Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek
Speaker 1: with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2: Hey Carol, before I do anything when it comes to ETFs,
Speaker 2: I get in touch with the folks at Bloomberg Intelligence
Speaker 2: because they know everything when it comes to ETF. So
Speaker 2: shout out to BI ETF analyst James Seyfert, who pointed
Speaker 2: me to a recent note that he wrote that says
Speaker 2: ETFs are on track to overtake mutual fund peers and
Speaker 2: assets within a decade. And then there's the question of
Speaker 2: passive versus active, because when we talk about ETFs, we
Speaker 2: talk about oftentimes index funds. Passive ETFs dominate. Here's some
Speaker 2: numbers from Bloomberg Intelligence five hundred and ninety five billion
Speaker 2: dollars in twenty twenty four. But don't shrug off those
Speaker 2: active equity ETFs because they're booming too, inflows exceeding thirty
Speaker 2: five billion dollars each quarter in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3: It makes me wonder do we need to have mutual funds.
Speaker 3: I always wonder about this, although people have said the
Speaker 3: reason why you need mutual funds, you.
Speaker 2: See mutual funds to moving to become ETFs.
Speaker 3: Incre right increasingly. All right, let's get into it with
Speaker 3: Eli Horton, and senior portfolio manager at TCW's Active ETF Investments.
Speaker 3: He joins us from Los Angeles. Eli, good to have
Speaker 3: you here. First of all, in terms of active versus passive,
Speaker 3: where do you see the new money flowing into and
Speaker 3: where do you guys think about focusing more of your
Speaker 3: efforts going forward in terms of fun creation.
Speaker 4: Well, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: Look at TCW. We have we've really identified the ETF
Speaker 4: rapper is very compelling from a tax perspective. We also
Speaker 4: are seeing a really incredible opportunity on the active investing side.
Speaker 4: I would highlight this is one of the best stock
Speaker 4: picking markets that I've certainly seen in my career. We're
Speaker 4: seeing significant levels of concentration, really the highest levels of
Speaker 4: concentration in about a century. We're also seeing mediful levels
Speaker 4: of dispersion in stocks, significant volatility. That's really our best
Speaker 4: friend when it comes to being an active store.
Speaker 2: Okay, so in terms of active stock picking, how do
Speaker 2: you see that going into somebody's portfolio if their portfolio
Speaker 2: is dominated by index funds. Eric Belchunis at Bloomberg Intelligence
Speaker 2: loves to call it the hot sauce effect. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like you have the boring S and P five
Speaker 2: hundred ETF for the you know, VTI Total stock Market
Speaker 2: Index from Vanguard or something like that, and then maybe
Speaker 2: you throw in like an ARC fund for three percent
Speaker 2: of your portfolio or something. How do you think about it?
Speaker 4: We look, you can look at the S and P
Speaker 4: five hundred and look at the concentration at the top
Speaker 4: of that index. You know, over thirty five percent is
Speaker 4: really in in ten companies, and so while many investors
Speaker 4: think they own a very diversified basket, there's a lot
Speaker 4: more concentration than folks think. A couple of strategies that
Speaker 4: we manage here at TCW. One invest in the energy transformation,
Speaker 4: the other invest in the reshoring of supply chains and
Speaker 4: bringing manufacturing back to the US. These are actively managed
Speaker 4: twenty to thirty stock portfolios investing in multi decade mega themes.
Speaker 4: And you wouldn't actually find those structural themes represented very
Speaker 4: high highly in the SB five hundred at all. You
Speaker 4: probably have somewhere between eight to twelve percent exposure. So
Speaker 4: I think that is extremely complementary too many investors, and
Speaker 4: it also provides that active stock picking, which, like I
Speaker 4: said earlier, I think this is one of the most
Speaker 4: favorable markets I've seen in my career for stock picking.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Interesting, all right, So thematics make a difference, right,
Speaker 3: And I am curious about the thematics that you think
Speaker 3: are going to be most appropriate in this environment or
Speaker 3: is it just everything, just everything, or not necessarily?
Speaker 4: Well, I think you have to be very selective and
Speaker 4: avoid fads and look for we'll call it mega themes
Speaker 4: or mega trends, themes that will be multiple decades in durations.
