WEBVTT - Cultural Asymmetry in Music Technology is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:24.596 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. It's kind 0:00:24.596 --> 0:00:27.676 of like forcing the entire world to eat with the 0:00:27.716 --> 0:00:31.356 same spices, or to speak with the same language or 0:00:31.356 --> 0:00:34.476 with the same dialect. You know, it's fairly common knowledge 0:00:34.476 --> 0:00:36.476 that a lot of genres of music borrow from one 0:00:36.516 --> 0:00:39.836 another to make their respective sounds. Hip hop borrows from 0:00:39.916 --> 0:00:43.076 R and B rock borrows from country. Songs are sampled, 0:00:43.236 --> 0:00:47.196 sometimes covered. The DNA that links most popular music tends 0:00:47.236 --> 0:00:51.116 to dominate and influence musical cultures around the world, even 0:00:51.156 --> 0:00:53.516 down to the very creation of new music and the 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:57.316 tools and instruments used to make it. Ultimately, we're talking 0:00:57.356 --> 0:01:01.396 about the supremacy of Western music theory, and Western music 0:01:01.476 --> 0:01:07.756 theory essentially has at its source a very specific kind 0:01:07.836 --> 0:01:11.796 of music making was made and funded by a very 0:01:11.796 --> 0:01:15.996 specific class in a specific period of time. It shouldn't 0:01:16.036 --> 0:01:17.636 be a surprise that even the music we hear in 0:01:17.636 --> 0:01:19.956 our heads and try to shepherd out into the world 0:01:20.196 --> 0:01:23.836 has already been colonized in many ways by Western influences. 0:01:24.316 --> 0:01:27.356 The very idea of what music is, who makes it, 0:01:27.676 --> 0:01:30.356 what are the classics are all questions that have been 0:01:30.396 --> 0:01:33.756 answered long before a creative sits down to make something new. 0:01:34.196 --> 0:01:36.276 We won't be able to move forward into the future 0:01:36.516 --> 0:01:41.156 where we can actually explore different kinds of music, making 0:01:41.236 --> 0:01:45.356 things that might be transcultural, that represent our commonalities and 0:01:45.396 --> 0:01:49.596 our differences in different ways. Kaya Malami is a musician, 0:01:49.756 --> 0:01:53.836 composer and researcher based in Berlin. He just released new 0:01:53.916 --> 0:01:58.476 software Apotomy and Lima, which are expanding the pathways of 0:01:58.596 --> 0:02:02.956 music creation beyond the dominant sound palette. Creators are given 0:02:02.956 --> 0:02:06.996 the tools to compose music using non Western tunings. The 0:02:07.156 --> 0:02:12.316 default settings are the act of choosing. It's just about 0:02:12.356 --> 0:02:14.516 that spark. If you can catch that spark and if 0:02:14.556 --> 0:02:19.196 you can let it have space to grow brighter, then 0:02:20.116 --> 0:02:25.156 you know people will automatically find themselves taking their own 0:02:25.196 --> 0:02:29.116 path and discovering the things that make them feel that magic. 0:02:34.156 --> 0:02:38.276 I'm Kayama Lami, and I believe that the cultural asymmetry 0:02:38.516 --> 0:02:52.276 in music technology is a problem we can solve. Cultural 0:02:52.316 --> 0:02:57.516 asymmetry is the fact that music technologies and the way 0:02:57.556 --> 0:03:02.996 that music is presented and represented tends to lean towards 0:03:03.396 --> 0:03:07.596 a Western conception of what music is rather than be 0:03:08.356 --> 0:03:13.476 something that is balanced where all musical cultures are on 0:03:13.516 --> 0:03:16.916 an equal footing in an equally respectful. Way, tell me 0:03:16.916 --> 0:03:20.516 a little bit about your earliest music memories. My earliest 0:03:20.596 --> 0:03:24.276 musical memory is learning to play the violin in Damascus, 0:03:24.956 --> 0:03:26.636 I think I had. I was seven or eight years 0:03:26.676 --> 0:03:28.796 old at the time, and then we moved to London 0:03:28.836 --> 0:03:31.356 when I was nine, and then I didn't really have 0:03:31.396 --> 0:03:37.556 any connection with my Arab identity per se, or at 0:03:37.596 --> 0:03:41.316 least the connections were tenuous at the time. But what 0:03:41.436 --> 0:03:45.236 I did notice was that the band Killing Joke released 0:03:45.236 --> 0:03:48.476 an album in the mid nineties called Pandemonium, on which 0:03:49.156 --> 0:03:52.916 a very famous Lebanese violinist his name is about Abdelaal 0:03:53.516 --> 0:04:02.516 he played, and particularly there's a track called Communion. That 0:04:02.716 --> 0:04:07.476 sound of this really heavy industrial music with this violin, 0:04:07.596 --> 0:04:14.316 this beautiful levantine, you know, Arabic violin scattered all over. 0:04:14.356 --> 0:04:26.876 It really really really got me. It just hit It 0:04:26.956 --> 0:04:30.756 hit a place in my spirit that I wasn't really 0:04:30.796 --> 0:04:33.716 aware of. Was that a moment that kind of pushed 0:04:33.716 --> 0:04:36.276 you forward into the type of work you're doing in 0:04:36.356 --> 0:04:40.396 music now? I think so what it showed me was 0:04:41.796 --> 0:04:46.436 that these desparate worlds, or these these musical worlds that 0:04:46.476 --> 0:04:50.116 I felt were desparate, could actually be pulled together. In 0:04:50.116 --> 0:04:53.916 some in some way could somehow combine together in a 0:04:53.956 --> 0:04:56.156 way that that didn't feel cheesy to me, and it 0:04:56.196 --> 0:05:00.156 didn't feel like exotic, you know, and that stayed with me, 0:05:00.516 --> 0:05:03.556 and I've been kind of searching for my own path 0:05:03.596 --> 0:05:07.156 along those lines for for many years since. So talk 0:05:07.196 --> 0:05:08.996 to me a little bit. You use the word ex 0:05:09.996 --> 0:05:12.036 when you're saying that you're you're talking about I think 0:05:12.036 --> 0:05:15.516 the ways in which world music and non Western music 0:05:15.876 --> 0:05:18.556 is pulled into Western music as a kind of a 0:05:18.596 --> 0:05:20.996 way to add make it a little spicy, which I 0:05:21.036 --> 0:05:23.956 don't necessarily think is the best method of using that music. 0:05:24.236 --> 0:05:25.756 Tell me a little bit about how that makes you 0:05:25.836 --> 0:05:29.196 feel like when you hear instances of music being used 0:05:29.236 --> 0:05:33.076 that way. I think it really depends on how For example, 0:05:34.236 --> 0:05:37.116 when you hear something like Big Pimpin by by Jay 0:05:37.196 --> 0:05:46.036 Z and Timberland, Big Pimpin, Baby Spin and Cheese, it 0:05:46.076 --> 0:05:52.236 feels really meaningful, right, yes, Whereas when you hear something 0:05:52.516 --> 0:05:55.876 when you hear something that like there was a band 0:05:55.956 --> 0:06:06.276 called Shakti by John McLaughlin and Zaki Hussein, it was 0:06:06.396 --> 0:06:09.916 more about the sound of those instruments rather than the 0:06:09.956 --> 0:06:13.516 feeling of that music. And that's what I always found 0:06:13.556 --> 0:06:18.236 a little bit more tokenistic and somehow exoticized. They just 0:06:18.316 --> 0:06:21.916 never quite it just never quite felt real enough to me. 0:06:21.916 --> 0:06:24.156 And it's funny for me to say that that something 0:06:24.196 --> 0:06:26.796 like Big Pimpin feels more authentic, But I think the 0:06:26.916 --> 0:06:29.396 reason why it feels more authentic is because it uses 0:06:29.396 --> 0:06:32.076 a sample. Therefore, the sound and the feeling of that 0:06:32.196 --> 0:06:36.076 music is present within the sound of that recreation or 0:06:36.076 --> 0:06:39.276 that or that reyear. Right, Whereas when you hear something 0:06:39.316 --> 0:06:41.916 like Shakti, all I hear is twelve ton equal temperament, 0:06:42.596 --> 0:06:48.036 jazz modalities, jazz tonalities with these very rigid time structures, 0:06:48.676 --> 0:06:51.316 but you have the sound of the tableau and the 0:06:51.396 --> 0:06:54.516 virtuosity of the tableau, which is never quite enough for me, 0:06:55.196 --> 0:06:56.916 you know you It's it's almost to be like when 0:06:57.196 --> 0:07:01.036 people take forward foods and they try to make like 0:07:01.076 --> 0:07:05.356 a taco out of stuff using using Indian ingredients, rather 0:07:05.396 --> 0:07:07.676 than letting these things like stand on their own as 0:07:07.716 --> 0:07:10.196 their own foods. It's like, why are you trying to 