WEBVTT - Gender Fluidity In The Metaverse 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.160 I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News, 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:10.160 and this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heart podcast. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:17.479 It's Wednesday, July six. I don't know about you, but 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.840 I'm the kind of person you might describe as extremely online, 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.760 and that's a description that's been true four years. I'm 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:26.680 part of a generation that grew up with the Internet, 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:30.880 with social networks that long predated Facebook or Twitter, and 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.760 with online identities that sometimes felt more authentic than my 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.599 offline self. Experimenting with who you are online, especially if 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.720 those identities are really different from how you present to 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.080 the analog world, that's not a totally new concept. Neil 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.680 Stevenson famously coined the phrase metaverse all the way back 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:55.760 in so it's no surprise that folks are using newish 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.680 technologies like crypto on the blockchain to play with their 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:03.040 self expression. But some folks are using blockchain enabled structures 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:08.280 to monetize these experiments with identity, including their gender presentation. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.880 For more on crypto and identity, I'm joined by Bloomberg 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:16.160 reporter Emily Nicole and by Florence Smith Nichols, a PhD 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:24.640 student who researches, games, ethics, and artificial intelligence. Emily as 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.080 always a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thanks 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.720 for having me. We are going to talk about crypto 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:36.240 and money and gender identity and gender fluidity and people 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.800 pretending to be other folks for the sake of monetizing 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.400 that identity. But before we get into some of that, 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.720 let's start with the crypto mechanics here. What are the 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.080 vehicles and what are the you know, what's the why 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.920 of why people are are doing this online? So I think, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:56.920 as it always is in crypto, there are always people 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.240 seeking to find new ways to break boundary, is, to 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.920 establish new forms of hierarchies in crypto and ultimately make money. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.320 And in this scenario or this universe, UM, we are 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:15.240 looking specifically at doubts, which are decentralized autonomous organizations. You 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.880 could think of them a little bit like companies, but 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.640 they operate almost exclusively on a code first basis, so 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.560 everything they do is voted on by the community, using 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:29.560 blockchain contracts to execute those functions once they pass or 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.400 get rejected. And they usually have a group of people 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.119 at the top rather than a single person. And there's 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.560 that that group is it's like a governance committee, it's 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.080 a board, it's a what what how does that work? Really? 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.480 So the people at the top might be the founders 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.240 of the project that we're talking about. They might be 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.800 people who have run their way up through the group 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.040 by contributing a lot to the to the community and 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.799 therefore have been decided that they have warranted themselves a 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.359 leadership position. But you won't have somebody who's the CEO 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:01.920 or you know, the CFO or whatever. You might have 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.480 somebody who's in charge of treasury, for example, to you 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:06.959 to use the crypto terminology, but you're not going to 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.320 have somebody who you know, like does the analysts call 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:13.079 at nine am after the earnings? So this is it's 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:18.639 a club and there are members and then there are 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.160 people who, you know, listening to their members most of 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.120 the time decide how what the club's priorities are, what 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:27.280 they're going to spend as you say, their treasury onto 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.120 the money or the crypto that they have in the bank, 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.320 as it were. But what do dows have to do 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.760 with gender identity? So in this world, as people seek 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:39.840 to kind of break the boundaries of what crypto can 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.160 mean or what it can be represented for they're also 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.600 trying to find ways that crypto could be something more 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.840 appealing to the mainstream. And if we think about, you know, 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.800 the ways in which we engage with social media and 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.160 the role of influences in that um, we've been seeing 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.040 the rise of something called simp dows over the last 0:03:58.080 --> 0:03:59.920 few months and maybe even a year. Can I just 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:04.720 gonna stopulate? Did you say simple? Yes? So, to simple 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.400 means basically to be a fan of somebody, but in 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.720 typical Internet language, it's always pretty aloaded, and so simping 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.680 generally happens from a male fan to a female influencer 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.440 who is considered to be quite beautiful. And so in 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.760 this world of simpows, some female influencers are using the 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:26.360 mechanics of crypto and these miniature organizations to basically allow 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.120 a bit more of a developed relationship between them and 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.640 their fan base. The fans can contribute to the tao, 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.479 contribute to the US's reputation, deciding on what projects she 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.160 should take on or not, but then in return they 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:41.320 might gain something in the form of a reward like 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.800 a crypto token or an n f T, which they 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:45.240 can then used to kind of give back to the 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:49.560 community again, it becomes like a little circle of financial value. 