Speaker 1: Cool Zone media. Oh my god, it's it's it could
Speaker 1: happen here, it is, and it's talking about it happening here,
Speaker 1: you know about uh what we're you know, what's happening
Speaker 1: in a galaxy far far away. These are the and
Speaker 1: Or episodes we're talking about episodes Jesus, what is it?
Speaker 2: Seven through nine and then through nine.
Speaker 1: Seven through nine of and Or Season two, when this
Speaker 1: is done, will be three quarters of the way over with.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the best seasons of television ever made.
Speaker 1: So you know, savor it, folks, enjoy it, and enjoy
Speaker 1: these podcasts. Yeah, eloquent Garrison, thank you, Thank you me
Speaker 1: hearties raised the Hondo Anaka flag.
Speaker 2: And let's watch some and Or. This is episode three
Speaker 2: of our Star Wars and Or Politics review podcast. The
Speaker 2: person grumbling in the intro is Robert Evans. I'm Garrison Davis.
Speaker 2: We are all so joined by Mia Wong. Let's start
Speaker 2: with episode seven. I think this arc in general might
Speaker 2: be my favorite arc of the whole show. Frankly, they
Speaker 2: did some really fun stuff. Oh yeah, and seven's mostly
Speaker 2: set up. This is episode seven, titled Messenger. I'll do
Speaker 2: a quick overview and then we can discuss some of
Speaker 2: the set up to the Gorman massacre. So rebel militias
Speaker 2: are forming an army on the fourth moon of Yavin.
Speaker 2: Willman returns from the planet Gorman with a special mission
Speaker 2: for Cassian Loosen Once isb agent Dedra Miro assassinated to
Speaker 2: protect the Axis network. The Empires failed to secure an
Speaker 2: alternative to the Gorman mineral calkite, and ISP command tells
Speaker 2: Dedra that an Imperial fleet will be sent to Gorman
Speaker 2: in two days and to prepare for a declaration of
Speaker 2: Marshall domain.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to note at the start of this
Speaker 1: kind of what we see because we're watching one year
Speaker 1: jumps between these, this is the first time where it's
Speaker 1: been made really clear the rebellion has moved on from
Speaker 1: scattered insurgent groups to a functional army. Like when we're
Speaker 1: introduced to Yavin, there's a transport landing, a group of
Speaker 1: soldiers are getting off and they're being told like, okay,
Speaker 1: your ration cards are here, and like you need to
Speaker 1: report in here and here this is where you're billeted.
Speaker 1: It's very like standard professional military stuff. So we are
Speaker 1: now at the point where the rebellion that and or
Speaker 1: has been portraying previously is not around anymore. The rebellion
Speaker 1: has moved on largely, and those old networks still exist
Speaker 1: to some extent, but that is not the heart of
Speaker 1: it anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a big part of what this episode
Speaker 2: is starting to set up now on Gorman. Imperial presence
Speaker 2: on the planet has already increased dramatically in the past year.
Speaker 2: A new imperial headquarters the towers above the capital city
Speaker 2: of Palmo. Security forces are stationed throughout the city with
Speaker 2: checkpoints and a mandatory curfew. The past few weeks there's
Speaker 2: been story of insurgent attacks against the Empire, most recently
Speaker 2: the bombing of a naval depot. Imperial News reports that
Speaker 2: quote unquote inexplicable Gorman terrorists.
Speaker 1: Their hate for imperial norms.
Speaker 2: Are getting help from quote unquote outside agitators.
Speaker 1: Which is not untrue actually for once, but also not
Speaker 1: like the core of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and
Speaker 1: I think that that's part of the part of the point, right,
Speaker 1: like that, that's part of what Luthen's going for, is
Speaker 1: he wants to keep them sort of obsessed with this
Speaker 1: side of things, in part because Luthan knows that it's
Speaker 1: moved on right, Like Luthen knows that the rebellion is
Speaker 1: in Yavin, now you know he is. He's not entirely
Speaker 1: a side show, but he's no longer the heart of it.
Speaker 1: And yeah, every resource they waste looking at his network
Speaker 1: is a time they're not spent looking at Yavin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Luthan's still trying. I mean, like the outside
Speaker 2: agitators here is probably mostly like Luthen's guys who've been
Speaker 2: trying to build up the insurgency on Gorman simply to
Speaker 2: make some sort of political crisis and then you know,
Speaker 2: also help the people who have already committed to resisting
Speaker 2: the Empire, help them actually, like do that beyond what
Speaker 2: the Gorman Front has been like, parading around and doing
Speaker 2: you know, little little protests in front of the memorial
Speaker 2: for the past few years. Lucien was like, if these
Speaker 2: guys want to do this seriously, let's let's see what
Speaker 2: happens when we do it seriously. And that's kind of
Speaker 2: what we've resulted to here. The Empire has sent a
Speaker 2: quote unquote crisis specialist and a riot team to assist
Speaker 2: Dedra in managing any civil unrest. Cyril Karn starts questioning
Speaker 2: what the Empire wants with Gorman and what he's really
Speaker 2: been doing these past two years. Yeah, Detra tells him
Speaker 2: to packs things as they'll soon be leaving together for Corussant.
Speaker 2: Back on Yavin four, Bicks takes a skeptical Cassion to
Speaker 2: a Force healer to help with a stubborn blaster burn.
Speaker 2: Though Cassian resists, the healer can sense that Cassian is
Speaker 2: somehow important. He has main character energy. Cassian is split
Speaker 2: between Luthen and the growing organized rebellion Yeah, but decides
Speaker 2: to take a rebel you Wing Starfighter to Gorman and
Speaker 2: undercover as a journalist. Cassian checks into the hotel at
Speaker 2: Palmo Square and sets his sights on isb Agent de
Speaker 2: dra m hm. So, Yeah, a lot of this episode
Speaker 2: is like showing how the rebels are actually like growing
Speaker 2: an army before they've really put together the formal rebel alliance,
Speaker 2: like they're they're getting so much closer to that, but
Speaker 2: at this point it's it's like a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: little like militias that are operating on the same base
Speaker 2: and are starting to set up like rules and guidelines,
Speaker 2: and like Cassian butts up against some of those rules
Speaker 2: a little bit here.
Speaker 1: Because he can't go and come as he pleases anymore, right,
Speaker 1: Like it gets him in trouble with General Draven.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just rebel cells that are operating independently.
Speaker 2: Now they are trying out working together and that has
Speaker 2: some growing pains.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, and it's not just working together too, Like it's
Speaker 3: it's the command structure totally. Structure is becoming increasingly centralized
Speaker 3: in a way that it hasn't been. Well, it's the
Speaker 3: previous to this has been like the centralizing thing has
Speaker 3: been like Luthen kind of being an asshole to everyone
Speaker 3: but like moving stuff between them. And now it's like.
Speaker 2: Or Sagarera, right where where he operates as like a
Speaker 2: cult of personality type thing with his own militia.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, well, but I mean I mean like between
Speaker 3: all of the different networks the central Yeah. And now
Speaker 3: it's like, no, we have this place where we're developing
Speaker 3: a chain of command and we're developing these sort of
Speaker 3: like totally we're going to become increasingly rigid like hierarchies.
Speaker 3: And in this, in this whole thing.
Speaker 2: Luthen's becoming a somewhat controversial figure and is kind of
Speaker 2: getting pushed out of the actual organized rebellion because he's
Speaker 2: a little bit difficult to work with, Yeah, because he's
Speaker 2: an asshole.
Speaker 1: Like it's like, yeah, well he's he's he's doing what
Speaker 1: he has to do. I mean, I'm I'm I'm Luthen's
Speaker 1: last defender. If he's only got one fan, it's me.
Speaker 1: And Luthan is doing is handling this exactly how he
Speaker 1: has to. There's no room to be nice and there's
Speaker 1: no room for anybody's feelings in this. But that you know,
Speaker 1: what we do see is people choosing.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I want to be involved in this kind of bigger
Speaker 1: and more structured thing where the way I am treated
Speaker 1: is less dependent upon the whims of this guy at
Speaker 1: the spoke, where I don't get to know anything, where
Speaker 1: there is a command structure, where there is there is
Speaker 1: a degree to which it's more like predictable how things
Speaker 1: will be day to day. Right, A lot of people
Speaker 1: do prefer that. Yeah, And also this at this stage
Speaker 1: of the rebellion, if you're going to take on a
Speaker 1: military like this, you need a formalized course, you need
Speaker 1: more of a command structure, you need a chain of command,
Speaker 1: and people need to know who is calling shots in
Speaker 1: what situations because you simply can't function effectively in a
Speaker 1: large scale in combat without it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we'll talk more about kind of Luthen's situation
Speaker 2: in episode nine. Luthen of it all, because then that
Speaker 2: kind of gets more into like what his current place
Speaker 2: is in the rebellion, but like really like the role
Speaker 2: that he occupied is is frankly no longer needed, Like
Speaker 2: like and he's even acknowledging this, like they're they're they're
Speaker 2: going beyond the sort of like you know, like small
Speaker 2: scale like intel network, arms deals, like all this type
Speaker 2: of like like covert you know, the Eldni raid. They're
Speaker 2: growing beyond what Luthen really specialized in. And and now
Speaker 2: they're doing a full on military and and Luthen's always
Speaker 2: been operating kind of like a DIY like spy agency,
Speaker 2: and and now they're they're put they're they're doing a
Speaker 2: whole military and and that kind of butts up against
Speaker 2: how Luthen like what wants to operate and like what
Speaker 2: he's like frankly just capable of doing. Like he's he
Speaker 2: understands the importance of Yaben, but he's also okay with
Speaker 2: not being there in person.
