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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for Session three, p. Fifty two of

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Leslie Gray Streeter and I'm on the Therapy for

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Speaker 3: Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking my experience

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Speaker 3: as a black widow.

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Speaker 1: One of life's most profound and devastating experiences can be

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Speaker 1: losing a spouse. It's a journey that can be marked

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Speaker 1: by sorrow and the reshaping of one's identity. But it's

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Speaker 1: not one you have to go alone. For today's episode,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by author, veteran journalist and speaker Leslie Streeter.

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Speaker 1: Leslie is the author of the memoir Black Widow, a sad,

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Speaker 1: funny journey through grief for people who normally avoid books

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Speaker 1: with words like journey in the title. A native of Baltimore, Maryland,

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Speaker 1: she and her work have been featured in The Water

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Speaker 1: Shington Post, CNN, The Atlantic, and more. During our conversation,

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Speaker 1: Leslie and I discussed the shifting stages of grief in

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Speaker 1: the aftermath of losing a spouse, how having a village

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Speaker 1: aided her through the death of her spouse, and what

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Speaker 1: our society gets wrong about helping loved ones through a

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Speaker 1: grief experience. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: tpg in session or join us in the sister circle

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Speaker 1: to talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: So thank you so much for joining us today, Leslie.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. So I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you could take us to the beginning of your

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Speaker 1: journey as a widow. Can you talk to us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about those initial days after losing your partner.

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Speaker 3: The initial days were I can't see my face, but

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Speaker 3: it's the face, is what it is. Because it's like

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Speaker 3: anytime any of you who've gone through loss, sudden loss, particularly,

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Speaker 3: it's just you're trying to survive your Bodi's in survival mode.

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Speaker 3: There's a sense of all of the stages of grief

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Speaker 3: all at once that you're in denial, you're in shock

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Speaker 3: here in everything. And I guess it was just knowing

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Speaker 3: that I had no idea what was about to happen

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Speaker 3: in any moment, but also knowing that I had to

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Speaker 3: keep it going, which don't always work in the same way,

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Speaker 3: but they.

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Speaker 2: Kind of have to.

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Speaker 3: That survival butting the head against you wanting to just

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Speaker 3: shut down is a constant and as you know, with grief,

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Speaker 3: there is no linear stage. You could be a one,

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Speaker 3: stage one, and then stage seven and then back to three,

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Speaker 3: and then roll around in five and seven all over again,

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Speaker 3: and it can all happen at once, and it's just

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Speaker 3: your body trying to keep you alive while protecting you.

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Speaker 3: And it was really disorienting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine. Can you talk to us

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Speaker 1: about what support was like for you. Who were the

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Speaker 1: people that you were able to lean on in those

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Speaker 1: first couple of days.

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Speaker 3: I have the most amazing village of people, And I

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Speaker 3: know village at this point has become so used as

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Speaker 3: to become trite, but I had immediately when it happened.

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Speaker 3: One of my best friends and her husband came over

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Speaker 3: and she drove me to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: And I had a friend.

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Speaker 3: That friend's husband and my neighbor who I was supposed

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Speaker 3: to go walking with that morning, came over and stayed

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Speaker 3: with my son. I had my aunt, who was a

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Speaker 3: pastor in DC, who prayed with us as we drove

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Speaker 3: to the hospital. I had my husband's cousins who drove

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Speaker 3: in from Fort Lauderdale from that area about an hour

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Speaker 3: or so drive depending on where they were, to say

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Speaker 3: goodbye to him in the hospital, and then took the

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Speaker 3: rest of the day off. It was one of that

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Speaker 3: cousin's birthdays, and he took the day off to be

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Speaker 3: with us. My sister, who was down in about three

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Speaker 3: hours from Baltimore it happened. She woke her husband up

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Speaker 3: and said, grabbing the credit card, I gotta go. My

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Speaker 3: mother was down in five hours, people from work, people

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Speaker 3: just showing up.

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Speaker 2: Every day.

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Speaker 3: I would wander out of my room and there'd be

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Speaker 3: a different person in my house that.

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Speaker 2: I'd go, Oh, that's so nice. Oh it's not a visit,

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 3: Something terrible happened that It was really reassuring in the

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Speaker 3: moments where I felt really discombobulated to know that people

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Speaker 3: were there for me, not just the ones that were

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Speaker 3: physically there, but the ones who were able to talk

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Speaker 3: to me on the phone, the ones who called but

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Speaker 3: didn't stay too long because they knew that it.

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Speaker 2: It's okay if you don't want to talk, and I go,

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Speaker 2: that's great. It was a lot going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I've talked with other people who talked

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Speaker 1: about like having a person be in charge of answering

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Speaker 1: questions for other people and like handling some of those

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Speaker 1: logistics of all of those people. Was there somebody who

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Speaker 1: was able to fill that role for you?

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Speaker 3: My twin sister Lynn, who everything in my life, is

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Speaker 3: that person and I am that person for her, just

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Speaker 3: instinctually for fifty two plus years now assume that role immediately.

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Speaker 3: She was the person that people first of all called

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Speaker 3: because they're like, what's going on. So she was working

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Speaker 3: with other people to say, coordinate who got picked up

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Speaker 3: from the airport, or someone would say what do you

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Speaker 3: want me to handle? And she'd say, can you handle

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Speaker 3: the food that people were bringing? Or can you handle

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Speaker 3: we're talking to the rabbi and Leslie's talking to the rabbi,

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Speaker 3: but can someone else do this? And so she was

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Speaker 3: the team master and all of that. I knew that

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Speaker 3: I could trust her A because she's good at that stuff.