0:07:10.236 --> 0:07:12.996 shape it into something that's more familiar to you rather 0:07:13.076 --> 0:07:16.476 than using it and letting it shine on its own. Absolutely, 0:07:16.636 --> 0:07:19.236 So let's talk about them though, So talk about the 0:07:19.236 --> 0:07:21.276 ways in which you think Western theories have kind of 0:07:21.276 --> 0:07:26.836 colonized music, Well, ultimately, I think the issue is not 0:07:26.916 --> 0:07:31.236 that something has colonized something else. It's the remnants of 0:07:31.636 --> 0:07:37.676 colonialists and the supremacist mentality have maintained themselves and been 0:07:37.716 --> 0:07:40.996 inherited by the technologies that we use to make music 0:07:41.036 --> 0:07:45.116 today and the way that musics from around the world 0:07:45.156 --> 0:07:51.836 have been represented and marketed, and therefore that gaze or 0:07:51.836 --> 0:07:57.156 that perspective has been imprinted in people's minds. So when 0:07:57.156 --> 0:08:00.356 we got to the early eighties and digital synthesizers came through, 0:08:00.676 --> 0:08:03.636 and then we get into the world of digital audio 0:08:03.676 --> 0:08:07.996 workstations and using computers to make music, they were also 0:08:08.836 --> 0:08:14.356 based on these Western music series. One is the rhythmic grid, 0:08:14.436 --> 0:08:18.716 which you know divides a certain amount of time into 0:08:18.796 --> 0:08:23.156 equal divisions of time when dealing with digital instruments, but 0:08:23.276 --> 0:08:28.076 the same goes for tonality for pitch, where the octave 0:08:28.556 --> 0:08:33.036 is divided into twelve equal steps into twelve equal semitones 0:08:33.356 --> 0:08:43.316 and it sounds like this, okay. And then the minor scale, 0:08:51.636 --> 0:08:54.196 so like, can you give me examples of what it's 0:08:54.236 --> 0:08:56.876 like to get outside of the major minor scale if 0:08:56.916 --> 0:09:01.676 we're talking about getting outside of this supremacist rigidity of music. 0:09:01.996 --> 0:09:05.556 If we want to get out of this simplicity and 0:09:05.596 --> 0:09:09.716 the rigidity of the major minor, oftentimes will think about 0:09:09.756 --> 0:09:13.836 different kinds of scales, but actually the tuning itself is 0:09:14.636 --> 0:09:18.436 something that is really really powerful. So this is a 0:09:18.476 --> 0:09:30.716 Persian dust gar scale called Chahga, and the beauty of 0:09:30.756 --> 0:09:48.436 it is in these couple of intervals. That's really alien 0:09:48.516 --> 0:09:52.636 to yeah music in the world. Yeah, that sounds it 0:09:52.676 --> 0:09:54.676 sounds like you have a little bit more leeway, a 0:09:54.716 --> 0:09:57.676 little more latitude in that scale than there is in 0:09:57.716 --> 0:10:00.396 the traditional major scale. Can you give me another example 0:10:00.436 --> 0:10:04.156 of something else that's not so westernized? Yeah, sure, So 0:10:04.276 --> 0:10:08.916 let's have a listen to. This is an African idio. 0:10:09.356 --> 0:10:13.196 It's a kind of xylophone called the Empire used by 0:10:13.236 --> 0:10:17.676 the Naki Bembe Xylophone group from Kampala and Uganda. And 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:22.436 I analyze this tuning from a recording that they sent 0:10:22.516 --> 0:10:33.236 me and it sounds a bit like this. So that's 0:10:33.596 --> 0:10:44.916 a pentatonic scale that has really beautiful, beautiful character to it, 0:10:44.996 --> 0:10:47.756 and you imagine it when it's paid on something more percussive, 0:10:48.116 --> 0:10:55.956 especially lower down. Beautiful character. Oh that's amazing. I feel 0:10:55.956 --> 0:10:58.916 like I could listen to just you play different types 0:10:58.916 --> 0:11:02.436 of scales on different types of instruments all day. So 0:11:02.676 --> 0:11:05.276 how do we solve that, How do we break out 0:11:05.356 --> 0:11:08.836 of the ideas of this of those Western minds that 0:11:08.876 --> 0:11:11.316 we have towards music, and how do we open it 0:11:11.396 --> 0:11:14.236 up and allow people to be more creative and more 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:17.676 expressive and have more latitude