1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:24,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. It's kind 2 00:00:24,596 --> 00:00:27,676 Speaker 1: of like forcing the entire world to eat with the 3 00:00:27,716 --> 00:00:31,356 Speaker 1: same spices, or to speak with the same language or 4 00:00:31,356 --> 00:00:34,476 Speaker 1: with the same dialect. You know, it's fairly common knowledge 5 00:00:34,476 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 1: that a lot of genres of music borrow from one 6 00:00:36,516 --> 00:00:39,836 Speaker 1: another to make their respective sounds. Hip hop borrows from 7 00:00:39,916 --> 00:00:43,076 Speaker 1: R and B rock borrows from country. Songs are sampled, 8 00:00:43,236 --> 00:00:47,196 Speaker 1: sometimes covered. The DNA that links most popular music tends 9 00:00:47,236 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 1: to dominate and influence musical cultures around the world, even 10 00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:53,516 Speaker 1: down to the very creation of new music and the 11 00:00:53,556 --> 00:00:57,316 Speaker 1: tools and instruments used to make it. Ultimately, we're talking 12 00:00:57,356 --> 00:01:01,396 Speaker 1: about the supremacy of Western music theory, and Western music 13 00:01:01,476 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: theory essentially has at its source a very specific kind 14 00:01:07,836 --> 00:01:11,796 Speaker 1: of music making was made and funded by a very 15 00:01:11,796 --> 00:01:15,996 Speaker 1: specific class in a specific period of time. It shouldn't 16 00:01:16,036 --> 00:01:17,636 Speaker 1: be a surprise that even the music we hear in 17 00:01:17,636 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 1: our heads and try to shepherd out into the world 18 00:01:20,196 --> 00:01:23,836 Speaker 1: has already been colonized in many ways by Western influences. 19 00:01:24,316 --> 00:01:27,356 Speaker 1: The very idea of what music is, who makes it, 20 00:01:27,676 --> 00:01:30,356 Speaker 1: what are the classics are all questions that have been 21 00:01:30,396 --> 00:01:33,756 Speaker 1: answered long before a creative sits down to make something new. 22 00:01:34,196 --> 00:01:36,276 Speaker 1: We won't be able to move forward into the future 23 00:01:36,516 --> 00:01:41,156 Speaker 1: where we can actually explore different kinds of music, making 24 00:01:41,236 --> 00:01:45,356 Speaker 1: things that might be transcultural, that represent our commonalities and 25 00:01:45,396 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 1: our differences in different ways. Kaya Malami is a musician, 26 00:01:49,756 --> 00:01:53,836 Speaker 1: composer and researcher based in Berlin. He just released new 27 00:01:53,916 --> 00:01:58,476 Speaker 1: software Apotomy and Lima, which are expanding the pathways of 28 00:01:58,596 --> 00:02:02,956 Speaker 1: music creation beyond the dominant sound palette. Creators are given 29 00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:06,996 Speaker 1: the tools to compose music using non Western tunings. The 30 00:02:07,156 --> 00:02:12,316 Speaker 1: default settings are the act of choosing. It's just about 31 00:02:12,356 --> 00:02:14,516 Speaker 1: that spark. If you can catch that spark and if 32 00:02:14,556 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 1: you can let it have space to grow brighter, then 33 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:25,156 Speaker 1: you know people will automatically find themselves taking their own 34 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:29,116 Speaker 1: path and discovering the things that make them feel that magic. 35 00:02:34,156 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 1: I'm Kayama Lami, and I believe that the cultural asymmetry 36 00:02:38,516 --> 00:02:52,276 Speaker 1: in music technology is a problem we can solve. Cultural 37 00:02:52,316 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 1: asymmetry is the fact that music technologies and the way 38 00:02:57,556 --> 00:03:02,996 Speaker 1: that music is presented and represented tends to lean towards 39 00:03:03,396 --> 00:03:07,596 Speaker 1: a Western conception of what music is rather than be 40 00:03:08,356 --> 00:03:13,476 Speaker 1: something that is balanced where all musical cultures are on 41 00:03:13,516 --> 00:03:16,916 Speaker 1: an equal footing in an equally respectful. Way, tell me 42 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:20,516 Speaker 1: a little bit about your earliest music memories. My earliest 43 00:03:20,596 --> 00:03:24,276 Speaker 1: musical memory is learning to play the violin in Damascus, 44 00:03:24,956 --> 00:03:26,636 Speaker 1: I think I had. I was seven or eight years 45 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:28,796 Speaker 1: old at the time, and then we moved to London 46 00:03:28,836 --> 00:03:31,356 Speaker 1: when I was nine, and then I didn't really have 47 00:03:31,396 --> 00:03:37,556 Speaker 1: any connection with my Arab identity per se, or at 48 00:03:37,596 --> 00:03:41,316 Speaker 1: least the connections were tenuous at the time. But what 49 00:03:41,436 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 1: I did notice was that the band Killing Joke released 50 00:03:45,236 --> 00:03:48,476 Speaker 1: an album in the mid nineties called Pandemonium, on which 