Speaker 1: Well I don't think he thinks he fits there right exactly?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like his whole thing has is such a an
Speaker 1: idiosyncratic organization' that's just based around him and Claiya, you know, this,
Speaker 1: this young woman that he works with. Like there's no
Speaker 1: place for him in a military command structure. That's not
Speaker 1: his thing.
Speaker 2: The other thing this episode really focuses on is like,
Speaker 2: you know, news propaganda and like the idea of like
Speaker 2: like terrorism outside agitators and using those things as justifications
Speaker 2: for state crackdowns. The senator from Gorman talks with mon
Speaker 2: Mathma about about how he believes that like the Empire
Speaker 2: is lying about what's happening on Gorman and these bombings
Speaker 2: must be like a false flag attack. So you got
Speaker 2: to see a whole bunch of different people's perspectives and
Speaker 2: like validity of the actions that are happening on Gorman.
Speaker 2: Like there's there's questions over like who's doing this. Is
Speaker 2: the state just making these things up so that they
Speaker 2: have a justification to crack down on us? Are these
Speaker 2: things genuine or are they are they being done by
Speaker 2: by people on Gorman who are like aligned with the
Speaker 2: resistance but maybe are getting like outside help. You have
Speaker 2: all those sorts of questions, and then the news medias
Speaker 2: like manufacturing consent for an imperial crackdown like what was
Speaker 2: discussed in like the very first episode.
Speaker 3: It's very it's very seventies Italy, like because there's these
Speaker 3: bombings happening, because there's all this weird shit and because
Speaker 3: nobody knows exactly who's doing what, everyone is like kind
Speaker 3: of become conspiracy brained and like half the conspiracies are true,
Speaker 3: but not only ones people think are the ones that
Speaker 3: are true. And it's it's just like the information space
Speaker 3: has become so messy when you're dealing with such a
Speaker 3: combination of like of like of these attacks and of
Speaker 3: these like different kinds of above and below ground organizations
Speaker 3: where nobody knows exactly, no one's exactly talking to each other,
Speaker 3: and yeah, it just gets so messy so quickly.
Speaker 2: Even the Gorman Front itself is like debating this. Like
Speaker 2: they had this whole meeting where they discussed like tactics,
Speaker 2: like the role of the role of violence, and like,
Speaker 2: as these big arguments erupt, they start to reflect on
Speaker 2: how the empire is actually like set them up for infighting,
Speaker 2: and the most time they spend doing this, the less
Speaker 2: time they're actually doing anything helpful on Gorman or like
Speaker 2: doing anything that actually can secure their own like liberation
Speaker 2: or their own like you know, combat against the suppressive force.
Speaker 1: There's a good part in that scene where they're debating
Speaker 1: it where the guy who gets who kind of stumbles
Speaker 1: upon them doing the robbery. Yeah in the last like yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it has a speech where he's basically like, look, man,
Speaker 1: everyone's like whatever they're doing, whatever their attitude about the
Speaker 1: right way to resist, they're all Gorman's to me, and
Speaker 1: so they're all on my side. Yeah, right, And I
Speaker 1: like the way that he that he expressed that because
Speaker 1: it very much as we're going to talk about next episode.
Speaker 1: It comports with who that guy is as a as
Speaker 1: a resistor. Right.
Speaker 2: There's like national identity is a big concept in these episodes,
Speaker 2: but not in like a fascistic nationalist sense.
Speaker 1: No, as in, we're all in this, We're all going
Speaker 1: to hang together, is what I think he's saying, like
Speaker 1: like national solidarity.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, it's like eighteen twenties kind of like or
Speaker 3: even like Ireland, right, like yeah, yeah, and like you know,
Speaker 3: I can give a speech here about where this is
Speaker 3: going in about how shin Fein's like Tarty gets imbigers
Speaker 3: and trans people, but it's also like that's just like
Speaker 3: that what's happening right now. This is like eighteen twenty,
Speaker 3: not like nineteen twenty.
Speaker 2: The last thing I want to talk about in this
Speaker 2: arc before we go on break is this Force healer
Speaker 2: that Cassian reluctantly visits in the Yavin for mess Hall. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this was a super interesting scene to me, and this
Speaker 2: is the first time we have seen any mention of
Speaker 2: the Force. Really. Yeah, this is like the big spiritual
Speaker 2: moment in this series, and Or has kind of veered
Speaker 2: away from like the mystical side of Star Wars in
Speaker 2: favor of the more like materialist politics the Star Wars.
Speaker 2: That they concluded this here, I thought was really interesting
Speaker 2: and really well done. And the reason why I like
Speaker 2: it so much is that, like throughout the Rebel Alliance,
Speaker 2: they always like agreet each other and like say goodbye
Speaker 2: by saying may the Force be with you, which is
Speaker 2: a little bit odd because the Rebel Alliance isn't like
Speaker 2: a Jedi revivalist They're not like a Force cult in
Speaker 2: the way that so many other groups and you know
Speaker 2: Star Wars TM are and the fact that you have
Speaker 2: people who engage with the Force and it's more like
Speaker 2: regular manner, more similar to like kind of like hippie
Speaker 2: woo spiritualist stuff that that props up in like radical
Speaker 2: spaces I find really interesting. Yeah, And obviously in Star
Speaker 2: Wars that has more of like a legitimate backing because
Speaker 2: we all recognize the forces real. In Star Wars, the
Speaker 2: Force is fake, it's a psio.
Speaker 3: It's just the alien god thing in the Black Holes Force.
Speaker 1: In part what I love that and er is how
Speaker 1: big it makes the universe seem because Cassian. Cassian isn't
Speaker 1: like he doesn't have like the you know, there's that
Speaker 1: line in a New Hope where basically Hans like I
Speaker 1: don't know, like Han's clearly heard of the Jedi, but
Speaker 1: he's like I don't need like I don't give a
Speaker 1: shit about this.
Speaker 2: I don't need hokey religions or special efforts.
Speaker 1: It's like somebody talking about yeah, like like Wicca, right,
Speaker 1: Like if you're just like a Doude who's a fucking
Speaker 1: drug dealer, You're like, I don't need to hear about that. Man,
Speaker 1: I got, I got fucking.
Speaker 3: Heroin to move, Like, yeah, it's very it's very much
Speaker 3: like it's it's very much like faith Healer coded. It's like,
Speaker 3: oh god, no, I'm not gonna see the faith Healer
Speaker 3: come on, Like no, yeah, And and he talks about
Speaker 3: how him and his like his mom had like a
Speaker 3: bad experience with a horse a healer like ten years ago,
Speaker 3: and you're like, this is this is a whole like
Speaker 3: scam operation as well, Yeah, like fake force healers.
Speaker 1: And beyond that, the thing that's unset is what we
Speaker 1: know about Cassie, and is he was raised on a
Speaker 1: planet completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy.
Speaker 1: His childhood was as a hunter gatherer in the deep jungle,
Speaker 1: and he was, presumably, as all peoples in that situation
Speaker 1: always have, raised with a set of beliefs about the
Speaker 1: universe and spirituality that were completely shattered when his entire
Speaker 1: planet was annihilated by the Empire.
Speaker 2: Right, was it by the Republic?
Speaker 1: Well it was, it was it was in that transition
Speaker 1: of the.
Speaker 2: Fuzio between the Republic and the Empire.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, But of course he doesn't belie even anything correct,
Speaker 1: Like he had some sort of set of beliefs, and
Speaker 1: the entire cosmology of his planet was annihilated, Like why
Speaker 1: would he believe in anything?
Speaker 2: I just like what this does for like the Alliance itself,
Speaker 2: and it shows that the Force is like a regular
Speaker 2: part of these people's lives. And like specifically the way
Speaker 2: the Force Healer talks is more about like the Force
Speaker 2: as this as this like operator of like fate and destiny.
Speaker 2: And it can sense that Cassie and Andor is the
Speaker 2: main character in Rogue Wan a Star Wars story, and
Speaker 2: is important for the story of Star Wars, and she
Speaker 2: can feel that this is important, and so condicts and
Speaker 2: and and Or is also freaked out by that like feeling.
Speaker 2: And I do like that version of the Force a lot.
Speaker 2: I think that's a much more interesting way to do
Speaker 2: it than just like you know, force cults in like
Speaker 2: a forever religious war with each other for thousands of years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you pas us an unbelievably large amount of money,
Speaker 3: Gearson and I will have our six hour argument. We
Speaker 3: will every time about the Force with Star Wars. I
Speaker 3: do also like that it's not one hundred percent clear
Speaker 3: that this person is even for sensitive.
