1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,276 Speaker 1: Push Kim. 2 00:00:23,556 --> 00:00:25,396 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Against the Rules everyone. 3 00:00:25,436 --> 00:00:26,316 Speaker 1: I'm Michael Lewis. 4 00:00:26,796 --> 00:00:29,036 Speaker 2: I'll admit I came into this season of the show 5 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 2: with some conventional ideas about why people gamble. Of course, 6 00:00:33,876 --> 00:00:36,396 Speaker 2: some people think they can make money, but also maybe 7 00:00:36,396 --> 00:00:38,236 Speaker 2: they just want to impress people or hang out with 8 00:00:38,276 --> 00:00:40,236 Speaker 2: their friends while at a game or a casino. 9 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:41,876 Speaker 1: And maybe that's true. 10 00:00:41,596 --> 00:00:43,916 Speaker 2: For a subset of folks who like to bet, but 11 00:00:43,996 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 2: that overlooks all the gamblers who play the slots. 12 00:00:47,636 --> 00:00:50,836 Speaker 3: We often think of gambling as being a way to 13 00:00:50,876 --> 00:00:55,756 Speaker 3: get something for nothing. And what I learned in my 14 00:00:56,236 --> 00:01:01,676 Speaker 3: extended research with particularly slot machine gamblers, which are the 15 00:01:01,996 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 3: Golden Geese of the industry revenue wise, that they're really 16 00:01:05,516 --> 00:01:09,236 Speaker 3: after getting nothing, not something for nothing. 17 00:01:10,156 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 2: That's Natasha Shole an associate professor in the Department of Media, 18 00:01:14,356 --> 00:01:18,716 Speaker 2: Culture and Communication at NYU. She was trained as an 19 00:01:18,716 --> 00:01:21,916 Speaker 2: anthropologist and she did more than a decade of work 20 00:01:21,916 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 2: in Vegas casinos, especially among the slot machine players. 21 00:01:26,076 --> 00:01:29,316 Speaker 3: They're after what they call a kind of machine zone 22 00:01:30,116 --> 00:01:34,756 Speaker 3: where time and space and daily demands and worries fall 23 00:01:34,916 --> 00:01:38,596 Speaker 3: away and they go into a kind of rhythmic flow 24 00:01:38,796 --> 00:01:42,596 Speaker 3: of repetitive action that zones them away from the world. 25 00:01:43,316 --> 00:01:46,756 Speaker 2: Natasha's book, Addiction by Design is a fascinating look at 26 00:01:46,796 --> 00:01:50,956 Speaker 2: everything from casino design to the digital overhaul of Las Vegas, 27 00:01:51,676 --> 00:01:54,436 Speaker 2: and she makes a very compelling case the slot machines 28 00:01:54,476 --> 00:01:57,356 Speaker 2: explain not just what's happened in Vegas, but in the 29 00:01:57,356 --> 00:02:02,276 Speaker 2: world far beyond, including the world inside our smartphones. Natasha 30 00:02:02,276 --> 00:02:04,516 Speaker 2: had a big effect on the way I think about gambling, 31 00:02:05,036 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 2: and I wanted you to hear our conversation in full. 32 00:02:08,716 --> 00:02:10,596 Speaker 2: How'd you get interested in this in the first place? 33 00:02:11,316 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 3: On my way out to Berkeley for college freshman year, 34 00:02:14,956 --> 00:02:18,076 Speaker 3: I had a layover in Vegas, and greeting me for 35 00:02:18,116 --> 00:02:21,476 Speaker 3: my two hours I spent there where it was these 36 00:02:21,596 --> 00:02:24,716 Speaker 3: banks of machines right there at the exit, and I said, 37 00:02:24,756 --> 00:02:27,356 Speaker 3: what an odd place this is. So when I became 38 00:02:27,356 --> 00:02:30,996 Speaker 3: an anthropology major, I decided that would be an interesting 39 00:02:31,076 --> 00:02:34,196 Speaker 3: topic to explore and it kind of went from there. 40 00:02:35,556 --> 00:02:39,156 Speaker 1: And at that point it's all in Vegas, all in Vegas. 41 00:02:39,356 --> 00:02:41,916 Speaker 3: Vegas I took as a sort of site or case 42 00:02:41,996 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 3: study for looking at this turn in the market, both 43 00:02:46,156 --> 00:02:48,796 Speaker 3: away from the sort of the Baccarah and the green 44 00:02:48,876 --> 00:02:54,916 Speaker 3: felt tables toward slot machines, this more sort of childlike arcade, 45 00:02:55,436 --> 00:02:59,956 Speaker 3: innocent seeming form of gambling as being the revenue lion 46 00:03:00,316 --> 00:03:04,836 Speaker 3: for the city. But also looking at the disneyification of 47 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:09,356 Speaker 3: Las Vegas and the way they were appealing democratizing gambling 48 00:03:09,436 --> 00:03:10,716 Speaker 3: to the mass market. 49 00:03:11,116 --> 00:03:13,836 Speaker 1: What's the history of this? When does gambling take this turn? 50 00:03:14,276 --> 00:03:18,916 Speaker 3: Gammin takes this turn right in line with certain developments 51 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:23,236 Speaker 3: in computer technology and video screen technology. In the past, 52 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 3: slot machines would bring in maybe twenty percent less of revenue, 53 00:03:29,516 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 3: and they pretty quickly, over about a decade a decade 54 00:03:33,516 --> 00:03:36,196 Speaker 3: and a half, went to bringing in eighty to ninety 55 00:03:36,236 --> 00:03:39,956 Speaker 3: percent of revenue. And this was all because of the 56 00:03:39,996 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 3: technology changes and how they enabled the operators and the 57 00:03:44,596 --> 00:03:49,716 Speaker 3: game designers to manipulate odds in far more precise ways, 58 00:03:49,956 --> 00:03:53,396 Speaker 3: appealing to people who are sitting in front of them. 59 00:03:53,436 --> 00:03:54,676 Speaker 3: So you could think of it as a sort of 60 00:03:54,716 --> 00:03:59,196 Speaker 3: algorithmic turn. When is this though, late seventies, some of 61 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:01,996 Speaker 3: this technology is coming on the scenes, and it's sort 62 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:06,156 Speaker 3: of right in line with the personal computer developments. They 63 00:04:06,276 --> 00:04:10,596 Speaker 3: start playing around with putting this technology into slot machines, 64 00:04:10,636 --> 00:04:15,116 Speaker 3: moving away from the analog three reels with twenty two 65 00:04:15,156 --> 00:04:19,196 Speaker 3: stops on each reel. That's really constraining in terms of 66 00:04:19,236 --> 00:04:21,676 Speaker 3: what you can do with the machine like that. But 67 00:04:21,796 --> 00:04:25,436 Speaker 3: once you've got so called virtual reels inside the machine, 68 00:04:25,916 --> 00:04:31,396 Speaker 3: you can really really manipulate how a particular payout schedule 69 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:34,996 Speaker 3: can feel when you're interacting with it. So that really 70 00:04:35,076 --> 00:04:35,916 Speaker 3: was the turn. 71 00:04:36,476 --> 00:04:36,756 Speaker 1: Curious. 