1
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,320
Speaker 1: Beat. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough.

2
00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:26,279
Speaker 1: You're listening to Software Radio Special operations, military news and

3
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:44,159
Speaker 1: straight talk with the guys in the community. Good morning, everyone,

4
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Radio, Software Radio on Time on Target.

5
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,959
Speaker 1: I'm your host this morning, Steve bals Ruri. But we

6
00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 1: have two very important and exciting guests with us. We

7
00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:02,360
Speaker 1: have Sean spots Off obviously from software dot com, but

8
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 1: we also have John david Man and if you uh,

9
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,760
Speaker 1: if you recognize the name but can't quite put a

10
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,640
Speaker 1: face to it, that's because John has been a collaborator

11
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,640
Speaker 1: with our own Brandon Webb for several years, and we're

12
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,039
Speaker 1: gonna get into all of that because they've written a

13
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,040
Speaker 1: new book called Steal Fear. It can be found on

14
00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,120
Speaker 1: steel Fear dot com. And we're gonna have an interview

15
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,560
Speaker 1: with him. He's on the line with us right now,

16
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 1: so we're gonna start it off. Sean. John, welcome to

17
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,759
Speaker 1: the podcast, and Sean take it away. Thank you. Steve.

18
00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,280
Speaker 1: Joining us today all Software Radio is John david Man,

19
00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,160
Speaker 1: who is the co author of Steel Fear, which he

20
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: wrote with softwarep editor in chief and founder of Brandon Webb.

21
00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:50,920
Speaker 1: John is the author of some twenty eight books and

22
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 1: business and leadership studies. He began his writing collaboration with

23
00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 1: Brandon with The Red Circle of New York Times bestseller,

24
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,240
Speaker 1: and since then he and Brandon have worked together route

25
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,640
Speaker 1: six other books, the latest of which is a thriller,

26
00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 1: Steel Fear, which is Suddenly aircraft Carrier. Abraham Lincoln. John

27
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 1: grew up in New Jersey, was the son of a

28
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,720
Speaker 1: professor of music, and as himself an accomplished Chellaston composer,

29
00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,480
Speaker 1: began winning awards and recognition for his musical talents as

30
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 1: a teenager. By the age of seventeen, he and a

31
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 1: friend had started their own high school called Changes Incorporated,

32
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,480
Speaker 1: and he managed to get graduates placed in colleges like

33
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 1: Harvard and Yale, and then went on to teach at

34
00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,120
Speaker 1: the school himself. Um. John and I worked together on

35
00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,600
Speaker 1: Steel Fear. I did some research for him on the book,

36
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,600
Speaker 1: and uh, we're here today to talk about John's career

37
00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,959
Speaker 1: and about writing Steel Fear. Is this is first four

38
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,520
Speaker 1: into the thriller genre. And John, welcome to the show.

39
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:46,960
Speaker 1: It's good to be here and listen. I've all I've

40
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 1: also been a follower of Soft rep since it started.

41
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,440
Speaker 1: It was a twinkle in Brandon's eye. Remember him sending

42
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,640
Speaker 1: me an email back in I don't know two thousand nine,

43
00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,120
Speaker 1: two dozen ten, something like that, saying I got this

44
00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,639
Speaker 1: idea for a blog, so it's fun to be here

45
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,840
Speaker 1: this end. How did you meet Brandon? You know, it

46
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 1: was right after Captain Phillips, that whole thing with the

47
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 1: three Navy Seal snipers that caught the world's attention. Everybody

48
00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,520
Speaker 1: was glued to see and then watching these you know,

49
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,240
Speaker 1: these snipers like synchronized swimmers pop up up three shots

50
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,440
Speaker 1: and it's a famous iconic piece of newsreel. Right. And

51
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 1: my literary agent was watching this on television, was watching

52
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,600
Speaker 1: Don Lemon, I think, or somebody interviewing a guy who

53
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,280
Speaker 1: had trained Navy Seal snipers talking about what that training involved.

54
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,600
Speaker 1: And she turned to her sister was watching TV with her,

55
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,440
Speaker 1: and said, I want that guy as a client. Again,

56
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,280
Speaker 1: I have that guy as a client. And three days

57
00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 1: later that guy walked into her office and said, I

58
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,800
Speaker 1: need an agent. I want to write a memoir. Brandon

59
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 1: was yeah. So she they wrote to me and said, look,

60
00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,480
Speaker 1: I know this isn't what you do. I was, you know,

61
00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 1: writing nonfiction and I was writing my leadership. I was

62
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 1: writing about you know, very nice, pleasant, uh civilian things, right,

63
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,960
Speaker 1: the military was not my genre. And she said, this

64
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,360
Speaker 1: is what you do. But got this guy is client

65
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,560
Speaker 1: who's got this interesting story and he needs a he's

66
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 1: a good writer himself, but he needs, you know, really

67
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 1: a really sharp writer to work with him. And I

68
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 1: read a page Brandon had written and said, Ship, I

69
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 1: have got to do this. I gotta do this. Um.

70
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,800
Speaker 1: So I said, yeah, I'm in no matter what, and

71
00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,680
Speaker 1: we clicked. We started corresponding. UM. And it's funny because

72
00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,440
Speaker 1: we have completely different backgrounds. You know, Brandon obviously he's

73
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 1: got his military background. I got you just read part

74
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,960
Speaker 1: of my stuff. I'm a cellist. He's a sniper. It's

75
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,440
Speaker 1: a little different, and uh, but we clicked like immediately.

