1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. They are not too 2 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: many things in this world that are more tragic than 3 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: a motherless child. It's really hard to fathom that for 4 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: those of us that grew up with a mama. And 5 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: but and it's hard, I think, for anyone that grew 6 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: up with that level of normalacy in your world to appreciate, 7 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: to appreciate what life might hold for these individuals moving 8 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: forward that no longer have a loving mother, and then 9 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: to compound that with the absence of a father. Wow, 10 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: there's so much to learn in this world. There's so 11 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: many things to experience, so many lessons to be taught. 12 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: But we have a case that has been in the 13 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: news now for several years that is finally, after all 14 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: this time, moving forward, and the case is that of 15 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: Jennifer Doulos. It's Jennifer Dulos and the tragedy that befell 16 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: this vibrant mother, mother five and not really knowing what 17 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: the future of those children is. But in the immediate 18 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: we don't really know what the future is of the 19 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: trials that we have at hand. I know this, I 20 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: know that foud Is Dulos, her former husband, is no 21 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: longer in the picture because he took his life and 22 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: they are no more. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 23 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: is body I think, Dave. Some of the great memories 24 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: I have from childhood actually stemmed from nightmares and the 25 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: nightmares that I had after I shook myself awake. As 26 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: a small child. I used to always have a nightmare 27 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: involving falling, and I even fell out of out of 28 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: my bed as a young child and struck the floor 29 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: and fractured my collar bone, and I kind of, without 30 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: verbalizing it, walked around, according to my mother for a 31 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: couple of days just with my right arm, just kind 32 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: of hanging and not using it. But through all of 33 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: those nightmares that I went through as a child, my 34 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: mother was there to comfort me. That's not the case 35 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: with the Dula's children. That that part, as hard as 36 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: that is to swallow, that part of their life is 37 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: gone literally literally and they don't have a father to 38 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: assuage any kind of fears or terrors that they might 39 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: have at night. As a matter of fact, I think 40 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: that when they look back in the rearview mirror, they're 41 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: going to look back and they will see terror in there. 42 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: In there the rearview mirror going back with this family. 43 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: I don't know how any family recovers from this kind 44 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: of trauma. 45 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: You know, we've covered so many stories over the years 46 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: that ended up in death, that started with a marriage 47 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: that fell apart, did it cheating and in the case 48 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: of well, the trial of Michelle Treconis, she was the 49 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: other woman. But to back up to find out how 50 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: we got here, you mentioned five children. Jennifer Dulo's and 51 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: Fotus Dulo's were married, they had five children. To help 52 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: along with this, they hired nanny Lauren Almida. I'm mentioning 53 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: her now because as we go through this from here 54 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 2: on out, Lauren Almida is the source of a lot 55 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: of information that we get about the inner workings of 56 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: the family dynamic. 57 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 3: And Lauren Almida. 58 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: At thirty two years old, has been with these children 59 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 2: for thirteen years pretty much, and she is or twelve 60 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 2: years and she's still with them, Joe, as we talk 61 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: about all of this. Lauren Almida began as a babysitter 62 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 2: for the Dulo's children when she was in college. She 63 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 2: and her sister were part time nanny babysitter of slash 64 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 2: nanny and when she got out of college, Jennifer Dulos 65 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: asked her to remain on as the nanny, and she 66 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: did so. When I think about the five children of 67 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: Jennifer and Potus Doulos, I think, thank God for Lauren Elmina. 68 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 1: I don't think that. I don't think that we would 69 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: we would have the level of info that we have 70 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: right now if it wasn't for Lauren. The trial, as 71 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: we're taping, this is actually going on, and I was 72 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: a bore witness to to her testimony, and it was powerful. 73 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: I think that it was powerful, Dave, because it's God, 74 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: there's not a it sounds I know, this sounds horribly salacious, 75 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: but to have her on the stand was kind of voyeuristic, 76 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: I think, relative to the deal of family life, lives 77 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: and and kind of the inner workings. Just the legit. 78 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. This is the thing that struck me, 79 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: the justics of moving five kids around to all of 80 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: their activities in school and all this stuff. And this 81 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: became a point of contention because Foudus actually got rather 82 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: belligerent and argumentative and threatening according to Jennifer, and she 83 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: was accused of making things more difficult than they should 84 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: be because she had scheduled activities for the kids on Saturdays. Well, 85 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, you know, that's what happens. I 86 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: mean kids, kids have soccer, they have danced, they I mean, 87 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: you name it. And certainly my family's been involved in 88 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: all of it. And it it's hectic. And then you 89 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: put that extra pressure of a separation that's going on, 90 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: and particularly a separation that is involving infidelity. Oh my god, 91 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: you talk about I adding spice. 92 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: To get right down to it. Jennifer Dulos and Photos Doulos. 93 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 2: When I'm vacation with the children, all five children in 94 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: the March of twenty seventeen, they spent one week out 95 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 2: in Aspen, Colorado, doing snow skiing, and they spent the 96 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: second week in Florida snow you know, water skiing, and 97 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: it was a fantastic journey for a vacation. But it 98 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: was during that time, in March of twenty seventeen, that 99 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: Jennifer Dulos went to Lauren al Mighta, the children's nanny, 100 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: and said, I believe Potus is cheating on me, and 101 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: I have the proof. And Lauren al might have thought 102 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: a lot of Photus, She thought a lot of him 103 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: as a man. She had not seen different sides of 104 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: him at that point, but she was just shocked. But 105 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: that's where everything changed in the Dulo's family. That led 106 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: to what we're talking about today. So think March twenty seventeen. 