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Speaker 2: Welcome to lots more where we catch up with friends
Speaker 2: about what's going.
Speaker 3: On right now, because even when odd Lots is over,
Speaker 3: there's always lots more.
Speaker 2: And we really do have the perfect guest.
Speaker 3: One thing we have learned in all our episodes looking
Speaker 3: at the Iranian stock market, and there have been a couple, yes,
Speaker 3: but one thing we've learned is that Iran is actually
Speaker 3: the thirty seventh biggest economy in the world by nominal GDP.
Speaker 3: Can you guess like another economy that is roughly that size?
Speaker 2: Oh that's a really So what is roughly similar to
Speaker 2: the Iranian I don't know, go on.
Speaker 3: Okay, well one of them is Denmark, so you know
Speaker 3: that's pretty big. But then when you start looking at
Speaker 3: things like geographical size, Iran is I think the seventeenth
Speaker 3: biggest country in the world by geographical size. It has
Speaker 3: a lot of people as well, so you know, similar
Speaker 3: to Turkey in terms of post I know you.
Speaker 2: Know, I know the population now, Oh well yeah, because
Speaker 2: Ted Cruz got stumped on it when he went on
Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson Show. So we all know that Iran has
Speaker 2: a population of around ninety million. No one, no one, yeah,
Speaker 2: he should have. No one is ever going to make
Speaker 2: that mistake again.
Speaker 3: That's right. That should have been my first question.
Speaker 2: Can I say something when there's geopolitical events happening in
Speaker 2: the world on a weekend when nothing is treating so
Speaker 2: one that you can look at what crypto is doing.
Speaker 2: But every once in a while, when I'm in true
Speaker 2: market siico mood, like I'll actually check, like, oh, what
Speaker 2: is the Saudi market doing on a Saturday, or what
Speaker 2: is the tel Aviv market doing on a Sunday?
Speaker 3: There are siico mode that's just being international.
Speaker 2: Well, we're supposed to have the weekends to not be
Speaker 2: looking up, but most of the time they're not. Every
Speaker 2: point is everyone's in a while, like I'm gonna check
Speaker 2: in and see how tel Aviv is trading on a
Speaker 2: Sunday or something like that. That's how that's how you
Speaker 2: know something is happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But the one market that you can't really look up,
Speaker 3: that's right is Iran stock market and the Tran Stock
Speaker 3: Exchange specifically, which again, as we know from previous episodes,
Speaker 3: has more than six hundred companies and is worth I
Speaker 3: think it was almost one hundred billion dollars. I don't
Speaker 3: know if it's still that much, but I'm always brilliant.
Speaker 4: Around one hundred and fifty billion dollars one.
Speaker 3: Hundred and fifty Oh wow. Okay, we're speaking with Matya Voutal.
Speaker 3: He is CEO and CIO of Antlon Capital, which is
Speaker 3: an Amsterdam based fund manager which specializes in Iranian stocks.
Speaker 3: He's been on the show a couple of times before,
Speaker 3: and we thought we would talk to him again just
Speaker 3: to try to get a sense of what's going on
Speaker 3: in terms of Iran's economy and it's stock market.
Speaker 1: What is going on if I can just comment on
Speaker 1: one thing, because the way you introduced your own is
Speaker 1: the perfect way to show the country. It's the size
Speaker 1: of Turkey in terms of population and actually geographical size
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 4: But if you.
Speaker 1: Compare the economy of an Iran, it's around five times smaller.
Speaker 4: So Iran is around five times smaller.
Speaker 1: And if you look at the composition of the economy,
Speaker 1: Turkey has no natural resources, so they have to import
Speaker 1: the whole energy commodities they consume and so on. Iran
Speaker 1: has the similar size of potential non commodity GDP that
Speaker 1: it could grow to. So from the current let's say
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty billion to one point one trillion
Speaker 1: GDP that Turkey has, but also on top of this
Speaker 1: has resources that are actually if you combine gas and oil,
Speaker 1: they are bigger than Saudi Arabia's and Saudi Arabia is
Speaker 1: another one point, I think three trillion dollar economy. So
Speaker 1: this is a good way to just frame Iran as
Speaker 1: to show Iran, as you know, it's a big country
Speaker 1: that should really be having much bigger economy. Because of sanctions,
Speaker 1: various reasons and so on, it's been underdeveloped.
Speaker 4: But the scale of this underdevelopment is like ten x wow.
