Speaker 1: I'm Katie Curic, and welcome to Next Question. So I'm
Speaker 1: back in the city for a few days and away
Speaker 1: from my usual recording setups. So I apologize if I
Speaker 1: sound a little bit like I'm underwater, but I just
Speaker 1: had such a fascinating conversation with Steve Schmidt, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to get this episode out into the world as
Speaker 1: quickly as possible. You probably have heard of Steve before.
Speaker 1: He's a longtime Republican strategist, and he was the campaign
Speaker 1: manager for John McCain's two thousand eight presidential bid. In
Speaker 1: other words, he's a real Republicans Republican, but two years
Speaker 1: ago he quit the GOP and now, as co founder
Speaker 1: of the Lincoln Project, he's channeled all of his energy
Speaker 1: into defeating President Trump. We talked about what led him
Speaker 1: to renounce the party he's been loyal to for thirty years,
Speaker 1: what to expect during this final sprint to election day,
Speaker 1: and how he thinks Trump is um will impact our
Speaker 1: political system for many years to come. You renounced your
Speaker 1: membership in the Republican Party in two thousand eighteen, and
Speaker 1: you have said you are going to vote for Joe
Speaker 1: Biden absolutely. What was it that made you say, I
Speaker 1: don't want to be a Republican anymore. Well, the Republican
Speaker 1: Party by two thousand eighteen, and my view had become
Speaker 1: fully the party of Trump, and Trump is um and
Speaker 1: I think that we know more today than we did
Speaker 1: even in two thousand eighteen. The straw that broke the
Speaker 1: commis back for me were the children's detention and family
Speaker 1: breakup policies at the at the Southern border, and I
Speaker 1: just think they were appalling. They were immoral policies. They
Speaker 1: harkened back to the worst abuses in our country's history,
Speaker 1: the separation of families at the slave auction blocks, separation
Speaker 1: of Indian children from their families in the latter night
Speaker 1: teenth century, and that did it for me. What we
Speaker 1: see now, though, right is Trump is um fully formed, rooted.
Speaker 1: It's an ideology, it has meaning, and the Republican Party's
Speaker 1: platform and this is important because it's the third oldest
Speaker 1: political party in the world. It formed in eighteen fifty four.
Speaker 1: Republican Party of two thousand and twenty exists fully as
Speaker 1: an instrument for Donald Trump. It's a cult of personality.
Speaker 1: The evidence of that is the platform. With the platform
Speaker 1: requires is obedience to Donald Trump and loyalty to Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: That's the full meaning of Republicanism now, and that trump
Speaker 1: is ideology is one that is illiberal, anti democratic, bad
Speaker 1: for the country and the party that is the vessel
Speaker 1: for it, that has been the handmaidens to the cantactrophy.
Speaker 1: That's befall in this country. It's the Republican Party. You
Speaker 1: started something called the Lincoln Project. What is the goal
Speaker 1: of the Lincoln Project, Steve, It's to defeat Trump. And
Speaker 1: Trump is um, plain and simple as that plain and
Speaker 1: simple as that um. When when you look at the
Speaker 1: Republican Convention, there were three features to it. There was
Speaker 1: breath taking line of the type that you see in
Speaker 1: no healthy democracy anywhere in the world. One but was
Speaker 1: unprecedented in the political history of the country. From the
Speaker 1: from the gavel coming down right to begin it to
Speaker 1: the gavel coming down to end it, you saw utter lawlessness,
Speaker 1: flat out breaking and violating of dozens of federal laws
Speaker 1: that have to do with preventing the use of taxpayer
Speaker 1: dialars for partisan causes, the use of federal property. And then, lastly,
Speaker 1: and and really ominously, you saw the seizure of important
Speaker 1: symbols of the American Republic, of the of the state.
Speaker 1: You saw Trump take those symbols the White House for
Speaker 1: instants turn it into a partisan totem and an expression
Speaker 1: of his authority. So what does that all mean, Well,
Speaker 1: it means in essence that he's saying, I am the truth,
Speaker 1: I am the law, and I am the state. No
Speaker 1: thank you, and that ideology. He knew how deadly this
Speaker 1: virus was. He knew it. The Republican senators knew that.
