Speaker 1: Hey all, you cool cats and kittens. It's Katie Curic
Speaker 1: and this is a bonus episode of Next Question. You
Speaker 1: probably know Melissa Gilbert best from her time playing Laura
Speaker 1: Ingalls for nine seasons on the classic NBC show Little
Speaker 1: House on the Prairie. What are you doing up there?
Speaker 1: What does it look like I'm doing? Uh huh. You'll
Speaker 1: come down here this minute and get yourself off your school.
Speaker 1: You can, Laura, I'm coming, I'm coming. Well. Melissa has
Speaker 1: done a lot since then. She's continued to act, tried
Speaker 1: her hand at directing, served as the president of the
Speaker 1: Screen Actors Guilled, and even briefly ran for Congress. But
Speaker 1: in recent years she made a decision to start a
Speaker 1: new phase of her life far away from Hollywood. She
Speaker 1: left her native l A to live with her husband,
Speaker 1: the actor and director Timothy Busfield, in rural Michigan, and
Speaker 1: eventually ended up settling in a rustic fix her upper
Speaker 1: cottage in the Catskill Mountains. It was a pretty radical
Speaker 1: lifestyle change for Melissa, and it sparked a number of
Speaker 1: realizations about her old life and the way she wants
Speaker 1: to live now. She writes all about it in her
Speaker 1: new book Back to the prairie. We had a really
Speaker 1: fun conversation about everything from her decision to lose the
Speaker 1: botox to how she found love later in life. I
Speaker 1: hope you'll enjoy our chat as much as I did.
Speaker 1: So you are keeping busy, you are still writing, You're
Speaker 1: still doing a ton of things. But we're here to
Speaker 1: talk about your book, and I know this one, this
Speaker 1: is not your first, but it concentrates on the last
Speaker 1: dozen years of your life. But first I just want
Speaker 1: to catch people up on some of the things that
Speaker 1: happened earlier in your life, Melissa. Because you were adopted,
Speaker 1: you have such a fascinating life. You've lived such an
Speaker 1: interesting life. You were adopted the day after you're born.
Speaker 1: Your dad was an actor and comedian. Your mom was
Speaker 1: a dancer and actress, was becoming a performer, getting into
Speaker 1: show biz. As they say, kind of a foregone conclusion
Speaker 1: given your background. I think so. I think that my
Speaker 1: family was probably really lucky to have adopted someone with
Speaker 1: the blood line of a Carney. Also, I mean I
Speaker 1: was sort of born I was born with jazz hands,
Speaker 1: so it was in me, and then it was nurse
Speaker 1: purtured even more by this family of incredible entertainers. I
Speaker 1: mean going back to my father in his youth started
Speaker 1: out as an acrobat in the circus as a child
Speaker 1: with Ringling brothers. So that's really how the evolution started.
Speaker 1: So I like to think I landed in exactly the
Speaker 1: right place. I only think that there's something to be
Speaker 1: said for show business being in your blood. I just
Speaker 1: interviewed Jennifer Gray about her book and her grandfather, Joel
Speaker 1: Gray's father was also an entertainer. He was like a
Speaker 1: borsch belt comedian, and um, you know, there is something
Speaker 1: about growing up in that environment, isn't there that just
Speaker 1: infuses you with this god a dance feeling. Right. Yes,
Speaker 1: And in my family, it's also multi generational too. It's
Speaker 1: not just my father and my mother and me my
Speaker 1: father's parents. My father's father was an Irish vaudevillian and
Speaker 1: his mother was a French aerialist, and my mother's mother
Speaker 1: was a beauty queen, and my mother's father was a
Speaker 1: comedy writer, started out as a stand up comic and
Speaker 1: created The Honeymooners. So it's definitely something that was just
Speaker 1: a given. I mean, when I as a teenager announced
Speaker 1: to the family that I wanted to go to medical school,
Speaker 1: everybody went, what a doctor? Can't you just play one
Speaker 1: on television? It's kind of the opposite what a normal
Speaker 1: family would say. Sometimes so a showbiz household. Not always,
Speaker 1: but sometimes it comes with a bit of chaos. You
Speaker 1: write about your mom being married several times, your dad
Speaker 1: was married a believe it or not thirteen times, and
Speaker 1: you have to wonder how that UH informed your view
Speaker 1: of marriage, relationships, et cetera. How did it. I don't
Speaker 1: know that I was very good at relationships for a
Speaker 1: really long time. I think, um, I think that well clearly,
Speaker 1: having been married and divorced, or being divorced twice and
Speaker 1: now married for a third time, same goodness, I'm in
Speaker 1: a much better place now after you know, years of growth,
Speaker 1: years of walking through these horrible things, decades of therapy
Speaker 1: of five ending a way to live a really comfortable
Speaker 1: and peaceful life. But it wasn't always that way. And
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily know that I chose. I know that
Speaker 1: I didn't choose easy relationships or people that I knew
Speaker 1: I would have easy relationships. I definitely chose the more
Speaker 1: challenging uh fellas, and it ended up being a lot
Speaker 1: to deal with and I finally reached a point, you know,
Speaker 1: in my my later years in my late forties, where
Speaker 1: I went, what am I doing? I'm I'm sort of
Speaker 1: bending myself into being someone I'm not for, someone who
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily know that I really should be with.