Speaker 3: And because of the sanctions, we can't actually go and
Speaker 3: look up what's happening in Tehran's stock market, So why
Speaker 3: don't you give us an overview of what it's been
Speaker 3: like for the past week given geopolitical events.
Speaker 1: So for the past week, it was difficult for everyone
Speaker 1: to check what was going on in Iran because internet
Speaker 1: was shut down basically, so I could communicate with my
Speaker 1: team on the ground in Tehran once a day when
Speaker 1: they had signal, and sometimes it was what's up that
Speaker 1: was working, sometimes telegram, but it was maybe once or
Speaker 1: twice per day. So what was going on in the
Speaker 1: market was simply nothing. So the stock market hasn't opened.
Speaker 1: The shange of fire between Iran and Israel happened on
Speaker 1: a Friday, which is weekend in Iran, and then on
Speaker 1: the following Saturday there was an important religious holiday, so
Speaker 1: the market and actually the whole economy was supposed to
Speaker 1: be closed anyway, the economic activity the market was supposed
Speaker 1: to resume on a Sunday, but they didn't open, so
Speaker 1: the market, the stock market, pretty much most of the
Speaker 1: currency market has been closed for the last two weeks.
Speaker 2: Assuming out for a second. Actually, there are two early
Speaker 2: things that strike me. One, this is true frontier market
Speaker 2: investing when you're in a position in which you literally
Speaker 2: cannot easily communicate with your team on the ground because
Speaker 2: there are a lack of internet or lack of communications.
Speaker 2: But it strikes me that in some sense this is
Speaker 2: what the fund manager gets paid for, because for many reasons,
Speaker 2: including the fact that it's not trivial to look up
Speaker 2: data or even access to these markets, a lot of
Speaker 2: investors are never going to be participating in this market.
Speaker 2: And then you layer in on all these additional complications
Speaker 2: like this is essentially, at least in theory, the deep
Speaker 2: risks that in theory you get compensated.
Speaker 1: For Yeah, you get compensated for actually giving access to
Speaker 1: the market because it's very difficult or impossible to get
Speaker 1: access at this moment as a non resident team run
Speaker 1: to the local stock market. But also you get paid
Speaker 1: for solving all the operational programs. You know, we have
Speaker 1: quite a long track record in Iran and the main
Speaker 1: thing actually that we are really proud of because investing
Speaker 1: when everything is priced for war is fairly easy, right,
Speaker 1: And also you have a market that is very inefficient
Speaker 1: because it's driven by retail investors, Like ninety percent of
Speaker 1: daily flows are coming from retail. So there is a
Speaker 1: lot of alpha, a lot of inefficiencies that you can harvest.
Speaker 1: But the real issue is our operations. One thing is
Speaker 1: due diligence. I mean, you know a lot of sanctioned
Speaker 1: restrictions which are not on the whole country, but we're
Speaker 1: related to many different entities, sectors.
Speaker 4: And so on.
Speaker 1: So you have to do due diligence on every single
Speaker 1: decision you're taking, before every decision you're taking. But also
Speaker 1: you need to solve the problems. For example, the problem
Speaker 1: of changing currency making transfers. Iranian banks are not connected
Speaker 1: to the Swift system there are specialized banks that actually
Speaker 1: do for example, payment for humanitarian trade with Venezuela right
Speaker 1: or Iran, so food medical devices.
Speaker 4: This is never under sanctions and you need to be
Speaker 4: able to pay for it.
Speaker 1: But those transfers take like nine months to execute, right.
Speaker 1: I remember we once had to process a payment for
Speaker 1: it like a very very official way. We had to
Speaker 1: have the signature of the actual minister in Iran approving
Speaker 1: the payment, right, So it took.
Speaker 4: Nine months al together. But there are other ways.
Speaker 1: There are other corridors, payment corridors that across emerging markets
Speaker 1: and including Iran, that make it much more efficient. So
Speaker 1: for example, right now, when you have the stock market,
Speaker 1: the currency market were shut down, but you could track
Speaker 1: the exchange rate, what's going on with the exchange rate
Speaker 1: of the Iranian real versus dollar, either on telegram chats
Speaker 1: but also oncurrency exchanges, so you have you know, liquid
Speaker 1: market on stable coins versus Iranian real inside of Iran,
Speaker 1: where well liquidity was limited during the last period anyway,
Speaker 1: but we could see the changes, so we knew that
Speaker 1: one dollar before the war was at around eight hundred
Speaker 1: thirty thousand reals per one dollar. Then it went up
Speaker 1: roughly fifteen percent to nine hundred fifty thousand, and now
Speaker 1: after the ceasefire it's back down at eight hundred fifty thousand.
