1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you. 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. It's Thursday, which means where 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: it's time for our weekly listener mail segment, and we're 11 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: going some strange places today. We are so glad that 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: you're joining us on this journey, this sojourn into stories 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: from the best part of the show, your fellow listeners. 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: But before we get started, guys, it was something I 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: needed to reiterate off air, but I wanted to ask 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: you all about it just while we're rolling, and for 17 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: all our listeners as well. I think I mentioned before 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: I finally they found me. I got jury duty. Did 19 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: they tell you, guys that, no, you actually got it? 20 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: Not yet. The audition is tomorrow. I don't know if 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: it's just to call it an audition, got it. Yeah, 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: I had one not too long ago, and I, you know, 23 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: I was just assured no one ever gets picked. I mean, 24 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: obviously some people get picked, um, but I totally got picked. 25 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: And I actually kind of I think I swayed the jury. 26 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: I think I swayed the jury. I kind of felt 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: like I did my civic duty and please don't ask 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: me to do it again for another like five years. 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: But Ben, godspeed, sir, and I hope you don't get picked. 30 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: I'm into it. I like, you know, I like the validation, 31 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, you get picked for 32 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: jury duty, you're a peer officially, it's totally appropriate for 33 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: the show. I actually, you know, they always asked, how 34 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: do you get that a jury duty? And you definitely 35 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: don't want to be caught trying to get out a 36 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: jury because that's totally illegal. Um. But I answered a 37 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: question very bluntly. They ask you these jury questions, you know, 38 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: something like do you think you could be you know, 39 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: completely um objective about a case? And I said something 40 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: the effect of, well, I do a lot of conspiracy 41 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: podcast stuff and a lot of true crime, and I 42 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: kind of feel like the government and you know, lawyers 43 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: are all inherently corrupt, and I just don't feel as 44 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: though I could be completely objective, And it sounds like 45 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: they picked me because of that, because it shows me 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: for that strange because you know they want honest answers. 47 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: You know, we'll get to the show, but real quick, 48 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: I know a lot of us listening today are possibly 49 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: screaming at their phones. Then tell them you believe in 50 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: jury nullification. It's a real thing. But the issue with 51 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: that is if you come in, uh, if you come 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: in too hot on jury selection and they know you're 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: like pranking numbers something, they do not respond. Well. Um, 54 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: so I will I will see if I can be 55 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: our man on the inside of the justice system. But also, 56 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: Matt Noel, the reason I'm bringing this up today is 57 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: because it makes me think that we are long overdue 58 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: for an episode on trial by jury. It's got a 59 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: lot of problems here in the US. That's great, yeah, 60 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: that it becomes one of the primary focuses in a 61 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: lot of true crime content exactly how a trial by 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: jury functions, what the problems are, and well sometimes potential 63 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: ways to fix it. But it's it's a complicated issue 64 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: and something I'd love to delve into deeper with you guys. Yeah, 65 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: let's absolutely do that. But before we do, or as 66 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: we're planning that, we'd love to hear your stories about 67 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: jury duty going well, going wrong, your thoughts. Uh. You know, 68 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: we do have legal professionals in the audience today as well, 69 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: so let us know conspiracy die hear Radio dot com. 70 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: You can also call us one three st d w 71 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: y t K. Today we are going to, uh, We're 72 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: going to hear from some people who have had their 73 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: own personal experiences, not with jury do but with things 74 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: they cannot necessarily explain. We're gonna visit folklore, philosophy, veterinary science, 75 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: and it just felt right. We're not actually going to 76 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: do that part. But and then we're gonna visit controversial medicine. 77 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: So Matt, what do you say? What do you say? 78 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: We begin with this really interesting story that you hipped 79 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: us too. Yes, Ben, we are heading over to a 80 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: message from Rannell. Here we go. Renell says, Hi, guys 81 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: and lady shout out to Dark Holiday over there. I 82 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: came across your podcast last year in the early days 83 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: of work from home boredom and was immediately hooked. I've 84 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: always been interested in unexplained and weird events, but stayed 85 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: away from the outlandish theories. So thank you for continuing 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: to create fascinating cont and in a thoughtful and entertaining manner. 87 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: It's very sweet. I have a story that I've been 88 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: debating sending to you that happened to me a few 89 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: years ago. My grandparents used to own property on a 90 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: lake off the gun Flint Trail in northern Minnesota, where 91 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: I spent a considerable amount of my summers as a kid. 92 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: There's no cell phone service and it's not unusual to 93 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: go days without seeing another person, even out on the lake. 94 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: The cabin had an upper level sunroom and deck overlooking 95 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: the woods down to the lake. Is very important for 96 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: the rest of the story. Upper level sunroom and a 97 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: deck overlooking the woods down to the lake. My grandpa 98 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: used to sit out on the deck at night and 99 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: would tell us stories about the glowing fairies that he 100 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: used to see while he was out there. He later 101 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: told us he had occasionally seen them pass through the 102 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: windows and into the cabin. We mostly attributed this to 103 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: the whiskey SODA's he would drink out on the deck 104 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: in the evenings. That's kind of funny Ronelle. Grandpa enjoyed 105 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: his whiskey, but Ronelle continues here. My Paw unfortunately passed 106 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: away in early two thousand sixteen, and I went to 107 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: visit him one last time in July with my mom 108 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: and my grandma before she put the cabin up for sale. 109 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: It was the night of July three, and my grandma 110 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: had already gone to sleep. The evening was clear. There 111 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: were no electrical storms that night or in the forecast. 112 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: My mom and I were in the sunroom, remember that's 113 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: the upstairs sunroom area. We had turned off all the 114 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: lights except for one over the sink and the the 115 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: adjacent kitchen, when we started to see what appeared to 116 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: be fireflies at the tree line outside. Now this is 117 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: a ellipsis here. I have never seen fireflies up there 118 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: before or after. The greenish white lights started to pulse 119 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: in time with each other, speeding up, and then suddenly 120 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: they all went dark and a roughly grapefruit sized sphere 121 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: lit up near the ground. It hovered for a short period, 122 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: moving slowly upwards. Then it started to gain speed and 123 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: quickly move up to the level of the deck, and 124 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: then it flew very fast over the roof and was gone. WHOA, right, 125 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: that was me, by the way. WHOA between first seeing 126 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: the sphere light up and it being gone was maybe 127 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: only five seconds or so, And shortly after it disappeared, 128 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: the light above the sink dimmed briefly. Okay, there's a 129 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: little bit more to this email. I kind of want 130 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: to save it for a second as we discussed some 131 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: of this, What does that sound like to you guys, 132 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: some firefly looking lights down by the lake, uh, you know, 133 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: viewing it from a higher above angle. Then all of 134 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: a sudden, those lights going away in a larger sphere 135 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: light uh being illuminated and then rising up and over 136 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: the roof. What do you guys think could be any 137 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: number of things? Will of the wisp perhaps Okay remember those? Okay? 138 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: All right? Um, certainly opportunities for optical illusions in that situation, 139 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: but it could be something more, especially with the water, agreed. 