Speaker 4: So I'll hit one the energy information. So we have
Speaker 4: a strategy that we call transformed systems the ticker's power
Speaker 4: at PWRD, and we're investing in the migration of the
Speaker 4: world's energy system from a fossil fuel system to renewable energy.
Speaker 4: We are probably twenty years in to this process, and
Speaker 4: if you just look at where power and energy are
Speaker 4: source from, only about fifteen to twenty percent is truly
Speaker 4: renewable and the rest is hydrocarbon based. So even twenty
Speaker 4: years in, we're nowhere close to the endgame and the
Speaker 4: world's investing about two trillion dollars per year to migrate
Speaker 4: towards this end state. That two trillion dollars is growing
Speaker 4: every single year. It's largely non discretionary, and it's creating
Speaker 4: tremendous opportunities, whether it's the power and electrical grid, transportation,
Speaker 4: commercial services, a variety of different businesses. Again going back
Speaker 4: to my earlier comments, many of these companies are old
Speaker 4: economy companies unless represented in the broader markets. And this
Speaker 4: is a theme where you've got a nice tailwind at
Speaker 4: your back for decades. That's one of the examples I highlight.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm looking at PWRD, as you said, the TCW
Speaker 3: Transformation Systems ETF. It's up about thirty two percent in
Speaker 3: the past year, up about eight percent so far year
Speaker 3: to date. And if I look at some of the holdings,
Speaker 3: it is it's ge it's Airbus, it's Vistra, which we
Speaker 3: know has been a big you know, been rewarded by
Speaker 3: the AI spend in terms of the energy expectations Union Pacific.
Speaker 3: So it's kind of a so what's the theme there.
Speaker 3: It's just anybody that's impacted by the move towards renewables.
Speaker 4: So the point I think we should try to drive
Speaker 4: home here is that investing in the energy transformation requires
Speaker 4: a much broader subset of businesses and value chains and
Speaker 4: systems than most think. It's not just energy, it's not
Speaker 4: just batteries when solar, there is so much more that
Speaker 4: goes to play here. So you mentioned THISRA is a
Speaker 4: generator of power, not gas nuclear. Our grid needs to
Speaker 4: be expanded massively. We're short power. This RA is enabling
Speaker 4: the transformation. You mentioned GE. Most folks wouldn't think of
Speaker 4: an aerospace engine company as being part of the energy transformation,
Speaker 4: but GE makes one of the premiere engines that go
Speaker 4: on the planes we all fly around. It burns twenty
Speaker 4: percent less fuel. That's obviously great for the environment, but
Speaker 4: it is extremely valuable to the airline customers. We're spending
Speaker 4: a third of their operating cost on fuel. So we've
Speaker 4: got a power producer, an aerospace engine supplier, a variety
Speaker 4: of other types of companies that are actually vital to
Speaker 4: transforming the systems or our energy system, if you will.
Speaker 4: It's much bigger than just traditional energy or renewal energy.
Speaker 2: You've also got waste management services in there as well.
Speaker 2: We like talking trash here. We've talked to the folks
Speaker 2: at some of these huge companies Republic Services that are listed.
Speaker 2: What's the opportunity that you say, We.
Speaker 4: Love talking trash too, and Republic has been one. It's
Speaker 4: been one of our large investments since inception of the
Speaker 4: strategy three years ago. Amongst other merits that Republic has
Speaker 4: that make it such a great business, it is actually
Speaker 4: taking its landfills, and inside these landfills there's a bunch
Speaker 4: of biograded, more biodegradable material that emits gases, primarily methan.
Speaker 4: Republic can capture and capture that gas, run some industrial
Speaker 4: processes on it, and out the other side comes renewable
Speaker 4: natural gas. So they're literally taking trash turn it into
Speaker 4: natural gas that can then be sold into the market
Speaker 4: perfectly circular. The net IRRs on these projects are in
Speaker 4: excess of fifty to sixty percent, so it's very high
Speaker 4: value business and no one ever thinks about that when
Speaker 4: you think about Republic's business, but it's actually very important
Speaker 4: for the energy transformation, very valuable to the stock and
Speaker 4: so we've been proud owners of Republic for a few years.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: What's the can you just take me through as portfolio manager,
Speaker 2: your process for adding to a stock, adding a stock,
Speaker 2: selling a stock, or removing a stock, like what goes
Speaker 2: into that look.