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Speaker 3: B because she knows how to delegate. C Because she's

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Speaker 3: my sister and she wasn't going to drop the ball.

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Speaker 3: It was difficult too, and she went through her own

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Speaker 3: grieving process for my husband because she was very close

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Speaker 3: to him and loved him very much. But at that

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Speaker 3: point it was about me. So she was able to

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Speaker 3: pull it together, just as I have done for other

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Speaker 3: people who have had losses, because at that point, my

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Speaker 3: grief is not the center grief, it's theirs. I say

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Speaker 3: to people all the time when they say my friend

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Speaker 3: lost her husband or someone I know at work, what

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Speaker 3: do I do? And I was like, find out who

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Speaker 3: the coordinator is, don't call them, maybe least something on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: We're so sorry.

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Speaker 3: If other people are doing that, but find out who

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Speaker 3: the coordinator is. Find out who that person is, and

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Speaker 3: that person will tell you what they need.

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Speaker 1: Great suggestion there, So, Leslie, it seems like your experience

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Speaker 1: as a widow is also layered by the fact that

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Speaker 1: your mom was a widow or is a widow. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how she was able

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Speaker 1: to support you in that in anything? That kind of

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Speaker 1: was interesting about that process given her experience as well.

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Speaker 3: I think we can all help each other, even if

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Speaker 3: we don't have the exact same experiences. But I think

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Speaker 3: those friends of yours who do, and God knows, I

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Speaker 3: don't wish widowhood on anybody. I don't want to have

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Speaker 3: that kind of relationship to people. But my mother did.

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Speaker 3: And she had been planning to move down to Florida

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Speaker 3: from Little Rock with us, not with us, like in

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Speaker 3: an apartment, living by herself down the street. And so

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Speaker 3: when it happened, and that day that she showed up

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Speaker 3: at my house and I said, can you just live

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Speaker 3: with me? And she agreed, and I was like, wait.

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Speaker 2: What have we done?

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Speaker 3: There was this a terrible mistake, but it wasn't. It

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Speaker 3: turned out to be amazing. I think that she understood

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Speaker 3: being like I say in my book ground Zero for

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Speaker 3: the grief. She understood because everyone else was hurting when

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Speaker 3: my father died, my sister and I were hurting. Everyone

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Speaker 3: else was hurting. His brother and sister were hurting. But

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Speaker 3: she was the locust of that grief, being his partner

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Speaker 3: and being the every day in the house and being

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Speaker 3: the person who was always around. And I think she

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Speaker 3: understood that's what I would be going through. So she

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Speaker 3: was there to give me as much space or no space,

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Speaker 3: or watch me. She was able to be just the

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Speaker 3: most wise person sometimes by saying nothing.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I think that.

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Speaker 3: My mom was the best person. And I said, I'm

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Speaker 3: sorry that she had that experience, which is the best

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Speaker 3: person to help me, because she understood there be times

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Speaker 3: where I wanted so many people. There be times when

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Speaker 3: I wanted to know people. There were times when I

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Speaker 3: wanted to be physically touched. There were times I was

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Speaker 3: just like, ugh, everybody, get away from me. And she's

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Speaker 3: a social worker at a psych nurse, so she also

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Speaker 3: understood clinically about grief and why that was. And she understood,

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Speaker 3: like I said, unfortunately personally, and she I think kept

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Speaker 3: a lot of people out of my face, which I

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Speaker 3: think is also sometimes the person who handles the meal

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Speaker 3: coordination in those days is also the out of your

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Speaker 3: face person, and that's helpful I have too.

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Speaker 1: MM. One of the feelings you mentioned is feeling discombobulated

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Speaker 1: after the laws, and you know, I think that there

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Speaker 1: are some things that you can expect that you would

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Speaker 1: experience after the laws of your partner. Are there things

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Speaker 1: that came up that you did not expect that you

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Speaker 1: think would be important to highlight?

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Speaker 2: Anger?

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Speaker 3: Man, I you know, and that's part of the stages

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Speaker 3: of grief. But your anger at the person who died,

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Speaker 3: which is something you can't do anything about, and as

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Speaker 3: my therapist said, it was futile in a you'll never

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Speaker 3: win that argument way. You're never gonna go back and

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Speaker 3: have them do it. But you're angry at being left alone.

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Speaker 3: You're angry at are there things you could have done.

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Speaker 3: I would never blame my husband for his death, but

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Speaker 3: he was a forty four year old guy who had

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Speaker 3: some health things he did not take care of, and

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Speaker 3: I felt guilty myself. It was angry at me. Could

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Speaker 3: I have done something? He was a grown man. I

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Speaker 3: did what I could, and once again anger at dead

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Speaker 3: people doesn't really go anywhere, but acknowledging that you have that,

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Speaker 3: I didn't expect that. I didn't expect to feel.

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Speaker 2: Useless, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I think that because I'm a where's the solution person?

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Speaker 3: What can we do? What are the steps? What's the

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Speaker 3: game plan? Kind of person? There were times where I

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Speaker 3: could make all the plans I want and my body

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Speaker 3: wouldn't let me do it. My body wouldn't let me

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Speaker 3: get up, or I was so tired, or I would

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Speaker 3: walk into a room of people and my body would

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Speaker 3: go panic mode, panic notes, shut down, shut down, and

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Speaker 3: I would go, it's been so nice to see you,

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Speaker 3: and I could like count the steps back to where

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Speaker 3: I was going, because I.

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Speaker 2: Was like, I got to get out of here. I

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Speaker 2: gotta get out of here.

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Speaker 3: But I can't flee and run. Can go ah and leave?