51 00:03:49,156 --> 00:03:52,916 Speaker 1: a very famous Lebanese violinist his name is about Abdelaal 52 00:03:53,516 --> 00:04:02,516 Speaker 1: he played, and particularly there's a track called Communion. That 53 00:04:02,716 --> 00:04:07,476 Speaker 1: sound of this really heavy industrial music with this violin, 54 00:04:07,596 --> 00:04:14,316 Speaker 1: this beautiful levantine, you know, Arabic violin scattered all over. 55 00:04:14,356 --> 00:04:26,876 Speaker 1: It really really really got me. It just hit It 56 00:04:26,956 --> 00:04:30,756 Speaker 1: hit a place in my spirit that I wasn't really 57 00:04:30,796 --> 00:04:33,716 Speaker 1: aware of. Was that a moment that kind of pushed 58 00:04:33,716 --> 00:04:36,276 Speaker 1: you forward into the type of work you're doing in 59 00:04:36,356 --> 00:04:40,396 Speaker 1: music now? I think so what it showed me was 60 00:04:41,796 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 1: that these desparate worlds, or these these musical worlds that 61 00:04:46,476 --> 00:04:50,116 Speaker 1: I felt were desparate, could actually be pulled together. In 62 00:04:50,116 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 1: some in some way could somehow combine together in a 63 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:56,156 Speaker 1: way that that didn't feel cheesy to me, and it 64 00:04:56,196 --> 00:05:00,156 Speaker 1: didn't feel like exotic, you know, and that stayed with me, 65 00:05:00,516 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 1: and I've been kind of searching for my own path 66 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:07,156 Speaker 1: along those lines for for many years since. So talk 67 00:05:07,196 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 1: to me a little bit. You use the word ex 68 00:05:09,996 --> 00:05:12,036 Speaker 1: when you're saying that you're you're talking about I think 69 00:05:12,036 --> 00:05:15,516 Speaker 1: the ways in which world music and non Western music 70 00:05:15,876 --> 00:05:18,556 Speaker 1: is pulled into Western music as a kind of a 71 00:05:18,596 --> 00:05:20,996 Speaker 1: way to add make it a little spicy, which I 72 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:23,956 Speaker 1: don't necessarily think is the best method of using that music. 73 00:05:24,236 --> 00:05:25,756 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about how that makes you 74 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:29,196 Speaker 1: feel like when you hear instances of music being used 75 00:05:29,236 --> 00:05:33,076 Speaker 1: that way. I think it really depends on how For example, 76 00:05:34,236 --> 00:05:37,116 Speaker 1: when you hear something like Big Pimpin by by Jay 77 00:05:37,196 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: Z and Timberland, Big Pimpin, Baby Spin and Cheese, it 78 00:05:46,076 --> 00:05:52,236 Speaker 1: feels really meaningful, right, yes, Whereas when you hear something 79 00:05:52,516 --> 00:05:55,876 Speaker 1: when you hear something that like there was a band 80 00:05:55,956 --> 00:06:06,276 Speaker 1: called Shakti by John McLaughlin and Zaki Hussein, it was 81 00:06:06,396 --> 00:06:09,916 Speaker 1: more about the sound of those instruments rather than the 82 00:06:09,956 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 1: feeling of that music. And that's what I always found 83 00:06:13,556 --> 00:06:18,236 Speaker 1: a little bit more tokenistic and somehow exoticized. They just 84 00:06:18,316 --> 00:06:21,916 Speaker 1: never quite it just never quite felt real enough to me. 85 00:06:21,916 --> 00:06:24,156 Speaker 1: And it's funny for me to say that that something 86 00:06:24,196 --> 00:06:26,796 Speaker 1: like Big Pimpin feels more authentic, But I think the 87 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:29,396 Speaker 1: reason why it feels more authentic is because it uses 88 00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 1: a sample. Therefore, the sound and the feeling of that 89 00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:36,076 Speaker 1: music is present within the sound of that recreation or 90 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:39,276 Speaker 1: that or that reyear. Right, Whereas when you hear something 91 00:06:39,316 --> 00:06:41,916 Speaker 1: like Shakti, all I hear is twelve ton equal temperament, 92 00:06:42,596 --> 00:06:48,036 Speaker 1: jazz modalities, jazz tonalities with these very rigid time structures, 93 00:06:48,676 --> 00:06:51,316 Speaker 1: but you have the sound of the tableau and the 94 00:06:51,396 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 1: virtuosity of the tableau, which is never quite enough for me, 95 00:06:55,196 --> 00:06:56,916 Speaker 1: you know you It's it's almost to be like when 96 00:06:57,196 --> 00:07:01,036 Speaker 1: people take forward foods and they try to make like 97 00:07:01,076 --> 00:07:05,356 Speaker 1: a taco out of stuff using using Indian ingredients, rather 98 00:07:05,396 --> 00:07:07,676 Speaker 1: than letting these things like stand on their own as 99 00:07:07,716 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 1: their own foods. It's like, why are you trying to 100 00:07:10,236 --> 00:07:12,996 Speaker 1: shape it into something that's more familiar to you rather 101 00:07:13,076 --> 00:07:16,476 Speaker 1: than using it and letting