Speaker 4: So at the end of the day, our investment process
Speaker 4: is one that we strive to have be repeatable, teachable,
Speaker 4: proven through cycles. It's very fundamentally oriented, very bottoms up driven,
Speaker 4: and we're looking for companies that are misunderstood or have
Speaker 4: secular growth opportunities that the market's not appreciating. And when
Speaker 4: we find a great business where we think there's an
Speaker 4: asymmetrical range of outcomes where rewared really offsets risk by
Speaker 4: large magnitude, you'll see us express conviction in the form
Speaker 4: of sizing, and so businesses like Republic or ge where
Speaker 4: we are extremely optimistic about the multi year prospects will
Speaker 4: make them large investments in the portfolio. I believe as
Speaker 4: an investor that type of concentration and sizing is how
Speaker 4: you beat the market through the cycle.
Speaker 3: All right, we're gonna leave it on that note. Listen,
Speaker 3: there's so much happening in the energy space, so really
Speaker 3: kind of cool to see your perspective and take on
Speaker 3: all of this. Eli, Thank you. Eli Horton, Senior portfolio
Speaker 3: manager at TCW's active ETF Investments joining us from Los
Speaker 3: Angeles Opening.
Speaker 2: I had a commercial at last night's Super Bowl, and
Speaker 2: by the way, the cost of those ads risen to
Speaker 2: a record of over eight million dollars. A Week pointed
Speaker 2: out that Duncan, Pfizer, T Mobile, Nike, Jeep and others
Speaker 2: are among the companies that spent the most opting for
Speaker 2: some sixty and ninety seconds.
Speaker 3: At spot Duncan Spot was long.
Speaker 2: The boy band one No, the.
Speaker 3: One where what's his name was in the that of
Speaker 3: coffee beans. Okay, but with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, Okay, no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 3: But Ben ben Affleck, you know.
Speaker 2: You know, I guess Doug Zarkin is going.
Speaker 3: To the bathroom during the Super Bowl. I'm just going
Speaker 3: to say, you can't watch all the commercials.
Speaker 2: Doug Zarget is chief brand officer of Modern Performance and
Speaker 2: Recovery Brands. It's a holding company that counts the Good
Speaker 2: feed Store, IMG Source, Stretched and Compression out the mung
Speaker 2: Its brands. Doug's also held executive roles in marketing at Leuksotica,
Speaker 2: Avon and Victoria's Secret and more. He's also the author
Speaker 2: of Moving Your Brand out of the Friend zone, he
Speaker 2: joins us from New York. Doug, is that money well spent?
Speaker 2: Carol can't doesn't even remember the duncan.
Speaker 3: At I do remember, so I can't remember the actor
Speaker 3: who was also in it, the Jeremy Stu was it Jeremy.
Speaker 5: Strong in the Jermy Strong from Succession?
Speaker 6: Yeah, eight eight million dollars for a thirty second spot
Speaker 6: is actually the most cost fish and media buy on
Speaker 6: the planet because it reaches about one hundred and twenty
Speaker 6: five million people. The challenge is you got to go bigger,
Speaker 6: go home. You have to be either really sentimental in
Speaker 6: teer jerky or really over the top funny because consumers,
Speaker 6: and I talk about this in my book, make emotional
Speaker 6: decisions before they make rational choices. And the commercials that
Speaker 6: we're talking about today were either very emotional on one
Speaker 6: side or the other side.
Speaker 5: Of the aisle.
Speaker 2: When did it like it becomes socially acceptable for celebrities
Speaker 2: to do whatever they to do anything for money? Because
Speaker 2: I was I was part of the generation Carrol and
Speaker 2: I you know, I think you probably remember this, like
Speaker 2: the whole concept of selling out. Yeah, it was like
Speaker 2: a thing. Oh yeah, that doesn't exist anymore. When did
Speaker 2: that happen.
Speaker 3: No, and brand's like being I feel like affiliated with celebrities.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it used to be a dirty little secret.
Speaker 6: They would go overseas and they would shoot a commercial,
Speaker 6: you know, Oscar winners would maintain their creative integrity. Well,
Speaker 6: creative integrity started to go out the window when the
Speaker 6: paychecks started to be seven and eight figures. When you're
Speaker 6: seeing George Clooney do an espresso commercial, I scratch grait,
Speaker 6: you're going on the money must be really good. And
Speaker 6: I would say this because you can doesn't mean you should.