to create unique music for 0:11:17.716 --> 0:11:22.436 everyone to enjoy. One thing is to find a way 0:11:22.756 --> 0:11:26.756 for developers to be able to implement these things with 0:11:26.956 --> 0:11:30.756 ease and simplicity, which already exists, but it just needs 0:11:30.796 --> 0:11:34.236 a kind of It just needs tying up and being 0:11:34.436 --> 0:11:37.836 presented and represented in the right way. Along with that, 0:11:38.276 --> 0:11:40.396 we need to be able to reach out to those 0:11:40.396 --> 0:11:44.316 developers and say to them that this is important. I 0:11:44.356 --> 0:11:48.476 don't think people really realize how much twelve tone equal temperament, 0:11:48.996 --> 0:11:53.716 like rigid digital twelve tone equal temperament, has really impacted 0:11:53.716 --> 0:11:55.916 and affected music all over the world. I mean, you 0:11:56.356 --> 0:11:59.236 listen to anything from the pop music of Latin America 0:11:59.356 --> 0:12:03.916 to the pop music of Central Asia. It's all mediated 0:12:03.996 --> 0:12:07.236 through this particular tuning system which represents a specific musical 0:12:07.276 --> 0:12:11.796 culture from a very specific period of time. And I 0:12:11.836 --> 0:12:15.036 don't think people realize how how damaging that has been, 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:18.156 not only on the music making, but also on audience's ears. 0:12:18.236 --> 0:12:23.236 You know, we've we've become so accustomed to hearing equal 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:26.116 temperament now that that most people hear anything else as 0:12:26.156 --> 0:12:28.956 either nostalgic or just weird and out of tune. And 0:12:28.996 --> 0:12:31.556 this is incredibly problematic because it's it's kind of like 0:12:31.916 --> 0:12:35.156 forcing the entire world to eat with the same spices, 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:38.236 or to speak with the same language or with the 0:12:38.276 --> 0:12:41.836 same dialect, you know. So we need to make people 0:12:41.916 --> 0:12:44.156 understand that this is an important issue and it needs 0:12:44.196 --> 0:12:46.716 to exist because without it existing, we won't be able 0:12:46.756 --> 0:12:48.716 to hear anything else, and we won't be able to 0:12:48.716 --> 0:12:51.556 move forward into the future where we can actually explore 0:12:52.196 --> 0:12:56.876 different kinds of music making, things that might be transcultural, 0:12:57.036 --> 0:13:00.516 that represent our commonalities and our differences in different ways. 0:13:00.876 --> 0:13:03.276 So we need these tools in order to be able 0:13:03.276 --> 0:13:06.556 to imagine something else. That's one thing, and the other 0:13:06.556 --> 0:13:09.596 side of it is actually education. Aside from the fact 0:13:09.636 --> 0:13:13.916 that these capabilities don't exist in the technology, we also 0:13:14.356 --> 0:13:18.276 don't learn about them in music education, and information about 0:13:18.316 --> 0:13:23.436 them is very scattered. It's very much a Western perspective, narrative, 0:13:23.996 --> 0:13:28.876 and trying to break that rigidity of Western music theory 0:13:28.876 --> 0:13:32.676 and Western music education, which is not only a present 0:13:33.156 --> 0:13:36.756 in you know, the West as a whole, but has 0:13:36.836 --> 0:13:40.556 also imposed itself on the rest of the world because 0:13:40.596 --> 0:13:45.716 of colonization, because of imperialism, because of cultural hegemony. We 0:13:45.796 --> 0:13:49.436 need to make sure that these musical ideas from all 0:13:49.436 --> 0:13:52.916 these different cultures are represented in a way that's equal 0:13:52.956 --> 0:13:57.836 to how Western music Western composers have been. There's no 0:13:57.916 --> 0:14:02.436 reason why everybody has to learn about Bach and Mozart 0:14:02.556 --> 0:14:06.516 and doesn't get to learn about Paco de Lusia and 0:14:07.476 --> 0:14:10.436 ali akbar Khan. You know what I'm I think it's 0:14:10.436 --> 0:14:13.956 about valuing all of these musics from all over the 0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:17.276 world and their ability to