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Speaker 3: I mean you could, but I probably did in the

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Speaker 3: first couple of days. Just no one told me that.

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Speaker 3: But I think that the out of control part of it,

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Speaker 3: after being a person who I mean, I was married

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Speaker 3: at thirty eight, almost thirty nine, and to become a

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Speaker 3: parent while I was forty two, and so my life

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Speaker 3: and the design of it and the schedule of it

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Speaker 3: had always been my own. So even giving up that

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Speaker 3: as part of a partnership is a vulnerability when that

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Speaker 3: ends and you're trying to pull all the pieces back

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Speaker 3: to yourself and you.

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Speaker 2: Don't know what you're doing.

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Speaker 3: They're also really tired and really sad and really sleepy.

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Speaker 3: And I was unfortunately a little high on bourbon and

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Speaker 3: pie at times too, so that will add to it

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Speaker 3: the whole self medication peace, and you just feel out

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Speaker 3: of control when you're a controlled person like myself type A.

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Speaker 2: That's really scary too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And the anger, I think is an interesting

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Speaker 1: one because I think people often feel a lot of shame. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's like I feel bad for being angry at my

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Speaker 1: deceased partner, right, And like you said, like you really

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Speaker 1: can't go anywhere with it because there's no conversation that

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Speaker 1: you can have, and so it is often one of

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Speaker 1: those very I think difficult emotions for people to be

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Speaker 1: able to navigate.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and also as women, we are taught to be

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Speaker 3: easy about things, and be forgiving about things, and be

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Speaker 3: accepting about things, and to sublimate how we feel if

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Speaker 3: it makes other people feel uncomfortable. There's that scene in

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Speaker 3: Steel Magnolia's where the Sally Field character has lost her

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Speaker 3: daughter and she runs through the whole gamut in the

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Speaker 3: Grave Heart, where she's yelling, I'm so angry, I can

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Speaker 3: hit something, and she's she knows that she's making people uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: but it's not about them. It's about how she feels

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Speaker 3: at that moment. And it's wonderful to have people who

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Speaker 3: are going to let you be uncomfortable and make them

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Speaker 3: uncomfortable because that's what the moment is about, and the

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Speaker 3: anger and the pain and the just trying to box

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Speaker 3: with God part of it.

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Speaker 2: And I did that too, not physically, but I.

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Speaker 3: Would yell why, and I felt like the Sally Field character.

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Speaker 1: So you've mentioned a couple of times about grief experiences

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Speaker 1: and like whose grief is central and whose grief needs

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Speaker 1: to be tended to right? And I can imagine that's

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Speaker 1: very difficult when you're a mom and have had this loss.

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Speaker 1: So you've lost your partner, but then your son has

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Speaker 1: lost his father. So can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about how you navigated continuing to be a parent and

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Speaker 1: like tending to your grief and your sons at the

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Speaker 1: same time.

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Speaker 3: It was very difficult with us because my child was

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Speaker 3: a baby, he was two, and so his immediate loss

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Speaker 3: is where's Daddy? Because he doesn't understand death. And I

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Speaker 3: say in my book it took a long time for

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Speaker 3: me to be able to say the word dead. I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, he's gone. He can't be here, so

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Speaker 3: he at three, thought he was just someplace else.

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Speaker 2: He't.

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Speaker 3: You can't make sense of these things, and it's hard

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Speaker 3: to say. It's hard to talk about the things, particularly

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Speaker 3: when you don't know if the person will understand. My

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Speaker 3: nieces and nephews were like ten eleven, thirteen, so their

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Speaker 3: loss of him, they.

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Speaker 2: Knew him longer than I did.

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Speaker 3: Like on his side, dealing with their grief was a

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Speaker 3: different grief because they knew him fully as a person.

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Speaker 3: He had been there as far as they knew their

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Speaker 3: entire lives. With my son, it was going back to

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Speaker 3: what is grief, what is loss, and going from there.

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Speaker 3: Now I focus on his grief is of what he

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Speaker 3: doesn't have, because it's very sad he doesn't remember Scott.

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Speaker 3: He was very young, he was not quite too when

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Speaker 3: he died, So his grief is he went through about

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Speaker 3: two years ago. Everyone else has a dad.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a dad, and.

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Speaker 3: He misses not just Scott the person, but he misses

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Speaker 3: the place in his life that a father would have had,

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Speaker 3: and that is terrible to do so. And also I

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Speaker 3: am healed in a way that I was not immediately.

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Speaker 2: After the deaths.

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Speaker 3: So I am now, I think, through therapy and time

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Speaker 3: and all of those things, able to more properly address

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Speaker 3: those things about what my child is feeling and that

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Speaker 3: loss without including mine got it.

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Speaker 1: So that did give you a little bit of space.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like so because he was so young, you

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Speaker 1: were able to maybe more attend to your own grief,

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Speaker 1: and now you're able to support him as he's gotten noticed.

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Speaker 1: EXA Yeah, more from our conversation. After the break, he says,

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Speaker 1: it's nice to see you're still with us. What do

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Speaker 1: you think about the conversation so far? Did anything come

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Speaker 1: to mind? Or are you just listening and learning that

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Speaker 1: works too. I want to take a moment to share

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Speaker 1: an affirmation with you, something to add into your wellness kid,

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Speaker 1: or something to pull out when you need a little

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Speaker 1: extra self love and support. Repeat after me, I get

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Speaker 1: to heal on my own timeline one more time, say

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Speaker 1: it with me? I get to heal on my own timeline,

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Speaker 1: use this affirmation when you need it, and remember to

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Speaker 1: take good care. All right, let's get back into our conversation.