Speaker 1: He knew. He lied to the country hundreds of times
Speaker 1: downplayed this. It's the biggest, greatest, deadliest lie in the
Speaker 1: history of the United States. That's the moment we're in,
Speaker 1: and it has decimated the economy, broken a million dreams,
Speaker 1: and has fundamentally ended the American way of life. There
Speaker 1: are many people who follow me on social media and
Speaker 1: they will say Steve Schmidt is biased. They described the
Speaker 1: media as communicating fake news. If that, in fact is
Speaker 1: the case and true, why does President Trump enjoy so
Speaker 1: much support Still? I think that there's two issues, and
Speaker 1: I think people get confused on them. Right, there's a
Speaker 1: there's a political question and there's a sociological question. And
Speaker 1: so let's start with the political question. That The political
Speaker 1: question is is that where you look right now in
Speaker 1: this where this race is, Joe Biden has a bigger
Speaker 1: lead Obama did, has a bigger lead that Bush did
Speaker 1: had as a bigger lead than Bill Clinton did. Here
Speaker 1: is a commanding lead. The majority of this country rejects Trump,
Speaker 1: and Trump is um and wants him gone. You look
Speaker 1: at the swing states right now, Biden is in a
Speaker 1: strong position. Donald Trump is losing the race. The second
Speaker 1: issue is a sociological question, And and at least a
Speaker 1: third of the country is in thrall to a cult
Speaker 1: of personality, and so for fort pent of the country,
Speaker 1: the millions of people who ascribed to Q and on
Speaker 1: who are poisoned by social media, by disinformation that's both
Speaker 1: organic and state sponsored um by a president who's lied
Speaker 1: twenty five thousand times and has let loose hundreds of
Speaker 1: Brascy theories. You have a billion dollar anger industry through
Speaker 1: extreme media in this country, and and all of it
Speaker 1: accounts for a number that's way too big in a
Speaker 1: healthy democracy that hasn't just surrendered their agency to a
Speaker 1: political leader, but have opted out of reality in some
Speaker 1: fundamental ways. And and the truth is, there is such
Speaker 1: thing as objective truth and fact. Then the wholesale rejection
Speaker 1: of it is authoritarian. You don't see that in democratic societies,
Speaker 1: and it should make everybody understand the degree to which
Speaker 1: the system is blinking yellow to red because of it.
Speaker 1: Let's get a little more granular. Steve has shove Biden
Speaker 1: up seven to eight points in national polls, also up
Speaker 1: in Arizona, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, North Carolina. President Trump appears
Speaker 1: to be closing the gap in Florida. So is it
Speaker 1: all going to get down to? As our late friend
Speaker 1: Tim Russert said in two thousand, Florida, Florida, Florida, I
Speaker 1: think Florida is is incredibly important for a couple of reasons. Um. First,
Speaker 1: Trump's made clear in a way that is completely alien
Speaker 1: to every other president, right like democracy requires someone being
Speaker 1: willing to lose, being willing to say we hear the
Speaker 1: voters get you next time. Trump Trump has inferred time
Speaker 1: and time again that unless he wins, the election is illegitimate.
Speaker 1: And there are a thousand bad things that I can
Speaker 1: think of off the top of my head, right that
Speaker 1: that flowed from that from violence in the streets uh
Speaker 1: to chaotic paralyzed government, a constitutional crisis. We should pay
Speaker 1: attention on Roger Stone, clown and criminal though he may
Speaker 1: be communicating to Donald Trump through the television, which is
Speaker 1: how you communicate to Donald Trump about seizing absolute power
Speaker 1: in the country. So Florida, right, Florida makes it very
Speaker 1: hard if Biden wins decisively there for Trump to make
Speaker 1: the legitimacy claim, because it means he's gonna lose big
Speaker 1: all over the country and it could be an early night.
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to see this election go on for weeks
Speaker 1: and months. So when you look at Florida right now,
Speaker 1: Trump is overperforming with Hispanic voters, and he is underperforming
Speaker 1: at a historical level with senior voters. And so Mike
Speaker 1: Bloomberg is gonna spend a hundred million dollar US in Florida.
Speaker 1: I think Donald Trump's in a lot of trouble there.
Speaker 1: If the election were tomorrow, he would lose. But Republican state,
Speaker 1: Republican governor. The COVID crisis has been a disaster there.
Speaker 1: The governor's a D S c has rival Trump's. But um,
Speaker 1: it will it will be a it will be a
Speaker 1: state that bears watching. Um And if Biden wins it.
Speaker 1: It's all over early on election, right. Why are Hispanics
Speaker 1: still trending towards Donald Trump? In Florida you have a
Speaker 1: lot of um human population obviously, but also Venezuelan uh
Speaker 1: South American that is triggered by the socialism message, which
Speaker 1: hasn't been rebutted effectively by the Democrats of the Biden campaign,
Speaker 1: you know, in the in the state now the way
Speaker 1: to go after those voters. I think he's on a
Speaker 1: corruption message, right. You know, they didn't necessarily leave their
Speaker 1: countries to come to America because of the politics of
Speaker 1: the government, whether it was you know, right of center Colombia,
Speaker 1: UM socialist, Venezuela, communist Cuba. Why they left was because
Speaker 1: of the corruption. It's just endemic to all of those systems.
Speaker 1: And you know, the ability to focus on Trump's corruption
Speaker 1: and you know that they see that quality coming to
Speaker 1: American life, right, would would be an effective message there.
Speaker 1: Who else is this socialism message resonating with that has
Speaker 1: not been effectively rebutted by the Biden administration, that somehow
Speaker 1: Biden presidency would be co opted by the extreme left.
Speaker 1: I think that there's a a a broad, a deep
Speaker 1: It extremely sophisticated multi layered propaganda UH network UM that
Speaker 1: includes Fox News, includes talk radio, includes Facebook chat sites,
Speaker 1: includes O. A. N and Alex Jones. And if you
Speaker 1: if you listen to the to the accumulation of it all, UM,
Speaker 1: you think America's cities or burning right now? That New
Speaker 1: York City, UM looks like something from Escape from New York,
Speaker 1: the movie in the late nine seventies. That that America's
Speaker 1: cities are burning, that chaos is at hands, that UM, socialism, Antifa,
Speaker 1: all of these things are about to descend upon America.