107 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: May of twenty nineteen, Jennifer Dulos and Photus Dulos were separated. 108 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: Jennifer Dulos was living had the five children with her 109 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: and they had rented a house. Potus Dulos that Jennifer 110 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: thought he was having an affair with Michelle Traconis actually 111 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 2: was living with Fotus Dulos in May of twenty nineteen, 112 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: So Jennifer was right in her suspicions. Now, what happened 113 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: on the day that Jennifer Dulos went missing, And you 114 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: mentioned the getting the children from here to there in 115 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: different things and meetings, and it was a busy schedule, 116 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: and it was busy enough that people kind of knew 117 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 2: what her schedule was. Her friends, Laura Almida, the nanny, 118 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: knew Jennifer Dulo's schedule during the day because of the 119 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: five children that needed to be, you know, here and there. 120 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: So on this particular day, Jennifer Dulos dropped the children 121 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: off at school, went back to the house and that's it. 122 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: That is all we know based on the evidence we 123 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: have right this minute. She disappeared that morning. She didn't 124 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: show up at any of her planned appointments. Later that day, 125 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: Lauren Almita, the nanny, picked the children up and kept moving. 126 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 2: She had texted because they had a journey planned. They 127 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: had to go to New York, had to go traveling 128 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: to a number of different places, and Lauren had texted 129 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 2: Jennifer about one thing came It was an iPad. One 130 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: of the children was not allowed to use their iPad 131 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 2: for Instagram because they had gotten on restriction over it. 132 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: And the nanny was saying, can we take this? You know, 133 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: I know it's been taken, but it's a long drive 134 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: and when. 135 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: And I think that if I remember correctly, they couldn't 136 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: find the child's iPad and they were going to have 137 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: to utilize according to Lowe, Sorry, Lauren used the family 138 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: iPad and that was her thing. She wanted to know 139 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: if they could bring that with them because. 140 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: They right, And when she didn't get a reply, it 141 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: was funny because on the stand, one of those little things, 142 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: a little slice of life that we all have gone through. 143 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: But on the stand, Lauren Almida, you know, they asked her, well, 144 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: what did you do? 145 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: Well? 146 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 2: When I didn't hear back from her, I made the decision. 147 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: It was a long drive. We took the family iPad. Anyway, 148 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 2: that was the beginning of realizing that something's not quite right. 149 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: Jennifer wasn't replying to text messages, couldn't get her on 150 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: the phone, and so by that evening when nobody had 151 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: heard from her, and by then Lauren had talked with 152 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 2: you know, Jennifer's extended family and friends, and it was 153 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: Laura Almia that called police and said, I don't know 154 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: where she is. And so as police came to investigate, 155 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 2: there were a number of red flags fairly early on 156 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: in their investigation. One was the fact that there was 157 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: a vehicle in the garage and there was one missing. 158 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 2: Michelle wasn't there, but her purse was there, her keys 159 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: were there, items that if she was going somewhere she 160 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: would normally have. 161 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 3: Where did she leave? 162 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: She left a cup of tea too, Yes, I think 163 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: that she commonly carried with her to drink, right, Yeah, 164 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: why would you leave a location like this? And you know, look, 165 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: we look for patterns and investigations and things. If anybody 166 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:19,839 Speaker 1: deviates from a norm, we are I think as investigators 167 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: we are cynical. We assume, you know, because we're requested 168 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: out at something like this, you know, we assume that 169 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: the worst has happened most of the time, and we 170 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: start to dig into those spots. It goes back to 171 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: the old adage, you know where. And they didn't know 172 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: at this time if this was a death or not. 173 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: But you know, we when we work deaths as death investigators, 174 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: we assume that every death is a homicide until proven otherwise. 175 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: And so when you start to see as an investigator, 176 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: and look, Lauren would have truly had the insight into this. Look, 177 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, she's saying she would have never have left 178 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: the house without these items, and why are they here? 179 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: And she's not here, and this other vehicle is not here. 180 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: I think it was her suburban right that was actually missing. 181 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: But the land rover, yeah, range rover was there and 182 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: parked in the garage. 183 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: And that's where there were just red flags. Like I said, now, 184 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 2: the first officer arrives on the scene, and this is 185 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 2: where Joseph Scott Morgan, you got a lot of plaining 186 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: to do. Boy, because I'm gonna tell you right off 187 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: the bat when the first officer is on scene to 188 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: get you up to speed. Jennifer Dillos has not been 189 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: seen since she dropped the children off early that morning. 