76
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 1: I think we had some similar values around work ethic,

77
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:54,239
Speaker 1: around excellence, around almost an obsession for excellence, um, and

78
00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of other things, which is we just clicked

79
00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,920
Speaker 1: and we've been working together ever since. It's been a decade.

80
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 1: I could I could see where the the kind of

81
00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 1: obsession with doing it right between being a navy steel

82
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,080
Speaker 1: and a cellist would be very similar. Um, you started

83
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,320
Speaker 1: you grew up in New Jersey. Where in New Jersey? Yeah,

84
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,720
Speaker 1: right in Central Jersey, about an hour outside Manhattan. My

85
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,000
Speaker 1: dad had an office in Manhattan. He had conducted, he

86
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,839
Speaker 1: edited a choral review and performed in Manhattan. So I

87
00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,560
Speaker 1: was in and out of New York City my whole

88
00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,840
Speaker 1: life as a kid. And I am yes, it's true,

89
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,840
Speaker 1: I'm a Jersey boy. Was it a punishment for him

90
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:34,679
Speaker 1: to give you the cello? I mean that thing is huge?

91
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,839
Speaker 1: Was a kid, It's weird that kind of play the

92
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 1: flute something it's easier to carry to school. Why do

93
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,760
Speaker 1: I play the cello? I started out on the violin.

94
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,679
Speaker 1: I am a musical family. My my older brother played violin,

95
00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,960
Speaker 1: and he's he graduated to base. He he gravitated really

96
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,240
Speaker 1: to base and bas soon and he still plays based

97
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,680
Speaker 1: in a symphony. And one day in junior high, I

98
00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,599
Speaker 1: had this idea that if I played the cello, I

99
00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,040
Speaker 1: could make faces at my friends while I was playing,

100
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,400
Speaker 1: which you can't do with the violin. So I that's

101
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:11,640
Speaker 1: that's my story. Yeah, I wanted to play I'll be sorry,

102
00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,040
Speaker 1: that's hilarious. So, um, you guys wrote the red circle.

103
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 1: It becomes any other times bestseller, and then you actually

104
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,360
Speaker 1: kind of get into the business side of books too.

105
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 1: You do books on leadership and stuff like that with Brandon,

106
00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,040
Speaker 1: like Mastering Fear and and The Killing School, which is

107
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,520
Speaker 1: actually a book about leadership and training and things like that,

108
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,919
Speaker 1: and then you and then you get kind of we

109
00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,640
Speaker 1: get what it's seven books to you, that's right. And

110
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,560
Speaker 1: now we have Mastering Fear, which was your first first

111
00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,919
Speaker 1: floor into the Throwers. And you did a lot of

112
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,040
Speaker 1: research for this bookcause I remember helping you do that.

113
00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 1: Um was it was it a daunting task? I mean,

114
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,320
Speaker 1: I guess Brandon and you kind of came up with

115
00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,039
Speaker 1: the plot. It goes way back for years in terms

116
00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,080
Speaker 1: of when this this story actually opens. It's based on

117
00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,120
Speaker 1: real life incidents. Yes, first of all daunting. Yes, it

118
00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,000
Speaker 1: felt like I've been climbing lovely little hills my whole

119
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,320
Speaker 1: life and suddenly I'm on Mount Everest, you know, with

120
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,280
Speaker 1: with a flimsy mask. Um. So yeah, let's tell the

121
00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,200
Speaker 1: story first, I mean of how we got here with

122
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,880
Speaker 1: this because it is based, like you said, on an

123
00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 1: experience Brandon had. I'll make this short, but Brandon was

124
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,680
Speaker 1: actually stationed on the link in back in that He

125
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,400
Speaker 1: was not yet a seal as his pre buds. He

126
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,320
Speaker 1: was a rescue swimmer as they are in sonar operator

127
00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,280
Speaker 1: station with it with a helicopter unit. And he did

128
00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,600
Speaker 1: a six month tour Westpac on the on the Lincoln.

129
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,400
Speaker 1: This is right around the time that they were first

130
00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 1: integrating women in a major way on on on military vessels,

131
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,880
Speaker 1: and so the first generations of combat pilots. Carol Holt

132
00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 1: Green had just crashed and died off the Lincoln deck

133
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 1: like six months or so before Brandon stepped foot on

134
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,800
Speaker 1: that deck. So this is in the in the early

135
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,280
Speaker 1: days of that Titanic culture shift of women in the

136
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 1: Navy on boats, and there was a serial predator on

137
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 1: the ship. It was the strangest, weirdest, creepiest thing there

138
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 1: was this guy. Presumably he was never caught, because he

139
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 1: was a guy who would sneak into the women shower

140
00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,560
Speaker 1: area and flip off the lights and then go in

141
00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 1: and molest somebody and then run. And he's happened over

142
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 1: and over like half a dozen, seven, eight times, and

143
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:26,240
Speaker 1: it cast kind of a call of of terror of

144
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 1: a sort, like how a low level terror on the

145
00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,720
Speaker 1: whole ship. And Brandon had a good friend, the helicopter

146
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 1: pilot named Mona at the time that he remembers talking

147
00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 1: with her about this, And there is a helicopter pilot

148
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,719
Speaker 1: named Monica on in Steel Fear, a major character who

149
00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,200
Speaker 1: is loosely based on her. Um And they never caught

150
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 1: the guy, and Brandon thought at the time, man, what

151
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,559
Speaker 1: if these were murders? So that planted the seed for

152
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 1: the story. And when we started talking in two thousand

153
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,040
Speaker 1: nine about Red Circle, one of our first conversations, he said, Hey,

154
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,160
Speaker 1: would you ever be interested in writing a novel like

155
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,760
Speaker 1: a thriller about a serial killer and an aircraft carrier?

