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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Addy and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: Stuff one never told you objection by Heart Radio, And

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Speaker 2: today we are bringing back part one of our two

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Speaker 2: parter on Female Revenge. I'm gonna tell you this one

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Speaker 2: put me in a place. These two put me in

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Speaker 2: a place, so be prepared. They're a little intense. They're

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Speaker 2: a little intense, but because of some last of us

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Speaker 2: related reasons, I thought it.

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Speaker 1: Would be good to bring it back.

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Speaker 2: You know, yes, so please enjoy part of our episode

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Speaker 2: on Female Revenge.

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Speaker 3: Hey, this is Annie and welcome to stuff Mom. Never

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Speaker 3: told your production of iHeartRadio's House Stuff works. You know

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Speaker 3: what one of my resolutions is, what is your resolution

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Speaker 3: to stop saying the intro so quickly?

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Speaker 4: Oh well, it's better than what I do, since I've

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Speaker 4: never done it, and I'm just grateful that you do.

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Speaker 1: One day, I'm all good.

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Speaker 4: I am a little fearful of the day that you're

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Speaker 4: gone with safer and I have to do something because

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Speaker 4: we're behind or something, and I had to do an

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Speaker 4: introduction like this, and I'm gonna be like, oh, I

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Speaker 4: miss Annie so much right now.

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Speaker 3: But you can learn from my mistakes. That is one

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Speaker 3: of my many resolutions. That's not my only resolution.

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Speaker 4: Well, I will say one of the problems is because.

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Speaker 1: You do it.

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Speaker 4: I don't even pay attention. But it sounds like I

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Speaker 4: think I tried. We tried this one time with an outro.

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Speaker 4: I try to do an outro and it was such

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Speaker 4: a cluster and I was like, I'm done.

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Speaker 1: You do it.

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Speaker 3: I still have to write it down, even though I've

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Speaker 3: said it so many times. But we're anyway not talking

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Speaker 3: about resolutions today. We're talking about female Revenge, love It, history,

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Speaker 3: science examples, and it ballooned into such a big episode.

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Speaker 1: It's now a two parter.

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Speaker 4: Well, and I think part of that was you and

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Speaker 4: I kept going on and on and on adding to

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Speaker 4: the movie list or just a genre of it because

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I like this one, and like this one

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Speaker 4: and this one and this one, and this could be considered,

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Speaker 4: and this is considered because we actually went beyond. We

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Speaker 4: could talk about TV shows, and we do couple, but

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Speaker 4: not all of them obviously.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but then even trips.

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Speaker 4: With like books as well as comics or graphic novels,

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Speaker 4: we don't exactly get into all of that level, right,

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Speaker 4: So it could be like a five.

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Speaker 3: Day series, it could be an entire podcast just revenge,

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Speaker 3: because you're right, I didn't even think about comic books.

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Speaker 1: What is it? Yeah with me, I can't believe you

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Speaker 1: didn't go there. Maybe will come to me as we

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Speaker 1: do it, So that's your lane.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, we are planning some specific episodes on Birds

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Speaker 3: of Prey Black Widow, so well we'll come back to

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Speaker 3: that before we get into all of the stuff we

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Speaker 3: have to talk about. We did want to put a

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Speaker 3: trigger warning hair because there's gonna be discussion around sexual

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Speaker 3: assought violence, brief mentions of mental health, and suicide where

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Speaker 3: these revenge things get pretty dark. Yes, yeah, and it's

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Speaker 3: actually something I didn't have too much knowledge around when

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Speaker 3: it comes to entertainment, this idea of women in revenge.

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Speaker 3: As I've said before, most revenge media makes me uncomfortable

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Speaker 3: and nervous, which is funny because I've actually written a

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Speaker 3: lot of things about revenge in my own life.

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Speaker 1: So I think I think there's something.

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Speaker 3: About the fantastical element of superhero type revenge that I

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Speaker 3: can click out and it seems like fantasy and watching

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Speaker 3: like revenge, even though it's heightened usually there's something about it.

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Speaker 3: It just puts me on edge, which I think is

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Speaker 3: the point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, that is the point. It makes you uncomfortable, right,

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Speaker 4: It kind of makes you look your shoulders at all times.

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Speaker 3: Right, And I a good revenge movie makes you question

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Speaker 3: the main character and whether or not they're justified in

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Speaker 3: what they're doing.