it shine on its own. Absolutely, 102 00:07:16,636 --> 00:07:19,236 Speaker 1: So let's talk about them though, So talk about the 103 00:07:19,236 --> 00:07:21,276 Speaker 1: ways in which you think Western theories have kind of 104 00:07:21,276 --> 00:07:26,836 Speaker 1: colonized music, Well, ultimately, I think the issue is not 105 00:07:26,916 --> 00:07:31,236 Speaker 1: that something has colonized something else. It's the remnants of 106 00:07:31,636 --> 00:07:37,676 Speaker 1: colonialists and the supremacist mentality have maintained themselves and been 107 00:07:37,716 --> 00:07:40,996 Speaker 1: inherited by the technologies that we use to make music 108 00:07:41,036 --> 00:07:45,116 Speaker 1: today and the way that musics from around the world 109 00:07:45,156 --> 00:07:51,836 Speaker 1: have been represented and marketed, and therefore that gaze or 110 00:07:51,836 --> 00:07:57,156 Speaker 1: that perspective has been imprinted in people's minds. So when 111 00:07:57,156 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 1: we got to the early eighties and digital synthesizers came through, 112 00:08:00,676 --> 00:08:03,636 Speaker 1: and then we get into the world of digital audio 113 00:08:03,676 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 1: workstations and using computers to make music, they were also 114 00:08:08,836 --> 00:08:14,356 Speaker 1: based on these Western music series. One is the rhythmic grid, 115 00:08:14,436 --> 00:08:18,716 Speaker 1: which you know divides a certain amount of time into 116 00:08:18,796 --> 00:08:23,156 Speaker 1: equal divisions of time when dealing with digital instruments, but 117 00:08:23,276 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 1: the same goes for tonality for pitch, where the octave 118 00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:33,036 Speaker 1: is divided into twelve equal steps into twelve equal semitones 119 00:08:33,356 --> 00:08:43,316 Speaker 1: and it sounds like this, okay. And then the minor scale, 120 00:08:51,636 --> 00:08:54,196 Speaker 1: so like, can you give me examples of what it's 121 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:56,876 Speaker 1: like to get outside of the major minor scale if 122 00:08:56,916 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 1: we're talking about getting outside of this supremacist rigidity of music. 123 00:09:01,996 --> 00:09:05,556 Speaker 1: If we want to get out of this simplicity and 124 00:09:05,596 --> 00:09:09,716 Speaker 1: the rigidity of the major minor, oftentimes will think about 125 00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:13,836 Speaker 1: different kinds of scales, but actually the tuning itself is 126 00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:18,436 Speaker 1: something that is really really powerful. So this is a 127 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:30,716 Speaker 1: Persian dust gar scale called Chahga, and the beauty of 128 00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:48,436 Speaker 1: it is in these couple of intervals. That's really alien 129 00:09:48,516 --> 00:09:52,636 Speaker 1: to yeah music in the world. Yeah, that sounds it 130 00:09:52,676 --> 00:09:54,676 Speaker 1: sounds like you have a little bit more leeway, a 131 00:09:54,716 --> 00:09:57,676 Speaker 1: little more latitude in that scale than there is in 132 00:09:57,716 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 1: the traditional major scale. Can you give me another example 133 00:10:00,436 --> 00:10:04,156 Speaker 1: of something else that's not so westernized? Yeah, sure, So 134 00:10:04,276 --> 00:10:08,916 Speaker 1: let's have a listen to. This is an African idio. 135 00:10:09,356 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 1: It's a kind of xylophone called the Empire used by 136 00:10:13,236 --> 00:10:17,676 Speaker 1: the Naki Bembe Xylophone group from Kampala and Uganda. And 137 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:22,436 Speaker 1: I analyze this tuning from a recording that they sent 138 00:10:22,516 --> 00:10:33,236 Speaker 1: me and it sounds a bit like this. So that's 139 00:10:33,596 --> 00:10:44,916 Speaker 1: a pentatonic scale that has really beautiful, beautiful character to it, 140 00:10:44,996 --> 00:10:47,756 Speaker 1: and you imagine it when it's paid on something more percussive, 141 00:10:48,116 --> 00:10:55,956 Speaker 1: especially lower down. Beautiful character. Oh that's amazing. I feel 142 00:10:55,956 --> 00:10:58,916 Speaker 1: like I could listen to just you play different types 143 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:02,436 Speaker 1: of scales on different types of instruments all day. So 144 00:11:02,676 --> 00:11:05,276 Speaker 1: how do we solve that, How do we break out 145 00:11:05,356 --> 00:11:08,836 Speaker 1: of the ideas of this of those Western minds that 146 00:11:08,876 --> 00:11:11,316 Speaker 1: we have towards music, and how do we open it 147 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:14,236 Speaker 1: up and allow people to be more creative and more 148 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:17,676 Speaker 1: expressive and have more latitude to create unique music for 149 00:11:17,716 --> 00:11:22,436 Speaker 1: everyone to enjoy. One thing is to find a way 150 00:11:22,756 --> 00:11:26,756 Speaker 1: for developers to be able to implement