Speaker 1: And it was It's a hard it's a hard realization,
Speaker 1: but it's a really important one because going into my
Speaker 1: marriage with Tim, more than knowing what I do want,
Speaker 1: I know what I don't want, and that's a really
Speaker 1: big deal. More with Melissa Gilbert right after this, in
Speaker 1: your book, you talk very honestly about the mistakes you've
Speaker 1: made or the marriages that didn't work, and you were
Speaker 1: particularly candid about your second marriage to Bruce brockx Lightner,
Speaker 1: who I remember when Uh he was television star. He
Speaker 1: hasn't done that much lately as far as I know,
Speaker 1: but I could be wrong about that. Is that, Um,
Speaker 1: I think he's he has a series on on on
Speaker 1: I think it's on the Lifetime Palmar channel, one of
Speaker 1: the two. But he's he's one of those constantly working actors,
Speaker 1: which is great. Yeah, And but you you write about him,
Speaker 1: and you go into great detail about sort of this
Speaker 1: aha moment you had. I think many relationships have that
Speaker 1: moment when something clicks or snaps, and it was when
Speaker 1: you had surgery and and back surgery specifically, and he
Speaker 1: suggested that you take a car home that he couldn't
Speaker 1: pick you up from the hospital. And what what clicked
Speaker 1: for you when that happened, You know it is I
Speaker 1: was very accustomed through that entire relationship to taking care
Speaker 1: of everyone, and and and and I've done this my
Speaker 1: whole life before this, but it really it multiplied during
Speaker 1: that marriage to taking care of everyone to the detriment
Speaker 1: of myself. Like if everyone got sick and I got
Speaker 1: sick and I climbed into bed, he gets sick, and
Speaker 1: then I'd have to get out of bed to make
Speaker 1: sure he was taken care of or whatever was going on.
Speaker 1: It just I it was just an autopilot thing for me.
Speaker 1: And it's something I also did, you know, being a
Speaker 1: working child actor too. There's no time to be sick,
Speaker 1: there's no time to have broken bones. I worked through
Speaker 1: all that stuff as a kid, so I was very
Speaker 1: good at the show must go on, therefore, life must
Speaker 1: go on. And after I broke my back and had
Speaker 1: urgery to repair it and was ready to go home,
Speaker 1: was being released. I was being released from the hospital
Speaker 1: and going home to home nurses with a walker and
Speaker 1: all the stuff that I needed. And I called him
Speaker 1: and he said he didn't want to drive all the
Speaker 1: way to the hospital, that he just wanted me to
Speaker 1: call a friend or take a car. I hung up
Speaker 1: the phone and I went, I mean I literally was
Speaker 1: like it was like a lightning bolt. I went that
Speaker 1: that's that's actually wrong. It's not and why is it?
Speaker 1: Why am I in this position right now? What is
Speaker 1: it about me that allowed me to be in a
Speaker 1: marriage where it's given that that I would just say, okay,
Speaker 1: call I'll call a town car to drive me home
Speaker 1: after having my broken back fixed. And I thought, this
Speaker 1: is uh, this is this is this is not what
Speaker 1: marriage is supposed to be. Like I could do this
Speaker 1: on my own. If I didn't have a partner. I
Speaker 1: we would be a given that I would have arranged
Speaker 1: for someone to pick me up. It would be a
Speaker 1: given that I would arrange to have all these people
Speaker 1: take care of me. It would be a given that
Speaker 1: I would have arranged to have food dropped off for
Speaker 1: the family and for me um And the fact that
Speaker 1: I had to do that while having a partner led
Speaker 1: me to pause and go, this is this is not
Speaker 1: the partnership I need at this point in my life.
Speaker 1: I can do this on my own, and I'd rather
Speaker 1: just do it on my own and know that I'm
Speaker 1: relying on myself entirely. And that was sort of the
Speaker 1: beginning of of the end. And the more time went on,
Speaker 1: the more I realized how far apart we really were
Speaker 1: and what we either of us wanted in a marriage
Speaker 1: and in life. And that was sort of the real
Speaker 1: If you'll forgive the pun straw that broke the camel's back,
Speaker 1: you have a great, meat cute story about Tim in
Speaker 1: the book, and how that happened. Tell us that story. Um,
Speaker 1: I was. I was going out with my gay best
Speaker 1: friend and a bunch of his friends. We were going
Speaker 1: uh disco dancing in Los Angeles at the time, I
Speaker 1: was living in Los Angeles. Still. We were going out
Speaker 1: to disco night at a club called oil Can Harry's
Speaker 1: in the San Fernando Valley and the goal was to
Speaker 1: meet up at this one restaurant that had board games.
Speaker 1: We're going to have dinner and play board games and
Speaker 1: then go and the restaurant had closed permanently. So my
Speaker 1: friend Daniel and I were driving around and there was
Speaker 1: this little sort of strip mall that had a bar
Speaker 1: in it that I knew about, and I said, well,
Speaker 1: why don't we go there and just kill some time.