72 00:04:36,796 --> 00:04:39,836 Speaker 2: If I'd have walked into a casino in Las Vegas 73 00:04:39,836 --> 00:04:41,716 Speaker 2: in the nineteen sixties, how would it have looked different? 74 00:04:42,316 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 3: So people would have been dressed a lot more elegantly, 75 00:04:46,236 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 3: and you might find slot machines standing around by the 76 00:04:52,716 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 3: check encounter, maybe in hallways and kind of on the 77 00:04:56,316 --> 00:05:00,356 Speaker 3: peripheries of the main gaming areas. Really to serve the 78 00:05:00,396 --> 00:05:05,516 Speaker 3: wives and to serve people who were waiting. They typically 79 00:05:05,556 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 3: didn't have chairs because you weren't really meant to spend 80 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:09,636 Speaker 3: a lot. 81 00:05:09,436 --> 00:05:12,236 Speaker 1: Of time at them, you said, for the wives. 82 00:05:12,796 --> 00:05:18,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a long standing association in this country 83 00:05:18,756 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 3: with women and these what we think of as these 84 00:05:21,916 --> 00:05:25,916 Speaker 3: little tedious arcade light games. So we associate them not 85 00:05:25,956 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 3: only with women, but with older women, right, the cute 86 00:05:29,276 --> 00:05:32,316 Speaker 3: little old ladies going to Atlantic City. We associate them 87 00:05:32,356 --> 00:05:37,396 Speaker 3: with kids and arcades sort of like the equivalent to 88 00:05:37,476 --> 00:05:43,596 Speaker 3: knitting in jangling, and there is something knitting like about 89 00:05:43,636 --> 00:05:46,076 Speaker 3: it when you talk about the kind of repetitive flow 90 00:05:46,156 --> 00:05:48,756 Speaker 3: and zoning away from yourself that you get into. But 91 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:54,356 Speaker 3: it turns out that that flow doesn't select by gender 92 00:05:54,756 --> 00:05:58,236 Speaker 3: if you don't have those stereotypes hanging around. And more 93 00:05:58,276 --> 00:06:01,676 Speaker 3: and more, it's pretty equal the amount of men that 94 00:06:01,756 --> 00:06:06,156 Speaker 3: play these machines versus women. And with sports betting and 95 00:06:06,236 --> 00:06:10,756 Speaker 3: mobile betting, your ears seeing a complet reversal of that 96 00:06:10,836 --> 00:06:15,196 Speaker 3: stereotype associating women with these little apps that you engage with. 97 00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:17,236 Speaker 1: So this is a cultural artfect. 98 00:06:17,276 --> 00:06:21,676 Speaker 2: This is we sort of channel women towards slot machines 99 00:06:21,716 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 2: and men towards the real men's games in the middle 100 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:25,276 Speaker 2: of the casino. 101 00:06:25,796 --> 00:06:28,916 Speaker 3: Yeah. Even in the literature on problem gambling, there's a 102 00:06:28,996 --> 00:06:33,556 Speaker 3: split between so called escape gambling and so called action gambling, 103 00:06:33,556 --> 00:06:36,396 Speaker 3: and guess who the action gamblers are. There's also an 104 00:06:36,396 --> 00:06:41,716 Speaker 3: interesting social history about how men sought out this kind 105 00:06:41,756 --> 00:06:46,156 Speaker 3: of a character contest, especially in the fifties and sixties 106 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:49,596 Speaker 3: when life was relatively boring and you were probably a 107 00:06:49,636 --> 00:06:52,556 Speaker 3: middle manager or a bureaucrat, and so you had to 108 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:54,956 Speaker 3: seek your thrills and your risks and your sort of 109 00:06:54,956 --> 00:06:59,916 Speaker 3: confrontation with other men on the gambling floor, Whereas what 110 00:07:00,196 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 3: women in those days and in the eighties and beyond 111 00:07:04,116 --> 00:07:08,236 Speaker 3: articulated in their addiction and relationships with these slot machines 112 00:07:08,756 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 3: was much more of getting away from people. You would 113 00:07:12,196 --> 00:07:18,076 Speaker 3: often find that those in service positions, waitresses, nurses, accountants, 114 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:21,556 Speaker 3: wanted nothing more than a sort of relief or a 115 00:07:21,636 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 3: respite from people. So it was kind of the opposite tendency. 116 00:07:26,036 --> 00:07:28,956 Speaker 3: Turns out, though, that that's more of a cultural phenomenon 117 00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:31,756 Speaker 3: than one that we can link to gender and a 118 00:07:31,876 --> 00:07:36,636 Speaker 3: Really to prove that point, one could go and look 119 00:07:36,676 --> 00:07:39,876 Speaker 3: at the case in Russia where you had young men 120 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:42,876 Speaker 3: in their twenties and they were the ones who played 121 00:07:42,916 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 3: the exact same games with the same mathematical algorithms as 122 00:07:47,356 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 3: the sixty year old women in the US back in 123 00:07:50,676 --> 00:07:51,316 Speaker 3: the nineties. 