enrich our lives, and to 0:14:17.396 --> 0:14:21.756 treat all of these musical traditions on equal ground, not 0:14:21.836 --> 0:14:24.756 that one is superior to another just because it has 0:14:24.836 --> 0:14:29.236 harmony and you know, a huge orchestra of instruments behind it. 0:14:30.076 --> 0:14:31.796 I mean that still has a lot to do with 0:14:31.836 --> 0:14:35.836 the decision makers and who decides what is music or 0:14:35.836 --> 0:14:38.116 what is good music. Because I think that same type 0:14:38.156 --> 0:14:41.276 of that same type of oppression exists when we're just 0:14:41.316 --> 0:14:43.836 talking about different styles of music. You know, I've heard 0:14:43.876 --> 0:14:46.636 people say things like hip hop isn't real music, or 0:14:46.676 --> 0:14:49.036 this pop song isn't a real song, or so on 0:14:49.116 --> 0:14:50.756 and so forth. When it comes to the types of 0:14:50.836 --> 0:14:54.836 music that we're deciding is real and isn't real. I 0:14:54.876 --> 0:14:56.956 think you bringing up the example of hip hop is 0:14:56.996 --> 0:15:03.556 really really important. It's taken years years for electronic music makers, 0:15:03.676 --> 0:15:06.956 beat makers, hip hop artists to be respected in the 0:15:07.036 --> 0:15:12.156 same way that you know, Western classical composers are respected. Again. 0:15:12.236 --> 0:15:15.356 It boils down to this supremacy, you know, we are 0:15:15.396 --> 0:15:19.436 always taught again or there's these ideas that are embedded 0:15:19.476 --> 0:15:21.356 in our minds from an early age that if you 0:15:21.436 --> 0:15:24.996 want to be a professional, capable musician, you need to 0:15:24.996 --> 0:15:27.476 be able to read music, you need to understand counterpoint 0:15:27.516 --> 0:15:32.236 and harmony. Black musicians, whether they be African American jazz 0:15:32.316 --> 0:15:35.756 musicians or hip hop artists, have had to suffer this 0:15:35.996 --> 0:15:39.596 for a very long time too. And the parallel is there. 0:15:39.636 --> 0:15:41.756 It's about the inequality. And I think what you brought 0:15:41.836 --> 0:15:43.556 up back in Mozart, what it made me think of 0:15:43.716 --> 0:15:45.516 is when we're talking about the music that we're teaching 0:15:45.516 --> 0:15:48.316 the children, what steps do you think that we can 0:15:48.396 --> 0:15:52.876 take to kind of unlock the possibilities with children, rather 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:54.756 than kind of just teaching them four four time and 0:15:54.796 --> 0:15:57.836 back in Mozart and kind of bringing in an African 0:15:57.916 --> 0:16:00.836 drummer and say ooh, isn't this fun and thinking of 0:16:00.876 --> 0:16:03.876 that as exotic? What can we do to actually make 0:16:04.196 --> 0:16:07.396 all of music more accessible across the world rather than 0:16:07.436 --> 0:16:10.276 just one view of it. You know, teaching a bunch 0:16:10.316 --> 0:16:13.196 of school kids how to bang on a gembe for 0:16:13.236 --> 0:16:17.076 an afternoon is just not good enough. It's tokenistic, it's exotic. 0:16:17.116 --> 0:16:19.156 It takes the boxes and that's all it does. It 0:16:19.196 --> 0:16:22.596 doesn't get into the core. Whereas if you were to 0:16:22.676 --> 0:16:27.676 bring an African master musician and allow him the time 0:16:27.716 --> 0:16:30.076 and space to be able to talk about groove, to 0:16:30.116 --> 0:16:32.436 be able to talk about polyrhythms, to be able to 0:16:32.436 --> 0:16:34.876 talk about interlocking rhythms, to be able to talk about 0:16:35.036 --> 0:16:40.916 tonality and musicality and pitch and scales and tunings in 0:16:40.956 --> 0:16:43.396 a more in depth way, and then to be able 0:16:43.476 --> 0:16:48.156 to represent those ideas using modern sounds, using digital tools. 0:16:48.716 --> 0:16:51.516 That sounds like I'm demanding a lot, or it's a 0:16:51.516 --> 0:16:54.716 bit of a utopian daydream, but I think that the 0:16:54.756 --> 0:16:57.676 technology is there to allow for that, and that we 0:16:57.796 --> 0:17:00.636 have plenty of musicians all over the globe who are 0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:03.676 more than capable of teaching those kind of ideas, and 0:17:03.716 --> 0:17:07.156 so marrying the two together for me, would be the 0:17:07.196 --> 0:17:10.396 first step. And I really don't think it's so difficult. 