Speaker 1: It's right across the street. Everyone can come there. We
Speaker 1: walked in the place that just opened. There was no
Speaker 1: one there, and as soon as we walked in, my
Speaker 1: friend Danny said, I left my phone at your house,
Speaker 1: which was ten minutes away, and I said, we'll go.
Speaker 1: So now I'm alone in a bar, which never ever
Speaker 1: in in a strip mall, in a strip mall, in
Speaker 1: l a off of bar room, no, sitting there with
Speaker 1: my Cranberry Club soda by myself and I the there's
Speaker 1: a velvet curtain at the door, and the and opens,
Speaker 1: and this guy walks past me in his big sort
Speaker 1: of coat with a baseball cap on, and he has
Speaker 1: a slice of pizza on a paper plate in one
Speaker 1: hand and a backpack and he puts it all down
Speaker 1: and he sits down and he orders a mescal, which
Speaker 1: makes me laugh, and I just mess gal is just
Speaker 1: such a specific thing for someone to drink. And I
Speaker 1: looked and I saw his profile and I thought, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, that's Tim Busfield. And we had just become
Speaker 1: friends on Facebook, um, which is sort of random. And
Speaker 1: I've met him a couple of times before, but I
Speaker 1: never really had any long conversations. And you have to know,
Speaker 1: I'm really shy. I don't tend to go up to people,
Speaker 1: even if I've known them for years or worked with
Speaker 1: them years and years ago. I'm always afraid someone's going
Speaker 1: to not know who I am, and just kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, I just don't want to do it. And
Speaker 1: I somehow screwed up the courage to say, hey, Tim,
Speaker 1: and he turned and he looked at me, and I said,
Speaker 1: Melissa Gilbert and he went, oh, and I said, we
Speaker 1: just became friends on Facebook. So we stayed way apart
Speaker 1: from each other in this bar, like five stools apart,
Speaker 1: talking and then he moved one closer, and then I
Speaker 1: moved one closer than that continued till we were side
Speaker 1: by side, and I think, I don't know, we must
Speaker 1: have been talking for hours, because they turned around and
Speaker 1: my friend Danny was there and all of his friends
Speaker 1: had been standing there for at least two hours watching
Speaker 1: this whole thing. And I didn't even know that they
Speaker 1: were there, and it was time to go, and UM,
Speaker 1: and I kept looking at them, going what am I doing?
Speaker 1: I've lost my mind? And they're you know, begging me
Speaker 1: on and Tim decided to leave, and he got up
Speaker 1: to go and had his way out. He grabbed my
Speaker 1: ear lobe and we had exchanged phone numbers. He said,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go, and I looked and I said, yes,
Speaker 1: good idea, quit while you're ahead. And he left. He
Speaker 1: grabbed your earlobe. We're not grabbed, I mean like gently
Speaker 1: grabbed your earlobe. He fondled my earlobe. Sounds so gross.
Speaker 1: He tugged my earlobe. There you go, gently tug Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of like Carol Burnett, Yes, exactly. It was kind
Speaker 1: of just a little like tickle and UM. The next
Speaker 1: morning or late morning, because I went out late dancing
Speaker 1: with my friends. Um, the next morning, I texted him
Speaker 1: do you want to meet for brunch? Right as he
Speaker 1: was texting me saying do you want to meet for brunch?
Speaker 1: So we met for brunch, and I don't think we've
Speaker 1: been apart more than I think the longest we've been
Speaker 1: a part of five days since then, in ten years
Speaker 1: and it sounds like you're really happy. I am. I am.
Speaker 1: It's I had a friend many many years ago, when
Speaker 1: I was going through relationship agony in my twenties, who said,
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's easier relationships out there. And I
Speaker 1: never thought i'd be a person that had an easier relationship.
Speaker 1: And I do. And there's not a day that goes
Speaker 1: by that I'm not grateful that. Um. It's that really
Speaker 1: virtually nothing in my life is a struggle anymore. It's
Speaker 1: very peaceful, it's very calm, it's very soothing, um And
Speaker 1: and most importantly, it's a partnership. We consult each other
Speaker 1: about everything, We share everything, and all major decisions are
Speaker 1: made together with equal um are both opinions are equally
Speaker 1: valued and as important. And that's that's really unusual and
Speaker 1: as such a blessing to have. That's that's good relationship advice.
Speaker 1: I think if the relationship is hard, if it's creating
Speaker 1: what do they call it souris um and a lot
Speaker 1: of unhappiness, you're investing a lot too much time in
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's wrong. I think that's a
Speaker 1: big flashing sign that it's not right. And I think
Speaker 1: some women, especially try to fix things and they try
Speaker 1: to make it better, and sometimes things just aren't fixable.
Speaker 1: And having an ease that a wonderful partnership and friendship
Speaker 1: can have is so important. And um, that's what I
Speaker 1: have with my husband too, And it's just, um, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it just it just lifts. It's something lifts
Speaker 1: from you when you're not in n And I've been
Speaker 1: in relationships that weren't good, that didn't make me feel
Speaker 1: happy or fulfilled or cared about. And people out there
Speaker 1: listening to this should if they feel like they're in
Speaker 1: a relationship like that that doesn't make them feel good
Speaker 1: or you know, knowing that every relationship takes a modicum
Speaker 1: of work and it's not going to be you know,
Speaker 1: rainbows and unicorns and sunshine all the time. But if
Speaker 1: there's some thing that is just nagging at you and
Speaker 1: if it just doesn't feel right, chances are it's not.
