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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's susy. Since we originally published this episode

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Speaker 1: in May of twenty twenty four, there have been significant

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Speaker 1: developments for Lyle and Eric Menendez, brothers, who were convicted

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Speaker 1: of murdering their parents in the early nineteen nineties. The

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Speaker 1: brothers do not deny the killings, but they say they

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Speaker 1: endured years of sexual and emotional abuse from their father,

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Speaker 1: and a recent documentary and a docudrama on Netflix have

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Speaker 1: reignited interest in their case. A number of their family

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Speaker 1: members have come forward with impassion pleas for their release,

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Speaker 1: saying that they believe them about the abuse, and on

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Speaker 1: October twenty fourth, in a studying development, the Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: District Attorney said that he would request that the Menendez

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Speaker 1: brothers be resentenced.

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Speaker 2: I believe that they have paid their debt to society,

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Speaker 2: and the system provides a vehicle for their case to

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Speaker 2: be reviewed by a parole bar and the role concurs

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Speaker 2: with my assessment, and it will be their decision. There

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Speaker 2: will be released accordantly.

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Speaker 1: If you're looking for contacts. This episode explains how we

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Speaker 1: arrived at this extraordinary moment, and how kids on social

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Speaker 1: media played an important role, and how new evidence may

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Speaker 1: impact whether they are ultimately released, and as a warning,

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Speaker 1: we discuss the sexual and emotional abuse of children in detail.

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Speaker 3: Are we with the stands here? I mean maybe like

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Speaker 3: the romantic stands? Yeah, But now you tell this in

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Speaker 3: the light of twenty twenty four makes it sound like

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Speaker 3: the TikTokers are actually onto something.

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Speaker 1: I'm Susie Benacerm and I'm Jessica Bennett, and this is

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Speaker 1: in retrospect, where each week we revisit a cultural moment

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Speaker 1: from the past that shaped.

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Speaker 3: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about Lyle and Eric Menendez, two Beverly

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Speaker 1: Hills brothers convicted of killing their parents in a case

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Speaker 1: that captivated the nation in the early nineteen nineties. But

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Speaker 1: we're also talking about how in recent years they have

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Speaker 1: become unlikely social media stars despite being in prison for

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Speaker 1: thirty four years.

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Speaker 3: Susie, I remember so vividly this era of a number

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Speaker 3: of years, when I think I was in high school,

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Speaker 3: the Menanda's brother's case just being constantly, constantly on the

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Speaker 3: air and on television. But it was with some surprise

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Speaker 3: only recently I noticed it was trending on TikTok. Is

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Speaker 3: that why you wanted to talk about.

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Speaker 1: This, Yes, So I also have this memory of this

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Speaker 1: being in the zeitgeist. Like I vaguely knew about this case.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't someone who read all the details or watched

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Speaker 1: the trial as it was happening. But the story about

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Speaker 1: them was always the same story, which was they were

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Speaker 1: these two spoiled rich kids from Beverly Hills who had

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Speaker 1: everything they wanted. They killed their parents because they wanted

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Speaker 1: their inheritance and they wanted the parents out of the way.

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Speaker 1: And after they killed them, they went on this wild

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Speaker 1: spending spree. So I hadn't really thought about the Menendez

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Speaker 1: brothers in a long time. I mean, that's a pretty

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Speaker 1: salacious story, and I remember being kind of fascinated by

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Speaker 1: the concept of killing your parents for money that you

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Speaker 1: already had access to, right right, And I think I

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Speaker 1: saw one of the TV movies at the time, although

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Speaker 1: I don't remember it that well. But a few years

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Speaker 1: ago I did start noticing this on TikTok that occasionally

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Speaker 1: in my feed i'd see a video about these brothers.

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Speaker 3: Why did the Menandez brothers kill their own parents? This

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Speaker 3: is part three of this chilling case.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear the latest news about the Menandez brothers.

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Speaker 3: Four facts about the Menendez brothers.

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Speaker 1: Menanda's brothers and Menendez brothers Mede.

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Speaker 3: These two brothers should be out of prison by now.

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Speaker 1: I sort of just took a mental note. I was like,

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Speaker 1: why is there renewed interest in this? But I sort

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Speaker 1: of chalked it up to how obsessed everyone is with

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Speaker 1: true crime now. But then a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 1: Ezra Marcus wrote a piece for the New York Times.

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Speaker 1: Did you read this piece? Yes? It was called the

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Speaker 1: New Menendez Defenders, and it was about how, seemingly out

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Speaker 1: of nowhere, suddenly hundreds of accounts on TikTok and Instagram

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Speaker 1: were dedicated to the Menendez brothers and how they didn't

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Speaker 1: receive a fair trial and how the abuse they suffered

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Speaker 1: during their childhoods led to this crime.

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Speaker 4: This became a trial by media, completely sensationalized, many believing

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Speaker 4: that these two preppy, good looking, rich young men had

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Speaker 4: killed their parents for money, and in reality, their motive

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Speaker 4: for murder was far more heartbreaking and dare I say understandable.

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Speaker 1: I honestly had such a vague memory that there had

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Speaker 1: been some abuse allegations. I'm not sure I had ever

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Speaker 1: really paid attention to that, so I thought that was

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Speaker 1: really interesting. And even the way Ezrah describes these accounts

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Speaker 1: as fascinating, right, Like a lot of them are just

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Speaker 1: endless clips from the original trials or news were parts

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Speaker 1: of the time. But some of them are literal fan

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Speaker 1: accounts that are dedicated to how hot the brothers are

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Speaker 1: or were.

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Speaker 3: I guess is wild. It is the wildest. How old

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Speaker 3: were the Menanda's brothers at the time this took place.

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Speaker 1: They were twenty one and eighteen, and they were very attractive,

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Speaker 1: kind of like Beverly Hills preppies at the time. Right,

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Speaker 1: A lot was made of their looks. One of the

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Speaker 1: reporters who covered them at the time talked about how

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Speaker 1: they received thousands of letters a week at the Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles County jail when they were on trial. Some of

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Speaker 1: them contain nude photos and ropes would line up to

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Speaker 1: see the trial. Yes, but these very specific stand culture accounts.