124 00:07:51,956 --> 00:07:56,076 Speaker 2: Huh, So, explain to me how what the casino does 125 00:07:57,116 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 2: to shape the experience and shape people's behavior around the 126 00:07:59,876 --> 00:08:00,596 Speaker 2: slot machines. 127 00:08:00,756 --> 00:08:05,796 Speaker 3: I begin with the very bricks and mortar strategies of 128 00:08:05,956 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 3: architecture and interior design. There are giant casino design manuals, 129 00:08:11,636 --> 00:08:14,676 Speaker 3: and you know, if you go to Vegas yourself. I 130 00:08:14,756 --> 00:08:17,636 Speaker 3: encourage you to look for this look down as you're walking, 131 00:08:18,396 --> 00:08:20,516 Speaker 3: and you will be hard pressed to find a lot 132 00:08:20,556 --> 00:08:23,836 Speaker 3: of right angles because right angles are a no no. 133 00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:29,596 Speaker 3: Right angles put you up against a stocking point, into 134 00:08:29,636 --> 00:08:33,236 Speaker 3: a position of a decision maker where you've suddenly got oh, 135 00:08:33,396 --> 00:08:35,596 Speaker 3: now I must make a decision. It sort of forces 136 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:38,396 Speaker 3: you to decide, am I going left or right. You 137 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:41,876 Speaker 3: don't really want to put people in the stance of 138 00:08:41,916 --> 00:08:46,436 Speaker 3: a decision maker, you know, engaging their prefrontal cortex, engaging 139 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 3: their rationality and responsibility. You want to just curve them 140 00:08:50,436 --> 00:08:52,996 Speaker 3: where you want them to go. And so there's you know, 141 00:08:53,156 --> 00:08:56,756 Speaker 3: pages and pages in these casino manuals about how you 142 00:08:56,796 --> 00:09:00,756 Speaker 3: have to gently curve people over into the gaming areas. 143 00:09:01,116 --> 00:09:04,036 Speaker 3: And then once they're in the gaming areas, you don't 144 00:09:04,036 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 3: want to have a lot of overhead space, as you 145 00:09:07,116 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 3: might in a church or some big modernist arena. You 146 00:09:10,956 --> 00:09:14,956 Speaker 3: really want to bring the ceilings down and make people 147 00:09:14,996 --> 00:09:18,996 Speaker 3: feel that they're going into cozy little sanctuaries or caves. 148 00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:21,476 Speaker 3: And this is the language that is in these manuals. 149 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:26,316 Speaker 3: It's very lyrical, almost about creating a physical surround and 150 00:09:26,516 --> 00:09:30,836 Speaker 3: environment that makes you feel safe and alone, so that 151 00:09:30,876 --> 00:09:33,476 Speaker 3: you can zone out into your own little world, because 152 00:09:33,476 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 3: that is very lucrative for the establishment. They also do 153 00:09:37,116 --> 00:09:42,516 Speaker 3: it with so called casino atmospherics, paying close attention to 154 00:09:42,596 --> 00:09:46,756 Speaker 3: the acoustics, the way the sound bounces, not having too 155 00:09:46,796 --> 00:09:50,876 Speaker 3: many bright lights or flashes that draws your attention away 156 00:09:50,956 --> 00:09:53,316 Speaker 3: from the machine. You just want to keep it at 157 00:09:53,356 --> 00:09:58,156 Speaker 3: the machine. One company designed all four hundred of the 158 00:09:58,236 --> 00:10:02,276 Speaker 3: sounds on its slot machines to be in the thought 159 00:10:02,356 --> 00:10:08,036 Speaker 3: to be soothing key of c to keep people. It's 160 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:10,436 Speaker 3: almost an ergonom if you think about it, it's an 161 00:10:10,516 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 3: ergonomics of sensation that extends from the body to what's 162 00:10:15,596 --> 00:10:25,076 Speaker 3: whole being. This is kind of counterintuitive to the way 163 00:10:25,116 --> 00:10:27,316 Speaker 3: that we think about gambling, which is much more of 164 00:10:27,316 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 3: a volatile, suspenseful risk operation. You know, that's what you 165 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 3: see in all of the ads for casinos. But as 166 00:10:35,436 --> 00:10:37,996 Speaker 3: I'm sure you know if you've walked into any casino, 167 00:10:38,756 --> 00:10:42,516 Speaker 3: really the attitude is more one of a sort of 168 00:10:42,556 --> 00:10:48,356 Speaker 3: expressionless face, a reclining posture, and maybe a slight tapping 169 00:10:48,396 --> 00:10:51,196 Speaker 3: of the finger is about all the movement that you 170 00:10:51,236 --> 00:10:51,916 Speaker 3: would see. 171 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:55,276 Speaker 2: No, it's advertised and kind of thought of as a 172 00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:57,636 Speaker 2: social experience. But when you walk through a casino, you're 173 00:10:57,636 --> 00:10:59,396 Speaker 2: not seeing people interacting. 174 00:10:58,876 --> 00:10:59,396 Speaker 1: With each other. 175 00:10:59,956 --> 00:11:03,276 Speaker 3: No, it's really about being away from other people. And 176 00:11:03,396 --> 00:11:06,476 Speaker 3: what really drove this home for me was when gamblers 177 00:11:06,556 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 3: kept talking about how oddly disappointed and anxious they would 178 00:11:11,956 --> 00:11:14,276 Speaker 3: become when they want a jackpot. And I really tried 179 00:11:14,276 --> 00:11:17,396 Speaker 3: to understand, to talk me through this, and they said, well, 180 00:11:18,036 --> 00:11:23,116 Speaker 3: suddenly the game stops playing, right, you can't keep going. 181 00:11:23,236 --> 00:11:27,996 Speaker 3: Your flow is interrupted, loud music plays, people look over 182 00:11:28,116 --> 00:11:31,196 Speaker 3: at you, And that really drug home for me, like 183 00:11:31,236 --> 00:11:34,316 Speaker 3: it's anti social what they were doing. They were precisely 184 00:11:34,356 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 3: trying to get away from themselves and away from the 185 00:11:37,396 --> 00:11:40,516 Speaker 3: social world. So those things we see in the ads 186 00:11:40,556 --> 00:11:44,996 Speaker 3: with groups of people crowding excitedly around a machine is 187 00:11:44,996 --> 00:11:47,196 Speaker 3: really not the way that it plays out for a 188 00:11:47,196 --> 00:11:48,316 Speaker 3: slot machine gambling. 