Speaker 1: So you can track the market, you can actually make
Speaker 1: transactions depending on on the liquidity.
Speaker 4: But it is possible.
Speaker 1: And to be honest, I mean when I saw those
Speaker 1: exchange rates moves fifteen percent, when you have a war
Speaker 1: where a lot of commentators were saying that this could
Speaker 1: turn into a massive worldwide conflict, that fifteen percent in
Speaker 1: a country like you run, I would say that this is.
Speaker 4: Your usual volatility on the currency market.
Speaker 3: Wait, so when you're talking to your team on the ground,
Speaker 3: when you can get hold of them, what are the
Speaker 3: questions you're asking them exactly? Because the markets are closed,
Speaker 3: so presumably you're not marking your portfolio to market on
Speaker 3: a daily basis, But what information are you trying to get?
Speaker 1: Well, the first few days, the only information I was
Speaker 1: interested in was if they were safe, to be honest,
Speaker 1: because you know, the the what residents of Tehran and
Speaker 1: some other cities experience was they've never experienced just explosions
Speaker 1: in the city.
Speaker 4: It's like the older Iranians compared it to the eighties
Speaker 4: when Iran was fighting Saddam Hussein in Iraq. And this
Speaker 4: is when you know.
Speaker 1: The last last time, when when someone was firing missiles
Speaker 1: at Iranian cities.
Speaker 4: So after a.
Speaker 1: Few explosions that were too close to home, they basically evacuated.
Speaker 1: They moved to smaller cities. And this was a big
Speaker 1: trend in Iran. So in Tehran, a lot of residents
Speaker 1: were just relocating out of Tehran. Tehran is a big city,
Speaker 1: it's like twelve million people and they were moving mainly
Speaker 1: north to some smaller cities by the cast and sea.
Speaker 4: So you had massive congestion.
Speaker 1: People were spending hours in traffic jams trying to get
Speaker 1: out of the Tehran. There was not enough petrol on
Speaker 1: gas stations just because of this peak in demand. You
Speaker 1: had some petrol rationing and then I was as them, okay,
Speaker 1: so is the economy working?
Speaker 4: Not working? So everything that was non essential basically was closed.
Speaker 1: So you couldn't I don't know built by building materials
Speaker 1: or if you make this, but groceries, pharmaceuticals, gas stations, banks,
Speaker 1: This was all open and working properly with some disruptions.
Speaker 1: But those disruptions, for example, if you wanted to buy
Speaker 1: groceries in north of Iran where everyone has just relocated.
Speaker 1: You had some bottlenecks, logistical bottlenecks, so distribution was not
Speaker 1: fast enough. So you had some shortages just for a
Speaker 1: little while with banks when some branches were not operating
Speaker 1: a one hundred percent capacity. But two banks got hacked, so
Speaker 1: you had some cyber attacks on two banks that you ran,
Speaker 1: and one cryptocurrency exchange. The rest of the banking sector
Speaker 1: was working without any disruptions.
Speaker 4: You could get cash.
Speaker 1: From many atm so there was there were no problems
Speaker 1: like this. So these are the questions about everyday life.
Speaker 1: And then, very importantly, had any listed companies reported any damages?
Speaker 1: Right that? Has there been any destruction to civilian infrastructure
Speaker 1: important for the riding economy.
Speaker 2: It's pretty crazy how hard it is apparently to get data.
Speaker 2: I'm actually at the tront stock Exchange Wikipedia page, and
Speaker 2: whoever maintains that page hasn't updated the number of listed
Speaker 2: companies as two thousand and nine, and there's a stock
Speaker 2: market chart here that goes to twenty fourteen, setting aside
Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks. How have Iranian stocks been
Speaker 2: doing the last year or a couple of years.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So Iranian stocks.
Speaker 1: You have to observe it in US dollars or in
Speaker 1: any hard currency, right because in local currency obviously doesn't
Speaker 1: tell you anything. If you looked at the stock market
Speaker 1: in Zimbabwe when Zimbabwe was going bus the stock market
Speaker 1: was performing amazingly in nominal terms in local currency terms,
Speaker 1: but obviously in dollars it was going to zero. And
Speaker 1: it's interesting because, Okay, there is information, very up to date,
Speaker 1: detailed information on Iranian stocks available in Iran, but the
Speaker 1: majority of this information is not accessible if you're trying
Speaker 1: to access it from a computer with your IP address
Speaker 1: outside of your so a lot of this information is
Speaker 1: restricted to Iran IP only, but you cannot find anywhere
Speaker 1: on the whole Internet.
