Speaker 1: Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. We have heard this word narcissism.
Speaker 1: We've heard the word narcissist, but did you know that
Speaker 1: it's also a personality disorder. Yes, a person can be
Speaker 1: diagnosed by a psychiatrist and it is called narcissistic personality disorder. Well,
Speaker 1: we are going to find out so much more on
Speaker 1: this upcoming episode of Checking In. Everybody today is a
Speaker 1: great day. It's a great day, first of all because
Speaker 1: guess what, we are alive, We are present, we are breathing,
Speaker 1: and we have another day to check in. The Explore
Speaker 1: page on Instagram is amazing because when someone posts thing
Speaker 1: that gets a lot of engagement and attention, it pops up.
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that doctor Jamie Zuckerman is one
Speaker 1: of those folks who popped up on my feed. Started
Speaker 1: following her instantly. She's probably like, what in the world, Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: She's a nationally known expert on narcissism, a narcissistic abuse
Speaker 1: relationship coach, and licensed clinical psychologist, and appears as the
Speaker 1: go to expert for local Philadelphia Fox, CBS, ABC and more.
Speaker 1: Please welcome doctor Jamie Zuckerman to Checking In.
Speaker 2: That was a heck of an introduction.
Speaker 1: Listen, my folks, Honey, Angela and Samantha here at checking In.
Speaker 1: We do not play about our guests.
Speaker 2: I want to come on here every day and here.
Speaker 1: We'll give it to you. We'll copy and paste it
Speaker 1: so the next time you go someplace they have this
Speaker 1: same introduction. You said, you've been sick.
Speaker 2: It was some weird viral vocal I don't even know
Speaker 2: what it was, but it was. It was. It was bad.
Speaker 2: It was bad.
Speaker 1: Were you about to say vocal paralysis?
Speaker 2: They didn't say that specifically, but it was some nerve
Speaker 2: damage like within my throat muscle tip. But for me
Speaker 2: not to be able to talk, I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 2: some people were thrilled, but it was really frustrating because
Speaker 2: I couldn't do my work. So you know, I'm sure
Speaker 2: my kids were happy, but it was it was a
Speaker 2: real pain. So slowly started to come back, but it
Speaker 2: was it was.
Speaker 1: It was nuts. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Like you said, I mean, we use our voice for
Speaker 1: a living, yeah, so when we can't use it for
Speaker 1: one reason or another, especially sickness, that can definitely have
Speaker 1: an effect. You know, how did you go through that.
Speaker 1: You're a psychologist, You're a mental health expert, so I'm
Speaker 1: definitely going to ask how are you, as an expert
Speaker 1: handling something that could literally have a person going going
Speaker 1: to a depression or an anxiety fit, panic attack, anxiety attack.
Speaker 2: Absolutely had anxiety about this, not gonna lie. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, I look at it kind of as it's
Speaker 2: it's a normal response to a very abnormal situation. You know,
Speaker 2: I think it would be weird if I wasn't anxious
Speaker 2: about it, to be honest with you, because in my head,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I have to cancel patients,
Speaker 2: I have to cancel appearances, and what if I do it?
Speaker 2: But then my voice just checks out right in the
Speaker 2: middle of it, because that's what would happen. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it was very anxiety provoking for sure. And then you
Speaker 2: feel guilty because you know, you schedule all these things
Speaker 2: and you have to cancel on people, which I hate
Speaker 2: canceling on people. You know, everybody works hard, everybody changes
Speaker 2: their schedules. So yeah, it's stressful for sure. So anxiety
Speaker 2: absolutely one percent.
Speaker 1: Doctor Jamie, Thank you so much. For saying that anxiety
Speaker 1: is a normal response to something abnormal.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, And.
Speaker 1: Then secondly you said you would have been concerned if
Speaker 1: you didn't have anxiety. Yes, I want to park there
Speaker 1: for a minute. So when a person feels like they
Speaker 1: didn't have anxiety to something that they should normally have
Speaker 1: anxiety with, what would you say is going on with
Speaker 1: that person?
Speaker 2: So I think anxiety gets a bad reputation, so I'll
Speaker 2: start with that. You know, if we didn't have anxiety,
Speaker 2: you and I would cross the street and not look
Speaker 2: both ways. We just wouldn't think too, we wouldn't care to.
Speaker 2: So anxiety keeps us safe, It motivates us, It gives
Speaker 2: us information about our world. Too much anxiety can be debilitating.
Speaker 2: But no anxiety at all when it probably would make
Speaker 2: sense to can give us this kind of numbness or
Speaker 2: this apathy not caring. Really, So if it was something
Speaker 2: significant and somebody wasn't anxious and it wasn't just that
Speaker 2: they had really really solid coping skills, I would look
Speaker 2: at it as avoidance. What are they not really dealing
Speaker 2: with to allow themselves to sit with that discomfort? Are
Speaker 2: they doing something to avoid that discomfort? And that's when
Speaker 2: they like overworking comes in or drinking or you know
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff to avoid what's really going on.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I know men in particular, someone I know,
Speaker 1: you know, suffered something very traumatic and they've just been working, working, working, working, working,
Speaker 1: work and working, and they don't like to say if
Speaker 1: you say how you're doing, they're not going to say,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a little anxious because they believe that
Speaker 1: you're bringing something into existence. That's right, but it's a
Speaker 1: normal thing. I get what they're saying. They want to
Speaker 1: stay in that positive mind.