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Speaker 4: I think this is definitely one of those anti hero

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Speaker 4: right ideas.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I didn't want to say in here.

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Speaker 3: I have a friend who is excellent at revenge. She

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Speaker 3: I hope I never end up on her bad side.

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Speaker 3: The anchovies in the car, the ants in the car. Basically,

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Speaker 3: your car is not a safe place if you made

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Speaker 3: her mad.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's kind of a trope as well, that

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Speaker 4: the girlfriend, the mean quote unquote crazy girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: They always go after the car, right.

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Speaker 4: It does seem to be that type of feel I've

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Speaker 4: definitely met women that I'm like, Yeah, you scare me

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Speaker 4: because you have not only do you think of it,

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Speaker 4: and I think a lot of people think bad thoughts,

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Speaker 4: but you actually start planning it. And when you start

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Speaker 4: planning it, you know you better watch out right.

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Speaker 3: And so this isn't something I'm very familiar with, but

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Speaker 3: you are a right.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I do really really love female revenge movies. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: with some of the me too stuff is it's kind

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Speaker 4: of taken out of my rotation a lot of the

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Speaker 4: ones that I really do love, and I'm very sad

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Speaker 4: about that. I also find it really interesting because one

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Speaker 4: of the things, and I don't think we mentioned it

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Speaker 4: in here when we talk about mad Max, one of

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Speaker 4: the big problems people had was Cherli Stirn playing of

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Speaker 4: such a pivol character, which in my mind, I'm like,

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Speaker 4: she still need a saving in the end. So I

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Speaker 4: don't understand why people are upset people being men and

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Speaker 4: men's activists, let's put it that way. But it is

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Speaker 4: a kind of a revenge justice type of mentality as well.

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Speaker 4: So it's kind of like, Okay, who are we looking at,

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Speaker 4: who are we rooting for? How are we rooting for it?

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Speaker 4: And how do we come to like the just desserts?

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Speaker 1: You know? I want to see all that I do.

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Speaker 4: I love that because I don't always like really dark,

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Speaker 4: dark things, but when it has a satisfying ending or

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Speaker 4: a satisfying moment, it makes every.

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Speaker 1: Thing okay to me. Yeah, it's carthartic.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I made a very foolish mistake in preparation

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Speaker 3: for this, and I've watched probably fifteen of these in

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Speaker 3: like four days in an interesting place.

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Speaker 1: I did not recommend that.

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Speaker 3: No nobody in there thinking about themselves and their health

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have done that. I kept telling myself, why no

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Speaker 3: one's making you do this?

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Speaker 4: I was, Yeah, I was surprised, And I will say

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Speaker 4: one of the reasons, and you'll hear in the later episode.

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Speaker 4: We picked Farst Wives Club because I wanted we were

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Speaker 4: talking about doing a revenge type of themed movie, but

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Speaker 4: I wanted to make sure it wasn't over the top

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Speaker 4: gory and over the top dark. And this is kind

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Speaker 4: of one of the beginnings of the revenge justice type

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Speaker 4: of thought process in movies, and not beginning, that's not true,

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Speaker 4: but you know it was one of the iconic ones. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, and then finding out you watch all these

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Speaker 4: oh why oh?

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Speaker 3: But the reason I wanted to say that is because

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Speaker 3: what you said earlier, the me too thing watching them,

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Speaker 3: you're gonna recognize when we get to our part two episodes,

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Speaker 3: several names like the wine scenes come up a lot, right,

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Speaker 3: fascinating because it makes you wonder the people working on it.

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Speaker 3: And I know I've read some some reviewsers all this

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Speaker 3: female revenge maybe makes you wonder.

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Speaker 4: Makes you And it seems like a female revenge and

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Speaker 4: anger is something that are on a lot of people's mind.

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Speaker 1: He'll have no fury like a woman scorned.

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Speaker 4: That is a great great line in anything, A quote

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Speaker 4: derived from William Congree's sixteenth century English play The Morning Bride,

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Speaker 4: m You are Ning? And these episodes were in part

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Speaker 4: inspired by the upcoming Carry mulligan revenge flick Promising Young Woman,

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Speaker 4: directed by Emerald Fennel. And I was really really like.

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Speaker 4: I started watching it and I was like, oh, damn, okay, okay, that's.