189 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:50,956 Speaker 2: So I don't want to interrupt the flow too much, 190 00:11:50,996 --> 00:11:52,996 Speaker 2: but we're going to take a quick break. When we 191 00:11:53,076 --> 00:11:55,596 Speaker 2: come back, Natasha and I talk about how casino design 192 00:11:55,716 --> 00:12:03,276 Speaker 2: translates onto that little slot machine in our pockets the smartphone, 193 00:12:11,836 --> 00:12:15,236 Speaker 2: and back with Natasha Shull, author of Addiction by Design. 194 00:12:15,996 --> 00:12:20,556 Speaker 2: As more gambling moves out of the casino and just 195 00:12:21,236 --> 00:12:24,636 Speaker 2: into the phone. Is there anything about from any of 196 00:12:24,676 --> 00:12:29,156 Speaker 2: this design that can be applied by the bookies, by 197 00:12:29,196 --> 00:12:34,356 Speaker 2: the gambling companies to affect the behavior of someone who's 198 00:12:34,396 --> 00:12:35,196 Speaker 2: gambling digitally. 199 00:12:35,436 --> 00:12:38,756 Speaker 3: Absolutely, all of the strategies that I just talked to 200 00:12:38,756 --> 00:12:42,476 Speaker 3: you about, without even touching on math yet show up there. 201 00:12:42,596 --> 00:12:47,196 Speaker 3: And these are strategies of removing friction the same way 202 00:12:47,236 --> 00:12:50,156 Speaker 3: that you remove friction from a carpet. By removing a 203 00:12:50,236 --> 00:12:54,916 Speaker 3: decision point, you're removing friction from the flow of the app. 204 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:58,396 Speaker 3: You're making it stickier. You're not increasing what they call 205 00:12:58,476 --> 00:13:01,556 Speaker 3: in the gambling industry, time on device, but you're certainly 206 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:05,796 Speaker 3: increasing time on site. You know, these terms and these 207 00:13:05,836 --> 00:13:10,396 Speaker 3: strategies so neatly carry over from the bricks and mortar 208 00:13:10,476 --> 00:13:15,956 Speaker 3: casinos to anything on the website or online. So if 209 00:13:15,996 --> 00:13:19,516 Speaker 3: you look closely at some of these apps that I've 210 00:13:19,636 --> 00:13:23,196 Speaker 3: just mentioned, you will find all manner of slot machine strategy. 211 00:13:23,196 --> 00:13:29,116 Speaker 3: You'll even find bars lining up, you'll find confetti, so 212 00:13:29,116 --> 00:13:32,476 Speaker 3: so many things all geared to keep you in that zone. 213 00:13:33,396 --> 00:13:35,036 Speaker 1: So I sit down at the slot machine, We're going 214 00:13:35,116 --> 00:13:37,516 Speaker 1: to see analogies too. When we look at just our. 215 00:13:37,396 --> 00:13:41,596 Speaker 2: Phone that keeps me going and gets me addicted. 216 00:13:42,076 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the big challenges that they were facing 217 00:13:45,276 --> 00:13:49,156 Speaker 3: was that they were basically saying, ough, our market is 218 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,036 Speaker 3: dying out. What are we going to do, Like, we're 219 00:13:52,076 --> 00:13:56,356 Speaker 3: basically going to go extinct because our gamblers are fifty 220 00:13:56,356 --> 00:13:59,156 Speaker 3: to sixty year old women. How do we bring in 221 00:13:59,196 --> 00:14:02,236 Speaker 3: the youth? Then they said, oh, it looks like, you know, 222 00:14:02,316 --> 00:14:06,996 Speaker 3: young men are liking playing this online poker, so let's 223 00:14:07,156 --> 00:14:11,236 Speaker 3: try to import demension of online poker into the casino. 224 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:15,756 Speaker 3: So you would see poker tables that, instead of having 225 00:14:15,876 --> 00:14:20,556 Speaker 3: actual dealers, would have avatars, and while you were waiting 226 00:14:20,636 --> 00:14:23,876 Speaker 3: to take your turn, because you know, if you're online 227 00:14:23,956 --> 00:14:28,356 Speaker 3: playing twenty tables at once, which is often what online 228 00:14:28,356 --> 00:14:31,236 Speaker 3: poker players do, you're not going to want to wait 229 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:35,476 Speaker 3: sitting there to take your turn. So they would give 230 00:14:35,516 --> 00:14:38,196 Speaker 3: you a screen on which you could play other games, 231 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:41,036 Speaker 3: usually more profitable to the house than poker while you 232 00:14:41,036 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 3: were waiting for your turn. So they were throwing all 233 00:14:43,516 --> 00:14:49,396 Speaker 3: sorts of technology and schemes at the casino floor trying 234 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:53,236 Speaker 3: to draw in young men. Nothing really was working. They 235 00:14:53,236 --> 00:14:56,876 Speaker 3: were also at the time fighting very much against mobile gambling. 236 00:14:56,956 --> 00:14:59,796 Speaker 3: So if you just look back at the history of 237 00:14:59,876 --> 00:15:06,356 Speaker 3: how the industry has positioned itself. They were absolutely lobbying, 238 00:15:06,556 --> 00:15:10,556 Speaker 3: throwing all they had against the the coming tides of 239 00:15:10,676 --> 00:15:16,516 Speaker 3: mobile or online gambling. Then around twenty seventeen they just 240 00:15:16,556 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 3: capitulate it. They said, you know, we have to accept 241 00:15:18,956 --> 00:15:22,796 Speaker 3: this is the direction that things are going in. So 242 00:15:22,876 --> 00:15:24,836 Speaker 3: we're just going to get on the train. Let's get 243 00:15:24,876 --> 00:15:27,676 Speaker 3: on the train. And now with so many states offering 244 00:15:27,796 --> 00:15:34,476 Speaker 3: legal sports betting, you see with DraftKings, with Caesars, in 245 00:15:34,596 --> 00:15:39,396 Speaker 3: so many cases, this embrace of mobile online gambling, and 246 00:15:39,436 --> 00:15:42,996 Speaker 3: the truth is the young men like it, not just 247 00:15:43,036 --> 00:15:45,516 Speaker 3: the young men, but you know it's also getting women 248 00:15:45,636 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 