Speaker 2: She can like feel through the force but like everyone
Speaker 2: can with some degree of training.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's well, but it's it's it's also like
Speaker 3: not clear that it's like like she's just a girl,
Speaker 3: she's yeah, yeah, but like if it's.
Speaker 1: Not a hundred his back seems to feel better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, yeah, totally yeah.
Speaker 3: But but but but also like that's the thing, like
Speaker 3: it's it's not it's not like a thing like Okay,
Speaker 3: this is like a Jedi, right, they're using the Force,
Speaker 3: and you could tell using the Force. This is a
Speaker 3: lot more kind of like nebulous, and it's not one
Speaker 3: hundred percent clear if it's happening or if it's everyone
Speaker 3: is like I think just thinks that it's happening, or
Speaker 3: like what's you know, it's it's very no, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: Why I like it, Like, yeah, it's it's not a Jedi,
Speaker 2: it's just it's just someone and everyone in this universe
Speaker 2: can have a connection with the Force because that's how
Speaker 2: this universe works, and some people don't want to or
Speaker 2: think it's fake, and other people get really into it.
Speaker 2: Some people get way too into it, and then they
Speaker 2: and then they do genocides in the name of the
Speaker 2: of their religious order. But for a lot of people
Speaker 2: like this who aren't like a Jedi. You aren't like
Speaker 2: a sith or you know, a whatever, a guardian of
Speaker 2: the wills. God, it's just a thing you can like
Speaker 2: connect with and you can like feel your way through
Speaker 2: like fate and destiny.
Speaker 1: Well, and I really like that. They must have there
Speaker 1: must have been a discussion, should we have her say
Speaker 1: she used to be like a paddaw Right who somehow
Speaker 1: escaped Order sixty six.
Speaker 2: That must have been God, she's not.
Speaker 1: Thank God, they just didn't. We don't know what she
Speaker 1: don't care need to tell her matter because no one
Speaker 1: in the situation would give a shit. Yeah, Cassiean's not
Speaker 1: gonna be like, so yeah, tell me about like your
Speaker 1: fucking bad. He doesn't give He doesn't give a fuck.
Speaker 1: There's so much else going on in his head at
Speaker 1: that moment.
Speaker 2: So much better that she's just a random person.
Speaker 1: And we never know. We never know.
Speaker 2: All right, let's go and break and come back to
Speaker 2: talk about the Gorman massacre. Yay, Okay, we are back
Speaker 2: and ors he's in two, episode eight eight. Who are you?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Ugh, I just I will talk a lot about
Speaker 1: the name of this episode. Oh yeah, baby, because I
Speaker 1: love it because it's it's just some of the best
Speaker 1: writing that this show or any show has ever had. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: please go ahead and give us the over there.
Speaker 2: Let's let's do a quick run down.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: As mining equipment lands across Gorman, troops barricade the Imperial
Speaker 2: headquarters in Palmo Square as they prepare for a mass protest.
Speaker 2: The Gorman Front prepares to retake the town square, distributing
Speaker 2: weapons and rallying just regular Gorman citizens to march on
Speaker 2: the town center. The old leader of the Front realizes
Speaker 2: too late that this protest is probably an Imperial trap
Speaker 2: and is powerless to stop this unfolding spectacle. He encounters
Speaker 2: a Cyril Kern on his way to the Imperial HQ
Speaker 2: and confronts Cyril about misleading the Gorman Resistance and why
Speaker 2: the Empire is mining on Gorman.
Speaker 1: Oh, and this scene is the guy who plays there's
Speaker 1: so many great monologues in this The dude who plays Rylands,
Speaker 1: who is the old rich guy who's kind of the
Speaker 1: organizing center of the Gorman Front.
Speaker 2: The original one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, has a beautiful speech here where he's just how
Speaker 1: can you say these things?
Speaker 2: What kind of being are you?
Speaker 1: What kind of being, are you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's excellent, It's perfect, It's devastating.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Cyril breaks free and makes his way through the
Speaker 2: chanting crowd that's filled a square.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: After arriving at the barricaded Imperial Tower, Cyril sneaks into
Speaker 2: Dedra's office to demand to know what the Empire wants
Speaker 2: on Gorman. He chokes Dedra as she confesses that this
Speaker 2: has all been for the Emperor's new energy program, and
Speaker 2: she promises that they will soon return to Corussant as heroes.
Speaker 1: We'll get everything we want. The Empire will reward us
Speaker 1: for our loyalty. Is this is it? This is the
Speaker 1: last fucked up thing we have to do and then
Speaker 1: we can live happily ever after.
Speaker 3: Yeah, didn't you want this promotion?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. She says that this might be the previous
Speaker 2: episode or this one, but like when Zerol like kind
Speaker 2: of like protests that just like, yeah, but you weren't
Speaker 2: complaining when you got promoted into this job. But Zero
Speaker 2: wishes Dedra good luck, and he leaves to join the
Speaker 2: crowd outside Cassie and is stationed on the outskirts of
Speaker 2: the crowd, trying to line up a shot to take
Speaker 2: out Dedra, but stormtroopers soon kettle the crowd and Imperial
Speaker 2: riot cops are sent into the square to jumpstart a
Speaker 2: flash point. Protesters throw rocks and bottles, but it's an
Speaker 2: Imperial sniper who is ordered to shoot their own riot
Speaker 2: cops that starts the Gorman massacre.
Speaker 1: And they make the beautiful point. The kettling is done
Speaker 1: by stormtroopers who are the elite, right, These are their
Speaker 1: very best infantry, the riot cops. From the moment they're introduced,
Speaker 1: because we see these guys land with their kit bags,
Speaker 1: their sergeant clearly has a lot more experience and is like,
Speaker 1: these guys don't know what the fuck they're doing. We
Speaker 1: cannot put them in any kind of dangerous and that's
Speaker 1: the point. That's why they're there. These men were handpicked
Speaker 1: to be the worst of the Empire. Here's they're expendable, right,
Speaker 1: and because you can count on them to panic, and
Speaker 1: that's what's needed.
Speaker 2: They're cannon fodders. Yeah, they're sacrificial lambs.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, Sir Cyril watches the chaos unfold as the Gorman
Speaker 2: Front tries to defend against the Imperial slaughter and chax.
Speaker 2: Security droids are sent into the town square, but when
Speaker 2: Cyril sees Cassian, he suddenly lunges at him and the
Speaker 2: two get into a brutal brawl. Cyril gets the upper hand,
Speaker 2: but is shocked when Cassian does not remember who he is.
Speaker 2: While frozen, pointing his blaster at Cassian, Cyril gets shot
Speaker 2: dead by the old leader of the Gorman Front.
Speaker 1: There's Rylans.
Speaker 2: It's an incredible moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: While trying to exfiltrate Cassian meets up with Willem, who
Speaker 2: decides to stay and help the resistance. In the aftermath
Speaker 2: of the massacre, the Gorman Front broadcast the final message
Speaker 2: about the Imperial siege, claiming there are thousands dead in
Speaker 2: the streets. Cyril's mother is in tears watching news reports
Speaker 2: coming out of Gorman that framed the Imperial troopers killed
Speaker 2: as fallen heroes. Yeah, oh boy, what an episode. Maybe
Speaker 2: the best episode in the series. Who just phenomenal.
Speaker 1: It's phenomenal. I'll give you that. I don't know whish
Speaker 1: i'd pick us the best, but it's tough. It's tough.
Speaker 3: I think it's the prison break one still, because a
Speaker 3: break one's very good.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go on a little rant about the
Speaker 1: name of this episode who Are You, because that moment
Speaker 1: between Cassian and Cyril is one that Tony Gilroy ha
Speaker 1: said in interviews he had to fight for everyone was like
Speaker 1: just crazy and Diego Luna said it was one of
Speaker 1: the hardest lines for me to deliver because Luna likes
Speaker 1: the show and is a fan of the character Cyril
Speaker 1: and his acting, and he knows every and it has
Speaker 1: the degree of sympathy that you almost have to have
Speaker 1: for Cyril at this point totally, and so it was
Speaker 1: such a difficult challenge for him to be like to
Speaker 1: really sell who the fuck are you?
Speaker 2: Who shattererril self perception?
Speaker 1: Well, and it's it's not even I'll even push against
Speaker 1: a little bit that because I don't think it's entirely that.
Speaker 1: I think what I like about Cyril's journey is that,
Speaker 1: And what I like about this episode is that who
Speaker 1: Are You is not just about that line. It is
Speaker 1: about every character that we see in this We are
Speaker 1: learning who they all are, and they are learning who
Speaker 1: they all are. Ryelands in the beginning, right, this guy
Speaker 1: who had been so gung ho about the Gorman resistance,
Speaker 1: who had been when he realizes what's happening that they're
Speaker 1: all going to be massacred. His family and his culture
Speaker 1: are going to be wiped out as a result of
Speaker 1: this act of resistance that he's helped to organize. He
Speaker 1: tries to stop it. He says, we have to pull back,
Speaker 1: and he learns he's not a rebel. Right, and there's
Speaker 1: always been hints of that. He's not a rebel. He's
Speaker 1: always you know, the Emperor can't know about this, right,
Speaker 1: We've seen hints of this from Mark Rylance. He learns
Speaker 1: that about himself. And then a little later in the
Speaker 1: episode when it's become because we watch his kids get massacred. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he doesn't see them, but he knows they're dead. He
Speaker 1: hears the gunfire, he understands no one's making it out
Speaker 1: of there. He's not a dumb man. And when he
Speaker 1: comes in and shoots Cyril in the head, he learns
Speaker 1: again who he is. And now he wasn't before, but
Speaker 1: now he is because they've taken everything from him. Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the quote from earlier when he's like arguing with
Speaker 2: people in the streets, he's like, the only path forward
Speaker 2: is silent resistance. Yeah, And by the end of the
Speaker 2: episode he is a little beyond that.