Speaker 2: Oh so sure we all do, of course. But I
Speaker 2: look at it like this. I look at it as
Speaker 2: like a wave. Right. So if you're in the ocean
Speaker 2: and you see a wave coming, no matter what you do,
Speaker 2: that wave is going to crash, right, no matter what
Speaker 2: you do. So you have two choices. You can stand
Speaker 2: there and be prepared for it to wash over you.
Speaker 2: Put your feet in the ground, stand as you know,
Speaker 2: tall as you can, you know it's coming, Let it
Speaker 2: wash over you and then it's gone. Or you can
Speaker 2: stand there with your hands against it, struggling with all
Speaker 2: your might, using up all your energy, ignoring all the
Speaker 2: stuff you need to do, ignoring your likes, your family, whatever,
Speaker 2: exhausting yourselves, and it's gonna knock you over anyway. And
Speaker 2: it's gonna knock you over, and you're gonna tumble, and
Speaker 2: it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder to
Speaker 2: get up than if you stand there and let it
Speaker 2: kind of crash over you. So either way, you're gonna
Speaker 2: feel it. It's just a matter of how you want
Speaker 2: to feel it.
Speaker 1: That's so good, doctor Z. Yesterday I slammed my hand
Speaker 1: in the door. Oh and could you imagine if I
Speaker 1: tried to act like it wasn't throbbing it it's swollen.
Speaker 1: I even thought it was disfigured a little bit, but
Speaker 1: I think it was just because it was swollen. But
Speaker 1: if someone were to ask me how you're doing in
Speaker 1: that moment, I've gotta be like, my head isn't pain,
Speaker 1: that is throbbing versus oh, I'm good, everything's fine right now.
Speaker 1: There are people who are we really ready for that
Speaker 1: answer though my hand is throbbing, I'm in a lot
Speaker 1: of pain because some people don't know how to handle
Speaker 1: that real truth. We are accustomed to the high pitched
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm okay, everything's fine, correct, and then that
Speaker 1: other person goes on about their business. It's right, you know,
Speaker 1: versus like if I really say, my hand is throbbing
Speaker 1: and I'm in pain, I'm curious to like what that
Speaker 1: other person's response would be to my immediate pain. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, and I feel like too with that. It
Speaker 2: depends on who's around you. If it's somebody that knows
Speaker 2: you well, you know, and they know that you need help,
Speaker 2: they'll they'll maybe keep pushing you to get it right,
Speaker 2: they won't let you go there. But if it's somebody
Speaker 2: who doesn't really know you, and you're giving out this
Speaker 2: vibe that you're good, you don't need anything, you're great,
Speaker 2: you're not going to get the help and it's probably
Speaker 2: difficult for you to, you know, for people to ask
Speaker 2: for help, but then you become more isolated.
Speaker 1: It's so good, that's so good. We have had another
Speaker 1: doctor or two we've discussed narcissism on checking in, but
Speaker 1: you know, it's good to go deeper and deeper, especially
Speaker 1: with someone where yes, you are a licensed clinical psychologist,
Speaker 1: but you decided you're kind of just this is your
Speaker 1: specific area of expertise in practice MM hmm.
Speaker 2: I mean I still obviously see people with anxiety because
Speaker 2: you actually comes from that. Yeah, okay, it's kind of
Speaker 2: hard to separate the two.
Speaker 1: Okay, So relationship issues, depression, other mood disorders. You also,
Speaker 1: in private practice still see people that are that grief
Speaker 1: loss exactly.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, but this has kind of become Yeah, I
Speaker 2: guess a bit of a specialty over the years. So
Speaker 2: it's fascinating. I think it's and I think it's very
Speaker 2: much needed. I'll say, okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: Is it from personal experience or was it a lot
Speaker 1: of core people coming to you and you're like, there's
Speaker 1: a common thread of about twenty people I'm seeing that
Speaker 1: are dealing with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ah, okay, So it was a combination of things.
Speaker 2: One was and we went into private practice many years ago.