Speaker 1: So I'm really happy that you're happy, you know. Tell
Speaker 1: me why you decided to write this book now, because
Speaker 1: I know in the early pages you say some might
Speaker 1: say this is about a midlife crisis. I call it
Speaker 1: a midlife reassessment of priorities and my realization the real
Speaker 1: satisfaction and meaning for me at fifty six years old
Speaker 1: came from canny tomatoes and cleaning the chicken coop rather
Speaker 1: than implants and hair color and other efforts to stop
Speaker 1: time from marching across my face. UM, tell me about
Speaker 1: that realization, Melissa, And when you decided that that wasn't
Speaker 1: filling your soul and this constant kind of hamster wheel
Speaker 1: of trying to stop the aging process or trying to um,
Speaker 1: you know, fight other time was just not for you.
Speaker 1: I don't think I consciously realized that it wasn't for
Speaker 1: a long time, but it felt wrong. I remember being
Speaker 1: in my forties, and it's sort of being a given
Speaker 1: that now is when we start, you know, nipping and tucking,
Speaker 1: and now is and now in my when I was
Speaker 1: in my forties, we didn't have to do that, um
Speaker 1: because we have fillers and we have botox, and and
Speaker 1: I was living in Los Angeles and it was just
Speaker 1: sort of do regor. It's what we do where in
Speaker 1: this profession, we stay as young as we can for
Speaker 1: as long as we can. Some people take it too
Speaker 1: far and they look different from what they ever looked like.
Speaker 1: But they're the really smart ones go to a doctor
Speaker 1: who keeps them looking exactly the same. All well and good,
Speaker 1: and if that's your choice, that's fine, but there was
Speaker 1: something in me that felt that that was wrong. I
Speaker 1: did it, I followed it. I went through surgeries, I had,
Speaker 1: you know, as I talked about implants, I had you know,
Speaker 1: I did botox, I did fillers, and it started to
Speaker 1: get to the point where I was starting to not
Speaker 1: look like myself. And the penultimate for me was when
Speaker 1: I did Dancing with the Stars. I was at my
Speaker 1: most sort of all about what I look like on
Speaker 1: the outside because that show will also it sort of
Speaker 1: feeds that the spray tan and the glitter and the
Speaker 1: thin and the dancing, and you do have to be
Speaker 1: in shape, and you do get in shape the longer
Speaker 1: you're on the show, because you're dancing. I was dancing
Speaker 1: eight hours a day. It's forty eight years old, which
Speaker 1: is I would not normally to know otherwise, and it just,
Speaker 1: you know, when it, when it was all over, I
Speaker 1: was left thinking, who am This is not me? I
Speaker 1: don't care about this stuff. I don't. And also it's exhausting.
Speaker 1: It is so exhausting fighting something that's inevitable and natural
Speaker 1: and organic. To be someone else's idea of who you
Speaker 1: need to be. It just it rankled me, and I
Speaker 1: remember getting mad at myself and thinking, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Stop this? Stop this, And I made a decision at
Speaker 1: that point that that's it. I'm not doing this anymore.
Speaker 1: It's too much work. I just want to be me.
Speaker 1: I want to be comfortable in my own skin. I
Speaker 1: want to be happy with who I am. I don't
Speaker 1: want to keep chasing this ideal that other people have
Speaker 1: placed on me that I believed. I don't really believe
Speaker 1: that this, any of this is true. I think that
Speaker 1: there is value in all of us at whatever age
Speaker 1: we're at, and so, you know, gradually, step by step
Speaker 1: it all started to change. The biggest step was permanently
Speaker 1: removing the breast implants, which just had to happen. I
Speaker 1: honestly gay at one point. You know, they don't tell
Speaker 1: you when you get them in that they they have
Speaker 1: a shelf life. You have to get them replaced at
Speaker 1: least everything in years, which makes me to it. Well,
Speaker 1: and then I'm looking at this and I'm thinking down
Speaker 1: the road, I'm eighty five years old. Am I really
Speaker 1: going to go under anesthesia to get new breast implants
Speaker 1: because these have expired. Who does that? So I just thought, no,
Speaker 1: this is no no no, no, no, no no no.
Speaker 1: It seems it seems so counterintuitive to be forcing yourself
Speaker 1: to have more surgeries later in life. So out they came.
Speaker 1: And as soon as that happened, my whole body went, oh,
Speaker 1: thank you. I just I felt better, I felt more
Speaker 1: like myself. I I just it sort of gave me
Speaker 1: that extra push to go, Okay, that's it. Now, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do anything else in my face. Now
Speaker 1: I'm going to And then I stopped coloring my hair,
Speaker 1: and it just sort of was like a gradual thing.