3: over it to sports betting, which has never been the case. 249 00:15:50,076 --> 00:15:50,836 Speaker 1: Is that true? 250 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:54,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely know that. I mean, just it's the same 251 00:15:54,276 --> 00:15:58,556 Speaker 3: exact rhetoric as you saw with Robin hood app and 252 00:15:58,676 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 3: others that so called democratized day trading by making in 253 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:08,956 Speaker 3: part by making it friendlier, you didn't have that experience 254 00:16:08,996 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 3: of being a woman who had no cultural background. And 255 00:16:13,716 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 3: in sports betting, you're very unlikely to want to walk 256 00:16:16,956 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 3: into a sports book with the old guys in there 257 00:16:20,196 --> 00:16:24,156 Speaker 3: and figure out what a prop bet is. But you 258 00:16:24,196 --> 00:16:27,956 Speaker 3: can do that online it's very friendly. No one is 259 00:16:28,076 --> 00:16:31,236 Speaker 3: watching your friends or maybe doing it. So yeah, we've 260 00:16:31,316 --> 00:16:35,676 Speaker 3: seen not only has the gambling industry found a way 261 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 3: to really entice men in and sort of bring them 262 00:16:39,236 --> 00:16:42,476 Speaker 3: over into other areas of gambling, it's been a way 263 00:16:42,516 --> 00:16:44,356 Speaker 3: to bring women into sports betting. 264 00:16:44,916 --> 00:16:47,476 Speaker 2: If I put you in charge of a sports betting app, 265 00:16:47,916 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 2: knowing what you know about slots and women, what would 266 00:16:51,436 --> 00:16:54,556 Speaker 2: you encourage them to do to encourage more women to 267 00:16:54,636 --> 00:16:56,156 Speaker 2: become addicted to sports gambling. 268 00:16:57,316 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 3: Some of the things that a company might think it 269 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:02,716 Speaker 3: should do, which are just sort of laughable and absurd 270 00:17:03,036 --> 00:17:05,916 Speaker 3: but might work a little bit, would be, you know, 271 00:17:06,996 --> 00:17:10,156 Speaker 3: changing the tones, making a sort of I remember, I 272 00:17:10,196 --> 00:17:13,316 Speaker 3: remember there was one case on the casino floor where 273 00:17:13,596 --> 00:17:17,436 Speaker 3: they figured out that men exiting a sort of dirty 274 00:17:17,476 --> 00:17:22,796 Speaker 3: review show were bothering young women who were playing and 275 00:17:22,956 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 3: you know, giving a lot of their money to the casino. 276 00:17:25,036 --> 00:17:28,396 Speaker 3: And the casino didn't like this, so they advertised directly 277 00:17:28,436 --> 00:17:32,116 Speaker 3: to all those women in their thirties saying, we have 278 00:17:32,236 --> 00:17:36,916 Speaker 3: created a women's only slot shelter for you. We have 279 00:17:37,036 --> 00:17:42,036 Speaker 3: decorated it in lavender, we have special little drink cups 280 00:17:42,076 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 3: for you. Come be pampered like you're in a spa. 281 00:17:44,676 --> 00:17:47,516 Speaker 3: It was sort of like a spa slash slot shelter, 282 00:17:48,156 --> 00:17:51,756 Speaker 3: which was just so interesting gender wise, and it did 283 00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:56,836 Speaker 3: actually increase their revenue. So the aesthetics do count. And 284 00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:00,796 Speaker 3: if you make it less like all black with white 285 00:18:00,916 --> 00:18:05,836 Speaker 3: and these sort of macho truck like symbols and sort of, 286 00:18:05,996 --> 00:18:08,956 Speaker 3: you know, do a little aby testing, throw in some lavender, 287 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:10,116 Speaker 3: see what comes up. 288 00:18:11,356 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 2: So don't you all run out to that lavender slot 289 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:14,676 Speaker 2: shelter just yet. 290 00:18:15,076 --> 00:18:15,916 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. 291 00:18:27,036 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 2: I'm back with NYU's Natasha shol Back. When we recorded 292 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:33,116 Speaker 2: this interview, I was still planning the previous episode in 293 00:18:33,156 --> 00:18:35,916 Speaker 2: this feed, the one where my son Walker is set 294 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:38,436 Speaker 2: up with a sports betting account as a kind of experiment. 295 00:18:39,476 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 1: I wanted to get Natasha's advice on all this. 296 00:18:42,076 --> 00:18:43,956 Speaker 2: So his neuroscience teacher is going to try to explain 297 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:45,956 Speaker 2: to him what's going on in his brain as he 298 00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 2: gets into this. Do you think it's a bad idea 299 00:18:48,956 --> 00:18:51,836 Speaker 2: to introduce my seventeen year old to sports gambling? 