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:51.599 I guess you could call it. So is this like 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.159 only fans on the blockchain? I mean you could consider 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.720 it that slightly. There are some dows that have been 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.520 set up that are slightly sexual in sure, if that's 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.320 what we think of as only found his main business model. 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:05.880 So and there are even dolls that have been set 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:10.479 up to honor female influences without that person's permission or knowledge. 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.120 One of the most prominent ones that was reported on 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.520 by Vice not long ago is one in tribute to 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.280 Belle Delphine, who is known as a gamer girl, and 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:24.040 she very famously tried to set off her bathwater adoring fans, 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:26.279 and as far as we know, she was not involved 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.360 in that because at the time anyway, she had been 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.200 offline from the Internet for about a year. But there 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.200 are also, you know, versions of these dolls that don't 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.320 involve anything of a sexual nature. So one of the 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.360 prominent ones that I spoke to for um this story 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.719 was a dow belonging to an influencer called Irene Zoo, 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:46.560 and in her dow, she mainly just uses it as 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.600 a way to interact with her fans, on a more 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.640 unique and direct level than she'd been able to previously 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:53.880 in Instagram, where she found that d ms are pretty 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.400 inefficient in your reporting. In the story that you wrote 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.400 about this, one of the mean characters, or otherwise I 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.159 supposed they were playing two characters at once, is someone 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:08.159 named Eric Wall who has a SIMP dow as we've 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.479 discussed under the name of Erica Wall. Can you see 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.599 more about this? Yes, So, Eric Wall is the chief 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.520 investment officer at a crypto asset fund. But he's also 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.640 a pretty big personality on crypto Twitter as we call it. 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.640 He's got more than eighty thousand followers, and he's known 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:27.840 for being kind of a bit of an expert on 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.640 all things crypto and therefore tends to get into full 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.479 online disputes with people over the mechanics of krypto and 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.039 blockchain mechanics. But one thing that he found over the 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.720 last few years is that occasionally, when somebody wanted to 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.200 make fun of him, they would photoshop him in a 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.400 picture of a woman, so they'd give him, you know, 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.679 long hair and mascara and breasts and all the rest, 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.440 And eventually he said he that one of those pictures 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.960 was good enough that he decided to take that picture 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.560 for himself and reclaim it. And he had been advising 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.800 dows like Irene's for quite a while, and so he 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.320 started Arikadao as, as he said, a way to kind 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.920 of model out how easy it could be to set 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.960 up one of these symptows for Instagram influences, and in 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.880 his mind, I think a use it as a way 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.920 to kind of encourage more influences to take up this 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:20.400 this mechanics and make blockchain more mainstream, but be raise 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.080 his own influence um and find more ways to engage 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.480 with the people who interact with him online. Now that 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.160 there's something that you said about the fans that I 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.040 that I want to point out because I feel like 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.320 there's a central tension here, which is the people who 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.320 were following him online. We're trying to make fun of 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.640 him by portraying him as a woman, which, let's be clear, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.760 is a super sexist thing to do, right, like the 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:42.720 the idea that the worst thing you could do to 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.080 a man is make him look like a woman. M hm, 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.880 And so okay, fine, like you, Crypto represents all of 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:52.880 the dysfunction of society because it is a part of 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.280 society as always. But he then is like, I'm just 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:58.080 gonna I'm going to lean into this, ha ha, I'm 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.360 going to reclaim this. I'm going to mon as high 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.360 is this. Has he gotten any kind of support or 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:07.960 criticism in either direction from this, almost like costly? Yeah, 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.720 So I think you'd expect there to be some negative backlash, right, 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.960 You'd expect there to be some backlash to the fact 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.880 that a man is portraying himself as a woman online 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.640 and creating some sort of monetary flow around that, whether 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:21.840 or not he decides to use it for personal gain, 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.800 personal profit or not. But actually, he said though there 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.760 was on some level of a bit of confusion from 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:30.560 some people as to why he would set up a 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.280 dow in the name of Erica. Most people thought it 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.800 was funny. Most people weren't on the joke, and most 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:37.760 people thought, you know, if I want to contribute to this, 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.600 I can. But he started then using the persona as 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.680 a way to bring attention to causes like the plight 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.200 to Ukraine and how you could donate to that with crypto, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.520 and also again bringing more attention to some of the 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.160 work that he'd been doing with other simp dows, like 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:56.880 irenes so in essence, while there was some expectation of 