Speaker 6: And I mean that specifically with celebrities. If it's not
Speaker 6: adding real value to your brand message, you're just sticking
Speaker 6: them in and you're paying a huge out of pocket
Speaker 6: cost for what may not add to the story or
Speaker 6: the memorability of your ad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to say I do stop when there's
Speaker 3: a celebrity. You know what's interesting. I think of kind
Speaker 3: of like all the fashion magazines when they were still
Speaker 3: you know, I mean some of them were still in print,
Speaker 3: a lot of them, but like a Vogue or something,
Speaker 3: and it became no longer that models like the supermodel
Speaker 3: era of how many years ago, But it was celebrities
Speaker 3: that are on in Style magazine was always a celebrity
Speaker 3: on the cover. It really wasn't models anymore, and it's
Speaker 3: just speaks to the power of the celebrity. I don't know,
Speaker 3: I feel like the last couple of Super Bowls, the
Speaker 3: commercials were really, really boring. I thought they were more
Speaker 3: interesting last night.
Speaker 6: You know, there were some definite big winners, you know.
Speaker 6: I think the NFL came out huge, yes with their
Speaker 6: girls played flag football, really strong, emotional spot, the Laze
Speaker 6: Little Farmer spot where the girl plants the potato and
Speaker 6: raises the potato to be a potato chip.
Speaker 5: Super sweet, super sweet.
Speaker 6: But then there were some that kind of jumped the shark,
Speaker 6: you know, bud Light with Shane Gillison, post Malone. That's
Speaker 6: an example of because you could, I don't know if
Speaker 6: you should. You know, what did they add to the story.
Speaker 6: And if there's another commercial with Peyton Manning or Tom
Speaker 6: Brady in it, I honestly mayor shoot myself.
Speaker 5: It is so over the top.
Speaker 6: But there were some definite big winners. I think everybody
Speaker 6: loved the Mission Impossible trailer.
Speaker 5: That was a big, big win.
Speaker 6: The Stellar ar twa ad with David Beckham and Matt
Speaker 6: Damon really really funny.
Speaker 5: Oh it was great.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: The only thing is I think we're over the joke
Speaker 6: of the Matt and Ben relationship. Duncan played into it
Speaker 6: in the duncan Ad you were talking about. Yeah, Stellar
Speaker 6: ar twa played into it. There's a lot more ways
Speaker 6: to skin a cap and going to that old tried
Speaker 6: true gag of Matt and Ben.
Speaker 5: But there were some real big winners last night.
Speaker 2: He does some big losers thirty seconds left. If if
Speaker 2: it's such a great ROI for eight million dollars, why
Speaker 2: are they only charging eight million dollars?
Speaker 6: Because it's eight million dollars, it's still a pretty darn
Speaker 6: big number. Because it is a go big or go home,
Speaker 6: you risk it. It's a highly visible but it is
Speaker 6: also a highly critical opportunity. People are going to lambast
Speaker 6: you if it's bad, and they're going to tell you
Speaker 6: it's really good. If it's really good, you win bigger,
Speaker 6: you lose big on the Super Bowl.
Speaker 3: What I also thought was interesting, and I know we're
Speaker 3: running out of time, but something like the Nike spot
Speaker 3: and women and in sports like we are wondering whether
Speaker 3: corporations are rolling back on diversity and inclusion and efforts
Speaker 3: and being very careful with the new administration. Some would
Speaker 3: say that they are, but it was interesting to see
Speaker 3: something like that Nike spot very you know, behind women
Speaker 3: and behind women in sports just quickly.
Speaker 6: So a great opportunity for companies to show their values
Speaker 6: to the consumers all over the world.
Speaker 3: All right, good stuff, Hey, this was fun, Doug, Thank
Speaker 3: you so much. Doug Zarkin. He's chief brand officer at
Speaker 3: Modern Performance and Recovery Brands. Joining us in New York City.
Speaker 3: You are listening and watching Bloomberg Business Week, Carol Master
Speaker 3: of Timstead back.
Speaker 2: From Algeria to the Seychelles to the Upper East Side
Speaker 2: and everything in between. Our Bloomberg Pursuits team has got
Speaker 2: you covered. Check out the magazines where to Go in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five interactive feature. It gives you personalized month
Speaker 2: by month estimates for hotel and flight costs alongside each recommendation.