Speaker 1: And I love for him that he gets a chance
Speaker 1: to learn who he is and be wrong and then
Speaker 1: learn again and be right right, which is not a
Speaker 1: chance Cyril is going to get. Cyril does and all
Speaker 1: Cyril is. We see, we see a lot of characters
Speaker 1: in this who could only have been themselves in a
Speaker 1: fascist state. Dedra's one of them, right, Dedra could not
Speaker 1: have been the person she is outside of the Empire total.
Speaker 1: I think part of Oz probably is too, could never
Speaker 1: have been him self fully outside Certainly well, I think
Speaker 1: if you.
Speaker 3: Put Partigos in the CIA, he is mostly the same guy.
Speaker 1: I think he must have been in the Republic CIA.
Speaker 2: Yeah. He feels very like Republic transitioned into the Empire. Ye,
Speaker 2: like God.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think Krenick obviously is one of our best.
Speaker 1: Krenic is only am under fascism. Cyril is not an
Speaker 1: ideological fascist. Cyril never really embraces fascism as a belief system.
Speaker 1: He never understands the Empire that way. He just understands
Speaker 1: the Empire's law and order he gets if you look
Speaker 1: at it from Cyril's standpoint. He gets brought into this
Speaker 1: not because he wants to cramp down on clamp down
Speaker 1: on the evil rebels, and he loves Palpatine and wants
Speaker 1: to kill Freedom. It's because two guys are murdered that
Speaker 1: he considers colleagues, and he thinks it's wrong.
Speaker 2: Right. He has a sense of like justice, and he believes.
Speaker 1: He's following that, and he believes that his girlfriend is
Speaker 1: invested in that, and he truly believes. He doesn't want
Speaker 1: to hurt the people of Gorman. He wants to find
Speaker 1: the outside agitators who are driving them to disaster, right,
Speaker 1: And the moment when he learns that that's all a lie,
Speaker 1: he beats the shit out of his girlfriend in a
Speaker 1: very violence. I had an argument with someone online about like,
Speaker 1: is this domestic violence? And I'm like, in a literal sense,
Speaker 1: these people are in a domestic partnership, and he is
Speaker 1: doing violence to her. In a moral sense, if you
Speaker 1: find out that your significant other has been hiding a
Speaker 1: genocide from you, I think it's okay. Like, and you've
Speaker 1: been made complicit in it.
Speaker 2: It's such a fucked upsy. It's such a it's such
Speaker 2: like every everyone is, everyone's fucked and everyone's evil and
Speaker 2: everyone's complicit. Yes, and they're all like calling their own
Speaker 2: commitment to like the state and what they view as
Speaker 2: justice and law and order into question, and like for Cyril,
Speaker 2: like he's he has just committed to this idea like
Speaker 2: justice and what he sees as law and order, and
Speaker 2: the Empire is the physical manifestation of law and order,
Speaker 2: So therefore the Empire must be good, right, and and
Speaker 2: that's his view, Yeah, and when he really maybe the
Speaker 2: Umpire actually doesn't really.
Speaker 1: Care about law and order, No, they just like it
Speaker 1: gets so.
Speaker 2: Confused, like he he doesn't know how to orient himself
Speaker 2: in the world. He doesn't know where a sense of
Speaker 2: morals can be derived from. No, if the state is
Speaker 2: not the represent is not like the lawful good representation
Speaker 2: of like justice.
Speaker 1: And we've seen from Cyril previously that he has physical courage, right,
Speaker 1: he's not afraid of violence. He's not afraid of putting
Speaker 1: himself in physical danger, right, Like he's not a Cassian
Speaker 1: and or level comfortable with it, right because he just
Speaker 1: doesn't have that kind of experience. But he's not he's
Speaker 1: not physically a coward, but he's a moral coward the
Speaker 1: whole series, and that changes and again going back to
Speaker 1: who are you, he understood he learns one thing about himself,
Speaker 1: which is that he is not a genocide committer, right,
Speaker 1: he is not someone who will consciously participate in the
Speaker 1: annihilation of a race. Right when he learns that those
Speaker 1: are the stakes he hits, he chokes Dedra and he
Speaker 1: fucking runs. He doesn't know anything else about himself at
Speaker 1: that point. And my interpretation of his reaction to that
Speaker 1: line from Cassian isn't just because I think what I
Speaker 1: love about the scene when he chooses to attack him.
Speaker 1: It's not him making a decision to go back to
Speaker 1: the Empire. He's not trying to rest to fight Cassian
Speaker 1: because he wants to get back and good. It's just
Speaker 1: the only thing that makes sense. He's nothing to his
Speaker 1: child's self. Yes, yes, it's it's crazy because I mean
Speaker 1: it's animal. The way that he goes after him is
Speaker 1: like a rabbit dog charging, you know.
Speaker 2: Like this whole situation on Gorman calls into question how
Speaker 2: he sees the Empire and therefore how he sees himself
Speaker 2: as he realizes that he's just been upawn in the
Speaker 2: Empire's larger game, and like, in a way, Gorman's the
Speaker 2: first time that Cyril's been part of like a real
Speaker 2: community maybe since he was like a Corpo cop, Like
Speaker 2: there's no like solidarity in community like on Coorissant, there's
Speaker 2: not in the Bureau of Standards. Like Gorman's the first
Speaker 2: time he's actually kind of been a part of a community.
Speaker 2: And like this happens with like with like FBI double
Speaker 2: agents infiltrating radical organizations. Sometimes it's it's very odd. So
Speaker 2: like when he decides to join the crowd, it's just
Speaker 2: like he's aligning with them. But then when he sees
Speaker 2: Cassie and all of this psychological like progress, and the
Speaker 2: question that he's done just gets immediately rolled back because
Speaker 2: then he sees the guy who he thinks like kind
Speaker 2: of like ruined his life, who like who who altered
Speaker 2: the trajectory of what Cyril's life was supposed to be,
Speaker 2: And therefore he just he yeah, he he like turns
Speaker 2: into an animal. He undoes all of all of this
Speaker 2: psychological progress and attacks the guy that he views ruined
Speaker 2: his life, and then in his final moments is in
Speaker 2: part like confronted with the idea that like the guy
Speaker 2: that he's been obsessing over for years doesn't even remember
Speaker 2: who he is, and like Cassian's been living rent free
Speaker 2: in his head this whole time, and and like he
Speaker 2: didn't need to, Like Cyril could have moved on. Cyril
Speaker 2: didn't need to do this, And he's been obsessing over
Speaker 2: someone who doesn't even remember him.
Speaker 3: So I think the other thing that's really important about
Speaker 3: Cyril's character is like if if you remember him in
Speaker 3: like the very beginning of season one, right, he has
Speaker 3: like like like what he like goes home, like he
Speaker 3: has like a storm he has like storm tuber like figure.
Speaker 2: In ye clone troop like action figure.
Speaker 3: Yes, and and he has and you know, and he's
Speaker 3: he's like tailoring his own uniform because he has this
Speaker 3: conception of himself as this, like you know, as like
Speaker 3: this like this brave cop as this like sort of
Speaker 3: like like this like this this is very specific kind
Speaker 3: of like fascist bureaucrat with a.
Speaker 2: Gun like platonic figure. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And the thing is Dentri Miro is that actual person
Speaker 3: and this is and this is a tension that that
Speaker 3: they that it's kind of worked out or of course
Speaker 3: season one if like Dendrimuro is a character who in
Speaker 3: a conventional show is a hero, right, like she is
Speaker 3: she is she is like the cop that's willing to
Speaker 3: work outside of the restrictions of the thing in order
Speaker 3: to get the job done. Yeah, and then and you
Speaker 3: get to see what that actually is in real life,
Speaker 3: which is she's just fucking torturing people, and you know,
Speaker 3: and she's torturing people, and she's going and she and
Speaker 3: and when she gets offered a chance to do the
Speaker 3: genocide in order to do investment, she gets that.
Speaker 2: And I think part of what's.
Speaker 3: Going on with Cerial is like Cyril's whole thing is
Speaker 3: that he has been trying to be this cop and
Speaker 3: then he he has this moment where he's like, oh shit,
Speaker 3: none of that's like real. The actual thing that it
Speaker 3: means to be this cop isn't just this isn't this
Speaker 3: like I dress up in my in my client was closed.