these things with 151 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:30,756 Speaker 1: ease and simplicity, which already exists, but it just needs 152 00:11:30,796 --> 00:11:34,236 Speaker 1: a kind of It just needs tying up and being 153 00:11:34,436 --> 00:11:37,836 Speaker 1: presented and represented in the right way. Along with that, 154 00:11:38,276 --> 00:11:40,396 Speaker 1: we need to be able to reach out to those 155 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 1: developers and say to them that this is important. I 156 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:48,476 Speaker 1: don't think people really realize how much twelve tone equal temperament, 157 00:11:48,996 --> 00:11:53,716 Speaker 1: like rigid digital twelve tone equal temperament, has really impacted 158 00:11:53,716 --> 00:11:55,916 Speaker 1: and affected music all over the world. I mean, you 159 00:11:56,356 --> 00:11:59,236 Speaker 1: listen to anything from the pop music of Latin America 160 00:11:59,356 --> 00:12:03,916 Speaker 1: to the pop music of Central Asia. It's all mediated 161 00:12:03,996 --> 00:12:07,236 Speaker 1: through this particular tuning system which represents a specific musical 162 00:12:07,276 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 1: culture from a very specific period of time. And I 163 00:12:11,836 --> 00:12:15,036 Speaker 1: don't think people realize how how damaging that has been, 164 00:12:15,116 --> 00:12:18,156 Speaker 1: not only on the music making, but also on audience's ears. 165 00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:23,236 Speaker 1: You know, we've we've become so accustomed to hearing equal 166 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:26,116 Speaker 1: temperament now that that most people hear anything else as 167 00:12:26,156 --> 00:12:28,956 Speaker 1: either nostalgic or just weird and out of tune. And 168 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:31,556 Speaker 1: this is incredibly problematic because it's it's kind of like 169 00:12:31,916 --> 00:12:35,156 Speaker 1: forcing the entire world to eat with the same spices, 170 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:38,236 Speaker 1: or to speak with the same language or with the 171 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:41,836 Speaker 1: same dialect, you know. So we need to make people 172 00:12:41,916 --> 00:12:44,156 Speaker 1: understand that this is an important issue and it needs 173 00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:46,716 Speaker 1: to exist because without it existing, we won't be able 174 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:48,716 Speaker 1: to hear anything else, and we won't be able to 175 00:12:48,716 --> 00:12:51,556 Speaker 1: move forward into the future where we can actually explore 176 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:56,876 Speaker 1: different kinds of music making, things that might be transcultural, 177 00:12:57,036 --> 00:13:00,516 Speaker 1: that represent our commonalities and our differences in different ways. 178 00:13:00,876 --> 00:13:03,276 Speaker 1: So we need these tools in order to be able 179 00:13:03,276 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 1: to imagine something else. That's one thing, and the other 180 00:13:06,556 --> 00:13:09,596 Speaker 1: side of it is actually education. Aside from the fact 181 00:13:09,636 --> 00:13:13,916 Speaker 1: that these capabilities don't exist in the technology, we also 182 00:13:14,356 --> 00:13:18,276 Speaker 1: don't learn about them in music education, and information about 183 00:13:18,316 --> 00:13:23,436 Speaker 1: them is very scattered. It's very much a Western perspective, narrative, 184 00:13:23,996 --> 00:13:28,876 Speaker 1: and trying to break that rigidity of Western music theory 185 00:13:28,876 --> 00:13:32,676 Speaker 1: and Western music education, which is not only a present 186 00:13:33,156 --> 00:13:36,756 Speaker 1: in you know, the West as a whole, but has 187 00:13:36,836 --> 00:13:40,556 Speaker 1: also imposed itself on the rest of the world because 188 00:13:40,596 --> 00:13:45,716 Speaker 1: of colonization, because of imperialism, because of cultural hegemony. We 189 00:13:45,796 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 1: need to make sure that these musical ideas from all 190 00:13:49,436 --> 00:13:52,916 Speaker 1: these different cultures are represented in a way that's equal 191 00:13:52,956 --> 00:13:57,836 Speaker 1: to how Western music Western composers have been. There's no 192 00:13:57,916 --> 00:14:02,436 Speaker 1: reason why everybody has to learn about Bach and Mozart 193 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:06,516 Speaker 1: and doesn't get to learn about Paco de Lusia and 194 00:14:07,476 --> 00:14:10,436 Speaker 1: ali akbar Khan. You know what I'm I think it's 195 00:14:10,436 --> 00:14:13,956 Speaker 1: about valuing all of these musics from all over the 196 00:14:13,956 --> 00:14:17,276 Speaker 1: world and their ability to enrich our lives, and to 197 00:14:17,396 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 1: treat all of these musical traditions on equal ground, not 198 00:14:21,836 --> 00:14:24,756 Speaker 1: that one is superior to another just because it has 199 00:14:24,836 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 1: harmony and you know, a huge orchestra