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Speaker 1: Taking out the nice guy trope real hard.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I really enjoy It's gonna be an intense,

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Speaker 4: intense scene because within the previews you can already see

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Speaker 4: the nice guy bits. You have very unassuming, good looking

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Speaker 4: guys you would never expect. Ab you have the friend

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Speaker 4: who didn't support her, didn't believe her, and then you

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Speaker 4: have the teacher figures, yeah, that also don't believe her

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Speaker 4: and just kind of tell her it's gonna make it

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Speaker 4: worse for you.

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Speaker 1: And then she just left and everybody's like, why did

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Speaker 1: you leave?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And it definitely had a hard candy vibe to it.

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Speaker 1: Too, which I appreciate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're gonna be talking about that film and

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Speaker 3: another movie that kind of reminds me of that that

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Speaker 3: I just watched in the Faith. But okay, let's do

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Speaker 3: our definition bit. The Dictionary definition of revenge is quote

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Speaker 3: the action of inflicting hurt or harm on someone for

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Speaker 3: an injury or wrong suffered at their hands. It is

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Speaker 3: defined as both an act and a desire. Some psychologists

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Speaker 3: refer to it as narcissistic acts of self repair. The

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Speaker 3: definition of justice, which is a term that gets thrown

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Speaker 3: around a lot in conversations around revenge, is just behavior

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Speaker 3: or treatment, and the line between the two of them

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Speaker 3: can be murky. Punishment pops up a bit too, which

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Speaker 3: is a penalty inflicted for wrongdoing. But when I was

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Speaker 3: trying to think of the differences between these things, and

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Speaker 3: I do think there can be overlapped. I think the

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Speaker 3: main thing with revenge is there's a personal emotional aspect

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Speaker 3: and that it's not so much about justice necessarily. It

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Speaker 3: might be, but it's more like, I want to hurt

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Speaker 3: this person who directly hurt me.

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Speaker 1: Right, it might You might take actions that.

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Speaker 3: Don't worry a lot of the movies are going to

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Speaker 3: talk about. They kind of go a bit further than

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Speaker 3: request ally, yes, and yeah, we are as a society

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Speaker 3: pretty torn on ideas of revenge. There's an eye for

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Speaker 3: an eye versus the other cheek, which are both from

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Speaker 3: the Bible. A paper digging into revenge and all of

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Speaker 3: this found that when part dissipants believed a revenge action

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Speaker 3: was sanctioned by God, they were more likely to support

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Speaker 3: revenge and seek it themselves. Revenge is a basic human drive.

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Speaker 3: The same part of your brain that lights up when

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Speaker 3: you're in love that sends reward signals lights up when

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Speaker 3: you think about revenge. The prefrontal cortex shows activity too,

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Speaker 3: which this is the same area associated with planning how.

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Speaker 1: To achieve a goal. That's really intriguing.

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Speaker 3: Evolutionarily, it may have been a way to keep burgeoning

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Speaker 3: societies functioning. Those that do wrong that threaten stability get punished,

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Speaker 3: a tool to prevent future wrongs. And we did touch

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Speaker 3: on some of the science behind revenge in our Forgiveness episode,

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Speaker 3: but there's some more we want to touch on because

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Speaker 3: it is really fascinating. At twenty seventeen, study out of

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Speaker 3: the University of Kentucky looked into revenge, tasking participants with

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Speaker 3: writing an essay and then swapping essays for feedback with

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Speaker 3: other participants, and one of the participants was an undercover

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Speaker 3: researcher who epically critical feedback. Then the participants were allowed

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Speaker 3: to express how angry the feedback they had gotten made

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Speaker 3: them with a voodoo doll and needles. The participants who

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Speaker 3: had received the negative feedback reported feeling better after engaging

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Speaker 3: in some revenge basically sticking the doll with needles. A

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Speaker 3: follow up study looked into whether people would go out

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Speaker 3: of their way for revenge and they found that to

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Speaker 3: not be true. People sought it out if they believed

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Speaker 3: it would make them feel better, but participants led to

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Speaker 3: believe it wouldn't, and they did this through a placebo

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Speaker 3: that they called a mood stabilizing pill. Basically, no matter

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Speaker 3: what you do, your mood's going to stay the same.

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Speaker 3: Did not pursue revenge against teammates that had let them down.