140 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: The water makes a big difference right there because of 141 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: possible reflections, possible all kinds of other optical illusions that 142 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,679 Speaker 1: could be happening. But there's also something in there about 143 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: ball lightning, which is a really weird phenomena that occurs 144 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: and it's it's a real thing. It's it's not a 145 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: made up thing. Um. But again, she already mentioned there's 146 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: no electrical storm, so that weird me out a little bit. 147 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: So let's continue in the email here. If my mother 148 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: hadn't been there and seen the same thing, I would 149 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: think I was mistaken or confused about what I saw. 150 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: She grew up in Illinois and there has been ball 151 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: lightning before, but swears this was a different thing. There's 152 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: a pole out in the front of the cabin where 153 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: the phone and electrical line comes in, which is in 154 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: the direction that the sphere flew towards. The whole area 155 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: is composed of bedrock and magnetite, So the only reasonable 156 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: explanation we've been able to come up with is some 157 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: sort of what is this peco electric effect which could 158 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: possibly explain the light dimming afterwards. So right there there's 159 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: the story. Ronell attached some pictures to this message for us, 160 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: which actually shows the cabin out there in the middle 161 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: of the woods, and it also shows the vantage point 162 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: from that upper level deck where the sun room is 163 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: overlooking the dock down there by the lake. And I 164 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: thought this was a really interesting story. I don't know, 165 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I I don't even know what else to 166 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: say about it besides the concept of the grandfather associating 167 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: these lights that he had seen before in the past 168 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: with fairies with being some kind of magical being that 169 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: exists out there in the woods by the lake, and 170 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: I don't I wanted to look up the folklore I 171 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: was thinking about you guys when I was looking some 172 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,599 Speaker 1: of the stuff up. There is fair like Faye folklore 173 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: within the United States, and I don't know a ton 174 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: about it. I know that some of it originates from 175 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: indigenous people that lived on this land before you know, 176 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: the United States was ever a thing, or ever a 177 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: glint in the eye of some revolutionary um. And there's 178 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: some really fascinating stuff that I've never heard of, and 179 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: I think it might be worth a full episode to 180 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: to go over some of the I don't know FAYE 181 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: in the USA. That sounds wow, Why that was brilliant. No, 182 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: it's true. I think of you know, when I think 183 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: of fairy folk, I think of Midsummer Night's Dream and 184 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: more contemporarily UM a lot of Neil Gaiman's work, or 185 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: Sandman in particular, there's a lot of fairies that play 186 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: UM serious roles in that work, and also in Pan's Labyrinth. 187 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: Um the fairies are kind of creepy and have like 188 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: sharp nasty teeth. I kind of was into that depiction. 189 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: But all of these obviously places not said in the 190 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: United States. Well, there's there's an interesting aspect here, just 191 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: to interject for a second, because what we see it's 192 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: similar to the evolution of abduction stories. Right where there 193 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: were change leans, there were alleged hidden sentient groups that 194 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: would take humans for one reason or another, maybe to 195 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: uh go bowling with them, like in the rip fam 196 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: Winkles story, or maybe to steal their children. And then 197 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: later with the evolution of UFOs and aliens and the zeitgeist, uh, 198 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: those stories remain the same, but they just got new 199 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: things mad lived in. So what to me is what 200 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: what's fascinating about this? As I love the point you're 201 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: bringing up regarding pre European American folklore, uh folklore on 202 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: this continent, because those stories and those sorts of beings 203 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: exist in pretty much every culture, and it's something that 204 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: I think would be very interesting for those of us 205 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: in the crowd today who consider themselves extremely skeptical. You 206 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: have to ask yourself. Why was there never an entirely 207 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: skeptical community that developed independently, but instead there is a 208 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: clear line of a clear correlation. Virtually every community has 209 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: created some sort of um story or explanation or narrative 210 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: or mythology about these events, from you know, fay like 211 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: creatures like brownies elves, to the translation across the world 212 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: will often be something like the hidden folk, and it's strange, 213 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: it's strange little remember the little like are the borrowers, 214 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: the little people that live in your walls and stuff. 215 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: I always enjoyed those stories. Yes, and this is what 216 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring up there. I was reading about 217 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: Cherokee legends folklore from specifically the Cherokee tribe. Part of 218 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: their mythology includes a race of immortal spirit people that 219 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: feels very similar to fairies. I don't know how similar, 220 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: at least according to some of the light reading I 221 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: was going on the subject. I think I think they're 222 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: called new nehe new neh he. I don't know how 223 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: to pronounce it correctly, but they are. It's translated as 224 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: the people who live anywhere or the people who live forever. 225 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: And it's a completely different um race of beings. A 226 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: it's a completely different subset of being. It's not a god, 227 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: it's not you know, a human. It's not a spirit 228 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: like a like a nature spirit or anything like that. Um, 229 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: it's not a ghost. It's it's it's none of these things. 230 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: It's this other, living, intelligent creature that exists almost very 231 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: much so, right, like just created from some different material 232 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: rather than clay or you know, like man was or 233 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: a smoke smokeless fire like the Jin. Do they have 234 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: any kind of ill intent associated with them in the folklore? 235 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: I know often spirits like that from a level at 236 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: all, Are Are they kind of neutral? I honestly don't know 237 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: enough yet. I just started learning about these mythical creatures, 238 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: and it does change. The way they're described does change 239 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: depending on which region you're in. With the Appalachian Mountains, 240 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: that's one of the main connective tissues for many of 241 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: the stories. But there are also stories a lot of 242 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: them surrounding fay like creatures near the Great Lakes of 243 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: the US. And this brings us back to something fascinating 244 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: about your experience right now. When you mentioned peco electric 245 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: the phenomenon of pezo electricity, I think all of our 246 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: our eyes lit up Peco electricity. Just to be clear 247 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: for anyone, the quick and dirty explanation of that is 248 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: the idea that certain materials can create an electric charge 249 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: when they have certain types of stress applied to them. 250 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: So it is. It is, I think a very reasonable explanation. 251 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: Maybe it could explain something that we're optical illusions to 252 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: explain something about what's going on with the Great Lakes. 253 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: But as we said, these stories are very old. They're 254 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: also universal. As um longtime listeners know, I have uh 255 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: roots of a sort in in Appalachia, and I can 256 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: confirm that these things, to your question, Noll, are not. 257 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: It's like the Jin are considered individuals first and foremost. 258 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: They might be Christian, they might be atheists, they might 259 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: follow Islam. The New Hey are similar or beans like 260 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: that are similar in that they have human relationships with 261 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: them are often kind of defined as if then so 262 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be really friendly to the Cherokee and 263 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: that folklore, but they're in general friendly to lost wanderers. 264 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: So overall they're very h they're very Appalachian and attitude. 265 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: I would say, they'll have you, they'll have you over. Yeah, 266 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: that's great. There there's a book I want to get 267 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: our hands on called Native American Legends of the Great 268 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: Lakes and the Mississippi Valley. It's written by Catherine Barry Judson. 