Speaker 2: I would see this this pattern exactly like you said,
Speaker 2: this pattern of people mostly women that I was seeing
Speaker 2: at the time, but men also coming in with this
Speaker 2: same almost blueprint of relationship issues, and you know, and
Speaker 2: I would listen to it and I would hear it,
Speaker 2: and you could tell it was narcissism. But in our minds,
Speaker 2: the way we were training narcisism is so rare. It's
Speaker 2: so rare, it's like such a small percentage of the population. However,
Speaker 2: it's also because nobody with narcissic personality sort of steps
Speaker 2: foot in treatment raally maybe one percent. They never really
Speaker 2: make change, even if they go to therapy. It's extremely
Speaker 2: short lived. The change is very is very minimal, and
Speaker 2: so the patterns just keep going and going going. So
Speaker 2: I was seeing a lot of women who are experiencing
Speaker 2: these relationships, and then I just started kind of getting
Speaker 2: into it a little bit more on Instagram and on
Speaker 2: social media, and the feedback I was getting was one
Speaker 2: of like like a oh my god, this is my life,
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. And I realized how many people
Speaker 2: this story they felt like was theirs. It was the
Speaker 2: same story with different people. And then I personally, my closest,
Speaker 2: closest friend at this time was going through a divorce
Speaker 2: with somebody who was a narcissist, and I unfortunately had
Speaker 2: a front row seat to it, and it was absolutely
Speaker 2: it was horrifying. And so I think that coupled with
Speaker 2: that and the social media awareness of it, it just
Speaker 2: really kind of grew from there and I realized that,
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that was missing was
Speaker 2: almost this preventative medicine in a sense that once you're
Speaker 2: in it, it's really tough to get out of it,
Speaker 2: and it's a different type of focus. But if we
Speaker 2: can get the information out there to prevent people from
Speaker 2: getting in it in the first place, yes, then I
Speaker 2: feel like we really can make some change. So that's
Speaker 2: where that started.
Speaker 1: That's so good. And because we're hearing this, are people
Speaker 1: using the word wrong yes.
Speaker 2: Okay, yes all the time? And infurious name.
Speaker 1: Now what okay? You can either answer one of them.
Speaker 1: What is a narcissist or what is narcissism? Which one
Speaker 1: is best to answer.
Speaker 2: So narcissism can be like, you know, people have narcissistic traits.
Speaker 2: Let's say, so you know, sometimes let's say you're in
Speaker 2: your area of expertise whatever that may be, right, like
Speaker 2: if you're an athlete or you're a teacher or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, in those moments like you know what you're doing,
Speaker 2: you're in charge, you got it together, like you you're
Speaker 2: the expert, and so you're Narcissistic traits not bad, just
Speaker 2: they come out more it's what makes you kind of
Speaker 2: motivated and good at what you do. The difference is
Speaker 2: that when you're doing something that's not in that domain
Speaker 2: where you know you don't have all the information or
Speaker 2: you know that you need to learn or be objective,
Speaker 2: you're able to reel it back. Right. That's healthy personality style.
Speaker 2: So that narcissism, you know, it has such a bad
Speaker 2: wrap now. But narcissistic, I mean you say somebody is narcissistic.
Speaker 2: People will say someone's narcissistic, excuse my language, just if
Speaker 2: they're like an asshole. But that's like not the same thing.
Speaker 2: Somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder is not the same
Speaker 2: thing as somebody who comes off as cocky or conceited
Speaker 2: or you know, chronic infidelity or you know abuse. It's
Speaker 2: a very specific type of abuse and a very specific
Speaker 2: type of personality style. So you know, saying someone's a
Speaker 2: narcissist really waters down what it really is, and it
Speaker 2: really invalidates the experiences of survivors who have gone through
Speaker 2: narcisstic abuse. I even see this when I post things
Speaker 2: on like TikTok or Instagram about you know, five things
Speaker 2: that a narcissist may do. When somebody will say my
Speaker 2: ex does number one, two and four does that mean
Speaker 2: they're a narcissist? And so I even have to be
Speaker 2: careful when I post things to let people know these
Speaker 2: aren't just behaviors. You don't use any of this to
Speaker 2: diagnose anybody, because any one of us could do any
Speaker 2: of this occasionally. A personality disorder is when this is
Speaker 2: your entire kind of persona in all domains of your life,
Speaker 2: not just with one person some of the time.
Speaker 1: Got it? Got it? So as far as a person
Speaker 1: that has traits, so the traits are they're they're in you.
Speaker 1: Traits are DNA.
Speaker 2: Sometimes not all this time?
Speaker 1: They could be learned these I was about to say,
Speaker 1: certain traits come from our mother and father. Correct, Okay,
Speaker 1: so right, got that? So maybe the a person that procrastinates,
Speaker 1: is that something that was learned or is that a
Speaker 1: trait from the mother and father? I guess if you
Speaker 1: get where I'm going. If a person has narcissistic traits,
Speaker 1: could their parents? Could one of their parents have those traits?