Speaker 4: Right, there is no website that.
Speaker 1: Shows the stock market index in dollars. So when we
Speaker 1: send it out to our investors.
Speaker 4: Or just people who.
Speaker 1: Want to read news about the stock market in Iran,
Speaker 1: we are the only source of this information.
Speaker 4: This is quite amazing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a country of nineteen million people and
Speaker 1: you know stock market with seven hundred companies, and there
Speaker 1: is no single place in Internet that would show you
Speaker 1: the only important index.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's really stunning. Okay, So when I think
Speaker 3: of the Iranian stock market, I think of two things.
Speaker 3: I think oil and then I think geopolitical risk. How
Speaker 3: does the market typically handle or what do those exposures
Speaker 3: actually look like and do when there's a big event
Speaker 3: such as what we saw in the past week.
Speaker 1: So in terms of oil, oil is not really publicly traded.
Speaker 1: There is one Iranian monopoly called National Iranian Oil Corporation
Speaker 1: or company that is responsible for production.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this is all centralized in one company,
Speaker 4: and this is held by the government, so it's not
Speaker 4: publicly listed.
Speaker 1: You have some exposure to oil through oil refineries that
Speaker 1: are listed, but refineries don't trade. They're not sensitive to
Speaker 1: the price of oil. They are sensitive to the to
Speaker 1: the crack spread, right, which which defines their margin on
Speaker 1: the refining margin, so they are not really per proxy
Speaker 1: to oil prices. The whole stock market actually is will diversify,
Speaker 1: so you have you know, large sectors such as chemicals.
Speaker 1: Mainly these are like petrochemicals, I don't know companies that
Speaker 1: produce different products different versions. Use natural gas that is
Speaker 1: in large supply as a cheap commodity and produce fertilizers
Speaker 1: or products like this right, so this is probably twenty
Speaker 1: percent of the stock market. Then you have steel companies.
Speaker 1: The largest steel company in the Middle East is in Iran.
Speaker 1: You have car makers that produce around one million cars,
Speaker 1: more than one million cars a year. So with car
Speaker 1: manufacturers you have all the related industries suppliers you know,
Speaker 1: to the car manufacturing businesses. You have banks, financials as
Speaker 1: an important sector, plus some consumer exposures, some building materials,
Speaker 1: some man companies are one of the best performance performance
Speaker 1: over the last few years. Actually, yeah, so it's a
Speaker 1: well diversified stock market like you ran an economy.
Speaker 2: Well, sorry, just to follow up on the question before.
Speaker 2: In usd terms, generally, how has the Tehran stock market
Speaker 2: been performing? Setting aside the fact.
Speaker 1: That sorry I didn't ask the question. Yes, so over
Speaker 1: the last I don't know, eight years, I think. So,
Speaker 1: let's say since the US and you ran signed the
Speaker 1: nuclear deal back in twenty sixteen, so almost a decade ago,
Speaker 1: it should be roughly double that level.
Speaker 4: Right now, So we doubled since then.
Speaker 1: But in the meantime there's been quite a lot of
Speaker 1: roller coster So right in stocks in dollar terms are
Speaker 1: three times lower right now, around three times lower compared
Speaker 1: to the level back in twenty twenty. So if you
Speaker 1: compare to August twenty twenty when there was a peak
Speaker 1: of a local let's say, bull market and a bubble,
Speaker 1: right now stocks are around three times lower than that
Speaker 1: in dollar terms, and that's the main reason for that.
Speaker 4: Over the last two years has been the sentiment.
Speaker 1: Because twenty twenty three started to really well for the region.
Speaker 1: There was this historical breakthrough agreement between Saudi Arabia and Iraq.
Speaker 1: Both countries decided that they don't want conflict. They it
Speaker 1: was basically like a peace treaty. They opened up embassies
Speaker 1: in both countries and that was huge because Saudi finance
Speaker 1: minister was talking about investment opportunities in Iran.
Speaker 4: Iran and exporters were.
Speaker 1: Hoping for new export markets to open up in the
Speaker 1: region from Egypt to Saudi Arabia to whatever, all the
Speaker 1: countries around.