Speaker 1: And and there is there is a far too large
Speaker 1: number you know that that buys into it. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: we're we're going to see our first members of Congress
Speaker 1: who are a Cuban on conspiracy theorists, right, this is
Speaker 1: this is a conspiracy theory built around the fact that
Speaker 1: much of the governing class of the country or cannibalistic pedophiles,
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump is working secretly with the military to
Speaker 1: break up the ring and it's a global phenomenon. Is
Speaker 1: the genie out of the bottle, Steve. When it comes
Speaker 1: to that kind of false information getting perpetuated by all
Speaker 1: these people that you cited, it might be. Look, you
Speaker 1: have you have an Oregon you have reports of right
Speaker 1: wing militia setting up roadside checkpoints and just had to
Speaker 1: be rebuked by the sheriff's office. You see these cami,
Speaker 1: these these Hawaiian shirt clad boogaloo boys right storming state capitals.
Speaker 1: We ye. The reality is is that all of that
Speaker 1: is a minority of the country. And I wish those
Speaker 1: people well, I do. I wish them no harm. But
Speaker 1: we can't be ruled over by them, is what the is.
Speaker 1: What the point is is the the country has been
Speaker 1: pitched into a unbelievably precipitous decline over a over a
Speaker 1: short period of time, and it's being propelled by all
Speaker 1: of the pathogens that I just described, the combination of unreasonableness,
Speaker 1: outright insanity, opting out of out of reality, opting out
Speaker 1: of opting out now, and it's it's it's bad. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about another key demographic group that each candidate is
Speaker 1: fighting for. We're talking about white suburban women. Now. Trump
Speaker 1: won white women in two thousand and sixteen against Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton by nine I mean a lot of trouble now
Speaker 1: with white women. Explain that, Well, what white suburban women
Speaker 1: the the issue more than any other issue that that
Speaker 1: has peeled them off of him is his embrace of
Speaker 1: all of the racial animals and going back to George Floyd,
Speaker 1: to the embrace of the Confederate flag, that that demographic
Speaker 1: in his country is just repelled by it. And so
Speaker 1: he is in a lot of trouble in the in
Speaker 1: the suburbs, and everybody is affected by by COVID. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't say lightly that the American way
Speaker 1: of life has ended, but it but it has right,
Speaker 1: Like I mean, you can't go and be with a
Speaker 1: parent and end of life decision. The grandparents can't go
Speaker 1: to see the birth of their grandkids, weddings, birthdays or
Speaker 1: mitzvah's communions, tailgates, football, and the list goes on all
Speaker 1: over the and and none of it, none of it
Speaker 1: had a big more with political strategists and Lincoln Project
Speaker 1: co founder Steve Schmidt. Right after this, let's talk about
Speaker 1: the law and order message. That is the old chestnut
Speaker 1: that Republicans often return return to in campaigns. The Trump
Speaker 1: administration is using it. It's not very effective, or is it. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it has not been It has not been effective,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that it doesn't have the potential
Speaker 1: to be in in certain places that that message is aimed,
Speaker 1: if you want to break it down demographically at non
Speaker 1: college educated white male voters, particularly in the rust Belt states.
Speaker 1: But each time he delivers that message, he hurts himself
Speaker 1: with college educated, suburban women voters, particularly in the in
Speaker 1: in the sun Belt states, right in Florida, in Arizona.
Speaker 1: So he's in a death spiral, so to speak, because
Speaker 1: the message they've decided to communicate, the fear based message
Speaker 1: on the crime, is pulling share from them with one demographic,
Speaker 1: you know, with slight to marginal gains in a in another.
Speaker 1: But you look, if it is, it is jarring to
Speaker 1: watch some primetime Fox News right the depiction of what's
Speaker 1: happening in the in the in the country is this
Speaker 1: dystopian healthscape positioning Trump as the defender of Western civilization. Um,
Speaker 1: it's remarkable. It doesn't appear to be persuading people. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know for that for that Trump base, you know,
Speaker 1: does it maintain their intensity? Sure it does? Um. You know,
Speaker 1: has Trump effectively been able to use these issues to
Speaker 1: distract from having to answer questions about COVID? He absolutely
Speaker 1: has um. And but that's what it's about, right, It's
Speaker 1: about It's about a failure. It's literally the greatest failure
Speaker 1: in American history, COVID. And he wants to do anything
Speaker 1: he can to try to make the race about something else.
Speaker 1: And and here's the reality of the of the two
Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen elections. The the person who was losing
Speaker 1: that race was the person that the race was about.
Speaker 1: And for of the race, Donald Trump was losing because
Speaker 1: it was about him, and James Comey made it about
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton in the last week and Donald Trump won
Speaker 1: by seventy eight thousand votes across three states. He's going
Speaker 1: to try to do everything he can to make the
Speaker 1: race about something other than what it is about. And
Speaker 1: what it's about is the biggest failure in American history.