269 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: And it looks like there's a free version of it. 270 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: Oh no, it's just a preview. But there's a version 271 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: of it on archive dot org. So I want to 272 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: actually get a physical copy if possible. The only problem 273 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: is the thing is published in yeah, nineteen fourteen. Uh yeah, 274 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll see or if you got one, 275 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: send it our way, or at least tell us where 276 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: to find it. But yeah, I just want to say 277 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: thanks for no for sending that in as a great story. 278 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: I it sounds like you sold the cabin I guess 279 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: so maybe you won't be able to experience this particular 280 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: vantage again to see something down there, but who knows. 281 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: That's uh that area over there, gun Flint what was it? 282 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: Gun Flint Trail. It's right, it's on Lake Superior. It 283 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: looks really fascinates right at the edge of Canada and 284 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: the United States inside the United States. Really cool. So 285 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: thanks so much. We'll be right back with another message 286 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: from you. And we have returned. We have not returned unaccompanied. 287 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: We're bringing Amy with us on air. Amy, here's what 288 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: you said. Amy wrote in to say, Hi, my name 289 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: is Amy, and the name can be used. About ten 290 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: years ago, when I was still kind of young and 291 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: I'd done some dumb stuff, a doctor came to me 292 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: in the hospital room and asked if I would participate 293 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: in a treatment that would stimulate my heart rate, among 294 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: other things, while I was asleep. Of course I said yes, 295 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: because who doesn't want the benefits of exercising while sleeping? Amy, 296 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: you put in a question mark and two exclamation points, 297 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: which I feel is appropriate in that situation. It's the 298 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: only thing in my mind that would redeem sleep in general. 299 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: That's me editorializing with the story. Only on the morning 300 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: of this treatment, says Amy, while wires were being secured 301 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: my forehead, did I realized that this was electroshock treatment. 302 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: I thought of it as something from the nineteenth century 303 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: and didn't even realize it was still a thing. But 304 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: as sure was, and it was every bit as creepy 305 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: as imagined. A small room full of rhythmically beeping machines, restraints, 306 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: the dark of early dawn, the only time when the 307 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: anesthesiologist was available for this and the final command to 308 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: quote count backward from ted with tooth guard in place, 309 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: eyes kept shut, and mask in place. Then waking a 310 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: couple of hours later in a different room with people 311 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,239 Speaker 1: asking you where you are and what year? It is? 312 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: No pause here for a second for you, guys. Have 313 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: you ever been in a situation, maybe post surgery or 314 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: something where you woke up and someone has to give 315 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: you like a cognitive evaluation? Thankfully no, but it terrifies me. 316 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: I've never actually been put under under, never had a surgery, 317 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: an invasive surgery. I had a bad experience with with 318 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: a then legal substance that gave me a really bad trip, 319 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: and when I came to, I had to be re 320 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: oriented to all consciousness. It was bad. You had to 321 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: come back from being a part of a particle of 322 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: a interconnected universe that is only learning to know itself 323 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: further and more intimately, and you had to get back 324 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: to the flesh bag. Right. Hey, Yeah, I was a 325 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: pixel inside an ever rotating grid and I was trying 326 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: to find my way to the center, but I didn't 327 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: understand what center was. It was bad. There is no center, 328 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: you know what. Definitely could not hold that's for sure. Yeah, 329 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: shout out to Yates and at Champ. But the the 330 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: the reason I ask is because anybody has been through 331 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: this knows it's enormously disconcerting feeling. And I'm not going 332 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 1: to say their name on error because this story perhaps 333 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: does not paint them in the best light. But my 334 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: favorite version of this is a a friend of mine 335 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: got into a pretty serious accident a number of years ago, 336 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: car accident, and this is a guy who was kind 337 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: of off the grid, kind of unplugged. He's the kind 338 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: of guy wouldn't have consented to go to a hospital 339 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: if he were conscious. And he got that you know, 340 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: that assessment light, flashlight in your eyes, you know, let's 341 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: check dial adship, blah blah blah, And they asked him 342 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: who the president was and he had no idea, and 343 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: his family had to explain, like, look, he's a little weird. 344 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: He didn't know before he got hit by a car. 345 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: He's just not tuned in. So you have to be 346 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: careful what kind of question to ask. That's why people 347 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: ask what year it is. It's something most people know. 348 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: Back to Amy, Amy, you said, now about ten years later, 349 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: I'm fine, healthy, have gameful employment, a nice home, friends, 350 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: and a good life where I can do whatever I 351 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: want while listening to podcast after work. I don't know 352 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: whether this procedure contributed or not. There's a lot of 353 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: contra versy about it, I know, And even as a 354 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: recipient of this treatment, I'm on the fence. I don't 355 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: remember a lot of things. It would seem like I'd 356 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: remember most good, but some bad. And it's kind of 357 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: spooky to be told about these events by friends and 358 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,239 Speaker 1: family with no recollection. I can't help but think that 359 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: I just matured and chilled out, and that the e 360 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: c T wasn't necessary at all. Still, others swear by it. Yet, 361 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: even as a recipient, I wonder if it has any 362 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: more basis than it did in the nineteenth century. Mm hmm, 363 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: this is this is a weird one. We're talking a 364 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,959 Speaker 1: little bit off air, Um and Amy. I think at 365 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: least a few of us agree with that kind of 366 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 1: mental image you have when you first hear electroshock therapy, 367 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: like no what it was to make you think? Yeah, 368 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: I mean it makes me think of like, you know, 369 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: bear bite down on this spoon while we jack your 370 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: brain with however many volts and you convulse wildly on 371 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: the on the table. I also think that people don't 372 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: really remember this. I think because it's traumatic. But that 373 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: movie returned into oz Um, which is very terrifying and 374 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: uh has so much nightmare fuel in it. Um. Little 375 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: Dorothy Gale beginning is in like a psychiatric facility, presumably 376 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: because she won't stop going on about oz and somewhere 377 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: over the Rainbow and they're about to give her shock 378 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: therapy when like there's a power outage or something and 379 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: she escapes. But yeah, you think of it as being 380 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: like a very barbaric, you know, relic of kind of 381 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: like the sand the age of the sanitarium or whatever, 382 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: you know. Um, but it is you know, the Mayo 383 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: Clinic as a page on it. That kind of demystifies it. 384 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: It is still done today under you know, anesthetics and 385 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: you know with munch lower voltage and I'm certain not 386 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: enough to make you spas out on the table like that, 387 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: but I can see exactly where the perceptions come from. Yeah, 388 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,239 Speaker 1: the possibility here, or at least if someone tells you 389 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: the possibility, who's like selling you this as a treatment 390 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: or is it t dc S trans No t c 391 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: d S transcranials. Yeah, someone's selling you that concept of like, 392 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: look we can we can pass electrical an electrical charge 393 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: through your brain. And what it's gonna do. It's gonna 394 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: be amazing, all these positive things, strengthening all these connections, 395 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: making new connections. Maybe dude, you're gonna it's so great 396 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: and look all you gotta do is chill. That's all 397 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: you gotta do. Uh. It sounds amazing. Um, it also 398 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: sounds really dangerous, That's what I would say. So it's 399 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: both right and and I guess it's just how much 400 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: are you willing to risk? How much is science willing 401 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: to risk? If it just completely does damage to somebody 402 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: or if it really does improve you, You're gonna have 403 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: to go through a lot of trials. And I don't 404 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: think I don't think there's been enough trials. Maybe I'm 405 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: just not up on the research. Well, it is. It 406 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: is approved by the US Food and Drug Administration. It is. 407 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: It's just like cereal. Yeah, the uh so there you go. 408 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: Electrical convulsive therapy as safe as what's that serial? The 409 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: only raisin brand? You like? You monster? I like I 410 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,959 Speaker 1: like raisin brand crunch. Okay, all right, get it right, 411 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: I feel bad. I feel like I just called Mennonite 412 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: Amish or something. I'm sorry. There's nut clusters is what 413 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: takes it to the next level. Regular old raisin brand. 