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Speaker 1: They have a certain kind of like dreamy, soft focus vibe,

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Speaker 1: and there's like music and often with the Menanda's brothers,

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Speaker 1: it's stills of them stitched together, often from the trials,

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Speaker 1: very weird things. It is amazing like my love Eric

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Speaker 1: Menendez or Lyle Menendez, and one of them had a

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Speaker 1: video that was captured Happy Birthday King for Eric Menende's birthday,

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Speaker 1: and then just like had pictures from his childhood, which

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Speaker 1: I also found creepy, Like I was like, what are

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Speaker 1: you posting pictures of him when he was like six

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Speaker 1: or seven, especially because what we know now of his

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Speaker 1: childhood is not great. The other thing that the New

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Speaker 1: York Times piece identified was that they're mostly gen z right,

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Speaker 1: and that it's a very international crowd.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's an international crowd, but.

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Speaker 1: Almost entirely teenagers who have looked at the details of

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Speaker 1: this case and have wondered how the stories of abuse

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Speaker 1: and we'll get into them were not more front and

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Speaker 1: center in the coverage. And it is a good question,

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Speaker 1: Like I have now gone back and fallen into this

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole, and there's a lot of things to think

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Speaker 1: about with this case.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So just to take as a step back for

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Speaker 3: a minute. I know that these things crop up on

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Speaker 3: TikTok and people become obsessed with new subjects from the past,

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Speaker 3: and you don't ever really know why. In this moment,

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Speaker 3: we are talking again about the menandas brothers. So do

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Speaker 3: you know anything about what caused this sudden renewed interest.

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Speaker 1: Well, as you say, it's very hard to pinpoint exactly

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Speaker 1: why something sort of returns. So the Zeidis, there's a

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Speaker 1: couple theories about why. Okay, this has become kind of

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Speaker 1: a popular case again, if that's the right way of

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Speaker 1: framing it. A Andy did a documentary about them in

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, and that didn't get posted on Hulu until

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. So there's some sense that when that was

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Speaker 1: posted in twenty nineteen, Blue, where you know a lot

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Speaker 1: of gen z gets their content, they watched this documentary

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Speaker 1: and it renewed their interests. That's sort of where it began.

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Speaker 1: And one of the social media fans in the New

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Speaker 1: York Times piece did talk about watching that A and

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Speaker 1: E documentary, So that might have reintroduced this case to

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Speaker 1: a new generation of true crime. Yeah, but I think

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Speaker 1: the thing that likely had the bigger impact is that

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic, Court TV, which aired this trial, Gabble

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Speaker 1: to Gabble, as they called it. This was one of

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Speaker 1: the first trials where that happened, posted the entire trial

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Speaker 1: to YouTube.

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Speaker 2: And we have both jury panels back in the courtroom

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Speaker 2: and everyone else is present, the defense may call its

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Speaker 2: next witness.

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Speaker 1: Thanks he Joseph blowman Inus And so you know, at

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Speaker 1: a time, oh, when we're all at home in the pandemic. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at a time when everyone's at home and desperate for

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Speaker 1: like interesting content, I think a lot of kids just

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Speaker 1: would have this on all day. And so a lot

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Speaker 1: of TikTok and Instagram accounts start posting videos after that,

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Speaker 1: and Google searches for the Menanda's brother Spike. In May

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, right after Court TV started putting

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Speaker 1: the videos on YouTube of the trial. So I suspect

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Speaker 1: that had a lot to do with it. And another

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Speaker 1: one of the social media supporters from the New York

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Speaker 1: Times piece, a twenty something student from London named Jordan Wynn,

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Speaker 1: talked about how he watched the entire trial during the

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Speaker 1: pandemic and that inspired him to start his Instagram account

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Speaker 1: at Menendez supporter got it. But I went through some

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Speaker 1: of these accounts last week because it had been a

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Speaker 1: while since I looked at them, and I was curious. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, rip my algorithm. Obviously I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to be served Menendez brother's content from now on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, forever, for the rest of your life. Sorry.

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Speaker 1: I found that there are still hundreds of accounts and

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Speaker 1: they have millions and millions of views, and it is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: There's one called Menendez Supporter three RS and it has

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Speaker 1: two hundred and sixty five thousand followers and almost thirteen

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Speaker 1: million likes on its videos. One of its pinned videos

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Speaker 1: has almost sixteen million views and the other one has

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Speaker 1: seven million. So it just gives you a sense of

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Speaker 1: how popular this content is. And the most popular accounts

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Speaker 1: tend to be mostly news clips or news reports from

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Speaker 1: the time, clips from the TV movies. There was a

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Speaker 1: Law and Order special. They did a limited series that

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Speaker 1: was just the Menendez brothers a few years ago. Clips

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Speaker 1: from that seemed to do pretty well. Another element of

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Speaker 1: what's happened here in terms of renewed interest is there's

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Speaker 1: a change dot org petition. It was started in March

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Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen and it has about three hundred thousand signatures.

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Speaker 1: But weirdly, it's a petition to Leslie Abramson, who, if

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Speaker 1: you don't know, was Eric's lawyer during his initial trials,

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Speaker 1: and she's kind of a big character herself. She was

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Speaker 1: a petition to do what well to you know, I

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Speaker 1: guess file another appeal. But she's not their appellet attorney.

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Speaker 1: She's not involved in their case anymore at all.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So it's a petition to their former lawyer to

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Speaker 3: file a new appeal on their case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which gives you a sense of how plugged in

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Speaker 1: these kids are to the reality of what's happened to

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Speaker 1: the wrong person. Okay, God, but I found this also fascinating.

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Speaker 1: There was an LA Times piece recently and they reached

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Speaker 1: out to Leslie Abramson just to get her take on

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Speaker 1: what's happening. Oh, okay, and she said she doesn't discuss

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Speaker 1: the case anymore. And then there's this quote from her,

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Speaker 1: I am still harassed by TV producers, high school kids

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Speaker 1: and nutcases who promise to get my clients out of prison.

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Speaker 1: Oh she said it an email. I have nothing else

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Speaker 1: to say to you. But I was like high school kids, Like,

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Speaker 1: imagine how many of these TikTokers must be reaching out

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Speaker 1: to Leslie Abramson.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Leslie Abramson I think is in her

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Speaker 1: eighties now, Like she's probably like, who are these kids?

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Speaker 5: Wow?

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Speaker 3: She's like, get going literally.