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Speaker 1: So you've mentioned therapy a couple of times. I'm curious

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Speaker 1: at what point in your grief journey did you actually

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Speaker 1: start working with a therapist. Was it pretty immediate or

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Speaker 1: did you take some time before and was pretty immediate.

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Speaker 3: Let's see, he died in July, late July, and I

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Speaker 3: think I was probably in therapy by September, having had

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Speaker 3: therapy for or other things before. I understood how important

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Speaker 3: that was living with my mother at that point, who

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Speaker 3: has been a therapist. I understood the need for it.

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Speaker 3: I understood the need to talk about it in a

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Speaker 3: setting that was not going to emotionally hurt the other person, because,

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Speaker 3: like I said, so many other people had lost around

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Speaker 3: my husband dying. They felt his loss in different ways.

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Speaker 3: And to talk to someone whose job it was to

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Speaker 3: listen he was not emotionally attached in the way that

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Speaker 3: I was, was very important and she was great. It

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Speaker 3: was weird because I at the time wrote for the

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Speaker 3: Palm Beach Post and she was in that community, and

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Speaker 3: several sessions in. I said, did you know who I

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Speaker 3: was when I called you? And she said I did?

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Speaker 3: And I knew why you were calling because I'd seen

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Speaker 3: in the paper that your husband had died, and being

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Speaker 3: a professional, she'd said nothing. I wouldn't have known.

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Speaker 2: I just at some point I thought I should ask

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Speaker 2: this question. I would just curre.

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Speaker 3: She did, and the fact that she played it off

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Speaker 3: like she had no idea was great.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. And she was really able to hold

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Speaker 1: space just for you and not her perceptions of it

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Speaker 1: or any of that. Yeah, I'm glad that you had that.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you came from a family, you know,

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Speaker 1: a professional who knew the importance of therapy, and so

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Speaker 1: it sounds like it was a good help for you

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Speaker 1: right there. So what do you think the general public

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Speaker 1: kind of gets wrong about grief and being a widow?

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Speaker 1: Is there something that immediately comes to mind for you?

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Speaker 3: Yes? And I had mentioned before just in general about

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Speaker 3: grief that people because we're Americans and we put things

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Speaker 3: in tight little boxes, on schedules, on steps, we go

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Speaker 3: ABCD healed, everything is wonderful.

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Speaker 2: And if you're not, did you do it wrong? Were

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Speaker 2: you really trying?

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Speaker 3: And like I said, It comes back to the part

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Speaker 3: of us that believes that everyone else's job is to

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Speaker 3: make us feel comfortable and to not be a downer,

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Speaker 3: and to not be the buzzkill that comes into the situation,

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Speaker 3: and to not want to be around people whose experiences

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Speaker 3: might be buzzkilly or what I just made up.

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Speaker 2: But I think that what we get wrong is.

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Speaker 3: That we're not helping that doesn't help the person, and

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Speaker 3: to ask weird questions. I know people who've lost animals

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Speaker 3: and then the first thing I say is you're going

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Speaker 3: to get another dog? And most of the time it's like, no,

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Speaker 3: I'm still grieving bandit, I'm still grieving cocoa or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So when you say to a widow, where are you

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Speaker 3: going to get married again? Or don't worry you'll get

376
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Speaker 3: married again, or never date again, your time is over

377
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 3: you or forever without your person, just the weird stuff

378
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Speaker 3: people say, or when people want to compare it to

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Speaker 3: their divorce or they want to compare it to the

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Speaker 3: loss some other things. I think that we have such

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Speaker 3: a discomfort and talking about hard things and talking about

382
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,280
Speaker 3: uncomfortable things, that we have this unwritten pact with each other.

383
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Speaker 3: If you will agree not to make me uncomfortable about it.

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Speaker 3: I'll give lip surface to it. I'll say sorry for

385
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Speaker 3: your loss. I'll give some weird platitude about God's timing

386
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Speaker 3: and plans and cycles and all that garbage.

387
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Speaker 2: The biggest thing I would say is that doesn't help either.

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Speaker 3: Trite sayings, assumptions about someone's spirituality. The better place that

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Speaker 3: person might be in the journey they have trod all

390
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Speaker 3: that garbage. They're with God now. Even though I believe

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Speaker 3: that that wasn't helpful to me because I wanted him

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Speaker 3: to be with me.

393
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Speaker 2: I wanted my husband next to me on the couch.

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Speaker 3: I wanted him in my child's life, driving to my

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Speaker 3: friend's house in Key West for his birthday. I wanted that.

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Speaker 3: I didn't want him to be sitting at God's right hand.

397
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Speaker 3: God can wait. Is not my thing. And yes, I

398
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Speaker 3: understand people say things because they want to be helpful,

399
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Speaker 3: but I would say to people, would that be helpful

400
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Speaker 3: to you?

401
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Speaker 2: And no, no, no it won't.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's really difficult for people who have

403
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Speaker 1: not had that kind of a loss, right because there's

404
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 1: something that you could think might be helpful, but until

405
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Speaker 1: you're really in that situation, you don't realize that those

406
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: kinds of things are not actually helpful. Now, Yeah, so

407
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Speaker 1: you were already writing. You mentioned that you were writing

408
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Speaker 1: for the newspaper, and you've now written your book. So

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Speaker 1: the book is called Black Widow, A sad, funny journey

410
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Speaker 1: through grief for people who normally avoid books with words

411
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Speaker 1: like journey in the title, which I think is a great,

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Speaker 1: great title. And so I'm curious to hear how writing

413
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Speaker 1: has been helpful in your grieving journey and in your

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Speaker 1: process to healing.