of instruments behind it. 200 00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:31,796 Speaker 1: I mean that still has a lot to do with 201 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:35,836 Speaker 1: the decision makers and who decides what is music or 202 00:14:35,836 --> 00:14:38,116 Speaker 1: what is good music. Because I think that same type 203 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:41,276 Speaker 1: of that same type of oppression exists when we're just 204 00:14:41,316 --> 00:14:43,836 Speaker 1: talking about different styles of music. You know, I've heard 205 00:14:43,876 --> 00:14:46,636 Speaker 1: people say things like hip hop isn't real music, or 206 00:14:46,676 --> 00:14:49,036 Speaker 1: this pop song isn't a real song, or so on 207 00:14:49,116 --> 00:14:50,756 Speaker 1: and so forth. When it comes to the types of 208 00:14:50,836 --> 00:14:54,836 Speaker 1: music that we're deciding is real and isn't real. I 209 00:14:54,876 --> 00:14:56,956 Speaker 1: think you bringing up the example of hip hop is 210 00:14:56,996 --> 00:15:03,556 Speaker 1: really really important. It's taken years years for electronic music makers, 211 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:06,956 Speaker 1: beat makers, hip hop artists to be respected in the 212 00:15:07,036 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 1: same way that you know, Western classical composers are respected. Again. 213 00:15:12,236 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 1: It boils down to this supremacy, you know, we are 214 00:15:15,396 --> 00:15:19,436 Speaker 1: always taught again or there's these ideas that are embedded 215 00:15:19,476 --> 00:15:21,356 Speaker 1: in our minds from an early age that if you 216 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:24,996 Speaker 1: want to be a professional, capable musician, you need to 217 00:15:24,996 --> 00:15:27,476 Speaker 1: be able to read music, you need to understand counterpoint 218 00:15:27,516 --> 00:15:32,236 Speaker 1: and harmony. Black musicians, whether they be African American jazz 219 00:15:32,316 --> 00:15:35,756 Speaker 1: musicians or hip hop artists, have had to suffer this 220 00:15:35,996 --> 00:15:39,596 Speaker 1: for a very long time too. And the parallel is there. 221 00:15:39,636 --> 00:15:41,756 Speaker 1: It's about the inequality. And I think what you brought 222 00:15:41,836 --> 00:15:43,556 Speaker 1: up back in Mozart, what it made me think of 223 00:15:43,716 --> 00:15:45,516 Speaker 1: is when we're talking about the music that we're teaching 224 00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:48,316 Speaker 1: the children, what steps do you think that we can 225 00:15:48,396 --> 00:15:52,876 Speaker 1: take to kind of unlock the possibilities with children, rather 226 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:54,756 Speaker 1: than kind of just teaching them four four time and 227 00:15:54,796 --> 00:15:57,836 Speaker 1: back in Mozart and kind of bringing in an African 228 00:15:57,916 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 1: drummer and say ooh, isn't this fun and thinking of 229 00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:03,876 Speaker 1: that as exotic? What can we do to actually make 230 00:16:04,196 --> 00:16:07,396 Speaker 1: all of music more accessible across the world rather than 231 00:16:07,436 --> 00:16:10,276 Speaker 1: just one view of it. You know, teaching a bunch 232 00:16:10,316 --> 00:16:13,196 Speaker 1: of school kids how to bang on a gembe for 233 00:16:13,236 --> 00:16:17,076 Speaker 1: an afternoon is just not good enough. It's tokenistic, it's exotic. 234 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:19,156 Speaker 1: It takes the boxes and that's all it does. It 235 00:16:19,196 --> 00:16:22,596 Speaker 1: doesn't get into the core. Whereas if you were to 236 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:27,676 Speaker 1: bring an African master musician and allow him the time 237 00:16:27,716 --> 00:16:30,076 Speaker 1: and space to be able to talk about groove, to 238 00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:32,436 Speaker 1: be able to talk about polyrhythms, to be able to 239 00:16:32,436 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: talk about interlocking rhythms, to be able to talk about 240 00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:40,916 Speaker 1: tonality and musicality and pitch and scales and tunings in 241 00:16:40,956 --> 00:16:43,396 Speaker 1: a more in depth way, and then to be able 242 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:48,156 Speaker 1: to represent those ideas using modern sounds, using digital tools. 243 00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:51,516 Speaker 1: That sounds like I'm demanding a lot, or it's a 244 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:54,716 Speaker 1: bit of a utopian daydream, but I think that the 245 00:16:54,756 --> 00:16:57,676 Speaker 1: technology is there to allow for that, and that we 246 00:16:57,796 --> 00:17:00,636 Speaker 1: have plenty of musicians all over the globe who are 247 00:17:00,676 --> 00:17:03,676 Speaker 1: more than capable of teaching those kind of ideas, and 248 00:17:03,716 --> 00:17:07,156 Speaker 1: so marrying the two together for me, would be the 249 00:17:07,196 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 1: first step. And I really don't think it's so difficult. 