0:17:10.596 --> 0:17:16.276 I think it would be quite reasonable to expect something 0:17:16.316 --> 0:17:27.236 like that to exist. So tell me a little bit 0:17:27.316 --> 0:17:30.836 how your software is solving that problem as well. In January, 0:17:31.276 --> 0:17:35.636 I released two browser based softwares in collaboration with the 0:17:35.716 --> 0:17:39.916 Creative Studio called Counterpoint. It's run by Tera Parvan and 0:17:40.596 --> 0:17:44.476 Samuel Diggins. One is called Lima and what's called Apotomy. 0:17:44.916 --> 0:17:49.796 Lima is a tool that allows very instant, intuitive access 0:17:49.876 --> 0:17:54.756 to tunings from all over the world, and it runs 0:17:54.756 --> 0:18:01.396 in a web browser. So it's really really convenient for musicians, researchers, composers, 0:18:02.276 --> 0:18:07.036 educators to use because all you need is a computer 0:18:07.316 --> 0:18:12.276 and you can explore or create here immediately what these 0:18:12.316 --> 0:18:15.116 different tonalities sound like. So the examples I play to 0:18:15.156 --> 0:18:19.236 you earlier were me just switching through some different presets 0:18:19.276 --> 0:18:22.236 that are publicly available in this software. That was a 0:18:22.276 --> 0:18:29.156 major step towards trying to really make this information easier 0:18:29.196 --> 0:18:33.556 for people to engage with. Now, Apotomy is a slightly 0:18:33.556 --> 0:18:37.076 different beast. It's more of a music making environment based 0:18:37.076 --> 0:18:41.676 on generative music, which essentially is music based on parameters 0:18:41.916 --> 0:18:45.996 and probabilities. But what differentiates it from any other kind 0:18:46.036 --> 0:18:50.356 of generative music software is that it's directly focused on 0:18:50.476 --> 0:18:55.036 these transcultural scales and different tunings from all over the world. 0:18:55.476 --> 0:18:57.836 I know we're on a podcast that nobody can see 0:18:57.876 --> 0:18:59.916 what I'm doing, but what I've done is I've launched 0:18:59.956 --> 0:19:05.676 a browser with Apotomy running. I've selected Arabic tuning by 0:19:06.116 --> 0:19:09.716 Alpha Rabi from the tenth century, and I'm going to 0:19:09.836 --> 0:19:14.516 choose a very particular characteristic macam, which is a kind 0:19:14.556 --> 0:19:28.476 of mode called rajah. I love it. And so what 0:19:28.516 --> 0:19:31.716 you would do is choose a tuning system and a 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:33.996 subset that you want to work in, and then you 0:19:34.036 --> 0:19:36.236 have a bunch of sliders and buttons and things that 0:19:36.236 --> 0:19:39.356 you press in order to change the probabilistic nature of 0:19:39.396 --> 0:19:42.596 the music that's going to come out. This is very 0:19:42.676 --> 0:19:48.476 very simple. As a sound, I'm going to just craft 0:19:48.516 --> 0:19:50.636 it a little bit more, a little bit of delay 0:19:52.396 --> 0:20:01.276 and gives that a little bit more character. And now 0:20:01.636 --> 0:20:08.316 by just trying the sliders and changing some of the parameters. 0:20:08.356 --> 0:20:17.116 I can start to generate these different patterns, and then 0:20:17.116 --> 0:20:20.316 you use a couple of embedded web based synthesizers to 0:20:20.716 --> 0:20:23.676 create that music. That's just one track. I'm going to 0:20:23.716 --> 0:20:30.436 bring in a second track now, and I'm gonna make 0:20:30.516 --> 0:20:43.836 this run lower. And these are all options that are 0:20:43.876 --> 0:20:47.476 available in the software exactly. It's it's a kind of 0:20:47.716 --> 0:20:51.436 modular framework. So I'm going to quickly change the sound 0:20:51.476 --> 0:20:54.916 now to something that might be a bit more interesting. 0:20:59.036 --> 0:21:03.596 Oh now I'm getting a very eighties movie, eighties action movie. Exactly. 