414 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: That's your Grandpa Cereal right there. I'm sorry, No self 415 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: respecting millennial should be eating raisin brand. I feel like 416 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: it's your mouth. It's up to you what you put 417 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: in it. I got your back, bro. But with that, 418 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: with that being said, um, you're absolutely writing there. There 419 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: is controversy behind this, and part of that controversy, part 420 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: of that controversy is inseparable from the at times troubling 421 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: history of this kind of therapy or this I would 422 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: even say this kind of technique because it wasn't always 423 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: used in a way that would solidly be defended as therapy. 424 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 1: And long time listeners you know that. I I of 425 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: course love any chance for us to talk about real 426 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: life thinking caps T M S, T dcs. UH. This 427 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: this stuff is fascinating, but like you said, Matt, there's 428 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: there needs to be much more research done on it. Uh. 429 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: And I say this as a guy who did mad 430 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: science together one of these transcranial direct current simulation devices. UH. 431 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: And thankfully I don't think I hurt myself, but we'll 432 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: we'll have to see in a few years. What was 433 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: it like? It was it like a metal calendar with 434 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: like wire leads attached to it from a car battery 435 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: or something like how d I y are we talking here? Ben? 436 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: Pretty mug diver. To be honest with you, it's um. 437 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: The main reason I felt comfortable doing it, and Matt, 438 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: you know all this is because I was it was 439 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: these things were an illegal gray area for a long time, 440 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: and I kept trying to call companies and buy one 441 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: of these things before endeavoring to build it myself. And 442 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: then we're all these there are all these issues which 443 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: I understand the importance of ethics and human experimentation, but 444 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: they you could like I would call places and they 445 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: would say, oh, okay, what you know what institutionary with? 446 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: You know, what's the paperwork on your study? Like I'm 447 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: I'm with this podcast, but it's not really about that. 448 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: This is just something I want to do. So the 449 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: study is me. The sample size is one. I'll sign 450 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: whatever you want to get rid of liability. But they 451 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: had to be careful with that because even with very 452 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: small amounts of current, right, even with lower levels of electricity. 453 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: You are messing with probably the least understood organ in 454 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: the human body. Right. We don't know how it works. 455 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: We don't know everything about how it works when it's 456 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: working the way it's supposed to. Uh, but we do 457 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: know that at times his story work. Ley. The use 458 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: of electro convulsive therapy as you would call it today, 459 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: has been said to have negative impacts of one sort 460 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: or another, like amy. What you're describing is a kind 461 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: of retrograde amnesia, right, that's one of the symptoms. I 462 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: think we all clocked. And according to the A p 463 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: A from a two thousand one report that's the American 464 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: Psychiatric Association, there is some retrograde amnesia, and in some 465 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: patients the recovery from this retrograde amnesia may be incomplete. 466 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: They also claim that e c T can result in 467 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: persistent or permanent memory loss. But on the flip side, 468 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: on the positive side, e c T has been used 469 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: for cases of severe depression, like not not someone just 470 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: saying I'm feeling down on Twitter. No, I mean it's 471 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: like people who are in danger of maybe self harm 472 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: or just are not able to function. It's certainly like 473 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: a maybe not last resort, but it's definitely up there. Um. 474 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: There's It's funny. I found a site from U T. 475 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: Southwestern Medical Center that reads like a laundry list of 476 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: like this is why this is great, and it's like 477 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: trying to demystify and it definitely has some good information, 478 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: but the way it's listed out, it's clearly trying to 479 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: sell you on this as a as a as a treatment. Um. 480 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: But they do use the word um, the phrase medically 481 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: uh triggered medically controlled seizure UM, so you know that 482 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: is what's happening. Um. And while they might not patients 483 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: might not jerk around convulse wildly, you know, they do 484 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: jerk somewhat and there are you know, some involuntary movements. UM. 485 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's very much a thing, and it's 486 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: certainly been It's probably come a long way, but has 487 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: it though? It's like, I mean, how it doesn't get 488 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: much more spasic than Okay, we're gonna shoot some electricity 489 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: into your brain. Like we've known how to generate varying 490 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: degrees of electricity for a long time. I wonder what 491 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: specifically is different other than the fact that they're putting 492 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: you to sleep. It's yeah, it's not a bad question. 493 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: So a big part of it is the location, like 494 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: what what section of the brain is receiving this stimulation. 495 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: And then also another thing because because I clocked uh, 496 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: I clocked Southwestern as well. Another thing that has evolved 497 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: that's similar to e c T is m ST, where 498 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: which is the short for magnetic seizure therapy. You can 499 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: see why doctors probably one of this MST instead of magnets, magnets, magnets. 500 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: You know, someone figured it out. But this these treatments 501 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: can be important, they can have measurable positive impact. But 502 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: we have to remember again nothing occurs in a vacuum. 503 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: And the entire time that people were looking into the 504 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: use of e c T as a as a treat 505 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: for depression and specific we have to remember there was 506 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: an entirely different field of experts that were researching antidepressants, 507 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: and as antidepressants evolved, they became an increasingly viable and 508 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: profitable Actually, yeah, let's flip that. You're right, it became 509 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: an increasingly profitable and then viable alternative to treatments for depression. 