300 00:18:52,356 --> 00:18:56,476 Speaker 3: So I don't know how that it's that bad of 301 00:18:56,476 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 3: an idea, because that suggests that there's something super unique 302 00:19:00,236 --> 00:19:04,156 Speaker 3: about this that this is sort of like some intense 303 00:19:04,236 --> 00:19:08,116 Speaker 3: heroin like thing that could turn you for life, when 304 00:19:08,196 --> 00:19:10,916 Speaker 3: in fact, and this is a point I always like 305 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 3: to make, and those who would like to use my 306 00:19:14,276 --> 00:19:19,596 Speaker 3: voice to sort of speak against the gambling industry don't 307 00:19:19,596 --> 00:19:22,356 Speaker 3: always like it when I do this. And this is 308 00:19:22,396 --> 00:19:26,916 Speaker 3: to observe that these gambling apps are part of a 309 00:19:26,956 --> 00:19:32,356 Speaker 3: wider ecology that extend not only to candy crush, but 310 00:19:32,476 --> 00:19:38,196 Speaker 3: also to apps for regulating your diabetes management or even 311 00:19:38,236 --> 00:19:42,916 Speaker 3: your banking. It is so around us, and the idea 312 00:19:42,956 --> 00:19:46,876 Speaker 3: that your seventeen year old boy would not have already 313 00:19:46,956 --> 00:19:52,356 Speaker 3: encountered in spades this kind of stuff floating around in 314 00:19:52,476 --> 00:19:58,436 Speaker 3: social media is just not realistic, right, So this is 315 00:19:58,516 --> 00:20:02,236 Speaker 3: just going to be a sort of focused case for 316 00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:05,396 Speaker 3: him of something that I think he's already very familiar with. 317 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 3: What I would recommend is trying to have the neuroscientist 318 00:20:11,596 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 3: riding alongside in his mind as a kind of layer 319 00:20:15,036 --> 00:20:18,956 Speaker 3: of awareness. So he's almost doing like anthropology of himself 320 00:20:18,996 --> 00:20:23,436 Speaker 3: auto ethnography, right, And I think that that kind of 321 00:20:23,476 --> 00:20:27,716 Speaker 3: awareness isn't entirely protective, but in general it's a great 322 00:20:27,756 --> 00:20:30,116 Speaker 3: way of going through the world, sort of watching how 323 00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:33,236 Speaker 3: am I reacting to certain things. How are they manipulating me? 324 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:37,916 Speaker 3: That's a good attitude to have. I think anything that 325 00:20:37,956 --> 00:20:39,556 Speaker 3: came in front of you, as it's going to come 326 00:20:39,556 --> 00:20:42,316 Speaker 3: in front of your son. You can sort of have 327 00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 3: a rubric for performing an audit of how odious or 328 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:50,116 Speaker 3: dangerous it is. And so my rubric has four things 329 00:20:50,156 --> 00:20:56,276 Speaker 3: on it, and one of them is the easy and 330 00:20:56,356 --> 00:21:00,756 Speaker 3: constant access. So we know, we know for a while 331 00:21:01,316 --> 00:21:03,956 Speaker 3: in the bricks and mortar landscape that if you live 332 00:21:04,076 --> 00:21:07,876 Speaker 3: fifty miles or closer to a casino, you are probably 333 00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:11,796 Speaker 3: that's fifty percent more likely to develop a problem. So 334 00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:14,996 Speaker 3: I like to think about the mobile phone and sports 335 00:21:14,996 --> 00:21:21,636 Speaker 3: betting that is five inches right, So it's just constantly there. 336 00:21:22,076 --> 00:21:25,076 Speaker 3: The portal is open, it's inviting you, it's there. So 337 00:21:25,116 --> 00:21:29,716 Speaker 3: you've got this easy and constant access, no friction. Right. 338 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 3: There's also a removal of the social component. It's very solitary. 339 00:21:36,316 --> 00:21:39,556 Speaker 3: That seems to be something which is fertile ground for 340 00:21:39,636 --> 00:21:42,676 Speaker 3: these kind of machine zones that one could get caught 341 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:45,836 Speaker 3: in and continue to seek out in a kind of 342 00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:50,316 Speaker 3: addictive way. And you might be thinking, but really does 343 00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:52,836 Speaker 3: it really remove the social component? And we're talking about 344 00:21:52,876 --> 00:21:55,556 Speaker 3: sports betting, there's so many other people. There's this whole 345 00:21:55,596 --> 00:22:00,236 Speaker 3: culture to it, and there is like athletes on the field. 346 00:22:00,876 --> 00:22:03,796 Speaker 3: The truth is, when you were doing this betting, it 347 00:22:03,916 --> 00:22:06,596 Speaker 3: is you and your phone, just like when you're doing 348 00:22:06,636 --> 00:22:10,476 Speaker 3: online dating. There's an odd way in which removes the 349 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:13,916 Speaker 3: other people and turns them into a game. And you know, 350 00:22:13,956 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 3: there's a lawsuit going on right now against Hinge that 351 00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:20,956 Speaker 3: says this is going on right So instead of going 352 00:22:20,956 --> 00:22:22,436 Speaker 3: out and having a date, you end up in your 353 00:22:22,436 --> 00:22:24,836 Speaker 3: bedroom swiping left and right, and so this is kind 354 00:22:24,876 --> 00:22:27,116 Speaker 3: of the equivalent. You're not going on an outing with 355 00:22:27,196 --> 00:22:31,716 Speaker 3: the buddies to this race track. You are with your 356 00:22:31,876 --> 00:22:36,476 Speaker 3: phone constantly clicking away. It's very solitary and you can 357 00:22:36,516 --> 00:22:41,436 Speaker 3: go your own speed. Another saying is that there is 358 00:22:41,556 --> 00:22:45,716 Speaker 3: no natural end to the things that seem to grip 359 00:22:45,836 --> 00:22:50,436 Speaker 3: us most tightly in this click economy. You might say, oh, 360 00:22:50,436 --> 00:22:53,556 Speaker 3: but in sports there is. It's built in because the 361 00:22:53,636 --> 00:22:57,796 Speaker 3: game ends, the race ends, right. That used to be 362 00:22:57,876 --> 00:23:01,836 Speaker 3: the case. Addiction researchers in gambling used to talk about, oh, well, 363 00:23:01,876 --> 00:23:06,116 Speaker 3: sports isn't so bad because the event frequency is one, 364 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:09,516 Speaker 3: whereas the event frequency for a slot machine could be 365 00:23:09,636 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 3: twelve hundred hands an hour. You can only run one 366 00:23:13,156 --> 00:23:15,876 Speaker 3: horse race an hour. This is no longer the case 367 00:23:16,236 --> 00:23:19,516 Speaker 3: when you're bringing in apps and technology, because if you've 368 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:22,716 Speaker 3: still got that energy for doing this kind of betting, 369 00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:28,076 Speaker 3: it seamlessly