Speaker 2: Yes, but absolutely not necessary to. They could have other
Speaker 2: things where the child, in order to get through their upbringing,
Speaker 2: develop certain strategies in response to those parental traits so
Speaker 2: that they could get through life. So For example, we'll
Speaker 2: use procrastination as an example. So let's say that you
Speaker 2: have a parent who is extremely controlling, extremely perfectionistic, expects
Speaker 2: their child to like, you have all a's, Why don't
Speaker 2: you have all a pluses? You won this? Why didn't
Speaker 2: you win all of them? You know you weigh one
Speaker 2: hundred pounds, Why aren't you weigh ninety nine ouns? So
Speaker 2: just really on you, really strict, so that child could
Speaker 2: grow up thinking nothing they ever do is write right,
Speaker 2: and so they have this constant fear of failure and
Speaker 2: letting people down is swooting, so they may overcompensate for
Speaker 2: that by trying so hard throughout their life to be perfectionistic.
Speaker 2: The problem is is that perfectionists have this horrible fear
Speaker 2: of failure, and so what they do. The reason why
Speaker 2: they procrastinate is because if they don't start it well,
Speaker 2: then they can never really fail because the control was
Speaker 2: on them whether to start it or not. And so
Speaker 2: you end up having procrastination and perfectionism kind of go
Speaker 2: hands in hand. So that would be a perfect example
Speaker 2: of how the parent may not be a procrastinator, but
Speaker 2: by coping with that, the child becomes one. Over time.
Speaker 1: It becomes one. Okay, did you find over time? Because
Speaker 1: everybody that's going to be listening to this, it's probably
Speaker 1: going to be wondering, was I ever in relationship with
Speaker 1: a narcissist? Was my parent a narcissist? I found that
Speaker 1: in one relationship that I was in, I felt like
Speaker 1: what was happening was so hard to explain. I couldn't
Speaker 1: get words to it, but I just recall how it
Speaker 1: made me feel. Now that we're getting some more awareness
Speaker 1: in language, I'm like, God, bless this person's soul. I
Speaker 1: believe underneath all the rubble, I believe they're a good person.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, I wonder if that that was narcissism
Speaker 1: because it's it's almost hard to explain and all I
Speaker 1: all I remember, All I could do was just tell
Speaker 1: people how something was making me feel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very common. And the reason a lot of times
Speaker 2: why you can't explain it for two reasons. One because
Speaker 2: if you actually say it out loud, it sounds absolutely crazy,
Speaker 2: like there's no way, and then you'll doubt yourself like
Speaker 2: that can't be what's happening, Like wow, am I a
Speaker 2: bad person for even thinking that way? That's one, and
Speaker 2: two if it's narcissistic abuse. It's done in such a methodical, calculated,
Speaker 2: purposeful way so that the person they're abusing isn't able
Speaker 2: to even identify what's going on because they're either isolated
Speaker 2: from other people or they're just constantly on edge, constantly confused, scared,
Speaker 2: and so they can't even put it into words, nor
Speaker 2: do they even want to.
Speaker 1: Wow, do you think that there is still so much
Speaker 1: to learn as it relates to the word narcissism, Oh,
Speaker 1: for sure, you feel like, Okay, depression and anxiety, we
Speaker 1: kind of, yeah, but narcissism is just something kind of
Speaker 1: being unearthed.
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, because I think for a long time, you know,
Speaker 2: I think with social media it came out a lot
Speaker 2: more with you know, obviously have to be cautious who
Speaker 2: you're listening to and what information you're getting, but when
Speaker 2: people started sharing their stories, that was when it really
Speaker 2: became kind of more out in the open. Because survivors
Speaker 2: of narcissistic abuse are so isolated emotionally physically that they
Speaker 2: don't ever talk about it, and they question whether it's
Speaker 2: even real or not, and so when they hear other
Speaker 2: people talking about it, it's like this moment of empowerment
Speaker 2: and they have this like epiphany like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: that's my story. Wait, I'm not alone, I'm not crazy.
Speaker 2: So I think hearing other people's stories was so helpful,
Speaker 2: especially during the pandemic. It was so helpful for people
Speaker 2: to hear this stuff because people were home in these
Speaker 2: relationships with no way out. And that's when it really
Speaker 2: started to I think kind of people were talking about
Speaker 2: it more and more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how does a person know if what they're dealing with,
Speaker 1: If what they're dealing with is narcissism and their partner,
Speaker 1: are they just having a bad day?
Speaker 2: Excellent question. So somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder won't
Speaker 2: It won't just be a bad day. They will be
Speaker 2: purposely manipulative, no empathy, a abusive verbally, physically, sexually, financially,
Speaker 2: long term. This isn't something that's just you know, we
Speaker 2: wake up, we're in a bad mood, like we yell
Speaker 2: at our kids, or we yell at our significant other,
Speaker 2: we cancel plans and our friends. That's not this. This
Speaker 2: is a pervasive pattern throughout their entire life, across all relationships. Now,
Speaker 2: they may seem extremely charming in public, they may seem
Speaker 2: extremely giving, philanthropic, They may seem just wonderful, larger than life.
Speaker 2: Everybody loves them in public, but behind closed doors are
Speaker 2: horrifically abusive.
Speaker 1: They just want to be seen giving. Yes, you know,
Speaker 1: they'll show up to your birthday party to let everybody
Speaker 1: feel like it's for show. It's performance.