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad it all happened that way because
Speaker 1: I was, you know, a knitting kind of gray haired ish,
Speaker 1: all most grant or granny when COVID hit and I
Speaker 1: went into lockdown in the cat skills, and if I
Speaker 1: had had to keep maintaining all that stuff, it never
Speaker 1: would have never would have happened. So it was like
Speaker 1: it was almost like I set myself up to be
Speaker 1: ready to have this ultimately simpler, easier life, and and
Speaker 1: it is. I mean, I it's so much easier. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't think about what I look like really that much.
Speaker 1: How can we change the conversation though? You know, I
Speaker 1: think about this and I'm, you know, nine years old
Speaker 1: at your fifty eight, and I'm so I am seven
Speaker 1: years older than you are. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: for people who are in the public eye, it's particularly
Speaker 1: difficult to get older, um, in front of other people.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think about this, and we used
Speaker 1: to cover this when I was at the Today Show
Speaker 1: and I was in my thirties and forties, and it
Speaker 1: just seems like the conversation around aging really never changes
Speaker 1: until people are experiencing getting older. And I just wonder,
Speaker 1: is it possible to change the conversation because you think
Speaker 1: of the word old and it has such a negative
Speaker 1: connotation or older. And I write about this in my book,
Speaker 1: where I might be on an Instagram live or doing
Speaker 1: something and someone will comment, among many other things, wow,
Speaker 1: she looks old, or you know this kind of thing
Speaker 1: where it is it is meant to be insulting, and
Speaker 1: yet it is inevitable, as you said, And I just
Speaker 1: wonder how we can flip a switch somehow or even
Speaker 1: have a gradual, gradually different perception of of what it
Speaker 1: means to get older and to age, and that it's
Speaker 1: not something that we should be full of shame or
Speaker 1: embarrassment or humiliation. But I think that is how the
Speaker 1: culture treats people who have are are over a certain age,
Speaker 1: whether it's forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, whatever it is. And
Speaker 1: I also one of my pet peeves is how people
Speaker 1: infantilize older people Like I used to really hate when
Speaker 1: people would say about my mom or dad when they
Speaker 1: got older, or your parents are so cute, and I
Speaker 1: would be like, honestly, my parents are amazing people. They're
Speaker 1: incredibly smart, They've led these fascinating, interesting lives. They have
Speaker 1: a lot to say. Please don't diminish them. I never
Speaker 1: said this, really, but I thought it. Please don't because
Speaker 1: I don't think people mean it as an insult, but
Speaker 1: please don't diminish them by calling them cute. There's so
Speaker 1: much to unpack in in just what all of what
Speaker 1: you said. Um, it makes me crazy because it's the
Speaker 1: reverse of who we should be. We should be honoring, respecting,
Speaker 1: and going to our elders for advice for leadership. For
Speaker 1: I mean, these are the people who've lived through all
Speaker 1: of this stuff. They know, they know so much more
Speaker 1: than we do at this point. So and and and
Speaker 1: there are so many other cultures that revere people for
Speaker 1: their age, that you gain status by aging, and it's
Speaker 1: so frustrating. And then the other side of this what
Speaker 1: popped up for me when you were talking about this
Speaker 1: is the physical part of it. And the pressure to
Speaker 1: look externally a certain way is something that is It's
Speaker 1: so huge. Tim and I do a lot of road trips.
Speaker 1: We have a tendency if one of us goes on location,
Speaker 1: um to just drive. So we have a car, and
Speaker 1: we rent a house and instead of staying in hotels
Speaker 1: and so we drive cross country a lot. And I'll
Speaker 1: tell you that you see a lot of billboards along
Speaker 1: those drives. And the billboards generally are McDonald's, Taco Bell,
Speaker 1: Mico suction, Um, do you want a facelift? Breast implants
Speaker 1: in and out burger just and I look at the stuff,
Speaker 1: and I think, what are we saying to people? Eat this?
Speaker 1: Do all of this and then fix it at the
Speaker 1: surgeon's office, because you don't want to look like you
Speaker 1: eat that stuff. But please do I and and I
Speaker 1: you know I have four sons, and so I never
Speaker 1: really worried about a lot of that the impact of
Speaker 1: that on the boys as much, because it is more
Speaker 1: impactful for for girls and women. But now I have
Speaker 1: daughters in law, and I have granddaughters, and the idea
Speaker 1: that these in readibly perfect human beings, at some point,
Speaker 1: because of societal pressure, will think that they are not
Speaker 1: perfect makes me crazy. And if if if there were
Speaker 1: a solution, I would get behind that in a second.
Speaker 1: But I think it's so endemic and it's so pervasive
Speaker 1: that it's going to require a huge cultural shift for
Speaker 1: people to allow people to be who they are and
Speaker 1: look the way they look and respect them regardless. So
Speaker 1: I don't know how we get there, but I'm I'm
Speaker 1: on board to make it happen if there's anything I
Speaker 1: can do. I do feel like there have been some
Speaker 1: positive changes in that we look at I think, I
Speaker 1: mean there. It needs to change much more, but there
Speaker 1: are some signs that beauty, the definition of beauty is
Speaker 1: becoming more inclusive. That um, you know, more diverse, more
Speaker 1: diversity in terms of race and ethnicity, more diversity in
Speaker 1: terms of bodies, um a little, write a little, But
Speaker 1: I think the overwhelming messaging that young women still receive
Speaker 1: is this is this is your goal, and your external
Speaker 1: packaging is more important than your internal um, your internal character.