Speaker 3: And he gets this season one too, where he like
Speaker 3: actually goes into the field and it's just like everyone's
Speaker 3: fucking dying around him and he's shell shocked and things
Speaker 3: are exploding, and it's like he's getting that here again
Speaker 3: where it's like his' like thing where he's been cultivating
Speaker 3: this like intelligence person and he sees it and it
Speaker 3: just like it just sort of it rips away the
Speaker 3: facade that's like that is the facade of how like
Speaker 3: on a kind of macro level, like how we how
Speaker 3: film and television and how American media thinks about like
Speaker 3: spies and thinks about cops. Sure, and and you see
Speaker 3: that the actual brutal reality of it, which is like
Speaker 3: through through the eyes of this person who who who
Speaker 3: like through through through this sort of like media stuff,
Speaker 3: has always wanted to become this person and is like, oh,
Speaker 3: you're just doing a genocide. The one part of being
Speaker 3: a cop that I can do is is like choking.
Speaker 3: He's like choking my partner.
Speaker 1: So my interpretation of kind of his ending moments is
Speaker 1: that Number One, I don't really feel it is necessarily
Speaker 1: that he undoes all the progress. I think that there's
Speaker 1: this this animal moment when he sees Cassian that just
Speaker 1: overrides ever, because nothing else about his life has makes
Speaker 1: sense anymore. He's completely lost any sense of sanity, and
Speaker 1: Cassian makes sense. Fighting him makes sense, and so he
Speaker 1: does it, and we do see he has a chance
Speaker 1: to shoot him, and he hesitates and he lowers the
Speaker 1: gun just a bit and then he's immediately shot. And
Speaker 1: in that moment, Number one. One of the themes of
Speaker 1: this is that, like everyone has their own rebellion, there's
Speaker 1: an argument you can make that him not doing that
Speaker 1: was his last little act of that. There's an argument
Speaker 1: that like maybe he would have, you know, tried to
Speaker 1: engage in conversation or like you know, monologued or whatever,
Speaker 1: but he didn't get the chance. We just don't know.
Speaker 1: We'll never know. And he's he's kind of contrasted with
Speaker 1: Rylans and that Rylens does get the chance to see
Speaker 1: who he is and have it be not enough and
Speaker 1: then become enough. Cyril gets the chance to see who
Speaker 1: he is, and he does do one. He gets one win,
Speaker 1: and it is a win to realize there's a genocide
Speaker 1: going on and I refuse to be a part of it. Right,
Speaker 1: That's not nothing that he makes that choice. We don't
Speaker 1: know where he would have gone from here. There's a
Speaker 1: version of Cyril that could have been a part of
Speaker 1: the rebel, that could have if he had just left
Speaker 1: Cassie and helped some Gorman's escape on a ship, used
Speaker 1: his imperial credentials, gotten them out of there. It becomes
Speaker 1: something else we'll never know because he doesn't get the
Speaker 1: chance and I see in that last moment not just
Speaker 1: him being like you don't know who I am? Oh,
Speaker 1: that shatters me, but him being asked who are you
Speaker 1: and realizing I have no answer to that question? Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and he just doesn't get the chance ever to do that.
Speaker 2: It is a very like Greek tragedy, ugh like mobent tier. Yeah, phenomenal,
Speaker 2: phenomenal screenwriting.
Speaker 1: I will argue it's going to get paid off a
Speaker 1: lot in the next three episodes. But this idea that
Speaker 1: has run through the series that even if you are
Speaker 1: someone working within this machinery of death, within this evil empire,
Speaker 1: you're not unredeemable or unsavable, but you don't have unlimited time. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can be something else. You have that chance, but
Speaker 1: you don't have infinite days to make that choice.
Speaker 2: This is like the entire message of Star Wars, Like
Speaker 2: this is this is like Luke Invader in the Throne Room.
Speaker 2: This is like what this whole series is about. Like
Speaker 2: is this moment?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2: I do have a few other things I want to
Speaker 2: talk about in terms of like the massacre. I really
Speaker 2: like that we see a return of like Imperial military police,
Speaker 2: not just stormtroopers. I think putting a face on the
Speaker 2: riot cops is really good for the audience because stormtroopers
Speaker 2: are backpacks and t shirts and little fun toys and
Speaker 2: riot cops or riot cops. I'd really like that Willman
Speaker 2: is the being with a French militant many such.
Speaker 1: Cases cases who among us.
Speaker 2: Uh Hartagras in a like a phone call with dedra
Speaker 2: Is talking about how like yeah, like you know, propaganda,
Speaker 2: news media has been useful and like spreading like rumors
Speaker 2: and like you know, like co intel pro that's for stuff.
Speaker 2: It's been useful. But now the only the quote is
Speaker 2: like now the only story is Gorman aggression. Like this
Speaker 2: is all that we can focus on. There's there's no
Speaker 2: no more of this like outside agitator's thing, no more
Speaker 2: of this like long term slow planning. We have to
Speaker 2: we just have to focus on how like savage these
Speaker 2: Gormans are. And meanwhile, like Fox like space, Fox News
Speaker 2: is outside stoking divisions on Gorman, talking about how there's
Speaker 2: rumors of ay quote unquote general strike, how how how
Speaker 2: the empire is negotiating for like a peaceful demonstration. Yea,
Speaker 2: even though even though even though the leaders are obviously
Speaker 2: you know, making making people agitated in this in this
Speaker 2: growing insurrection. The chance got me. I have heard way
Speaker 2: too many the whole the whole world is watching ants.
Speaker 2: So as soon as they started to go the galaxy,
Speaker 2: I started like, I started like get like sweat egg.
Speaker 1: I started having like no, no, that gave me a
Speaker 1: little breakdown too. It's my least favorite.
Speaker 2: No it's happening again. No, no, no, the galaxy isn't watching. No,
Speaker 2: it's not.
Speaker 1: There's that Oh I hate that chant. I hate that
Speaker 1: fucking chance. But it's very real. It's very real, right,
Speaker 1: like this these guys right, yes.
Speaker 2: We get, we get like a real proper riot set up, right,
Speaker 2: Like the last riot in and Or was on Ferrex,
Speaker 2: Like that was like a funeral riot.
Speaker 1: Right, it's almost like some of the writers have seen kettles.
Speaker 2: It's crazy, like it's crazy and like this time like
Speaker 2: this is not like a morning ritual like like it
Speaker 2: was on fair Like this is this is this is
Speaker 2: a protest riot. There's there's signs, there's banners, there's fireworks,
Speaker 2: there's smoke, there's space molotovs. There's state affiliated news cruise,
Speaker 2: there's tie fighters flying over had like police copters and
Speaker 2: police drums. It's excellent.
Speaker 1: I got a little flashback of being buzzed by a
Speaker 1: police helicopter. It's standing rocks so close that it knocked
Speaker 1: my car off the road.
Speaker 2: That's what happened with the tie Fighter. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's like like like right down to like just
Speaker 3: just like the micro dynamics of like how the crowd
Speaker 3: is interacting with the riot shields. It's like, oh shit.
Speaker 2: And I got the same not in my stomach, what
Speaker 2: I can tell that she's about to go down. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I get this the same watching this like, they really
Speaker 2: nailed It's.
Speaker 1: Great too, is it? With in the just in the
Speaker 1: face acting, But with Cassie and and with Wilman, you
Speaker 1: can see that they know they've been in this. They
Speaker 1: know Willman is bat like okay, okay, okay, I know
Speaker 1: what's happening.
Speaker 3: I also really like that. Okay, So so okay. So
Speaker 3: the challenge that Gilroy has here is we have to
Speaker 3: introduce the concept of kettling to the average Star Wars watcher.
Speaker 3: And with the average Star Wars watcher, you can't be like, okay,
Speaker 3: the police are going to form a wall. You have
Speaker 3: to physically make walls come in around the thing.
Speaker 1: Like some people have said that the Gorman Mascer is
Speaker 1: very clearly inspired by what's happened in Palestine. These episodes,
Speaker 1: I'm sure were informed by other massacres in Palestine, but
Speaker 1: these were written prior to the most current outbreak of
Speaker 1: really intense genocidal violence.
Speaker 2: In like twenty two.
Speaker 1: Probably again there were other similar massacres that occurred in Palestine.
Speaker 1: But also like this is very clearly patterned off of
Speaker 1: Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland. This is very clearly patterned
Speaker 1: off of I would argue my suspicion the Ombits massacre
Speaker 1: in India by the British government as well, Like I
Speaker 1: think there are pieces of all of that in here.
Speaker 3: There's also elements that I heard friend of the show
Speaker 3: Emmy Who's Great, talking about, like the Tlatalaco massacre, which
Speaker 3: is like the massacre in nineteen sixty eight in a
Speaker 3: square in the middle of Mexico City, which is masacre
Speaker 3: where there's like these giant students sixty eight student protests
Speaker 3: are happening and they just like put snipers on the
Speaker 3: roods and shoot everyone.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: And I think so when I saw this, like I
Speaker 3: thought it was going to be a lot more of
Speaker 3: just like a straight massacre. Everyone dies and it kind
Speaker 3: of turns into a shootout, and I wasn't sure how
Speaker 3: that was going to play. Also, I think it is
Speaker 3: also worth remembering that, like also a lot of the
Speaker 3: sort of famous historical massacres aren't like some people do
Speaker 3: shoot back, yes, because the thing at Sienemen like some
Speaker 3: of the some of some of the students like take
Speaker 3: workers from soldiers that they fought and like shoot, well,
Speaker 3: yeah this is this is more of the workers. And
Speaker 3: by the time they get into the square with the students,
Speaker 3: like those people don't have gone. Some of the workers
Speaker 3: like try to fight back and just get massacred. But
Speaker 3: it seems to have been really effective. Yeah, in just
Speaker 3: like conveying that like, yeah, this shit happens constantly.