Speaker 2: It's a performance. It's a facade, it's a performance. They
Speaker 2: are amazing actress. And so here's the thing I'll say.
Speaker 2: You know, people will ask you know, well, how do
Speaker 2: you know? And so if you listen carefully, people say, well,
Speaker 2: they have no control over their anger. They have no
Speaker 2: control over that. Yeah, they do. Narcissists one hundred percent
Speaker 2: do because they can turn it off and be so
Speaker 2: charming and sweet. But then you get home from an event,
Speaker 2: you get home from dinner, and the mask falls off
Speaker 2: and now they are angry, ragey, physically violent. But if
Speaker 2: somebody were to knock on the door, oh hi, how
Speaker 2: are you, and they switch it on and off so fast.
Speaker 2: So somebody doesn't have control over their emotions, is not
Speaker 2: capable of doing that. They know exactly what they're doing,
Speaker 2: so you have to. So it's when you set a
Speaker 2: boundary with them when you say no to them. When
Speaker 2: people are dating in the beginning and they're questioning, is
Speaker 2: this person I'm dating? And narcissists, they always say to them,
Speaker 2: cancel plans with them. See what they do, Say no
Speaker 2: to them, tell them you want to take it a
Speaker 2: little slower. See what they do, y'all.
Speaker 1: Doctor Z says, Narcissists don't show up for you because
Speaker 1: they care. They show up so people think that they care.
Speaker 1: She says, I always tell my patients to look at
Speaker 1: the function of the behavior, the underlying why someone does
Speaker 1: what they do. With NPD, which is a narcissistic personality
Speaker 1: disorder which must be diagnosed. Ladies and gentlemen, that function
Speaker 1: will always be because it gives them something. It actually
Speaker 1: isn't even about you. You're the vehicle through which their
Speaker 1: needs are met. Yes, oh see, then I want to
Speaker 1: dig to what unmet needs as a child, when unmet
Speaker 1: for this to kind of morph into this and it's
Speaker 1: amazing that it is called a personality disorder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the one very fascinating thing about narcissic personality,
Speaker 2: or I will say this. You look at depression, you
Speaker 2: look at anxiety, you look at my polar disorder, schizophrenia,
Speaker 2: even some of the other personality sorders like sworderline personality disorder.
Speaker 2: They can all manifest very differently in different people, different ages,
Speaker 2: you know, like even where you are in the world.
Speaker 2: I mean, they manifest differently. I get anxious or frustrated,
Speaker 2: I start to get migraines. You know, somebody else may
Speaker 2: get stomaching, somebody else may isolate, So everybody experiences it differently.
Speaker 2: Narcissistic personality disorder doesn't matter who you are, where you are,
Speaker 2: where you come from. The behaviors are identical, and they
Speaker 2: are such nuanced, small behaviors that it's amazing that it's
Speaker 2: it's all the same across the board. It's a very
Speaker 2: distinct blueprint.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: But what happens then is that once people start to
Speaker 2: see these blueprints, they're able then to predict. And when
Speaker 2: you're able to predict somebody's behavior, then you start to
Speaker 2: feel empowered because then you realize it's not about you.
Speaker 2: It actually has nothing to do with you, which goes
Speaker 2: back to what you were just saying, that it's just
Speaker 2: we're just the objects, interchangeable objects.
Speaker 1: He ain't something I say, you said it, this was
Speaker 1: this was in your post from January twenty five, You're good,
Speaker 1: You're good, good, y'all, She's amazing. She also says you
Speaker 1: learn way more about a person at the end of
Speaker 1: a relationship then at the start. We could go on
Speaker 1: and on and on. Yes, she said, this applies to friendship,
Speaker 1: significant others, coworkers, family, all of it applies. Speaking of family,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the possibility of narcissistic parents, let's do that.
Speaker 1: I find that when a person goes to therapy and
Speaker 1: gets some counseling, you begin to get language for what
Speaker 1: you're going through, why, and how you cope with what
Speaker 1: you're going through. But then it's always that geniagram that
Speaker 1: has acts. So what youse your parents? Who are their siblings?
Speaker 1: Who are they? You gotta go back to the root
Speaker 1: of a lot of even my behavior has a root.
Speaker 1: We're not saying our parents are the cause of how
Speaker 1: we respond to situations. So no, that's not what we're doing.
Speaker 1: We now blaming parents. But I find that when you
Speaker 1: get counseling, you are able to see your parents through
Speaker 1: a very educational lenses, having compassion, like, oh man, so
Speaker 1: they were going through this, man, I hate that maybe
Speaker 1: their childhood wasn't the best and they didn't get love,
Speaker 1: so you begin to have compassion like man instead of
Speaker 1: the blame and anger for me turned into compassion like man.