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Speaker 3: This corroborates the popular psychological understanding of revenge that its

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Speaker 3: primary goal is catharsis, followed closely by deterrence and restoration

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Speaker 3: of self esteem.

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Speaker 4: So a similar study found that when given the opportunity

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Speaker 4: to get revenge against the player who wronged them. Participants

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Speaker 4: universally took it, but also universally reported feeling worse after

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Speaker 4: that case compared to those who weren't wrong and therefore

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Speaker 4: did not seek revenge. Those who had been wronged and

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Speaker 4: were not given the opportunity to get revenge reported they

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Speaker 4: believed they would feel better if they had pursued revenge,

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Speaker 4: even though they were in the happier group. Well, again

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Speaker 4: the grass is greener idea. Yet another study found that

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Speaker 4: acts of revenge are only better than not getting revenge

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Speaker 4: in cases where the revenge is acknowledged and the balance

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Speaker 4: is restored.

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Speaker 3: Right So if it goes unacknowledged, then you don't get

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Speaker 3: the same.

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Speaker 1: Right like benefit from it.

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Speaker 3: And as we talked about in our forgiveness episode, most

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Speaker 3: science indicates that revenge is satisfying in the short term,

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Speaker 3: but associated with more negative outcomes in the long term.

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Speaker 3: Instead of providing closure, it keeps a wound fresh. Yet

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Speaker 3: another study found that when asked about a time they

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Speaker 3: got revenge in a time when they were the target

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Speaker 3: of revenge.

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Speaker 1: Almost everyone.

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Speaker 3: I love this, Almost everyone deemed their act of revenge

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Speaker 3: as just and appropriate. And the act of revenge against

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Speaker 3: them as excessive.

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Speaker 4: Of course, of course, how dare you exactly?

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Speaker 1: Oh, humanity.

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Speaker 3: We actually have a lot more science and history about

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Speaker 3: revenge to get into, but first we have a quick

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Speaker 3: break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,

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Speaker 3: Thank you sponsor. So one thing I was curious about

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Speaker 3: is the question of why do we like revenge stories.

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Speaker 4: Well, obviously, revenge stories are satisfying.

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Speaker 1: Like I just said, they're cathartic.

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Speaker 4: In a world where bad things happen to a good

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Speaker 4: people without rhyme or reason, a reality beset with senseless smiles,

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Speaker 4: it's comforting to think that those who have wronged us

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Speaker 4: will face the consequence and then so huh hope. Most

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Speaker 4: of our revenge media functions like a fantasy where everything

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Speaker 4: is exaggerated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is kind of nice.

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Speaker 3: It reminds me of what we talked about in Whitey

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Speaker 3: People victim blame, where we're always trying to find a

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Speaker 3: reason for or to find balance, right, to make things just.

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Speaker 4: For there's sense. Yeah, I think that's the true libra

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Speaker 4: in me. I needed to be Oh that's out, y'all?

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, all falling into place from doctor Edward Halliwell,

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Speaker 3: psychiatrist and author, quote, the pursuit of revenge is a

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Speaker 3: turn on.

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Speaker 1: It's an adrenaline rush. You can really get into.

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Speaker 3: It, and once you have experienced it, you want to

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Speaker 3: do it again and again, and it.

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Speaker 1: Becomes a way of life.

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Speaker 3: He argues that if you wanted, you could frame our

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Speaker 3: entire history in terms of revenge.

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Speaker 4: I think that's what wars are essentially, when you look

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Speaker 4: at the bottom line and money.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and of course money.

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Speaker 4: In the two thousand and eight study out of Australia

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Speaker 4: conducted by doctor Ian McKee, you found a link that

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Speaker 4: suggested that those most interested in revenge were people more

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Speaker 4: motivated by power, specifically right wing authoritarians and some sort

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Speaker 4: of social dominance and all the attributes that go with it.

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Speaker 3: Other studies have shown that events that inspire revenge differ

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Speaker 3: by culture and others that revenge is viewed differently among

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Speaker 3: communities without access to legal means of justice. There are

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Speaker 3: entire websites dedicated to helping you get revenge. Think the

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Speaker 3: Exploding Glitterboxes or get your Revenge on your x dot

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Speaker 3: com run by a man whose wife cheated on him.

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Speaker 3: According to him, most of his clients are female.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to look it up. No.

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Speaker 4: A recent study found that men enjoy revenge more than women.

