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Speaker 1: Cool Zone media. Oh my god, it's it's it could

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Speaker 1: happen here, it is, and it's talking about it happening here,

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Speaker 1: you know about uh what we're you know, what's happening

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Speaker 1: in a galaxy far far away. These are the and

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Speaker 1: Or episodes we're talking about episodes Jesus, what is it?

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Speaker 2: Seven through nine and then through nine.

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Speaker 1: Seven through nine of and Or Season two, when this

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Speaker 1: is done, will be three quarters of the way over with.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the best seasons of television ever made.

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Speaker 1: So you know, savor it, folks, enjoy it, and enjoy

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Speaker 1: these podcasts. Yeah, eloquent Garrison, thank you, Thank you me

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Speaker 1: hearties raised the Hondo Anaka flag.

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Speaker 2: And let's watch some and Or. This is episode three

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Speaker 2: of our Star Wars and Or Politics review podcast. The

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Speaker 2: person grumbling in the intro is Robert Evans. I'm Garrison Davis.

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Speaker 2: We are all so joined by Mia Wong. Let's start

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Speaker 2: with episode seven. I think this arc in general might

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Speaker 2: be my favorite arc of the whole show. Frankly, they

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Speaker 2: did some really fun stuff. Oh yeah, and seven's mostly

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Speaker 2: set up. This is episode seven, titled Messenger. I'll do

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Speaker 2: a quick overview and then we can discuss some of

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Speaker 2: the set up to the Gorman massacre. So rebel militias

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Speaker 2: are forming an army on the fourth moon of Yavin.

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Speaker 2: Willman returns from the planet Gorman with a special mission

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Speaker 2: for Cassian Loosen Once isb agent Dedra Miro assassinated to

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Speaker 2: protect the Axis network. The Empires failed to secure an

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Speaker 2: alternative to the Gorman mineral calkite, and ISP command tells

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Speaker 2: Dedra that an Imperial fleet will be sent to Gorman

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Speaker 2: in two days and to prepare for a declaration of

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Speaker 2: Marshall domain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to note at the start of this

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Speaker 1: kind of what we see because we're watching one year

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Speaker 1: jumps between these, this is the first time where it's

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Speaker 1: been made really clear the rebellion has moved on from

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Speaker 1: scattered insurgent groups to a functional army. Like when we're

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Speaker 1: introduced to Yavin, there's a transport landing, a group of

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Speaker 1: soldiers are getting off and they're being told like, okay,

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Speaker 1: your ration cards are here, and like you need to

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Speaker 1: report in here and here this is where you're billeted.

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Speaker 1: It's very like standard professional military stuff. So we are

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Speaker 1: now at the point where the rebellion that and or

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Speaker 1: has been portraying previously is not around anymore. The rebellion

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Speaker 1: has moved on largely, and those old networks still exist

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Speaker 1: to some extent, but that is not the heart of

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Speaker 1: it anymore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a big part of what this episode

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Speaker 2: is starting to set up now on Gorman. Imperial presence

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Speaker 2: on the planet has already increased dramatically in the past year.

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Speaker 2: A new imperial headquarters the towers above the capital city

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Speaker 2: of Palmo. Security forces are stationed throughout the city with

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Speaker 2: checkpoints and a mandatory curfew. The past few weeks there's

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Speaker 2: been story of insurgent attacks against the Empire, most recently

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Speaker 2: the bombing of a naval depot. Imperial News reports that

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Speaker 2: quote unquote inexplicable Gorman terrorists.

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Speaker 1: Their hate for imperial norms.

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Speaker 2: Are getting help from quote unquote outside agitators.

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Speaker 1: Which is not untrue actually for once, but also not

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Speaker 1: like the core of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and

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Speaker 1: I think that that's part of the part of the point, right,

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Speaker 1: like that, that's part of what Luthen's going for, is

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Speaker 1: he wants to keep them sort of obsessed with this

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Speaker 1: side of things, in part because Luthan knows that it's

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Speaker 1: moved on right, Like Luthen knows that the rebellion is

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Speaker 1: in Yavin, now you know he is. He's not entirely

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Speaker 1: a side show, but he's no longer the heart of it.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, every resource they waste looking at his network

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Speaker 1: is a time they're not spent looking at Yavin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Luthan's still trying. I mean, like the outside

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Speaker 2: agitators here is probably mostly like Luthen's guys who've been

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Speaker 2: trying to build up the insurgency on Gorman simply to

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Speaker 2: make some sort of political crisis and then you know,

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Speaker 2: also help the people who have already committed to resisting

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Speaker 2: the Empire, help them actually, like do that beyond what

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Speaker 2: the Gorman Front has been like, parading around and doing

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Speaker 2: you know, little little protests in front of the memorial

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Speaker 2: for the past few years. Lucien was like, if these

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Speaker 2: guys want to do this seriously, let's let's see what

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Speaker 2: happens when we do it seriously. And that's kind of

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Speaker 2: what we've resulted to here. The Empire has sent a

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Speaker 2: quote unquote crisis specialist and a riot team to assist

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Speaker 2: Dedra in managing any civil unrest. Cyril Karn starts questioning

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Speaker 2: what the Empire wants with Gorman and what he's really

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Speaker 2: been doing these past two years. Yeah, Detra tells him

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Speaker 2: to packs things as they'll soon be leaving together for Corussant.

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Speaker 2: Back on Yavin four, Bicks takes a skeptical Cassion to

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Speaker 2: a Force healer to help with a stubborn blaster burn.

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Speaker 2: Though Cassian resists, the healer can sense that Cassian is

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Speaker 2: somehow important. He has main character energy. Cassian is split

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Speaker 2: between Luthen and the growing organized rebellion Yeah, but decides

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Speaker 2: to take a rebel you Wing Starfighter to Gorman and

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Speaker 2: undercover as a journalist. Cassian checks into the hotel at

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Speaker 2: Palmo Square and sets his sights on isb Agent de

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Speaker 2: dra m hm. So, Yeah, a lot of this episode

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Speaker 2: is like showing how the rebels are actually like growing

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Speaker 2: an army before they've really put together the formal rebel alliance,

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Speaker 2: like they're they're getting so much closer to that, but

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Speaker 2: at this point it's it's like a whole bunch of

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Speaker 2: little like militias that are operating on the same base

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Speaker 2: and are starting to set up like rules and guidelines,

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Speaker 2: and like Cassian butts up against some of those rules

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Speaker 2: a little bit here.

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Speaker 1: Because he can't go and come as he pleases anymore, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it gets him in trouble with General Draven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just rebel cells that are operating independently.

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Speaker 2: Now they are trying out working together and that has

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Speaker 2: some growing pains.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, and it's not just working together too, Like it's

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Speaker 3: it's the command structure totally. Structure is becoming increasingly centralized

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Speaker 3: in a way that it hasn't been. Well, it's the

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Speaker 3: previous to this has been like the centralizing thing has

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Speaker 3: been like Luthen kind of being an asshole to everyone

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Speaker 3: but like moving stuff between them. And now it's like.

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Speaker 2: Or Sagarera, right where where he operates as like a

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Speaker 2: cult of personality type thing with his own militia.

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, well, but I mean I mean like between

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Speaker 3: all of the different networks the central Yeah. And now

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Speaker 3: it's like, no, we have this place where we're developing

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Speaker 3: a chain of command and we're developing these sort of

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Speaker 3: like totally we're going to become increasingly rigid like hierarchies.

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Speaker 3: And in this, in this whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Luthen's becoming a somewhat controversial figure and is kind of

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Speaker 2: getting pushed out of the actual organized rebellion because he's

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Speaker 2: a little bit difficult to work with, Yeah, because he's

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Speaker 2: an asshole.

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Speaker 1: Like it's like, yeah, well he's he's he's doing what

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Speaker 1: he has to do. I mean, I'm I'm I'm Luthen's

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Speaker 1: last defender. If he's only got one fan, it's me.