510 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: With this in mind, when we think about these kind 511 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: of experiments, first we have to be really clear that 512 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: we're not doctors. This is not medical advice. But when 513 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: you are intentionally triggering a seizure in the brain, which 514 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: is what is happening with this therapy, the entire point 515 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: of it is to cause changes in brain chemistry that 516 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: can reverse symptoms of certain medical conditions. And that last 517 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: clause of what I just said cause changes in bringing 518 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: chemistry that can reverse symptoms of certain mental conditions. The 519 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: question is would you do would you shock yourself in 520 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: an attempt at wellness if you could simply take a pill? 521 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: Also on the profit mode of ECT, treatment is recommended 522 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: in like reps of ten to fifteen sessions. I'm sure 523 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: those sessions aren't cheap. And uh, antidepressants are something you 524 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: have to take on a regular basis. You don't get 525 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: you're not you know, you don't get fifteen pills of 526 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: Lexa pro and then you're better forever. It's I gotta 527 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: say that in hearing you describe that, Ben just now, 528 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: it makes me think of like this is sort of 529 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: the psychiatric equivalent of like banging the side of the 530 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: TV when it's like glitching out. You know, in the 531 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: hopes that you're banging will trigger the right thing among 532 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: all the other wrong things that it could also trigger, 533 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: and if you do it enough times, maybe you'll get 534 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: it to where the picture is like you know, tracking 535 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: correctly again, um, because it sure seems like a blunt 536 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: instrument type you know process to me. But in this case, 537 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: you're I don't know what the TV. It's like you're 538 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: adding an additional electrical plug to your television besides the 539 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: primary one, and then you plug that one into just 540 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: to see what happens if a little extra electricity just 541 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: for a second, you know what I mean? Like, how 542 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: how did you sell that idea in the early days? 543 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: Just like you know, what's amazing electricity? I'm just saying, 544 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: what are you guys doing this weekend? Let's you've seen 545 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: all these famous experiments where we you know, electrocute to 546 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: elephant until it dies. You've seen them. Hey, let's try 547 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: it on some humans. How about you just for a second, 548 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: just just like a second. I can't emphasize how much 549 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: I want that recap to really have somebody who's saying 550 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: just per second over and over again, like rights, they're writers, 551 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: they're plugging the person in there, like okay, okay, what's 552 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: that what's that? Just what? What? What? What? What? Oh? Yeah, yeah, 553 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: we lost them, So that's like that's why you know, 554 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: it's your point. It is intentionally causing seizures, and the 555 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the controversy around it is whether this 556 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: is responsible use, whether the benefits outweigh the possible risk. 557 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: And that historical image just doesn't look good because in 558 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: the earlier days, patient slash victims were not given anesthetics, 559 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: so they were actively seizing. If you can see me 560 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: shaking around, and I'm not making light of this, this 561 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: could result in fractured bones, memory loss, a rogue's gallery 562 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: of other potentially harmful side effects. But right now, it 563 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: might surprise some folks to know that e c T 564 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: can be recommended because some people, for one reason or another, 565 00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: cannot take uh an antidepressant. It's it's actually this surprised me. 566 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: Might surprise you too, Amy. Uh. E c T has 567 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: been specifically recommended for pregnant patients because you know, you can't. 568 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: You have to be very careful with what you ingest 569 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: right if you're expecting, because it will affect the child. Yeah, 570 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: but your brain is is making all those involuntary processes. 571 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: That's the thing that's like, uh, I would recommend get 572 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,439 Speaker 1: you a second opinion. Does amniotic fluid conduct electricity? One 573 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: would think, I don't know. I mean, I know that 574 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: they're different regions, but still really just seems way off. 575 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: And then also for maybe older adults who cannot tolerate 576 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: certain side effects of drugs, Like what we're saying is 577 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: right now, the establishment has considers e C t UH controversial, 578 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: but they believe it does have efficacy in certain situations. Uh. 579 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: This is a topic that's endlessly fascinating on a personal level, 580 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: I think to a lot of us. UH. We may 581 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: end up diving into this in the future in a 582 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: full episode, but for now, what we would say is Amy. 583 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: First off, congratulations, thank you frying this fantastic letter, and 584 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: so glad to hear that you are doing well. We 585 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: want to make sure anybody who's hearing this who has 586 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: considered treatments like these are considered shooting electricity into your brain. 587 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: Take it from me, folks, I know it sounds really cool. 588 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: I am on board with it in the realist way. 589 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: I am tend toes down on this, but learn from 590 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: my mistakes. Don't mcgiver's stuff. You can you can buy 591 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: those kids if you're really interested. Now, I think the 592 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: laws of loose and a little bit. But if you 593 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: were messing with forces you don't really understand, and no 594 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: one really understands the human brain, get an expert. Get 595 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: an expert to help you through that process and advise 596 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: you on whether or not you need to consider it 597 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: in the first place. I still use those big like 598 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: suction cup things that go on your temples, or they 599 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: advanced past that. I've seen teen ones that are more 600 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: netting expandable and it kind of fits on your brain, 601 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: on your head, no sculliers. I just picture the torture 602 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: seeing in Princess Bride also true. Can you guys remember 603 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: that Mostly Dead. It's the machine that's supposed to like 604 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: take a year off his life with every twist of 605 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: the but you know, yeah, by making him listen to 606 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: water or something. It was weird. It wasn't clear how 607 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: that machine actually work. But you're right, he did have 608 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: some electrodey type things on his on his his noggin. There, 609 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: what a good story. So we ended. We ended on 610 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: that note. But please, if you if you have experience 611 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,959 Speaker 1: with this as a positive or negative, we would love 612 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: to hear from you. As always, you can drop us 613 00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: a line directly. We'll tell you how to do that 614 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: again at the end of the show. But for now, 615 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: let's take a break for a word from our sponsor, 616 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: who I don't think will be a t DCS device, 617 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: but if so, let the chips fall as they will. 618 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: We'll be back and here's more from Ken Moore microwaves. 619 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: Don't take them apart like Ben did. I should have 620 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: never told you that story. All right, and we're back, 621 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: and we're gonna wrap today's episode up with kind of 622 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 1: a fun one. It's a call back to a previous 623 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: fun email we got about Haunted in relating to our 624 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: Haunted Objects episode. We I think y'all will remember this, 625 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: especially if you're on the Here's where it Gets Crazy 626 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: Facebook group, because I believe a really clever listener made 627 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: a like movie poster about the blue ball. It was 628 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: like a horror movie kind of poster situation at Eric. 629 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: Thanks Ben, you're the best with with remembering names. I 630 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: remember the piece and I loved it. Uh what what 631 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 1: was the tagline? It was like it's time to play 632 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: with your balls or something like that. It was good. 633 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: It was and we I'm sure one of us actually 634 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: said that because we're children. But um, that was a 635 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: fun one because it was definitely like it had that 636 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: are you Afraid of the dark kind of vibe where 637 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: it's kind of innocuous and a little bit you know, corny, 638 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: but then it does kind of gets you in the 639 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: end where and then of course it came for one 640 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 1: last appearance. Um. And then you know, when you hear 641 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: stories like that about haunted objects or uh, something that 642 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: seemed just too crazy to be coincidence, you usually find 643 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: a way to justify or explain it away with a 644 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: coincidence or mad I believe your idea was that it 645 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: was a pack of these balls that had been purchased 646 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: in one go and they just kind of, you know, 647 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: found their way back into you know, circulation. I guess 648 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: even after one of them was thrown away, there was 649 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: another one lurking in a hamper somewhere and it just 650 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: ends up rolling along like balls do. Um. But a 651 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: listener named cassam and Drop wrote in with an alternate theory, Um, 652 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: that brings up a concept that I was not aware of. Um, 653 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: but it definitely is present and plenty of like pop 654 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: culture and stuff uh, something called resists. Oh boy, resistentialism, um, 655 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: the long version of it being counter phenomenal logical resistentialism. 