Speaker 1: It happened in my don too write where you have
Speaker 1: you know, both you have Barkut snipers shooting and killing
Speaker 1: protesters and you have protesters firing back from behind the barricades.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I really liked the singing the Gorba national anthem
Speaker 2: as a way to like, yeah, stop the chanting, which
Speaker 2: is like calling towards you know, like we're safe because
Speaker 2: the galaxy's watching us, and like the guy who starts
Speaker 2: to the song realizes like that maybe that's not true,
Speaker 2: and instead this song like unites people in like national
Speaker 2: solidarity to prepare them for what's about to happen, instead
Speaker 2: of like gesturing outwards at like this at like you
Speaker 2: know those those off planet watching this, and that insures
Speaker 2: our safety, Like no, our safety is from like each other.
Speaker 2: And the fact that, yeah, so many of them do
Speaker 2: fire back and like it is it. They do not
Speaker 2: like lose their agency, and that doesn't like make this
Speaker 2: less of a massacre.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's another example. This is like the Red Summer,
Speaker 3: which is like a whole bunch of like anti anti
Speaker 3: black race riots in the US, and it's it's another one.
Speaker 2: He thinks.
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, it's remembered as like a bunch of
Speaker 3: white supremacists just murdered a bunch of black people, and
Speaker 3: that's true. But also people fought back, like people had guns,
Speaker 3: people fought back, people resisted them, and you know a
Speaker 3: lot of people fucking died. And also people in these
Speaker 3: situations fly back, and it's good.
Speaker 2: The last thing I want to discuss in this last
Speaker 2: section is the based hotel porter who throws.
Speaker 1: That viobe My god. Oh yeah, and again, yeah, we
Speaker 1: are learning he already knows clearly, he knows who he is.
Speaker 1: He never has any question about that. But we don't
Speaker 1: know who he is. Cassian doesn't fully until he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wiped you from the system, bro, get out of here, right.
Speaker 2: That's what we're talking about, Yeah, is this is this
Speaker 2: base hotel porter. And also that the way the way
Speaker 2: Cassian works as a spy is different from the way
Speaker 2: that other like Luther and operatives do. Like Cassian gets
Speaker 2: to know this guy in the previous arc of episodes
Speaker 2: when he's when he's like going to like survey the
Speaker 2: Gorman Front like a year ago, and he gets into
Speaker 2: a conversation with this hotel porter who was at like
Speaker 2: the Tarkan massacre and was like was there when there
Speaker 2: was like five hunch of people died and like his.
Speaker 1: Dad and his dad died protecting him watch his.
Speaker 2: Day like and or like converses with him in his
Speaker 2: in his hotel room to like learn about like the
Speaker 2: local people and to like learn about the actual history
Speaker 2: from like a regular guy who experienced it. And this
Speaker 2: isn't something that like Vell and Sint to really do.
Speaker 2: This isn't something that Luthen really does like like and
Speaker 2: Or has a connection or like and Or values making
Speaker 2: connections with just like the regular people and wherever he's operating,
Speaker 2: and this this always like trans outs to help and
Speaker 2: Or in the long run, even if he doesn't really
Speaker 2: know it in like the immediate because when Andor comes
Speaker 2: back a year later under a different name with a
Speaker 2: different job, the hotel porter recognizes him and is like,
Speaker 2: I got you, buddy, ill take care. I know that
Speaker 2: you're up to something and I will protect you, like
Speaker 2: we're we are in this together. Like I recognize you,
Speaker 2: and I like value you, and that is what like
Speaker 2: helps helps and Or like in this episode. And then
Speaker 2: also the grenades that he throws is you know cool uh.
Speaker 1: And there's there's a beautiful and Or's last line to
Speaker 1: this kid is I hope things work out for you.
Speaker 1: And the last thing we see that kid do is
Speaker 1: detonate a bomb to kill himself and a bunch of
Speaker 1: other people.
Speaker 2: Rebellions are built on hope.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and he tells him rebellions are built on hope,
Speaker 1: which is where we get that line from Rogue One.
Speaker 2: I like that, Sam the guy with two ms who
Speaker 2: killed Sinta last Dark is still in the fight and
Speaker 2: is killing imperials. He is, yes, he is killing them
Speaker 2: in the name of Cinta. He is. He is showing up.
Speaker 1: He is real and he he he again. He learns
Speaker 1: who he is in this episode, right, like he's not
Speaker 1: just a fuck up. He rams a truck into that
Speaker 1: K two unit and save saves Cassio, save saves the
Speaker 1: whole day end. Yes, he learns too, Yeah, he learns who.
Speaker 2: I feel like that everything good that happens to Cassiod,
Speaker 2: all the people who do it are like in part
Speaker 2: like responsible for the destruction of the Death Star, which
Speaker 2: shows how like the butterfly effect works in a really
Speaker 2: fun way. Yeah, and like like a good Luther and operative,
Speaker 2: Cassidan takes K two to get reprogrammed. But like this,
Speaker 2: this episode like ends on this on this Gorman cry
Speaker 2: for help, this like final broadcast done by Wilman's French
Speaker 2: GF And I I was legitimately tearing up at this.
Speaker 2: It got to me, and Ors starts tearing up, but
Speaker 2: like it's it, It really got to me. And then
Speaker 2: like we zoom out of Gorman and you can see
Speaker 2: like how unnatural the imperial like tower is above like
Speaker 2: the regular Palomo skyline with let's like you know, historical
Speaker 2: architecture that you have this like just just like hideous,
Speaker 2: like imperial like citadel, like casting a dark shadow over
Speaker 2: the town. And then we we cut to Cyril's mom
Speaker 2: crying watching Fox News where they're talking about how outside
Speaker 2: rebel assistance helped the Gorman front and they question, what's
Speaker 2: the price will pay for our own safety? And that's
Speaker 2: how the episode ends. M h, what aisode?
Speaker 1: What asode?
Speaker 2: All Right, we'll go on a break and then come
Speaker 2: back to briefly discuss this last episode, which is also
Speaker 2: quite good. Okay, we're back. Episode nine, Welcome to the Rebellion.
Speaker 2: Clone War's heads are feasting so much Senate very fun
Speaker 2: so on Coussant. Fake news spreads about what has happened
Speaker 2: on Gorman, and the Gorman senator is arrested with no
Speaker 2: warrant and no charges. Man Mathma plans to make a
Speaker 2: final speech in the Senate and then leave Coroissant with
Speaker 2: bail Organa to lead the rebel alliance on Yavin, but
Speaker 2: Senator Organa doesn't want to leave yet. He wants to
Speaker 2: stay and buy time for Yavin to get fully up
Speaker 2: and running, but he advises Man to go through with
Speaker 2: the speech and offers an extraction team to help her
Speaker 2: get off Corussant. While writing her speech, Man Mathma is
Speaker 2: the Senate aid Erskin finds an ISB listening device in
Speaker 2: her office. She goes outside to practice the speech, while
Speaker 2: Erskin continues to search for more bugs. Waiting outside for
Speaker 2: mon Is Luthan, who tells her that Erskin's been secretly
Speaker 2: working for him for two years and that Bail's extraction
Speaker 2: team is somehow corrupted. Man grows upset at Luthan's deceptions
Speaker 2: and secrets and is unsure of who to trust, but
Speaker 2: Luthan says that he is sending a highly trusted operative
Speaker 2: as an alternative extraction plan. Cassian, still undercover as a
Speaker 2: conflict journalist, agrees to escort Manmathma as his last job
Speaker 2: for the rebellion. Other senators mourned the Imperial martyrs slain
Speaker 2: by the Savage Gormans before Bail. Organa invokes a Senate
Speaker 2: article to hand the Florida mon Mathma, where she gives
Speaker 2: her speech, calling what's happened on Gorman a genocide and
Speaker 2: labels Emperor Palpatine, a monster that, empowered by the Senate,
Speaker 2: has hijacked the truth and reality. The ICB orders to
Speaker 2: shut down the Senate feed and detain Senator Mathma, but
Speaker 2: as Mon exits the Senate chamber, Cassian is waiting outside
Speaker 2: as Luthen suspected one of Bail's extraction team members is
Speaker 2: an ISB double agent, and kills another one of Baile's operatives.
Speaker 2: Once they're found out. The undercover ICB agent tries to
Speaker 2: arrest Mon, but is killed by Erskine and Cassian. Mon
Speaker 2: helps navigate through the Senate building as it's put into lockdown,
Speaker 2: eventually reaching her vehicle outside, where Cassian kills her driver, Chorus,
Speaker 2: who's also an i SB plant.