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Speaker 1: And Luthan is doing is handling this exactly how he

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Speaker 1: has to. There's no room to be nice and there's

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Speaker 1: no room for anybody's feelings in this. But that you know,

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Speaker 1: what we do see is people choosing.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I want to be involved in this kind of bigger

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Speaker 1: and more structured thing where the way I am treated

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Speaker 1: is less dependent upon the whims of this guy at

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Speaker 1: the spoke, where I don't get to know anything, where

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Speaker 1: there is a command structure, where there is there is

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Speaker 1: a degree to which it's more like predictable how things

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Speaker 1: will be day to day. Right, A lot of people

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Speaker 1: do prefer that. Yeah, And also this at this stage

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Speaker 1: of the rebellion, if you're going to take on a

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Speaker 1: military like this, you need a formalized course, you need

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Speaker 1: more of a command structure, you need a chain of command,

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Speaker 1: and people need to know who is calling shots in

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Speaker 1: what situations because you simply can't function effectively in a

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Speaker 1: large scale in combat without it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we'll talk more about kind of Luthen's situation

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Speaker 2: in episode nine. Luthen of it all, because then that

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Speaker 2: kind of gets more into like what his current place

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Speaker 2: is in the rebellion, but like really like the role

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Speaker 2: that he occupied is is frankly no longer needed, Like

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Speaker 2: like and he's even acknowledging this, like they're they're they're

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Speaker 2: going beyond the sort of like you know, like small

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Speaker 2: scale like intel network, arms deals, like all this type

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Speaker 2: of like like covert you know, the Eldni raid. They're

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Speaker 2: growing beyond what Luthen really specialized in. And and now

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Speaker 2: they're doing a full on military and and Luthen's always

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Speaker 2: been operating kind of like a DIY like spy agency,

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Speaker 2: and and now they're they're put they're they're doing a

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Speaker 2: whole military and and that kind of butts up against

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Speaker 2: how Luthen like what wants to operate and like what

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Speaker 2: he's like frankly just capable of doing. Like he's he

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Speaker 2: understands the importance of Yaben, but he's also okay with

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Speaker 2: not being there in person.

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Speaker 1: Well I don't think he thinks he fits there right exactly?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like his whole thing has is such a an

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Speaker 1: idiosyncratic organization' that's just based around him and Claiya, you know, this,

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Speaker 1: this young woman that he works with. Like there's no

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Speaker 1: place for him in a military command structure. That's not

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Speaker 1: his thing.

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Speaker 2: The other thing this episode really focuses on is like,

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Speaker 2: you know, news propaganda and like the idea of like

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Speaker 2: like terrorism outside agitators and using those things as justifications

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Speaker 2: for state crackdowns. The senator from Gorman talks with mon

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Speaker 2: Mathma about about how he believes that like the Empire

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Speaker 2: is lying about what's happening on Gorman and these bombings

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Speaker 2: must be like a false flag attack. So you got

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Speaker 2: to see a whole bunch of different people's perspectives and

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Speaker 2: like validity of the actions that are happening on Gorman.

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Speaker 2: Like there's there's questions over like who's doing this. Is

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Speaker 2: the state just making these things up so that they

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Speaker 2: have a justification to crack down on us? Are these

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Speaker 2: things genuine or are they are they being done by

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Speaker 2: by people on Gorman who are like aligned with the

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Speaker 2: resistance but maybe are getting like outside help. You have

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Speaker 2: all those sorts of questions, and then the news medias

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Speaker 2: like manufacturing consent for an imperial crackdown like what was

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Speaker 2: discussed in like the very first episode.

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Speaker 3: It's very it's very seventies Italy, like because there's these

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Speaker 3: bombings happening, because there's all this weird shit and because

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Speaker 3: nobody knows exactly who's doing what, everyone is like kind

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Speaker 3: of become conspiracy brained and like half the conspiracies are true,

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Speaker 3: but not only ones people think are the ones that

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Speaker 3: are true. And it's it's just like the information space

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Speaker 3: has become so messy when you're dealing with such a

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Speaker 3: combination of like of like of these attacks and of

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Speaker 3: these like different kinds of above and below ground organizations

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Speaker 3: where nobody knows exactly, no one's exactly talking to each other,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, it just gets so messy so quickly.

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Speaker 2: Even the Gorman Front itself is like debating this. Like

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Speaker 2: they had this whole meeting where they discussed like tactics,

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Speaker 2: like the role of the role of violence, and like,

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Speaker 2: as these big arguments erupt, they start to reflect on

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Speaker 2: how the empire is actually like set them up for infighting,

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Speaker 2: and the most time they spend doing this, the less

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Speaker 2: time they're actually doing anything helpful on Gorman or like

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Speaker 2: doing anything that actually can secure their own like liberation

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Speaker 2: or their own like you know, combat against the suppressive force.

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Speaker 1: There's a good part in that scene where they're debating

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Speaker 1: it where the guy who gets who kind of stumbles

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Speaker 1: upon them doing the robbery. Yeah in the last like yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it has a speech where he's basically like, look, man,

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Speaker 1: everyone's like whatever they're doing, whatever their attitude about the

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Speaker 1: right way to resist, they're all Gorman's to me, and

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Speaker 1: so they're all on my side. Yeah, right, And I

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Speaker 1: like the way that he that he expressed that because

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Speaker 1: it very much as we're going to talk about next episode.

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Speaker 1: It comports with who that guy is as a as

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Speaker 1: a resistor. Right.

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Speaker 2: There's like national identity is a big concept in these episodes,

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Speaker 2: but not in like a fascistic nationalist sense.

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Speaker 1: No, as in, we're all in this, We're all going

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Speaker 1: to hang together, is what I think he's saying, like

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Speaker 1: like national solidarity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, it's like eighteen twenties kind of like or

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Speaker 3: even like Ireland, right, like yeah, yeah, and like you know,

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Speaker 3: I can give a speech here about where this is

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Speaker 3: going in about how shin Fein's like Tarty gets imbigers

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Speaker 3: and trans people, but it's also like that's just like

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Speaker 3: that what's happening right now. This is like eighteen twenty,

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Speaker 3: not like nineteen twenty.

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Speaker 2: The last thing I want to talk about in this

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Speaker 2: arc before we go on break is this Force healer

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Speaker 2: that Cassian reluctantly visits in the Yavin for mess Hall. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this was a super interesting scene to me, and this

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Speaker 2: is the first time we have seen any mention of

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Speaker 2: the Force. Really. Yeah, this is like the big spiritual

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Speaker 2: moment in this series, and Or has kind of veered

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Speaker 2: away from like the mystical side of Star Wars in

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Speaker 2: favor of the more like materialist politics the Star Wars.

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Speaker 2: That they concluded this here, I thought was really interesting

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Speaker 2: and really well done. And the reason why I like

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Speaker 2: it so much is that, like throughout the Rebel Alliance,

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Speaker 2: they always like agreet each other and like say goodbye

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Speaker 2: by saying may the Force be with you, which is

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Speaker 2: a little bit odd because the Rebel Alliance isn't like

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Speaker 2: a Jedi revivalist They're not like a Force cult in

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Speaker 2: the way that so many other groups and you know

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Speaker 2: Star Wars TM are and the fact that you have

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Speaker 2: people who engage with the Force and it's more like

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Speaker 2: regular manner, more similar to like kind of like hippie

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Speaker 2: woo spiritualist stuff that that props up in like radical

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Speaker 2: spaces I find really interesting. Yeah, And obviously in Star

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Speaker 2: Wars that has more of like a legitimate backing because

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Speaker 2: we all recognize the forces real. In Star Wars, the

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Speaker 2: Force is fake, it's a psio.

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Speaker 3: It's just the alien god thing in the Black Holes Force.

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Speaker 1: In part what I love that and er is how

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Speaker 1: big it makes the universe seem because Cassian. Cassian isn't

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Speaker 1: like he doesn't have like the you know, there's that

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Speaker 1: line in a New Hope where basically Hans like I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like Han's clearly heard of the Jedi, but

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Speaker 1: he's like I don't need like I don't give a

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Speaker 1: shit about this.

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Speaker 2: I don't need hokey religions or special efforts.

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Speaker 1: It's like somebody talking about yeah, like like Wicca, right,

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Speaker 1: Like if you're just like a Doude who's a fucking

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Speaker 1: drug dealer, You're like, I don't need to hear about that. Man,

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Speaker 1: I got, I got fucking.

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Speaker 3: Heroin to move, Like, yeah, it's very it's very much

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Speaker 3: like it's it's very much like faith Healer coded. It's like,

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Speaker 3: oh god, no, I'm not gonna see the faith Healer

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Speaker 3: come on, Like no, yeah, And and he talks about

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Speaker 3: how him and his like his mom had like a

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Speaker 3: bad experience with a horse a healer like ten years ago,

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Speaker 3: and you're like, this is this is a whole like

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Speaker 3: scam operation as well, Yeah, like fake force healers.

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Speaker 1: And beyond that, the thing that's unset is what we

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Speaker 1: know about Cassie, and is he was raised on a

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Speaker 1: planet completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy.

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Speaker 1: His childhood was as a hunter gatherer in the deep jungle,

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Speaker 1: and he was, presumably, as all peoples in that situation

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Speaker 1: always have, raised with a set of beliefs about the

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Speaker 1: universe and spirituality that were completely shattered when his entire

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Speaker 1: planet was annihilated by the Empire.

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Speaker 2: Right, was it by the Republic?

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Speaker 1: Well it was, it was it was in that transition

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Speaker 1: of the.

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Speaker 2: Fuzio between the Republic and the Empire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, But of course he doesn't belie even anything correct,

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Speaker 1: Like he had some sort of set of beliefs, and

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Speaker 1: the entire cosmology of his planet was annihilated, Like why

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Speaker 1: would he believe in anything?