Speaker 1: Right now, ladies and gentlemen that are listening to today,
Speaker 1: And by the way, and I'm prefacing, I'm saying, I'm
Speaker 1: prefacing all of this because of what therapy did for
Speaker 1: me to recognize my own parents' behaviors and their struggles
Speaker 1: inter personally and how they were as parents. These questions,
Speaker 1: these next questions I'm about to ask have nothing to
Speaker 1: do with me, like, oh my gosh, let's determine who
Speaker 1: was narcissistic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I just wanted.
Speaker 1: People to know context wise of what therapy did for
Speaker 1: me as parents, and what therapy is probably doing for
Speaker 1: other people who are probably getting help being in a
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationship with the romantic relationship. And then you find out, man,
Speaker 1: my dad or my mom, or you might an uncle
Speaker 1: or aunt somebody that raised you, you know, possibly has
Speaker 1: this disorder. Doctor Jamie mm hmm, yep.
Speaker 2: So one of the things you'll find is that when
Speaker 2: you if you are in therapy and you're kind of
Speaker 2: either trying to figure out if you're in a narcisstic relationship,
Speaker 2: or if I'm working with people to leave or post separation,
Speaker 2: because the abuse continues even after you're separated. What people
Speaker 2: find is that the pattern that they're experiencing in this
Speaker 2: abusive relationship is either something that feel familiar to them
Speaker 2: or something that that is, you know, in an odd way, comforting.
Speaker 2: Now I don't say comforting and familiar because they like it,
Speaker 2: but comforting and familiar because they've seen this before and again.
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be you know, if you're with
Speaker 2: somebody's narcissist, that means a parent was a narcissist. It
Speaker 2: can be just you know, you could have had a
Speaker 2: parent that was neglectful, and so your strategies, you know,
Speaker 2: developed into well, I'm not going to let anyone ever
Speaker 2: neglect me or leave me, so I'm going to put
Speaker 2: up this wall. And then later in life that translates
Speaker 2: into narcissism. So, you know, whatever the case may be.
Speaker 2: But people will start to identify patterns in They are
Speaker 2: very big on patterns of behavior, not just the you know,
Speaker 2: tell me how you're weak was, but like, I want
Speaker 2: to know the patterns of behavior. I want to know
Speaker 2: what you're doing and when you're doing it and so
Speaker 2: and why you're doing it. So they'll see these patterns
Speaker 2: that they have in their dynamics of this relationship. They'll
Speaker 2: realize that the reason why it's familiar to them is
Speaker 2: because they know it. And our brains, generally speaking, are
Speaker 2: tend to be lazy. We like familiarities. Human beings, we
Speaker 2: really are resistant to change, and so when something is
Speaker 2: familiar to us, we gravitate towards it, even if it's unhealthy.
Speaker 2: And you know, we may realize that we're repeating patterns
Speaker 2: that are familiar to us but clearly are not healthy.
Speaker 2: And so that awareness of that, I think is a
Speaker 2: really big big push for people excuse me, in therapy,
Speaker 2: because it helps them to identify that what's going on
Speaker 2: in front of them is something that's not their it's
Speaker 2: not their fault, and that they have the ability to
Speaker 2: change their pattern. Because that's the wonderful thing about patterns
Speaker 2: is that patterns are learned behaviors, and if you learn something,
Speaker 2: you can unlearn it. It may take a really long
Speaker 2: time to pull back layers, but you can unlearn it.
Speaker 2: You just have to really be willing to do it.
Speaker 2: And it's going to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: That's so good. That's so good. So I guess, how
Speaker 1: does a person recognize a narcissistic parent and healthy boundaries?
Speaker 1: You encourage healthy boundaries even with parents. You have a
Speaker 1: relationship road map workshop where you help people recognize patterns
Speaker 1: and you help people to set boundaries. That's kind of
Speaker 1: new for people that I'm learning, Like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: I can set boundaries with family members.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, So we grow up a lot of
Speaker 2: people and I'm throwing myself in this too. We grow
Speaker 2: up thinking that we are not allowed to have boundaries
Speaker 2: with our parents because our parents are our parents, and
Speaker 2: there's a level of respect you do not cross, and
Speaker 2: you know, and it's just kind of how it was.
Speaker 2: I laugh about this all the time. I have My
Speaker 2: middle one is seven and she is as sassy as
Speaker 2: I mean I have never seen. And I look at
Speaker 2: her and I'm thinking in my head, if I ever
Speaker 2: did anything like that, yeah, oh my god, I mean forget, forget,
Speaker 2: forget it, forget it like you forget, and so it
Speaker 2: would have been grounded for a century. So we think
Speaker 2: that we can't set boundaries with their parents because there
Speaker 2: are parents. But here's the thing is that it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter who they are. You, as a human being, have
Speaker 2: a right in this world to set boundaries. You have
Speaker 2: a right as a human being. I don't care who
Speaker 2: they are, to let people know how you are willing
Speaker 2: to be treated and how you will not tolerate to
Speaker 2: be treated. What they do with that information, that's on them.
Speaker 2: We can't change anyone else. But we have the right
Speaker 2: as human beings to let people know what we're willing
Speaker 2: to take and not take.