656 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: We'll get to what that is in a minute, but 657 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: here's the email. Uh greeting has been mad and Noel. 658 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 1: While you recounted the story of a certain potentially haunted 659 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 1: object and discussed your theories of what could have been 660 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: causing this ball to seemingly keep reappearing, you also pose 661 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,439 Speaker 1: the question as to what the ball's intentions may have been. 662 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: Did it want to play or was it intent on 663 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: tripping someone? This brought to mind the term I learned 664 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: several years ago. Here it is again, see if I 665 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: can do it. Counter phenomenal logical resistentialism or just resistentialism. 666 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: It refers to the possibility or belief that inanimate objects 667 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: have minds of their own and innately dislike people. Yeah, 668 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: which I just love. I no longer have the book 669 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: I read about this, and I think it was called Weird, 670 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: Scary and Unusual Stories and Facts. But as I recall, 671 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: it gave examples as to what else this phenomenon might explain, 672 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: including someone quote losing their keys in there, a bouncy 673 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: ball bouncing out of control, and the continuous disappearance of 674 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: spoons from a certain institution or hospital. Um, I believe 675 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: it said there was actually a study done at the 676 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 1: institution tracking its mysterious and repetitious decline in utensils. This 677 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: is true. We're gonna get to that. Well. I'm not 678 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: exactly a believer in counter phenomenological resistentialism myself. I find 679 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: it an interesting idea and a fun term. I thought 680 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: you might like to know if you didn't already, thank 681 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: you for all the work and effort you do on 682 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: the excellent show and for keeping us informed on so 683 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: many topics. They would rather we be kept in the 684 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,879 Speaker 1: dark about Cassandra. And then she says to feel free 685 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: to use her name. Um, so we did because I 686 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: like the name Cassandra a lot. Ben, you're familiar with 687 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: this concept, um. And by the way, exactly so. Socks, you, kitchen, utensils, 688 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: you know, t shirts, Uh, so many little things like 689 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: that that I just feel like everyone has the shared 690 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: experience of constantly being you know, diminishing supply of these 691 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: things over time. UM. Easy to explain away and just 692 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: well they're not that big a deal. Spoons. You might 693 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: just take one with you for a picnic and leave it. 694 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: No one really cares that much, but I still think 695 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: it's a little bit ridiculous to the degree to which 696 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,240 Speaker 1: I losets Ben. What was your experience with this concept 697 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: and what do you associated with? Uh? Yeah, So first 698 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: we have to consider that too many people this idea 699 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,240 Speaker 1: is a thought experiment or a little bit purposely tongue 700 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: in cheek, you know what I mean. But it builds 701 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: on just like uh Reynauld's earlier story about folklore and 702 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: Faye in the US, the idea of this concept, resistentialism 703 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: builds on the very old concepts that are that are 704 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 1: kind of like animals, the idea that objects like humans 705 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: may have some sort of soul or sentience or their 706 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: own background palette of motivations and fears and desires. This 707 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: is a very very old concept. It's one of I 708 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: would argue it is one of the first things humans 709 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: did that's kind of like a religion, you know, and 710 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: it's still with us today. Like a lot of people 711 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: don't think of this as a religious act, but do 712 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: you guys name your stuff? We all know someone who 713 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: names a car, right, And so animism is the belief 714 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: that there are there's a multitude and innumerable multitude of 715 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: spiritual beings somehow concerned with human affairs, and just like 716 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 1: the faith, they can hurt you, they can harm you, 717 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: and you can't always trust them to be consistent in 718 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: that regard. So the big difference here they think it's 719 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: fast and eating kissandra is that uh in the idea 720 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: that that we're positing resistentialism. This idea is like a 721 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,839 Speaker 1: very pessimistic version of object based animism, right. It makes 722 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: me think of like a lot of stuff from you know, 723 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: literature and pop culture, like we need the Pooh or 724 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: for example, like the idea that toys have a life, 725 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: you know, or the velveteen rabbit. Um. There is another 726 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: story I remember very distinctly for when I was a 727 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: kid that was clearly what toy story was based on. 728 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: I can't ram what it was called, but it was 729 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: about the old school toy being supplanted by the new 730 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: shiny toy. Um that's like a spaceman or or like 731 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: an acrobat or something like that. I'm sure it's a 732 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: trope that has been repeated throughout history because it its 733 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: we have this innate need or desire anyway to anthropomorphize 734 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,399 Speaker 1: animals and and objects and the idea that things have personality. 735 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: But I'm with you then that it is more of 736 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: a thought experiment. I don't think anyone's actually saying your 737 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,720 Speaker 1: spoons are de materializing and showing up on another planet 738 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: or something. Matt, I'm just gonna put this out there. 739 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,959 Speaker 1: One of the most intelligent people that I've ever met, 740 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: and interesting talented. It was a former boss of of ours, 741 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: and she put into our heads, my head, the concept, 742 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: whether she was being serious or not, the concept that 743 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: if I treated my computer and my electronics well, if 744 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: I talked to them, if I comforted them when they 745 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 1: were having an issue, they would perform better and they 746 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: would not have so many issues with their software. If 747 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: I was kind to them, if I put them away gently, 748 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 1: if I made sure they were always clean. Uh. And 749 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: I swear to you I don't. I will not say 750 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: that I fully believe this, but I will say that 751 00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: I somehow, in doing these little rituals of making sure 752 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 1: or my machine was always taking care of well, I 753 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: felt like things were going better with me and my 754 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 1: computer as a relationship. You know, But that doesn't that 755 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: also mean that you, like back when you had to 756 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: do this, made sure to always defrag your hard drive 757 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: and like don't keep your desktop to clutter because you 758 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: have this certain respect that you bring to the situation 759 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: that maybe feels like a ritual to you, but it 760 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: also translates to functional acts of maintenance that you're doing 761 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: that some people might just let go because the biggest 762 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,399 Speaker 1: thing that causes computers have slowed down when people don't 763 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: realize their hard our drives are almost completely full, and 764 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: then they start to like, you know, log jam the 765 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,240 Speaker 1: whole system. So I think it was a good piece 766 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: of advice because I think it just you. You treated 767 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: it with respect, and you gave it its due and 768 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,920 Speaker 1: you you know, oiled it when it needed to be oiled. 