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Speaker 2: I just like what this does for like the Alliance itself,

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Speaker 2: and it shows that the Force is like a regular

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Speaker 2: part of these people's lives. And like specifically the way

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Speaker 2: the Force Healer talks is more about like the Force

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Speaker 2: as this as this like operator of like fate and destiny.

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Speaker 2: And it can sense that Cassie and Andor is the

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Speaker 2: main character in Rogue Wan a Star Wars story, and

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Speaker 2: is important for the story of Star Wars, and she

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Speaker 2: can feel that this is important, and so condicts and

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Speaker 2: and and Or is also freaked out by that like feeling.

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Speaker 2: And I do like that version of the Force a lot.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a much more interesting way to do

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Speaker 2: it than just like you know, force cults in like

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Speaker 2: a forever religious war with each other for thousands of years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you pas us an unbelievably large amount of money,

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Speaker 3: Gearson and I will have our six hour argument. We

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Speaker 3: will every time about the Force with Star Wars. I

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Speaker 3: do also like that it's not one hundred percent clear

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Speaker 3: that this person is even for sensitive.

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Speaker 2: She can like feel through the force but like everyone

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Speaker 2: can with some degree of training.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's well, but it's it's it's also like

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Speaker 3: not clear that it's like like she's just a girl,

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Speaker 3: she's yeah, yeah, but like if it's.

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Speaker 1: Not a hundred his back seems to feel better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, yeah, totally yeah.

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Speaker 3: But but but but also like that's the thing, like

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Speaker 3: it's it's not it's not like a thing like Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is like a Jedi, right, they're using the Force,

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Speaker 3: and you could tell using the Force. This is a

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Speaker 3: lot more kind of like nebulous, and it's not one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent clear if it's happening or if it's everyone

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Speaker 3: is like I think just thinks that it's happening, or

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Speaker 3: like what's you know, it's it's very no, yeah, that's.

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Speaker 2: Why I like it, Like, yeah, it's it's not a Jedi,

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Speaker 2: it's just it's just someone and everyone in this universe

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Speaker 2: can have a connection with the Force because that's how

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Speaker 2: this universe works, and some people don't want to or

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Speaker 2: think it's fake, and other people get really into it.

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Speaker 2: Some people get way too into it, and then they

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Speaker 2: and then they do genocides in the name of the

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Speaker 2: of their religious order. But for a lot of people

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Speaker 2: like this who aren't like a Jedi. You aren't like

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Speaker 2: a sith or you know, a whatever, a guardian of

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Speaker 2: the wills. God, it's just a thing you can like

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Speaker 2: connect with and you can like feel your way through

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Speaker 2: like fate and destiny.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I really like that. They must have there

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Speaker 1: must have been a discussion, should we have her say

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Speaker 1: she used to be like a paddaw Right who somehow

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Speaker 1: escaped Order sixty six.

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Speaker 2: That must have been God, she's not.

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Speaker 1: Thank God, they just didn't. We don't know what she

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Speaker 1: don't care need to tell her matter because no one

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Speaker 1: in the situation would give a shit. Yeah, Cassiean's not

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Speaker 1: gonna be like, so yeah, tell me about like your

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Speaker 1: fucking bad. He doesn't give He doesn't give a fuck.

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Speaker 1: There's so much else going on in his head at

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Speaker 1: that moment.

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Speaker 2: So much better that she's just a random person.

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Speaker 1: And we never know. We never know.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's go and break and come back to

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Speaker 2: talk about the Gorman massacre. Yay, Okay, we are back

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Speaker 2: and ors he's in two, episode eight eight. Who are you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Ugh, I just I will talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: the name of this episode. Oh yeah, baby, because I

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Speaker 1: love it because it's it's just some of the best

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Speaker 1: writing that this show or any show has ever had. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: please go ahead and give us the over there.

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Speaker 2: Let's let's do a quick run down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: As mining equipment lands across Gorman, troops barricade the Imperial

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Speaker 2: headquarters in Palmo Square as they prepare for a mass protest.

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Speaker 2: The Gorman Front prepares to retake the town square, distributing

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Speaker 2: weapons and rallying just regular Gorman citizens to march on

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Speaker 2: the town center. The old leader of the Front realizes

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Speaker 2: too late that this protest is probably an Imperial trap

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Speaker 2: and is powerless to stop this unfolding spectacle. He encounters

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Speaker 2: a Cyril Kern on his way to the Imperial HQ

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Speaker 2: and confronts Cyril about misleading the Gorman Resistance and why

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Speaker 2: the Empire is mining on Gorman.

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Speaker 1: Oh, and this scene is the guy who plays there's

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Speaker 1: so many great monologues in this The dude who plays Rylands,

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Speaker 1: who is the old rich guy who's kind of the

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Speaker 1: organizing center of the Gorman Front.

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Speaker 2: The original one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, has a beautiful speech here where he's just how

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Speaker 1: can you say these things?

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Speaker 2: What kind of being are you?

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Speaker 1: What kind of being, are you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's excellent, It's perfect, It's devastating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Cyril breaks free and makes his way through the

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Speaker 2: chanting crowd that's filled a square.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: After arriving at the barricaded Imperial Tower, Cyril sneaks into

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Speaker 2: Dedra's office to demand to know what the Empire wants

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Speaker 2: on Gorman. He chokes Dedra as she confesses that this

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Speaker 2: has all been for the Emperor's new energy program, and

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Speaker 2: she promises that they will soon return to Corussant as heroes.

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Speaker 1: We'll get everything we want. The Empire will reward us

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Speaker 1: for our loyalty. Is this is it? This is the

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Speaker 1: last fucked up thing we have to do and then

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Speaker 1: we can live happily ever after.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, didn't you want this promotion?

400
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. She says that this might be the previous

401
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: episode or this one, but like when Zerol like kind

402
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 2: of like protests that just like, yeah, but you weren't

403
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 2: complaining when you got promoted into this job. But Zero

404
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: wishes Dedra good luck, and he leaves to join the

405
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Speaker 2: crowd outside Cassie and is stationed on the outskirts of

406
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Speaker 2: the crowd, trying to line up a shot to take

407
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Speaker 2: out Dedra, but stormtroopers soon kettle the crowd and Imperial

408
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Speaker 2: riot cops are sent into the square to jumpstart a

409
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Speaker 2: flash point. Protesters throw rocks and bottles, but it's an

410
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Speaker 2: Imperial sniper who is ordered to shoot their own riot

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Speaker 2: cops that starts the Gorman massacre.

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Speaker 1: And they make the beautiful point. The kettling is done

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Speaker 1: by stormtroopers who are the elite, right, These are their

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Speaker 1: very best infantry, the riot cops. From the moment they're introduced,

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Speaker 1: because we see these guys land with their kit bags,

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Speaker 1: their sergeant clearly has a lot more experience and is like,

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Speaker 1: these guys don't know what the fuck they're doing. We

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Speaker 1: cannot put them in any kind of dangerous and that's

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Speaker 1: the point. That's why they're there. These men were handpicked

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Speaker 1: to be the worst of the Empire. Here's they're expendable, right,

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Speaker 1: and because you can count on them to panic, and

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Speaker 1: that's what's needed.

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Speaker 2: They're cannon fodders. Yeah, they're sacrificial lambs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now, Sir Cyril watches the chaos unfold as the Gorman

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Speaker 2: Front tries to defend against the Imperial slaughter and chax.

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Speaker 2: Security droids are sent into the town square, but when

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Speaker 2: Cyril sees Cassian, he suddenly lunges at him and the

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Speaker 2: two get into a brutal brawl. Cyril gets the upper hand,

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Speaker 2: but is shocked when Cassian does not remember who he is.

431
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 2: While frozen, pointing his blaster at Cassian, Cyril gets shot

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Speaker 2: dead by the old leader of the Gorman Front.

433
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: There's Rylans.

434
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 2: It's an incredible moment.

435
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

436
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 2: While trying to exfiltrate Cassian meets up with Willem, who

437
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 2: decides to stay and help the resistance. In the aftermath

438
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 2: of the massacre, the Gorman Front broadcast the final message

439
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 2: about the Imperial siege, claiming there are thousands dead in

440
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 2: the streets. Cyril's mother is in tears watching news reports

441
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 2: coming out of Gorman that framed the Imperial troopers killed

442
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 2: as fallen heroes. Yeah, oh boy, what an episode. Maybe

443
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,640
Speaker 2: the best episode in the series. Who just phenomenal.

444
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: It's phenomenal. I'll give you that. I don't know whish

445
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: i'd pick us the best, but it's tough. It's tough.

446
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 3: I think it's the prison break one still, because a

447
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 3: break one's very good.