Speaker 1: So a lot of us we don't set boundaries, nor
Speaker 1: do we may even walk away from certain things, all
Speaker 1: because we're worried about their reaction, correct versus what you
Speaker 1: just said. That's not on you. Their reaction is not
Speaker 1: on you at this point, y'all. If you know you
Speaker 1: are in something unhealthy and abusive, the worry should not
Speaker 1: be about them and their reaction. It's got to be
Speaker 1: about your freedom and at this point, y'all, quality of
Speaker 1: life that you decide that you deserve to have.
Speaker 2: I love that absolutely absolutely. And I'll have people come
Speaker 2: in all this day and they'll say, you know, doctor Z,
Speaker 2: I set a boundary, but it didn't work. And I'll say, well,
Speaker 2: what do you mean it didn't work? Well, my mom
Speaker 2: still did X, Y and Z, and my dad still
Speaker 2: did X, Y and Z. But that's not how you
Speaker 2: decide whether a boundary worked or not. The boundary is
Speaker 2: did you set it or not? Well? Yes, I did? Okay,
Speaker 2: Well what they do in response to that is not
Speaker 2: of your concern. Especially with parents. You're going to feel
Speaker 2: like you're doing something wrong. You're going to feel guilty,
Speaker 2: and you're going to feel bad. You need to set
Speaker 2: the boundary out at the same exact time. Feel those emotions.
Speaker 1: Now set the boundary, and now what I found. You know,
Speaker 1: just with people that I've loved, you do it in
Speaker 1: love is a way I think, just for now you
Speaker 1: can be flat footed, be factual, you know, but in
Speaker 1: setting the boundary, especially with loved one with parents, I
Speaker 1: personally wouldn't suggest cursing them out and no throwing pots
Speaker 1: and pans.
Speaker 2: Nah, no, no, correct, correct, that's not neutral. I always
Speaker 2: tell people to strive for neutral, like neutrality, which means
Speaker 2: not rolling your eyes, not ignoring, not throwing pots and pans,
Speaker 2: not screaming, but neutral, neutral tone, neutral words, no opinions,
Speaker 2: no anything but fact just neutral, because then you kind
Speaker 2: of lose sight of everything.
Speaker 1: Wow, you're amazing. You're amazing. One person knows that I
Speaker 1: am talking to you today. I always love telling people, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm talking with someone and they're expert in this. And
Speaker 1: so they wanted to talk about narcissistic bosses, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm like, wait a minute, you got a narcissistic boss,
Speaker 1: you know, so that I'm gonna be going on Google
Speaker 1: to find out who their boss is. But that's that's
Speaker 1: just we don't have to do that. And so they're saying,
Speaker 1: so many people are quitting or quiet quitting, you've heard
Speaker 1: that term quiet quitting because they're tired of overworking. How
Speaker 1: can we tell under a corporate atmosphere that our boss
Speaker 1: could be a narcissist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a couple of things. One is not
Speaker 2: all the time. But sometimes if you look at people
Speaker 2: in higher positions, right, CEO, CFOs or people just kind
Speaker 2: of that are that are that are kind of higher
Speaker 2: up in their field or higher up in their industry
Speaker 2: and they are in charge of multiple people, they tend
Speaker 2: to have more narcissistic traits, let's say, than somebody who
Speaker 2: does not, and it makes them good at their job, right,
Speaker 2: And it makes them be able to navigate and manage
Speaker 2: all these people. But when you're talking about narcissistic personality disorder,
Speaker 2: there's a difference. So somebody who has a boss that
Speaker 2: is narcissistic personality disorder, which we'll do a couple of things. One,
Speaker 2: they will keep you walking on eggshells. They may fly
Speaker 2: off the handle for no reason. They may be really
Speaker 2: sweet to you one day. The thing is is you
Speaker 2: have no idea why they're switching it. So you're constantly
Speaker 2: trying to figure out what it is it's making them,
Speaker 2: you know, trying to figure out the rules of the game.
Speaker 2: But the problem is they deliberately are not telling you
Speaker 2: the rules of the game, and once you think you
Speaker 2: figured it out, they change it up again. That's on purpose.
Speaker 2: You may find that they embarrass you in meetings. They
Speaker 2: may find they purposely leave you out of meetings, leave
Speaker 2: you off certain emails on purpose. You may find that
Speaker 2: they keep information from you. They pass over you for
Speaker 2: promotion so that you then have to go speak to them.
Speaker 2: They oftentimes take credit for your work. They will not
Speaker 2: give you the credit that you deserve. They will you
Speaker 2: go out of their way to make you feel that
Speaker 2: you don't know what you're talking about, or that you
Speaker 2: are so amazing and wonderful, and you in a situation
Speaker 2: where you're this like go to amazing, smart human being,
Speaker 2: but then bring you down justice fast, vibrating you.