Speaker 1: Sitting behind the Resolute desk, you believe the Democrats have
Speaker 1: not been effective enough in refuting the socialism argument. What
Speaker 1: about the law and order our commits, Steve Half, The
Speaker 1: Democrats have been strong enough saying that most of the
Speaker 1: protests have been peaceful, but they do not tolerate some
Speaker 1: of the crime. I think the stakes are so enormously
Speaker 1: high in the selection, so enormously high. Um, I think
Speaker 1: the country is on the line, and so therefore anything
Speaker 1: that bets Trump's campaign is a bad thing. And so
Speaker 1: when you look at the civil rights leaders of the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, John Lewis, Martin, Luther King, they were two things,
Speaker 1: and we only remember the one or talk about the
Speaker 1: one right. They were profoundly important moral figures. They imbued
Speaker 1: this movement with justice and righteousness, and it was fueled
Speaker 1: by the morality of non violence. And what what it
Speaker 1: what had proved is the dignity of the movement and
Speaker 1: the justice right that it was, that it was striving,
Speaker 1: that it was striving to achieve. The second part is
Speaker 1: they were really smart political strategists. They were really smart.
Speaker 1: They moved public opinion to their side. So like, let's
Speaker 1: look at Portland's right. Here's an idea, get away from
Speaker 1: the federal courthouse. Deny oxygen to the federal stormtroopers, unbadged math,
Speaker 1: no ideas, be smart in the tactics there. There there
Speaker 1: should be no tolerance for looting, for disorder, for villions
Speaker 1: in cities. And you see, the mayor of Portland's is
Speaker 1: every bit the incompetent right that the mayor of New
Speaker 1: York is that the governor of Florida is right. We've
Speaker 1: seen some profoundly incompetent political leadership, most of it in
Speaker 1: the Republican Party, but some of it in the Democratic Party.
Speaker 1: And Democratic leaders should absolutely make clear right that the
Speaker 1: burning and looting of a city for any is intolerable. Intolerable,
Speaker 1: let's talk about blue colored voters. Listen to this quote
Speaker 1: by a thirty year old electrician in Ohio from an
Speaker 1: article on the Economists quote, He's done a great job.
Speaker 1: He's got everyone back to work. I'm pretty much for him.
Speaker 1: Another pipe fitter added, he shoots his mouth off, but
Speaker 1: at least that shows he's honest. What's your reaction into
Speaker 1: those statements? Um? I think the Democratic Party has a
Speaker 1: has a cultural problem. I was asked at a dinner
Speaker 1: with a lot of Democrats to what would what would
Speaker 1: my advice be for this for this election, and that
Speaker 1: I answered it like this. I said, imagine that there's
Speaker 1: a building going up in New York City, though there's
Speaker 1: a rural example for this also, and that building is
Speaker 1: eighty stories high and there's hundreds of people working on it.
Speaker 1: First Democratic candidate for president walks by the building and
Speaker 1: they just don't notice anyone there, like the people that
Speaker 1: are working on it are just invisible to them. Um,
Speaker 1: they would fall into the category of what FDR talked
Speaker 1: about is the invisible man, the forgotten man. The second
Speaker 1: Democratic candidate walks by the site and sees the men
Speaker 1: and women working on it, sees tattoos, see cigarette smoking,
Speaker 1: and sees the ploricals it says, none of these people
Speaker 1: will be out in East Hampton this summer, thank god.
Speaker 1: UM just doesn't care for them. Third candidate walks by
Speaker 1: that building site and what they see is the dignity
Speaker 1: of labor. What they what they see are people doing
Speaker 1: hard jobs, dangerous jobs, necessary jobs, doing things whether it's
Speaker 1: wiring and welding eight d feet in the air, that
Speaker 1: they couldn't do themselves in a million years. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the Democratic Party that Harry Truman and John Kennedy
Speaker 1: and Bobby Kenny and Bill Clinton would have would have recognized, right.
Speaker 1: And and there is a there is elitism right in condescension,
Speaker 1: right that flows from the elites of this country towards
Speaker 1: the working class people in this country. In the eyes
Speaker 1: of a lot of working class people, and one of
Speaker 1: the vessels one of the institutions, right that that does
Speaker 1: that to them or the Democratic parties politicians, you know,
Speaker 1: when people are laz about manufacturing jobs, all of these things.
Speaker 1: You know, Trump speaks in a language um that resonates
Speaker 1: with with some of them. During the campaign in two
Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen, Donald Trumps that he could shoot someone
Speaker 1: on Fifth Avenue and his supporters would still support him.