250 00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:16,276 Speaker 1: I think it would be quite reasonable to expect something 251 00:17:16,316 --> 00:17:27,236 Speaker 1: like that to exist. So tell me a little bit 252 00:17:27,316 --> 00:17:30,836 Speaker 1: how your software is solving that problem as well. In January, 253 00:17:31,276 --> 00:17:35,636 Speaker 1: I released two browser based softwares in collaboration with the 254 00:17:35,716 --> 00:17:39,916 Speaker 1: Creative Studio called Counterpoint. It's run by Tera Parvan and 255 00:17:40,596 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 1: Samuel Diggins. One is called Lima and what's called Apotomy. 256 00:17:44,916 --> 00:17:49,796 Speaker 1: Lima is a tool that allows very instant, intuitive access 257 00:17:49,876 --> 00:17:54,756 Speaker 1: to tunings from all over the world, and it runs 258 00:17:54,756 --> 00:18:01,396 Speaker 1: in a web browser. So it's really really convenient for musicians, researchers, composers, 259 00:18:02,276 --> 00:18:07,036 Speaker 1: educators to use because all you need is a computer 260 00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:12,276 Speaker 1: and you can explore or create here immediately what these 261 00:18:12,316 --> 00:18:15,116 Speaker 1: different tonalities sound like. So the examples I play to 262 00:18:15,156 --> 00:18:19,236 Speaker 1: you earlier were me just switching through some different presets 263 00:18:19,276 --> 00:18:22,236 Speaker 1: that are publicly available in this software. That was a 264 00:18:22,276 --> 00:18:29,156 Speaker 1: major step towards trying to really make this information easier 265 00:18:29,196 --> 00:18:33,556 Speaker 1: for people to engage with. Now, Apotomy is a slightly 266 00:18:33,556 --> 00:18:37,076 Speaker 1: different beast. It's more of a music making environment based 267 00:18:37,076 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 1: on generative music, which essentially is music based on parameters 268 00:18:41,916 --> 00:18:45,996 Speaker 1: and probabilities. But what differentiates it from any other kind 269 00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:50,356 Speaker 1: of generative music software is that it's directly focused on 270 00:18:50,476 --> 00:18:55,036 Speaker 1: these transcultural scales and different tunings from all over the world. 271 00:18:55,476 --> 00:18:57,836 Speaker 1: I know we're on a podcast that nobody can see 272 00:18:57,876 --> 00:18:59,916 Speaker 1: what I'm doing, but what I've done is I've launched 273 00:18:59,956 --> 00:19:05,676 Speaker 1: a browser with Apotomy running. I've selected Arabic tuning by 274 00:19:06,116 --> 00:19:09,716 Speaker 1: Alpha Rabi from the tenth century, and I'm going to 275 00:19:09,836 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 1: choose a very particular characteristic macam, which is a kind 276 00:19:14,556 --> 00:19:28,476 Speaker 1: of mode called rajah. I love it. And so what 277 00:19:28,516 --> 00:19:31,716 Speaker 1: you would do is choose a tuning system and a 278 00:19:31,756 --> 00:19:33,996 Speaker 1: subset that you want to work in, and then you 279 00:19:34,036 --> 00:19:36,236 Speaker 1: have a bunch of sliders and buttons and things that 280 00:19:36,236 --> 00:19:39,356 Speaker 1: you press in order to change the probabilistic nature of 281 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 1: the music that's going to come out. This is very 282 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 1: very simple. As a sound, I'm going to just craft 283 00:19:48,516 --> 00:19:50,636 Speaker 1: it a little bit more, a little bit of delay 284 00:19:52,396 --> 00:20:01,276 Speaker 1: and gives that a little bit more character. And now 285 00:20:01,636 --> 00:20:08,316 Speaker 1: by just trying the sliders and changing some of the parameters. 286 00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:17,116 Speaker 1: I can start to generate these different patterns, and then 287 00:20:17,116 --> 00:20:20,316 Speaker 1: you use a couple of embedded web based synthesizers to 288 00:20:20,716 --> 00:20:23,676 Speaker 1: create that music. That's just one track. I'm going to 289 00:20:23,716 --> 00:20:30,436 Speaker 1: bring in a second track now, and I'm gonna make 290 00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:43,836 Speaker 1: this run lower. And these are all options that are 291 00:20:43,876 --> 00:20:47,476 Speaker 1: available in the software exactly. It's it's a kind of 292 00:20:47,716 --> 00:20:51,436 Speaker 1: modular framework. So I'm going to quickly change the sound 293 00:20:51,476 --> 00:20:54,916 Speaker 1: now to something that might be a bit more interesting. 294 00:20:59,036 --> 00:21:03,596 Speaker 1: Oh now I'm getting a very eighties movie, eighties action movie. Exactly. 