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Speaker 4: When shown instances of wrongdoers getting punished, male participants were

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Speaker 4: more likely to feel pleasure, while female participants were more

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Speaker 4: likely to feel empathy. Another study looking into gender differences

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Speaker 4: found that men were far likelier than women to engage

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Speaker 4: in revenge of fantasies, and that even children fantasize about

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Speaker 4: getting I've seen this as a nanny and as a

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Speaker 4: person who was in the field.

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Speaker 1: I've seen this. Okay, you sometimes are really crafty too.

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Speaker 1: Just wants to know that I believe it.

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Speaker 4: The women reported that they believed revenge was ultimately pointless,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of the women who did express revenge

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Speaker 4: fantasies were more likely to turn the revenge inwards, imagining

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Speaker 4: about harming themselves to punish those that harmed them.

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Speaker 3: There is a certain level of breaking gender norms in

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Speaker 3: female revenge entertainment. Traditionally, aggression and violence are associated with men. Anger,

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Speaker 3: the emotion most closely associated with revenge, is traditionally viewed

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Speaker 3: as a more masculine, sanctioned emotion. Historically, women have used

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Speaker 3: words as weapons whereas men are more violence like using

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Speaker 3: swords or guns or whatever, what have you. And also

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Speaker 3: I read a lot of things that viewed this as

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Speaker 3: kind of a dismissal of feminine expressions of grief, in

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Speaker 3: viewing them as weak, and kind of going off of that,

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Speaker 3: we did look at some history some famous examples of

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Speaker 3: women getting revenge. But before we get into that, we

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Speaker 3: have one more quick break for word from our sponsor

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Speaker 3: and we're back, Thank you sponsor, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: some history.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into that.

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Speaker 4: Throughout our history, Western culture has largely depicted vengeance as

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Speaker 4: a more masculine avenue. A lot of the monsters from

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Speaker 4: our Female Monsters episode tell stories of enraged, insatiable vengeance

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Speaker 4: like the Furies. Less about revenge though, which has more

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Speaker 4: personal element, but there are similar themes, and there are

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Speaker 4: plenty of famous historical examples.

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Speaker 3: We have real life examples like lorraina Bobbit, but also

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Speaker 3: going back further, there is the example of Kiyomara, a

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Speaker 3: Galician noble woman during the Galatian War with Rome around

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Speaker 3: one hundred and eighty nine BCE. She was take captive

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Speaker 3: the person in charge of the prisoners, including Kyomara made

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Speaker 3: several sexual advances towards her, all of which she rejected.

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Speaker 3: So he raped her, but then felt such guilt about it,

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Speaker 3: kindly ransomed her to her people, the countrymen that came

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Speaker 3: for the exchange, with a nod from Kiyomara or perhaps

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Speaker 3: speaking in their native language depending on the source, that

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Speaker 3: you know what, you should cut off this guy's head.

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Speaker 3: The countrymen did that. She took the head, carried it

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Speaker 3: back with her in her dress, threw it at her

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Speaker 3: husband's feet.

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Speaker 1: When she arrived home.

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Speaker 3: Her husband said, a noble thing, dear wife, is fidelity,

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Speaker 3: and she responded, yes, but it is a nobler thing

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Speaker 3: that only one man be alive who has been intimate

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Speaker 3: with me.

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Speaker 4: So. Artemisia Gentileschi was a painter in the sixteen hundreds

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Speaker 4: who was raped when she was eighteen, and instead of

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Speaker 4: punishing the rapists, the court, of course of tortured Artemisia,

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Speaker 4: which we've seen even today, tying ropes around her fingers

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Speaker 4: and pulling them tight. As she was tortured, she shouted

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Speaker 4: out her rapists, who watched in the courtroom, this is

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Speaker 4: the real you gave me, and these are your promises,

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Speaker 4: and she repeated unwavering about her testimony. It is true

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Speaker 4: the entire transcript of the trial survived, and she went

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Speaker 4: about getting her revenge through her art, painting The Disturbing

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Speaker 4: and Affected Judith and Holoferness, in which Judith, along with

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Speaker 4: another woman, hold down Holofernes, slitting his throat.

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Speaker 1: It is a very effective faint as good one.

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Speaker 3: In sixtycee in present day southeast England, Boudica was born.

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Speaker 1: She went on to marry Celtic.