769 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: I'm I'm now changing it to a tin man kind 770 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: of situation, but it's trunal. Uh. Matt and I had 771 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: the same boss, Rock sand If you're listening, you're amazing, 772 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 1: awesome and uh, and she really believed it, Matt, you know, 773 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: she told both of us the same thing. And I've 774 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,760 Speaker 1: done it before too. But it's it's almost you could argue, 775 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, like, No, I think you raised a very 776 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: good point. If you feel like you have a personal 777 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: relationship with a thing, you are more likely to treat 778 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: it with empathy and do like picture it liking stuff 779 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: you do. That's also another way to During the pandemic, 780 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: I think we all experienced a little bit more anthropomorphization 781 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,839 Speaker 1: than we had maybe bargained for, because also in our 782 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: computer has the faces of all of our disembodied friends 783 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: on it, and it's literally the only contact we have 784 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: with like humanity. Yeah, well, like look at the like 785 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: here's another one. Here's another one for people even you know, 786 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: we're talking to the skeptics here right uh, and I'm 787 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: I'm with you, guys, like I Matt got in my 788 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 1: head too. I also talked to objects and I name them. 789 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,120 Speaker 1: You know, I think you only have to worry if 790 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: they start talking back. But even then it is kind 791 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,919 Speaker 1: of comforting. It is it is, you know what I mean, 792 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 1: someone's talking to me right when my machete is like, 793 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: oh you're getting out there. Then I'm like, a yeah, 794 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: good call Mark. But but the Marcus. But the the 795 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: thing I noticed and I want to hear from our 796 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:26,360 Speaker 1: our friends listening today, animals were inanimate objects. I noticed 797 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 1: that I was anthropomorphizing a ton of stuff in my kitchen, 798 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: and I think this is universal. I realized I have 799 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: one spoon that I think of as like the bad spoon, 800 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: and I can't explain it. I'm just like it knows 801 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: what it did. It's up to something. It's the bad spoon. 802 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 1: I haven't thrown it away, and I'm I'm at it, impass. 803 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: That's definitely don't throw it away. That's the worst thing 804 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: you could do. You don't want to put that bad 805 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 1: energy out into the world, man, because then it's on you. Um. 806 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: But it's so funny, like the whole you're you're you're 807 00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: being nice to your computer thing. Plants are living things, 808 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: but I will think of them kind of as an 809 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: animate object. Right. A lot of people talk to plants 810 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: and they say that that makes them better. Watch out, 811 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,839 Speaker 1: Doc and I both I think have strong feelings on this. 812 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,400 Speaker 1: I I do believe that plants will tend to, um, 813 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: we'll tend to have a better life if if you're 814 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: talking to them, And maybe it's just like what you're saying, Well, 815 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: maybe it's because you're interacting on that level. You're more 816 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,280 Speaker 1: likely to water it, you're more likely to be aware 817 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,359 Speaker 1: of health conditions in the plant. But also you know, 818 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,239 Speaker 1: maybe they're just lonely. How long does one of these 819 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,719 Speaker 1: conversations last is what I want to know, Like, is 820 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 1: this is this efficient for me to say, hey, buddy, 821 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: looking good? Hey, no comment is fine? Ben, okay? For 822 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,360 Speaker 1: my purposes? How do I get started talking to plants? 823 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 1: That's my question because I really I'm not joking when 824 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,719 Speaker 1: I said I really do want to be a good 825 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,560 Speaker 1: plant dad, and I've done pretty well. But like I 826 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: sometimes over water them, and that is just as bad 827 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: as underwatering them. It just it sort of speaks to 828 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,880 Speaker 1: my character. Sometimes I just like I just insist upon myself. 829 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,480 Speaker 1: I just need to really nurture things until they just 830 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,080 Speaker 1: crush them. You know, I'm kidding, um, But how do 831 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:16,000 Speaker 1: I get started with my my plant interaction? Well, uh, 832 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: I don't know that. It sounds like we're doing a 833 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,880 Speaker 1: little relationship advice, all right, So this is we're gonna do. No, 834 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 1: We're gonna set up a tiny mirror near the plant, 835 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,040 Speaker 1: and you're gonna make eye contact with yourself, and you're 836 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: gonna hold a little therapy session, except where instead of 837 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,359 Speaker 1: referring to you as you or me or NOL, you're 838 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,960 Speaker 1: just You're You're just gonna talk to the plant, and 839 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 1: plant's name is going to be Sam. You're gonna say, 840 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,839 Speaker 1: ye know that the plant is your father, and you're 841 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 1: going to uh, so you will be the son of Sam. 842 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,919 Speaker 1: But I hate my father and I have to punch 843 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: the plant. The plant will talk back to you, give 844 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 1: you very specific instructions and sorry, no, I love this. 845 00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 1: I love this idea. I do have a plant named 846 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 1: nige all uh that I have named So I'm I'm 847 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: on my way um with this whole idea. But but 848 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: the resistent resistentialism is, like you said, been the kind 849 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,839 Speaker 1: of very cranky, pessimistic alter ego of this idea of 850 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: talking to your plants and they'll be nice to you. 851 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: We're talking to your computer and it'll you know, not 852 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,800 Speaker 1: break um. Because this posits the objects of all kinds 853 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: hate us and want to do us harm or at 854 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 1: the very least inconvenience us by disappearing spontaneously. Well because yeah, 855 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,719 Speaker 1: we're just using what we take. But also we're we're 856 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: look how look how the human species treats itself. You know, UM, 857 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: it treats objects in order of magnitude. Worse, we we 858 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: are discussing this um to the utmost of our ability, Cassandra. 859 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: But I feel like I would be remiss if I 860 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: didn't point out the etymology of this term. When we 861 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: say it's a thought experiment, when we say it's a 862 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,200 Speaker 1: little tongue in cheek. It was invented or coined by 863 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: a humorist named Paul Old Jettings. It's a British writer. 864 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,359 Speaker 1: It's kind of like a Lewis Grizzard of his day. 865 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 1: For anybody who remembers Lewis Grizzard or oh, what's that 866 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:20,240 Speaker 1: other guy? He's got a sister. I'm so bad at this. Yes, David, yeah, nice, 867 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,120 Speaker 1: nice would okay. I was the guy who went into Blockbuster. 868 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I'm looking for that movie there's 869 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 1: music in a Day. You know that guy with the 870 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:33,480 Speaker 1: face and the coach, the guy with hair, Matt, he 871 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,759 Speaker 1: really mailed it. You not the manager of the John 872 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: Cusack that did have a nice face and nice hair. 873 00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: I alluded to it, but didn't mention it. And we 874 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,920 Speaker 1: were running long. I just want to just let everyone know. 875 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 1: There was a study that looked at tea spoons specifically, 876 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,879 Speaker 1: I believe in Melbourne, Australia, at a research institute a facility, 877 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,840 Speaker 1: and they like they gave him a half life score. 878 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,320 Speaker 1: These teaspoons depending on where they originated, whether it was 879 00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 1: in a common area or an area that was more 880 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 1: like voted to a particular branch of of research. Um. 881 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 1: And I think you guys should just go look into 882 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,640 Speaker 1: that yourselves. This would be some good supplemental reading, because 883 00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 1: we I think we've we've set our piece. Um. The 884 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,319 Speaker 1: takeaway is that, yeah, a lot of teaspoons disappear. No 885 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,919 Speaker 1: one copped in the office to fully removing the teaspoons 886 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: from the building. So the jury is out as so 887 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,920 Speaker 1: what happened. There were a few arrant teaspoons that were 888 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,799 Speaker 1: found on desktops and you know, squirreled away somewhere, maybe 889 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,280 Speaker 1: some light hoarders or something. But there were an unungodly 890 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,560 Speaker 1: amount of teaspoons that went missing. And when they applied 891 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 1: that statistic to like the larger you know, United Kingdom, uh, 892 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,320 Speaker 1: it was staggering number. It was, you know, millions and 893 00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,239 Speaker 1: millions of teaspoons going missing each you know, I bet 894 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,440 Speaker 1: it was. But it was a capuchin in the in 895 00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,560 Speaker 1: one of the ventilation shafts. You've seen it before. I've 896 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 1: seen it before. Everything everybody isn't that the ending to 897 00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 1: a Sherlock Homes story or something where it was a 898 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,360 Speaker 1: monkey with razor the whole time, stealing all the teaspoons. 899 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,200 Speaker 1: It's almost always I think it was a reference to community. 