156
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:10,200
Speaker 1: And I said, what me a novel? Damn, yeah, let's

157
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 1: do that. It took ten years before we could do it,

158
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,720
Speaker 1: and it was. One reviewer said it took them ten

159
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,319
Speaker 1: years to get all the all the approval past the Pentagon.

160
00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 1: Well that's not true. I don't know where she made

161
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,960
Speaker 1: that up. There was no no Pentagon review in this book.

162
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,440
Speaker 1: It's fiction. Um, but that would but that would be

163
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,400
Speaker 1: entirely believable of the Pentagon actually for something to take

164
00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 1: you know, it would be And we did it, and

165
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,160
Speaker 1: we did it for a few of our other books.

166
00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,440
Speaker 1: For among Heroes and the Killing School. You know, we

167
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,480
Speaker 1: we did that d D review and it was a bear. Um.

168
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,400
Speaker 1: I took out a lot, but it took out some.

169
00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,080
Speaker 1: But anyway, Uh, we went through, like you said, we

170
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,000
Speaker 1: did Red Circle, we did several other books that were

171
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,080
Speaker 1: really memoir type books, in the course of which I

172
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,040
Speaker 1: got to know Brandon's life almost as well as if

173
00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,439
Speaker 1: it were my own. I mean, I know so much

174
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,040
Speaker 1: about that guy's history is personal, his professional, his military. Um.

175
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 1: But I also you know, one of our books, called

176
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,200
Speaker 1: Among Heroes, tells a story of eight seals who are

177
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,240
Speaker 1: all gone now, you know, from from Glenn Doherty to

178
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 1: Chris Kyle to David all all kinds of people that

179
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 1: Brandon met in the course of his career in the military.

180
00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 1: And while writing the book, I talked to like four dozen,

181
00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 1: five dozen people his teammates, their teammates, their siblings, their parents,

182
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,400
Speaker 1: their instructors, and it's it was like getting to know

183
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 1: sort of the entire seal community, uh, really intimately in

184
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,480
Speaker 1: a way that you that you that the reporter or

185
00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,120
Speaker 1: a biographer gets to know somebody. So by the time

186
00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 1: we hit Steel Fear, I felt like an absorbed a

187
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,040
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of that culture. What I didn't know was

188
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,320
Speaker 1: the was the ship and that's you know, that's where

189
00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 1: you helped out big time for listeners. I gotta say

190
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,480
Speaker 1: a Sean maybe modest about this, but he was. He

191
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 1: had a huge part in helping me get that right

192
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,640
Speaker 1: because he got me. First of all, he got me

193
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,200
Speaker 1: onto the Lincoln physically, which was fantastic. And he also

194
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,679
Speaker 1: just went through the manuscript and corrected a thousand things

195
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,040
Speaker 1: and made suggestions and had ideas and said, yeah, this

196
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,840
Speaker 1: might work this way, but it would more likely work

197
00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,840
Speaker 1: that way. Um, there's a point where there's a big

198
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 1: fight between the commandmaster chief and the captain. And I

199
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,160
Speaker 1: went to Sean and said, what would what would that

200
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,280
Speaker 1: be like if these two guys had an argument? And

201
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,560
Speaker 1: he he took me through that like a thread through

202
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,320
Speaker 1: the eye of a needle, so that we we got

203
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:41,200
Speaker 1: I think we really got that right. Military readers, man,

204
00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,000
Speaker 1: are the pickiest readers in the world. And I mean

205
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,600
Speaker 1: that as a compliment. If you get the calib caliber

206
00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,000
Speaker 1: of a bullet wrong, or if you get the form

207
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 1: of address from one person to another wrong, if you

208
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,600
Speaker 1: get any piece of the culture wrong, they're on you man,

209
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,280
Speaker 1: like like it's in Samalia, you know, you guys gotta

210
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,640
Speaker 1: get it right. So, yeah, there was a lot of research.

211
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,680
Speaker 1: Well in in the navy you're talking about, you know,

212
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,640
Speaker 1: they say the Navy has traditions and the the army

213
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,880
Speaker 1: has what is it. The Navy is traditions, the army

214
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,040
Speaker 1: has something else I'm trying to recall. And then they

215
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 1: said the Air Force has habits. So but but the

216
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 1: Navy has a culture that is the state in its

217
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,880
Speaker 1: own and it's a social stratus layer. I mean, we

218
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,880
Speaker 1: talked a lot about about how they would talk to

219
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,840
Speaker 1: one another and and forms of address, and even the

220
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 1: way you replied nobody there was an invitation from the

221
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 1: captain to see brand was like, yeah, you wouldn't answer

222
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 1: him that way. He would say, you know, the captain

223
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 1: requests the pleasure of your company and is at his

224
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 1: mess and you know, like Brandon's responsibly, I don't have

225
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,760
Speaker 1: a uniform, you know, so it would be like that

226
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,120
Speaker 1: would be the first thing that would occur to your

227
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,680
Speaker 1: captains was, oh my god, I have the uniform. So

228
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,160
Speaker 1: it would be it would be that kind of a thing.