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Speaker 1: Get all of my law and she probably has no

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Speaker 1: way of understanding what the fuck they're talking about. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't know what stan accounts are, So yes, it's just

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Speaker 1: I do think it's kind of a hilarious twist that

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Speaker 1: she's sort of been dragged into this and is suddenly

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Speaker 1: being contacted by children all around the world. But it's

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Speaker 1: not just kids. Rosie O'Donnell the actress and former talk

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Speaker 1: show host. She is a big defender of the Menanda's brothers.

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Speaker 1: She recently interviewed Lyle from prison for her podcast It's

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Speaker 1: a Very Special Episode.

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Speaker 6: I talked for the full hour to Lyele Menendez, who

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Speaker 6: has been in prison for thirty four years for the

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Speaker 6: killing of both of his parents after a lifetime of

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Speaker 6: child abuse and incest.

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Speaker 1: And she did an interview with Court TV, and she

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Speaker 1: said that she felt like the brothers didn't deserve to

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Speaker 1: still be in jail, and that she grew up in

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Speaker 1: a family with an abuse dynamic, and that she believed

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Speaker 1: that they had been abused and really believed that their

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Speaker 1: lives were in danger.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so for people who don't remember, remind us what

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Speaker 3: was the situation with the brothers and their trials and

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Speaker 3: how long have they been in prison.

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Speaker 1: They've been in prison for thirty four years. And there

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Speaker 1: are just a lot of wild twists and turns to

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Speaker 1: the story. I actually do think it's fascinating. I understand

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Speaker 1: why it captured the imagination of the country then and

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Speaker 1: why it's capturing the imagination of all these kids now.

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Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, felt like a story made

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Speaker 1: for the tabloids. Right he was in LA there was

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Speaker 1: immediate interest in it. It felt like a TV movie

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Speaker 1: from the start. So here are the particulars of the crime.

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Speaker 1: Two brothers, Lyle and Eric Mendez. They were twenty one

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Speaker 1: and eighteen at the time of the murders, whose parents,

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Speaker 1: Jose and Kitty Menendez, were brutally murdered in the family

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Speaker 1: home in August of nineteen eighty nine. And initially this

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Speaker 1: seemed just like a random crime. The boys called it

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Speaker 1: in to nine one one. The father, Jose, who was

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Speaker 1: this very successful, wealthy and powerful Hollywood executive who had

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Speaker 1: sort of lived the American dream. He had immigrated to

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Speaker 1: America from Cuba with very little money and he'd made

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Speaker 1: all his own money. There was some set that maybe

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Speaker 1: this was a mob hit or somehow related to his

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Speaker 1: business because he was this big wig executive.

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Speaker 6: It's not supposed to happen in Beverly Hills. A movie

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Speaker 6: executive and his wife were brutally slain and.

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Speaker 1: Their million dollar mansion.

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Speaker 6: There were no clues and no suspects.

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Speaker 1: The crime initially was treated as just a random crime

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Speaker 1: that had happened to this family, and the family had

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Speaker 1: always projected this really all American family dynamic, right, successful dad,

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Speaker 1: pretty blonde mom. The two sons were very handsome. Lyle

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Speaker 1: was at Princeton, Eric had been accepted at UCLA, So

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Speaker 1: they seemed like classic Beverly Hills kids and Beverly Hills

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Speaker 1: nine oh two and oh. The show actually debuted in

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Speaker 1: October of nineteen ninety so the year okay, the year after, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that image would have been very much in the zeitgeist.

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Speaker 1: So initially there was a lot of sympathy for the boys. Right,

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Speaker 1: they were victims. I'll called nine one one after they

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Speaker 1: quotes found their parents.

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Speaker 3: Waits was the story that they had come home and

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Speaker 3: found the parents dead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I assume that that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: story they told, Right, The story was they came home,

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Speaker 1: they found their parents dead, got it? But the story

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Speaker 1: really blows up because the brothers do end up turning

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Speaker 1: themselves in in March of nineteen ninety okay, and admitting

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Speaker 1: to the murder. So there really isn't a doubt. They

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Speaker 1: have admitted for almost thirty four years that they murdered

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Speaker 1: their parents, but it wasn't really clear why. And the

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Speaker 1: reason they even got caught is because Eric was seeing

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Speaker 1: a therapist, Eric who is the younger brother, and he

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Speaker 1: confessed to the therapist, and in a really weird twist,

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Speaker 1: the therapist mistress got mad at him about something. The

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Speaker 1: therapist mistress, yes, the therapist mistress got mad a therapist

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Speaker 1: about something and in a rage, told the police that

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Speaker 1: the therapist had told her that he had this tape

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Speaker 1: recording a session with Er. He confessed to the murder.

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Speaker 1: So it was this very convoluted way that they got caught.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you can see why. This is like the

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Speaker 3: perfect made for TV. So there's even a mistress involved,

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Speaker 3: and the.

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Speaker 1: Police almost immediately started making statements about how savage these

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Speaker 1: murders were. These were really bloody murders. The crime scene

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Speaker 1: was incredibly bloody. Jose the father was shot six times

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Speaker 1: and the mother kitty was shot ten times. Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: so it was I think what they referred to as overkill.

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Speaker 1: The brutality of the murders is commented on a lot

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Speaker 1: in the media. It's part of what really sways public

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Speaker 1: opinion away from the boys. And then there are really

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Speaker 1: two other things that get a lot of attention. The

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Speaker 1: first is that after the murderers, the boys seem to

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Speaker 1: have gone on what is described in the press as

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Speaker 1: a spending spree.

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Speaker 5: They didn't do a very good job of acting their

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Speaker 5: roles of grieving. Sun police say the boys went a

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Speaker 5: wild spending spree, and unlike the relatives of most murdered victories,

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Speaker 5: the Menandoz boys did not seem to take much interest

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Speaker 5: in the police search for their parents' murderers.

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Speaker 1: So this sort of supports the idea that they're motivated

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Speaker 1: by greed and just wanted access to their father's money.

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Speaker 5: Right, Why did you need to buy a Rolex watch

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Speaker 5: four days after your parents were killed?

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Speaker 7: I didn't need to.

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Speaker 3: You wanted to.