900 00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 1: I don't yeah, yeah, yeah, and he's you know, that's 901 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: the name of the monkey. Oh yeah, but uh but yeah, 902 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,239 Speaker 1: the I am. I am a boarder, you know, nol. 903 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,719 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by studies like this. Also, I am gonna 904 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,360 Speaker 1: profile and I feel like my spoon is responsible. I 905 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 1: like it is the subject of a horror movie, bad spoon. Right, 906 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,840 Speaker 1: it's quiet, but it's like it's like the bad Seed, 907 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: but the bad the bad spoon. And I just just 908 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 1: in case anyone wants to google and look a little further, 909 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,480 Speaker 1: the study was done at a place called b m J. 910 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:44,720 Speaker 1: I'm this is not helping me. I need. I need 911 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,440 Speaker 1: what the B and the M and the J actually 912 00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,800 Speaker 1: stand for. The British Medical Journal. That's it, The British 913 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,239 Speaker 1: Medical Journal, which claims on its website anyway to be 914 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:58,399 Speaker 1: the leading medical research, news, education, opinion, and uh some 915 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,640 Speaker 1: other stuff in the United Kingdom. No. I literally just 916 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,759 Speaker 1: said British Medical Journal off top of my head. I'm sorry, dude, 917 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,840 Speaker 1: I I didn't know that was real. Okay, well it 918 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,560 Speaker 1: was super helpful, Matt, because it totally is real. And 919 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,720 Speaker 1: as I was saying before, they fancy themselves to be uh. 920 00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,160 Speaker 1: They have quite a high opinion of themselves and they 921 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,840 Speaker 1: are ranked pretty highly by the journal what ranks journals, 922 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:25,920 Speaker 1: so uh good on them, The Journal of Journalistic Hierarchies exactly. 923 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,480 Speaker 1: You know, But I think this is a great place 924 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,919 Speaker 1: to leave off today. This was fun, Like you said, Ben, 925 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,000 Speaker 1: thought experiment to go through. But thanks Cassandra for the 926 00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,960 Speaker 1: the email. And um, I love the concept. It's gonna 927 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,719 Speaker 1: give me some interesting dreams tonight, I think. And if 928 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,640 Speaker 1: you are interested reading more Tory story esque adventures, highly 929 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,480 Speaker 1: recommend the comic book series The Stuff of Legend. It's awesome. 930 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,359 Speaker 1: I have no notes on it. Just check it out. 931 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 1: Let's know what you think. Also, let me know when 932 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:57,840 Speaker 1: they finally sew it up. I've got to stop falling 933 00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: in love with comic book series that have not ended. 934 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,799 Speaker 1: It is the worst. Uh. While we're you know, Black 935 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 1: Monday murders, Sorry, Matt, but while we're waiting for those 936 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 1: to come out, we cannot wait to hear from you, 937 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,440 Speaker 1: give us something else to read while while we're waiting 938 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,520 Speaker 1: for Black Monday Murders, the Stuff of Legend, Uber Invasion, 939 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,560 Speaker 1: and all those other great reads to finally finish their stories. Cassandra, 940 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:26,320 Speaker 1: Amy Rinnell, everybody who has wrote in and called as always, 941 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,719 Speaker 1: thank you for tuning in. We cannot wait to hear 942 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,480 Speaker 1: from you. Let us know your thoughts are your fellow 943 00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: listeners stories. We'd love your firsthand accounts of folklore. We'd 944 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,560 Speaker 1: love your firsthand experiences with E. C. T. And we'd 945 00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,760 Speaker 1: love to know if you have a piece of cutlery 946 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,600 Speaker 1: that resents you. We're easy to find online. It can 947 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:51,600 Speaker 1: even be spoon lery whatever you want to. Yeah, well, 948 00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:53,479 Speaker 1: you can find us on Facebook and Twitter where we're 949 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:58,839 Speaker 1: conspiracy Stuff. We are Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. Ben, 950 00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,800 Speaker 1: how do you feel about Wing night Wing? Are we 951 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:07,200 Speaker 1: talking comics, Matt, we're talking comics Nightwing? Oh yeah, I 952 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,080 Speaker 1: I dug it just for a second. I was thinking 953 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:13,160 Speaker 1: of shadow Hawk, which is a different one, but night 954 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: Wing used to be Robin right. Yeah, yeah, any thoughts 955 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:21,760 Speaker 1: on night Wing. Doesn't he use like a billy club 956 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,040 Speaker 1: or something. He seems like a fascist to me. I 957 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: don't know. He has like kind of an like a 958 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,080 Speaker 1: pole that he wacks. Maybe I'm just thinking of the 959 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,759 Speaker 1: word night stick. No, you're right, he has he has batons, 960 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:37,000 Speaker 1: he does Okay, Uh, I will be completely honest. Not 961 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,440 Speaker 1: everybody agrees with me on this. UM. I have a 962 00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: hard time with some characters like that because they are 963 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,279 Speaker 1: they are not superpowered, right. He doesn't have the superpower 964 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 1: billions of dollars like Bruce Wayne does. He's a human 965 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,920 Speaker 1: who trains very hard as a work ethic and an ideology. Uh. 966 00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,839 Speaker 1: And I'm trying not to ding on it it at 967 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,839 Speaker 1: some point in in some comics I've been reading them 968 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 1: and I've been thinking, Okay, you're all just people. Though, 969 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,239 Speaker 1: well that maybe that's what's so inspiring about night Wing Man. 970 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 1: He's just a person that he grew up with a 971 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: family in the circus, and he's got all these skills 972 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,880 Speaker 1: and now he's got a you know, do better for 973 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,000 Speaker 1: his family. It brings it to what brings night Wing 974 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,080 Speaker 1: to your mind? Conversation for another time, quick one before 975 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:31,360 Speaker 1: we go, how do you feel about dark Wing duck? Oh, 976 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,960 Speaker 1: let's get dangerous. You guys are making me sound like 977 00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 1: a jerk. I was watching him, and I was like, 978 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: you're you know, like, do you have super duck powers? 979 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out what his powers were. 980 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,880 Speaker 1: He has a grappling hook of some sort. Isn't he 981 00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,560 Speaker 1: a millionaire? Doesn't he play like? Isn't his alter ego 982 00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: like a rich guy? I is it Scrooge in disguise? No, 983 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:55,120 Speaker 1: it's dark. I forget what is Mallard? Some duck joke 984 00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:57,800 Speaker 1: his shark on the bad guy in that one. I 985 00:57:57,840 --> 00:57:59,920 Speaker 1: believe he is at some point, but there's a lot 986 00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:04,280 Speaker 1: of different Yeah, share cons in the business. I get it. 987 00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:09,760 Speaker 1: I get where he's coming from. Okay, I can't believe 988 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,120 Speaker 1: I got it right. His name is Drake Mallard and 989 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:17,360 Speaker 1: he is presumably very wealthy. Wouldn't that be the like? 990 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,919 Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be like Jeff Bezos having the last named 991 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:26,720 Speaker 1: person totally? Wouldn't Jeff Perberry on the nose? Hello, I 992 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:32,880 Speaker 1: am Jeff person, smart person burgh Okay, yeah, we got 993 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:37,680 Speaker 1: an email address or something, right? Oh, and says or 994 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:44,800 Speaker 1: Jeff wouldn't back me up on the plants conversation. Doctor 995 00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,560 Speaker 1: came in hard on some of its of Jeff roasting. 996 00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,400 Speaker 1: Uh So, send your best Jeff Bezos roast to us 997 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:57,560 Speaker 1: where Matt mentioned before, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all the rest. 998 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,800 Speaker 1: If you do not care for social media, uh that 999 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,000 Speaker 1: we totally get it, go ahead and give us a 1000 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,360 Speaker 1: call directly. We have a phone number that's right. You 1001 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,520 Speaker 1: can reach us at one three s T d W 1002 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,120 Speaker 1: y t K. Leave a message of the sound of 1003 00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,560 Speaker 1: Ben's dulcet tones three minutes of the time. You shall 1004 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,040 Speaker 1: have to tell your tale. Let us know it's okay 1005 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:18,760 Speaker 1: to use your name on the air, and we likely 1006 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,640 Speaker 1: will include it in one of our weekly listener Male episodes, 1007 00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,400 Speaker 1: which we just wrap one so like that it'll be 1008 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,280 Speaker 1: like like what we just did, so make it good. Yeah. 1009 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,840 Speaker 1: Also remember to find us on YouTube where we are 1010 00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:34,520 Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff pretty easy. Also leave a review on Apple 1011 00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,240 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you listen. That would be great. I'm 1012 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,000 Speaker 1: not saying give us five stars. I'm saying that helps. 1013 00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,840 Speaker 1: It'll be cool. We'd love it. But you rate us 1014 00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,920 Speaker 1: however you want to rate us five stars? Okay, So, um, 1015 00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:49,720 Speaker 1: if you don't want to do any of that stuff, 1016 00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:51,160 Speaker 1: you don't want to call, you don't want to find 1017 00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,240 Speaker 1: us on social you don't want to rate us, you 1018 00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:57,480 Speaker 1: can always still reach us via our old fashioned email address. 1019 00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:01,800 Speaker 1: We are bad Spoon at I heart radio dot com, 1020 01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:06,120 Speaker 1: kidding conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com, batspoone um The 1021 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:29,840 Speaker 1: La la little duh stuff they don't want you to 1022 01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,640 Speaker 1: know is a production of I heart Radio. For more 1023 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,439 Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart radio app, 1024 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,400 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.