190 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: She missed all of her appointments. Nobody that normally has 191 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: contact with her has had contact. And now the police 192 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: officer rives and he starts looking around. Now, there was 193 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: something that Lauren Almita noticed in the kitchen. And she 194 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: had the day before placed a number of paper towels 195 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 2: in a cabinet in the kitchen, and when she saw 196 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: the tea she was cleaning up, had brought subway home 197 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 2: for the children to eat because they had the long 198 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: drive to New York, and so she was just looking 199 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: for basic stuff to clean up before they left, and 200 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: realized that she had loaded like ten paper towels in 201 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: this cabinet and they were gone. 202 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 3: They were like two left. 203 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: There were two I think it was actually twelve, and 204 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: there were ten missing missing. That's the thing that just 205 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: a gross I guess that's what that is. I don't know. 206 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 3: It's like too many paper towels in it. 207 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: I know, I know, And I'm going to get to 208 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: that from a forensics perspective, because that's got that has 209 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: got that that that's a big tail. You know, when 210 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: you begin to think about this person, Lauren, who has 211 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: you know, like we've established it, if she's got this 212 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: this inside look at what's going on within this family 213 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: dynamic and down to you mentioned those those little slices 214 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: of life, and the devil is in the details. The 215 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: explanation is actually in the details because within this environment, 216 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: Within this environment, Lauren understood schedules, she understood logistics, she 217 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: understood it sounds like a military operation. She understood planning. 218 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: She understood what it took for this family to live 219 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: the life that they were living. She understood the stressors. 220 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: And the one big thing that she understood is that 221 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: Jennifer Doulos would never ever abandon the church. I think 222 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: the older I've gotten in more clumsy I've gotten days. 223 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: It seems like there is not a day that goes 224 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: by in my life. Now they don't spill something. And 225 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: by the way, I meant to tell you this, I'm 226 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: am my refrigerator here at home. I've got an ice maker. 227 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: I think that it's possessed because every time I open 228 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: the door to the freezer ice falls out that's caught 229 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: in the tube, and I can't get the problem resolved, 230 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: and of course that winds up, you know, my wife 231 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: Kim saying what's going on, And it's always the same thing. 232 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: The ice fell out of the freezer, you know, And 233 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: there I am. I'm down on my hands and knees 234 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: trying to pick up the ice because We've got these 235 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: hardwood floors in the kitchen and I'm worried about stains 236 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: and all that stuff on them and are slipping. I 237 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: have to find the ice, but David, I don't. And 238 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: the one thing I'm always asking my wife, And of 239 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: course my wife, God bless her, she Gimmy always knows 240 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: what supplies are on hand, and she knows where the 241 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: paper towels are, and I'm always looking for them. And 242 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: I think it's because I'm the chief centers. I'm the 243 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: one that's using all of them all the time, and 244 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: I expect there to be an innat supply. But when 245 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: you think about ten rolls of paper towels, how you 246 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: know you go back and look all these all these 247 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: paper towel companies, how do they sell paper towels? Well? 248 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: They uh, you know, they they tell us how absorbent 249 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: they are. You know what what you can clean up 250 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: and man those tests that they show on TV, Lord 251 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: have mercy. It looks like when they take their brand 252 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: and they wipe it across the surface, they want you 253 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: to think you can do surgery on that spot without 254 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: applying anything else. All it takes is one of their 255 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: paper towels. And of course we know that that's not the reality. 256 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: There's always some residual amount that's left behind, and I 257 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: think that that's key in Jennifer Dulos's case. 258 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 2: Dave Well, when the first police officer shows up, he 259 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 2: comes in and there were two officers. One had a bodycam, 260 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: one didn't. The first officer on the scene Lieutenant Aaron Latreau, 261 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: and he explains what he is seeing as he walks through. 262 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 2: He walked into the garage. He went through the entire house. 263 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 2: But I want to go to the garage because that 264 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: was where the range rover is there. But her Chevy 265 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 2: Suburban is not talking about Jennifer Doulo. Chevy Suburban is 266 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: not in the garage, and that was the card they 267 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 2: would have expected her to normally drive, and. 268 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: She's she's hauling around an army of kids. 269 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: Right, and so yeah, as the officer arrives on scene, 270 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: he and the other officer, officer Black, who has the 271 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: body cam, we actually have a chance to watch this. 272 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: The body cam footage lasts about twenty minutes, and in 273 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: it you actually see the garage and you see. 274 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: Things that they really stand out. 275 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: Joe, and you showed me some of the pictures and 276 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: explain what they meant, because while Latreau, the officer didn't 277 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: know exactly what, he could not say, well, I see 278 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: blood in here, he said, I see things that could 279 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 2: be might be are right, And one of the things 280 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: that was suggested early on in the garage and Latreau 281 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: he said on the on the tape or during testamon 282 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 2: I said, while we waited, I looked at the vehicle. 283 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: I noticed that there was what appeared to be red 284 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: blood on the front of that vehicle. There was a 285 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 2: red mark on the grill area. It drew his attention 286 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: because it didn't match the color of the grill, didn't 287 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: match the color of the vehicle. There was no damage 288 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: to the vehicle that he could see, and he and 289 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 2: the other officer discussed maybe hit a deer. Maybe they 290 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: hit it, you know, maybe the driver hit a deer, 291 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: but there were no there was no hair, there was 292 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: nothing in no indication that a deer was hit. So 293 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: they have what they both believed to be blood on 294 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: the vehicle and other places as well, and you cannot 295 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: say it. I don't know how this works. I mean, 296 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 2: do you guys not have like a winking and nod 297 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 2: to one another when you're on scene. You know it's blood, 298 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 2: but you can't say it's blood. You have to be 299 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: vague about. 