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Speaker 3: My therapist asked me early on if I was keeping

416
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Speaker 3: a grief journal and said, yes, I'm writting a book.

417
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Speaker 1: Oh, you were writing a book.

418
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Speaker 3: Immediately, immediately it came an outlet, and I'll be very honest,

419
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Speaker 3: and some people go, oh, no about it. It was

420
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Speaker 3: an outlet to get it literally out of my brain

421
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Speaker 3: and off of my check. And also I thought, I'm

422
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Speaker 3: a widow. Now I might need the money. I might,

423
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Speaker 3: you know, need to sell a book. I might need

424
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Speaker 3: the income, any extra thing I get. Because when you

425
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Speaker 3: were widowed, you're not just missing your partner and the

426
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Speaker 3: love of your life and your child's other parent. You're

427
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Speaker 3: missing income, You're missing potential support, both financially and otherwise.

428
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Speaker 3: So when I was writing a book and people would say, oh,

429
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Speaker 3: isn't it great Even if you never do anything with it,

430
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Speaker 3: you accomplish something, I was like, no, I also need

431
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Speaker 3: to sell this book, and I needed to also get

432
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Speaker 3: it to other people. I have read so many books

433
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Speaker 3: about grief or so many articles about grief that were

434
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Speaker 3: from the perspective of the healed, that were like the

435
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 3: ten steps that got me through, or this is how

436
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 3: I'm okay, and I was like, am I okay? I

437
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 3: am not okay. I don't know what okay looks like.

438
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Speaker 3: So admitting that I was a mess and that it's messy,

439
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: and once again that those steps to heal, those stages

440
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 3: are not linear and they loop loop loop around, that's

441
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 3: what I wanted to write. So as I made that

442
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 3: clear in my mind, as I wrote, and as I

443
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 3: was in therapy, and as I begin to heal and

444
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 3: time begin to go, all that made more sense to

445
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 3: me because I could see on the page and I

446
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 3: would look back to the first chapter of the book

447
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 3: starts with me standing in the graveyard eating chips with

448
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: my whole family on a golf cart, and I would

449
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 3: read after a couple of years. I would reread the

450
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 3: whole thing from time to time, and lots of things

451
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 3: changed in the book, but that stayed there, and I thought.

452
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 2: I remember that girl.

453
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 3: I remember how lost she felt, and how weird and

454
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 3: hungry she felt, and how lost and just untethered she felt.

455
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 3: And being able to go back to that and read

456
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 3: it and know at different stages I was no longer

457
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 3: in that stage was as helpful as people who keep

458
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: traditional journals because they can go back the stages that

459
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 3: they are at.

460
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: So it was both.

461
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 3: It was something to help my career, It was something

462
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 3: to help other people. It was something to help me

463
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 3: and I think ultimately my son, because I think I

464
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 3: worked out things in the writing, both in the book

465
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 3: and speaking and in writing stories for the newspaper and

466
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 3: writing for a publication called Model Laws. It's a website,

467
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 3: and just exploring my grief in different ways really helped

468
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 3: me talk it out.

469
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: It was all therapy mm in the book.

470
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: I mean, even starting from the title, clearly there's a

471
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: humorous approach that you take with the book that I

472
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: think is very different than on like ten Things that

473
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: idea to get over this loss, and that it tends

474
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: to be a little bit more serious. Can you talk

475
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 1: a little bit about your approach of using humor? I

476
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 1: think naturally it sounds like you're a very humorous person,

477
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: But can you talk a little bit about your use

478
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: of humor in the book and maybe people's response to that.

479
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 3: I think that people that really got the book are

480
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 3: those type of people like me who do process things

481
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: through humor. It is bitter, bitter, desperate humor, and some

482
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 3: of it is absolutely weird Chuckley thing.

483
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 2: That's funny.

484
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: My sister and I were talking this morning. The Emmy's

485
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 3: just had a really beautiful immemorial.

486
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: Presentation, and she said, guess what song it was?

487
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: And it's that song from The Fast and the Furious

488
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: that I'll tell you all about it when I see

489
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 3: you again, which I had banned.

490
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 2: I was like, nobody sing it. I'm gonna find you.

491
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: And then my.

492
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 3: Husband's cousin, whose birthday he had died on, says, I

493
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: have a couple songs I want to play him, like no,

494
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 3: And he pulls up on his phone and it's that song.

495
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: And my sister looks at me and.

496
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 3: I go and she said, because I'm like, I'm disassociating

497
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: to the whole thing like Wade's world, you know, like

498
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 3: not here right now.

499
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 2: It's like and I couldn't kill him because I love

500
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: my cousin. He's great.

501
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 3: He was there, he was grieving, he was doing it.

502
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 3: They were like brothers. And also I'm like, oh, this

503
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 3: song and that's funny. It's funny because it's terrible. It's

504
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 3: funny though, and I process things like that. I think

505
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 3: some people thought it was inappropriate. There was a guy

506
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 3: I don't read good Reads reviews because it's not for us,

507
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 3: it's for the readers, but some guy wrote she said

508
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 3: it was a sad funny journey. I found it neither

509
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: sad or funny, and I was like, I could say,

510
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 3: and I think it's funny, but how could you not

511
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: think it was sad. That's like people are. That's funny too.

512
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 3: Other people's reactions are funny.

513
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 2: I think that's it.

514
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 3: For the most part, I was writing this book for

515
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 3: specific people, including people who understand that their reactions might

516
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 3: be off as off as what society would term what

517
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 3: they would be or how they should be or how

518
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 3: they should react, and that there was just a lot

519
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 3: of messy there and sometimes that, like I said, it

520
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,719
Speaker 3: translates itself into being really funny.