Speaker 1: But I do think there's some steps in that direction. Well,
Speaker 1: other let's let's talk about some of the other things
Speaker 1: that what what were you trying to to convey in
Speaker 1: this book, because there are so many facets of you
Speaker 1: as a person. You're politically active, you ran for office
Speaker 1: when you temporary lived in Michigan. You've got to know
Speaker 1: Governor Whitmer. How big a role does activism continue to
Speaker 1: play in your life, Melissa, I can't imagine my life
Speaker 1: without being an active at all. I mean, I I've
Speaker 1: my mother UM raised us with a real sense of
Speaker 1: civic responsibility, and my father too, but my mother really
Speaker 1: was the primary because my father died when I was
Speaker 1: so young. My mother was sort of my mother was
Speaker 1: the center of all of our universes. But she raised
Speaker 1: certainly my sister and I to be very socially conscious
Speaker 1: and aware of injustice. And you know, I remember I
Speaker 1: remember being a teeny, tiny, tiny, maybe five six year
Speaker 1: old girl and having parties every year for UM, the
Speaker 1: local head Start program at our house, and being around
Speaker 1: those kids, and I didn't know what it meant. I
Speaker 1: don't know what head start was four. I just knew
Speaker 1: that all these families and kids would come over at
Speaker 1: Christmas time in Santa Claus would come and I'd get
Speaker 1: to play with everybody. But that's the kind of stuff
Speaker 1: that I learned by us. Most is that this is
Speaker 1: what we do. We give back, we support, we speak out,
Speaker 1: we um We try to become passionate and loving and understanding,
Speaker 1: and when someone is being hurt, we speak out on
Speaker 1: their behalf. And so I've always been that way, and
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine a time when I won't be that way.
Speaker 1: I have reached a point, though, at this age, where
Speaker 1: I feel that my my activism and advocacy is much
Speaker 1: better boots on the ground than in office or setting
Speaker 1: and creating policy. UM. I don't really feel like the
Speaker 1: government works in its current form. I have some real problems.
Speaker 1: My biggest problem is the money in politics. I think
Speaker 1: it is the great corruptor of the political process. It
Speaker 1: takes it out of the hands of of being for
Speaker 1: the people by the people and turns it into being
Speaker 1: for the few by a very few. UM. So that
Speaker 1: will I will always rail against that. But for me,
Speaker 1: in a smaller sense, the little things I can do
Speaker 1: to help people to make sure that they have healthcare
Speaker 1: or access to education, or the freedoms that they deserve,
Speaker 1: or even something as small but as large as making
Speaker 1: sure that there's a pediatric hospice center in every city
Speaker 1: is a big deal to me. And that's something I
Speaker 1: can actually affect. Um, So that's the kind of stuff
Speaker 1: that I will continue to get involved in. Your mom
Speaker 1: kept it from you that your dad uh that a
Speaker 1: stroke and and poor quality care at at a v
Speaker 1: A hospital ultimately drove him to take his own life.
Speaker 1: And yet you didn't discover that until you were forty
Speaker 1: five years old. Um, how did that impact your views
Speaker 1: towards the system in general and how it can be changed?
Speaker 1: Because I know that's an issue that helped you connect
Speaker 1: with Michigan voters when you ran for office. How how
Speaker 1: has that changed your thinking about healthcare and about mental
Speaker 1: health care? Yeah? It really it was. It was incredibly
Speaker 1: impactful for me because, Um, when I found out about
Speaker 1: my father's suicide, I still couldn't get the answers I needed.
Speaker 1: So I went and hired someone to pull records for
Speaker 1: me from from the corner and the l A p D.
Speaker 1: But no photographs, obviously, because I wanted to know the circumstances.
Speaker 1: And as he said, I found out that he had
Speaker 1: been in uncontrolled chronic pain and had been threatening suicide
Speaker 1: and begging for help, and was under the care of
Speaker 1: the VIA in Los Angeles, and nobody did anything. And
Speaker 1: I know that when he died that he only had
Speaker 1: tile and all in his system and a little bit
Speaker 1: of dai Lantin for seizures, but nothing for pain, nothing
Speaker 1: for muscle spasms, nothing, I mean nothing. And this is
Speaker 1: a man who served in World War Two, who was
Speaker 1: with the USO and Vietnam, went every right to the
Speaker 1: best possible care as a veteran who defended the United States,
Speaker 1: and wasn't getting it. And I realized, you know, for many, many,
Speaker 1: many years, especially since Vietnam, we hear about the veterans
Speaker 1: who came home who didn't get the right kind of care,
Speaker 1: and and to hear about the tragedies at VA hospitals,
Speaker 1: and certainly what happened during COVID in the in the
Speaker 1: world of the v a UM and how horrible it is.