Speaker 3: It's super fun to play with. We did it and
Speaker 3: we've done a deep dive into it. So if you
Speaker 3: missed it, you can just check out our podcast feed
Speaker 3: because it's got some pretty cool stuff. Well.
Speaker 2: For more on travel this year, we're joined by Haley Berg,
Speaker 2: lead economists travel app Hopper. She joins us from Boston.
Speaker 2: They have done some serious number crunching over at Hopper
Speaker 2: this year. Hayley, what can you tell us about the
Speaker 2: American consumer in twenty twenty five and how much we're
Speaker 2: going to spend on travel?
Speaker 7: Well, the answer is most consumers are going to be
Speaker 7: spending a lot on travel, and if they aren't spending
Speaker 7: the same as they did last year, they're expanding it.
Speaker 7: We found that more than half of Americans planned to
Speaker 7: spend at least the same amount as they did last
Speaker 7: year on travel hotels, airfare, activities, and about twenty three percent,
Speaker 7: so almost one in four are going to spend even more.
Speaker 7: And that's true across income ranges, across ages of those travelers.
Speaker 7: Expansion is in the air. Who's traveling, young people.
Speaker 3: Old people.
Speaker 7: Everyone is hitting the skies and staying. We are seeing
Speaker 7: the greatest growth from younger travelers gen Z who are
Speaker 7: built wealth, millennials who are enjoying some wealth. But we
Speaker 7: are also seeing that retiree ages boomers, they're spending more
Speaker 7: on premium, they're taking those end of the career trips.
Speaker 7: So really, expenditures coming from everywhere.
Speaker 3: Got to say one of our colleagues, who will remain nameless,
Speaker 3: just took an amazing trip that took eighteen hours to
Speaker 3: get there. Incredible remote resort. We're not going to say
Speaker 3: who because we keep secrets around here.
Speaker 2: Well, he does talk about it on a new podcast,
Speaker 2: a new edition of his Hot Pursuit podcast. So I
Speaker 2: just want to give a little.
Speaker 3: Matt miller'er outed. I'm just going to tell you he's
Speaker 3: going to talk.
Speaker 2: About it on the podcast, so apparently.
Speaker 3: But it's pretty remarkable and it looks like a really
Speaker 3: cool thing. No kids, no kids came along, just see
Speaker 3: and his wife. So sorry, Matt, We just like laid
Speaker 3: it out for everybody. It is interesting that that's continuing.
Speaker 3: Are there certain parts of the world where people are
Speaker 3: going increasingly? Like we've talked about Japan has been a
Speaker 3: pretty hot spot, right everybody went to Italy? Was it
Speaker 3: last summer? There's summer summer before. Where are people going?
Speaker 7: Well, Matt's not alone. Ends of the Earth destinations are
Speaker 7: actually one of the fastest growing segments. Patagonia greenland destinations
Speaker 7: that take a very long time to get to and
Speaker 7: are difficult to traverse, are definitely growing in popularity. But
Speaker 7: also some more mainstream destinations. You know, at this time
Speaker 7: of year, it's a lot of Caribbean destinations this summer.
Speaker 7: We are expecting to see an uptick in demand for
Speaker 7: Bangkok after The White Lotus premieres later this month. We've
Speaker 7: seen in the past couple of years, as each season
Speaker 7: of that show releases, it's followed by a huge surgeon
Speaker 7: demand for where they filmed. So we are seeing ends
Speaker 7: of the Earth, but also some more of those mainstream
Speaker 7: destinations in Japan. Nothing is stopping the demand in Japan.
Speaker 7: It remains the number one international destination seeing growth.
Speaker 2: That's pretty amazing because I was going to say, Carol,
Speaker 2: did mention that you've told us about Japan, but it
Speaker 2: was last time you were on with us you said Japan.
Speaker 2: The time before that you were on with us, you
Speaker 2: said Japan, Kaylee, what's the next Japan. By the way,
Speaker 2: what's the next Japan?
Speaker 7: It could be Bangkok. You know, we haven't had one
Speaker 7: of these set jetting destinations that it's what we call
Speaker 7: them when media drives where people travel. We haven't had
Speaker 7: one in.
Speaker 3: A few years.