Speaker 1: In many ways. That's a very few statement, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Look thirty three thirty four of the country wherever, wherever
Speaker 1: you want to peg the number, no problem, I mean,
Speaker 1: you you have. I mean Trump's demagoguery is spectacular. But
Speaker 1: the trend line existed before before Trump and in an
Speaker 1: election has become a type of war, type of battle
Speaker 1: where the vote right is is cast for a lot
Speaker 1: of people in this country to inflict harm on their
Speaker 1: other enemy tribes. And that's what it is now. You
Speaker 1: look at some of the cultural stuff. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: we know when Trump goes out and you know, says
Speaker 1: stand up for the flag, you know, and embraces the
Speaker 1: cops and the and the fireman in the way that
Speaker 1: he does. Now, all of it is demagoguic. In the
Speaker 1: extreme right because he is depicting this civil war literally
Speaker 1: in the country where the cities are burning, where he's
Speaker 1: shown such hostility to the democratic cities, the Democratic States,
Speaker 1: And you know, there there's a market for it, and
Speaker 1: you know one should no one should be naive about
Speaker 1: how that market came to be. I mean, look, we
Speaker 1: got there's a multi billion dollar industry in this country
Speaker 1: that exists to piss people off and to turn them
Speaker 1: against each other. Ask to you about the impact on
Speaker 1: Bob Woodward's book, Jeffrey Goldberg's article in the Atlantic about
Speaker 1: calling people who served in the military suckers and losers,
Speaker 1: Michael Cohen's book, Mary Trump's book. There's a whole industry
Speaker 1: of people who are who are coming out and speaking
Speaker 1: out against President Trump. Will those things move the needle
Speaker 1: at all? Or will they make his supporters dig their
Speaker 1: heels in even more? There are small slices of undecided voters,
Speaker 1: and there are Republican voters who know how badly he's
Speaker 1: failed that that I have to make a decision to
Speaker 1: vote for Joe Biden. Right that they are, and we
Speaker 1: we know this on our targeting and our and our research.
Speaker 1: So when so, the military is the most respected institution
Speaker 1: in the country. Do I think that will hurt him.
Speaker 1: I think that that will hurt him. I think that
Speaker 1: people know. Number one, that he said it. It sounds
Speaker 1: like the type of thing Trump would say. He's basically
Speaker 1: said that type of stuff publicly before. It's a perfect
Speaker 1: annunciation of the Trumpian philosophy. So yeah, and I think
Speaker 1: it's a I think it's a disgrace, right, And I
Speaker 1: do think that hurts it, um the all of it. Right.
Speaker 1: There's been some criticism of of Bob Woodward about how
Speaker 1: could you have this and not let the country no. Look,
Speaker 1: I mean some journalists report on television, some right for magazines,
Speaker 1: so him, right for monthly magazines, and some right books.
Speaker 1: And and what's the argument, right that it wasn't obvious
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump was lying, that he was delusional, that
Speaker 1: in fact, the snake oil cures and the advice to
Speaker 1: Jack lysshol were probably not good ones. Right there, there's
Speaker 1: nothing that we didn't already know right that that Woodward
Speaker 1: has revealed. But four right, the the only open question
Speaker 1: was was it the case that Trump just wouldn't absorb
Speaker 1: information or was it, as we now know, he did
Speaker 1: absorb the information He knew. It's the it's the greatest misjudgment, malfeasance,
Speaker 1: literally in the history of the country. There's there's nothing,
Speaker 1: there's nothing even close. There's nothing even close. Stay tuned
Speaker 1: for more of my conversation with Lincoln Project co founder
Speaker 1: Steve Schmidt. Steve, much of this election will really depend
Speaker 1: on turnout. We saw the highest historic turnout levels for
Speaker 1: the two thousand eighteen mid terms. Are people sufficiently fired up,
Speaker 1: in your view, to actually go out and vote or
Speaker 1: send in their mail in ballots? Um? You look, I
Speaker 1: think all of the polling shows that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of intensity in the race on you know, on on
Speaker 1: both sides. I think that you know, Trump's barkcore supporters,
Speaker 1: UM will be excited to vote for him. And I
Speaker 1: think that there's incredible intensity around the attitude of people
Speaker 1: who want him out, who want to remove from power. UM. Now,
Speaker 1: I think that one thing that's that's just up in
Speaker 1: the air. You know, you look at some of the
Speaker 1: poll numbers and you look, you know, Republicans rely on
Speaker 1: mail and voting, right and Trump has turned off millions
Speaker 1: of people to mail in voting, while the parties are
Speaker 1: spending tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: The Republican Party included trying to get people to do
Speaker 1: mail in voting. So I don't know what that looks like,
Speaker 1: right I don't know what the impact that is when
Speaker 1: you when you look at like states for like right now,
Speaker 1: you see Democratic advantages on mail and bat mail in
Speaker 1: balloting returns, absolute ballot requests that are just in the
Speaker 1: numbers or staggered. So what does the COVID election look like?
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, you know, I I think that
Speaker 1: um you know, I think everybody should take seriously, Um
Speaker 1: you know, the ability of a pathetic Trump, governors, secretaries
Speaker 1: of state, you know, in Trump's name, to interfere on
Speaker 1: election day all over the country. I think this could
Speaker 1: be a very chaotic election. Bred Sicario was saying the
Speaker 1: other day that there's a real divide that exists between
Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans, that Republicans are going to go more
Speaker 1: likely than not in person voting Democrats mail in ballots.