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Speaker 1: Lyle bought a Porsche and a Rolex and randomly a

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Speaker 1: Hot Wings restaurant in Princeton, New Jersey, which I don't

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Speaker 1: even know. That's a strange investment. They moved out of

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Speaker 1: the house, which I guess is not weird since there

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Speaker 1: had been these brutal murders there, But they moved into

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Speaker 1: adjoining condos, which I think people found odd. Eric hired

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Speaker 1: a full time tennis coach and went on the tennis circuit.

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Speaker 1: But playing in the tennis like semi professional tendants are.

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Speaker 3: Good even if they hadn't murdered them. Strange way to

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Speaker 3: behave if your parents have just been murdered and you

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Speaker 3: don't want to look suspicious.

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Speaker 1: So that's the interesting thing. I read that some of

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Speaker 1: their family after all this came out, said, actually, these

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Speaker 1: were just their spending habits, like this is just how

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Speaker 1: they spent money. Oh, this was normal, and that this

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Speaker 1: may have seemed odd if you were grieving, but they

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Speaker 1: just spent money like crazy, and so they may just

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Speaker 1: have not understood that they needed to shift their behavior.

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Speaker 3: That's so like to the rest of America. When it's

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Speaker 3: now being reported in the press, it's insane because he's

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Speaker 3: I think, this family, but if you live in that

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Speaker 3: bubble in Beverly Hills, maybe you do right.

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Speaker 1: But in the press, this spending spree is treated as

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Speaker 1: a clear sign that they're just absolutely entitled, greedy brats

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Speaker 1: who were after the money. And that's really the second

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Speaker 1: thing I think that really sways public opinion against them.

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Speaker 1: They have this very clear motive. The motive is money.

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Speaker 1: That their father's estate is worth fourteen million dollars. The

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Speaker 1: two brothers are the sole beneficiaries of that fourteen million dollars, okay,

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that circulated was that maybe

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Speaker 1: he had been planning to withdraw them from his will

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Speaker 1: or he was planning on cutting them off. So the

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Speaker 1: motive was they wanted access to the money and they

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Speaker 1: wanted to secure that access forever. The other thing that

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Speaker 1: police revealed during this time is that they had become

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Speaker 1: suspicious of the brothers fairly early on. You know, at

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Speaker 1: the crime scene, they weren't suspicious of them. They didn't

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Speaker 1: actually test to see if they had fired guns recently,

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Speaker 1: which is very common if you're a suspect in a crime.

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Speaker 1: That really would have made a big difference, I think

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Speaker 1: in this case, but they weren't tested for that. They

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Speaker 1: really were initially treated like grieving suns, but the police

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Speaker 1: felt that they weren't really acting like grieving suns.

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Speaker 3: It's so interesting because hearing it now, you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: if this wasn't an uber, wealthy Beverly Hills family, isn't

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Speaker 3: the person who finds about it always the first suspect?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, everything I know about this I know

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Speaker 1: from law and order, So I have no idea what

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Speaker 1: it's like.

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Speaker 3: Standard protocol in this case.

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Speaker 1: But I assume that usually you would be a suspect

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Speaker 1: if both your parents were murdered and you happened upon

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Speaker 1: them in your home. But I think in general this

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Speaker 1: case was so out of the ordinary. Murders like this

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Speaker 1: just did not happen in Beverly Hills, So I think

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Speaker 1: in general the police were caught a little flat footed

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Speaker 1: at the top. And what eventually happens here though, and

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Speaker 1: this is really the crux of what these new fans

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Speaker 1: are really focused on, is that the brothers attorneys come

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Speaker 1: forward and say that their clients actually acted in self defense.

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Speaker 1: They killed their parents because they had been suffering from

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Speaker 1: years of emotional and sexual abuse, that the father had

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Speaker 1: been sexually abusing these boys for the majority of their lives.

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Speaker 1: And at the point that that story starts to be

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Speaker 1: put forward by the boys attorneys, there has been three

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Speaker 1: years where the majority of the public perception has been

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Speaker 1: shaped by the prosecution side of the story. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so no one really believed that they were victims themselves,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, the prosecutors said this was just an

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Speaker 1: attempt to assassinate the characters of the real victims, which

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Speaker 1: were their parents. So going into the trial, I think

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Speaker 1: it was safe to say that most people thought that

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Speaker 1: this was an open and shoycase and that the brothers

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Speaker 1: were just going to go to jail. And one other

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Speaker 1: sort of interesting thing about this is that this was

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Speaker 1: considered a landmark case because this was the first time

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Speaker 1: that lawyers were going to use the same defense used

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Speaker 1: in domestic violence cases, which is that the homicide was

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Speaker 1: in self defense and they feared for their lives. But

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Speaker 1: it's what's referred to as imperfect self defense because you're

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Speaker 1: not literally with a knife to your throat, but you

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Speaker 1: feel that your life is in danger. And this hadn't

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Speaker 1: been tested before outside of domestic violence, so in that sense,

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Speaker 1: it was like a.

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Speaker 3: Really interesting So it hadn't been used in a child

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Speaker 3: abuse case before.

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Speaker 1: No, and in the nineties, this was just considered a

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Speaker 1: shocking defense. Right, Conversations like this around sexual abuse, certainly

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Speaker 1: about sexual abuse between a father and his sons just

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Speaker 1: did not happen in the open. And so when this

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Speaker 1: trial began in nineteen ninety three, it was just a

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Speaker 1: huge case. There was an intense amount of attention. It

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Speaker 1: was broadcast in its entirety, as I said, gavel to

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Speaker 1: gabble as they called it on court TV. And in

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Speaker 1: the opening statements, the lawyers for the Menanda's brothers really

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Speaker 1: get into the sexual abuse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to ask you what evidence did

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Speaker 3: they provide for the sexual abuse.

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Speaker 1: There actually was a lot of contemporary US evidence, which

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Speaker 1: obviously you and I now understand is one of the

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Speaker 1: ways that you corroborate sexual abuse. But I think this

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Speaker 1: wasn't like a very well understood field, And as you

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Speaker 1: and I have talked about, there is sort of the

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Speaker 1: sense of how victims are supposed to behave and so

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of questions around this. But the

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Speaker 1: defense really paints this house as a house of horrors,

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Speaker 1: and there were many witnesses to it, like friends, families,

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Speaker 1: colleagues came forward and supported the brothers version of events.

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Speaker 1: The picture of Jose Menendez was essentially one of a

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Speaker 1: terrifying monster and Kitty as an alcoholic with a drug

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Speaker 1: abuse problem who was also emotionally abusive to the boys

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Speaker 1: and knew about the sexual abuse and did nothing about it.