0:21:04.036 --> 0:21:13.156 These synths are all quite eighties. So let's just add 0:21:13.196 --> 0:21:21.396 another guitar here on that on the other side. So 0:21:21.636 --> 0:21:23.876 it all feels about eighties at the moment because we're 0:21:23.916 --> 0:21:29.836 just using these very simple rhythmic things structures. But I 0:21:29.836 --> 0:21:35.236 can also switch over to a different kind of rhythmic construction, 0:21:35.556 --> 0:21:40.276 which are called Euclidean rhythms. You can hear these beautiful 0:21:40.476 --> 0:21:54.516 poly rhythms. I'll stop there just otherwise we can really 0:21:54.676 --> 0:21:58.156 be here for hours. I could have never heard this 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:03.596 kind of music using an Arabic macom being done so quickly, 0:22:03.716 --> 0:22:06.796 so easily, just in a web brow not even in 0:22:06.836 --> 0:22:10.556 a web browser, in any kind of digital software environment before. So, 0:22:11.156 --> 0:22:13.316 even though it sounds a little bit cheesy and a 0:22:13.356 --> 0:22:16.156 bit dated in a bit eighties, what it does is 0:22:16.156 --> 0:22:19.756 it allows my imagination to go elsewhere, so that when 0:22:19.796 --> 0:22:22.196 I come to make my own music, I have this 0:22:22.636 --> 0:22:25.636 weird stuff in the back of my mind that allows 0:22:25.636 --> 0:22:28.036 me to think about my own music and my own 0:22:28.076 --> 0:22:29.876 musical culture in a different way, in a way that's 0:22:29.876 --> 0:22:32.516 a little bit more meaningful and a bit different, a 0:22:32.516 --> 0:22:35.396 bit more progressive maybe. So let me let me add 0:22:35.596 --> 0:22:38.356 your professional musician obviously, and you know what you're doing 0:22:38.716 --> 0:22:41.436 jumping into the software. How do you think that this 0:22:41.476 --> 0:22:44.276 would work for a beginner like somebody that's just like 0:22:44.516 --> 0:22:49.076 trying to get acquaintance with these new tonalities and new rhythms. 0:22:49.436 --> 0:22:51.396 What would be the best method for them to use 0:22:51.436 --> 0:22:54.196 this software. I've spoken to a lot of people who 0:22:54.276 --> 0:22:58.116 didn't know much about this subject and who were using 0:22:58.116 --> 0:23:00.556 these tools for the first time, and I think everybody 0:23:00.796 --> 0:23:07.236 found them intuitive enough for them to have their imagination stimulated. 0:23:08.036 --> 0:23:11.596 The beauty about both lima and apotomy is that rather 0:23:11.676 --> 0:23:16.316 than having presets and defaults that are biased in any way, 0:23:16.916 --> 0:23:20.516 or let's just say non neutral in some way. The 0:23:20.716 --> 0:23:25.756 default settings are the act of choosing. That's something that's 0:23:25.756 --> 0:23:29.436 really important because it gives users a sense of agency. 0:23:29.596 --> 0:23:33.916 So what I would expect from and non professional users 0:23:34.196 --> 0:23:36.956 is for them to get excited about this and to 0:23:37.076 --> 0:23:41.556 just explore and discover by doing, and then hopefully be 0:23:41.636 --> 0:23:45.716 stimulated enough to take that interest further. It's just about 0:23:45.756 --> 0:23:47.916 that spark. If you can catch that spark, and if 0:23:47.916 --> 0:23:52.756 you can let it have space to grow brighter, then 0:23:53.516 --> 0:23:58.516 you know people will automatically find themselves taking their own 0:23:58.596 --> 0:24:02.516 path and discovering the things that make them feel that magic. 0:24:03.196 --> 0:24:05.236 There's one thing I think the limitation is that this 0:24:05.436 --> 0:24:08.196 is free software, and it is browser based, and it's 0:24:08.236 --> 0:24:12.316 hard to you know, beat out software like ableton Live 0:24:12.436 --> 0:24:15.956 or fl Studio or other places bits of music making 0:24:15.956 --> 0:24:18.716 software that you can use and without marketing budgets with 0:24:18.756 --> 0:24:22.276 those softwares. Are you ever concerned that maybe the word 0:24:22.316 --> 0:24:24.996 won't get out that things like this exist for people 0:24:24.996 --> 0:24:28.796 to use, And do you ever consider what the future 0:24:28.836 --> 0:24:31.476 looks like using this tool going forward? With those factors 0:24:31.476 --> 0:24:35.996 in mind, you're right to say that commercial software run 0:24:36.116 --> 0:24:39.316 by global companies with a lot of money for marketing 0:24:39.316 --> 0:24:42.716 and development is definitely not a beast that can be 0:24:43.396 --> 0:24:46.356 tackled with something like this that runs in the browser 0:24:46.436 --> 0:24:50.076 and it's for free. But this was a conscious decision. 