Speaker 1: So on election night it could appear that Donald Trumps
Speaker 1: won because the mail in ballots had yet have yet
Speaker 1: to be counted. That is a scenario that could that
Speaker 1: could happen and it's not a great scenario. Why well,
Speaker 1: because Trump will claim has signaled that he'll claim that
Speaker 1: that these mail in ballots are fraudulent, and that as
Speaker 1: his lead evaporates, that result is thus illegitimate. And you,
Speaker 1: if you really want to stay up at night quaking
Speaker 1: and fear about American democracy, read up on how much
Speaker 1: license electors have under the Constitution to do as they
Speaker 1: will as as the Electoral College gets ready to meet. Um.
Speaker 1: We we have we have had in this country peaceful
Speaker 1: transition to power since it's never been in question, right, Um.
Speaker 1: George the Third asked what Washington would do, and when
Speaker 1: he was told that Washington intended to go home to
Speaker 1: Virginia in retirement and to give up power, George the
Speaker 1: Third said, and that will make him the greatest man
Speaker 1: of this age. This is the most fundamentally American aspect
Speaker 1: of our democracy is that no person is above the system.
Speaker 1: And so you have for the first time someone who
Speaker 1: is lighting a fire around the idea of the legitimacy
Speaker 1: of an election for president of the United States in
Speaker 1: the United States of America. It's astonishing. And and that
Speaker 1: and that no one, that no one in the Republican
Speaker 1: Party takes to the floor of the Senate and House
Speaker 1: and condemned this. It's outrage. How does it look for
Speaker 1: both Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham who have been stalwarts
Speaker 1: supporters of the president, they're both up for reelection. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, look, you know, Mitch McConnell is likely to win.
Speaker 1: You know, Amy McGrath is a is a good candidate
Speaker 1: on paper, but just is not is not caught on
Speaker 1: out there um against McConnell. Lizzy Grahamson is in trouble
Speaker 1: in South Carolina. Um. You know, he is in a
Speaker 1: two point race, but under under fifty Um, I think
Speaker 1: that Jamie Harrison could beat Lindsey Graham. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: I I think that Lindsay is so vulnerable on the
Speaker 1: character questions, the just it's his conduct is disgraceful and
Speaker 1: you know, and and egregiously so and like at a
Speaker 1: at an Olympic gold medal level. And there's there's a
Speaker 1: lot of competition, you know, in the disgrace Olympics, right,
Speaker 1: that surrounds that surrounds the Donald Trump era. But I
Speaker 1: think Republicans are on track to lose the majority um
Speaker 1: in the Senate. And you'll see losses in the House races,
Speaker 1: and the realities is the party from a total number
Speaker 1: of seats state legislatures, everything else has been decimated in
Speaker 1: the Trump erea. And it's important to remember this is
Speaker 1: a redistricting year. So the Republican year is going to
Speaker 1: have implications for Republicans for the next you know, for
Speaker 1: the next ten years. But but I think like one
Speaker 1: thing that people really don't understand so much is that
Speaker 1: you know, what happens when Republicans lose, and they lose
Speaker 1: and they lose power, right, and people say, well Trump
Speaker 1: will be gone and right, things will start snap back
Speaker 1: to normal. That's not what's gonna happen when when a
Speaker 1: political party is not a consumer product. Right, It's not
Speaker 1: like you have a new cola beverage and say, God,
Speaker 1: that sucks, No one likes it, right, so we'll we'll
Speaker 1: get rid of that, put a new one out. Political
Speaker 1: parties are almost like astronomical objects, like a like a
Speaker 1: star apsing. As the star collapses, it shrinks. As it shrinks,
Speaker 1: it gets more dense. As it gets more dense, it
Speaker 1: gets hotter. Right, So the Republican Party is shrinking, right
Speaker 1: as it loses power and Trump isn't gonna go away.
Speaker 1: Trump is Um will be here to stay. You'll have
Speaker 1: a very early start to the next presidential campaign cycle
Speaker 1: right away, right in, in in, and the party is
Speaker 1: just gonna get crazier. It will get crazier, and and
Speaker 1: it will be led by the presidential candidates and by
Speaker 1: the media figures, right who will have the most power
Speaker 1: because they'll be out of power in the government. And Um,
Speaker 1: we're we're we're in for. We're in for years and
Speaker 1: years and years of of an extremism in our in
Speaker 1: our politics, fomented by what will be the rent mint
Speaker 1: of of Trump's support basis as it as it becomes,
Speaker 1: whatever it's going to become in these next years, you'd
Speaker 1: be a little more sp I mean, you're kind of
Speaker 1: talking theoretically. Can you kind of give me examples so
Speaker 1: you're saying that Fox News Trump, I mean, give me,
Speaker 1: give me examples so people can really understand what you're saying.
Speaker 1: You know, the most important figure in the Republican Party,
Speaker 1: right if the Senate loses its majority, Trump loses the
Speaker 1: White House is gonna be Tucker Carlson, Right, it will
Speaker 1: be It would be Tucker Carlston. It will be Laura Ingram,
Speaker 1: it will be Mark Leven Right, they will be the leaders,
Speaker 1: right because they have media platforms right of this noxious movement.