transfers over to you know, you could find 370 00:23:28,076 --> 00:23:31,236 Speaker 3: your people, say they find themselves betting on basketball and 371 00:23:31,436 --> 00:23:35,676 Speaker 3: Belgium or ping pong and China. You know, time zones 372 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:39,596 Speaker 3: don't even matter anymore. You're not even constricted by space 373 00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:42,676 Speaker 3: or time, so you can just keep flowing and think 374 00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:44,996 Speaker 3: about it. There is no natural end, so it's the 375 00:23:45,116 --> 00:23:49,636 Speaker 3: cont it's the availability of continuity, another sort of removal 376 00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:53,236 Speaker 3: of friction. And then you know, the final thing is 377 00:23:53,356 --> 00:23:55,916 Speaker 3: just to go back to our friend B. F. Skinner, 378 00:23:56,116 --> 00:23:58,996 Speaker 3: and perhaps your son has already had that high school 379 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:04,956 Speaker 3: class about behaviorist science. A Skinner box is a setup 380 00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:09,676 Speaker 3: usually with levers or little lights and whatever ammal is 381 00:24:09,676 --> 00:24:12,276 Speaker 3: in there is going to be like pecking to see 382 00:24:12,276 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 3: what comes next. And he found, after experimenting with a 383 00:24:16,316 --> 00:24:21,196 Speaker 3: vast array of different sort of output schemes, different algorithms, 384 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 3: you could say that the one that's going to keep 385 00:24:23,916 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 3: you pecking, ignoring your water and ignoring your friends is 386 00:24:27,956 --> 00:24:30,196 Speaker 3: the one where you never know how much is coming out, 387 00:24:30,236 --> 00:24:32,556 Speaker 3: and you never know when. If you know that you 388 00:24:32,676 --> 00:24:35,236 Speaker 3: peck ten times and you get your pellet, you'll peck 389 00:24:35,276 --> 00:24:37,236 Speaker 3: ten times, you'll get your pellet, you'll go playing with 390 00:24:37,276 --> 00:24:40,996 Speaker 3: your friends. Not so if you don't know. There's something 391 00:24:41,036 --> 00:24:45,676 Speaker 3: about that uncertainty. And what the slot machine and what 392 00:24:46,676 --> 00:24:49,916 Speaker 3: so many of these apps that we've been talking about 393 00:24:50,036 --> 00:24:54,596 Speaker 3: do is they're constantly sort of opening that interval of uncertainty, 394 00:24:54,636 --> 00:24:56,356 Speaker 3: and then you can reveal it and then you can 395 00:24:56,396 --> 00:24:59,516 Speaker 3: open it again. So it's open closed, open closed, and 396 00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 3: it's very very fast, so it sort of exceeds the 397 00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:08,156 Speaker 3: capacity of the brain. Maybe the neuroscientist will talk about 398 00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:12,236 Speaker 3: this to your son to compute and process what is 399 00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:16,236 Speaker 3: going on, and you really just get caught in this flow. 400 00:25:16,796 --> 00:25:19,516 Speaker 2: You know what's interesting about that is I'm just thinking, 401 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:23,556 Speaker 2: maybe this is a stupid thought. But with slot machines, 402 00:25:24,636 --> 00:25:29,876 Speaker 2: the user is experiencing it as uncertainty, but the casino 403 00:25:30,196 --> 00:25:33,036 Speaker 2: is totally certain that if you sit there long enough, 404 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:37,036 Speaker 2: you're going to lose all your money. It's calibrated that way, 405 00:25:37,236 --> 00:25:41,036 Speaker 2: and you just can't perceive the deep certainty that's there. 406 00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:43,436 Speaker 3: This is sort of the argument that I'm making about 407 00:25:43,436 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 3: why it is predatory is because you've got this giant, 408 00:25:47,116 --> 00:25:51,836 Speaker 3: well financed corporate apparatus that can use numbers in a 409 00:25:51,876 --> 00:25:55,756 Speaker 3: way both algorithmically and in terms of its overall revenue. 410 00:25:56,156 --> 00:26:00,556 Speaker 3: They know absolutely, certainly, down to decimal points, what they're 411 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:05,076 Speaker 3: going to get, and they are preying on the gambler's 412 00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:08,036 Speaker 3: total uncertainty about what they're going to get. So I 413 00:26:08,076 --> 00:26:11,196 Speaker 3: call it asymmetric collusion. You know, they both want the 414 00:26:11,236 --> 00:26:14,556 Speaker 3: playing to be happening, but for utterly different reasons. The 415 00:26:14,596 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 3: gambler wants to zone out and the corporation wants its revenue. 416 00:26:20,276 --> 00:26:23,836 Speaker 2: The sports book, I suppose, might be designed in a 417 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:26,716 Speaker 2: way that's similar to the slot machine that if you 418 00:26:26,756 --> 00:26:29,676 Speaker 2: play enough with it, you're going to lose m hm, 419 00:26:30,356 --> 00:26:33,356 Speaker 2: although I don't think they actually are. I mean, a 420 00:26:33,876 --> 00:26:35,876 Speaker 2: sharp player can come in and beat the book, then 421 00:26:35,916 --> 00:26:37,396 Speaker 2: in a way, a sharp player can't come in and 422 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 2: beat the slot, but the sports themselves are genuinely uncertain. Yes, 423 00:26:44,356 --> 00:26:46,436 Speaker 2: So this thing that you said that makes it so 424 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:50,996 Speaker 2: naturally addictive is hardwired into the product in a way 425 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:54,516 Speaker 2: it's not in most casino games. 426 00:26:55,036 --> 00:27:02,236 Speaker 3: Well. Interestingly, the slot machines that are most high erring today. 