229
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 1: We were trying to put details in the book that

230
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,840
Speaker 1: someone had been in the military would say, Okay, this

231
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 1: is the way you think of these things. When they

232
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,319
Speaker 1: occur in the tell us about visiting the Lincoln, you'd

233
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,840
Speaker 1: get a you got a really interesting visit that they

234
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,839
Speaker 1: they they rolled off the red carpet for you. Yeah,

235
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 1: you know. There were There were three big events in

236
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,000
Speaker 1: the genesis of the book. There first was Brandon's experience

237
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,079
Speaker 1: and the seed of the story, which I told you about.

238
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,840
Speaker 1: The second was, we needed a hero who was a mess.

239
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,440
Speaker 1: We needed a hero who was complicated, who was I

240
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,440
Speaker 1: wanted to write as our hero, somebody who was really

241
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 1: pretty screwed up. Um, sort of the opposite of what

242
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 1: sort of the Hollywood picture, uh, the squashbuckling navycy would

243
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,440
Speaker 1: be right. We wanted something real. So it took a

244
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,840
Speaker 1: couple of years to form the picture of this guy Finn,

245
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 1: who is completely devastated by trauma in his recent past

246
00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,680
Speaker 1: but also in his childhood, and the mystery of where

247
00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,320
Speaker 1: he comes from and what happened to him is a

248
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 1: big part of the mystery of the book. Um. But

249
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,920
Speaker 1: the third piece, the third big piece, was the ship.

250
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 1: I mean, the environment is so far in to most people,

251
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,160
Speaker 1: it's so alien. It's so strange, it's so difficult to

252
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,120
Speaker 1: to kind of comprehend. It's like a floating city is

253
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,320
Speaker 1: like the the Empire state building on its side, floating

254
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 1: in water, and it's about that size with six thousand

255
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,520
Speaker 1: people on board for six months, let's see. So it's

256
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,960
Speaker 1: um it's almost incomprehensible. And I felt like the ship

257
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 1: had to become almost like a character in the book um. So.

258
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 1: I spent a year, but but but three or four

259
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 1: months have really concentrated time within that year of researching

260
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 1: the carriers and the Lincoln particularly like like mad Um,

261
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 1: spent thousands of dollars in books, watching videos on all

262
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,640
Speaker 1: kinds of military websites. I dug out the yearbook of

263
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,160
Speaker 1: Brandon's actual UH deployment in and got pictures of him

264
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 1: and his teammates, you know, when they were like six

265
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 1: years old and stuff. It was it was really really

266
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,480
Speaker 1: steeping myself in that there's a there's a moment. There's

267
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 1: a moment in chapter two in the book where um,

268
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,080
Speaker 1: there's a story a quick reference to a story about

269
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,480
Speaker 1: two brothers who deployed on the same carrier, and from

270
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 1: the day they leave until the day they return, six

271
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 1: months later. They never see each other once, they never

272
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 1: crossed paths, and they're deployed in the same carrier. Um

273
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 1: and one. I stuck it in as a way as

274
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 1: shorthand to try to convey to people how immense the

275
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: thing is. And here's the thing that's a true story.

276
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 1: All the little details in there, you know, they're all

277
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,280
Speaker 1: they all come from that that intense period of research. UM.

278
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 1: So at the end of all that, you get me

279
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 1: on the ship, which is really cool because that gave

280
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 1: me the chance to you know, kind of nail down

281
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:03,320
Speaker 1: and either confirm or or correct um. You know, everything

282
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,600
Speaker 1: I've done so far. I went to see the Intrepid

283
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 1: with Brandon when we started back at the beginning. Um.

284
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: And for those who don't know, the Intrepid is based

285
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 1: off here in New York City at Stationary. It's like

286
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,440
Speaker 1: a museum really, and it's it's a much older generation carrier.

287
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,320
Speaker 1: So the Intrepid does not equal the Lincoln. It's smaller,

288
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,440
Speaker 1: it's different, but but it's a carrier. So I kind

289
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,880
Speaker 1: of had had that in my background. Uh, But then

290
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,360
Speaker 1: I got on the Lincoln and so I flew down

291
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:35,280
Speaker 1: in January one January day, and they They treated me

292
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 1: like royalty. They were fantastic. I got to meet the cat.

293
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 1: Then I got to meet the CMC, the COMMANDMENTSR Chief uh,

294
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,920
Speaker 1: the Chief medical Officer. I was toured around the whole

295
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,040
Speaker 1: ship by a photographer and a bunch of a bunch

296
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,480
Speaker 1: of guys. It was. It was terrific um and I

297
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 1: learned a lot. You know, a lot of it was confirmation.