Speaker 7: We saw Croatia, we saw Iceland. With the Game of
Speaker 7: Throne series, We've seen Yellowstone with that series, driving to
Speaker 7: band to Montana, so it might be Thailand that's up next.
Speaker 3: Very cool you say that like all different ages, but
Speaker 3: are people looking I mean for like value, are their deals?
Speaker 3: Are they booking in advance to get the best prices?
Speaker 3: What else can you tell us about the state of
Speaker 3: the consumer. They're obviously, as you're saying, or traveling, but
Speaker 3: I am curious if increasingly we're seeing people looking for
Speaker 3: a deal.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, we track what we call deal seeking behavior when
Speaker 7: people are booking, how often they're checking the price before
Speaker 7: they book. And what's really interesting is that about two
Speaker 7: thirds of travelers are checking multiple websites or apps at
Speaker 7: least three or more before they actually make their travel bookings.
Speaker 7: And that shows us that there is price sensitivity. But
Speaker 7: on the flip side, we've heard from the airlines, we've
Speaker 7: heard from the hotels that this demand for premium is
Speaker 7: just not exhausted yet, it's still growing. And I am
Speaker 7: seeing that as well. We have these price sensitive customers
Speaker 7: who are checking multiple sites, really doing their homework, but
Speaker 7: they're also willing to pay extra for things like flexibility,
Speaker 7: disruption protection, a room with a view or a hotel
Speaker 7: with a nice restaurant. So it's a little bit of
Speaker 7: a balancing act. The youngest travelers are definitely the most
Speaker 7: price sensitive, but there is a balance between how price
Speaker 7: sensitive Americans are and how much they're just trying to
Speaker 7: kind of hack that budget to get the most out
Speaker 7: of it.
Speaker 2: And yet, according to your research, the folks at the
Speaker 2: lower end of the income spectrum expected to spend more
Speaker 2: on travel this year. What's the explanation for that?
Speaker 7: About twenty two percent of the households earning the least
Speaker 7: in the US are actually expanding this expanding their travel
Speaker 7: expenditure next year. And I think a big part of
Speaker 7: that is getting more out of their existing or a
Speaker 7: slightly bigger budget. But also it's this shift that travel
Speaker 7: and experiences are what households want to spend on once
Speaker 7: they've paid for their needs, and that's why they're continuing
Speaker 7: to expand this travel budget.
Speaker 3: Hey, where do cruises come into this? We caught up
Speaker 3: with the CEO of Royal Caribbean and they reported a
Speaker 3: full year profit forecast that blew away past street I
Speaker 3: should say expectations cruise demand. They talked about continuing to
Speaker 3: ramp up. This was just at the end of January,
Speaker 3: and then they're moving now into the river cruises, which
Speaker 3: we've seen certainly other lines, whether it's Viking, Carnival has
Speaker 3: been doing it. To Carnival's upbeat as well. We've talked
Speaker 3: with the CEO there. How does cruising fit into this
Speaker 3: and what are you seeing in terms of demand.
Speaker 7: Cruising is definitely an area of growth, especially as you say,
Speaker 7: those river cruises which offer a more intimate, smaller, but
Speaker 7: more of a unique experience. We know those types of
Speaker 7: experiences are hugely popular. They're growing in demand, especially among
Speaker 7: younger travelers. Historically, some of those river cruises have been
Speaker 7: more focused on an older generation of traveler, but that
Speaker 7: is shifting. I think a lot of travelers see cruises
Speaker 7: as a great all inclusive They know the price tag
Speaker 7: for everything food, where they're going, the activities that they're
Speaker 7: going to be able to do. So cruises are actually
Speaker 7: a way to really manage that travel budget. And I'm
Speaker 7: not at all surprised that we're still seeing surging demand
Speaker 7: for trips on cruises, whether they be short river cruises,
Speaker 7: are some of those bigger Caribbean ones.
Speaker 3: All right, got it, hey, Hayley, We're going to leave
Speaker 3: it on that note, Haley, thank you so much. Hailey
Speaker 3: Berg lead economist over Opper, joining us on this Monday
Speaker 3: from Boston.
Speaker 2: Where are you going?
Speaker 3: Maybe some beach time. I don't know about anything else.
Speaker 3: Sam not complaining, it's just it's a little early to
Speaker 3: be planning the beach. Carol, It's never too early