Speaker 1: Well was maybe we'll talk about that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Cassian takes Wilman to Yavin for medical attention while Gold
Speaker 2: Squadron finishes Mon's escort to the rebel base back on Base,
Speaker 2: Bix breaks up with Cassian via snapchat message and leaves
Speaker 2: Yavin to fight for the rebellion elsewhere and to keep
Speaker 2: Cassian on Yavin. Yeah, and later that day, rebel engineers
Speaker 2: reprogrammed the salvaged k extroid. Okay, this episode has a
Speaker 2: lot of politics, A lot of politicking, Yeah, a lot
Speaker 2: of capital senate stuff.
Speaker 1: I want to read a little bit from mon mathmaus
Speaker 1: speech here. Sure, what I think is kind of the
Speaker 1: the nut of it here, I believe we are in
Speaker 1: a crisis. The distance between what is said and what
Speaker 1: is known to be true has become an abyss. Of
Speaker 1: all the things at risk, the loss of an objective
Speaker 1: reality is perhaps the most dangerous. The death of truth
Speaker 1: is the ultimate victory of evil. When truth leaves us,
Speaker 1: when we let it slip away, when it is ripped
Speaker 1: from our hands, we become vulnerable to the appetite of
Speaker 1: whatever monster screams the loudest.
Speaker 2: Uh boy, it's a little orange mad bad. But hey,
Speaker 2: the orange man is bad.
Speaker 1: It's not just orange. It's making a broader, more historical point.
Speaker 2: That totally. Yes.
Speaker 1: The reason all of this works by destroying any kind
Speaker 1: of shared concept of reality, you can get people to
Speaker 1: If you can get people to believe absurdities, you can
Speaker 1: get them to commit atrocities. Right.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is what like the nazis understood as well.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I love that speech. I think it's really
Speaker 1: one of one of my favorite bits of this is
Speaker 1: that it continues to show the degree to which, as
Speaker 1: in Nimic's manifesto, tiny spontaneous individual acts of rebellion are
Speaker 1: constantly occurring and are a key part of the movement
Speaker 1: even when they're not organized. Mathma only gets through her
Speaker 1: speech and maybe only lives because a team of door
Speaker 1: repair guys who do not appear to be anyone's secret
Speaker 1: agents just fuck up purposefully at their job, like we
Speaker 1: can't get in.
Speaker 2: I don't know, man, we.
Speaker 1: Can't get into the fucking thing, Like you're gonna.
Speaker 2: Have to wait.
Speaker 1: We're still working on this, and it's kind of inferred that,
Speaker 1: like it's it's weaponized incompetence, right, and I really appreciate
Speaker 1: that bit. We have a showdown with her and her
Speaker 1: driver because she becomes aware before her speech that her driver,
Speaker 1: who she's been taking in as a confidant in the
Speaker 1: last couple episodes.
Speaker 2: Well, no, no, no, no, like her driver. She's known
Speaker 2: her driver, Chlorus, has been like isb for like two seasons.
Speaker 1: This is a different driver, I think than first this.
Speaker 2: Is the same driver, because she's been talking.
Speaker 1: She's been talking to Chlorus a couple of times. She
Speaker 1: makes a comment about that this one hurts.
Speaker 2: She's been talking to like Erskin, like, oh shit, yeah,
Speaker 2: she's she she's been getting closer to like her senate Aid.
Speaker 2: Corus has always been like a dipshit who they've kept
Speaker 2: around because he's like kind of bad at his job.
Speaker 2: He is bad at being an ISB, like like paid informant,
Speaker 2: so they like keep him around even though they know
Speaker 2: he's reporting to ISB.
Speaker 1: There's a little bit of an insinuation with him looking
Speaker 1: at his gun and listening to her that maybe he's
Speaker 1: rethinking things. But again, we never get the chance to
Speaker 1: see that because Cassian just shin.
Speaker 2: I think he's like thinking about if he's going to
Speaker 2: have like a rest or shoot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was my breed on it.
Speaker 1: I think he's making up his mind about what he's
Speaker 1: gonna do. And I don't think we actually see that,
Speaker 1: but I mean I think it's open to interpretation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because Cassian domes his little bettles.
Speaker 1: And does not take chances like that, he does not
Speaker 1: take chances.
Speaker 2: And also Cassian employs great tactics in asking man what
Speaker 2: his name is first, to engage him in conversation, to
Speaker 2: distract him enough to like totally surprise him. Yeah, very good.
Speaker 1: I also I like the one of the kind of
Speaker 1: it's not stated directly, but like Lana, the Imperial deep
Speaker 1: coverage within the ISB is the guy who put these
Speaker 1: people there, particularly the incompetent ISB agent who Cassie and
Speaker 1: first shoots the lady.
Speaker 2: The person who's infiltrated Man's team a Baile's team. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like the reason why Luthan knows that there's something wrong
Speaker 2: with Baile's team is because the agent that has that
Speaker 2: has infiltrated like Baile's network is one of Lonnie's agents.
Speaker 2: So Lonnie was able to get word to Luthen that
Speaker 2: there could be a problem with with Baile's extraction team
Speaker 2: and that's what that's what helps helps get mont Yavin safely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's just kind of more confirmation of the
Speaker 1: value of Lonnie of yeah, having him there and how
Speaker 1: he how much he was worth the sacrifice of Ando
Speaker 1: Krieger and his rebels and season one.
Speaker 2: No Lonnie, Lonnie is MVP uh. Like a lot of
Speaker 2: this episode is kind of showing how much Luthen's Accelerationist
Speaker 2: project has kind of succeeded, like like how much he's
Speaker 2: he's in somewhat set up Gorman, or at least like
Speaker 2: fed the fire of Gorman slightly to create this political
Speaker 2: crisis to further his like accelerationist goal of creating this
Speaker 2: like big conflict, and like we see some of that
Speaker 2: start to work out, even though Luthen himself is like
Speaker 2: having a much harder time and the kind of the
Speaker 2: house of cards he's built is starting to crumble and
Speaker 2: he's probably not gonna be able to work with many
Speaker 2: people for for very much longer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's like, that's the other thing I want
Speaker 3: to mention about this episode about the way Luthen operates
Speaker 3: is that because the way Luthen operates is by fucking
Speaker 3: not telling anyone anything and by manipulating people and by
Speaker 3: spying on them, and by like having this whole network
Speaker 3: of double agents and like people who doesn't like the
Speaker 3: problem with operating like that, And this is the problem
Speaker 3: that he's running into here is like mon Mathma does
Speaker 3: not fucking trust him because the thing that she learned
Speaker 3: when Luthen comes to.
Speaker 2: Tell her, like, hey, the you can't go with Bail's team.
Speaker 3: Yeah, bails team is.
Speaker 2: Going to kill you.
Speaker 3: She's like, you fucking this you've had my own aids
Speaker 3: spying on me for two What the fuck? Yeah, Like
Speaker 3: it's like like this this is like a persistent problem
Speaker 3: with the like and you start to see this, have
Speaker 3: have we surround have we seen Vell like not working
Speaker 3: with him anymore? I think we have in these episodes.
Speaker 1: Uh Vell does not seem to be working with him anymore.
Speaker 1: She's more or less completely gone in on the actual
Speaker 1: like military part of the alliance vels on.
Speaker 3: Yeah then yeah, well and this and this is that
Speaker 3: this is the thing about this is like you get
Speaker 3: to watch every one walking away from Yah. You get
Speaker 3: to watch everyone who Luthen had worked. Everyone walks away
Speaker 3: with him because they're like this guy keeps being an asshole,
Speaker 3: and he keeps hiding things with people, and he keeps
Speaker 3: manipulating everyone, and it's like it's like he's doing and
Speaker 3: this is this is like also this is a kind
Speaker 3: of person also that you run into where it's like
Speaker 3: they're doing really important work and also interpersonally they're impossible
Speaker 3: to fucking work with and like like and you can
Speaker 3: you can watch it even with this having like real
Speaker 3: political gratifications. Yeah, where it's just like no, this guy
Speaker 3: has been just like jerking our chain around and like
Speaker 3: lying to us and manipulating us for so long that
Speaker 3: all of the relationships that he needs are breaking down
Speaker 3: and it's no longer a position where because he's the
Speaker 3: guy with the money in the arms and the coordination,
Speaker 3: everyone has to work with him. They now have a
Speaker 3: choice to like go do literally anything else. And everyone
Speaker 3: keeps walking away, and it like almost gets mon Mathma
Speaker 3: killed because she's so pissed at him that he's been
Speaker 3: like spy having her.
Speaker 2: Spye on, but it it also saves her, Like it's
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a double It does seem distrust with Mon,
Speaker 2: but it also is what.
Speaker 1: God, because it is it is him who gets Mom out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's like it's just this like really messy.
Speaker 2: That's what makes them a good character is that he
Speaker 2: is both like he understands who he is. He's like
Speaker 2: fucked up and morally compromised and is obviously hashtag problematic,
Speaker 2: but it's also completely necessary within the plot that they've created, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and like somewhat defensible, and like he knows that he's
Speaker 2: like fucked like he he says, like there's no Yavin
Speaker 2: for me, I'm I'm not going to gav and I'm
Speaker 2: never going to see the sunrise. Like that's not what
Speaker 2: my role is. I have to be the asshole here.