298
00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,840
Speaker 1: But you know, for example, one thing I got being

299
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,320
Speaker 1: on the carrier, I had this picture in my head

300
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,399
Speaker 1: of kind of long, straight carridors like you know you

301
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,280
Speaker 1: might see in like a submarine movie, or the kind

302
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,719
Speaker 1: of thing you see in the hoghwood. Uh, like in

303
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 1: an office building. Uh No, It's like there's nothing long,

304
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 1: there's nothing straight. It's that's why I try to describe

305
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,119
Speaker 1: it as like a hobbit Shire, a medieval village that

306
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 1: you had had no benefit of urban planning. You can't

307
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 1: go more than like six twelve ft before you judge

308
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,159
Speaker 1: left or you jar right, and it's it's really like

309
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,640
Speaker 1: a labyrinth. Um. So that learning the passageways, I mean

310
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 1: it's a mind boggling task. Um. And just the sheer

311
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 1: scope and the complexity and the seeming lack of coherence

312
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,040
Speaker 1: like like a spider. You ever seen those pictures where

313
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,959
Speaker 1: they do they have show spiders webs and then they

314
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 1: show you what happens when they give the spiders acid

315
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 1: like lsd Are and the spiders weave these like crazy

316
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,680
Speaker 1: crazy things. It is like that insion honey by Stoned

317
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,160
Speaker 1: Bees Well and it's uh, it is. It is definitely

318
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,160
Speaker 1: the first air craft care. I was aboard modernate craft cares,

319
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,440
Speaker 1: then mimics. That was in norfol And I remember, and

320
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,399
Speaker 1: I remember thinking, God, this is you don't remind me

321
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,400
Speaker 1: of It reminded me of the National Cathedral in Washington

322
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 1: because she walked into these huge soaring ceilings in the

323
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 1: hangar deck area and then since just step out of that,

324
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 1: you step into these little narrow passageways and alcoves, and

325
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 1: it's it's a lot of like a cathedral in a sense,

326
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,920
Speaker 1: as these big huge things and then all these narrow,

327
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 1: little winding passages that cut off and go nowhere sometimes

328
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,119
Speaker 1: um and and the I always tell people when they

329
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 1: say simmer board ship with it, like I said, Well,

330
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: the thing you don't forget it's the smell of a ship.

331
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 1: Navy ship has a smell. Let's see back in the day,

332
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 1: it was paint and fuel, oil and and coffee and

333
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 1: to echo and sweat all mingled together. It's actually kind

334
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,879
Speaker 1: of a sweet smell. You could blindfold of sever and

335
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 1: put them on a worship and need know where it was. Yes,

336
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 1: but every ship has that has that owner, and it's unique.

337
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 1: Just doesn't exist on any land base or any land facilities.

338
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 1: I remember you telling me that, man, I remember you

339
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 1: telling me that before I was on the ship, and

340
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 1: I and that's I put that in chapter two and

341
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,679
Speaker 1: it's right there because I wanted to jam in as

342
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 1: much sensory information. Um. And the trick to it, or

343
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: the I guess the craft to it, you could say,

344
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: is is to give the reader all this information without

345
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 1: them feeling like you're giving them a lot of information.

346
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 1: Because readers don't want to feel like they're going to school.

347
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 1: They don't want to feel like they're they're they're reading

348
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 1: an educational book. They're reading a story. Man. They want

349
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 1: to know, like what the hell happens next, So you

350
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 1: you want to give them as much information as you can,

351
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 1: but in a way that were the story is always

352
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 1: moving forward like a shark. Yeah. Yeah, so you met

353
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 1: the captain. So, I mean, they knew you were writing

354
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,480
Speaker 1: a book about a serial killer on an aircraft killer

355
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 1: and may have neglect had to mention the serial killing

356
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,639
Speaker 1: from it. So what was it like to meet the

357
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,160
Speaker 1: captain of of the Abraham Lincoln? Because you're talking about

358
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 1: a guy that's basically on his way to be an admiral.

359
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 1: His next job after this is he's going to be

360
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: an admiral. He goes from that too, unless you think,

361
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 1: unless he's ben got it in our story in which

362
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 1: came is not too much unless he runs on the

363
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 1: ground that actually happened. That actually happened. When I was

364
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 1: in the navy, the skipper the Enterprise ran her aground

365
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 1: coming into San Francisco Bay and there's you know, five

366
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 1: thousand people aboard the carrier. They've been in the West

367
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 1: West pack for nine months. The Enterprise comes back to

368
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 1: navy band is at the pier. There's like eight thousand,

369
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,080
Speaker 1: nine thousand people waiting to greet the ship, and she

370
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,879
Speaker 1: grinds up on the sandbar, so they send everybody hope.

371
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 1: It takes two days to get her off the bar

372
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 1: and finally get her to the pier. So it was like,

373
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: oh my god, the captain of this ship. You know,

374
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,160
Speaker 1: I don't remember how it deposed, but uh, he doesn't

375
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: actually bring the ship. Been pilot breaks the ship. And

376
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 1: there's a pilot breaks the ship. But the captain was

377
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: not on that bridge when that ship ran aground. He

378
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,159
Speaker 1: was dead, but I think he was on the bridge,

379
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: so it saved him. But I want to think the

380
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 1: other thing of ground issue as you come back after

381
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 1: so you met the captain, how did that is it?

382
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 1: It's a big issue, I mean, and you know, one

383
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: of the key things in the story I watched there's

384
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: a documentary, a ten hour documentary put up by Icon

385
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,639
Speaker 1: Productions called Carrier, and it's a documents the life of

386
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: a of a deployment on I think it's the George W.

387
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: Bush H W. Bush rather um, but it's it's the

388
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: same same class, right, So it's it was a great

389
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 1: research for me, and it's an amazing Uh, it's amazing documentary.

390
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 1: And I actually pulled pieces from that documentary that really

391
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 1: informed the book. But one of the things I took

392
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: away from the documentary was the relationship between the captain

393
00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: and his X, which was like ye, like brothers, practically

394
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: really interesting relationship. Interesting working relationship. Both the terrific terrific

395
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 1: guys could see this, but the way that they leaned

396
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 1: on each other and the and the bond that they

397
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: formed was really really fascinating. And one of the one

398
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 1: of the key elements in the book is their relationships

399
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 1: at the leadership level the books. In one article I

400
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: called Steal Fear a leadership parable disguised as a crime novel.

401
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: It's really it's really about leadership and the captain of

402
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 1: the Lincoln in our story. This is by way of

403
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: answering your question, because I met the captain. He was

404
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 1: at driven man, great guy, nothing like the guy in

405
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 1: the book. The captain in the book and his relationship

406
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: with his XO and his relationship with the master chief,

407
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: the command master chief. Um, they're all really dysfunctional, but

408
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: really dysfunctional in a credible way. Like we've all seen

409
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: these relationships. We've all seen this leadership. We've all seen

410
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: this kind of conflict in the chain of command that's

411
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: above us. So we don't have any any opportunity to

412
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: do anything about it. Right, That's what's going on, and

413
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: that's you could say, that's what creates the environment that

414
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: allows for the possibility of all the ship that goes

415
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: on these serial murders. Um, you know my contention, and

416
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: we never say it in the book. My contention is

417
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: if we had different leadership on that carrier all these

418
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: serial murders, that they would not that it would not

419
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: have happened, or at least they would not have continued.

420
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: It was a toxic environment. And that reflects something that

421
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: you know, Brandon and I wrote about in The Red

422
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: Circle about the difference between toxic environments and and healthy

423
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: environments and how much they stem from the quality of

424
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: the leadership. That's a very good point um. Leadership in

425
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,719
Speaker 1: the Navy, especially bordership is different, i think than another branches.

426
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: When we have a land based element with a change

427
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: of command that goes all you have to say a

428
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: four star general that can be reached my phone or

429
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: could get this car drive over in the base. A Navy,

430
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: a captain of a Navy ship is nearly a god

431
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: aboard that ship, and leadership in the Navy very much

432
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: is about a partnership between a variety of people in

433
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: leadership positions are all basically working to here on the

434
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: same page. And if you've got someone who's not on

435
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: the right page that it's it's like color and sand

436
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: into the crank case of the car. Everything else is

437
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: trying to work, but then you have this one thing

438
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: that is screwing everything up. But if that happens, that

439
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: happens on the bridge with the skipper, then you have

440
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: you could have some real, real problems. So so here

441
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: was the chance, here was the challenger, here was the task.

442
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: Here's what I wanted to try to do. Is in

443
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 1: the course of the book has four hundred sixty four pages,

444
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: it's a lot of runway there. In the course of

445
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 1: the book, you want to see the gradual breakdown of

446
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: the campaing because he does gradually breakdown, the gradual breakdown

447
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: of here relationship with the mattter Chief, the gradual breakdown

448
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: of the ship, I mean the ship itself itself starts

449
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: to break down. And also the gradual Finn the hero

450
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: is having this internal sort of gradual breakdown that culminates.

451
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: Oh that was interesting. Um, the culminates in in a

452
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: in a crisis. And so the whole the whole thing

453
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: is is a sort of study and disintegration while you're

454
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: while you're at sea. And then he's got to come

455
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: back Finn's Finn is the sumer oh yeah man, and

456
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: that he's got to basically pull himself together and and

457
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: deal with this situation, which was which was a really

458
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you reading this book, I'm not really

459
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: a crime thriller kind of genre guy, mostly rehistorical reference stuff,

460
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: but there were parts of that book that were very

461
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: hard for me to read, and especially some of the murders.

462
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm not squeamish at all. I've been in the blood,

463
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, I've been blood various guys of my life.

464
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: Never bothered me, but some of the things that that

465
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: we're in that book, in the Killer's mind Gate had

466
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: me just my skin crawling. So and I can't even

467
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: get either you or Brandon to cop to whose ideas

468
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: those were? Whose mind is that dark to come up

469
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: with some of these things, because it was it was

470
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: Some of those stuff was hard to read. Really wants

471
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: tell you a secret about how that works. And murders

472
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,239
Speaker 1: aren't all that grizzly. I mean they are a little bit,

473
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: but they're not. It's not like a lot of gore

474
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: and blood. But what I strove to do was the

475
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: people that end up getting killed is make you really

476
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: care about them before it happens. One reader said, be

477
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: careful because if you start caring about a character, you

478
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: know they're gonna get it. I'm not a statistic person, honest,

479
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: I promise. I just wanted to keep the story, keep

480
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: the story hopping. Yes, you're right. Empathy with the victims, yeah,

481
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: and you're helping. And your helplessness as a reader and

482
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: not being able to do anything about what's about to

483
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: happen to them was It was probably the source of

484
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: my own nice kind of thing. So if those are

485
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: those of you who are not normally thriller readers, read

486
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: this book because it's it's got some things that it's

487
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: an entertaining read for it to take you kind of

488
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: on that emotional lower coaster where you start you think,

489
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is the way this person is dying.

490
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: I yikes, And you feel helpless, but like you witness

491
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: to this point, you can't do anything about, which is

492
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 1: which is quite a feeling in that book. UM want

493
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: to I do want to say some are saved, not

494
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: everybody dies. Not everybody, you know, it would be a

495
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: much longer book than six thousand People I'll Die, and

496
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: would be a much longer book. But I also like

497
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: the plausibility of the story. I mean, there were you

498
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: and I talked a lot about that where I was like, no, no, no,

499
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: that won't that. You can't do that, that won't work.

500
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: You can't now that would have that would have the

501
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 1: sixth Day, the Navy flying out there in a helicopter.

502
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: So the thing that I thought you did really good

503
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: with is is pushing it to the edge but not

504
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: getting into the ridiculousness of some books where you're like,

505
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: that makes no sense. You know, you kept it in

506
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: the in the framework of the reality of that of

507
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: that it's never happened, but it could have. It could

508
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: has never happened, but it could. I wouldn't be surprised

509
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: if it gets read by guys that, you know, the

510
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: Naval Investigative serviceances, you know what you know, what are

511
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: we doing in case something like this happens a week?

512
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: Are we really ready to deal with? What would we do?

513
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: Because it's very hard to lockdown an aircraft carry we've

514
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: got six thousand people aboard and you've got eighty something

515
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: aircraft off like critical message for national security. You don't

516
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: just stop the world, So how do you do that?

517
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: And I think the master at arms Core. When do

518
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: we come up with like eighty guys or something that's

519
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: not a lot. It's not a big number. And they're

520
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: policing thousands of people? Um? And and are they trained

521
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: as I mean there are law force sponsors. But but

522
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: still can you do can you do an outopic in

523
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: the ship surgeon doing autopsica that's credible? Can you actually

524
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: build a case or something like the sound the carrier? Uh?

525
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: Do they have the kind of facilities and equipment that

526
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: you need to do forensic examination and crime? Uh? Not?

527
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: Generally most of the crimes and aircraft carriers. Somebody stole

528
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: something out of my locker exactly what's name, what's his name?

529
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: Punched me or fratdizing. Right, So when you get to

530
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: the major and you're right and like you say, sexual assaults, um,

531
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: but then you get this big thing going on where

532
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: you have people disappearing over word. Um. I really thought

533
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: you did a good job on the man overboard part

534
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: about what happens when the guy goes over the side,

535
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: because it's a big it's a big deal, and I

536
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: think it's an interesting glimpse. And do what actually happens

537
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: when somebody goes over the side, and how much the

538
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: effort is to basically try and get those get that

539
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: person recovered unless you have a mission that makes it impossible. Yes,

540
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: because then you have this calculus where they say, Okay,

541
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: we can't stop this entire carrier taskports for one guy

542
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: when we're in the middle of watching planes to do

543
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: this and cover that and handle this, We're gonna have

544
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: to move on. And there there is a point in that. Um.

545
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: They it does go to extraordinary lengths, but but it

546
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: does come down also to the to the mission needs

547
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: of that of that unit. UM. And my experience has

548
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: been with carrier goes to see they always lose a

549
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: couple of people. There's always a couple of fatalities. Yeah,

550
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: it's a dangerous environment. OSHA is exempt, a Navy is

551
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: is except pro motion regulations. So there's lots of places

552
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: to get hurt. Thanks following you you followed down a ladder,

553
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: you go off that, you get blowed off the side,

554
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: you step behind beyond jet engine and it blows you

555
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: off the deck. A lot of it slips and falls

556
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: and crush injuries. Something falls on the hugs them, something

557
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: is not secured, rolls across the deck and smashes them.

558
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: There's lots of places to get hurt, and they actually

559
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: have a they actually have a cooler to to keep

560
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: bodies h and basically in stasis until they bring them

561
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: home and bury them. Unless there's unless there's unless there's

562
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,239
Speaker 1: no body, unless there's no bodies. So, um, you've got

563
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: you're gonna be writing a sequel to this. What can

564
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: you tell us about Cold Cold Fears? The new book?

565
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: This was gonna be the sequel to this? Is that right? Yeah?

566
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: In the back of Steel Fear, I think we put

567
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: five chapters of the safe all the next book in

568
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: the series, which is Cold Fear, which takes place a

569
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: couple of months after the end of Steel Fear. And

570
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: I will just say, uh, it's in Iceland because you'll

571
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: read this if you read that part and uh, it's

572
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: it's Yeah, we're about three quarters of the way through

573
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: that now. That will come out in a year. It

574
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: would be very interesting. You think there'll be a third

575
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: attorney you planning on writing there's a that's the plan

576
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: so like in Indiana Jones kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, yeah,

577
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: we'll see, we'll see. That's that's the that's the trip

578
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: we're on. That's that's what we assume we got Finn's

579
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: Finn has got lots of room for lots of stuff

580
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: to figure out. I was gonna say they complicated. Maybe

581
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: Navy seals go so many places, there's so many different ways. Um,

582
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to be very interested to hear how you

583
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: have the plot line about all the de and he

584
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: had and he he has a lot of past to

585
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: untangled too. Yes, he's got a boulder following him, like

586
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: you know in Dana Jones, rolling behind him. He's got

587
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: coming be very interesting to see how you how you

588
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: clear on? Did you unwraps trauma? Did you take pictures

589
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: of the Abraham Lincoln? Yeah? Oh yeah, I did. You

590
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: know what we should do something with those? I think

591
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: it'd be very interesting for readers and stuff, right, yeah,

592
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: your pictures of the carrier, your impressions, because you basically

593
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons we got your board,

594
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: so that you can take pictures of the places and

595
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: get a feel for the scenes that are in the book.