295 00:21:04,036 --> 00:21:13,156 Speaker 1: These synths are all quite eighties. So let's just add 296 00:21:13,196 --> 00:21:21,396 Speaker 1: another guitar here on that on the other side. So 297 00:21:21,636 --> 00:21:23,876 Speaker 1: it all feels about eighties at the moment because we're 298 00:21:23,916 --> 00:21:29,836 Speaker 1: just using these very simple rhythmic things structures. But I 299 00:21:29,836 --> 00:21:35,236 Speaker 1: can also switch over to a different kind of rhythmic construction, 300 00:21:35,556 --> 00:21:40,276 Speaker 1: which are called Euclidean rhythms. You can hear these beautiful 301 00:21:40,476 --> 00:21:54,516 Speaker 1: poly rhythms. I'll stop there just otherwise we can really 302 00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:58,156 Speaker 1: be here for hours. I could have never heard this 303 00:21:58,236 --> 00:22:03,596 Speaker 1: kind of music using an Arabic macom being done so quickly, 304 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:06,796 Speaker 1: so easily, just in a web brow not even in 305 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 1: a web browser, in any kind of digital software environment before. So, 306 00:22:11,156 --> 00:22:13,316 Speaker 1: even though it sounds a little bit cheesy and a 307 00:22:13,356 --> 00:22:16,156 Speaker 1: bit dated in a bit eighties, what it does is 308 00:22:16,156 --> 00:22:19,756 Speaker 1: it allows my imagination to go elsewhere, so that when 309 00:22:19,796 --> 00:22:22,196 Speaker 1: I come to make my own music, I have this 310 00:22:22,636 --> 00:22:25,636 Speaker 1: weird stuff in the back of my mind that allows 311 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:28,036 Speaker 1: me to think about my own music and my own 312 00:22:28,076 --> 00:22:29,876 Speaker 1: musical culture in a different way, in a way that's 313 00:22:29,876 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 1: a little bit more meaningful and a bit different, a 314 00:22:32,516 --> 00:22:35,396 Speaker 1: bit more progressive maybe. So let me let me add 315 00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 1: your professional musician obviously, and you know what you're doing 316 00:22:38,716 --> 00:22:41,436 Speaker 1: jumping into the software. How do you think that this 317 00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:44,276 Speaker 1: would work for a beginner like somebody that's just like 318 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:49,076 Speaker 1: trying to get acquaintance with these new tonalities and new rhythms. 319 00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:51,396 Speaker 1: What would be the best method for them to use 320 00:22:51,436 --> 00:22:54,196 Speaker 1: this software. I've spoken to a lot of people who 321 00:22:54,276 --> 00:22:58,116 Speaker 1: didn't know much about this subject and who were using 322 00:22:58,116 --> 00:23:00,556 Speaker 1: these tools for the first time, and I think everybody 323 00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:07,236 Speaker 1: found them intuitive enough for them to have their imagination stimulated. 324 00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:11,596 Speaker 1: The beauty about both lima and apotomy is that rather 325 00:23:11,676 --> 00:23:16,316 Speaker 1: than having presets and defaults that are biased in any way, 326 00:23:16,916 --> 00:23:20,516 Speaker 1: or let's just say non neutral in some way. The 327 00:23:20,716 --> 00:23:25,756 Speaker 1: default settings are the act of choosing. That's something that's 328 00:23:25,756 --> 00:23:29,436 Speaker 1: really important because it gives users a sense of agency. 329 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:33,916 Speaker 1: So what I would expect from and non professional users 330 00:23:34,196 --> 00:23:36,956 Speaker 1: is for them to get excited about this and to 331 00:23:37,076 --> 00:23:41,556 Speaker 1: just explore and discover by doing, and then hopefully be 332 00:23:41,636 --> 00:23:45,716 Speaker 1: stimulated enough to take that interest further. It's just about 333 00:23:45,756 --> 00:23:47,916 Speaker 1: that spark. If you can catch that spark, and if 334 00:23:47,916 --> 00:23:52,756 Speaker 1: you can let it have space to grow brighter, then 335 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:58,516 Speaker 1: you know people will automatically find themselves taking their own 336 00:23:58,596 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 1: path and discovering the things that make them feel that magic. 337 00:24:03,196 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 1: There's one thing I think the limitation is that this 338 00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:08,196 Speaker 1: is free software, and it is browser based, and it's 339 00:24:08,236 --> 00:24:12,316 Speaker 1: hard to you know, beat out software like ableton Live 340 00:24:12,436 --> 00:24:15,956 Speaker 1: or fl Studio or other places bits of music making 341 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:18,716 Speaker 1: software that you can use and without marketing budgets with 342 00:24:18,756 --> 00:24:22,276 Speaker 1: those softwares. Are you ever concerned that maybe the word 343 00:24:22,316 --> 00:24:24,996 Speaker 1: won't get out that things like this exist for people 344 00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:28,796 Speaker 1: to use, And do you ever consider what the future 345 00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:31,476 Speaker 1: looks like using this tool going forward? With those factors 346 00:24:31,476 --> 00:24:35,996 Speaker 1: in mind, you're right to say that commercial software run 347 00:24:36,116 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 1: by global companies with a lot of money for marketing 348 00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:42,716 Speaker 1: and development is definitely not a beast that can be 349 00:24:43,396 --> 00:24:46,356 Speaker 1: tackled with something like this that runs in the browser 350 00:24:46,436 --> 00:24:50,076 Speaker 1: and it's for free. But this was a conscious decision. 