300 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: I say it. Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this 301 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: up because I know a lot of people have questions 302 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: about this. I have people that are asked me that 303 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: ask me this question all the time. We will couch, 304 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: we being investigators, we will couch in our reports prior 305 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: to presumptive testing being conducted at a scene. We will 306 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: say things like, let me see, how can I phrase it? 307 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: This is a blood like substance. You're in a report, 308 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: you'll hear that or see it, and then you'll see 309 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: a red substance or a red dried substance. And you'd 310 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: never want to paint yourself into a corner because let 311 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: me tell you how this happens. If there's not a 312 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: presumptive test that takes place, and I'll explain that in 313 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: just a second. And you're a police officer, you write 314 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: in your report that that is blood. When they get 315 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: you on the stand, if that's in your official report, 316 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: the defense attorney is going to rip you to shreds. 317 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: And this is the way the conversation is going to go. 318 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: They say, you know, gee, investigator Morgan, I noticed here 319 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: that you said that you found blood staining the floor, 320 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: or you found blood staining the side of the vehicle. 321 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: I was wondering, are you a zerologist, no, sir, Well 322 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: are you know? Are you trace evidence a specialist? No, sir? 323 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: Are you a physician? Yeah, you must be a physician. 324 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: Tell us where did you go to medical school? And 325 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: you see what they're doing here. That's why we frame 326 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: things this way, Dave, even in forensics, you know, unless 327 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: we can confirm it, because what they're doing is when 328 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: the defense says this, and look, you know, when we 329 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: get up on the stand as investigators and experts, they 330 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: ask us to read off the list. They say, you know, 331 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: they ask us what all our credentials are are how 332 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: many other times you've been qualified as an expert? And 333 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: that validates you. Well, all the defense has to do. 334 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: They can validate you all they want to in void Deer, 335 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: But all the defense has to do is to look 336 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 1: and say, oh, so you didn't go to medical school, 337 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: so you're not actually a blood expert, now are you. 338 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: And by the way, you're calling this blood and you 339 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: didn't even confirm that it was blood. Let me ask 340 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: you something, can russ look like blood under certain circum 341 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: That's a yes or no question, Investigator Morgan, Yes it can. 342 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: Can can dry chocolate look like blood? Well? Yes or no? 343 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: It's simple yes or nokay. Aren't you capable in What 344 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: they're saying by doing that is that they're diminishing you 345 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: in the eyes of the jury. They're trying to make 346 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: you look like a fool. And trust me, chief among sinners, 347 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: I've looked like a fool up on the stand. You 348 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: learn these lessons. So when the officers are looking at 349 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: this and they have to do an official report, they 350 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: cannot say that this is definitively blood. But yeah, we 351 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: do wink and nod about it, But that doesn't mean 352 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: that we're going to include it an official report until 353 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: we get somebody out there that can do a presumptive test, 354 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: and the most probably the one that people are most 355 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: familiar with, is something called the Castle Meyer test. That's 356 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: been around for years and years. So if you have 357 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: an area that you suspect is blood, you can essentially 358 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: treat that area and make an application there and you'd 359 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: simply look at it. It's what's called a qualifying test. 360 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: You can say, yes, definitively, this is blood. I can't 361 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: say necessarily whose blood it is, but I can say 362 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: this is blood at that point in time. And then 363 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: there's like multiple different steps that you go through. You 364 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: can go all the way to blood typing and take 365 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: that all the way out to DNA, which eventually happens 366 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: in this case. But if you're very very careful. 367 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: Here the officer notices things that he believes could be blood, 368 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: and what else did they find Joe? Forensically speaking, what 369 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 2: else did the officer observe? 370 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: Well, obviously you have these red stains that are about 371 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: and these are and this is this is the first 372 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: blush of the officer. This is before the let's see 373 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: how can I frame this? This is before the actual 374 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: forensic scientists get out there to do their thing and 375 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: see USI before they get out there. And look, if 376 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: I've if I'm a police officer and I've been tasked 377 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: with going into a house, maybe on a welfare check, 378 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: you know you're looking for a missing person. Look, that's 379 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: that's what this is about at this point in time. 380 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: In this case, you've got a missing mother out there. 381 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 1: You want to find her. And if you take a 382 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: look a gander around the house, if you will, you 383 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: look around, If you've got what appears to be blood, 384 00:23:52,840 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: you know that something dynamic happened there. And when you 385 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: see the patterns that are left behind. I think that 386 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: one of the one of the real tremendous pieces of 387 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: evidence here that they were able to kind of identify. 388 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: There was actually a blood spot on a faucet, and 389 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: I think that's in the kitchen if I'm not mistaken. 390 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: And why would there be blood on facet Well? Do 391 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: people just bleed in homes? Yeah, people bleed all the 392 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: time in homes. The trick is you have to determine 393 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: whose blood is that, and who you know who who 394 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: does it actually track back to. But here here's the thing, David, 395 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: This is specifically what we were talking about earlier. You 396 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: can have blood like contact traced blood where if you 397 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: if you get blood on your hand, anybody that's ever 398 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: had blood issuing from your body. I'll give you an example. 