Speaker 1: Tom Cotton, Nicky Haley, the governor of South Dakota will
Speaker 1: all be will all be candidates. Mike Pence will will
Speaker 1: be a candidate. Um and and the more kid, the
Speaker 1: fight is gonna be over, right, who is the biggest
Speaker 1: trump Ist in the in the race, who carries on
Speaker 1: the legacy And and that legacy right will be built
Speaker 1: on the illusion that the election was stored, right, so
Speaker 1: that there will be a mythology right that exists around
Speaker 1: the start of the next election about the stolen election,
Speaker 1: that that Trump is the leader. I mean Trump. Trump's
Speaker 1: not gonna do with George W. Bush and Barack Obama
Speaker 1: did right, he will he will be ever present in
Speaker 1: an American life. He's not. He's not going gently into
Speaker 1: any any retirement. And so you know, all of this
Speaker 1: stuff that that's out there now, right, that's been encouraged,
Speaker 1: the all these white supremacist and white nationalist groups, all
Speaker 1: of the racial animals, the demo, it's it's all stripped there.
Speaker 1: He's just plainly evident to see that there's a there's
Speaker 1: a movement in this there's a political party in this country.
Speaker 1: One of them doesn't doesn't exist to make the union
Speaker 1: more perfect anymore, doesn't exist to advance policies under an
Speaker 1: intellectual framework. It exists to be obedient and loyal to Trump.
Speaker 1: That's what the platform is and what will become of
Speaker 1: Donald Trump himself if in fact he's defeated. I don't
Speaker 1: I have I have no idea. You know, he may
Speaker 1: be prosecuted, um in various jurisdictions. If you read accounts
Speaker 1: of the investigations that are underway, from tax fraud to
Speaker 1: charitable fraud, right to to what have you. But but
Speaker 1: he will. He will be the leader of a faction
Speaker 1: that's about thirty five percent of the of the country.
Speaker 1: Um M. And he will. He will be a huge
Speaker 1: figure in the in the politics and the life of
Speaker 1: the nation. Will be a destabilizing, a date destabilizing force.
Speaker 1: Um he may. He may well decide to set up
Speaker 1: his own Trump media network. Who knows, um, But but
Speaker 1: but he's not going anywhere, that's for sure. Is there
Speaker 1: a chance that the Republican Party will reconstitute itself with
Speaker 1: people whose ideology is more closely aligned with say yours
Speaker 1: or yours was, You can't have a modern political party.
Speaker 1: I don't believe any longer and accommodate within that coalition
Speaker 1: people like me, with people like Mike Pence who believe
Speaker 1: if you have a gay teenager, what you should do
Speaker 1: is take them, torture them, and pray away the game.
Speaker 1: I get some moral it's wrong on on issue after issue,
Speaker 1: the racial animus that we've seen unleash. They can't. There's
Speaker 1: no compromise. Those elements have to have to go, have
Speaker 1: to be have to be defeated, have to be put
Speaker 1: back underground. What it's a political party that's not committed
Speaker 1: to American democracy? Sure, where is the outrage over with
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, the commander in chief of the American military,
Speaker 1: what he said about the men and women, some of
Speaker 1: whom right now are in harm's way? Where is the
Speaker 1: out or are people who died right absolutely like but
Speaker 1: Susan Collins Corey guard there all these people, So let
Speaker 1: me understand this. They they all knew how deadly COVID was,
Speaker 1: and it's clear now they all knew that Trump knew
Speaker 1: how deadly it was, and yet they watched him go
Speaker 1: out day after day after day, lie to the American people,
Speaker 1: politicized common sense preventative measures like mask wearing. They watched
Speaker 1: this insanity play out for months, as the death toll
Speaker 1: rose and rose and rose, and they did nothing nothing.
Speaker 1: What Why didn't one of them march down to the
Speaker 1: Oval office and say stop it? What are you doing? Well?
Speaker 1: Why didn't one person on the White House f hundred
Speaker 1: thousand people dying say what the fun is going on here? Why? Nobody? Nobody?
Speaker 1: And then Susan Collins premise of a reelection bit is
Speaker 1: give me six more years so I can watch your back.
Speaker 1: I'll fight for you. Oh my god, I mean the
Speaker 1: the collapse of this institution into a cesspool of just immorality, indecency, malice.
Speaker 1: But but it's also fundamentally become undemocratic. Trump assault institutions,
Speaker 1: the rule of law. It's a threat to American liberty
Speaker 1: and everybody should wake up to that. You know, It's like,
Speaker 1: what do you say to to a Trump supporter, you know,
Speaker 1: in a in a somewhere in the in the country.
Speaker 1: But I'll say is wake up, wake up? You think
Speaker 1: this man cares about you, your family, about the country.
Speaker 1: We listened to his words, look at his actions. He's
Speaker 1: wrecked the country in four years. If I stood here
Speaker 1: on the day that he was elected, and I was
Speaker 1: pretty pessimistic, and I sat there and I told you
Speaker 1: that as we were coming into about two months out
Speaker 1: from the we'd have two hundred thousand dead people, shattered economy,
Speaker 1: American way of life basically done. Americans can't leave the country.
Speaker 1: Would you would you would have been You would have
Speaker 1: looked at me and thought I should be locked up.