448
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to go on a little rant about the

449
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: name of this episode who Are You, because that moment

450
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: between Cassian and Cyril is one that Tony Gilroy ha

451
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 1: said in interviews he had to fight for everyone was like

452
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: just crazy and Diego Luna said it was one of

453
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 1: the hardest lines for me to deliver because Luna likes

454
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: the show and is a fan of the character Cyril

455
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 1: and his acting, and he knows every and it has

456
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,959
Speaker 1: the degree of sympathy that you almost have to have

457
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: for Cyril at this point totally, and so it was

458
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: such a difficult challenge for him to be like to

459
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: really sell who the fuck are you?

460
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: Who shattererril self perception?

461
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 1: Well, and it's it's not even I'll even push against

462
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: a little bit that because I don't think it's entirely that.

463
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: I think what I like about Cyril's journey is that,

464
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 1: And what I like about this episode is that who

465
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: Are You is not just about that line. It is

466
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 1: about every character that we see in this We are

467
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: learning who they all are, and they are learning who

468
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: they all are. Ryelands in the beginning, right, this guy

469
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 1: who had been so gung ho about the Gorman resistance,

470
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 1: who had been when he realizes what's happening that they're

471
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: all going to be massacred. His family and his culture

472
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: are going to be wiped out as a result of

473
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 1: this act of resistance that he's helped to organize. He

474
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: tries to stop it. He says, we have to pull back,

475
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: and he learns he's not a rebel. Right, and there's

476
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: always been hints of that. He's not a rebel. He's

477
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: always you know, the Emperor can't know about this, right,

478
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: We've seen hints of this from Mark Rylance. He learns

479
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: that about himself. And then a little later in the

480
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: episode when it's become because we watch his kids get massacred. Yeah,

481
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: he doesn't see them, but he knows they're dead. He

482
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: hears the gunfire, he understands no one's making it out

483
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: of there. He's not a dumb man. And when he

484
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: comes in and shoots Cyril in the head, he learns

485
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: again who he is. And now he wasn't before, but

486
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: now he is because they've taken everything from him. Right.

487
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, the quote from earlier when he's like arguing with

488
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,479
Speaker 2: people in the streets, he's like, the only path forward

489
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: is silent resistance. Yeah, And by the end of the

490
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: episode he is a little beyond that.

491
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: And I love for him that he gets a chance

492
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: to learn who he is and be wrong and then

493
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: learn again and be right right, which is not a

494
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: chance Cyril is going to get. Cyril does and all

495
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 1: Cyril is. We see, we see a lot of characters

496
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: in this who could only have been themselves in a

497
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: fascist state. Dedra's one of them, right, Dedra could not

498
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: have been the person she is outside of the Empire total.

499
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: I think part of Oz probably is too, could never

500
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: have been him self fully outside Certainly well, I think

501
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: if you.

502
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 3: Put Partigos in the CIA, he is mostly the same guy.

503
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: I think he must have been in the Republic CIA.

504
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. He feels very like Republic transitioned into the Empire. Ye,

505
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 2: like God.

506
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think Krenick obviously is one of our best.

507
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: Krenic is only am under fascism. Cyril is not an

508
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: ideological fascist. Cyril never really embraces fascism as a belief system.

509
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: He never understands the Empire that way. He just understands

510
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: the Empire's law and order he gets if you look

511
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: at it from Cyril's standpoint. He gets brought into this

512
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: not because he wants to cramp down on clamp down

513
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 1: on the evil rebels, and he loves Palpatine and wants

514
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: to kill Freedom. It's because two guys are murdered that

515
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: he considers colleagues, and he thinks it's wrong.

516
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 2: Right. He has a sense of like justice, and he believes.

517
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: He's following that, and he believes that his girlfriend is

518
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: invested in that, and he truly believes. He doesn't want

519
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: to hurt the people of Gorman. He wants to find

520
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: the outside agitators who are driving them to disaster, right,

521
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: And the moment when he learns that that's all a lie,

522
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: he beats the shit out of his girlfriend in a

523
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: very violence. I had an argument with someone online about like,

524
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: is this domestic violence? And I'm like, in a literal sense,

525
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: these people are in a domestic partnership, and he is

526
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: doing violence to her. In a moral sense, if you

527
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: find out that your significant other has been hiding a

528
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: genocide from you, I think it's okay. Like, and you've

529
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: been made complicit in it.

530
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: It's such a fucked upsy. It's such a it's such

531
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: like every everyone is, everyone's fucked and everyone's evil and

532
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 2: everyone's complicit. Yes, and they're all like calling their own

533
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: commitment to like the state and what they view as

534
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: justice and law and order into question, and like for Cyril,

535
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: like he's he has just committed to this idea like

536
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 2: justice and what he sees as law and order, and

537
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: the Empire is the physical manifestation of law and order,

538
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: So therefore the Empire must be good, right, and and

539
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: that's his view, Yeah, and when he really maybe the

540
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: Umpire actually doesn't really.

541
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: Care about law and order, No, they just like it

542
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: gets so.

543
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: Confused, like he he doesn't know how to orient himself

544
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 2: in the world. He doesn't know where a sense of

545
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: morals can be derived from. No, if the state is

546
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: not the represent is not like the lawful good representation

547
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: of like justice.

548
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: And we've seen from Cyril previously that he has physical courage, right,

549
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: he's not afraid of violence. He's not afraid of putting

550
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: himself in physical danger, right, Like he's not a Cassian

551
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: and or level comfortable with it, right because he just

552
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: doesn't have that kind of experience. But he's not he's

553
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: not physically a coward, but he's a moral coward the

554
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: whole series, and that changes and again going back to

555
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,479
Speaker 1: who are you, he understood he learns one thing about himself,

556
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: which is that he is not a genocide committer, right,

557
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: he is not someone who will consciously participate in the

558
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: annihilation of a race. Right when he learns that those

559
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: are the stakes he hits, he chokes Dedra and he

560
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: fucking runs. He doesn't know anything else about himself at

561
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 1: that point. And my interpretation of his reaction to that

562
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: line from Cassian isn't just because I think what I

563
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: love about the scene when he chooses to attack him.

564
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: It's not him making a decision to go back to

565
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 1: the Empire. He's not trying to rest to fight Cassian

566
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: because he wants to get back and good. It's just

567
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: the only thing that makes sense. He's nothing to his

568
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,479
Speaker 1: child's self. Yes, yes, it's it's crazy because I mean

569
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: it's animal. The way that he goes after him is

570
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: like a rabbit dog charging, you know.

571
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 2: Like this whole situation on Gorman calls into question how

572
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: he sees the Empire and therefore how he sees himself

573
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: as he realizes that he's just been upawn in the

574
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: Empire's larger game, and like, in a way, Gorman's the

575
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: first time that Cyril's been part of like a real

576
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: community maybe since he was like a Corpo cop, Like

577
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: there's no like solidarity in community like on Coorissant, there's

578
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: not in the Bureau of Standards. Like Gorman's the first

579
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: time he's actually kind of been a part of a community.

580
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: And like this happens with like with like FBI double

581
00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: agents infiltrating radical organizations. Sometimes it's it's very odd. So

582
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 2: like when he decides to join the crowd, it's just

583
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: like he's aligning with them. But then when he sees

584
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: Cassie and all of this psychological like progress, and the

585
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: question that he's done just gets immediately rolled back because

586
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: then he sees the guy who he thinks like kind

587
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: of like ruined his life, who like who who altered

588
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: the trajectory of what Cyril's life was supposed to be,

589
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: And therefore he just he yeah, he he like turns

590
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: into an animal. He undoes all of all of this

591
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: psychological progress and attacks the guy that he views ruined

592
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: his life, and then in his final moments is in

593
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: part like confronted with the idea that like the guy

594
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 2: that he's been obsessing over for years doesn't even remember

595
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: who he is, and like Cassian's been living rent free

596
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: in his head this whole time, and and like he

597
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: didn't need to, Like Cyril could have moved on. Cyril

598
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: didn't need to do this, And he's been obsessing over

599
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: someone who doesn't even remember him.

600
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 3: So I think the other thing that's really important about

601
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: Cyril's character is like if if you remember him in

602
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 3: like the very beginning of season one, right, he has

603
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: like like like what he like goes home, like he

604
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 3: has like a storm he has like storm tuber like figure.

605
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: In ye clone troop like action figure.

606
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: Yes, and and he has and you know, and he's

607
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: he's like tailoring his own uniform because he has this

608
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: conception of himself as this, like you know, as like

609
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: this like this brave cop as this like sort of

610
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 3: like like this like this this is very specific kind

611
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: of like fascist bureaucrat with a.

612
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: Gun like platonic figure. Yeah.

613
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 3: And the thing is Dentri Miro is that actual person

614
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 3: and this is and this is a tension that that

615
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 3: they that it's kind of worked out or of course

616
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: season one if like Dendrimuro is a character who in

617
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 3: a conventional show is a hero, right, like she is

618
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: she is she is like the cop that's willing to

619
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: work outside of the restrictions of the thing in order

620
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 3: to get the job done. Yeah, and then and you

621
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 3: get to see what that actually is in real life,

622
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: which is she's just fucking torturing people, and you know,

623
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 3: and she's torturing people, and she's going and she and

624
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 3: and when she gets offered a chance to do the

625
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: genocide in order to do investment, she gets that.