399 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 2: I get. 400 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: I get bloody noses all the time, all right, and 401 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: particularly this time of year, once really cold out, dry air, 402 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: and and I might wake up in the middle of 403 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: the night my nose is bleeding and I've got blood, 404 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, on my pillow. Well, that's not a real 405 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: dynamic deposition of blood. That's a transfer, and so it'll 406 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: be smeared. The droplets will have no evidence of real 407 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: velocity to it. But in Jennifer's case, there is an 408 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: image that was put up by Daily Mail. And when 409 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: Daily Mail put that image up, I had this light 410 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: bulb that went off and I knew that something horrific 411 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: had happened in that garage. And this is why there 412 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: are two droplets that are on the floor, and these 413 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: are dynamic droplets. That means that there is movement with them. 414 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: If you will just think about almost like a tear 415 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: drop shape. When you think about a tear drop kind 416 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: of how it falls, free falls, you know, like this, 417 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: and you get this image. I think it's more art 418 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: than it is science. But it's because liquid falls through 419 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: the air in a perfect sphere. I don't know if 420 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: people realize that blood in particular does when it falls. 421 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: It's falling in a perfect sphere before it strikes the ground, 422 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: and it makes this pattern. But with this, it's got 423 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: a tear drop pattern. And there's two blood droplets that 424 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: are lying parallel to one another. The more narrow end 425 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,719 Speaker 1: of the blood droplet gives you the indication of movement. 426 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: It's almost like you have got an arrow pointing in 427 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: the direction of which the blood was flying. And Dave 428 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: on the floor of that garage, there were two blood 429 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: droplets and they are pointing in one particular direction. To me, 430 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: that's an indication of violence because those blood droplets are 431 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: what we would classify as low velocity blood spatter patterns. 432 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: And you know, and the way we classify these patterns 433 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: is that low velocity is like hands feet. Just imagine 434 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: how much energy could you generate with your bare hands 435 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: if you're striking somebody. Okay, you could do it with 436 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: a knife that would be cast off. Okay, medium velocity, 437 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: maybe a bat you generate our lead pipe, you generate 438 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: that kind of velocity, and high velocity the particulate bits 439 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: of blood they are left behind. That's going to happen 440 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: with a firearm. Okay, it almost becomes like an aspirit. 441 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: It's very tiny, so that this is low velocity that 442 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: you're seeing in this image. And Dave, I think, I 443 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: think that something violent happened to Jennifer Doulas on the 444 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: floor of that garage, and something generated that blood and 445 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: deposited it on the floor, perhaps adjacent to where she 446 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: had been laying. If you figured that the human body 447 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: holds I don't know, and a lot of it's deepended 448 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: upon the size, your size, and the age development male 449 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: versus female, but roughly perhaps just under two gallons of blood. 450 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: If if you are traumatized and your heart continues to beat, 451 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: you're going to have a huge amount of deposition on 452 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: whatever surface you're lying upon or standing upon. Here here's 453 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: the thing when if you sustain a head strike, the 454 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: head is probably the most vascular area. It is the 455 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: most vascular area in the human body. That's why you know, 456 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: like our if we popped in the mouth and get 457 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: a bloody lip or our nose, it seems like it 458 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: won't quit bleeding. And for anybody out there that's ever 459 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: had blood impact to your head and you've you know, 460 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: down here in the South, they uh, you know, mc 461 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: granny would say, or you're gonna bust your head wide open. 462 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: And if you split your head open, you bleed profusely. 463 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily mean that it's a lethal trauma. But 464 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: your head is so vascular. If you don't stem that bleeding, 465 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: you're gonna bleed all over the place. 466 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: But in the case of what they found in the garage, Joe, yeah, 467 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 2: can you tell how long the blood has been there? 468 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 3: Yeah? 469 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: You can. And one of the fascinating things about blood 470 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: is that when you first come upon it, if you 471 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: have a wet sample out there, and particularly when you 472 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: see a big pool of blood, one of the fact 473 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: sasty things that happens is this, before the blood actually dries, 474 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: you'll begin to see the blood and the serum separate 475 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: from one another, and so you'll have on one side. 476 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: You know, blood is not a it is a multi 477 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: component substance. So you know you've got a lot of 478 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: ingredients that go into blood. You've got RBC's red blood cells, 479 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: you got white blood cells, you got plasma, and so 480 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: you know you've got all of these elements of blood, 481 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: but the serum will actually separate off of the blood. 482 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: So you'll have this kind of clear yellowish liquid on 483 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: one side of a pool of blood, and then you'll 484 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: have what looks like the RBC's have migrated to one side. 485 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: You see that that's generally with like a really big grouping, 486 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: and that takes that that would take a couple of 487 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: hours for that to actually begin to occur. But as 488 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: the blood dries it it takes on a specific appearance 489 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: deepended upon how long it's been out all right. 490 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: Now, the reason we're talking about Jennifer Dulo's disappearance and 491 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 2: the trial of Michelle traconis because they believed that they, 492 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: being officials, believed that there was enough evidence to prove 493 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: that Jennifer Dulos died and that voters that they off. 494 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 2: They believed that Votus Dullos planned it all out, rode 495 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 2: his bike to Jennifer Dulas's home, waited light and wait 496 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: in her garage, beat her to death at her home, 497 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: and then loaded her body, either dead or dying, into 498 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: her suburban. Drove the suburban a couple of miles away 499 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: near a lake, where he then transferred her body from 500 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: the suburban into a truck he borrowed without permission from 501 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: a coworker or at one of his employees rather and 502 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 2: then through the bike in the back of the truck. 