Speaker 1: But it did not really have a lot of wait
Speaker 1: for me until I realized my father is that statistic,
Speaker 1: and it made me want to fix it. And that's
Speaker 1: part of that's part of the reason why I ran
Speaker 1: for office too, was the opportunity to do something on
Speaker 1: that large scale, and it enabled me to UM also
Speaker 1: to gain something really valuable in in knowing, not only
Speaker 1: am I not alone in being the survivor of a
Speaker 1: parent who has died by suicide, so I can talk
Speaker 1: to other people, but I'm also not alone in being
Speaker 1: the daughter of a veteran who died by suicide UM.
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's really important for people like
Speaker 1: me and everyone around us UM to continue to talk
Speaker 1: about these things because the more we bring them out
Speaker 1: in the open, the more they can be dealt with,
Speaker 1: and the less stigma there is, the less fear there is.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's nothing I've noticed UM over the
Speaker 1: course of my life. There's there's nothing more powerful than
Speaker 1: finding a community and knowing you're not alone in any experience,
Speaker 1: and we never are the only ones to suffer anything
Speaker 1: or walk through anything. There's always someone who's been there,
Speaker 1: and if we can connect on that level, it makes
Speaker 1: it so much easier to deal with and maybe enables
Speaker 1: us to prevent it from happening to the next person.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, you know. I think that right
Speaker 1: now people are in sort of I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of despair in the country right now. I think
Speaker 1: people see things like global warming, and they see things
Speaker 1: like the war in Ukraine and the senseless brutal murders
Speaker 1: that are going on there on a daily basis, to
Speaker 1: the point where I think sometimes people can't watch it
Speaker 1: anymore and don't have the bandwidth to even kind of
Speaker 1: absorb it. Now, reproductive rights are being threatened in this country,
Speaker 1: and I think that that people are feeling lost. And
Speaker 1: while you say a community is really important, it's something
Speaker 1: that we try to foster at the company that my
Speaker 1: husband and I have created, trying to have a community
Speaker 1: of people who care about issues and want to be
Speaker 1: informed and better understand them. I think there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who are just feeling this sense of hopelessness.
Speaker 1: And I just wonder, from your life experiences and as
Speaker 1: you've kind of are embarking on continue to embark on
Speaker 1: a new chapter almost constantly, what do you think people
Speaker 1: can do to feel more connected and more hopeful and
Speaker 1: more engaged and have a voice in the world we're
Speaker 1: living in. That's that's that's very um, that's very difficult. UM,
Speaker 1: it's a very difficult question to answer because we're coming
Speaker 1: out of this very unprecedented time. Um where Initially, and
Speaker 1: this is my opinion, but initially, you know, had the
Speaker 1: politics of of two thousand sixteen and before that and
Speaker 1: that election that sort of pushed people into their political
Speaker 1: silos a bit and enabled also a lot of people
Speaker 1: to say things they normally wouldn't have. And then we
Speaker 1: have social media and the Internet, which is a fantastic
Speaker 1: tool to have, but it also has enabled us to
Speaker 1: say terrible things too, and about one another without repercussions.
Speaker 1: It's much easier to say a horrible thing about someone
Speaker 1: from your living room on the computer than it is
Speaker 1: when you're standing right next to them. So we really
Speaker 1: started to silo then, and then we had to lock down,
Speaker 1: and we siloed even more. And I know everybody talked
Speaker 1: about how lonely they were and how upset they were,
Speaker 1: and I and I understand, I understand that. But now
Speaker 1: is the lockdowns have lifted and we're starting to integrate more.
Speaker 1: I think it would be great if opinion leaders and
Speaker 1: the leadership of the country and the world. UM. And
Speaker 1: if people with degrees that make them much better at
Speaker 1: this than me would tell us and remind us how
Speaker 1: to be human again towards one another and how to
Speaker 1: to approach each other in a loving, compassionate way. UM.