Speaker 4: So there was like a very positive moment.
Speaker 1: At the same time, by the administration was negotiating with
Speaker 1: the former Iranian government, so everything looked really really promising.
Speaker 4: Instead, obviously what happened in.
Speaker 1: October was Hamas was Gaza, and that changed everything, like
Speaker 1: sentiment collapse and no one really wanted to look at
Speaker 1: any risky assets in Iran. So you had a situation
Speaker 1: where profits were going up. When you're looking at Iranians
Speaker 1: enlisted companies, profits continue to grow, but the stock market
Speaker 1: was going down. So obviously evaluations are just cheaper and
Speaker 1: cheaper and cheaper. But everyone was focused basically on the
Speaker 1: potential for the regional escalation rightfully so, and.
Speaker 4: Not on you know, taking risk in their portfolios.
Speaker 2: So just a big picture from your perspective, because thinking
Speaker 2: back to your first answer where you talked about, Okay,
Speaker 2: here's in theory what some comps could be and it
Speaker 2: could look like Turkey, or it has resources potentially unscale
Speaker 2: with Saudi Arabia. How much of the bet so to
Speaker 2: speak from your perspective is what people would say, like
Speaker 2: the option value from something happening, either it's a major
Speaker 2: softening between Iran and the West, perhaps regime change, something
Speaker 2: that triggers the big unlock, Like how much in your
Speaker 2: mind is it about it? At some point something will reset
Speaker 2: and some end that massive opportunity could actually be tapped.
Speaker 4: So you're asking about the potential of this opportunity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like basically like they didn't like basically Okay, it's
Speaker 2: going to move around. There's sentiment here and there, but
Speaker 2: that at some point down the future that actual opportunity
Speaker 2: to be an economy and be a market on the
Speaker 2: scale of a Turkey could one day actually realize through
Speaker 2: some some switch that gets flipped.
Speaker 1: Look, this is probably, I mean, from my perspective, the
Speaker 1: biggest optionality in enlisted markets, in public markets that you
Speaker 1: can find.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because one thing is GDP and GDP the.
Speaker 1: Way I look at GDP currently, I mean if you
Speaker 1: google it, it say it's around four hundred billion dollars,
Speaker 1: we think it's more like two hundred and fifty billion dollars.
Speaker 1: It depends on the exchange rate that you used to
Speaker 1: calculate it. So let's say Iran is two hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty billion dollars GDP, and now Iranian non oil economy,
Speaker 1: non commodity economy, if everything goes well, could be as
Speaker 1: big as Turkey, and Turkey is one point one trillion,
Speaker 1: and this is without any commodity.
Speaker 2: But do it need to be do it need to
Speaker 2: be an event like something would need happen?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: Is right? Catalyst? Yeah? Absolutely, yeah, the catalyst is clear. Right, Okay,
Speaker 4: I'll get back to the potential for GDP in a moment.
Speaker 4: But the catalyst is absolutely clear.
Speaker 1: It must be the opening up of Iran as a
Speaker 1: country and opening up of the economy and sanctions lifted,
Speaker 1: the US sanctions lifted, right, so there must be an
Speaker 1: agreement between the US and Iran.
Speaker 4: And what needs to happen well some sort.
Speaker 1: Of political change, so political attitude must change on both sides.
Speaker 1: But to be honest, many analysts were expecting some big
Speaker 1: dramatic event that needs to happen in Iran for the
Speaker 1: country to properly open up. And when you look at
Speaker 1: Iran right now and you compare to let's say even
Speaker 1: a few years ago, when you had negotiations with the US,
Speaker 1: what were the biggest problem was?
Speaker 4: It was always about two things. Iran and reaching uranium
Speaker 4: too much basically at the wrong level.
Speaker 1: And the second Iranian region policies right, so financing proxies
Speaker 1: from Hesbolau to Hamas you know those assad in Syria
Speaker 1: and so on, right, So these two things were always
Speaker 1: the problem that they couldn't negotiate over. When you look
Speaker 1: at it right now, well, to an art extent, both
Speaker 1: obstacles are gone. So potentially this opens up a path
Speaker 1: to an agreement, an agreement like a proper agreement, so
Speaker 1: not the type of nuclear agreement that was signed under
Speaker 1: Obama administration, which was never strong enough. And I think
Speaker 1: both Americans and Iranians understand this. I mean, proper agreement
Speaker 1: that lists sanctions US sanctions two and opens up the
Speaker 1: country to everyone, to including like US investors if.