503 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: He'd put the bike that he rode to Jennifer Dulo's house, 504 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: he put it in the suburban with her body. He 505 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: transfers her body and the bike leaves the suburban park 506 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: to abandoned. He then drives in the truck, the pickup truck, 507 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: to wherever it is that he is going to dispose 508 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: of Jennifer Dulo's body. And I have to say that 509 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: we have not located her body at this point, and 510 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: so police are utilizing They're getting information from the house, 511 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: from the garage, the ten rolls of unaccounted for paper towels. 512 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: They also have been able to look at the seat 513 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: in the truck that he borrowed without permission from an employee. 514 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 2: And forensically speaking, Joe, I'm asking, can they they being investigators? 515 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: They're using everything from you know, the blood testing in 516 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: all these different areas, but they're also investigators have been 517 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: able to track his movements that a photos Dulos using 518 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 2: cameras all around town, security cameras and things like that. 519 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: And that's why Michelle Traconas is on trial because later 520 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 2: in the day, the day that Michelle that Jennifer Dulos 521 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: goes missing, Dula, Photus Dulos and Michelle Traconis are seen 522 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 2: driving around town dropping off bags of trash in public 523 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: trash cans, receptacles, and as police were investigating, they went 524 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: and found some of these trash bags and determined that 525 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: they had Jennifer Dulo's DNA. I'm speed dialing this because 526 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: that's what the that's what police say happened, and that's 527 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 2: what they're trying to prove in court that Michelle Traconas 528 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 2: was She's seen on video with Photus Dulos dropping these 529 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: bags of trash. But how are they going to prove 530 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: Joe that it was Potus Dulos that did the killing 531 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: in the garage, that it was Photos Dulos that transported 532 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 2: her body, that it was Photos. 533 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: I mean, was it not his employee? What if his. 534 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: Employee, who by the ways Dolos had had a haircut, 535 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: had shaped had similar to the employee who owned the 536 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 2: truck that he borrowed. I mean, could is it not 537 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 2: possible that an employee if Photostlas had a thing for Jennifer, 538 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: and he went and killed her. 539 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: And I think that if if photos Dulos, who has 540 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: deprived us of his presence now in his life, you know, 541 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: he that if if we were having his trial, I 542 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: think that that's one of the points that would be argued. 543 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 1: What you know, they they arrested Dulo's foid us, Yes, and. 544 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 3: He committed suicide the day after he was charged with 545 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 3: their murder. 546 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: He did. And you know, one of the things that's 547 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: really fascinating, Dave, that you don't see a lot. They 548 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: consulted the medical examiner to render an opinion about this, 549 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: and it was fascinating. And and here here's essentially what 550 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: the medical examiner came up with. Keep in mind, this 551 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: is absent a. 552 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 3: Body, so something happens where they consult. 553 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: No, they do, they will, but it's really hard for 554 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: an me to make a determination. But my god, Dave, 555 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: they were so specific. This is what they actually said 556 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: the medical examiner. Now this is the medical examiner stating 557 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: this categorize the incident involving Jennifer as homicidal violence and 558 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: also stated that would likely include some combination of traumatic 559 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma or blunt force injuries such as you're 560 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: ready for this bludgeoning, beating, and or sharp force injuries 561 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: such as stabbing or slashing. So that without that, how 562 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: do you draw that conclusion? I go back to the 563 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: blood deposition. If if you're talking about dynamic blood deposition, 564 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: the only thing that would be, in my estimation, the 565 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: only thing that the emmy could draw upon unless they 566 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: have evidence of how much are what volume of blood 567 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: was spilled on the scene and then attempted to be 568 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: have been cleaned up? Because you remember I talked about 569 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: the volume of blood that we carry around in our bodies. 570 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: There's a term, and I may have said this before, 571 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: but there's a term that's used in forensic pathology that 572 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: states the volume of blood is in the volume of 573 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: blood that is deposited at the scene is incompatible with life. 574 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: So if you show up at a scene and you've 575 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: got a huge volume of blood at the scene, the 576 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: medical examiner could opine that if this much of blood 577 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: is outside of somebody's body, they ain't with us anymore. 578 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 3: That makes sense, But how do they know that? Here 579 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 3: we got two droplets. 