Speaker 2: And yeah it sucks. And we start to see like
Speaker 2: his fake Luthen like gallery persona starting to collapse here too,
Speaker 2: Like yeah, this whole episode, he's not in his like wag,
Speaker 2: He's not in his like fancy clothes. He is like
Speaker 2: insurgent Luthen like this this this rule that he's he's
Speaker 2: cultivated these past few years is no longer needed and
Speaker 2: it does have negative consequences. Yeah, man is not trusting
Speaker 2: him in this moment where she kind of really has to,
Speaker 2: Like mon thinks that Luthan might just be trying to
Speaker 2: like protect himself, that Luthen might not actually care about
Speaker 2: Mont's own safety. Cassie and is tired of always being
Speaker 2: a tool for someone else and is dealing with trauma
Speaker 2: and burnout and Erskine's just caught in the middle of
Speaker 2: this hole, this this whole ship storm and yeah, this
Speaker 2: is this is what makes it compelling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's just good character writing.
Speaker 2: We've all been bent by secrecy, is what he says.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and by God he has. And there's there's
Speaker 1: a couple of really good moments in this that I
Speaker 1: don't want to skip over. There's the next year in
Speaker 1: Next Year in Yavin moment between Mon Mathma and Bail Arghana,
Speaker 1: which I saw someone on Twitter, uh decree to be
Speaker 1: Zionist propaganda. I'm sorry, like that that is definitely based
Speaker 1: on next Year in Jerusalem, a term that has been
Speaker 1: in use for like way more than half of a millennia.
Speaker 1: That is, has nothing to do with Zionism. You're just
Speaker 1: being racist, I'm sorry. And it's a nice like it's
Speaker 1: a I think, a nice nod to the travails of
Speaker 1: like what we are seeing is like a diaspora, right,
Speaker 1: as people have to flee their homes to participate in
Speaker 1: the rebellion.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I think it's an appropriate kind of callback to real
Speaker 1: world history there and the line where I think that
Speaker 1: moment between her and Bail works really effectively and the
Speaker 1: thing that he's doing works really effectively.
Speaker 2: This interaction between her and Bail also shows like the
Speaker 2: difference between how Bail operates Luther and operates because like
Speaker 2: Mon asks Bail if he trust his people, like like
Speaker 2: if he trusts his extraction team, and he says like
Speaker 2: of course, yeah, but he but but he has to
Speaker 2: admit that he doesn't actually know them personally for quote
Speaker 2: unquote safety, and like this is this is where it
Speaker 2: shows like the difference someone like Bail, who's maybe less
Speaker 2: manipulative than Luthen, maybe a little bit less morally compromised
Speaker 2: than Luthen, but also in in moments like this, like
Speaker 2: the in specific moments like this comes up a little
Speaker 2: bit short compared to Luthen's uh, like you know, semi
Speaker 2: semi like destructive and like bridge burning tactics, which would
Speaker 2: which she which he openly describes as bridge burning. I
Speaker 2: think I think this episode like, are are there any
Speaker 2: bridges you haven't burned yet? Well, we're gonna deal with
Speaker 2: that soon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we will be dealing with that soon. I would
Speaker 1: like to call out mon Mathma's face acting and both
Speaker 1: the scenes were Cassie and just immediately domes some motherfuckers,
Speaker 1: Jack my god.
Speaker 2: Incredible stuff.
Speaker 1: She's she's known intellectually and it's even hit her because
Speaker 1: she had a friend of hers killed right a former lover.
Speaker 1: She didn't order it, but it was done, and she
Speaker 1: knew it was happening, so she's not she had to
Speaker 1: cope with it totally nai, but the rebellions, I would argue,
Speaker 1: not fully real to her until she sees a man
Speaker 1: shot through the brains.
Speaker 2: It's funny because she, like like minutes earlier, has a
Speaker 2: line where she's like, like, hiding in this seen it
Speaker 2: this whole time, will have been the hardest thing we've
Speaker 2: ever done, and then it's immediately faced with the lethal
Speaker 2: consequences for her actions. Yeah, it's like I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's much worse.
Speaker 3: Well, and it's also like its interesting too because it's
Speaker 3: like the second person she's seen shot in this episode, right,
Speaker 3: because like there's also like the first I s P
Speaker 3: agent who they have shot. But it's like she doesn't
Speaker 3: know the person she knows, right, No, it's just like
Speaker 3: some cop and the known Chlorus for years.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's just watched her just like ye nope
Speaker 3: and and the way and just yeah no dead media. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and she's like, oh shit, would have I gotten myself
Speaker 3: into Lutan's strongest soldiers killed two undercover is s B
Speaker 3: this episode?
Speaker 2: Give them a hand, folks, Yeah, No, this is this
Speaker 2: is a really a really a really sleek as I
Speaker 2: do like that that like Bail's like Infiltrator, has like
Speaker 2: a real isb look to her face. As soon as
Speaker 2: I saw that actress, I'm like, that one has got
Speaker 2: to be the undercover.
Speaker 3: Is b right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she just got that.
Speaker 2: Fabulous That ib jaw very good.
Speaker 1: There's one thing I'd like to bring up at the
Speaker 1: end of these episodes that's kind of a callback to
Speaker 1: the very first episode of the show. Is the first
Speaker 1: time we see our boy cyreal, he's just convinced that
Speaker 1: something is and people I've seen people point out Zerios
Speaker 1: actually really good at his job. He points this out that,
Speaker 1: like I solved a murder in two days, right, he
Speaker 1: figured out who who had killed these officers very quickly.
Speaker 1: And one of my favorite little undercutting of serial points
Speaker 1: is that his boss solves it even faster, like in
Speaker 1: that first conversation, because his boss is an older guy,
Speaker 1: he's a corporate cop. He clearly has been doing whatever
Speaker 1: he's been doing since probably before the Clone Wars, right,
Speaker 1: He's been nearer the end of his career than the beginning.
Speaker 1: And he doesn't like the empire, right, He's not even
Speaker 1: that much of a law and order guy. He's more
Speaker 1: of a get through the day and do my fucking
Speaker 1: job guy. When Cyril brings up Cassie and killing these cops,
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, man, they're at a brothel. I know
Speaker 1: their salaries. They can't afford that. They were shaking people down.
Speaker 1: They shake the wrong guy down and they got killed.
Speaker 1: Best to ignore it. You don't want the empire over here.
Speaker 1: And every aspect of Cyril's life would have been better
Speaker 1: if he'd listened to this guy who I'm sure spins
Speaker 1: the rest of the empire, sitting on like barely notices
Speaker 1: the end of things. You know, he's probably retired by then.
Speaker 1: Just a shout out to the smartest, the smartest guy
Speaker 1: in security services we meet over the course of these
Speaker 1: entire series, that old dude at the desk who's like,
Speaker 1: not worth it, not getting into it. Yeah, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: ask anybody anything.
Speaker 2: Ah, Poor poor Cyril, what a little weasel Leah.
Speaker 1: And n he fucked up, he fucked up bad.
Speaker 2: I love I always love being in the Senate. She
Speaker 2: does call the Gordon massacre genocide, performs the whole speech
Speaker 2: very very solid, acting as usual. Genevievel Riley fantastic work
Speaker 2: as Asma on this entire season.
Speaker 1: Everyone's great. God damn we shulll just talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about Dedri's breakdown after the Gorman.
Speaker 2: Master Yeah in episode eighth, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which also does fit into the whole who
Speaker 1: are you thing where we see that she's not like
Speaker 1: a complete sociopath, right, She's not absolutely devoid of horror
Speaker 1: over what she's doing. She's just willing to accept the
Speaker 1: horror in order to get what she wants out of life,
Speaker 1: which I think is just like a much more realistic
Speaker 1: portrayal of human evil than we tend to get.
Speaker 2: Yeah. She finds ways to cope and justify. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: like you know, Lonnie is having to find ways to
Speaker 2: cope and justify, but he's doing that through being a
Speaker 2: double agent and feeding and feeding Luthen like very very
Speaker 2: important intel as we see in this episode and the
Speaker 2: next let's see. Yeah, I think this is this is
Speaker 2: most of what I what I had on on on thisisode.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean Bix Bix bricks up with Cassian
Speaker 2: to force Cassie to stay in the in the Alliance,
Speaker 2: even though he's probably not gonna be working with Luthan again.
Speaker 2: I'll have more to say about BIS next week.
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, yeah, I mean I have a lot
Speaker 1: to say about this, but I think we'll wait until
Speaker 1: last episode to fully discuss BIX. I think that's probably best.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. But but this, this batch specifically, I think
Speaker 2: is some is some real solid, real solid sows. Wow
Speaker 2: Star Wars.
Speaker 1: The stars have never been more Wars. Garrison, the Stars
Speaker 1: have never been more wars. Can all agree on that.
Speaker 3: It could happen?
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Speaker 3: Can now find sources for it could Happen here listed
Speaker 3: directly in episode descriptions.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.