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.880 a negative reaction, it wasn't necessarily what he told me 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.600 is what he got back. But there are folks and 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:05.800 you you didn't include these examples in your story who 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.080 are not necessarily as transparent about what they're doing, not 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.760 necessarily encryptal, but in other sort of formats like live 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:15.280 streaming or streaming games, who are also engaging in this 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.440 kind of gender performance. Yeah. So there is a trend 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.480 that is very, very popular and still ongoing in places 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:26.240 like YouTube and Twitch, where sis men will dress up 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.959 as women and while the people who are watching their 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.760 streams or their videos are in on the joke. They'll 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.240 often go on platforms like amigle, which is a site 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.240 that randomly assigns you another person over video chat to 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.480 talk to and pretend to be a woman. Everybody who's 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.880 watching knows what's going on, like you know, in the 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.240 background when they're watching these videos, but the person they're 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.320 talking to is being duped, and and therein lies. I 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.280 guess the humor or the attraction and the world of 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.880 simptows is in some ways that you know, there are 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:56.960 always going to be people who are coming to something 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.640 like eric Odow, what the dow that Erica has set 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.760 up and not know who he is, and not know 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.920 who that person is behind the photoshop damage in front 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.520 of it. He even went to like a recent Bitcoin 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.200 conference with Eric Odoa as his name um and has 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:15.440 used things like voice modulators on podcast to appear as 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.400 Erica previously. But in essence, I guess that the message 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.760 that he was pushing is that that isn't his intention. Well, 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:24.599 you know, we all know that intentions always leads to 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.120 fantastic outcomes. So thank you very much, Emily. That was 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.200 a very interesting story and I appreciate you taking the 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.760 time to share it with our audience today. Thanks for 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:37.760 having me. You can find more of Emily's reporting on 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:41.240 the Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg dot com and follower on 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.319 twit her. She's at Emily J. Nicole. That's n I 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:52.000 CEO l L. We'll be right back with more from 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:56.359 Florence Smith Nichols about the ethical implications of gender fluidity 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:08.160 in a DOW universe. In the metaverse, you can be 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:13.680 anyone or anything you want to be. Now that we 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.319 have more an idea about how the dows work, I'm 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.480 going to turn to Florence Smith Nichols to give us 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:20.920 a little bit more insights on the moral and ethical 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:26.760 implications of gender fluidity and the blockchain. Florence, such a 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.400 pleasure to have you in the studio today, virtually or otherwise. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.359 Thanks so much for having me. You are a specialist 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:39.520 in some very very interesting areas of research, and you know, 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:44.199 our audience just heard from Emily who interviewed you for 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:48.119 a story about gender presentation and crypto and the blockchain, 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.040 and I'd love for you to say a little bit 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.840 more about what you've encountered in the realm of online 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.439 gender performance. I know now we're talking about kind of crypto, 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.880 the metaverse, the blockchain, but people ex perimenting with gender 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:04.920 expression online and in kind of a virtual context has 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.920 been happening really sort of, I think as long as 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:14.120 those places have existed, And certainly my kind of expertise 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:18.120 is particularly in video games and my favorite that's yeah, 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.920 that's something that I think you here, for example, in 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.720 the trans community sort of like countless stories of people 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.800 saying that the first time I really started to experiment 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:32.679 with kind of a different gender expression was through like say, 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.040 choosing a different avatar in a video game or something 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.160 like that, because it represents sort of like a safe 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:41.440 space to do. So when you were talking to Emily, 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.960 one of the things that I found interesting that she 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.840 reported in the context of the conversation was about how 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:52.520 the pandemic was a moment for people to be able 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.240 to do more of this kind of exploration in a 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:59.319 crypto context or otherwise Can you say some more about that? Yeah, So, 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:01.839 I think it's really interesting that it seems to have 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.600 been this kind of you see this trend of people 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.120 discovering kind of new aspects about themselves that maybe they 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.240 just didn't feel that they had the time to do 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:16.320 so before. And I wonder if, especially because a lot 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.240 of our interactions just had to be online by necessity, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.120 and because online interactions allow you to potentially kind of 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:26.839 play around with your identity, whether that can be a 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.360 something right as simple as even oh you change your 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.000 Twitter profile picture, right, And a lot of this conversation 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.880 around crypto and things like meme stocks really really hit 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.040 the mainstream during the pandemic, right, so at least the 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:44.520 time lines were overlapping. And as part of that, as 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:49.160 