626
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 2: And I think part of what's.

627
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: Going on with Cerial is like Cyril's whole thing is

628
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 3: that he has been trying to be this cop and

629
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: then he he has this moment where he's like, oh shit,

630
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: none of that's like real. The actual thing that it

631
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 3: means to be this cop isn't just this isn't this

632
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: like I dress up in my in my client was closed.

633
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 3: And he gets this season one too, where he like

634
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: actually goes into the field and it's just like everyone's

635
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 3: fucking dying around him and he's shell shocked and things

636
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 3: are exploding, and it's like he's getting that here again

637
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: where it's like his' like thing where he's been cultivating

638
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 3: this like intelligence person and he sees it and it

639
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: just like it just sort of it rips away the

640
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: facade that's like that is the facade of how like

641
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: on a kind of macro level, like how we how

642
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 3: film and television and how American media thinks about like

643
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 3: spies and thinks about cops. Sure, and and you see

644
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 3: that the actual brutal reality of it, which is like

645
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: through through the eyes of this person who who who

646
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: like through through through this sort of like media stuff,

647
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: has always wanted to become this person and is like, oh,

648
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 3: you're just doing a genocide. The one part of being

649
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: a cop that I can do is is like choking.

650
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 3: He's like choking my partner.

651
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: So my interpretation of kind of his ending moments is

652
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: that Number One, I don't really feel it is necessarily

653
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: that he undoes all the progress. I think that there's

654
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: this this animal moment when he sees Cassian that just

655
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: overrides ever, because nothing else about his life has makes

656
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: sense anymore. He's completely lost any sense of sanity, and

657
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: Cassian makes sense. Fighting him makes sense, and so he

658
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: does it, and we do see he has a chance

659
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: to shoot him, and he hesitates and he lowers the

660
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: gun just a bit and then he's immediately shot. And

661
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: in that moment, Number one. One of the themes of

662
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: this is that, like everyone has their own rebellion, there's

663
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: an argument you can make that him not doing that

664
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: was his last little act of that. There's an argument

665
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: that like maybe he would have, you know, tried to

666
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: engage in conversation or like you know, monologued or whatever,

667
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: but he didn't get the chance. We just don't know.

668
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: We'll never know. And he's he's kind of contrasted with

669
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: Rylans and that Rylens does get the chance to see

670
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: who he is and have it be not enough and

671
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: then become enough. Cyril gets the chance to see who

672
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: he is, and he does do one. He gets one win,

673
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: and it is a win to realize there's a genocide

674
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: going on and I refuse to be a part of it. Right,

675
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: That's not nothing that he makes that choice. We don't

676
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: know where he would have gone from here. There's a

677
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: version of Cyril that could have been a part of

678
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: the rebel, that could have if he had just left

679
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: Cassie and helped some Gorman's escape on a ship, used

680
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: his imperial credentials, gotten them out of there. It becomes

681
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: something else we'll never know because he doesn't get the

682
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: chance and I see in that last moment not just

683
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: him being like you don't know who I am? Oh,

684
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: that shatters me, but him being asked who are you

685
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: and realizing I have no answer to that question? Yeah yeah,

686
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: and he just doesn't get the chance ever to do that.

687
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: It is a very like Greek tragedy, ugh like mobent tier. Yeah, phenomenal,

688
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: phenomenal screenwriting.

689
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: I will argue it's going to get paid off a

690
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: lot in the next three episodes. But this idea that

691
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: has run through the series that even if you are

692
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: someone working within this machinery of death, within this evil empire,

693
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: you're not unredeemable or unsavable, but you don't have unlimited time. Right, Yeah,

694
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: you can be something else. You have that chance, but

695
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: you don't have infinite days to make that choice.

696
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: This is like the entire message of Star Wars, Like

697
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: this is this is like Luke Invader in the Throne Room.

698
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: This is like what this whole series is about. Like

699
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 2: is this moment?

700
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.

701
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: I do have a few other things I want to

702
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 2: talk about in terms of like the massacre. I really

703
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: like that we see a return of like Imperial military police,

704
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: not just stormtroopers. I think putting a face on the

705
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 2: riot cops is really good for the audience because stormtroopers

706
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 2: are backpacks and t shirts and little fun toys and

707
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: riot cops or riot cops. I'd really like that Willman

708
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: is the being with a French militant many such.

709
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: Cases cases who among us.

710
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: Uh Hartagras in a like a phone call with dedra

711
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: Is talking about how like yeah, like you know, propaganda,

712
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 2: news media has been useful and like spreading like rumors

713
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 2: and like you know, like co intel pro that's for stuff.

714
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: It's been useful. But now the only the quote is

715
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 2: like now the only story is Gorman aggression. Like this

716
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: is all that we can focus on. There's there's no

717
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: no more of this like outside agitator's thing, no more

718
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: of this like long term slow planning. We have to

719
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: we just have to focus on how like savage these

720
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: Gormans are. And meanwhile, like Fox like space, Fox News

721
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: is outside stoking divisions on Gorman, talking about how there's

722
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: rumors of ay quote unquote general strike, how how how

723
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: the empire is negotiating for like a peaceful demonstration. Yea,

724
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: even though even though even though the leaders are obviously

725
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: you know, making making people agitated in this in this

726
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 2: growing insurrection. The chance got me. I have heard way

727
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 2: too many the whole the whole world is watching ants.

728
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: So as soon as they started to go the galaxy,

729
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: I started like, I started like get like sweat egg.

730
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: I started having like no, no, that gave me a

731
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: little breakdown too. It's my least favorite.

732
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: No it's happening again. No, no, no, the galaxy isn't watching. No,

733
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 2: it's not.

734
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: There's that Oh I hate that chant. I hate that

735
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: fucking chance. But it's very real. It's very real, right,

736
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: like this these guys right, yes.

737
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: We get, we get like a real proper riot set up, right,

738
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 2: Like the last riot in and Or was on Ferrex,

739
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: Like that was like a funeral riot.

740
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: Right, it's almost like some of the writers have seen kettles.

741
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: It's crazy, like it's crazy and like this time like

742
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: this is not like a morning ritual like like it

743
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: was on fair Like this is this is this is

744
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: a protest riot. There's there's signs, there's banners, there's fireworks,

745
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: there's smoke, there's space molotovs. There's state affiliated news cruise,

746
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: there's tie fighters flying over had like police copters and

747
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 2: police drums. It's excellent.

748
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: I got a little flashback of being buzzed by a

749
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: police helicopter. It's standing rocks so close that it knocked

750
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: my car off the road.

751
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: That's what happened with the tie Fighter. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

752
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 3: And it's like like like right down to like just

753
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 3: just like the micro dynamics of like how the crowd

754
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 3: is interacting with the riot shields. It's like, oh shit.

755
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: And I got the same not in my stomach, what

756
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: I can tell that she's about to go down. Yeah,

757
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 2: I get this the same watching this like, they really

758
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: nailed It's.

759
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: Great too, is it? With in the just in the

760
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: face acting, But with Cassie and and with Wilman, you

761
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 1: can see that they know they've been in this. They

762
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: know Willman is bat like okay, okay, okay, I know

763
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: what's happening.

764
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 3: I also really like that. Okay, So so okay. So

765
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 3: the challenge that Gilroy has here is we have to

766
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: introduce the concept of kettling to the average Star Wars watcher.

767
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 3: And with the average Star Wars watcher, you can't be like, okay,

768
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 3: the police are going to form a wall. You have

769
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: to physically make walls come in around the thing.

770
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: Like some people have said that the Gorman Mascer is

771
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: very clearly inspired by what's happened in Palestine. These episodes,

772
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure were informed by other massacres in Palestine, but

773
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: these were written prior to the most current outbreak of

774
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: really intense genocidal violence.

775
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 2: In like twenty two.

776
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: Probably again there were other similar massacres that occurred in Palestine.

777
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: But also like this is very clearly patterned off of

778
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland. This is very clearly patterned

779
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: off of I would argue my suspicion the Ombits massacre

780
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: in India by the British government as well, Like I

781
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,479
Speaker 1: think there are pieces of all of that in here.

782
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 3: There's also elements that I heard friend of the show

783
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 3: Emmy Who's Great, talking about, like the Tlatalaco massacre, which

784
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: is like the massacre in nineteen sixty eight in a

785
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 3: square in the middle of Mexico City, which is masacre

786
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 3: where there's like these giant students sixty eight student protests

787
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 3: are happening and they just like put snipers on the

788
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 3: roods and shoot everyone.