Speaker 1: I actually said to someone recently, you know, when they
Speaker 1: started lifting mask mandates. UM, I will stop squinting and
Speaker 1: making faces at people who don't wear masks if people
Speaker 1: will not squint and make faces at me if I
Speaker 1: choose to wear a mask, So that's a truce. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm looking for a truth. And I think that's just
Speaker 1: like a tiny little example of the things we need
Speaker 1: to stop doing, all of us, full stop. UM. And
Speaker 1: I would love to see greater access to UM mental
Speaker 1: mental health care and mental health professionals. I think we
Speaker 1: could all do with someone to talk to it this
Speaker 1: and about how to get back into being a loving, compassionate, kind,
Speaker 1: generous human being again, because you know, it was all
Speaker 1: about survival for a long time, and now it's about
Speaker 1: coming back together. And I think we need we need
Speaker 1: leadership to find our way to do that, and we're
Speaker 1: definitely not getting it from our leaders at all. Really,
Speaker 1: it's still so siloed and and so bitter and and
Speaker 1: and um loud, it's just loud. I can't even watch
Speaker 1: the news anymore. I have to read it. I think,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it's almost Pavlovian to be angry and
Speaker 1: to channel that anger into a lack of respect for
Speaker 1: someone with whom we disagree, and um, it is sort
Speaker 1: of our default setting now. And you're right, somehow we
Speaker 1: have to get back into and I think it's I
Speaker 1: think that is um nurtured and encouraged by both political
Speaker 1: leaders in some cases the media, and I just hope
Speaker 1: there is a way we can. You know, we're compromised,
Speaker 1: or appreciation for a different point of view or coming
Speaker 1: up with some kind of common goals isn't seen as
Speaker 1: capitulation or isn't seen as a concept that is just
Speaker 1: anathema two our current culture. If that makes sense, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it does make sense, and it will be the undoing
Speaker 1: of our species if we don't find a way. Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's leave things on a bright note. Shall we
Speaker 1: all learn no money? Something happy? Please? Katie? Well, I
Speaker 1: do have a lot of faith in young people. And
Speaker 1: now you're a grandmother and you're seeing you know, this
Speaker 1: new generation of young people who I think here matt
Speaker 1: as hell a little little disappointed to say the least,
Speaker 1: and what their quote unquote elders have done to address
Speaker 1: some of these burning issues. But they are really um
Speaker 1: trying to change change the country, in the world for
Speaker 1: the better. So I do find that to be uh
Speaker 1: inspiring and comforting, I guess in a way. Have you
Speaker 1: seen that in your own experience? Yes, yes, And that
Speaker 1: is absolutely a source of hope. I see it with
Speaker 1: my kids, and I especially I see it with potentially
Speaker 1: with my grandchildren. We are Our oldest grandchild is seven
Speaker 1: now and she um participated in a climate change march
Speaker 1: not too long ago and made her own sign that
Speaker 1: said I stand with Greta, and she knows who she is,
Speaker 1: and she knows who at A is and what she
Speaker 1: stands for, and she has so much UM respect for
Speaker 1: her and this is who she looks up to at
Speaker 1: the age of seven. So I can't help but be
Speaker 1: hopeful when I see that, UM, and I I am.
Speaker 1: I am completely and hopeful that she's not the only one,
Speaker 1: and that these next generations are going to do what's
Speaker 1: right and and try and fix what we unfortunately are
Speaker 1: are leaving them, which is better than what we were given.
Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways, um, and in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways not so much so. UM. I
Speaker 1: am hopeful and I'm just, you know, trying to live
Speaker 1: my peaceful little existence up in the Catskills more than
Speaker 1: anywhere else, with my chickens and my garden and my
Speaker 1: husband and my dog and my knitting. And I come
Speaker 1: down and speak my piece when I asked you, and
Speaker 1: then I go back home and sit in my recliner
Speaker 1: and knit. That's that's my life right now. But it
Speaker 1: sounds like it's working for you. It's heaven. It's absolutely heavenly.
Speaker 1: I I I, I don't know that I've ever know
Speaker 1: I've I've never been happier or more content in my life,
Speaker 1: which is interesting with all the things going on in
Speaker 1: the world, and it's sad and heartbroken as I can be.
Speaker 1: When I when I watched the footage coming in from
Speaker 1: Ukraine and I read the stories of people who are
Speaker 1: suffering all over the world, and people who don't have
Speaker 1: access to healthcare and don't have access to uh, the
Speaker 1: right kind of education, and it does those are the
Speaker 1: things that break my heart. But the balance for me
Speaker 1: is that I can go back to my retreat up
Speaker 1: in the mountains and I can gather eggs for my
Speaker 1: chickens and donate them to the local food bank and
Speaker 1: at least do something in a small way to help
Speaker 1: my community. I think that's really the key is trying
Speaker 1: to make if you feel frustrated, try to make your
Speaker 1: world better. And that means your community. And I think
Speaker 1: if people focus on doing more at us at a
Speaker 1: at a more local level. Um, that's that's if if
Speaker 1: everyone did that, then it would have that that would
Speaker 1: echo across the land and and maybe and keep people
Speaker 1: from getting too overwhelmed. Right, Yes, it all you know
Speaker 1: they say charity starts at home. It all starts at home.
Speaker 1: So you start in the smallest circle possible. You don't
Speaker 1: We don't all have to run for Congress or the Senate. Um,
Speaker 1: we don't even have to run for office. Just do
Speaker 1: something for someone on your block, by their groceries, bake
Speaker 1: him up high, sit and listen, take them to a
Speaker 1: doctor's appointment, run their errands. It's so bowl, it really is,
Speaker 1: and it means the world, and we'll change your life. Well,
Speaker 1: that's a good note to end on. Melissa, it's so
Speaker 1: good to see you and your new book is called
Speaker 1: Back to the Prairie. Thank you for spending some time
Speaker 1: talking with us about that. There's so much more in
Speaker 1: the book obviously than the things we touched upon, but
Speaker 1: it's just nice to have a conversation with you. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, someone that we've known for so long and
Speaker 1: we've watched grow and change and uh, you know, ultimately
Speaker 1: become the person you were destined to be. So thank you, Melissa.
Speaker 1: Thanks Katie, that's very very sweet and it's always a
Speaker 1: joy to talk to you. A big thank you to
Speaker 1: my guest Melissa Gilbert. Her book was Katie with you
Speaker 1: and Courtney as long as you supervising so is Lauren Hansen.
Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. The show is
Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about
Speaker 1: today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter,
Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to Katie correct dot com. You
Speaker 1: can also find me at Katie Currect on Instagram and
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