521
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: Got it? Got it more from our conversation after the break.

522
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: So one of the other topics that you address, of course,

523
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: in the book is race, and you know, I'm curious

524
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: to hear can you talk about how you think being

525
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: a black woman impacted your experience of grief and how

526
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: might other black widows have a different experience of grieving

527
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: than people from other races.

528
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 3: I always say mine, I say this in the book

529
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 3: is a black experience and it is not the Black

530
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 3: experience because that does not exist. But I think, for instance,

531
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: those of us really say in the Black Christians say

532
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: Baptist Church, like I was, our outward grief is funerals

533
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 3: or everybody's crying.

534
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: Out loud, oh no baby, why way, Lord why.

535
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: And lots of walking up and down and people catching

536
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 3: the spirit and it's long and whatever.

537
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: When my husband went to my father's funeral, he's like,

538
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 2: why is this so long?

539
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 3: What's what?

540
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: The open casket? What is all this stuff?

541
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: Like the oh, Lord, help them to do this, help them?

542
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 3: And then hey, would you like some chicken? So it's

543
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: a different experience. So I think I wrote from the

544
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: perspective how I had learned to do grief, and I

545
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 3: think that there are not as many books, and they

546
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 3: certainly are now, but at the time, there were not

547
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 3: as many things about that experience we as in within

548
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: finger parentheses, tends to be a homogeneous experience that is

549
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 3: not black. And so when we say this is how

550
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: we grieve, and you see these movies about funerals, read

551
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 3: books about funerals, rey books about grieving, and I'm like,

552
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 3: I don't relate to this at all. So I think

553
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: a lot of people did relate to the outward way

554
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: that we grieve, which is the talking about it and

555
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 3: the crying about it and in some ways over the

556
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 3: top things. Although I think every ethnic or religious tradition

557
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: has food as part of the tradition, it's different. I

558
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 3: set shiva with my husband's family when his mother died,

559
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: and that is a much longer process, but my mother

560
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 3: in law's body was in the ground in twenty four hours,

561
00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 3: so it's a different compartmentalization of it. I think that

562
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 3: because there had not been as many mainstream grief writers.

563
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 3: Now you've got like Tim Bilocke's book From Scratch, which

564
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 3: was a wonderful Netflix movie, and a lot of other

565
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 3: people writing about grief in different ways, both widowhood and otherwise.

566
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 3: And once again, all of our situations are different, but

567
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 3: just even acknowledging it, even acknowledging that we may grieve

568
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: differently because we are black, or a Christian or Muslim

569
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 3: or atheist, in particularly against the backdrop of a different

570
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 3: culture or religion. Just acknowledging that's different, and not trying

571
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,239
Speaker 3: to claim a universal experience or not see ourselves any

572
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 3: quote unquote universal experience and say, well, nobody relates to me.

573
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: It was important to name those things to me.

574
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I'm wondering are there other books or movies

575
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: or things that you've seen that you feel like have

576
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: also done a really good job of really providing context

577
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: to all of the things that could be grief. So

578
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: you mentioned from scratch, Are there other things that have

579
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: been helpful for you?

580
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 3: I and it was. It's not a great show, but

581
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: it had some moments. It was originally on BT plus

582
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: The First Wives Club, the version that they did on

583
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: TV with Jill Scott. There is a scene in the

584
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 3: third season where one of the friends dies and these

585
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: are like bougie people, so I speak bougie as well.

586
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: So the way that there is a.

587
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: I'm making a scene or not making a scene, or

588
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: I'm being passive aggressive in my beautiful hat. That whole

589
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: thing I related to very much in the way that

590
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: there's always a friend who's trying to make it right,

591
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 3: and always a friend who refuses to be right, and

592
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 3: mothers and people with long secrets and stuff and long grudges.

593
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: Everyone has that.

594
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 3: But the way in which the bougie black people among

595
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 3: us can make that happen felt really familiar.

596
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I enjoyed that the whole series, but the third

597
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: season I thought was done well. Thank you for sharing that.

598
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: So you mentioned your or other along in your healing

599
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: journey now and you're able to support your son differently,

600
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: What do you feel like healing does look like for

601
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: you right now? And are there things that still come

602
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: up for you that like trigger this oh immediate sense

603
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: of like grief and lass even still now.

604
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: That's a wonderful question.

605
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 3: I think that part of answering that question is something

606
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: that you were giving me that a lot of people

607
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: don't give her the people, which is they compartmentalize grief

608
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 3: and go, Okay, you're over it, great, bye, and they

609
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 3: don't check back in and they don't come back. So yes,

610
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: it's been almost nine years, which is so crazy to

611
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: me because it feels like fifty years in two days.

612
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: Sometimes it just depending on where I am. I think

613
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 3: what healing looks like has also been exacerbated and enhanced

614
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: by having moved. We were in one house when Scott passed,

615
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 3: and then my mother and I and my son moved

616
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 3: to a different house several months later because my landlord

617
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: were selling the house and we weren't going to buy it.

618
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 3: And then we lived in another place in West Palm

619
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: a house he never saw, so that was very poignant

620
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 3: to me for four years. And then I'm back in

621
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: my hometown in Baltimore and a house that he has

622
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 3: never seen, And I have to think about sometimes. Would

623
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: he have liked this house, Maybe not, but he wanted

624
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: to live right in Baltimore City, probably not. Would he

625
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: have been mad that my son was not playing football,

626
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: because I like his brains in his head, he would

627
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: have had a problem. But also that gives me space

628
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: to remember that I'm not the same Leslie I was

629
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen, and Scott would not have been the

630
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 3: same Scott in twenty twenty four. Then he was in

631
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen. So I had a discussion yesterday with some

632
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: friends about, oh, our husbands, I don't have a husband. Oh,

633
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 3: we could all go out and our husbands could hang out.