789
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

790
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 3: And I think so when I saw this, like I

791
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 3: thought it was going to be a lot more of

792
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 3: just like a straight massacre. Everyone dies and it kind

793
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 3: of turns into a shootout, and I wasn't sure how

794
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 3: that was going to play. Also, I think it is

795
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: also worth remembering that, like also a lot of the

796
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 3: sort of famous historical massacres aren't like some people do

797
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 3: shoot back, yes, because the thing at Sienemen like some

798
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 3: of the some of some of the students like take

799
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: workers from soldiers that they fought and like shoot, well,

800
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 3: yeah this is this is more of the workers. And

801
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 3: by the time they get into the square with the students,

802
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 3: like those people don't have gone. Some of the workers

803
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: like try to fight back and just get massacred. But

804
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 3: it seems to have been really effective. Yeah, in just

805
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: like conveying that like, yeah, this shit happens constantly.

806
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: It happened in my don too write where you have

807
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: you know, both you have Barkut snipers shooting and killing

808
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: protesters and you have protesters firing back from behind the barricades.

809
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I really liked the singing the Gorba national anthem

810
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: as a way to like, yeah, stop the chanting, which

811
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: is like calling towards you know, like we're safe because

812
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 2: the galaxy's watching us, and like the guy who starts

813
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: to the song realizes like that maybe that's not true,

814
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: and instead this song like unites people in like national

815
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: solidarity to prepare them for what's about to happen, instead

816
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: of like gesturing outwards at like this at like you

817
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 2: know those those off planet watching this, and that insures

818
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: our safety, Like no, our safety is from like each other.

819
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 2: And the fact that, yeah, so many of them do

820
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: fire back and like it is it. They do not

821
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: like lose their agency, and that doesn't like make this

822
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 2: less of a massacre.

823
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's another example. This is like the Red Summer,

824
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 3: which is like a whole bunch of like anti anti

825
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: black race riots in the US, and it's it's another one.

826
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: He thinks.

827
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, it's remembered as like a bunch of

828
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 3: white supremacists just murdered a bunch of black people, and

829
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 3: that's true. But also people fought back, like people had guns,

830
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 3: people fought back, people resisted them, and you know a

831
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: lot of people fucking died. And also people in these

832
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 3: situations fly back, and it's good.

833
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: The last thing I want to discuss in this last

834
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 2: section is the based hotel porter who throws.

835
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: That viobe My god. Oh yeah, and again, yeah, we

836
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: are learning he already knows clearly, he knows who he is.

837
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 1: He never has any question about that. But we don't

838
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: know who he is. Cassian doesn't fully until he's like, yeah,

839
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: I wiped you from the system, bro, get out of here, right.

840
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: That's what we're talking about, Yeah, is this is this

841
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: base hotel porter. And also that the way the way

842
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 2: Cassian works as a spy is different from the way

843
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: that other like Luther and operatives do. Like Cassian gets

844
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: to know this guy in the previous arc of episodes

845
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: when he's when he's like going to like survey the

846
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: Gorman Front like a year ago, and he gets into

847
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: a conversation with this hotel porter who was at like

848
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: the Tarkan massacre and was like was there when there

849
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: was like five hunch of people died and like his.

850
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: Dad and his dad died protecting him watch his.

851
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 2: Day like and or like converses with him in his

852
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: in his hotel room to like learn about like the

853
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 2: local people and to like learn about the actual history

854
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: from like a regular guy who experienced it. And this

855
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: isn't something that like Vell and Sint to really do.

856
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 2: This isn't something that Luthen really does like like and

857
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: Or has a connection or like and Or values making

858
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 2: connections with just like the regular people and wherever he's operating,

859
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 2: and this this always like trans outs to help and

860
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 2: Or in the long run, even if he doesn't really

861
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 2: know it in like the immediate because when Andor comes

862
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: back a year later under a different name with a

863
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: different job, the hotel porter recognizes him and is like,

864
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 2: I got you, buddy, ill take care. I know that

865
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: you're up to something and I will protect you, like

866
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 2: we're we are in this together. Like I recognize you,

867
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: and I like value you, and that is what like

868
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 2: helps helps and Or like in this episode. And then

869
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: also the grenades that he throws is you know cool uh.

870
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: And there's there's a beautiful and Or's last line to

871
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: this kid is I hope things work out for you.

872
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: And the last thing we see that kid do is

873
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: detonate a bomb to kill himself and a bunch of

874
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: other people.

875
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: Rebellions are built on hope.

876
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,959
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and he tells him rebellions are built on hope,

877
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: which is where we get that line from Rogue One.

878
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: I like that, Sam the guy with two ms who

879
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: killed Sinta last Dark is still in the fight and

880
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: is killing imperials. He is, yes, he is killing them

881
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: in the name of Cinta. He is. He is showing up.

882
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 1: He is real and he he he again. He learns

883
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: who he is in this episode, right, like he's not

884
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: just a fuck up. He rams a truck into that

885
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: K two unit and save saves Cassio, save saves the

886
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: whole day end. Yes, he learns too, Yeah, he learns who.

887
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: I feel like that everything good that happens to Cassiod,

888
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 2: all the people who do it are like in part

889
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: like responsible for the destruction of the Death Star, which

890
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: shows how like the butterfly effect works in a really

891
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 2: fun way. Yeah, and like like a good Luther and operative,

892
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: Cassidan takes K two to get reprogrammed. But like this,

893
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 2: this episode like ends on this on this Gorman cry

894
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: for help, this like final broadcast done by Wilman's French

895
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 2: GF And I I was legitimately tearing up at this.

896
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: It got to me, and Ors starts tearing up, but

897
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 2: like it's it, It really got to me. And then

898
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: like we zoom out of Gorman and you can see

899
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: like how unnatural the imperial like tower is above like

900
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: the regular Palomo skyline with let's like you know, historical

901
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: architecture that you have this like just just like hideous,

902
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 2: like imperial like citadel, like casting a dark shadow over

903
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: the town. And then we we cut to Cyril's mom

904
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: crying watching Fox News where they're talking about how outside

905
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: rebel assistance helped the Gorman front and they question, what's

906
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: the price will pay for our own safety? And that's

907
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: how the episode ends. M h, what aisode?

908
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: What asode?

909
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: All Right, we'll go on a break and then come

910
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: back to briefly discuss this last episode, which is also

911
00:44:53,600 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: quite good. Okay, we're back. Episode nine, Welcome to the Rebellion.

912
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: Clone War's heads are feasting so much Senate very fun

913
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: so on Coussant. Fake news spreads about what has happened

914
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 2: on Gorman, and the Gorman senator is arrested with no

915
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: warrant and no charges. Man Mathma plans to make a

916
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: final speech in the Senate and then leave Coroissant with

917
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 2: bail Organa to lead the rebel alliance on Yavin, but

918
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: Senator Organa doesn't want to leave yet. He wants to

919
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 2: stay and buy time for Yavin to get fully up

920
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 2: and running, but he advises Man to go through with

921
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: the speech and offers an extraction team to help her

922
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 2: get off Corussant. While writing her speech, Man Mathma is

923
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: the Senate aid Erskin finds an ISB listening device in

924
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 2: her office. She goes outside to practice the speech, while

925
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: Erskin continues to search for more bugs. Waiting outside for

926
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 2: mon Is Luthan, who tells her that Erskin's been secretly

927
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: working for him for two years and that Bail's extraction

928
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: team is somehow corrupted. Man grows upset at Luthan's deceptions

929
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: and secrets and is unsure of who to trust, but

930
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 2: Luthan says that he is sending a highly trusted operative

931
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 2: as an alternative extraction plan. Cassian, still undercover as a

932
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: conflict journalist, agrees to escort Manmathma as his last job

933
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: for the rebellion. Other senators mourned the Imperial martyrs slain

934
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: by the Savage Gormans before Bail. Organa invokes a Senate

935
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: article to hand the Florida mon Mathma, where she gives

936
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: her speech, calling what's happened on Gorman a genocide and

937
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: labels Emperor Palpatine, a monster that, empowered by the Senate,

938
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: has hijacked the truth and reality. The ICB orders to

939
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: shut down the Senate feed and detain Senator Mathma, but

940
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: as Mon exits the Senate chamber, Cassian is waiting outside

941
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: as Luthen suspected one of Bail's extraction team members is

942
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 2: an ISB double agent, and kills another one of Baile's operatives.

943
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: Once they're found out. The undercover ICB agent tries to

944
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,479
Speaker 2: arrest Mon, but is killed by Erskine and Cassian. Mon

945
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 2: helps navigate through the Senate building as it's put into lockdown,

946
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 2: eventually reaching her vehicle outside, where Cassian kills her driver, Chorus,

947
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 2: who's also an i SB plant.

948
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 1: Well was maybe we'll talk about that. Yeah.

949
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 2: Cassian takes Wilman to Yavin for medical attention while Gold

950
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: Squadron finishes Mon's escort to the rebel base back on Base,

951
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: Bix breaks up with Cassian via snapchat message and leaves

952
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: Yavin to fight for the rebellion elsewhere and to keep

953
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: Cassian on Yavin. Yeah, and later that day, rebel engineers

954
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: reprogrammed the salvaged k extroid. Okay, this episode has a

955
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: lot of politics, A lot of politicking, Yeah, a lot

956
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: of capital senate stuff.