580 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: I know exactly, So that brings us to this idea 581 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: that perhaps they have evidence of some kind of vast 582 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:16,720 Speaker 1: cleanup that took place relative to this along with the 583 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 1: velocity at which this blood was deposited, that it's only 584 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: going to arise if you have this kind of deposition 585 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: that is, from a velocity standpoint, is consistent with low velocity, 586 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: because that's the only way you come up with this 587 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: idea of slashing. If you draw a knife across somebody, 588 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: if you if you plunge a knife into somebody and 589 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: you draw it back off, you cast it off. You 590 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: can cast off. Just imagine sticking a paint brush into 591 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: a paint can and throwing it over your shoulder, you know, 592 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: flipping the brush over your shoulder, that's cast off. Or 593 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: if somebody is being impacted where they're down on the 594 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: floor and they're being beaten or kicked, okay, which is 595 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: horrific to think about this mother of five, you know, 596 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: in this position on the floor. It's it's quite it's 597 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: it's quite the thing when you begin to, you know, 598 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: kind of consider what are they going to do with 599 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: this case with traconas because they're they're talking about her. 600 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: Her trial really at its at its core, comes down 601 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: to her aiding Foydus do loos in destruction of evidence 602 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: and that that's that's what they're actually, you know, kind 603 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: of saying here. So I don't know how. I'm hoping 604 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: that as this trial progresses, we're going to hear more 605 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: about the bloodstained evidence, and not just in We've already 606 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: had a DNA expert that has come on to the stand, 607 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: has talked about the probability, and they've excluded everybody. They 608 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: did cheek swabs on all of the kids. Uh, Floyda's Doulos. 609 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: You're the employee that you mentioned. They got him, They've 610 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: got Lauren. They had to do because you have to exclude, 611 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: you know, the blood that you have present. 612 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 2: I mentioned that employee just because those as Joe and 613 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: I both are told you earlier the trials ongoing of 614 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 2: Mitchell Traconus, Uh, the employee that owned the truck that 615 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 2: did not give Dulo's permission to use the truck. Uh 616 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,879 Speaker 2: Thas actually took it twice. He took it two separate times, 617 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 2: and police have said that he that Delos cut his 618 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 2: hair to match this employee so as to see uh 619 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 2: if on cameras around town. Uh, they actually see Doulos, 620 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 2: but from a distance. Hey, man that could be the employee. 621 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 2: That's why I said that earlier. You know, the defense 622 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 2: is going to hang on that. But Joe, would they 623 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 2: be able to get they being investigators, are you going 624 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 2: to be able to get I know we have blood 625 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 2: in the garage. Are we going to have blood or 626 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 2: some type of DNA in the suburban that's going to 627 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:54,280 Speaker 2: be traceable? 628 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 3: Are we going to have it in the front of 629 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 3: the truck? 630 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 2: And because we know that, we know that Doulo's actually 631 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: he took the truck that he borrowed without permission and 632 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: washed it out, scrubbed the floor, the seat. Would DNA 633 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 2: or would some type of genetic material from the victim here, 634 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 2: Jennifer Dollas rest in that passenger seat if he put 635 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 2: her in there? Would they be able to find out? 636 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 1: Well? 637 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 3: They could. 638 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 1: The most essential thing from a forensic standpoint is that 639 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: you categorize that deposition. Was it something that was generated 640 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: if they come across DNA there? Okay, what type of 641 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: DNA sourcing are you referring to? Is it blood deposition 642 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: like from a blood droplet, Was it a sneeze, was 643 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,720 Speaker 1: it hair? Was it touched DNA? Where you've got partial 644 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: strand that's left behind. Did I don't know, maybe Jennifer 645 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: Dulas was prone to nosebleeds for all we know. You know, 646 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 1: we don't know, but you can. You can if it 647 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 1: is her DNA that is there, you can specifically identify 648 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: it to exclude all others, you know, even her children. 649 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 2: You can do that so they'll be able to trace 650 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,399 Speaker 2: her from the time that allegedly, well, no, Jellus is dad. 651 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 2: But the police saying that you know he loaded her 652 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,879 Speaker 2: into the suburban, they'd be able to find out where 653 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 2: he laid her in the suburban, right. 654 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: They could, And a lot of that would have to 655 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: go to a if you if you take a body 656 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: that is producing or has produced, and is wet from blood. 657 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: I have been on scenes before where bodies have been 658 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: moved from their initial position and you can actually see, 659 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,479 Speaker 1: you can at least project in your mind that this 660 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: looks like this person may have been laying in a 661 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: fetal position. There's a huge deposition up here in a 662 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: smaller area that might be where the head rested. There's 663 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 1: an absence of blood here, but down here there's more, 664 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: and you can kind of visualize in your mind what 665 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: position the body would but it would have to be 666 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: such a copious amount of blood in order to make 667 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: a determination like that, And you know you have to 668 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: look at also a typical why would Okay, I understand 669 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: your blood could be in the front seat of a vehicle. 670 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 1: Going back to my example of a nosebleed. Yeah, I've 671 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: had a nosebleed driving down the road. Is it beyond 672 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 1: the realm of possibility? I could have it on an armrest, 673 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: even on the steering wheel. You know, it's reaction you 674 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,800 Speaker 1: touch it like that. But why if it's safe, for instance, 675 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: if it's in the back of the truck, why would 676 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: blood be there, Why would her blood be there? And 677 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: why would it be this huge volume of it? 678 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 2: So that bets That's why I'm getting to the volume. 