Speaker 4: They want to tap into the opportunity.
Speaker 1: And I think, I mean, it seems that this is
Speaker 1: the thinking in the US that if we do it,
Speaker 1: we do it properly. And I think, I mean not that,
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, what's what we've been hearing from
Speaker 1: on the Iranian side, Like a few weeks ago when
Speaker 1: they were still negotiating, it was the same thing that
Speaker 1: they were showing Iran the whole economy as a big opportunity,
Speaker 1: like a trillion dollar opportunity, right or two trillion dollar opportunity.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a massive opportunity for all the investors.
Speaker 1: So this is the trigger, this is the catalyst then
Speaker 1: will unlock this optionality, this potential of you run growing
Speaker 1: GDP from the current two hundred and fifty billion two
Speaker 1: in some perfect scenario to two point three trillion dollars,
Speaker 1: which would be a combination of Saudi and Turkey CDP
Speaker 1: obviously if everything went well well.
Speaker 3: But the other thing that's been happening over the past
Speaker 3: week is we've had reports of an internal crackdown in
Speaker 3: Iran and people getting arrested and things like that. And
Speaker 3: when I think internal crackdown, I think hardening of capital controls,
Speaker 3: which Iran already has. What are you hearing on that
Speaker 3: side of things, because presumably that would make your life,
Speaker 3: your job even harder.
Speaker 1: Look, capital controls have been in place for Iranian entities
Speaker 1: for some time. When it comes to foreign investors, it's
Speaker 1: obviously difficult to access, but everyone who is there and
Speaker 1: you have some really really large one of the largest
Speaker 1: Swiss companies, German companies, Japanese, French companies still there, not
Speaker 1: increasing their scale of their operations, but just sustaining what
Speaker 1: they've had for the last twenty.
Speaker 4: Years there, and they are welcome. Same with investors.
Speaker 1: I mean, Iran desperately needs capital in the form of
Speaker 1: Verdi ideally, but portfolio investments as well channel funding through
Speaker 1: the stock market to local private companies. So this is
Speaker 1: badly needed and Iran is aware of that and understands.
Speaker 1: This offers government guarantees. We have the same guarantees as
Speaker 1: all the big European companies that are present there against
Speaker 1: extropriation of assets and so on and so forth.
Speaker 4: So it's not.
Speaker 1: That you're not welcome as a foreign investor. Quite quite
Speaker 1: the contrary. There are programs that are designed to make
Speaker 1: your life easier. You could even actually if you invest
Speaker 1: I don't remember it was around two hundred thousand euro
Speaker 1: dollar equivalent, you get a residency in Iran if you're
Speaker 1: interested in this for five years.
Speaker 4: I think so.
Speaker 1: There are many, many programs designed specifically for foreign investors
Speaker 1: to make the local market more attractive.
Speaker 4: In terms of capital.
Speaker 1: Controls for local residents have been always in place, so
Speaker 1: limits on how much of foreign currency they are able
Speaker 1: to buy and for what purposes. Right, so, if you
Speaker 1: want to send your child to school in the US
Speaker 1: or somewhere and you have to pay for education, this
Speaker 1: has like different quotas.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: If you want to travel, this is different, but it's
Speaker 1: very very formalized and bureaucratic.
Speaker 2: Other tech companies that trade on the turn stock market.
Speaker 4: There are tech companies.
Speaker 1: The ones that are that are listed are related to
Speaker 1: enterprise software.
Speaker 4: Or sub German. Yeah, SAP. But you have privately held companies.
Speaker 1: That would like to IPO, but they are just waiting
Speaker 1: for the approval from the regulator. And these are quite
Speaker 1: amazing companies. You have Snap, which is like an Uber,
Speaker 1: but Snap has more rights in Tehran than Uber in
Speaker 1: any city in the world.
Speaker 4: It's a really world class company. You have Dijkala, which
Speaker 4: is like a like.
Speaker 1: Amazon basically also a large company, one of the biggest
Speaker 1: success stories. And many, many, many smaller e commerce companies
Speaker 1: that are in the private market.
Speaker 2: We'll look out for them.
Speaker 3: Lots More is produced by Carmen Rodriguez and dash El Bennett,
Speaker 3: with help from Moses onom and kel Brooks.
Speaker 2: Our sound engineer is Blake Maples. Sage Bauman is the
Speaker 2: head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
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