0:24:50.636 --> 0:24:53.916 I don't think that those technologies are are bad and 0:24:53.996 --> 0:24:56.876 need to be replaced by something else. I just think 0:24:56.916 --> 0:25:02.956 that they're missing a really crucial element which is imperative 0:25:03.316 --> 0:25:08.836 for non Anglo European musical cultures, and without them, music 0:25:09.236 --> 0:25:12.596 is poorer as a result. Matt and Robert's, a great 0:25:12.756 --> 0:25:17.476 American saxophonist, said during a panel discussion I participated in 0:25:17.476 --> 0:25:20.476 with her a while ago, she said that people of 0:25:20.516 --> 0:25:23.516 color need to have to work harder. That's just the 0:25:23.636 --> 0:25:28.196 nature of the way that systems have been constructed. And 0:25:28.236 --> 0:25:30.436 what I love about these tools is that they actually 0:25:30.476 --> 0:25:33.556 make our lives much much easier, make it much easier 0:25:33.556 --> 0:25:37.596 to create and to develop ideas and to experiment and 0:25:37.636 --> 0:25:41.236 to explore than it was before. So they're great stimulants 0:25:41.236 --> 0:25:43.716 for the musical imagination, and I hope that that that 0:25:43.836 --> 0:25:49.116 in itself can be something that will lead to something else, 0:25:49.196 --> 0:25:52.596 whether that be more great music or more great tools, 0:25:53.356 --> 0:26:03.236 only time will tell. What are a few things that 0:26:03.276 --> 0:26:06.076 listeners can do to help continue your work. Please just 0:26:06.276 --> 0:26:09.916 use the tools, tell your friends about them, and explore 0:26:09.996 --> 0:26:14.916 these ideas. Ultimately, I'm a fan of music, and a 0:26:14.996 --> 0:26:17.516 big part of making these tools is because I'm keen 0:26:17.636 --> 0:26:22.916 and desperate actually to hear more music that has these 0:26:23.036 --> 0:26:26.116 kind of energies and these kinds of tonalities. So please 0:26:26.196 --> 0:26:29.716 just make music, tell your friends and let me know 0:26:29.836 --> 0:26:36.676 so that I can hear it. Hi'm Alami as a musician, composer, 0:26:36.676 --> 0:26:40.196 and researcher and creator of Apotomy and Lima. We included 0:26:40.236 --> 0:26:42.076 links to both at our show notes, so feel free 0:26:42.116 --> 0:26:44.436 to jump in there and play around and see what 0:26:44.516 --> 0:26:47.316 you could create. Next week, go Solvable, We're talking about 0:26:47.316 --> 0:26:49.676 a different set of digital tools that are solving problems. 0:26:50.156 --> 0:26:53.476 Able Gamers is an organization that is making gaming devices 0:26:53.556 --> 0:26:56.836 available and accessible for everyone. I hope you'll join us 0:26:56.836 --> 0:27:02.036 for that conversation. Solvable Senior producer is Jocelyn Frank, Research 0:27:02.236 --> 0:27:06.596 by David Jah, Booking by Lisa Dunn, Our managing producer 0:27:06.756 --> 0:27:09.916 is Sasha Matthias, and our executive producer is Mio Lobel. 0:27:10.956 --> 0:27:13.996 Special thanks to Hiam Alami and his musical collaborators for 0:27:14.036 --> 0:27:18.156 sharing audio from the Apotomy live performance from CTM twenty 0:27:18.236 --> 0:27:20.676 twenty one. There's a link to their full performance in 0:27:20.676 --> 0:27:24.076 our show notes. I highly recommend that you check that out. 0:27:25.076 --> 0:27:28.236 Solvable is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like 0:27:28.356 --> 0:27:31.756 the show, please remember to share, rate, and review. It 0:27:31.796 --> 0:27:34.276 helps us find our way to the ears of new listeners. 0:27:35.156 --> 0:27:38.316 You can find Pushkin Podcasts wherever you listen, including on 0:27:38.356 --> 0:27:42.956 the iHeartRadio app and Apple Podcasts. I'm Ronald Young Junior. 0:27:43.516 --> 0:27:44.316 Thanks for listening.