you as you've discussed with Emily, previously was this kind 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:54.560 of distinction between I suppose, a sincere exploration in the 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.160 way that you're describing of people, you know, finding out 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:02.040 who they really were, and a more cynical, potentially performance 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:07.760 for some other motivation or game or gain. Where in 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.320 the what we call the simple Dowel context, do you 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.439 see that spectrum? I feel like that this kind of 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.840 trying to draw a line between people, yeah, kind of 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.720 genuinely exploring the identity versus perhaps yet what you would 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.680 see as a more cynical kind of way of trying 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:31.680 to exploit a kind of performative identity is really tricky 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.040 because especially from an outside perspective if you don't know 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.120 the people involved. But it's the more kind of cynical 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.480 examples that hurt or kinds of people, especially trans people. 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.520 You know, A big part of transphobia is people being 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.840 accused of being fake, right, right, not just pretending, so 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.480 you can see how Yeah, it's a really difficult topic. 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.080 But I think with the simp dows specifically, I mean 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.480 even just in the name, I guess that it was 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.200 kind of revealing, right, It kind of kind of it 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.720 tells you what kind of level that's at, and it's 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:07.480 something that's fill I guess it's kind of generalization, but 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.000 I guess for the male gays in a very particular way, 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.000 and it's not about sort of an individual exploring their identity. 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.480 It's a group kind of around this kind of avatar 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:23.280 in order to potentially leverage getting more money out of people. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:27.680 I guess essentially in the context of you know, video games, 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:31.480 the metavers and communities, are you seeing any spaces where 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.680 it's more how should I say, supportive or constructive of 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.240 gender exploration compared to maybe what we're seeing in crypto 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.880 I think vrchide. Yeah, I would probably from what I've 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:48.240 seen where there seems to be um kind of just 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:52.040 a general sense of people being very welcoming about people 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:56.080 um kind of exploring their gender. Although at the same time, 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.160 I will say, from what I've seen, like, for example, 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.040 you get a lot of people who have the kind 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:06.120 of stereotypical like anime girl kind of after which you know, 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:12.240 you get very very large Yeah. Um. And that's kind 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.200 of interesting because apparently the reason why that is is 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.720 when m R chat was just kind of getting started up, 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:22.480 a load of people sort of import a load of 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:26.120 character models from a particular anime game, and they were 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:28.440 a much higher quality than any of the others, so 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.440 that's why people use them. So it's just kind of 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.720 ended up kind of being a trend because of that. 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.680 But that's that's interesting because then you get a lot 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.440 of people who say, well, actually, I just feel really 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.720 comfortable wearing this avatar or through having you know, kind 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:46.880 of tried this out for a while, I realized things 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.040 about my gender that I didn't know before. Um, so 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.720 it seems like, yeah, from what I can see, there's 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.000 definitely a lot of space exploration there. But again, like 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.160 I suppose, it's like any online space right where you 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.920 maybe have to be careful where you are because I 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.000 think if you're kind of like a public sort of 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.680 lobby space, you can meet anyone right who could just 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:14.119 be obnoxious or potentially very rude. Well, if it's if 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.600 it stops at rudeness, that would be a better better 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:18.800 degree than some of the online harassment that we see 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:22.200 in other places. So thank you so much, Florence. I 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.920 really appreciate you joining us today. Thank you. You can 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:32.000 find Florence on Twitter there at Florence s n. On 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.360 the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. So Rare is one 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.560 of several companies attempting to take the idea of collectibles 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.520 like baseball cards and bring them into a more digital context. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.119 In me so Rare announced a partnership with Major League 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:49.760 Baseball here in the US, and they announced Serena Williams 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:51.840 was going to be a member of their advisory board. 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.119 Why is this company betting so big on sports? Do 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.240 collectibles even need to be on a blockchain? And will 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.159 baseball players benefit from that needure leaked deal. To explore 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.080 these questions and more, I'll talk to Bloomberg reporter Hannah 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:13.359 Miller and to Sarrere's own CEO, Nicola Julia. I'm Stacy 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.960 Marie Ishmael, and this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.920 from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.360 I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.800 or wherever you get your podcasts. Email your questions, comments, 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.760 or suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:34.439 net and you'll find us on Twitter at Crypto. The 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.840 supervising producer of this episode is Vicky ver Galina. Our 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.920 producer is Mohammed Baruk. Associate producer is Zanab Sudiki Desta 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.360 wonder At is our Engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron. 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:47.919 Bloomberg's head of podcasts is Francesca Levi.