596
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: The cat walks, the fan tail, the small stateroom that

597
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: that Finn was in, the mess room, you know, the

598
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: sick bay, all these different places where the where the

599
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: story takes place, so you can get your atmospherics right.

600
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: So it wouldn't let me in the armory. No, I

601
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: was in the bridge that I had got the brig

602
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: jittery abes, the coffee shop, uh what I call the

603
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: Lincoln Room, the Captain's Captain's uh sort of parlor, which

604
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: is all a depth down like like an actually Abraham

605
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: Lincoln's you know, ninety sentary room. Or that's actually accurate.

606
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: It was taken from the Spielberg movie set just where

607
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: we're describing the book. Um, you know, everything from the

608
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: fan tail to the hangar deck to the Finn's. A

609
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: little room we describe as a broom closet is actually

610
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: a room. It's actually a state room if you want

611
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: to call it that that I saw on the Intrepid.

612
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: It's a tiny little thing. And yes there is a

613
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: little tiny head right across the little hall. Right. So

614
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: every every compartment we described, every passageway, every location that

615
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: figures prominently in the book. Um, that's how it looks,

616
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: that's how it is. Did you get did you get

617
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: to see the quarterback? Because the quarterback could usually have

618
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: artifacts Abraham Lincolns, which is like almost a shrine to

619
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: the namesake. Yeah, well you see you see Lincoln memorabilia

620
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: all over the ship, you know, profiles and the number

621
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: seventy two plastered everywhere. CV two seventy two is the

622
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: number of the ship. Um, yeah, it's it's it's crazy.

623
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's so heavily branded. You wonder

624
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: if Lincoln's the state is like earning money on the

625
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: on the ship. Well, it's it's kind of on a

626
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: side of something worth to happen to the ship was

627
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: so she was sinking. It was actually a detail to

628
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: go and secure those items and get them off the ship.

629
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised not to the artifacts go down with

630
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: the ship. They used always a group of guys that

631
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: get their job to recover those objects and get them

632
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: into a life. But get off that get off the

633
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: ship with them if they can. So it's like those

634
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: relics are are important to the vessel. There there's a

635
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: religion two ships, as we used to say, there's a

636
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: religion that they're your home. There your home. They become

637
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: part of your identity. Um, you see yourself as a

638
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: as as a Lincoln sailor, you know, and and it's

639
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: and sometimes when guys leave a ship after a couple

640
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: of years, they sometimes a hard time adjusting to to

641
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: another vessel, which is which is kind of interesting. Um.

642
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: So the book is Steel Fear. It is out in

643
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: stores now. It can also be ordered on Amazon. Will

644
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: include a link in the podcast. UM, John David Man,

645
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: Steve Buster, and I thank you for for coming on

646
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: board Software Pritty on speaking yesterday's It's been a real

647
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: pleasure to talk. You can't wait to can't wait to

648
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: do it again. Great chance to thank you in person. Also,

649
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: Mr Sean, thank you pret shape that immensely before before

650
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: we let you go. John. Who's gonna play Finn when

651
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: they make this into a Deven Spielberg movie? Yeah, well,

652
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: you know we uh we did inc a contract a

653
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: deal with UM NBCUniversal through Peacock. They're streaming service that

654
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: they're they're developing. It's a development now as a as

655
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: a streaming limited series. So I don't have any kind

656
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: of a production calendar or you know, perspective dates on that,

657
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: but it's in development, which is Hollywood speak for who knows. Um. However,

658
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: it's they seem pretty serious about it. We've got a

659
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: fantastic producing partner on board who was involved in all

660
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: of the Born projects. Um so, that's pretty cool. And

661
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: he's got a fantastic writer who's developing the pilot right now.

662
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: In the pilot episode. Um so, we have no say

663
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: and who who's going to play who, but we know

664
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: that given the team we picked to do it, you know,

665
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: we we pitched it to Hollywood and we got like,

666
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: we got a handful of of of pretty serious bites

667
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 1: and we went through a selection process and the team

668
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: we've got is just ace. So whatever they do, it's

669
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: gonna be good. I can promise you that awesome. Um folks,

670
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 1: before we wrap this thing up again, you can find

671
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: this on steel fear dot com. We encourage all of

672
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: our readers and listeners out there to check this out

673
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: and to order the book. And you know, I'm gonna

674
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: put it in a plug from myself here because I

675
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: would like an autograph copy of this, so perhaps we

676
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: can arrange that to happen. But that happen. Yeah, Before

677
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: we let it everyone go, we want to read a

678
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: quick add If you want to get soft rep on

679
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: your phone, download our free mobile app to get easy

680
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: access to our articles podcasts, gear reviews, all perfectly formatted

681
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: to your device. Please subscribe to softwarep dot com to

682
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: get access to our library of e books and our

683
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: exclusive team room forms of content available on all your

684
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: Apple and Android devices. We want to thank everyone for

685
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: listening today. As always we without our listeners, soft reap

686
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: Radio doesn't exist, so thank you all for listening. Thanks

687
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: to Sean, who we don't usually get to get him

688
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: on the podcast very often, so that's fun. And obviously

689
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: thanks to our guests John David Man and please check

690
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: out steel fear dot com you've been listening to self

691
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: recreating