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Speaker 3: King Proscutagus at the age of eighteen. When Prostutagus died

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Speaker 3: in forty three CE without a male air, his kingdom,

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Speaker 3: land and property were annexed by the Romans. They then

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Speaker 3: publicly flogged Budica and raped her two daughters. Records show

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Speaker 3: that she declared nothing is safe from Roman pride and arrogance.

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Speaker 3: They will deface the sacred and will deflower our virgins

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Speaker 3: when the battle are perished. That is what I a

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Speaker 3: woman will do. A trained warrior, she helped form a

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Speaker 3: rebel army of tribes that went on to destroy the

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Speaker 3: Roman capital of Britain and killed all those that lived there.

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Speaker 3: The rebel army did the same thing with two other cities,

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Speaker 3: including London, Records from the time suggest that Budica's rebellion

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Speaker 3: killed seventy thousand Romans and pro Roman Britons before she

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Speaker 3: was defeated.

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Speaker 1: All right, then, yeah, and perhaps inspired by.

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Speaker 3: Some of these true stories, perhaps now we have plenty

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Speaker 3: of fictional examples as well, going way back right.

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Speaker 4: In euripides Greek play Medea, this character is sometimes called

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Speaker 4: the Queen of revenge. Once said a woman's weak and

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Speaker 4: timid in most matters. The noise of war, the look

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Speaker 4: of steel make her a coward. But touch her right

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Speaker 4: in marriage and there's no bloody or spirit. Media's ex husband, Jason,

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Speaker 4: dished her for another woman for her superficial reasons after

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Speaker 4: Medea helped him climb the social ladder. The whole play

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Speaker 4: is about her journey to secure her revenge, not caring

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Speaker 4: who ends up in the crossfire, including her own children,

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Speaker 4: taking away what he left for her, a future in royalty,

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Speaker 4: and when she gets it, she rides off in a

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Speaker 4: dragon drawn carriage. You meant to give me an abandoned

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Speaker 4: old age, I give one now to you. This example

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Speaker 4: is particularly in settling because the Medea flouts her gender

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Speaker 4: norm both of women being too kind to seek revenge,

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Speaker 4: but also that women are unfailingly protective maternal of their children,

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Speaker 4: a twist because we the audience expect the act of

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Speaker 4: vengeance to take Jason's life.

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Speaker 3: This whole thing of revenge seemed to be a theme

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Speaker 3: in euripides work. Around the mid fourteen twenties BCE. Euripides

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Speaker 3: also published Hecuba Hekibah was the queen of Troy and

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Speaker 3: witnessed and experienced many many wrongs, including the deaths of

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Speaker 3: her husband and sons. She was enslaved by those who

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Speaker 3: killed her family, Her daughter is sacrificed, and another is

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Speaker 3: taken as a concubine to be killed. Hecuba, along with

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Speaker 3: other female captives of the Trojan army, lure the King

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Speaker 3: of Thrace, Polymester, and his two sons into the women's

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Speaker 3: tent in a post war encampment, proceed to blind the

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Speaker 3: king with pens from their dresses and kill his two

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Speaker 3: young sons. Polymester prophesied that Hecuba would become quote a

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Speaker 3: dog with fiery eyes. Many scholars interpret this as a

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Speaker 3: symbol of the fiercely maternal, and this is an early

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Speaker 3: example the key element in revenge stories about women their

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Speaker 3: suffering must be detailed and painful enough so that we

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Speaker 3: are sympathetic and we back them stepping outside of traditional

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Speaker 3: gender norms by getting revenge instead of punishing them for

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Speaker 3: transgressing these boundaries. And Janet Claire delved into the dichotomy

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Speaker 3: of this character as the all suffering, grieving mother and

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Speaker 3: furious woman set on revenge. She describes quote a culture

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Speaker 3: that condemned revenge and saw it as a last resort

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Speaker 3: to which only a male should have recourse, and that

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Speaker 3: to stage a hecuba as she was staged in classical

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Speaker 3: tragedy would be to stage a rebellion.

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Speaker 4: So when it comes to our modern day entertainment, revenge

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Speaker 4: is a genre dominated by men, both in leading roles

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Speaker 4: and when it comes to directors. So when we think

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Speaker 4: of revenge movies with male protagonists, the wrong at the

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Speaker 4: heart of the revenge is usually quite different and often

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Speaker 4: involves the fridging killing off of the main love interests

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Speaker 4: early in the plot, sidelining her to an object that

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Speaker 4: functions solely to start the main male character's vengeful journey.

