1
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,799
Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of

2
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,640
Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat and I

3
00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 1: am the host, and you guys are in for a

4
00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:25,040
Speaker 1: treat today. I am so excited about this conversation. Before

5
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,760
Speaker 1: I get into talking about our guests, I do want

6
00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,840
Speaker 1: to say really quick, remember that this podcast is not therapy.

7
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,280
Speaker 1: It's just a therapist hosting a podcast, and you know what,

8
00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 1: it might lead to therapy, but it's not. And now

9
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:38,280
Speaker 1: that we have out of the way, we can get

10
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,440
Speaker 1: back to why I'm excited for you guys to be

11
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,080
Speaker 1: able to finally hear this conversation. I've been itching to

12
00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:45,920
Speaker 1: get it out as soon as I had it and

13
00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 1: my guest, which I'm so grateful to have had. I'm

14
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,720
Speaker 1: so grateful to be able to have the conversation. Even

15
00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,280
Speaker 1: if that was a private conversation it wasn't for the podcast.

16
00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,080
Speaker 1: This was one of those where like this challenged and

17
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,520
Speaker 1: changed my life and I really just loved and it

18
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,160
Speaker 1: was a conversation with a freaking badass woman named Nabi

19
00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,880
Speaker 1: has who is the president of the Markup, which is

20
00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 1: a new investigative journalism startup. We talk all about that

21
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,680
Speaker 1: in the episode, so I'm going to let the conversation

22
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,920
Speaker 1: we have do the work there. But I want you

23
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,800
Speaker 1: guys to know before you walk into this, how freaking

24
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,399
Speaker 1: amazing this human is one you're going to get to

25
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,040
Speaker 1: know this because she's captivating and she's easy to understand,

26
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,840
Speaker 1: and she she has a presence and an energy that

27
00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,160
Speaker 1: you just want to hang out with her. Side note

28
00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,640
Speaker 1: like I want to be her friend. I quesse she

29
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,119
Speaker 1: lived in Nashville. If you ever come to Nashville, please

30
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,960
Speaker 1: call me. But she is such an intelligent, accomplished human

31
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 1: and also humble because you did not hear her talking

32
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 1: about how great she is in the episode. You just

33
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,440
Speaker 1: heard her being a human. But she has done a lot.

34
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,240
Speaker 1: She worked at BuzzFeed for a while. She was the

35
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,440
Speaker 1: vice president and associate general counsel at Busfeed and was

36
00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,840
Speaker 1: the company's first newsroom lawyer. She has been described as

37
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,880
Speaker 1: one of the best emerging free speech lawyers by Forbes.

38
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 1: She's worked at leading media law firms, and she has

39
00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:12,200
Speaker 1: worked on legal access issues at Quantamino Bay. She's represented

40
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,880
Speaker 1: asylum seekers in South Texas. She's counseled people on whether

41
00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,919
Speaker 1: to publish hacked materials, spoke about misinformation at the inaugural

42
00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 1: Obama Foundation Summit. She's incredible and for a lot of

43
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,440
Speaker 1: all of her work. She's been named forty under forty

44
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,160
Speaker 1: Rising Star by the New York Law Journal. She was

45
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,560
Speaker 1: a finalist for the Outstanding Young Lawyer of the Year

46
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,880
Speaker 1: Award from the International Bar Association, and she has in

47
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,840
Speaker 1: seventeen I mean, she is one award after award and

48
00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,080
Speaker 1: was named one of Forbes thirty under thirty. She holds

49
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 1: a law degree from Yale Law School, and she's just incredible.

50
00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 1: Like I'm not even naming all the awards because she

51
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,320
Speaker 1: had so many. And I just want you guys to

52
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,240
Speaker 1: know that before we go into this conversation, because she

53
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 1: is somebody that I want you to trust what she's

54
00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:58,680
Speaker 1: I want you to walk into this being able to

55
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,280
Speaker 1: really trust her. Now, I don't think you would even

56
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,880
Speaker 1: need to know that, because her presence is a very

57
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 1: just like captivating one, like I said, and I immediately

58
00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,360
Speaker 1: was like trusting her. But she's just freaking cool. She is,

59
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,600
Speaker 1: and she's like has a family and as a mom

60
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,920
Speaker 1: as a two year old, and she lives in New

61
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,120
Speaker 1: York and she's just great. So I'm excited about this conversation.

62
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,080
Speaker 1: We talk about social media, We talk about tech and

63
00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 1: how it sometimes is a scary world and how to

64
00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,880
Speaker 1: gain power and agency back. It is a I opening

65
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,679
Speaker 1: conversation has changed the way that I am looking at

66
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,640
Speaker 1: and approaching things in my life, and I just loved

67
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,640
Speaker 1: having it. And on that I was having a conversation

68
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,920
Speaker 1: with a friend today about Instagram and how I feel

69
00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 1: like sometimes it feels as though everybody is privy to

70
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,560
Speaker 1: all of our lives, like every part of our lives,

71
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,520
Speaker 1: because now we have the ability to share all of

72
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,280
Speaker 1: our life with everybody, and so I just feel like

73
00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,760
Speaker 1: this is a conversation that is is so needed and

74
00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 1: so special and so important, and it talks about how

75
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,720
Speaker 1: we can gain power from that feeling back again. And

76
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,280
Speaker 1: I'm excited to have this conversation so I can go

77
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,240
Speaker 1: back to it and remind myself. So I bet you

78
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,280
Speaker 1: guys can tell in the energy of my voice, like

79
00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 1: I am so excited to share this with you. So

80
00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop talking about it, and I'm going to

81
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,840
Speaker 1: let you guys hear my amazing conversation with Nabiha. Thank

82
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,400
Speaker 1: you for having this with me. You are incredible, And

83
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 1: for everybody else please enjoy. I hope that you are

84
00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,040
Speaker 1: just as captivated and inspired as I am. So here

85
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,720
Speaker 1: it is. Okay, well, welcome to the show. Thank you

86
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,120
Speaker 1: for having me. I am such a hyper fan, so

87
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,000
Speaker 1: I can't wait. Okay, Well, I love that because I'm

88
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,160
Speaker 1: a hyper fan of you. Um, And this is gonna

89
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,080
Speaker 1: be a conversation that I think is going to be

90
00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,159
Speaker 1: different than any one that I've had yet. And I'm

91
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 1: going to give you full disclosure. I understand about negative

92
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,480
Speaker 1: of anything that has to do with like the law

93
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 1: and a lawyer and that kind of stuff. And recently

94
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,040
Speaker 1: I had to hire a lawyer for some stuff I

95
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 1: should have done a long time ago, and it just

96
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,600
Speaker 1: is so confusing to me. But I feel like you're

97
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,400
Speaker 1: the kind of person who can help it makes sense.

98
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 1: I love breaking things down so and I love explaining things.

99
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,680
Speaker 1: And it's honestly, the law is confusing, and especially if

100
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 1: anything with free speech or tech or like privacy, it's

101
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,080
Speaker 1: confusing even for the lawyers. So we're going to do

102
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,640
Speaker 1: our best get into it. You've done a lot of

103
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 1: impressive things and exciting things that I want to hear about.

104
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,279
Speaker 1: I want us to full circle come and talk about

105
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,080
Speaker 1: the Markup. But I also know that you did a

106
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,960
Speaker 1: lot of things before that, including kind of what you

107
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,600
Speaker 1: were saying and working at buzzfeeds. I'm very interested in

108
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,000
Speaker 1: your history, what you were doing in BuzzFeed and all that,

109
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,599
Speaker 1: and then what brought you full circle. So can you

110
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 1: give us like a history of in the internutshell my life?

111
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 1: First things first, I grew up on the Internet in

112
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 1: a way that I should not have. My parents got

113
00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,040
Speaker 1: these a O L free CD thirty day c d s.

114
00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone else remembers those. We can

115
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,520
Speaker 1: get the lid c d's mailed to you. So you

116
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,120
Speaker 1: could have dial up modem internet through a O well,

117
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,240
Speaker 1: and I got that in second grade. And so I'm

118
00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,560
Speaker 1: just like totally unsupervised because my parents were like internet computer,

119
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,560
Speaker 1: this is educational. So I grew up loving the Internet

120
00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,280
Speaker 1: like I was with the kids would now call thick,

121
00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,160
Speaker 1: but that was not the word we used in the nineties. Um,

122
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 1: and I had never seen like bodies like mine except

123
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,920
Speaker 1: for on the Internet. I'd be like, oh, like, here's

124
00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,279
Speaker 1: all kinds of people, all kinds of shapes that I

125
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,760
Speaker 1: don't see on Self magazine or Vogue or certainly TV.

126
00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,280
Speaker 1: Or like anything in Orange County, California, where I grew up.

127
00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,599
Speaker 1: So I always loved the Internet. That's the journey that

128
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,360
Speaker 1: went on. Now. So when I, you know, I went

129
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,000
Speaker 1: to law school, I was so interested in how the

130
00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 1: Internet was changing these expectations of what the law prescribed

131
00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,159
Speaker 1: for like newspapers and TV. There's a whole new medium

132
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 1: that had needed whole new rules. So I went to

133
00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,400
Speaker 1: a law firm in New York Times and when the

134
00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,080
Speaker 1: opportunity came to go to BuzzFeed, it felt like someone

135
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: was saying, welcome, would you like to come to the Internet.

136
00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,080
Speaker 1: Do you want to be a lawyer for the Internet.

137
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,279
Speaker 1: And I was like, yes, I do. I've been waiting

138
00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,360
Speaker 1: for this since so thank you, Oh my god. But

139
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 1: what I what I also just heard you say is

140
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 1: when you were introduced to the Internet, it was like

141
00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,840
Speaker 1: a really safe, helpful tool. Yeah, I mean it was

142
00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 1: a wild It was definitely a wild wild West, right

143
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,640
Speaker 1: like early nineties. Internet through a O well had a

144
00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,880
Speaker 1: whole lot of stuff that I probably shouldn't have seen either.

145
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 1: But there was also it was like message boards. So

146
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 1: I used to go to this place called chick Click,

147
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 1: which does not sand as nefarious as the phrase sand Now.

148
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 1: It was a feminist message board that was just like

149
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,200
Speaker 1: all kinds of wonderful women talking about all kinds of

150
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 1: things in their life, like hey, my breasts are uneven.

151
00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,080
Speaker 1: One's bigger than the other, which is like all kinds

152
00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,120
Speaker 1: of things that Like I was the eldest girl in

153
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,960
Speaker 1: an immigrant household, Like I'd never heard this kind of stuff,

154
00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,000
Speaker 1: and so read this kind of stuff, right because everyone

155
00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,360
Speaker 1: was reading at that stage in the Internet, you weren't watching,

156
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,880
Speaker 1: And I think that's an important description. You'd see like pictures,

157
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 1: people post pictures of themselves and I'm like, okay, alright, alright,

158
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 1: it's normal to look that way. It's normal to be

159
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,400
Speaker 1: like this, it's normal to hear about feminism. And that

160
00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,720
Speaker 1: part was amazing. I guess it was new too, So

161
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 1: there was all this like craziness out there. There was

162
00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,080
Speaker 1: a ton of craziness, right, So and be reading something

163
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:21,600
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden be like, oh what did

164
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,040
Speaker 1: I just be? Oh no, well, I guess I remember

165
00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 1: when I was younger, all the pop ups that would

166
00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,720
Speaker 1: they were like I was like, wait, I didn't want that. Yes,

167
00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,040
Speaker 1: You're like, oh do not want that? Click x out

168
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,840
Speaker 1: x out I do not want this, but it somehow

169
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,640
Speaker 1: felt felt more organic and kind of unintentional when that

170
00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,319
Speaker 1: pop up would come up. And now you know, these

171
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 1: platforms feel very curated, and then it just kind of

172
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,720
Speaker 1: felt like turned a corner, saw something weird, turned that

173
00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,840
Speaker 1: corner again, like keep going yeah, okay. So then so

174
00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,439
Speaker 1: you got to BuzzFeed and you're like, I'm going to

175
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,880
Speaker 1: be a lawyer for the inner exactly what does that

176
00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,000
Speaker 1: even mean? It meant that I was around to answer

177
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,320
Speaker 1: or any kind of questions that people had. So and

178
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 1: people are like, hey, can I use this music in

179
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,240
Speaker 1: the background of a video? And I'm like, well, let's

180
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 1: think about what Madam Queenbiance might have to say about that.

181
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 1: The answer is no, she does not want you to

182
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,800
Speaker 1: use her songs in your video. But also really interesting

183
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,680
Speaker 1: things like when we had reporters who wanted to dig

184
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 1: into allegations of sexual harassment happening at schools, right and

185
00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,680
Speaker 1: they're like, I want to and this is before me too.

186
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 1: So you have these super talented reporters like just Testa

187
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 1: Katie Baker, who before the sort of me too movement

188
00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,560
Speaker 1: in the press, were like, how do we report on

189
00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,880
Speaker 1: what girls in schools are saying about their teachers and

190
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,320
Speaker 1: their principles. Knowing that we get the story wrong, the

191
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 1: school is going to sue us. How do we appropriately

192
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,560
Speaker 1: reach out to these students and like, you know, give

193
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,960
Speaker 1: them a microphone for their truth while also understanding the

194
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,360
Speaker 1: complications here. And so I got to advise on those

195
00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 1: kinds of stories too, which is really meaningful for me,

196
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,080
Speaker 1: and you know, hard national security stories like publishing all

197
00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 1: kinds of things about politics. But I was the My

198
00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,240
Speaker 1: job was to be the one that made sure people

199
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,760
Speaker 1: didn't get in trouble for speaking truth and the way

200
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,240
Speaker 1: they wanted to, which is really cool and also like

201
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,280
Speaker 1: that's kind of scary too. Yeah, I thought it was

202
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,200
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. I mean, it's really fun when

203
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 1: you work with reporters who you trust and you know

204
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,560
Speaker 1: where their heart is and you know where their head is, right,

205
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,280
Speaker 1: So if they want to make sure that the right

206
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,960
Speaker 1: people stories are getting to the Internet, it's honor to

207
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,040
Speaker 1: be able to help. Yeah. So there's this one part

208
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,120
Speaker 1: of of the Internet and all of the things that

209
00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,520
Speaker 1: have been given to us and offered and been able

210
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,240
Speaker 1: to be created for the good. Like it's an easier

211
00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,000
Speaker 1: way to access information. I talked about this all the time,

212
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 1: even with like TikTok and like Instagram, how that's changed.

213
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,800
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful and like podcasts like, I'm so grateful

214
00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,359
Speaker 1: that there is a way for people to get information

215
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,360
Speaker 1: that otherwise would never have, that we can be more

216
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,199
Speaker 1: educated and we can learn more and it can connect us.

217
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 1: But then there's also this space where it's like, wait

218
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,079
Speaker 1: a second, is this a conspiracy theory? Who's brainwashing us?

219
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 1: Is this information true? Why should I believe this person?

220
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 1: Anybody can say anything? Why am I getting this ad? Okay,

221
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:10,720
Speaker 1: now I bought this thing that I got this ad

222
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,080
Speaker 1: seventeen times? Like did I even want that? What do

223
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,520
Speaker 1: I like? What should bodies look like? It's so so

224
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,720
Speaker 1: much and so I don't even know the right question

225
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,720
Speaker 1: to ask. But how are you sitting in? The Internet

226
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,520
Speaker 1: is good? Internet is scary that it makes a ton

227
00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,360
Speaker 1: of sense, and it's the trickiest because here's how I

228
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,440
Speaker 1: think of the Internet, especially these days. You know, like

229
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 1: every science fiction series, um, there's always that episode where

230
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,520
Speaker 1: someone can start listening to everyone else's internal monologue and

231
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 1: they start hearing all these things in their minds and

232
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,320
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, no, I'm hearing everyone else's thoughts. That

233
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,480
Speaker 1: is literally what the Internet is. You're hearing everyone's thoughts.

234
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 1: And the only way to manage that is to build

235
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,199
Speaker 1: defenses and structure around it, right to say, okay, so

236
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 1: let me tell you my TikTok role. My TikTok role

237
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 1: is that I can only watch TikTok at the end

238
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,080
Speaker 1: of any hour for leftover time until the top of

239
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,320
Speaker 1: the hour. So if we were to finish at eleven

240
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 1: fifty seven, I have three minutes and I can just

241
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 1: be on TikTok because youve got to control your time otherwise,

242
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,160
Speaker 1: these platforms are designed for you to give them all

243
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,920
Speaker 1: of your attention and all of your time, right, So

244
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,600
Speaker 1: you need time structure. I also think you have to

245
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 1: remind yourself often that a lot of what you see

246
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,640
Speaker 1: isn't real, and you have to remind yourself that constantly.

247
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 1: And that's really tricky because you want to relate and

248
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,440
Speaker 1: connect to people. That's what's beautiful about it. But it's

249
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,840
Speaker 1: kind of like your friends, right. You have people you

250
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 1: run into, you have your acquaintances, you have your friends,

251
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,800
Speaker 1: and you have your besties. That's a structure that we

252
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,240
Speaker 1: have in our real life. You've got to bring that

253
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,160
Speaker 1: to social Not everybody is your best, no matter how

254
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,160
Speaker 1: much they say they might be. You've got to understand

255
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 1: who's like you're you're the D team, Like, I'm not

256
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,320
Speaker 1: going to trust everything you say. You're around sometimes you're funny.

257
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,160
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna like hang my life on what you

258
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:55,760
Speaker 1: have to say. And just like you do that in

259
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,079
Speaker 1: real life, you have to do that here too. What

260
00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,560
Speaker 1: what do you think because I think that's hard for

261
00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,080
Speaker 1: people to uh to actually put into action. It's like,

262
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 1: I know that not everything I see on Instagram Israel.

263
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,080
Speaker 1: I know that there are filters. I know that, yet

264
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,000
Speaker 1: I still get tricked. This is not even a professional question,

265
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,679
Speaker 1: but in your own just personal opinion, why do you

266
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,680
Speaker 1: think it's hard for people to remember that. I think

267
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,600
Speaker 1: it all boils down to to proximity and relatability. And

268
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,880
Speaker 1: here's what I mean by that. Magazines existed for decades

269
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,360
Speaker 1: and decades. We all saw images of people who were

270
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,880
Speaker 1: something to attain, right. I would look at tier banks

271
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,440
Speaker 1: and be like, I don't look like tire banks. Fun fact,

272
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,200
Speaker 1: no one looks like tire banks. So that was a

273
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,280
Speaker 1: very easy to be to be like, oh, you're over there.

274
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,319
Speaker 1: But these are devices we hold in our hand all

275
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,960
Speaker 1: the time. It's not up on a billboard or on

276
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,920
Speaker 1: a TV. It's the same device you used to text

277
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,440
Speaker 1: your mom or your best friend. It's the same device

278
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,920
Speaker 1: you used to send messages to people you care about.

279
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,440
Speaker 1: It's so intimate. The proximity makes it really get into

280
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 1: your mind. And the other thing is the relatability. Right

281
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,720
Speaker 1: when I didn't look like tire Banks, it was okay,

282
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,319
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't go to school of tire Banks.

283
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 1: I don't really see her at the grocery store. But

284
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 1: what you see for so many influencers on Instagram and

285
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,000
Speaker 1: TikTok is the entire brand is based off relatability, right,

286
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 1: Like here I am looking beautiful at the grocery store,

287
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,600
Speaker 1: and that gets into your brain right where you're like,

288
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,880
Speaker 1: am I supposed to look great at the grocery store?

289
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 1: Like I found a band aid in my own hair

290
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 1: when I was at the grocery store yesterday, so like

291
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,760
Speaker 1: that's that's where I'm coming from. And so it's like

292
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,960
Speaker 1: that sort of relatability of seeing this kind of appearance

293
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,000
Speaker 1: situated in otherwise where you want to looking things, and

294
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,040
Speaker 1: that just gets it will just get in you, and

295
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,120
Speaker 1: I think you have I'm really ruthless about on following

296
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 1: if I'm like, oh, I had a bad feeling when

297
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,480
Speaker 1: I looked at this, even if it's a little feeling

298
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,720
Speaker 1: of envy, a little flicker of jealousy, and just like, unfollowed,

299
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 1: get out of this. I also a a Saudi fashion

300
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,120
Speaker 1: blogger that I follow who is amazing. Her name is

301
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,760
Speaker 1: Ala Baffi. She's like at Allah. She had this really

302
00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 1: interesting experiment over the summer where she unfollowed everybody on Instagram.

303
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 1: She has hundreds of thousands of followers. She just went

304
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 1: down to zero because she wanted to see what it

305
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,040
Speaker 1: was like to create in a space where she didn't

306
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,480
Speaker 1: feel like she was getting inputs from other people. And

307
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,120
Speaker 1: she did it for a month, but she said it

308
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 1: was like a palate cleanser. And so I think you've

309
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,760
Speaker 1: got to be super in tune with where you are

310
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,360
Speaker 1: and then know that you might need those retreat moments,

311
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,680
Speaker 1: whether it's quitting the app. I find that hard or

312
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,880
Speaker 1: that kind of like just palate cleanser, like you gotta

313
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,960
Speaker 1: do what you need. Well. I find it hard to

314
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,560
Speaker 1: to quit because that brings in this like black and whiteness,

315
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,000
Speaker 1: and for a lot of people, like there's so much

316
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,720
Speaker 1: good that can come from this and so much education

317
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 1: and so much connection and so and creativity and fun

318
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,320
Speaker 1: that when we are like I'll just I'll just quit

319
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,720
Speaker 1: for six months, okay, But why because then when you

320
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 1: add it again, what's going to be different exactly? And

321
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 1: that's why I so I'm not I I can't quit.

322
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,840
Speaker 1: It's just that's not how I work. So I'm all

323
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,800
Speaker 1: about putting in structure around like what are the times

324
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,240
Speaker 1: of day where I know, like this is like fun

325
00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,720
Speaker 1: for me? Right? Who are the people that I find

326
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 1: really generative and enriching, of which there are a lot,

327
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,400
Speaker 1: And who are the people that sometimes I see this,

328
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, I just feel bad, Like I just I

329
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 1: just feel bad when I see this, right, Um, And

330
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 1: for like for me, it was and this you know,

331
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 1: just personal, like for people who are really into documenting

332
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 1: their weight lost journey all the time and like what

333
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,080
Speaker 1: they're eating and stuff. I'll just be like, you know what,

334
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,080
Speaker 1: good for you. I wish you well for what you

335
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,680
Speaker 1: want to do. I am not going to be on

336
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,560
Speaker 1: this like national geographic like voyeuristic endeavor for you I'm out,

337
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: Like I'm out. I'll follow you back later, but not

338
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 1: right now. I can't. Yeah, and that doesn't feel good

339
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 1: for me to watch that. No, it doesn't. And again

340
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to police or judge what anyone wants

341
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,440
Speaker 1: to do with their body. But I don't need to

342
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,480
Speaker 1: have a front row seat to this. I'm glad you

343
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,680
Speaker 1: want to share. I don't need to be here for it.

344
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 1: Thank you for saying that, because I think a lot

345
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,080
Speaker 1: of times when you unfollow somebody, I feel like we're

346
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,040
Speaker 1: getting off topic. But I don't even care when you

347
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,160
Speaker 1: unfollow somebody. It's like, you know, people have like apps

348
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 1: that they can see like who unfollowed them, which I

349
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,920
Speaker 1: think that is so unhealthy. But again, do what you

350
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 1: need to do. It's like that is like an attack

351
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:05,919
Speaker 1: on me, like they hate me or they don't like me,

352
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,680
Speaker 1: or how could they unfollow me? But that doesn't mean

353
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 1: that what you just said is, I'm not saying she's

354
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,639
Speaker 1: doing anything wrong or bad. Do what you need to

355
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,639
Speaker 1: do to be the person you want to be. I

356
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 1: don't want to watch it because it doesn't feel good

357
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,640
Speaker 1: to me. It's boundaries, period, exactly, period, And that's just boundaries.

358
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,800
Speaker 1: And I feel like what I am really intrigued by

359
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,919
Speaker 1: is as we come to these realizations that tech is

360
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,199
Speaker 1: like can be good, can also be really bad for

361
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,040
Speaker 1: people's self esteem. I am seeing from a lot of

362
00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:39,160
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs and innovators I know, attempts at solving this through

363
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,360
Speaker 1: providing more opportunities for structure. So what does that mean.

364
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,280
Speaker 1: I was just talking to this person who was like,

365
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be cool if I could create a plug

366
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 1: in into Instagram and you could just decide that I

367
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 1: don't want to see anything that's like hashtag weight, lost, journey,

368
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,560
Speaker 1: hashtag shredded for summer, hashtag whatever, and some people I follow,

369
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,879
Speaker 1: it would just like it just block those out for me, right,

370
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 1: I'm not there, And that way it sort of speaks

371
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,479
Speaker 1: to what you're saying. It's like, I'm not on following you.

372
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I'm not here for that hashtag right now,

373
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,719
Speaker 1: like I can't be Yeah, And like I have a

374
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,960
Speaker 1: friend who unfortunately like went through a miscarriage and she

375
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,640
Speaker 1: just was like, I can't see everyone's baby announcements right now,

376
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,159
Speaker 1: Like I just I'm not there. I wish there was

377
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,600
Speaker 1: something that she could just be like, yeah, that's not

378
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,440
Speaker 1: right now, just not right now for me. I want

379
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 1: to be on the platform, but just not that. But

380
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 1: I think there are people who are dabbling in the

381
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,639
Speaker 1: in those kinds of solutions, and I'm excited for that. Yes,

382
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 1: I want that. I want that right because it does

383
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,639
Speaker 1: feel like how do I set up my boundaries? I

384
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,440
Speaker 1: can set up my boundaries of who I follow, who

385
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,880
Speaker 1: I mute, how much I'm on it, But sometimes it's

386
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,399
Speaker 1: just like the pop up, It's like I didn't want

387
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 1: to see that, Like I'm not here for this. I

388
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 1: didn't want to see that. And I think, but this

389
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,880
Speaker 1: is what I think is so good about surfacing these harms, right,

390
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 1: about having these news articles, of having people talk about

391
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 1: this openly, because once we identify what the harms are

392
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 1: and how people are honestly feeling, we can design around that.

393
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,080
Speaker 1: And for some people, look, depending on the platform, it

394
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,360
Speaker 1: might be yeah, maybe that shouldn't exist, but I think

395
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,760
Speaker 1: there might be a layer below that, right, that's like,

396
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 1: how do we make these platforms responsive and designed for

397
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 1: people so they can set their boundaries in a healthy way.

398
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 1: So I didn't say this when we started, but my

399
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 1: best friend connected us Tory Pool and she's been on

400
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 1: the show before. She's freaking amazing. She's awesome. She's like

401
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,360
Speaker 1: you she does seven dred things and I'm like, how

402
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,280
Speaker 1: are you doing that? I text her the other day,

403
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, I can't even make my bed and you're

404
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,360
Speaker 1: planning a birthday party, a christening. You work a full

405
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: time job, you teach its soul cycle. You're freaking smart people.

406
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 1: How do you do all this? She is amazing though,

407
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 1: she I mean, she's like the next level amazing human.

408
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,879
Speaker 1: She really is. So anyways, when she was talking to me,

409
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,239
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this makes me think about that

410
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,040
Speaker 1: documentary that came out. I guess it was Last to

411
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 1: Your The Social Dilemma. I didn't watch the whole thing

412
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,120
Speaker 1: full disclosure, because I was like, this is information overload

413
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 1: and now I'm scared. But what I remember from the

414
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,399
Speaker 1: beginning of it is it was a bunch of people

415
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 1: who helped with the start of these big I think

416
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 1: it was like Twitter and like Google and stuff like

417
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,439
Speaker 1: that that were then coming and be like, Oh, we

418
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 1: didn't mean to create this. This is not what we

419
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,639
Speaker 1: meant to create. And so I want to kind of

420
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit, and then I want

421
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 1: you to tell us about what the markup is and

422
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 1: what what that is doing, because what I saw with

423
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 1: me and my own clients, what I was working with

424
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 1: two When that came out, everybody was like, I can't

425
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: be on the internet anymore, and I was like, well,

426
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,640
Speaker 1: we have to, So what do we do and how

427
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 1: can we help ourselves? The boundaries and all that over

428
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: over there. But kind of what I was talking about

429
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 1: in the beginning too, it's like I find myself buying

430
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 1: things that I'm like, I didn't want this? Why is

431
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 1: it in my home now? So I don't know what

432
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: the question is, but can you tell can we talk

433
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: about that? Well? First, I think I think we're in

434
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 1: a really exciting and interesting moment right because these conversations

435
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: are happening, And what these conversations mean is Okay, does

436
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 1: it have to be this way? Right? Does it have

437
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: to be this way? Is this inevitable? Is this the

438
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,879
Speaker 1: future we're in? And I think if enough of us

439
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: are like, no, I don't want this. I don't want

440
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 1: to be persuaded into mindlessly buying things or feeling bad

441
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 1: about myself because of something I saw, or questioning whether

442
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: anything is real. Because all of the information is out

443
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,679
Speaker 1: there if we don't want it to be this way.

444
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: First things first, we have to understand how we got here,

445
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: and that goes back to the first part of your question, right,

446
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 1: Like all of these people built these systems. They built Google,

447
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: they built Twitter, they built Facebook. I don't think this

448
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: is where they wanted us to be. They made a

449
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: ton of money getting here, but I don't think that

450
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 1: was the dream at the outset. So we have to understand,

451
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 1: like what happened? Right, How did we get from this

452
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: sort of like fun wild internet to this place that

453
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 1: feels like a digital prison for our minds and our behavior.

454
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: Like what happened? And so there's a lot of interesting,

455
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: I think things to say in this space. One artist

456
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: that I love. I didn't think a lawyer will talk

457
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 1: about art, but I do love art, and I think

458
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: it's important in this time. There's this artist, his name

459
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 1: is Ben Grosser, and he has this exhibit up called

460
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: Software for Less, and in it he redesigns all of

461
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,239
Speaker 1: these platforms to be optimized for less, not more. So

462
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: imagine these platforms like Instagram, they want you to post

463
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: all the time, right, The algorithm is hungry. You've got

464
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: to feed it constantly. What would it look like if

465
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,880
Speaker 1: actually you signed up for Instagram and it just gave

466
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: you a hundred posts for your whole life and said

467
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: you've got a hundred choose wisely, what do you want

468
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: to share? Like? Think about how the incentive for growth

469
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 1: was built into this platform from day one, and that

470
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: may create a whole set of incentives and patterns and

471
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: structures on the app. But if you had designed that

472
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: day one differently scarcity and not growth, how would that

473
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: feel different? How would people approach things? And I love

474
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 1: that because a lot of times the scarcity mindset leads

475
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: us down. We talk about like dating or taking jobs

476
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: or this or that. Sometimes it's not great. But with this,

477
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: it's like, wait, that would be helpful. I wouldn't be

478
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: worried about every day I have to post five things

479
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 1: so people see my stuff. It's like, I don't want

480
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 1: to post this because it's not that important, right And

481
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 1: I think it's because I shared the same perspective on

482
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 1: scarcity mindset. It often leads to dysfunction. But the one

483
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: thing that is truly scarce in this world is actually time.

484
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: Like you can't get more, you can't get anything, It

485
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: is actually the scarce thing. What could it look like

486
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 1: if we designed for the future and said, let's design differently, right,

487
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: And that's actually exercise we're in at the moment. It's

488
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 1: thinking about what the design should be because what we

489
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: have isn't working. And that's where the innovation around. Okay,

490
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: if we want more boundaries and structure, how do we

491
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: design for control? How do we add those layers on it?

492
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: How do we grow up? Right? Because what we're seeing

493
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 1: is like Internet is an adolescent, it's young, and we're

494
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: growing up and figuring out what boundaries we need. And

495
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: I think that is what's really fun about this time. Wait,

496
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 1: can we do that? It feels like we're going backwards,

497
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: but can we be like Instagram? We're changing? Like, how

498
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: do we do that? So I think that's that's so

499
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: fun about this moment, right, because it might not be Instagram.

500
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: It might be that Instagram decides we want to stay

501
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: the way we are, sorry, take it or leave it,

502
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: and then there's enough. There are so many people working

503
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: in this space, we're like, Okay, first of all, you

504
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: may get sued by the Federal Trade Commission Instagram for

505
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: a variety of your privacy practices and like, there's all

506
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: this legislation and other government movement to break up these platforms.

507
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: So maybe that if they decide to stay the way

508
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: they are, they're not allowed to. It may also be

509
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: that enough people want other competitors, that people are like

510
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: I don't want to be on a platform that's like this,

511
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: I want to be on this different kind of place,

512
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: and that we see that movement happened too, because remember

513
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: my Space was a big deal not that long ago, right,

514
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: everyone was on my Space? So everyone was and now

515
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: we're like, who what what is my space? Right? So movements,

516
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: but we got to remember that too. We do have agency,

517
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: we do have control, and quitting one platform doesn't mean

518
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: quitting the Internet or social It means that we might

519
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 1: evolve to something else. Okay, that is something that I

520
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: think we need to remember. Going back to my example

521
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: of like why do I have this shirt in my closet?

522
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 1: I don't like it and I bought it. I'm like

523
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: I just want this ad to go away almost, or

524
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: like I guess I need this, But I do have

525
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: agency and control and that platform sometimes makes me feel

526
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: like I don't. So rather than Instagram's changing, if we

527
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: all start because we a lot of us are feeling

528
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: this way and something else is created. We have the

529
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: power to say I don't want to use this platform anymore.

530
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: There's something that fits my needs. I have power, yeah,

531
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: And I think that is the thing for people to remember.

532
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: And these platforms don't want to remind you that they

533
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: have power, right, that's not in their incentive. They don't

534
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: want you to feel like empowered or that you have agency.

535
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: But that is the reality of this moment, and that

536
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: we've done this before. People left my Space and they

537
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,959
Speaker 1: went to Facebook, and people went left Facebook, and they

538
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:07,719
Speaker 1: went to Twitter, and they went to Twitter, and they

539
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: went to Instagram, and they're leaving Instagram. They're going to

540
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: TikTok and it'll be something else we haven't heard about.

541
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: Like this happens, people do it. And also like the

542
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: smartphone is just over what ten years old, ten fifte

543
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: years old? Like this isn't gravity, okay, Like this isn't

544
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: a lot of physics. This stuff is choices and they're hard.

545
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: So I want to just be very honest about the

546
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: fact that it's hard, but we we can do hard things. Right,

547
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,719
Speaker 1: It's hard, but we can do hard We can't we

548
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: can't and Also, I just have a question that I

549
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: don't know if you can fully answer. With all of

550
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: the stuff on those platforms, specifically Instagram and Facebook, what's

551
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: the legality that's even the right word, Like for them

552
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: to gather all our information and then expan us like

553
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: that feels wrong? Yes, And so this is I think

554
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: an area where I call it regulatory imagination, Like legislators

555
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: and regulators are imagining what they can do in this

556
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: space in a way that they not ten years ago, right,

557
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: because everyone's like what can we do? And so for

558
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: many of these platforms, they're looking at, well, what is

559
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 1: the data you're collecting from children? Is that allowed? Do

560
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: we allow you to collect this much information from kids?

561
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: Do we let kids say, um, hi sorry, Facebook, I

562
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: turned eight team get rid of everything that you had

563
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: about me from before, which is actually a law in California, right,

564
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: you're able? Yeah, And so like states are experimenting with this,

565
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: Europe is experimenting with this. So to answer your question,

566
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: like what's the legality here, we get to make it

567
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: and everyone is trying, right. So in in Europe there's

568
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: something called the g DPR, which is a data protection

569
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: regulation and they're implementing all kinds of ideas of hey,

570
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: what does content moderation look like here? Should a human

571
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: being be the one who's deciding to take something down?

572
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 1: So Facebook can't just say, oops, sorry, plus sized woman,

573
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: I took your picture down by accident because the algorithm

574
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: did it right. How do we in pose this kind

575
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: of structure on what these platforms are doing. This is

576
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: all happening in real time now, and everyone's trying different things.

577
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of rules around privacy and the

578
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 1: collection of data to target you. That targeting information be like, hey, Katherine,

579
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna like this pair of like wide

580
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: like pants, Like you're gonna like it. I'm going to

581
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: just push it to you a thousand times a day.

582
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 1: There is a lot of legislative scrutiny of do we

583
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: want to allow that, Should Catherine be able to opt out,

584
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: should she be able to say no, I don't want

585
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: you to have I don't want you to set target

586
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: me with clothes. I don't want you to target I

587
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: want you to get rid of all the data you

588
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: collected about me for this. I want you to only

589
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: be able to use data that you got from this app,

590
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: not buying it on the open market to target me

591
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: as a profile, you know, as a profile. All of

592
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: that's happening now, which feels good. When I was making

593
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: one of my websites, I was working with a business consultant,

594
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: and I have a newsletter. Well I had a newsletter,

595
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: sign up for it. I'm gonna get it back back

596
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: and running soon. But we were creating like the pop

597
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: up forward and whatever and then opt out whatever he

598
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: and he. I don't remember the language because it's over

599
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,239
Speaker 1: my head, but I just remember him being so serious about, well,

600
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: they need to be able to opt out or you

601
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: can't just take their stuff or you can't. And I

602
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: was like, why other people do it? To me? Like

603
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: I just wanted to know why. I'm a why person?

604
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I get emails all the time, and

605
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: I've never signed up for this email subscription. I've unchecked

606
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: the box when I've checked out at let's say, like

607
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, like Lulu Lemon, I actually checked the

608
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: box for that. I want those emails, but like there's

609
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: plenty of things that I'm like, I bought something from

610
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: here one time. I know I didn't check that box.

611
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: Why am I getting four emails a day? That seems

612
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: like it should be illegal. Yeah, and it is, and

613
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: so I think the eskay, And the question is because

614
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: there's all of this sale happening of your data. But

615
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: those opt outs are real for a reason. And when

616
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: people do don't comply, right, which happens so they're like, oh, sorry,

617
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna keep emailing you. They can and do get

618
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: in trouble by state regulators and federal regulators. The problem

619
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: is often had the fines haven't been that much money,

620
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: and it's like jaywalking, right, You're like, act like, what

621
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: are the chances I'm gonna get in trouble this time?

622
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: But the more attention we put to it, the more

623
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: the public is like, hey, I don't like this and

624
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to report you. The more room you're giving

625
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: these regulators to be like you know what, Yeah, last

626
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: time we find you five hundred dollars and you company

627
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: X you didn't care because five hundred dollars to you, Like, okay,

628
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: you sell you know, five pairs of Lulu Lemon leggings.

629
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: And there we are like that's fine, it's worth it.

630
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: Let's raise the fine amount. Let's stop paying attention to

631
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: lobbyists who are saying no, no no, no, no, it'll self correct.

632
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: Enough time has past. You didn't fix it on your own.

633
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: And that's really like, I want people to be so

634
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: empowered by the moment that we're in because there were

635
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: all of these beliefs that people had before. It'll fix itself. Eventually,

636
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: people are still figuring it out. There aren't that many

637
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: bad actors that now we're like, no, you had enough time,

638
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: we're changing it now. Yeah, okay, well then can we

639
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: now talk about the Markup then? Totally? Okay? Tell us

640
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: what that is and why you created it and all

641
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: the things. The Markup is a new media organization that

642
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: is looking at a very simple question, how is technology

643
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: reshaping our world? And that means like the big tech

644
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: that we've been talking about, Amazon, Google, whatever, but also

645
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: the tech you haven't heard of. Right, So, technology like

646
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: universities using these things called student risk algorithms to determine

647
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: who they think is at high risk of failing out

648
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: of a particular subject. Surprised, the algorithm will say things

649
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: like women and black people usually aren't in STEM, so

650
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: they're at a high risk of failing out. I mean,

651
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: really like the algorithms are making these sort of stupid

652
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: I'll call them stupid. I was gonna say that doesn't

653
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: make it doesn't make may sense. Here's why they algorithms

654
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: are making very stupid interpretations of historical data, saying, well,

655
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: we haven't seen women and people of color in science, technology, engineering,

656
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: and math, so we think that they're rare, so we

657
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: think they're at a high risk of failing out. Now,

658
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: you and I as human beings can be like, yeah, no,

659
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: that's wrong a billion different ways, right, Like, there's a

660
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: million reasons why the representative data of the past is

661
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: not actually indicative or instructive for the future. But again,

662
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: like a lot of these algorithms are stupid, right, Like

663
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: they're trained on the data they have and they make

664
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: inferences that are not full and robust, and sometimes they're nonsensical.

665
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: So this is an example of actually reporting that we

666
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: did earlier this year. We identified one of these algorithms

667
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: that had this kind of output. We published the story,

668
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: and we told four hundred different colleges and universities that

669
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: we're using this algorithm. Hey, you might want to take

670
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: a look at this thing that you've signed up for.

671
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,479
Speaker 1: And I want to give major props to Texas and

672
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: M University that day was done. We're not using this algorithm.

673
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for telling us. We did not know that

674
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: this was the conclusion that it was spitting it out

675
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: because if you're you're like sitting at the school, you're

676
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: just getting reports from this algorithm. Okay, you don't know

677
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: all of the ways that it's flawed. You trust it.

678
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: And so that's what we're doing. We are here to say, hey,

679
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on behind the scenes for big

680
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: tech and this this other tech you don't know about,

681
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: and it has real impact on people's lives, on their schooling,

682
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: on their education, on their mortgages, on their businesses, and

683
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna tell you what that is so you can

684
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,239
Speaker 1: make better choices. And that's what we do, which is

685
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: so cool because is anybody else doing that. You're like

686
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: trying to You're just trying to help people. We're just

687
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: we we call it service journalism, right, it's journalism as

688
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: a service. We're trying to help you. And one thing

689
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: that our team does, and like our team is just

690
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: full of rock star journalists, data scientists, technologists, engineers, like

691
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: they're amazing. They'll build these tools, like one tool that

692
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: I love is called black light anyone can use it.

693
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: It's the markup dot org splash black light. You can

694
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: put in your favorite websites. So put in girl scouts

695
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: dot org. It will show you all of the data

696
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: that's being collected about you when you go to girl

697
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: scouts dot org. So, talking about the data collection that

698
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: we just mentioned earlier in the conversation, there's a lot

699
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: of places you go on the Internet and you don't

700
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: think that data is going to be collected about you,

701
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: like you're just visiting a website. So we built this

702
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: tool to help people understand in real time for the

703
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: sites you go to, what are they they're taking about you?

704
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: And we did a big investigation using this tool, and

705
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: we found things like when you go to an abortion

706
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: provider website, the data they're collecting on you. Now, I

707
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 1: bet you if you go to an abortion provider website,

708
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: that's not a moment in which you think someone's collecting

709
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: data about you. And we know that data could be

710
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: extremely sensitive health wise, I mean now criminality wise, if

711
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: you're sitting in Texas, like, collecting this data has consequences,

712
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: and we want people to know what's happening and where

713
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: Wait a second that I feel fear right, because I'm

714
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: like no in the sense that like, if I go

715
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: to this right now, well, can I test us our

716
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: while we're talking? Okay, so the markup dot org slash blacklight.

717
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: I go to there and then I type in a website.

718
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: Just enter a website. Okay, what's a website that I

719
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: don't even know? Well, let's just go to lulu Lemon. Oh,

720
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: that's a fun one. Now I'm curious about Lulua Lemon.

721
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: I haven't tried that one, and honestly I should have.

722
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: I also like their leggings, I know. I'm like please. Okay,

723
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: So I just type You'll see testing for ad trackers,

724
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: third party cookies, tracking the evades, cookie blockers. So you

725
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: may think I have a cookie blocker. I'm fine, No, no,

726
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 1: If there's tracking the evades, that session monitoring scripts, key

727
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: stroke capturing, Facebook and Google, this website sending dad about

728
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 1: your Facebook. Wait a second, Wait, okay, here's a question.

729
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: I have I log in through Facebook and so many

730
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: things because it's just easier. What is that doing? Is

731
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: that giving Facebook all of the information they have agreed

732
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: to gather from that website about you. So let's say

733
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: you use Facebook to log into like a calendar app

734
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: that you love, Everything from that calendar app is now

735
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: also going to Facebook. And this is one reason Facebook

736
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: has so much data because every time you put on

737
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: a Facebook little tracking pixel, you know, like like me

738
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: on Facebook, right, if you put that on your website,

739
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: they put a pixel on that site and they collect

740
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: information from all of your people that come to your website.

741
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: Stop it. Also, I don't mind still loading? Is still loading?

742
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: Mind still loading? It is probably because too much stuff, man,

743
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: I hope not. When it is done, we'll it just

744
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: says it's currently testing, so we'll just we'll just well

745
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: just wait for it. But it'll tell you like six

746
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: ad trackers, this many cookies, this many of this, it'll

747
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 1: tell you all this stuff. And if you scroll down

748
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: you can also see the articles that we wrote. Like

749
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: so one notable one is the high privacy cost of

750
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: a free website. So we get into you know, these

751
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: websites look free, but what's actually happening like a WordPress

752
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: like or Square dot com like those three things anything. Right,

753
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: Like you go to a website, you're like, I'm just

754
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: checking you out. However, there may be this invisible trade

755
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: that happens of your data and we just want you

756
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: to know about it. And you'll see our approach is

757
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: very much like I'm not trying to give you no solution.

758
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: So another thing you'll see in our website is at

759
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: the bottom of the black light page. I scammed websites

760
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: I visit with black light and it's horrifying. Now what

761
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: we always want to give you, and now what I

762
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: don't want you to be sitting there on your sitting

763
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: on your hands, terrified, trying to throw your computer out

764
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: the window, right. We want to give you things you

765
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: can do about it. So our advices. You might want

766
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: to switch browsers, you might want to add some privacy extensions.

767
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: We give you some examples of them in the site.

768
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: So we just want to give you what you need

769
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: to be able to take control of your life. You're

770
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: not saying don't ever go to this website again. You're like, Okay,

771
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: now you know, you know you have awareness. Here are

772
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: things you can do to protect yourself. I just think

773
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: scaring people and not giving them a pathway forward leads

774
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: to that sort of binary black and white thinking that

775
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier. It's like, it's like, well, now you know,

776
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: so if you care about it you're going to opt out,

777
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: and that's not real life. For real life doesn't mean

778
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: you can opt out. And by the way, in real life,

779
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: if you were driving on the road and there was

780
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: a pothole and you drove on the pothole and you've

781
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: got a busted tire, imagine if people were like, that's

782
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: what you get for driving, Okay, you shouldn't be driving

783
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: on the road. That it would be insane. We would

784
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: look at that person and be like, you are bananagrams.

785
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: So that's not a real that's not a real solution.

786
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: We would say, there's a pothole, I'm calling the city government.

787
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: I'm letting them know about the pothole, and I want

788
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: to make sure that pothole is filled. That is what

789
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: I want us to move to. The sort of civic

790
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: understanding and responsibility of the internet as a utility. We're

791
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 1: all using it, okay, so we want it to be better.

792
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: We're not saying stop driving on the road. We're saying

793
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: fix the road right because we can't not drive. We

794
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: can't not dan we can, but like, but what's there's

795
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: what's the consequence of not driving? So what's the consequence

796
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 1: of never being able to go on the internet again.

797
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's just it's not realistic. And if

798
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: if that's the advice that you give people, they're not

799
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: going to take it. And so they're just going to

800
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: either ignore the issue or feel bad all the time

801
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 1: that something is being done to them and they can't

802
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: stop it. And that's that's not the society that I

803
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: think we live it. Like I, I believe that people

804
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: have agency, and so one of our amazing engineers has

805
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: this phrase called agency not apathy. We want people to

806
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: feel agency, not apathy about what's going on, and that's

807
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: the heart of the markup. I like this idea because

808
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: I had the feeling of like, I'm going to see

809
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: all the stuff that these websites are taking from me.

810
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: But that fear can be a motivator in the sense

811
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: that I'm scared because I care about what people are

812
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: doing and what's happening. And so rather than I'm I'm

813
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: feeling fear, I'm just going to hide, I'm gonna never

814
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: drive again, I'm gonna whatever, I'm never going to enter again,

815
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: it's I feel fear, I care about this. Therefore I'm

816
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: going to do something differently. And you're saying here are

817
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: the tools and here's what you can do, which thank

818
00:39:53,280 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: you for doing that. You're welcome. So black lights one

819
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: of the tools. There's three that I saw. Can we

820
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 1: talk about that, of course? So we have black Light.

821
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: We have a tool called split screen, so you know,

822
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: we all kind of intuitively know that our neighbors might

823
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: not be seeing the same thing on Facebook that we do, right,

824
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: Like I have my portfolio things that I read that

825
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: I'm targeted with news wise on Facebook, and I know

826
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: that other folks that I know they're getting news from

827
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: very different sources. So we have this tool called split

828
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: screen that is a almost real time tool to see

829
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: like what are women seeing on Facebook? What are men

830
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: seeing on Facebook? What are boomer seeing on Facebook? What

831
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: are millennials seeing on Facebook? And the way we're able

832
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 1: to do that is that we actually built a representative

833
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: statistical panel across the country and said, hey, folks, use

834
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: this tool that we made called Citizen Browser. We're not

835
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: going to collect any of your private information, but we

836
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: want to know what news articles are being pushed to

837
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: you by Facebook because it's interesting to us. We want

838
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 1: to know just how different are people's news universes. After

839
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: something like the January six incident, right, So like what

840
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: are Trump voters seeing in terms of the news that's

841
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: been pushed to them, and what are Biden voters seeing? Right?

842
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 1: And so we built this to answer those questions. We

843
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: kind of all intuitively new, right, like, oh yeah, you're

844
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: seeing different stuff than me. But we wanted to know

845
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: the answer with data, right. We wanted to know it

846
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: with science because we think if you know with certainty,

847
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: then you can fix it in reality. But if you

848
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: just operate with these stereotypes, right, like, it's not you

849
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: can't move the ball. And all I want to do

850
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: is move the ball to a better future. So anyone

851
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: can check out the mark up split screen and just

852
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: kind of see like what's going on. Well, and that

853
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: is fascinating too, because I'm a big believer in Again,

854
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 1: this goes with everything we're saying, but like, you start

855
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: to believe what you see. So if I'm this demographic

856
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: and I'm getting all this, and let's say my grandfather

857
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: is obviously a different demographic, no wonder we have different

858
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: views and we have different information when we're talking about

859
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: something that's happening in the world, because we're both getting

860
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: different information and probably an influx of like not even information. Agree.

861
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: What you see creates your reality. So we have to

862
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: understand what are these platforms doing to create that different

863
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: reality and then be able to call them on it,

864
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 1: right to be like, hey, you set Like an article

865
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: that we wrote at the Markup was, Hey, Facebook, you

866
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: said that you weren't going to push election related information

867
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: election news right before the election, right like Mark Zuckerberg said,

868
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: We're not going to recommend these political groups is what

869
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 1: he said. We're like, okay, but we were collecting data

870
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: with our split screen, our sitism browser panel, and we

871
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: were able to see the in fact, you were pushing

872
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: these Facebook groups two people right around the election and

873
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: continuing afterwards, Like you said that you weren't going to

874
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: but you did, So what are we going to do

875
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 1: about that? Yeah, And that's a difference of like, Okay,

876
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 1: anybody can say anything, but we're showing you guys what's

877
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: really happening exactly. I appreciate that. Okay, I have my

878
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: black light thinking up. I did Athleta instead. I don't

879
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: know why you have Lulu Lemon on your I just

880
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,439
Speaker 1: closed it out. I have New York that's fine, which

881
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: has a lot, so you can help explain this to me.

882
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: Say's one ad tracker found on this site. This is

883
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: less than half of the average of seven that we

884
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,959
Speaker 1: found on popular sites. What is that? So it'll tell you, Um,

885
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: if you click on it, it it can give you a

886
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: little bit more explanation, I think. But we see that

887
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: on average there are seven on different websites that are

888
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 1: around the world or around around the Internet, and so

889
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: Athleta on that front is doing better than the average.

890
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: And that's like a good thing to know, to be like,

891
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: all right, thank you friends. And then when you click

892
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: into it, it will give you an explanation of like, well,

893
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: what's an ad tracker? Right? Because again, like I don't

894
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: want to assume that anyone knows anything about the internet,

895
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: because we all have full lives. Okay, people have expertise

896
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: in different things. It's not your fault that you don't

897
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: know what a cookie is or an ad tracker or something.

898
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: It's not anyone's fault. Our job is to be like, Okay,

899
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: well you want to know, here you go. Yeah, I

900
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: appreciate that because I have no idea, okay, And it

901
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: says third party cookie. Fourteen third party cookies were found

902
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: this is more than average of three that we found

903
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: on this site. Okay, what does that means? So a

904
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: third party cookie is something that tracks you around as

905
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: you follow the internet. So like, let's say you go

906
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: to one website. If there's a cookie on that website,

907
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: it can see not only like what are you where

908
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 1: are you scrolling? What are you clicking through? What kind

909
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: of leggings did you linger on? What what did you

910
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: put into your basket? It can do that for that website,

911
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: and potentially, depending on the cookie, you can also follow

912
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: you to other places that you go, even when you

913
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 1: leave Athleta dot com. Okay, so they're not doing good there.

914
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: This website loads trackers on your computer that are designed

915
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: to evade third party cookie blockers, sneaking. Yeah, I don't

916
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: like that. That's all it found. So that I mean,

917
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: I guess that's generally not horrible. So you said New

918
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: York Times is pretty scary, and New York Times wasn't

919
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: the greatest although but you know, but but like here's

920
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: the thing, So they have third party cookies. Remember, the

921
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: third party cookies can actually be good. And this is

922
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 1: where the explanations matter. So let's say you put something

923
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: in your basket at Atlanta and then you like click

924
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: away for a second and you come back and remembers

925
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: stuff in your basket. Okay, well cookies are important for that,

926
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: but that might not be a third party cookie. So

927
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: you want to What we want to do with black

928
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: Light is that we want to give you the opportunity

929
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: to like, okay, you have twenty four cookies. What are

930
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: these cookies? Right? Like, let's dig into this. So when

931
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 1: I put an athleta and went to athleta dot gap

932
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 1: dot com, and it tells me that the cookies are Twitter. Okay.

933
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: All that means is they have like a little Twitter

934
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: thing on their on their site, so you could click

935
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: Twitter and then go straight to their Twitter. That seems fine.

936
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 1: New Relic, who's that been? Tellect? Who's that Monotype? Imaging? Okay? Microsoft?

937
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: Oh I know them. Maybe it's related to service they're

938
00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: using Verizon? Okay, I pawn web. And then you look

939
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: at all these names and you're like, who are these people?

940
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: Let me google them? And so what we want to

941
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: give you is like, look, we can't tell you everything

942
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: you need to know, but we can tell you where

943
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: you can keep going. So maybe you should go Google

944
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 1: b Intellect Inc. And see what they do. You might

945
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: decide that they're okay. You might be like, I, actually,

946
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: they're fine. I don't care if they or Verizon or

947
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: Warner Media have my information. That seems all right, But

948
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: we want you to make that decision with agency, which

949
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: is probably part of that article that you were talking about,

950
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: is like it tells you what to do with the information. Okay,

951
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: So that's just interesting. I'm going to play with that

952
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: all day now. I feel wonderful. What's the best way

953
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: for people to go and get all this information? Because

954
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: I know that I'm very interested in it and want

955
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: to learn more, and I'm assuming people hearing this are

956
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: going to be too. So we have a newsletter called

957
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: Clauson that you can sign up for, and Claqueson will

958
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: just send you a little newsletter, like just a little

959
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: message every time we've a new article. We published twice

960
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 1: a week, so it's not again, it's not like a

961
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: ton to keep up with. We want to make sure

962
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: it's a manageable amount so you can actually wrap your

963
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: mind around it. And we also have a series called

964
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: Ask the Markup. So if you're like, um, this thing

965
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: is happening on the internet, I've seen it. I've always

966
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 1: wondered what is you know, what's the deal here? Um,

967
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: you can send in those kinds of questions to us too.

968
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,919
Speaker 1: We had a question where someone was like, Hey, what's

969
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 1: going on with Venmo? And like everyone can see my interact,

970
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: my transactions. Just like explain Venmo to me. And that's

971
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: article that we did. We did one about Klarina and

972
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: after pay and like anything that you I was reading

973
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: the after pay one. I think I was reading that

974
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: people like we were here for people's questions. You know,

975
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: it's complicated and so we want to put the tools

976
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: in your hands to make better choices. Let us know

977
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: how we can help. I'm interested in the Venmo one

978
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: because why is there a social feed on Venmo? You

979
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: can turn it off? It makes no sense, so I

980
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: didn't know you could. You can turn it off, You

981
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: can turn off. You can go through privacy settings. Yeah,

982
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: but there you go. So that's the thing you can do. Now,

983
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 1: go in through privacy settings. You can turn it off

984
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: so people don't see things. But like you just snoop

985
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: on everyone's life if they haven't turned it off, or

986
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, and why do I need to know that,

987
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 1: and you know what that makes me think of, like, gosh,

988
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: like dating, And you know, I'm a therapist, so I

989
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 1: hear a lot about people's dating lives, and and I'm

990
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: a human, so I talk to people and hear about

991
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: their dating lives. And I have one too, But like

992
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: the amount of people that are like I saw so

993
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: and so pay so and so on benmo, and I'm like,

994
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Like we have enough ways to stalk people.

995
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: We don't need to know who's paying who for tacos exactly.

996
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: And then because I hear it from my friends all

997
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: the time, like so and so had the little champagne

998
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: emoji with another person, what's that about? And it's like,

999
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 1: you know, it's probably nothing. And actually, we don't need

1000
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: to live in a surveillance state where we're watching every

1001
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: single thing what every other person does. Just yeah, don't

1002
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 1: do that. We don't need to do that. Well, I've

1003
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: loved talking to you so much. This is great. I

1004
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: feel like I'm going to have about five questions for

1005
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: you after I dig into all this stuff. That's what

1006
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: I love. I really am so grateful for all of

1007
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: this because I knew this was going to be a

1008
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: different kind of episode, but the amount of time I

1009
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: spend talking about the media, social media, just all this

1010
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: stuff with people in therapy and just like in my life,

1011
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: like we need people like you who are like helping

1012
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: us keep all of this but in a way that

1013
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: is helpful to us. What I've gotten out of this

1014
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: conversation is like, we don't need to like kill the internet.

1015
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: We just need to remember why we have it, what

1016
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: we wanted to actually do for us, and how do

1017
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: we put our efforts into that direction. That's absolutely right,

1018
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: that's and that honestly, like that's like a our new

1019
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: mission statement, but that's what it is. It's like preserved

1020
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 1: the good, get rid and fixed the bad, and we

1021
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: are in a really special opportunity space right now to

1022
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: do that. So let's do it. Let's freaking do it.

1023
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: I've been getting in my head the past probably a

1024
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: couple of months of being like I hate TikTok. I

1025
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: hate this, but like I don't hate it, but like

1026
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: I feel like I have to hate it because of

1027
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: the little bits of things that it doesn't help. And

1028
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: now I feel like refreshed. I like I don't have

1029
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: to hate this stuff. I just have to remember why

1030
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: can it be good? And how do I put my

1031
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: attention to that? Thank you? Also, we can talk at

1032
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: another time about how much I love TikTok and how

1033
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: much parenting advice I get from TikTok. We'll see how

1034
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: that turns out in eighteen years. Well that's the thing,

1035
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: like we should we need to talk about that another

1036
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: time because I love it too. And I love it

1037
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,479
Speaker 1: because it helps me, like, you know, things that aren't

1038
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,479
Speaker 1: so serious. I can laugh at things and it's funny

1039
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: and it's easy way to access that. It helps people

1040
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: be creative and it gives there's so much good to it.

1041
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: But I also see so much misinformation that I'm like,

1042
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: stop saying that. And how many clients send me TikTok's

1043
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: and are like, is this true? Why have you never

1044
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: told me that? And I'm like, because it's not true.

1045
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: I never said think it's not true. Also, people sending

1046
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: me TikTok and I'm like, I don't think that's information

1047
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: that I want you to have right now, Like it's

1048
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: information that I would give you in a session where

1049
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: we could process and all. There's so much to it.

1050
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 1: I talked about it all the time, but it can

1051
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 1: be used for good. There can there's I mean, I

1052
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: feel like there's a whole other hour on like the

1053
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: difference between expertise, knowledge and information. The Internet gives us information,

1054
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: but not expertise and not real knowledge because knowledge is structured. Right, No,

1055
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: this at this time and then this and then this.

1056
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, we can talk about that at another time. Okay,

1057
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: I can't wait. Then that last part. I'm like, okay,

1058
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: that's what I needed that in words. Well, thank you

1059
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: so much, thank you, talk soon, all right, bye,