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Speaker 3: And were they painting the father as physically and sexually abusive?

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Speaker 3: What had the people.

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Speaker 1: Witnessed, Yes, bruises, marx, etc. Okay, so they had not

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Speaker 1: witnessed the sexual abuse, but the boys had told some

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Speaker 1: of their cousins about the sexual abuse contemporaneously, so there

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Speaker 1: was a sense that this had gone on for years.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you would expect that if two people

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Speaker 1: were brutally murdered, their family would want to support them.

439
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: But for the most part, family came out in support

440
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 1: of the brothers because they really had seen that they

441
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 1: were treated pretty badly.

442
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 3: Had they also confessed the abuse to the therapist?

443
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: No, So that's I think one of the things that's interesting.

444
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: It seems that they had not confessed the abuse to

445
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: the therapist, and that was one of the things that

446
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: was used against them in the trial. But I think

447
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: that that's one thing that is part of that imperfect

448
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: victim trope that we talk about. I think for boys,

449
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: especially young men, talking about your father pretty brutally raping you.

450
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: The scenes that they end up describing, they both take

451
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: the stand. They both describe these scenes.

452
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 7: That started out with him coming in my bedroom and

453
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 7: telling me to get on my knees. I was on

454
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 7: the bed at the.

455
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 1: Time, and that was fairly common, wasn't it.

456
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 3: Yes. What did he tell you about telling people?

457
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 8: He just said that it was our secret. The bad

458
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 8: thing is what happened to me. Have I told anybody?

459
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 8: And I told him I never would.

460
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 1: And when he came back with the knife, what did

461
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: he do with it? If anything?

462
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 7: He put it on my neck. He put his hand

463
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 7: on my head and put the knife on my neck.

464
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: Did he threaten you with it?

465
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 7: Yes?

466
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: What did he say?

467
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 7: He said, I should kill you and next time I will.

468
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: And did you believe him?

469
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 7: Yes?

470
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: Really really disturbing details, like one of the brothers talked

471
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: about how he ate just an enormous amount of ketchup

472
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: and always needed lemons nearby. Was it at some point

473
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: after you were eleven years old that you developed a

474
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 1: rather peculiar eating habit.

475
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 7: Yes, I used a lot of lemon in my food.

476
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: And what do you mean by you? And no one

477
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: in the family understood why it was a weird kind

478
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: of like obsession with lemons, and he testified during the

479
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: trial that it was because that's what he used to

480
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: get the taste of his father semen out of his mouth.

481
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 3: WHOA, that is a fascinating detail.

482
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating detail, but it's so upsetting. The details

483
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: are really specific, and I think also hard to imagine

484
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: that these details are lies, because what kind of lie

485
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: is that? That's not a lie you make up? Right,

486
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: it's so very specific the thing. But the media is

487
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 1: not buying it. They are really skeptical of the defense,

488
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: and from what I can tell, almost the majority of

489
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: the media coverage at the time is incredibly pro prosecution.

490
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: A lot of talk of this defense refers to it

491
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: as the abuse defense or the abuse excuse, and they

492
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: just are like, this is a lie, and even if

493
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: it's true, it isn't an excuse for murder, which you know,

494
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: the lawyers for the brothers weren't arguing that it was

495
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: an excuse for murder. They were saying that it meant

496
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: that the murders were actually manslaughter. Right. The way that

497
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: they should consider this crime was as a manslaughter crime

498
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 1: rather than a murder crime. Because of the corroborating evidence

499
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: of this abuse. Yeah, and by the time the boys testify,

500
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: it's already a huge, huge circus. And then I think

501
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: this really dramatic and emotional testimony from the brothers. These

502
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: intense descriptions of abuse are just not something most people

503
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: have ever heard in their lives. This is the early nineties.

504
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: These aren't things that people talk about.

505
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 3: And so to be clear that their testimony is being

506
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 3: aired live, right, Yes.

507
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: This like incredibly dramatic testimony is ying aired live. Lyle

508
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: testifies that his father has been sexually abusing him since

509
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: he was six years old, but that at some point

510
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: he stopped.

511
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 5: How old were you when this stopped?

512
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 7: Eight? When you were about thirteen?

513
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 5: Did you think that it might be happening to someone else?

514
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 7: Yes, sir? And who did you think it was happening to? Eric?

515
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: And then Eric is crying while he watches Lyle, his

516
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: older brother, testify, And then Eric testifies, and he says

517
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: that the abuse never stopped for him.

518
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 7: I told him that things between dad and I were

519
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 7: still happening and that, and he kept asking what I

520
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 7: was talking about? Did you tell him what you were telling?

521
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 7: Finally I told him I told him they were just

522
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 7: sexual things, sexual things.

523
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 5: Yes, And did you tell him anything about any kind

524
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 5: of violence that would accompany it, or any kind of

525
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 5: threats from your father?

526
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 7: Yes?

527
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: And what did you tell him about violence?

528
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 7: I told him that there were pens and texts, that

529
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 7: dad would die, that Dad was sick in me and use.

530
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: And so he had basically been suffering in silence all

531
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: this time because his father had been threatening him that

532
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: if he ever told Lyle, he would murder them both.

533
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: And that is what Eric and Lyle say actually precipitated

534
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: the murders. That they began to realize that this was

535
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: never going to end. That they were terrified of their father.

536
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: They thought he was going to kill them, and Eric

537
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: was really terrified that now he told Lyle that they

538
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: were in danger. And so they say that they confronted

539
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: their parents and that that is when they learned that

540
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: their mother had known all along. They had thought that

541
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: they were protecting her from this information, but that in

542
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: one of these confrontations between the parents and the boys,

543
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: it becomes clear that she knew, and that in fact,

544
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: the parents are not really apologetic, and so again they

545
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: feel that this really proves that their lives are in danger.

546
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: And it's really hard to watch this testimony now, Like

547
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: I can't explain to you how hard it is to

548
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: watch with all the distance that we have, And I

549
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: really don't understand how people couldn't have found it believable.

550
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: I mean, if these boys were lying, they were incredible acting. Yeah,

551
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: to think of like an eighteen and twenty one year

552
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: old boy probably by the time the trial happened, like

553
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: early twenties, you know, to think of these two boys

554
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: getting up in front of what they knew was a

555
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: national televised audience and talking about these issues in the

556
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: way that they did.