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Speaker 4: Not only does she die, she's often raped and tortured

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Speaker 4: prior to death, defiling the man's property quote unquote, we

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Speaker 4: as the audience, typically root for the man to get

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Speaker 4: his vengeance, chewing on his typically violent retribution.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, how many times have we seen this?

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Speaker 4: In every James Bond at least one person loved the

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Speaker 4: Lovengers that you know for like thirty seconds. Yeah, nake

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00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 4: it on the bed dies immediately, and then of course yeah,

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00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 4: John Wick is famous for the dog and don't care

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00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 4: to be fair. Yeah, I get that killing off the

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00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 4: dog and the wife. And then there's you see so many,

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00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 4: so many of those that begin as I think every

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00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 4: John Statum movie outside of.

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00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: So sad but so true, that's exactly how you see it.

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00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: You're deathways.

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00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 4: I watched that and that's the beginning plot, and you're like,

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00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 4: what is happening?

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00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,239
Speaker 3: Yeah? Also, I guess Mission Impossible. I love how like

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00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 3: every Mission Impossible movie starts with this and then at

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00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 3: the end he's with someone, right, but then she dies

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00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 3: at the.

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00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: Time.

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00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 3: Stop, you will never be happy. That's the message. That

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00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 3: is the message. Revenge won't make you happy anyway. Revenge

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00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: stories with women at the helm, on the other hand,

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00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 3: usually are more gendered fears and anxieties like sexual assault,

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00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 3: domestic violence, cheating motherhood. While we frequently cheer for these

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00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 3: anti heroines, audiences are more likely to turn on her

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00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 3: than on a male protagonist, giving her as hysterical or deranged.

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00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 3: Some movies even managed to flip somehow so that the

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00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 3: audience sides with the male antagonist or that the woman.

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00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: Quote deserved what she can right.

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00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: Yes, when I was thinking about this, I think men

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00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: don't like imagining a world where women can exact revenge

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00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 3: for the wrongs done to them.

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00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, there's so many things about being a

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00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 4: ladylike and being kind and motherly and nurturing that that's

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00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 4: not acceptable. While while the father is the protector, so

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00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: of course it crosses the line to be protecting even

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00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 4: if you're protecting yourself, that that's crossing the gender norms boundary,

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00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 4: right sure.

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Speaker 3: And we have a lot of examples about that in our.

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00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: Upcoming part two of.

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00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 3: This I've been One of the ones we're going to

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00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: talk about that really gripped our collective cultural psyches was

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00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 3: the nineteen seventy eight film I Spit on Your Grave.

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00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: That's intense. I can you watched that?

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00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 4: Right?

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00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah? Oh yeah, no, that's an intense one.

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00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 3: It is yes, it very much is, and this was

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00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: done by mer Zarky. This movie follows an aspiring writer

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00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 3: who is gang draped and her relentless vengeful pursuit to

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00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: take them all out after that. As you might imagine,

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Speaker 3: this started up a lot of controversy.

487
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: Robert Ebert famously.

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00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 3: Despised it, calling it quote one of the most depressing

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00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 3: experiences of my life and describing the film as a.

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00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: Vile bag of garbage.

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00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: And we're going to do a terrible thing here and

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00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: leave it at a cliffhanger like some revenge movies do.

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00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: Take that, Yeah, you take that. Listeners, Thank you for listening.

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00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 4: So sorry, just save it. Just one to do until

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00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 4: you know you can do a streaming.

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00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: Things, Yeah do yeah, benj it.

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00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,239
Speaker 3: Yes, we have a part two forthcoming where we're going

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00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: to look at our more modern female revenge genre and

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00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 3: specific examples, and we're also focusing in for feminist maybe

500
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 3: Friday on First Wives Club, So keep your ears out

501
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 3: for that. In the meantime, if you have a favorite

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00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 3: revenge movie or any kind of revenge media, you can

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00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 3: email it to us. Our email is Stuff Media Mom

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00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 3: Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can also find us

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00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 3: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at

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00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 3: Stuff I'll Never Told You. Thanks as always to our

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00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 3: super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks to you for

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00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: listening Stuff I Never Told You to protection of iHeartRadio's

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00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 3: house Stuff Works. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit iHeartRadio app,

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00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows