WEBVTT - Our National Intelligence 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:04.520 I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.880 CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:09.600 in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.720 And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East, 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.880 and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:17.840 our adversaries. 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.800 Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:23.599 theories large and small. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.320 Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:34.040 This is mission implausible. So here in Washington, Jerry, you 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.360 get to avoid it because you're hiding out there in Hawaii. 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.160 But here in Washington it is still every day there's 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.320 new information about Trump nominees. 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.839 Only somebody would write an our editorial in the New 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:44.680 York Times. 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:47.640 Well I did. I went on a PBS news hour 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.120 to talk about this the other day, and today an 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.440 article just came out in the New York Times called 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.760 running Spies is Not a Game for Amateurs that I 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.520 wrote along with former CIA and NSA Director General Michael Hayden, 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.520 who we both respect as a great long time intelligence 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.320 professional and was it a really excellent director at this CIA. 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.119 So this happens to be a lot about what we're 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:08.240 going to talk about today, it's really Jermane Now I 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:09.080 got to reread it. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.080 I've wanted to talk to you about this for a while. 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:16.240 Telsea Gabbard being nominated to be the Director of National Intelligence, 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.479 it freaking a lot of people out, even a lot 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.840 of Republicans out. Can we start with it? 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:22.040 So? 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.320 Was there a Director of National Intelligence but when you 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.920 were still in CIA or did that come after it happened? 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:31.880 If you remember in two thousand and four, after the 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.800 nine to eleven when President Bush was running again and 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.039 there was a lot of back and forth about how 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.440 they were going to respond from nine to eleven, and 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:42.760 a new law came in to create the Director of 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.800 National Intelligence, and it was meant to be a way 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.680 of making sure that the intelligence community works better together 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:50.680 and all those other kind of things. And so it's 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.080 a fairly new, I guess maybe twenty years old now, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.120 organization which is meant to deal with the budgets and 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.640 the bigger picture issues about the intelligence community. 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.800 Yeah. She would oversee eighteen intelligence agencies, different ones that 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.160 the US has, and she has a budget of about 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.919 seventy billion dollars and she serves as the principal advisor 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.480 to the President on intelligence matters. 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.360 It includes the intelligence community parts of the military. Now 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.720 it's a little different because she doesn't control them, because 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.520 they're controlled by the Secretary of Defense. So the NSA 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.600 is essentially a part of the Defense Department, as are 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.480 the intelligence services in the Marines and Army and Navy 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.240 and such, and so the DNI has that role of 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.760 working over all of those different eighteen organizations, some of 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.040 them directly under the DNI and some of them jointly 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.560 with the military, and also the FBI, which is part 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:40.760 of the Justice Department as well. 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.960 And scarily, she, at least in theory d or the 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.760 DNI sets like folk guy, what it is we're going 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:49.639 to be focused on. And she can do that through 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.280 budgets too, by controlling budgets, So you increase the counter 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.080 terrorism budget, so you go after counter terrorism. But if 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.600 you've got a conspiracy theorist, anyone who says I want 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:03.079 to spend ten billion dollars dollars saying did the US 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:07.320 support secret bio labs creating pathogens in ukrain which we 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.920 didn't complete, lie, you could still spend ten billion dollars 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.080 searching for a snipe that doesn't exist. Right, that's where 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:15.960 the danger comes in. And so you still put the 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.880 focus on something that either isn't true or doesn't exist or. 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.200 Well, in theory that should be done in coordination with 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.280 air Security advisor and in a state department and all these 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.720 other types of things. But yes, person has quite a 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.400 bit of influence. And what's interesting is I think a 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.320 lot of these Trump folks that are coming in, they 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.200 have such misperceptions about the agencies they're meant to run, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.480 whether it's the FBI or the DNI, the CIA, And 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:39.600 I think they're going to come in like toilsa geber' 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:41.040 is gonna come in and thinking she's going to be 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.040 able to find some deep state thing or some fascinating stuff, 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.080 so she's gonna be able to immediately deal with it. 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.480 And like the first day, she's going to be sitting 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.240 in like a bunch of incredibly boring meetings going over 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.640 the Tunisian plan for the next ten years and what 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.000 did the analysts say about the economy and signing off 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.960 on a variety of products and meetings and things. That's 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.480 it's a coordination job. It's they don't run the secret 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.160 operations that you think of with the CIA, with the 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:07.120 NSA or the kind of. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:11.080 Yeah, I spent some time with the National Economic Council 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.360 Chair at the White House. And this is overstating it 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:19.040 that it's a glorified secretary or administrative assistant, because it is. 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.479 The person's views do matter, But it really is there's Treasury, 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.720 there's the FED, there's the They do the work, and 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.320 this is the person who convenes those bodies who know 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.800 they do have a lot of access these like the 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:34.719 D and I, the NSC, the National Economic Council Chair, 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.440 and in a presidency like the one we're about to 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.960 have where the last person in the room has outsized influence. 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.880 From all reports, it's not nothing, but yeah, it's a 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.159 lot of coordinating. So I want to go through a 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.960 couple different things. So one thing is we did this 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:53.240 when we had episodes on President elect Trump. Still hard 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.200 to say those words and Russia, where I'd say, what 0:04:56.279 --> 0:05:00.280 we concluded is we're not in a position to say 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.600 he is an active agent of Russian intelligence. In fact, 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.159 we're skeptical that's the case. But at the same time, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.120 if you look at it through a national security lens, 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:11.680 if he was applying for any job other than the 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.599 job he happened to get, he would not get a 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:18.880 national security clearance. That we talked about how in a 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.880 prosecutorial way, if you want to arrest someone and put 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.680 them in jail, you need beyond a reasonable doubt. But counterintelligence, 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.000 it's more like, does this person give us the act? So, John, 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:30.880 you tell me, because you spent time in Russia. This 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:35.640 is a person who has pretty openly said she supports that. 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.680 Yeah. So I just wrote an opinion piece for the 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.599 New York Times along with former CIA in NSA and 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.239 DNI Director General Michael Hayden. So Telsea Geerber is interesting 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:50.040 because she really embraces conspiracy theories and she champions Russian disinformation. 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.240 And it's not just me. The former Nation Security Advisor 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.600 for President Trump, H. R. McMaster said it specifically that 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.800 she parrots Putin's talking points and so you could talk 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.000 her job. She has no significant experience directing or managing 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.240 much of anything. And I'll let Jerry talk about her 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.839 background in Hawaii. But in terms of the stuff that 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.320 she's done, she's almost like anti national security. She's become 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.719 this avatar for that. She's antagonized the intelligence community in 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.040 person by writing a bill to protect Russian citizen Edward Snowden, 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.080 who ill legally stole as much as two million classified 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:27.479 defense and intelligence documents. She's went to Syria and met 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:32.599 with Syrian Butcher Assad and completely tried to support the 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.120 fact that the Russians weren't bombing children and hospitals and things. 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.280 And so she's very not only is she not qualified, 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.599 she seems to have gone further to be almost working 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.000 against our general national security issues. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.160 If she were to get this job, she would oversee 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.240 these eighteen US intelligence agencies who all have different ways 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.880 of acquiring intelligences, intelligence and analyzing it. And for the 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.760 Assad regime back in twenty seventeen, it and it's Russian 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:05.400 ill is. We're dropping poison gas on civilian populations ile EPO. 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.279 And despite the fact that all eighteen agreed that this 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.120 was going on, she said, I don't believe it. So 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.440 what happens when you gather intelligence, you analyze it. You're 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:18.760 listening to the pilots drop it, You're listening to people 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.200 on the ground screaming. You've smuggled out materials that show 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.480 that siren gas or poison gas was used, And she says, 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.720 I just don't believe it, Well, how do you deal 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.200 with that as an intelligence organization? And I think the 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.520 answer to that is we don't friggin know because it's 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.480 never happened before. Right, This is where you get. There's 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.640 intelligence and facts and when you can analyze the different 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.040 and it can make you can make mistakes. But then 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.800 there's just faith, and you can accept anything on faith. 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.400 If you just say I don't believe it, that could 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.520 be enough. So I live in Awahu and I know 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.000 of through the locals and through the local scuttle but 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.360 and people here, if you come to Hawaii and talk 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:59.560 to the locals here and Kaylu on the windward side, 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.840 I'll tell you that we know where Colsey Gabord comes from. 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.840 It's something called the Science of Identity Foundation, and it's 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.640 like Harry Krishna. They were so crazy that that Harry 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.440 Krishna's kicked them out. And they have this gurus named 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.480 Chris Butler, although he goes with this long Guru something 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.080 or other name now. And the sect that she is 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:26.560 affiliated with is anti gay, stream, anti Muslim, which sort 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.280 of shows why she's willing to reach out to almost 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.600 anybody who's killing Muslims and Stream obedience. You know, there's 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.400 really concern that is she loyal to Chris Butler and 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:40.160 her Hindu Hari Krishna offshoot sect, or is she is 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:44.000 she loyal to the Constitution? And it's unfortunately maybe not 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:45.040 a rhetorical question. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.079 Famously, when she was in Syria after she saw Asad, 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.760 she was taken by her minders to go see where 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.400 the Russians and the Syrians had bombed civilians and a 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:56.440 famous as she was talking to a bunch of children, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.400 and these children whose families and many of their parents 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.280 have been killed and the bombing, were explaining what they'd 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.600 been through. And she looked at them and said, I 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.679 don't know if I believe you. How can you prove 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.320 that this wasn't Isis that did this? And her minder 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:15.400 just almost wanted to explode to say, Isis doesn't have airplanes, right, 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.200 they don't have an air force. It's in the Russia. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:23.880 And when Russian television haul's her Russia's girlfriend, our adversary 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.680 says that she's their Gael freaking take them at their word. 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.400 That that makes me more than Leary. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.240 Culture really matters in our world. You've heard us say 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.040 that before that culture is defined by mission, and culture 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.000 is really important in an organization. And for example, when 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.480 we describe the culture that's different between the CIA and 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:43.800 the FBI, we say that the FBA are cops and 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.760 we're robbers, and so we work together, but it's often 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:48.920 difficult because we have a very different way of looking 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.840 at the world. But when she's coming in and some 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:53.720 of the other people in the Trump administrations and saying 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.520 they won't take background checks, they won't let the FBI 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.000 or others do investigations in background checks, oh my goodness, 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.040 that's failing leadership one on one, because your entire population 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.920 of people who work for you have intrusive background checks, 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.559 and they have polygraphs, and they have to report all 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.200 your bank money and all the things you own, and 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:15.280 you have to do this every year. You have to 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.640 report on every foreigner you meet if you happen to 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.880 be dating for and you have to report all those days. 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.200 And she's going to come in and say, I don't 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.480 need a background check, And that's just crazy. 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.440 And that's true of any culture, right anyone can understand 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:29.200 when everyone has to take a pay cut and you 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.599 find out the CEO got a big stock option that 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:33.320 that doesn't go over very well. 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.000 So there's a law called the Pierce Blackledge Doctrine, and 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.600 it prohibits the US government from punishing a defendant for 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.040 exercising their legal rights right so in your First Amendment 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:48.200 right to assemble or to express an opinion. And close 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.840 to Tulca Gambert is also I think we need to 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.000 discuss the elephant in the room, Cash Mattel, as well, 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.040 because FBI also in a lot of ways more dangerous 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:00.680 because internally it's law enforcement and its intelligence collect and 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.520 Cash Prattel famously has said that he is. He has 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.400 a list and he's published in his book of people 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.839 he's coming for now back to CIA. Among that is 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:17.080 former CIA director right, Gina Hasbell, and current CIA director. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:18.880 Ray FBI director right. 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.200 And so this is without any evidence or anything. He's 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.959 telegraphing vindictive prosecutions, which is illegal in the United States, 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.200 saying he's coming after them, and it doesn't matter if 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.280 there's evidence or not. He says, we'll do it civilly, 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.240 we'll do it criminally. And I think for most Americans, 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.600 CIA and the intelligence community is important, but almost more 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.400 important is rule of law and what they're going to 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.600 do about what Trump calls these enemies within and how 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:51.240 our bureau brothers are going to respond to demands that 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.920 they for the first time when American history, or certainly 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.679 since the nineteen fifties sixties, that the FBI is going 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.000 to go after select political and I think that's if. 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.040 A bigger question is how law enforcement and intelligence will 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.079 work together to either not do that or are there 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.439 enough Quizzlings out there who will come forward and say, yeah, 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:09.920 I'll do it. 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.080 These are very powerful organizations and if they're turned against 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.600 the American public, it really can be very dangerous. 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:17.920 The other thing that's been on my mind, this is 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.840 not the funniest episode we've ever done. You talked in 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.080 an earlier episode about how much of the intelligence that 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.800 is essential to our national security comes from allied powers 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.559 and whether without a background check. I think, just based 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.160 on her own utterances, I don't think I would risk 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.040 my life to share information or even risk a sources 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.040 life or whatever, knowing that Tulsa Gabbert might know who 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.959 gave it to them and who gave it to CIA. 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.720 So can you talk about that, like the chilling effect 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.479 on collaboration with other nations, with other spy services. 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:54.959 Yeah, Foreign partners are going to hesitate to share their 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.160 most precious secrets with us, and not just because they 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.720 think that the leader Tulsea Gabbert or even the president 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.560 might not be trustworthy. That's certainly a real problem. But 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:05.760 if these guys get their way, they talk about destroying 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.120 these organizations, about putting their own people in these positions. 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.160 They're talking about taking all the senior people in the 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.760 FBI and CIA and make them take loyalty tests or 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.240 pushing them out. Foreign partners are not going to work 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.600 with people who aren't professionals but are the tool of 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.000 one political party or another. In fact, the CIA has 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.520 benefited for years and recruited many a spy who was 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.520 disgusted by the corruption and cronyism in their own societies. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.199 So essentially, if we're creating this problem for ourselves, we're 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.240 hurting ourselves in two ways. Our partners aren't going to 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.839 share with us, and people might actually be able to 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.080 recruit American spies to steal things from inside our places. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.040 And when you're recruiting an agent, you're making a very 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.600 long term commitment. Right You're not saying, hey, trust me, 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.560 I will do everything in my power for the next 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.960 three and a half years to keep you safe. And 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.719 then all bets are off right, Like there's an I 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.040 assume implied. I don't know how explicit you have to 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.640 be saying it doesn't matter the president is, doesn't matter 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:02.800 who controls Congress. 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.000 We've got you, I'll keep you alive. Period. 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:06.760 Yeah. 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:08.240 There's no trauma after that. Yeah. 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.800 Yeah. And so recruiting and running spies inside the halls 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:15.040 of places in Moscow or Beijing or Tehran, it's not 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:18.240 an amateur's game. And it takes years and years. And 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.280 that's another thing about the culture. The CIA and the 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:25.080 intelligenmuti is hierarchical, like the defense department. So you're a privator, 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.360 you're a colonel, you're a general, and those things matter, 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:29.480 and it takes years to get from one to the next. 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.800 When somebody comes in who's never done any of those 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.280 things in that most senior position ahead was a very 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.160 low level position, all of a sudden, now they're in 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.920 charge of all of these people who put in time, experience, 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.680 often in hard places, and now this person is the 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:47.800 boss just because they have political connections. That creates another 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:49.720 sort of cultural friction that's going to be it's going 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.920 to be very difficult on allies. 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:57.640 Famously, in twenty sixteen, George Papadopolos got drunk in London 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.200 with the I Commission, the Ambassador, the Australian Ambassador to 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:07.960 Great Britain. George Papadopolis was on Trump's national security team 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.040 when he was running for president as an advisor, and 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.840 he got drunk and he told him in great detail 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.560 that he knows, through a Russian connection because he's talking 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.760 to Russian intelligence during an intermediary, that the Russians have 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.520 got the goods on the Democratic National Committee. They stolen 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:26.720 the emails and these are the emails that they stole 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.880 that both the GRU and the SBR fancy Bear and cozy. 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:35.240 So the Australians came forward to the FBI and said, hey, 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.800 not for nothing, but we got this guy saying that 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.880 the Russians have stolen Democratic National Committee email and the 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.880 FBI goes, oh my god, because they knew they had, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.800 So how did George Poppadopolis know this? This then opens 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.800 up whole Russia Russia Russia quote unquote hoax. This is 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.880 what kicked it off. And then Papadopolis does the right thing. 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:01.440 He lies to the FBI leads his Facebook accounts that 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.920 are incriminating, and he destroys his cell phone so that 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.400 the FBI can't check on what he was saying. And 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.600 so this and not the Steel dossier is what kicked 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.520 off the whole What is the relationship between Russian intelligence 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.760 and Trump World through Papadopoulos. I think this time around, 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:20.880 the Australians would be sold, just keep your house shut, 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.000 Let the Russians do whatever they want to The Americans, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.000 I think what's going to save us, if anything, and 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.960 what I tell myself is their incompetence. If they are 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.120 so incompetent and so corrupt and so unable to carry 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.440 through cash, Hotel Tulsi, Gabbert Hags, all these guys they 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.480 get confirmed. I think what's only going to save us 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:45.080 is bureaucratic sloth and their inability to actually do the 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:46.880 shit that they say they do. 