557
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: Like it.

558
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: It's really hard to watch it and not have your

559
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: heartbreak for them. I really have trouble wrapping my head

560
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: around the way it was viewed at the time. But

561
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: it just gives you a sense of how poorly this

562
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: kind of thing was understood.

563
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, wow, So what happens next?

564
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: I want to mention a couple more things, just because

565
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: they end up being relevant. Later, one of the cousins

566
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: testified that when Lyle was eight, he told her about

567
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: the sexual abuse, so that would have been in nineteen

568
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: seventy six, and that she told Kitty, So there was

569
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: actual roborating evidence that the mother was aware. Mother knew,

570
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: and there was another cousin that Eric confided in when

571
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: he was thirteen, so there were some people around them

572
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: that knew. And again, as I mentioned, the defense team

573
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: is really trying to go for a manslaughter charge, right.

574
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: They just want to make sure that the brothers aren't

575
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: put away for a murder charge, which not only means

576
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: they'll be in prison for life, but there was a

577
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: death penalty element to this case. Okay, So they're not

578
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: even suggesting that the brothers shouldn't be held accountable in

579
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 1: some way. They're just saying that this is not a

580
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: first degree murder. And jury deliberations went on for a month. Wow.

581
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: One thing to note here is that the way this

582
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: trial was structured was a little weird. There were two

583
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: separate juries, but it was one trial, so each brother

584
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: had his own jury. Oh, but the trial was done

585
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: at the same time, okay. And what is really interesting

586
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: is that both jury's deadlock and there is a mistrial

587
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: for both brothers. And I saw this fascinating interview with

588
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: a female juror who said that on Eric's jury, at

589
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: least the deliberations broke down entirely on gender lines, that

590
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: the men really dug in that no man would ever

591
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: do to his son what these boys were saying Jose

592
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: Menendez did to them, really, and they wanted to convince.

593
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: The women were like yeah, obviously, yeah.

594
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: And the women believed them because women know that there

595
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: is a lot of abuse.

596
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: In the world. Okay, So mistrial means what exactly?

597
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: So mistrial means that they can be tried again. Often

598
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: in cases like this, there's like a settlement at this

599
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: point because the government doesn't want to go through this

600
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: whole circus again. But that doesn't happen here for reasons

601
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: that aren't clear. What does happen is that the second

602
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: trial takes place two years later. And it's worth noting

603
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: that between the two trials there is the OJ Simpson trial,

604
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: which is another huge media circus in LA happening at

605
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: the same time, essentially, and the prosecutors also lose that case.

606
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: So the judicial system in LA is reeling, and so

607
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: by the time the boys get back into court for

608
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: the second trial, there is only one jury, No cameras

609
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: are allowed, and the new prosecutors ask the judge to

610
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: limit the amount of testimony.

611
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 3: Regarding from the boys.

612
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: Okay, they say the abuse is not relevant and it

613
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: didn't happen, and the judge essentially agrees, and there's no

614
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: clear indication of why he made that choice, but it

615
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: significantly changed the trial. The prosecutors had a real advantage.

616
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: They went in knowing what the defense strategy would be,

617
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: whereas they didn't really know the extent of the abuse

618
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: going into the first trial, and they really focus on

619
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: the fact that this was a well planned and executed murder,

620
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: which I don't know how well planned it was, but

621
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: it is true that they bought guns a couple of

622
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: days beforehand. You know, there were things that they did,

623
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: and the judge just kept ruling against the defense on everything.

624
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: He took manslaughter off the table, which left only first

625
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: or second degree murder. Leslie Abramson, who was Eric's lawyer

626
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: who I mentioned, described the second trial as hell. To

627
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: give you an idea, there were fifty plus defense witnesses

628
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: for the first trial and half of that for the second.

629
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: The family members weren't even allowed to testify. So are

630
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: convicted on first degree murder and luckily they don't get

631
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: the death penalty and they are sentenced to life in

632
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: prison without parole. Wow, and that is where they are today.

633
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 3: That's where it's at. Okay.

634
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: They've been in prison for thirty four years since their convictions.

635
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: Both brothers have been married, even though California doesn't allow

636
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: conjugal visits for inmates with life sentences. One of them

637
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: has been married more than once, I believe. And you know,

638
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: they have just made the best of their lives in prison.

639
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 1: They do a lot of mentoring and peer work in prison.

640
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: One of them helped to design this big mural.

641
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: Have there been like profiles of them from prison over

642
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 3: the years.

643
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there have been some profiles, and Lyle does interviews.

644
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: Eric is more media shy. I think Eric's wife has

645
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: done some press initially when they first got married. But

646
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: this new interest I think has probably taken even them

647
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: by surprise. There were a lot of years where they

648
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: were just sort of making the best of their lives

649
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 1: in prison. And it's worth noting that one of them

650
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 1: said to a family member at one point, honestly, life

651
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: in prison is better than the life I had growing

652
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: up in that house, which really gives you a sense

653
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: of how scared they were as children in that house.

654
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: It really does sound like growing up in their house

655
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: was a brutal way to live.

656
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 3: Okay, so are we with the stands here, like I mean,

657
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 3: maybe not like the romantic stands.

658
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely not the romantic stands.

659
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 3: But hearing you tell this in the light of twenty

660
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 3: twenty four makes it sound like the TikTokers are actually

661
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 3: onto something. Yeah.

662
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: I think they have a point. I have to be honest.

663
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: Really digging into this case made me wonder how it

664
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: was possible that this was done in the way that

665
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: it was. The fact is, we just understand so much

666
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: more about the psychology of abuse and of victims, and

667
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: you can sort of understand that if you grew up

668
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: in a house where you were sexually abused from six

669
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 1: years old and physics abused and emotionally abused, the fact

670
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: that you would be so terrified of your parents that

671
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: you didn't feel like you could just like get up

672
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: and walk away. This idea that you could just leave,

673
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: and why didn't they just do that they were adults.

674
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: That is something we understand is not so simple, And

675
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: just like battered wife syndrome, we now have the concept

676
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: of a battered child syndrome.

677
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 3: It reminds me a little almost of the Gypsy Rose

678
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: case as well, Yes, and which TikTok is also obsessed with. Right, yeah,

679
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 3: but where yeah, years and years and years of abuse

680
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: she then has her boyfriend murder hermel anyway.

681
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: Yes, very similar I think in some ways to that

682
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: case where people said the same thing. That was a

683
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: case where it was munchilds and biproxy. So the mother

684
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: pretended she was sick and it turned out she was

685
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: in a wheelchair but she could walk, and people were like, well,

686
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: why didn't she just walk away? Which is just really

687
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: overly simplistic.

688
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 3: Right.

689
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: We develop a relationship with your parent when you're so

690
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: young and dependent that if that relationship is rooted in

691
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: this kind of intense sphere, you don't feel like you

692
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: can just walk o way. You think they're going to

693
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: find you and kill you. And honestly, who knows Jose

694
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: Menenda's does not come off like a man that you

695
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: should not be scared of in every depiction of him

696
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: that comes out during the trial.

697
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 3: Okay, So what happens now? Have the fans been effective

698
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: in asking for further scrutiny to the case.

699
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean, they've certainly been effective in drawing more attention

700
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: to the case. Yeah, but the appeals process had pretty

701
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: much played itself out. But recently there have been two

702
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: big developments that may actually change the fate of the

703
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: Menenda's brothers. The first one is a letter was discovered

704
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: written by Eric to one of the cousins that testified

705
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: on his behalf, and he had written him this letter

706
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: just eight months before the crime, in December of eighty eight, okay,

707
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: And this letter was found by one of their aunts,

708
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: that cousin's mother after the cousin died, So you know,

709
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: they've been in prison a long time. One of their

710
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: cousin passed away and the mother was going through his

711
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: papers and she finds this letter, and presumably it's a

712
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: letter that both Eric and the cousin forgot about because

713
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: it wasn't about the abuse. But in it Eric very

714
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: clearly references the abuse. Wow. At one point he writes,

715
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 1: I've been trying to avoid Dad, but it's still happening. Andy.

716
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: It's worse for me now. And then there's another part

717
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: where he says, every night I stay up thinking that

718
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 1: he might come in. I'm afraid he's crazy. He's warned

719
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: me a hundred times about telling anyone, especially Lyle oh Wow,

720
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: this is a piece of very contemporaneous evidence that happened

721
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: so far before the murders that there's no way that

722
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: they're just like making it up to cover up this crime.

723
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: But there's a bigger twist even and this one is wild.

724
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: At one point, Jose Menendez, who as I said, was

725
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 1: a Hollywood executive, was a top executive at.

726
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 3: RCAA Records, okay.

727
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: And while he was there, RCAA signed a very popular

728
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: Puerto Rican boy band from the eighties called Menudo Manudo.

729
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: It's the band that gave the Ricky Martin. Yes, yes,

730
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: it was one of the biggest boy bands of all

731
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 1: time and RCA signed them for thirty million dollars. And

732
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: an interesting thing about Menudo is that it is a

733
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: band that had an age limit, so once the boys

734
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: hit sixteen, they actually swapped them out so that the

735
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: boy band stayed forever young.

736
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 3: Oh wow, whoa Okay?

737
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: So in April of twenty twenty three, so just last year,

738
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: there is a former member of the band named Roy Roussello,

739
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: and he comes forward and says that in the nineteen eighties,

740
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 1: when he was fourteen or fifteen, the band's manager sent

741
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: him to go see Jose Menendez, the father of Lyle

742
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: and Eric Menendez, at the family home, and while he

743
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: was there, he was given a glass of wine which

744
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: he believes was spiked and Jose Menendez raped him. Oh wow.

745
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: And he says that there were also other occasions, at

746
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: least two other times where Jose Menendez sexually abused him.

747
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 3: Oh so this is new.

748
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: So this is totally new, and it corroborates the boys

749
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: descriptions of abuse. He came forward as part of a

750
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: docuseries that you can watch on Peacock called Menendez and

751
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: Menudo Boys Betrayed and it's actually a fascinating docuseries. I

752
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: recommend it. It's based on the reporting of two journalists.

753
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: One is named Robert Rand. He covered the case initially

754
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: and has become sort of an advocate for the boys

755
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: over the years. And the other is this woman Nary Inclan,

756
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: who Robert reaches out to when he realizes that there

757
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: is this sexual abuse component that he needs to do

758
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: some additional reporting. On the way Robert Rand thinks to

759
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: connect these two cases is that he's going through some

760
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: old notes and he remembers that Jose Menendez's assistant in

761
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: interviews with him often emphasized how obsessed with Minudo Jose

762
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: Menendez had been. He would go all the time to

763
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: their concerts, which was not a thing you know, you

764
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: usually did when you were like the top executive of Marcia.

765
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: That he talked about them all the time, that he

766
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: was kind of fascinated by them. And there have been

767
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: other allegations of abuse. That manager that ran Manudo, that

768
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: created Manunda, has been accused by other boys in the

769
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: band of having abused them. So it occurs to Robert Rand,

770
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: wait a second, maybe there's a connection here.

771
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: Wow.

772
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: He reaches out to this other reporter. She is someone

773
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: who's very skilled on doing sexual abuse reporting. She spends

774
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: a lot of time starting to talk to members of

775
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: Menudo just even to tell that story. And eventually, in

776
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: one of her conversations with Roy, she's talking to him

777
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: as part of this larger Menudo investigation, and he just

778
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: mentions it. He says, oh, you know, there was this

779
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: RCAA executive and he raped me, And she says she

780
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: got absolute chills.

781
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 3: Did the person making the accusation even make the connection

782
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 3: to the Menandez brothers.

783
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: No, Wow, he had not realized in all these years,

784
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: he had not made the connection. But in the docuseries

785
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: he describes going to the family house and he remembers

786
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: meeting the brother, but he just never connected it to

787
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: the larger story that was in the press at that time. Also,

788
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: you know, he was in Puerto Rico. He was in

789
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: this band. And that manager, by the way, is now

790
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: being investigated by the LAPD for the rape of Roy Roussello,

791
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: who is the person who has come forward to say

792
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 1: that he was abused by Jose Menendez. He has also

793
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: come forward to say that he was abused for years

794
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: allegedly by the manager Edgar Diez of Minundo.

795
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: Wow, it's amazing how these guys just like find each other.