351 00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:53,916 Speaker 1: I don't think that those technologies are are bad and 352 00:24:53,996 --> 00:24:56,876 Speaker 1: need to be replaced by something else. I just think 353 00:24:56,916 --> 00:25:02,956 Speaker 1: that they're missing a really crucial element which is imperative 354 00:25:03,316 --> 00:25:08,836 Speaker 1: for non Anglo European musical cultures, and without them, music 355 00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: is poorer as a result. Matt and Robert's, a great 356 00:25:12,756 --> 00:25:17,476 Speaker 1: American saxophonist, said during a panel discussion I participated in 357 00:25:17,476 --> 00:25:20,476 Speaker 1: with her a while ago, she said that people of 358 00:25:20,516 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 1: color need to have to work harder. That's just the 359 00:25:23,636 --> 00:25:28,196 Speaker 1: nature of the way that systems have been constructed. And 360 00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:30,436 Speaker 1: what I love about these tools is that they actually 361 00:25:30,476 --> 00:25:33,556 Speaker 1: make our lives much much easier, make it much easier 362 00:25:33,556 --> 00:25:37,596 Speaker 1: to create and to develop ideas and to experiment and 363 00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:41,236 Speaker 1: to explore than it was before. So they're great stimulants 364 00:25:41,236 --> 00:25:43,716 Speaker 1: for the musical imagination, and I hope that that that 365 00:25:43,836 --> 00:25:49,116 Speaker 1: in itself can be something that will lead to something else, 366 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:52,596 Speaker 1: whether that be more great music or more great tools, 367 00:25:53,356 --> 00:26:03,236 Speaker 1: only time will tell. What are a few things that 368 00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:06,076 Speaker 1: listeners can do to help continue your work. Please just 369 00:26:06,276 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: use the tools, tell your friends about them, and explore 370 00:26:09,996 --> 00:26:14,916 Speaker 1: these ideas. Ultimately, I'm a fan of music, and a 371 00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:17,516 Speaker 1: big part of making these tools is because I'm keen 372 00:26:17,636 --> 00:26:22,916 Speaker 1: and desperate actually to hear more music that has these 373 00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:26,116 Speaker 1: kind of energies and these kinds of tonalities. So please 374 00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:29,716 Speaker 1: just make music, tell your friends and let me know 375 00:26:29,836 --> 00:26:36,676 Speaker 1: so that I can hear it. Hi'm Alami as a musician, composer, 376 00:26:36,676 --> 00:26:40,196 Speaker 1: and researcher and creator of Apotomy and Lima. We included 377 00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:42,076 Speaker 1: links to both at our show notes, so feel free 378 00:26:42,116 --> 00:26:44,436 Speaker 1: to jump in there and play around and see what 379 00:26:44,516 --> 00:26:47,316 Speaker 1: you could create. Next week, go Solvable, We're talking about 380 00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:49,676 Speaker 1: a different set of digital tools that are solving problems. 381 00:26:50,156 --> 00:26:53,476 Speaker 1: Able Gamers is an organization that is making gaming devices 382 00:26:53,556 --> 00:26:56,836 Speaker 1: available and accessible for everyone. I hope you'll join us 383 00:26:56,836 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 1: for that conversation. Solvable Senior producer is Jocelyn Frank, Research 384 00:27:02,236 --> 00:27:06,596 Speaker 1: by David Jah, Booking by Lisa Dunn, Our managing producer 385 00:27:06,756 --> 00:27:09,916 Speaker 1: is Sasha Matthias, and our executive producer is Mio Lobel. 386 00:27:10,956 --> 00:27:13,996 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Hiam Alami and his musical collaborators for 387 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:18,156 Speaker 1: sharing audio from the Apotomy live performance from CTM twenty 388 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:20,676 Speaker 1: twenty one. There's a link to their full performance in 389 00:27:20,676 --> 00:27:24,076 Speaker 1: our show notes. I highly recommend that you check that out. 390 00:27:25,076 --> 00:27:28,236 Speaker 1: Solvable is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like 391 00:27:28,356 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 1: the show, please remember to share, rate, and review. It 392 00:27:31,796 --> 00:27:34,276 Speaker 1: helps us find our way to the ears of new listeners. 393 00:27:35,156 --> 00:27:38,316 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin Podcasts wherever you listen, including on 394 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:42,956 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app and Apple Podcasts. I'm Ronald Young Junior. 395 00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:44,316 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.