Speaker 1: I mean, the the performance here is so far out
Speaker 1: of bounds of anything that we've ever seen in the
Speaker 1: entire scope of history of this country. It's never been
Speaker 1: an act of incompetence that that's even a remotely close
Speaker 1: to to what Donald Trump has done, not even remotely close.
Speaker 1: Is there any scenario, Steve, where you could see Donald
Speaker 1: Trump getting re elected? Sure, Look, we're living in the
Speaker 1: middle of historic and momentous events, and some of those
Speaker 1: events have not played out yet before the before the election.
Speaker 1: Right now, it looks like Donald Trump is going to
Speaker 1: be defeated. Um, that's the trajectory of the of the election.
Speaker 1: But could that change? Um? It could? I think these
Speaker 1: debates are going to be monumentally important, and you know,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's gonna have to make the case. He has
Speaker 1: to take the presidency from Trump. He has to lead
Speaker 1: a broad coalition of people in this country, and he
Speaker 1: has to communicate that we can do better than this,
Speaker 1: that this is, that this is an outrageous, an outlandish
Speaker 1: situation that our country is in. Do you have faith
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden is strong enough to do that. I do.
Speaker 1: I've been really encouraged by his performance over the last
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. I think I think he is genuinely
Speaker 1: outraged and offended, first over Trump's desecrations of his duty
Speaker 1: with regard to the military, but also with regard to
Speaker 1: what we're going to hear on all of these Woodward
Speaker 1: tapes as they're as they're released and we get to
Speaker 1: all the revelations. And I think that when he and
Speaker 1: I think that Joe Biden understands from his comments in
Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks, that he has to confront
Speaker 1: Trump's vile character and the lethality of his incompetence in
Speaker 1: unsparing terms, in unsparing terms, and finally, what do you
Speaker 1: see unfolding on November three? Um, just from a strategist
Speaker 1: point of view, and from a turnout and votes being counted, etcetera.
Speaker 1: You know, sometime in early October four years ago, I
Speaker 1: said it looked like Hillary Clinton was on track to
Speaker 1: get four electoral votes, and she was, Um. I think
Speaker 1: if there was one scenario right now that you know,
Speaker 1: I think is the most likely scenario, I think it's
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden will have a decisive victory on election night,
Speaker 1: and that a lot of the scenarios that are the
Speaker 1: worst case scenarios are not going to play out, but
Speaker 1: they have to be prepared for and we have to
Speaker 1: consider the unthinkable when it comes to Donald Trump, right,
Speaker 1: questions about the legitimacy of the election are profoundly important.
Speaker 1: I mean, our our democratic our democratic history is not
Speaker 1: an entitlement to a democratic future. It's not, it's not.
Speaker 1: This is this goes to the heart of the idea
Speaker 1: of the country. We picked the leaders. Government works for us.
Speaker 1: We tell the government what to do. Government of the people,
Speaker 1: by the people, for the people. Right to vote, which
Speaker 1: has been expanded that franchise over the course of our history.
Speaker 1: To everybody, this is this is, this is on the line.
Speaker 1: And when when a president says the things that he says,
Speaker 1: he should be taken at his word. You don't think
Speaker 1: it's the possibility that he will claim victory on election
Speaker 1: night because mail in ballots, the majority of which will
Speaker 1: be then in Democratic voters, won't have been counted. I
Speaker 1: know for sure that he will look out for himself
Speaker 1: and not the country. I don't. I don't know. Is
Speaker 1: it possible that Acting Deputy Secretary Chad Wolf, on a
Speaker 1: report of voter fraud, deploys Homeland Security agents to seize
Speaker 1: ballot boxes? I think that's possible. Do do I think
Speaker 1: that there are a hundred thousand federal forces around polling
Speaker 1: booths with long guns? I think that's possible. Uh? Do
Speaker 1: I do? I think that Donald Trump would try to cheat? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Would he try to steal the election? Will Will he
Speaker 1: do everything he can to cause as much chaos as
Speaker 1: a hedge against the defeat. Will he acknowledge the will
Speaker 1: of the voters? He will not. Will he do what
Speaker 1: Richard Nixon did in nineteen sixty when he could have
Speaker 1: challenged John Kennedy's victory? He will not. Will he do
Speaker 1: what al Gore did when al Gore told his team
Speaker 1: not to attack the Supreme Court, he will not. And
Speaker 1: so this this election is between two very different men.
Speaker 1: Only one of them believes in the democratic institutions and
Speaker 1: history of the of the country. It's important to understand
Speaker 1: that does it for my conversation with Steve Schmidt, who
Speaker 1: is the co founder of the Lincoln Project, and one
Speaker 1: thing is for sure, he is very passionate and is
Speaker 1: very worried about the future of our country. I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode if you can enjoy an episode
Speaker 1: like this of Next Question, and I look forward to
Speaker 1: sharing our new podcast series beginning October one, called Turnout,
Speaker 1: all about Voting in America. Thanks again for listening. Until
Speaker 1: next time, I'm Katie Curic. Next Question with Katie Kuric
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curic Media.
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Katie Kurk, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang.
Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is
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Speaker 1: Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagin, and Lowell Berlante, Mixing
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