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:52.520 Also, I wonder populists traditionally often make up enemies to attack, institutions, 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.480 to attack to get power, right, But now they're in power. 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:00.600 These are their institutions, right, So now destroying the institutions 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.400 that they rely on doesn't make as much sense now. 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.680 In the past, obviously they were mad about the Russia 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.480 investigations in Hunter Biden's laptop and all those kind of things, 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.240 and that's because they were running for election and they 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.399 wanted to use those as handy attacks against their political rivals. Well, 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.600 now those things don't matter anymore. They're not running for election. 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.360 They're in power. They should want these institutions to work 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.080 effectively for them, So they should put their loyal people 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.119 in charge. So that does it feels comfortable he's got 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.240 people in charge, but they shouldn't look to destroy things further, 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.840 Like Bannon has said, we're going to destroy the administrative state. 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.600 Now that may not be the truth. They may actually 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.080 believe these things. They may believe that there's terrible people 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:39.840 working against the president there and they need to be 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:41.840 destroyed and all these other kind of things. And if 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.760 that's true, that really is dangerous. But perhaps they'll come 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.399 around and realize, hey, like why are we destroying this 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.960 thing that we rely on. There's going to be crisis, 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.399 there's going to be international things that conceivably the administrations 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.800 are going to want strong military and a strong counterintelligence 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:58.240 service and a strong intelligence service. 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.440 So I wanted to end on a funny note, and 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.400 that John, you really found the funniest possible note that 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.920 the entire Trump administration will come in on January twentieth, 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:08.879 and by January twenty third, they'll be like, you know what, 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.000 maybe we should just be super competent professionals who run 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:12.440 this thing. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.600 Really well, let's keep the institution put weaponize them. 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.280 All right, we're going to get right back into that, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:28.200 but first let's hear this, and we're back with Mission implausible. 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.320 So may you live in interesting times? Is that a 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.000 Yiddish curse? Is that a Chinese curse? Who's responsible for that? 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.119 I have heard Chinese, I've never heard it in the 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.840 Yiddish context. And there's a lot of conspiracy theories about 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.240 US Jews. One thing I can say is if there's 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.360 a Yiddish saying, I've heard it. So do you think 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.720 President Biden should just pardon the enemy's list? And I 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.480 want to make clear you to our enemies, you're on 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:54.359 the enemy's list. 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:55.880 So this is a. 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.439 Very hard self you and John, Yes, you know I 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.480 wouldn't take it because my understanding is the pardon is 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:05.040 you have to admit your guilt before you get the 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:06.520 and we haven't done anything wrong. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.240 You haven't done this specific thing wrong. 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:09.880 Yeah, that's true. That's true. 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.000 I'm sure you've done plenty wrong. I feel fairly confident 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:15.359 about that, But I don't know. 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.080 And the issue of pardons, I don't have a great 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.760 take on that, Like that seems to me. When we 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.240 are an intelligence we were focused on collecting the best 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.120 intelligence we could for our policymakers, but we didn't get 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.560 into policy ourselves. We didn't try to advise things that 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.760 should be having. This seems to be very partisan political things. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:38.919 And there's a whole Justice Department, FBI checks stuff behind 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.040 the whole pardon thing, and I just don't know enough 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.159 to say yes, no, should they. We've gotten into this 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.600 game where both sides are like thinking the other sides 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:48.760 up to illegal stuff, and they're going to protect their side, 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.080 and it just seems skeazy and I just as soon 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:52.560 stay away from it. 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.920 No one's above the law, and I think giving pardons, 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:00.200 especially to relatives, it simply shows that there's one set 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.560 of justice for them and another set of justice for 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:08.320 the restless. So when President Trump, then President Trump hardened 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:13.440 Jared Kushner's father who was charged with sixteen tax evasion charges, 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.159 and then he was also charged and found guilty and 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.919 pled guilty to making a sex tape about his own 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.000 brother in law. He lured his own brother in law 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.680 into a tryst with a prostitute, paid her twenty five 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:30.480 thousand dollars, filmed it, and tried to blackmail his brother 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.320