679 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 2: How do you tell how much? 680 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: You really can't there's no way, and people have tried 681 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: to do this before because a lot of it is 682 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: depended upon how degraded the sample is the surface that 683 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: is on. Because if you're talking about carpet, for instance, 684 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: if you're on a carpet surface, dude, there's no way 685 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: to assess a volume of blood in carpet. There's I 686 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 1: don't know, because it would leads through that it would be. 687 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: It would stain the top the actual carpeting, then the 688 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 1: underlying not the mat below it, but just where the 689 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: carpet is woven through, then to the underneath matt and 690 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: then onto whatever subflooring there is beneath the carpet. So 691 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,760 Speaker 1: you couldn't assess it that way. And even with dried blood, 692 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: let's say, if it was on concrete or on on hardwood, 693 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: I don't think that you could get a rive at 694 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: a reasonable volume. The one way you could actually have 695 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: a guess at it, and maybe this is what the 696 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: EMMY was doing in this particular case, was to say, Okay, 697 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: they have got a enough blood stains, or they have 698 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,399 Speaker 1: there's an indication that this blood was widespread. Given that, 699 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: I can kind of get an idea that this was 700 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: a lot of blood and there's a high probability that 701 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: it would in fact be incompatible with life. But you know, 702 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 1: we don't. We're at a distinct disadvantage here today because 703 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: Floyd is Doulos is dead and you know he and 704 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,360 Speaker 1: for folks that are not that familiar with the case, 705 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,839 Speaker 1: we have to understand he took his own life by 706 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 1: carbon monoxide association. He was found within a garage and 707 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: in the front seat of a vehicle slumped over. And 708 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: here's here's something that the listeners might not know. He 709 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: left a note. And it's not that you don't know 710 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: that he left a note, it is did you know 711 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,800 Speaker 1: that notes in suicides? And in the medical legal world, 712 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: we investigate more suicides than we do homicides. They outpace homicides, 713 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: so generally two or three to one. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah, 714 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: there are more suicides that occur than homicides. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, 715 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: you know. And do they all leave a note? No, 716 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 1: That's what I was going to say. For in my experience, 717 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 1: I can't speak to all of my colleagues all over 718 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: the country. This is my little slice of the pie, 719 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: Joe Scott's. I'll own it. It is the exception as 720 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: opposed to the norm. And I've often when I teach 721 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 1: suicide investigation, I tell the investigators of students i'm teaching, 722 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: I say, it would seem to me at least that 723 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: with this idea of taking one's life, it's almost like 724 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 1: you're standing over on a big rock ledge over a 725 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: river and you're either going to do it or you're 726 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: not going to do it. And some people just take 727 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: the jump, and they have to build up the courage. 728 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,840 Speaker 1: And you know, I've have people that have gotten really 729 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 1: drunk before they did it, that were high on drugs. 730 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,760 Speaker 1: Many of them will not write a note. But then again, 731 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: I actually had a lady many years ago that had 732 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: those do you know those black and white composition notebooks 733 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: that you can buy that are actually bound with a spine. Dave, 734 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: she had thirteen of those, thirteen front and back page, 735 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: and they were all a suicide note that had gone 736 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: on and on and on and on and on. It 737 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,879 Speaker 1: would seem, you know, she's just pouring her soul out 738 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: in these things. And I read through the entire you know, 739 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: through this entire collection. I did have that happen several times. 740 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,319 Speaker 1: But to have someone leave a note, many times, it's 741 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: like they've been the psychiatrist referred to it as suicidal ideation. 742 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,440 Speaker 1: They will have this ideation, this thought of suicide, and 743 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,000 Speaker 1: finally they decide to act on it. But Dula's took 744 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 1: the time to write the note, and I find this 745 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:02,320 Speaker 1: is really really interesting. In the note, he actually talks 746 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 1: about how and this is paraphrasing that traconas had nothing 747 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: to do with Jennifer's disappearance. But he's saying that he's 748 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 1: not guilty of this, right, And he's also saying that 749 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:19,959 Speaker 1: his lawyer friend, who by the way, has apparently been 750 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: caught up in this and his charged he allegedly dug 751 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: a grave dave as part of this little confederacy that 752 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:33,239 Speaker 1: their alleging took place. He says he had nothing to 753 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,320 Speaker 1: do with it, and that they are not to harass 754 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 1: his family or his friends and all this stuff. And 755 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: so by virtue of that bit of knowledge, you began 756 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,760 Speaker 1: to think about this and it's okay, Well, you're saying 757 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 1: that Traconas had nothing to do with Jennifer's disappearance. How 758 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,960 Speaker 1: do you know she's the other woman? For all I know, 759 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: she's jealous and. 760 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 2: We have radio dropping trash that night that we know 761 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 2: had some of her d Jennifer's DNA on these rags 762 00:47:58,080 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 2: that had blood on them that were dumped in track. 763 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,759 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, video yeah. 764 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,360 Speaker 1: And he you know, he takes his life by carbon 765 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: monoxide assixiation, which again is is it happens? It's it's 766 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: something that's common or for over the years, particularly in 767 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,280 Speaker 1: urban areas where you have a garage. This this happens. 768 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,120 Speaker 1: I've had people that have run pipes into cars. I 769 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 1: had a guy that actually had a car, had a truck. 770 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: He went to Great Links in a tragic case. But 771 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: he had had a truck that was up on blocks 772 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: dave that was outside of his window, and the engine 773 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,440 Speaker 1: ran and he used a glass cutter to cut a 774 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 1: hole in his bedroom window, ran a drier vent pipe, 775 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: a really long one, the kind of expandable ones, into 776 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: the hole in the window, and taped off his tailpipe. 777 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 1: With this thing sealed, it went into this home, laid 778 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,839 Speaker 1: down the bed with the cremaines, which are the you know, 779 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: the cremator remains of both his wife and daughter laying 780 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 1: on the bed next to him, and assixiated himself on 781 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:10,880 Speaker 1: the bed. So I've seen this before. Some people choose 782 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: to go out this way. But here's the problem. Any 783 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: knowledge that we might have of what actually happened to 784 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:27,800 Speaker 1: Jennifer Doulos, I think at least may have died along 785 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: with Floydus Dulos. My hope is is it through forensics, 786 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:42,879 Speaker 1: perhaps we can resurrect her and have Jennifer tell her story. 787 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Backs