796
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 3: They're like, oh, yeah, he's my kind. We'll just run

797
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 3: a sex trafficking right.

798
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: It feels like it was essentially a factory for this.

799
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean, the way he describes what went on with

800
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: this particular manager is that he would essentially just bring

801
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: in new boys and constantly wait.

802
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 3: Well, that makes you wonder if that's why they had

803
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 3: to stay forever. Y'all?

804
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: Right, of course, of course it makes you wonder that.

805
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: And so I was thinking about this, like, why do

806
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: we see so many cases of abuse like this, Like

807
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: the Nickelodeon case that's obviously become more prominent recently, and

808
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: I think what happens is is that if you are

809
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: a predator, you look for places that will give you

810
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: the most access to children. And working in entertainment, often,

811
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: especially when it's related to children, does give you a

812
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: lot of access and power and power because people want

813
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: fame and they want money, and so they're willing to

814
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: give their children over to you and trust you because

815
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: there's a tangible benefit to that. And so it was

816
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: really really sad to watch the stock You series, but

817
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: I really recommend it.

818
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes me want to watch it.

819
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: It just really broke my heart for poor Roy. So

820
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: where that leaves us is that in May of last year,

821
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,280
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, lawyers for the brothers filed a petition

822
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: in LA and asked for a new hearing and said

823
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: that this new evidence, the letter and Rory Roussello, the

824
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: former member of Menudo, coming forward, this evidence contradicts the

825
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: arguments prosecutors made in the second trial that there was

826
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 1: no abuse, and they've asked for the conviction to be overturned.

827
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: And their argument is that the brothers should never have

828
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: been convicted of murder, that this was clearly a case

829
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 1: of manslaughter because the brothers genuinely believed that they were

830
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 1: in danger because of the sexual and physical abuse. And

831
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 1: in June, a judge asked the LA District Attorney's office

832
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: to respond to this request before a judge can rule. So,

833
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: so this past June, and so because I have never

834
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 1: found a rabbit hole, I can't fall too deeply into,

835
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: I spoke to one of their lawyers yesterday, didn't.

836
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 3: Yes, of course, is this a different lawyer from there?

837
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 3: These are different lawyers from the original lawyers.

838
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: Yes. The lawyers are Cliff Gardner, who is a well

839
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: known attorney in California, and Mark Geragos, who is a

840
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: very famous attorney who often turns up.

841
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 3: Wait, okay, back up. So you're like, we got to

842
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 3: do this recording tomorrow. I just got it. Well, well,

843
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 3: I had a really.

844
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 1: Good reason for calling up Cliff. There have been recent

845
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: reports because of this filing, but I couldn't find a

846
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: timeline anywhere, Like I was like, okay, so now we're

847
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: waiting for the LA District Attorney's Office to respond, Like

848
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: when are they going to respond? And when can we

849
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: expect a ruling? It is true that if in fact,

850
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: the court agrees to give them a new trial, and

851
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: if they are convicted of manslaughter, they will get out

852
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: of prison because they have already served beyond the maximum

853
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: for mansilter.

854
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 3: How old are they now, like in their fifties.

855
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,479
Speaker 1: They're in their fifties, Okay, So I mean they would

856
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 1: get out of prison. So I imagine that they're pretty

857
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: interested in the timeline as well. But I couldn't find

858
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: one anywhere online, so I thought, why not. I left

859
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: a message for Cliff Gardner. I found his number online

860
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: and was like, Hey, I'm a reporter and I'm looking

861
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: into this story. I'm recording something tomorrow. Could you give

862
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: me a callback? And he did, and he was a

863
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: lovely man, and he said that they are in fact

864
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: waiting for the LA District Attorney's Office to respond. The

865
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: DA's office has asked for a couple extensions because there

866
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: is just so much from the first trials to go over,

867
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: and that even once they respond, there will be some

868
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: time before the court makes a decision, so there is

869
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,919
Speaker 1: no clear timeline, which is why I could not find one.

870
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: So I see it's my little bit of reporting. Wow,

871
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: the other big thing that's coming soon is that Ryan

872
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 1: Murphy has a series coming for Netflix about the Menanda's brothers,

873
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: So we're about to see a lot of attention. This

874
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: is the second installment of a series Ryan Murphy does

875
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: called the Monster Series for Netflix. Oh right, And the

876
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: first one was Dahmer, and it became the most watched

877
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: English series of all time within twenty eight days. It

878
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: reached a billion view hours in its first sixty days,

879
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: and wow, it was nominated for a bunch of Golden

880
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: Globes and Emmy Awards and won an Emmy Award.

881
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 3: And like a million think pieces written about how we

882
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: assessed Dahmer then, and every piece was sort of a

883
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 3: little many in retrospect exactly.

884
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: So I think we're about to get a lot more

885
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: in retrospect on the Menandez brothers. Javier Bardem and Chloe

886
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: Sevignier will star as the Jose and Kiddy Menendez. Wow,

887
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: So I think interest in this case is only going

888
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: to grow in the coming months. So I think that's

889
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: what comes next.

890
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 3: You can see why this has been the subject of

891
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 3: endless fascination. There's so many shwists and turns. You can

892
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 3: see why TikTok or wherever the stands are choosing to

893
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 3: post their mems, and I've decided to pick up on it. Yeah, gosh,

894
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I really want to keep following where this

895
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: ends up. I'm very interested to hear, and I hope

896
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 3: that we can keep in touch with the lawyer to

897
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 3: understand when this actually is happening.

898
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm now. I'm very invested in the future of

899
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: the Menandez Brothers case, and I will be following it,

900
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: so don't worry. I will keep you updated. This is

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00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: in Retrospect. Thanks or listening. Is there a pop culture

902
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: moment you can't stop thinking about and want us to

903
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: explore in a future episode. Email us at Inretropod at

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00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: gmail dot com or find us on Instagram at in retropod.

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00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 3: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

906
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 3: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

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00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 3: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,

908
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 3: which we may or may not delete.

909
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

910
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 1: and at Susi b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books

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00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen.

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00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 3: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the media.

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00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

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00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 3: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharon

915
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 3: Atia is our researcher and associate producer.

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00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our

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00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Ana Stem and Katrina Norbel.

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00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda

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00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are

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00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannacharum.

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Speaker 3: And Jessica Bennett. We are also executive producers. For even more,

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00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 3: check out in retropod dot com