowed chairs at Stanford as well as at my medical
Speaker 1: school two Lane in New Orleans. I rebuilt the library
Speaker 1: after Hurricane Katrina, and in fact I was the guy
Speaker 1: who had probably the lowest GPA ever to get into
Speaker 1: medical school, which I was very appreciative of. The medical
Speaker 1: school took me, and I ended up after Hurricane Katrina,
Speaker 1: the dean had resigned and they wanted to recruit a
Speaker 1: fellow from Harvard, but he wanted an endowed chair, so
Speaker 1: I actually ended up endowing his chair, and so the
Speaker 1: dean at Tulane is the Doughty professor actually, so it's
Speaker 1: an interesting trajectory. But the point was that I went
Speaker 1: from rags to riches, at least in a monetary sense,
Speaker 1: and then when I went back to rags again, I
Speaker 1: actually got everything. And what I mean by that is
Speaker 1: I don't want to give the impression that losing thirty
Speaker 1: million dollars my life was were in because at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, I was a neurosurgeon, still getting
Speaker 1: paid point nine percent more than everyone else, and you know,
Speaker 1: so I certainly could not complain in any way about that.
Speaker 1: But I changed my focus to be of service to
Speaker 1: others because I realized how powerful that was. And in fact,
Speaker 1: that is the point of this book, is to not
Speaker 1: focus on yourself. I have people say, well, you say,
Speaker 1: you know you were miserable having all this stuff. Well,
Speaker 1: I want to be miserable for a while, if I
Speaker 1: could only be so miserable. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. And
Speaker 1: so you know, until you have it and realize it's
Speaker 1: a losory, you think you want that. But I would say,
Speaker 1: because it interferes with everything, the self absorption and what
Speaker 1: also interferes with everybody wants to be around you and
Speaker 1: wants something.
Speaker 2: Okay, so how much is in the alphabet? Does it go?
Speaker 1: It is Z No? No, no, it goes to L
Speaker 1: L gratitude right, whether we're at humility, integrity, and values.
Speaker 1: J is for justice or responsibility to the vulnerable. K
Speaker 1: is kindness and all contained by love. That is the
Speaker 1: alphabet of the heart.
Speaker 2: Well, I love the alphabet of the heart. I do.
Speaker 2: I mean, it does seem like the alphabet of the
Speaker 2: heart helps you manifest things that give you greater meaning
Speaker 2: than short term, ephemeral states of happiness. Would you agree
Speaker 2: with that? No?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think that in some ways that can guide
Speaker 1: you along the way if you want to utilize that.
Speaker 1: And it also, at least for me, it's part of
Speaker 1: my own if you want to call it meditative practice,
Speaker 1: because I wake up every morning and do a breathing
Speaker 1: exercise to again shift me from engagement of my sympathetic
Speaker 1: nervous system to my para sympathetic nervous system, which is
Speaker 1: very much like a mindfulness or mind training practice. And
Speaker 1: then I put in the context of looking at the
Speaker 1: world through awe and joy, and then I H recite
Speaker 1: that alphabet, and uh that sets my intention because as
Speaker 1: you know, all of us get distracted and uh and
Speaker 1: we start thinking how important we are oftentimes and it
Speaker 1: sort of puts me in the right uh you know
Speaker 1: frame of mind, uh, if you will. Uh so, Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that does. But getting back to uh the
Speaker 1: goal of the book. Uh, you mentioned some aspects. I
Speaker 1: think one is and this is related to what you
Speaker 1: had said earlier about uh, you know, pursuing your goals
Speaker 1: passionately if you will, uh is you have to put
Speaker 1: the time in. And the other aspect is, uh, you
Speaker 1: can't get lost on expectations, which again creates unhappiness. We
Speaker 1: were talking about attachment and craving, and of course one
Speaker 1: of the tenets of Buddhist practice is that's the source
Speaker 1: of all suffering. And so when you're so focused on
Speaker 1: quote unquote manifesting, you're going to be unhappy. You're going
Speaker 1: to be unhappy for multiple reasons. One is of that
Speaker 1: people who are so focused on a goal oftentimes do
Speaker 1: it to the detriment of everybody around them. Again, it
Speaker 1: becomes a very self focused behavior. And yet, as you
Speaker 1: well know, being present and is the most important thing
Speaker 1: because that's where all the action is right and that's
Speaker 1: how you make human connection. And so yes, it's you
Speaker 1: need to pursue your goals passionately. You need to put
Speaker 1: the work in, but that doesn't mean not being in
Speaker 1: the present moment. And then the other aspect is people
Speaker 1: get lost in this idea that manifestation one should work
Speaker 1: out exactly as they wish. Jeez, I want to blue
Speaker 1: Porsche delivered on Christmas Day. It does not work that
Speaker 1: way at all, And so oftentimes one it's not on
Speaker 1: your timeline. As an example, I've had one of my
Speaker 1: embedded intentions is to have a world Compassion Festival. Well
Speaker 1: that's only been going on for thirteen years now. Do
Speaker 1: I believe it will happen? Yes? But again I don't
Speaker 1: control the clock. But I have done everything I can
Speaker 1: to embed that intention, and things move in that direction.
Speaker 1: And the other thing is oftentimes, like I was saying,
Speaker 1: you know, I want a blue portie, it doesn't work
Speaker 1: that way. You may get something similar, and there may
Speaker 1: be all sorts of reasons you don't appreciate why that's
Speaker 1: the case. So I think that's important to accept. And again,
Speaker 1: you create an image, but you also have to release
Speaker 1: that and just understand that there are other events that
Speaker 1: impact And sometimes we don't get the thing we want
Speaker 1: to manifest because there's good reason we don't get it right,
Speaker 1: and there are other things at play here, and there
Speaker 1: are other things that on a subconscious level may be
Speaker 1: more salient or more meaningful to us, or actually a
Speaker 1: better way than the way we think.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, better for us as well, Like sometimes the
Speaker 2: universe has our back, even though it doesn't care about us.
Speaker 1: But you know what I mean, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: Something is happening that that is is in your best interest,
Speaker 2: and you'd be you'd be best served by being grateful
Speaker 2: for it and and being a little flexible, even if
Speaker 2: it diverts from your your pie in the sky. Visions
Speaker 2: of Ferraris so Jim one of my favorite quotes from
Speaker 2: your book is at the end where you say manifesting
Speaker 2: is a practice of well being, for orienting harmoniously with life.
Speaker 2: Love that I want to kind of send, send us out,
Speaker 2: you know, in this interview with that kind of vibrational frequency.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for writing a science backed book that
Speaker 2: I think almost all of us can rally around and
Speaker 2: get behind.
Speaker 1: So thank you, Jim, Well, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: It's always a pleasure to connect with you, and so
Speaker 1: I look forward to our further interaction, hopefully in New York.
Speaker 2: Me too, Me too.
Speaker 1: All the best in the books are okay, you too.
Speaker 1: Take care.