634
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 3: I'm like, wah, wah, you know she's standing alone. So

635
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 3: in those moments, I mean, I have whatever moved on.

636
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: Looks like I have dated since then, no one, super seriously.

637
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 3: I have a person that I see currently. I don't

638
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: know if I'm ever going to get married again. Right now,

639
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 3: I don't feel the need to because I'm financially supported

640
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: by me and I have a son who is where

641
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 3: he is. I don't need someone to come back in

642
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: and be both emotionally.

643
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: Responsible for me or my child.

644
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: And this is going to sound people are gonna go,

645
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 3: oh no, but you read so many things about women

646
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: who didn't trust people who come in and take their stuff,

647
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 3: you know, when they remarry or recouple. And my stuff

648
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 3: is my sons. My stuff is not for anybody else

649
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: but me and my son and anyone that we should

650
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: decide to give it to. So I'm not in a

651
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: real hurry to seed that control to anyone. And that's

652
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: a self protection that's good at first. It seemed like

653
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: that was just something I was doing because I was healing.

654
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: No, not really.

655
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 3: It's also because it's a good way to be when

656
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 3: you're now the single parent, the solo parent. Now my

657
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: mother's not here. She got married almost two years ago.

658
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: I moved out, so it's just me and the boy.

659
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: So healing looks like autonomy. Healing looks like being able

660
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: to do certain things. I used to basically hold my

661
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 3: anniversary and the anniversary of my husband's death as like days,

662
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 3: and I don't have to do that anymore. It's nice

663
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: to look at them and say, it would have been

664
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: a nice time, but I don't feel me to. I

665
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 3: don't have to like go away anymore, or like have

666
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 3: a sad thing where I have a drink and eat

667
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 3: a bunch of popcorn or something. You know.

668
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: I don't have to do that anymore. And healing looks like.

669
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 3: A future where I can remember those things but not

670
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 3: be struck down in my place where I'm standing because

671
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: of it.

672
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: Was it difficult for you to leave Florida and move

673
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: to a completely different state.

674
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: Oh no, it was not, And that may have been

675
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: because it happened in twenty twenty, where everything as you

676
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 3: know changed. We had been thinking about moving. My book

677
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: came out in twenty twenty, in March. It came out

678
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 3: about a week before Lockdown happened, which unfortunately had a

679
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 3: detriment to the sales, and that kind of thing that

680
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 3: I had to grieve too. I had agrieve this idea

681
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 3: of what that was going to be. I was supposed

682
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 3: to go to New York and be on this day

683
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 3: show canceled. I was supposed to be in person at

684
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: book conn and New York canceled. I had a small

685
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 3: tour between Miami and New York and Baltimore and New

686
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 3: Orleans done, and I got to do some of those

687
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: things online from a zoom someplace, but it's not the same.

688
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: So the paper that I worked for had been bought.

689
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 3: They started laying people off. We started having furloughs. I thought, Oh,

690
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: this isn't going to be sustainable, and it was just

691
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: time to go. My mother was seeing her now husband,

692
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: who had been her sweetheart at Morgan State University in

693
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 3: the sixties. My grandmother, who passed this year. At that

694
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 3: point was in her early nineties and my mother really

695
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 3: wanted to be close to her. They lived about forty

696
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 3: five minutes away from us, and it was just time

697
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 3: to go, so starting over. I felt weird about leaving

698
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 3: the grave?

699
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: Is that weird? And I've bought the place next to him.

700
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: I don't know if I'll actually be buried there because

701
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 3: I don't live there anymore, So i'd have to have

702
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 3: a funeral there fifty years from now, and who's going

703
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: to go, who's gonna come see it, whatever, So that's

704
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 3: a whole thing, and that's guilt. But I felt guilty

705
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 3: about leaving him. The morning that we moved, I drove by,

706
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 3: I drove brooks By and say goodbye. And I've been

707
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 3: back a couple times to Florida to see him, put

708
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 3: rocks on the grave per Jewish tradition and just talk

709
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 3: to him, how you know, brough us up. But he's everywhere.

710
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 3: I don't need to go there to see him. His

711
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 3: spirit does not live in that box, it does not

712
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: live in that that field. So if I need to

713
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 3: talk to Scott, I can do it sort of anywhere.

714
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: I have guilt sometimes about being happy, and I know

715
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: it's weird for people because I'll go I'm really happy

716
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 3: and They'll look like like I'm not supposed to ever

717
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 3: be again, and I'm not the happy that I was

718
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 3: with him, but it has to be a good happy because.

719
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 2: Otherwise I was forty four years old.

720
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 3: I'm never supposed to be happy for the rest of

721
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 3: my life, and so I've let go a lot of

722
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 3: the guilt about saying things like I am happy.

723
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: So who are you able to have those kinds of

724
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: conversations with? I guess would be your twin. But are

725
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: there people in your circle who like allow you to

726
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: still have those days where you maybe do feel guilt

727
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: around like, oh, I haven't been to visit or what

728
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: does this mean I'm never going to get married? Like

729
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 1: wh who's able to support you in those kinds of conversations.

730
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 3: So many of my close girlfriends, many of them have

731
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 3: lost parents. I've had friends whose partners have not died,

732
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 3: but have had serious physical issues or devastating injuries or

733
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 3: that kind of thing, so they have their own grief

734
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: and also making it okay to say to them, you

735
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 3: can talk to me about that, we're not comparing. I

736
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: relate to those as a couple of those friends, and

737
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 3: I can say it's okay to be sad about the

738
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 3: loss of the life that you thought you were living

739
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 3: and yes, you still hear and you've made it a

740
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: different thing.

741
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: But it's okay to grieve that.

742
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 3: It's okay to grieve the thing that you had before,

743
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 3: the thing that you thought, because we all are in

744
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 3: different ways. And to just listen. I have so many

745
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 3: people who will just listen. And one of my best

746
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 3: friend's current husbands was widowed and so we've bonded over

747
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: that and he sees it from a different perspective. When

748
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 3: I wrote my book, I had written that first chapter

749
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 3: really raw, and then had gone through several rounds of

750
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 3: editing and I think we had edited out some of

751
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 3: the rawness and I said it to him.

752
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 2: He goes, what is this? No, put it back? Put

753
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 2: it back?

754
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 3: And I said to my editor, yeah, okay, so my

755
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 3: other widow friends, I had to put it back, so

756
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 3: I will and it worked. It worked, and he goes,

757
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: that was the point of it was that you were

758
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: like untethered and raw in those first several hours. And

759
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: that's what I'm going to relate to. That's what other

760
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 3: people will relate to, no matter what their journey is.

761
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: So I am so lucky to have those people to

762
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 3: talk to.

763
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 1: So there's somebody who's enjoying our conversation, who has recently

764
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: become a widow. What kinds of things would you offer

765
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: to them? Is there something you wish you would have known,

766
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: or things that you feel like could be helpful.

767
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: What I always say to new widowed people is to

768
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 3: take it easy on yourself.

769
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: And that's harder.

770
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: Sometimes it looks if you do not have the support

771
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 3: that I have, if you don't have the day to

772
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 3: day physical people helping you take care of your kids

773
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 3: or driving you around or doing whatever it is those

774
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 3: physical things that need to happen, not just the emotional things.

775
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 3: And I would say, find one or two people who

776
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: can do that for you, who will let you just be,

777
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 3: who are not gonna let you like drown, but they're

778
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 3: gonna know instinctively when to grab you, when to let

779
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 3: you alone, like my mother did.

780
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: And just to know that.

781
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 3: You don't have to do anything. You don't owe it

782
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: to anybody. Don't want to be a terror and be

783
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 3: like terrible on purpose. But you also don't have to

784
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 3: watch your words in ways. You don't have to like

785
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 3: start a war. But I said to my sister, stop

786
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 3: me from like biting people's heads off. But if I

787
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 3: talk about people badly in my room. I'm gonna do that.

788
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 3: That's gonna happen. I said something.

789
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: She goes leslie.

790
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 3: I go no, no, I get to be sad and

791
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: mad and hate people irrationally right now.

792
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 2: Don't let me like.

793
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 3: Throw things at them at the funeral. But I'm gonna

794
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: feel how I feel. And she goes got it and

795
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: it never happened again. It's like, what are my parameters?

796
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: What am I supposed to do?

797
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 3: And find people who will give you space to grieve

798
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: and who will tell other people let her sleep right now?

799
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 3: Who will answer the phone and go, yes, she'll call

800
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 3: you back. Who will help you make excuses? People would

801
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 3: ask me to do things. They were being very nice.

802
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 3: Sometimes I want to go out, sometimes I didn't, and

803
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 3: my mother was home with my son, and she would say,

804
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 3: if you need to do it, If you don't, just

805
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: say you're tired, you're busy, make of an excuse, or

806
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 3: don't say I just don't want.

807
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: To and don't.

808
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that

809
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 1: with us. So where can we stay connected with you?

810
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: Where can we get a copy of the book and

811
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: follow up with your work? What's your website? As well

812
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: as any social media channels you'd like to share.

813
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, okay, So you can find me at

814
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,959
Speaker 3: I need to update at more or Leslie Grace Streater

815
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: dot com. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram

816
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: and on Facebook as Leslie Gracetreeter. You can find me

817
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 3: at The Baltimore Banner, which is my full time gig

818
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 3: where I write a column two days a week. You

819
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 3: can find me on my podcast that I do with

820
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 3: my town sister, Find Beats and Cheeses.

821
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 2: We are on Spotify and.

822
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 3: Apple and all those other things that you can find

823
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 3: us on. And I have new projects and things happening

824
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 3: that I can't talk about yet right now. But if

825
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 3: you keep up and I'll have to update the website

826
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 3: and you follow me on social media pretty soon you

827
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 3: will figure out those cool things.

828
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: And the book is available where all books are available,

829
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: where all.

830
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 2: Books are available.

831
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: I'm, like I said, it's almost four years old now,

832
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 3: which is weird to me because I feel like I've

833
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 3: missed two years during the crux of COVID. Although we

834
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,720
Speaker 3: are still in COVID, we are still in a pandemic,

835
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: very high rates of it right now, honestly, but you

836
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 3: can find it on Amazon, you can find it on

837
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 3: all of your online situations. And occasionally I'll walk into

838
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 3: a bookstore it'll be there too, and that's fun.

839
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: We will be short to include all of that in

840
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: our show notes. Thank you so much for spending some

841
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: time with us today, Leslie. I appreciate you.

842
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: Thank you.

843
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Leslie was able to join us for

844
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: this episode. To learn more about her and her work,

845
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

846
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three point fifty two, and

847
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: don't forget to text two of your girls right now

848
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: and tell them to check out the episode. If you're

849
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

850
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And

851
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or

852
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over

853
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy

854
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You

855
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.

856
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frida Lucas and Ziria Taylor.

857
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much

858
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

859
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,

860
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: what