427 00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:06,956 Speaker 3: And this is maybe since the two thousands are called 428 00:27:07,076 --> 00:27:11,156 Speaker 3: multi line slot machine. And when I say multiline, I 429 00:27:11,196 --> 00:27:14,636 Speaker 3: mean like five hundred lines. And so instead of betting 430 00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:18,196 Speaker 3: on one row of symbols across and then you win 431 00:27:18,316 --> 00:27:22,236 Speaker 3: or you lose, then they fold it in three, they 432 00:27:22,236 --> 00:27:24,996 Speaker 3: added to diagonals to make five. And then when you're 433 00:27:25,036 --> 00:27:29,476 Speaker 3: talking about physical reels, they maxed out. Once video technology 434 00:27:29,556 --> 00:27:34,276 Speaker 3: came along and virtual reels and computers, they're able to 435 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:41,836 Speaker 3: allow you on a computer screen to bet sideways diagonal scattershots, 436 00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:44,236 Speaker 3: so you don't even know where the things are lining up. 437 00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:47,956 Speaker 3: It's just dots and you can't really even tell what's 438 00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:50,556 Speaker 3: going on. And then, if you think about it, each 439 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:56,836 Speaker 3: each bet is a moment of learning and reinforcement in 440 00:27:56,876 --> 00:28:03,276 Speaker 3: the behaviorist sense. So if you're betting hundreds of times 441 00:28:03,316 --> 00:28:05,756 Speaker 3: instead of just once on the outcome of the game, 442 00:28:07,076 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 3: each one of those bets is yet another moment of 443 00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:13,956 Speaker 3: sort of reinforcing the behavior or sort of pulling them 444 00:28:14,036 --> 00:28:17,556 Speaker 3: into it. So I think it's pretty clear why it 445 00:28:17,596 --> 00:28:23,516 Speaker 3: would be more addictive in the online interface. There have 446 00:28:23,596 --> 00:28:27,596 Speaker 3: been calls to ban multi line slot machines, because it 447 00:28:27,676 --> 00:28:30,116 Speaker 3: seems that the higher the number of lines you can 448 00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:33,356 Speaker 3: bet on, it's almost like diversifying your portfolio. You put 449 00:28:33,356 --> 00:28:37,156 Speaker 3: one hundred pennies on the machine, and you win forty back, 450 00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:39,716 Speaker 3: then you put fifty in and maybe you win sixty. 451 00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:42,116 Speaker 3: Then you put the sixty in, then you win twenty, 452 00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 3: and you're just going along so fast, and most of 453 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:49,156 Speaker 3: the time you're not actually winning. You're losing, but you're 454 00:28:49,196 --> 00:28:52,636 Speaker 3: taking more time to lose, and along the way you 455 00:28:52,716 --> 00:28:56,236 Speaker 3: feel like you're sort of winning all along. And this 456 00:28:56,316 --> 00:28:59,356 Speaker 3: has been the real formula of giving people more time 457 00:28:59,396 --> 00:29:03,196 Speaker 3: on device so's to take more of their money during 458 00:29:03,276 --> 00:29:06,716 Speaker 3: that time. That's the formula of the gambling industry. And 459 00:29:06,756 --> 00:29:10,036 Speaker 3: you can see it a little bit. You can draw 460 00:29:10,076 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 3: that parallel to the in game betting. You're keeping someone 461 00:29:13,596 --> 00:29:18,436 Speaker 3: continually engaged and hooked in to the flow of the game, 462 00:29:18,556 --> 00:29:20,196 Speaker 3: so it makes a lot of sense that when the 463 00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 3: game comes to an end, they're going to want to 464 00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:23,916 Speaker 3: keep playing it. 465 00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:29,756 Speaker 2: Thanks so much to Natasha Schul for a fascinating conversation, 466 00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:33,716 Speaker 2: and check out our book Addiction by Design. Machine Gambling 467 00:29:33,716 --> 00:29:36,636 Speaker 2: in Las Vegas. By the way, I'm not done with 468 00:29:36,676 --> 00:29:40,036 Speaker 2: you guys yet. Next week, I speak with doctor Lorie Santos, 469 00:29:40,596 --> 00:29:43,316 Speaker 2: host of the Happiness Lab here at Pushkin, about how 470 00:29:43,316 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 2: the sports betting apps take advantage of the teenage male brain. 471 00:29:47,476 --> 00:29:50,956 Speaker 4: But I think adolescent brains in general are prone to 472 00:29:51,356 --> 00:29:54,636 Speaker 4: risk taking and prone to really seeking out belonging in 473 00:29:54,676 --> 00:29:57,396 Speaker 4: whatever form it's sort of presented, and so I feel 474 00:29:57,396 --> 00:30:01,076 Speaker 4: like these cues to belonging are especially salient to young 475 00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:01,796 Speaker 4: boys too. 476 00:30:03,716 --> 00:30:06,156 Speaker 2: Against the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael 477 00:30:06,236 --> 00:30:10,436 Speaker 2: Lewis and produced by Lydia gene Kott, Catherine Gerardeau, and 478 00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:15,756 Speaker 2: Ariela Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is 479 00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:20,276 Speaker 2: Sarah Bruguier. Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. 480 00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:24,476 Speaker 2: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, 481 00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:29,116 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, And if 482 00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:31,596 Speaker 2: you'd like to listen to ad free and learn about 483 00:30:31,596 --> 00:30:34,796 Speaker 2: other exclusive offerings, don't forget to sign up for a 484 00:30:34,836 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin, dot fm, slash plus, or 485 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:48,956 Speaker 2: on our Apple show page.