957
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: I want to read a little bit from mon mathmaus

958
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: speech here. Sure, what I think is kind of the

959
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: the nut of it here, I believe we are in

960
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: a crisis. The distance between what is said and what

961
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: is known to be true has become an abyss. Of

962
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: all the things at risk, the loss of an objective

963
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: reality is perhaps the most dangerous. The death of truth

964
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: is the ultimate victory of evil. When truth leaves us,

965
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 1: when we let it slip away, when it is ripped

966
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: from our hands, we become vulnerable to the appetite of

967
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: whatever monster screams the loudest.

968
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 2: Uh boy, it's a little orange mad bad. But hey,

969
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 2: the orange man is bad.

970
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: It's not just orange. It's making a broader, more historical point.

971
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: That totally. Yes.

972
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: The reason all of this works by destroying any kind

973
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: of shared concept of reality, you can get people to

974
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: If you can get people to believe absurdities, you can

975
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: get them to commit atrocities. Right.

976
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: I mean, this is what like the nazis understood as well.

977
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: Yes, And I love that speech. I think it's really

978
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 1: one of one of my favorite bits of this is

979
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: that it continues to show the degree to which, as

980
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: in Nimic's manifesto, tiny spontaneous individual acts of rebellion are

981
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 1: constantly occurring and are a key part of the movement

982
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: even when they're not organized. Mathma only gets through her

983
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: speech and maybe only lives because a team of door

984
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 1: repair guys who do not appear to be anyone's secret

985
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: agents just fuck up purposefully at their job, like we

986
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: can't get in.

987
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, man, we.

988
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: Can't get into the fucking thing, Like you're gonna.

989
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: Have to wait.

990
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: We're still working on this, and it's kind of inferred that,

991
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 1: like it's it's weaponized incompetence, right, and I really appreciate

992
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 1: that bit. We have a showdown with her and her

993
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: driver because she becomes aware before her speech that her driver,

994
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: who she's been taking in as a confidant in the

995
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: last couple episodes.

996
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 2: Well, no, no, no, no, like her driver. She's known

997
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: her driver, Chlorus, has been like isb for like two seasons.

998
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: This is a different driver, I think than first this.

999
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: Is the same driver, because she's been talking.

1000
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: She's been talking to Chlorus a couple of times. She

1001
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: makes a comment about that this one hurts.

1002
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: She's been talking to like Erskin, like, oh shit, yeah,

1003
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: she's she she's been getting closer to like her senate Aid.

1004
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 2: Corus has always been like a dipshit who they've kept

1005
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,439
Speaker 2: around because he's like kind of bad at his job.

1006
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 2: He is bad at being an ISB, like like paid informant,

1007
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: so they like keep him around even though they know

1008
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 2: he's reporting to ISB.

1009
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: There's a little bit of an insinuation with him looking

1010
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 1: at his gun and listening to her that maybe he's

1011
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: rethinking things. But again, we never get the chance to

1012
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: see that because Cassian just shin.

1013
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: I think he's like thinking about if he's going to

1014
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: have like a rest or shoot.

1015
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was my breed on it.

1016
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: I think he's making up his mind about what he's

1017
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 1: gonna do. And I don't think we actually see that,

1018
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: but I mean I think it's open to interpretation.

1019
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, because Cassian domes his little bettles.

1020
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: And does not take chances like that, he does not

1021
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: take chances.

1022
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: And also Cassian employs great tactics in asking man what

1023
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 2: his name is first, to engage him in conversation, to

1024
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: distract him enough to like totally surprise him. Yeah, very good.

1025
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: I also I like the one of the kind of

1026
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: it's not stated directly, but like Lana, the Imperial deep

1027
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,479
Speaker 1: coverage within the ISB is the guy who put these

1028
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: people there, particularly the incompetent ISB agent who Cassie and

1029
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: first shoots the lady.

1030
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 2: The person who's infiltrated Man's team a Baile's team. Yeah,

1031
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 2: Like the reason why Luthan knows that there's something wrong

1032
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: with Baile's team is because the agent that has that

1033
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 2: has infiltrated like Baile's network is one of Lonnie's agents.

1034
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 2: So Lonnie was able to get word to Luthen that

1035
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: there could be a problem with with Baile's extraction team

1036
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 2: and that's what that's what helps helps get mont Yavin safely.

1037
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's just kind of more confirmation of the

1038
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: value of Lonnie of yeah, having him there and how

1039
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: he how much he was worth the sacrifice of Ando

1040
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 1: Krieger and his rebels and season one.

1041
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: No Lonnie, Lonnie is MVP uh. Like a lot of

1042
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: this episode is kind of showing how much Luthen's Accelerationist

1043
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 2: project has kind of succeeded, like like how much he's

1044
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 2: he's in somewhat set up Gorman, or at least like

1045
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 2: fed the fire of Gorman slightly to create this political

1046
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 2: crisis to further his like accelerationist goal of creating this

1047
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: like big conflict, and like we see some of that

1048
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: start to work out, even though Luthen himself is like

1049
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: having a much harder time and the kind of the

1050
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 2: house of cards he's built is starting to crumble and

1051
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 2: he's probably not gonna be able to work with many

1052
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: people for for very much longer.

1053
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's like, that's the other thing I want

1054
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 3: to mention about this episode about the way Luthen operates

1055
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 3: is that because the way Luthen operates is by fucking

1056
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 3: not telling anyone anything and by manipulating people and by

1057
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 3: spying on them, and by like having this whole network

1058
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 3: of double agents and like people who doesn't like the

1059
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 3: problem with operating like that, And this is the problem

1060
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 3: that he's running into here is like mon Mathma does

1061
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 3: not fucking trust him because the thing that she learned

1062
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 3: when Luthen comes to.

1063
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 2: Tell her, like, hey, the you can't go with Bail's team.

1064
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, bails team is.

1065
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 2: Going to kill you.

1066
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 3: She's like, you fucking this you've had my own aids

1067
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 3: spying on me for two What the fuck? Yeah, Like

1068
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 3: it's like like this this is like a persistent problem

1069
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 3: with the like and you start to see this, have

1070
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 3: have we surround have we seen Vell like not working

1071
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 3: with him anymore? I think we have in these episodes.

1072
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 1: Uh Vell does not seem to be working with him anymore.

1073
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: She's more or less completely gone in on the actual

1074
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: like military part of the alliance vels on.

1075
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 3: Yeah then yeah, well and this and this is that

1076
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 3: this is the thing about this is like you get

1077
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 3: to watch every one walking away from Yah. You get

1078
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 3: to watch everyone who Luthen had worked. Everyone walks away

1079
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 3: with him because they're like this guy keeps being an asshole,

1080
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 3: and he keeps hiding things with people, and he keeps

1081
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 3: manipulating everyone, and it's like it's like he's doing and

1082
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 3: this is this is like also this is a kind

1083
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 3: of person also that you run into where it's like

1084
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 3: they're doing really important work and also interpersonally they're impossible

1085
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 3: to fucking work with and like like and you can

1086
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 3: you can watch it even with this having like real

1087
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 3: political gratifications. Yeah, where it's just like no, this guy

1088
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 3: has been just like jerking our chain around and like

1089
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 3: lying to us and manipulating us for so long that

1090
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 3: all of the relationships that he needs are breaking down

1091
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 3: and it's no longer a position where because he's the

1092
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 3: guy with the money in the arms and the coordination,

1093
00:53:58,400 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 3: everyone has to work with him. They now have a

1094
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 3: choice to like go do literally anything else. And everyone

1095
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 3: keeps walking away, and it like almost gets mon Mathma

1096
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 3: killed because she's so pissed at him that he's been

1097
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 3: like spy having her.

1098
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 2: Spye on, but it it also saves her, Like it's

1099
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a double It does seem distrust with Mon,

1100
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:20,839
Speaker 2: but it also is what.

1101
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 1: God, because it is it is him who gets Mom out.

1102
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's like it's just this like really messy.

1103
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 2: That's what makes them a good character is that he

1104
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 2: is both like he understands who he is. He's like

1105
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 2: fucked up and morally compromised and is obviously hashtag problematic,

1106
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 2: but it's also completely necessary within the plot that they've created, Yeah,

1107
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,359
Speaker 2: and like somewhat defensible, and like he knows that he's

1108
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 2: like fucked like he he says, like there's no Yavin

1109
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 2: for me, I'm I'm not going to gav and I'm

1110
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 2: never going to see the sunrise. Like that's not what

1111
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 2: my role is. I have to be the asshole here.

1112
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 2: And yeah it sucks. And we start to see like

1113
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 2: his fake Luthen like gallery persona starting to collapse here too,

1114
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 2: Like yeah, this whole episode, he's not in his like wag,

1115
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 2: He's not in his like fancy clothes. He is like

1116
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: insurgent Luthen like this this this rule that he's he's

1117
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: cultivated these past few years is no longer needed and

1118
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: it does have negative consequences. Yeah, man is not trusting

1119
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 2: him in this moment where she kind of really has to,

1120
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 2: Like mon thinks that Luthan might just be trying to

1121
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 2: like protect himself, that Luthen might not actually care about

1122
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 2: Mont's own safety. Cassie and is tired of always being

1123
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 2: a tool for someone else and is dealing with trauma

1124
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: and burnout and Erskine's just caught in the middle of

1125
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 2: this hole, this this whole ship storm and yeah, this

1126
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 2: is this is what makes it compelling.

1127
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's just good character writing.

1128
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 2: We've all been bent by secrecy, is what he says.

1129
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and by God he has. And there's there's

1130
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: a couple of really good moments in this that I

1131
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: don't want to skip over. There's the next year in

1132
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,280
Speaker 1: Next Year in Yavin moment between Mon Mathma and Bail Arghana,

1133
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 1: which I saw someone on Twitter, uh decree to be

1134
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: Zionist propaganda. I'm sorry, like that that is definitely based

1135
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: on next Year in Jerusalem, a term that has been

1136
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 1: in use for like way more than half of a millennia.

1137
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 1: That is, has nothing to do with Zionism. You're just

1138
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: being racist, I'm sorry. And it's a nice like it's

1139
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: a I think, a nice nod to the travails of

1140
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: like what we are seeing is like a diaspora, right,

1141
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: as people have to flee their homes to participate in

1142
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: the rebellion.

1143
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 2: Right.

1144
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: I think it's an appropriate kind of callback to real

1145
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: world history there and the line where I think that

1146
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: moment between her and Bail works really effectively and the

1147
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 1: thing that he's doing works really effectively.

1148
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 2: This interaction between her and Bail also shows like the

1149
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 2: difference between how Bail operates Luther and operates because like

1150
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 2: Mon asks Bail if he trust his people, like like

1151
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 2: if he trusts his extraction team, and he says like

1152
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: of course, yeah, but he but but he has to

1153
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 2: admit that he doesn't actually know them personally for quote

1154
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 2: unquote safety, and like this is this is where it

1155
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 2: shows like the difference someone like Bail, who's maybe less

1156
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 2: manipulative than Luthen, maybe a little bit less morally compromised

1157
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 2: than Luthen, but also in in moments like this, like

1158
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 2: the in specific moments like this comes up a little

1159
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 2: bit short compared to Luthen's uh, like you know, semi

1160
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 2: semi like destructive and like bridge burning tactics, which would

1161
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 2: which she which he openly describes as bridge burning. I

1162
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 2: think I think this episode like, are are there any

1163
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 2: bridges you haven't burned yet? Well, we're gonna deal with

1164
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 2: that soon.

1165
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we will be dealing with that soon. I would

1166
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: like to call out mon Mathma's face acting and both

1167
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: the scenes were Cassie and just immediately domes some motherfuckers,

1168
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: Jack my god.

1169
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 2: Incredible stuff.

1170
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 1: She's she's known intellectually and it's even hit her because

1171
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: she had a friend of hers killed right a former lover.

1172
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 1: She didn't order it, but it was done, and she

1173
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 1: knew it was happening, so she's not she had to

1174
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: cope with it totally nai, but the rebellions, I would argue,

1175
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 1: not fully real to her until she sees a man

1176
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: shot through the brains.

1177
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 2: It's funny because she, like like minutes earlier, has a

1178
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 2: line where she's like, like, hiding in this seen it

1179
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 2: this whole time, will have been the hardest thing we've

1180
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 2: ever done, and then it's immediately faced with the lethal

1181
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 2: consequences for her actions. Yeah, it's like I don't know,

1182
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1183
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: It's much worse.

1184
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 3: Well, and it's also like its interesting too because it's

1185
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 3: like the second person she's seen shot in this episode, right,

1186
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 3: because like there's also like the first I s P

1187
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 3: agent who they have shot. But it's like she doesn't

1188
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 3: know the person she knows, right, No, it's just like

1189
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 3: some cop and the known Chlorus for years.

1190
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1191
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's just watched her just like ye nope

1192
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 3: and and the way and just yeah no dead media. Yeah,

1193
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 3: and she's like, oh shit, would have I gotten myself

1194
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 3: into Lutan's strongest soldiers killed two undercover is s B

1195
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 3: this episode?

1196
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: Give them a hand, folks, Yeah, No, this is this

1197
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: is a really a really a really sleek as I

1198
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: do like that that like Bail's like Infiltrator, has like

1199
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 2: a real isb look to her face. As soon as

1200
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 2: I saw that actress, I'm like, that one has got

1201
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 2: to be the undercover.

1202
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 3: Is b right?

1203
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she just got that.

1204
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: Fabulous That ib jaw very good.

1205
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 1: There's one thing I'd like to bring up at the

1206
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: end of these episodes that's kind of a callback to

1207
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: the very first episode of the show. Is the first

1208
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: time we see our boy cyreal, he's just convinced that

1209
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: something is and people I've seen people point out Zerios

1210
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: actually really good at his job. He points this out that,

1211
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: like I solved a murder in two days, right, he

1212
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: figured out who who had killed these officers very quickly.

1213
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: And one of my favorite little undercutting of serial points

1214
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: is that his boss solves it even faster, like in

1215
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: that first conversation, because his boss is an older guy,

1216
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 1: he's a corporate cop. He clearly has been doing whatever

1217
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 1: he's been doing since probably before the Clone Wars, right,

1218
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: He's been nearer the end of his career than the beginning.

1219
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: And he doesn't like the empire, right, He's not even

1220
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: that much of a law and order guy. He's more

1221
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: of a get through the day and do my fucking

1222
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,479
Speaker 1: job guy. When Cyril brings up Cassie and killing these cops,

1223
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, man, they're at a brothel. I know

1224
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,439
Speaker 1: their salaries. They can't afford that. They were shaking people down.

1225
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 1: They shake the wrong guy down and they got killed.

1226
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 1: Best to ignore it. You don't want the empire over here.

1227
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: And every aspect of Cyril's life would have been better

1228
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: if he'd listened to this guy who I'm sure spins

1229
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: the rest of the empire, sitting on like barely notices

1230
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: the end of things. You know, he's probably retired by then.

1231
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 1: Just a shout out to the smartest, the smartest guy

1232
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: in security services we meet over the course of these

1233
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: entire series, that old dude at the desk who's like,

1234
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: not worth it, not getting into it. Yeah, I wouldn't

1235
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: ask anybody anything.

1236
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 2: Ah, Poor poor Cyril, what a little weasel Leah.

1237
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: And n he fucked up, he fucked up bad.

1238
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 2: I love I always love being in the Senate. She

1239
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 2: does call the Gordon massacre genocide, performs the whole speech

1240
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: very very solid, acting as usual. Genevievel Riley fantastic work

1241
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 2: as Asma on this entire season.

1242
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,439
Speaker 1: Everyone's great. God damn we shulll just talk a little

1243
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: bit about Dedri's breakdown after the Gorman.

1244
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: Master Yeah in episode eighth, Yeah.

1245
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which also does fit into the whole who

1246
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: are you thing where we see that she's not like

1247
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: a complete sociopath, right, She's not absolutely devoid of horror

1248
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: over what she's doing. She's just willing to accept the

1249
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: horror in order to get what she wants out of life,

1250
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: which I think is just like a much more realistic

1251
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: portrayal of human evil than we tend to get.

1252
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. She finds ways to cope and justify. Yeah, And

1253
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 2: like you know, Lonnie is having to find ways to

1254
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 2: cope and justify, but he's doing that through being a

1255
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 2: double agent and feeding and feeding Luthen like very very

1256
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 2: important intel as we see in this episode and the

1257
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 2: next let's see. Yeah, I think this is this is

1258
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 2: most of what I what I had on on on thisisode.

1259
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean Bix Bix bricks up with Cassian

1260
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 2: to force Cassie to stay in the in the Alliance,

1261
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 2: even though he's probably not gonna be working with Luthan again.

1262
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: I'll have more to say about BIS next week.

1263
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, yeah, I mean I have a lot

1264
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: to say about this, but I think we'll wait until

1265
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 1: last episode to fully discuss BIX. I think that's probably best.

1266
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. But but this, this batch specifically, I think

1267
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 2: is some is some real solid, real solid sows. Wow

1268
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 2: Star Wars.

1269
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: The stars have never been more Wars. Garrison, the Stars

1270
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: have never been more wars. Can all agree on that.

1271
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 3: It could happen?

1272
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 2: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

1273
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 2: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia

1274
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 2: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1275
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1276
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 3: Can now find sources for it could Happen here listed

1277
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 3: directly in episode descriptions.

1278
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.