Speaker 1: Let's say in a meeting, Oh my gosh, as you're
Speaker 1: saying this, I am literally thinking about many people who
Speaker 1: are going to listen to this and have found themselves
Speaker 1: in relationship with the narcissists working for one, you got
Speaker 1: blood ties with one, and my heart is breaking on
Speaker 1: the inside, like because you almost feel like that narcissistic
Speaker 1: person does not even value your soul.
Speaker 2: They don't. You're not a person, You're you're an object
Speaker 2: that and understand for me as a psychologist, like I
Speaker 2: help everyone, Like my goal and life is to make
Speaker 2: everybody feel better. Right, So for me to say this,
Speaker 2: it's like when psychologist says this, we all talk about this,
Speaker 2: Like for us to say this, it's really like, oh,
Speaker 2: we don't want to. But they view other people as
Speaker 2: interchangeable objects. So whatever it is they need in any
Speaker 2: given moment, whether it's money, whether or it's sex, whether
Speaker 2: it's a job, whether it's somebody to go to dinner with,
Speaker 2: whether it's it's you know, just somebody to drive them somewhere,
Speaker 2: somebody to have on their arm, to look good, whatever
Speaker 2: they need in that moment, that's what they're going to
Speaker 2: use to get to you. And then when that need
Speaker 2: is gone, you don't serve a purpose anymore. And so
Speaker 2: it's it's they they look at people as like they
Speaker 2: own they own them. There's like an ownership quality to
Speaker 2: it that you you are, They are entitled to you,
Speaker 2: They are entitled to what you can give them. Wow,
Speaker 2: that's why people that break up that break like narcissic
Speaker 2: relationships where if they break up, you know, in non
Speaker 2: narcissistic relationships, if you break up with somebody, you may
Speaker 2: talk every now and then, but like you're not together anymore,
Speaker 2: there's no it's it's separate, right, and everyone goes on
Speaker 2: their way. And I'm not saying it's not hard, but
Speaker 2: with a narcissist, they will forever think even if you're
Speaker 2: not together, they will forever think that you are there
Speaker 2: still always.
Speaker 1: I know it's not funny, but I gotta I remember
Speaker 1: telling someone because we're still friends, and I would say,
Speaker 1: even when you walk down the aisle and they say
Speaker 1: who giveth the way this person or whatever and be
Speaker 1: like we do because I'm still in relationship. So wow,
Speaker 1: this is so good, doctor Jamie, this is so good.
Speaker 1: I'm excited because you have two books called Find Your
Speaker 1: Calm and Find Good Habits and your Job. You have
Speaker 1: helped many people escape narcissistic relationships. You've helped people, You've
Speaker 1: empowered people. I don't want to respect that this is
Speaker 1: what you do as a job. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: someone is listening that's probably just need to know just one.
Speaker 1: I know there's probably more than one, but what is
Speaker 1: the first thing a person needs to start doing if
Speaker 1: they want to break away from a narcissist and begin
Speaker 1: to set boundaries.
Speaker 2: I would if you can safely get into individual therapy
Speaker 2: with somebody who is able to understand the nuances of
Speaker 2: these behaviors, that would be that would be my first, Okay,
Speaker 2: So that you can have somebody that's objective, that's outside
Speaker 2: of this, that you can trust, that you have a
Speaker 2: safe space to begin to process what you are going through.
Speaker 2: Because at a certain point point when you realize what's
Speaker 2: going on, it's kind of this light bulb moment, and
Speaker 2: once you see it, you can't unsee it, So it's
Speaker 2: really important to be with somebody in therapy when that happens.
Speaker 1: Can you still love and support someone that is a narcissist.
Speaker 2: I think you can say that you don't want something
Speaker 2: bad to happen to them, but as far as loving them,
Speaker 2: they at that point probably have done so much abusive
Speaker 2: behavior to you that I don't put the response ability
Speaker 2: on people to still have love for them. I go
Speaker 2: to a place more of can you be at peace
Speaker 2: with what happened for yourself? I think it's very hard
Speaker 2: to tell people to work on kind of having love
Speaker 2: towards it. If they can, that's amazing. I just I
Speaker 2: don't like telling people that's the goal. It's more can
Speaker 2: you be at peace where whatever they do does not
Speaker 2: affect you anymore?
Speaker 1: That's so good. And that's where we come into your book,
Speaker 1: How to Find Your Calm, How you can break unhelpful
Speaker 1: thought patterns, practicing how to confront fears, finding strategies for
Speaker 1: focusing on the present moment. And I just think that
Speaker 1: I'm excited about this book and your mission is helping
Speaker 1: people find a path toward a calmer, happier daily life.
Speaker 1: That was the reason for that book and then find
Speaker 1: good habits. You know, I noticed that when you're healing
Speaker 1: from a relationship, whether it was abusive or it just
Speaker 1: didn't work out, you kind of lost yourself somewhere along
Speaker 1: the way or your sure your habits become their habits,
Speaker 1: their habits become yours, and it's like, who are you
Speaker 1: after this relationship is done? So finding good habits can
Speaker 1: you kind of dive in, and if you want to
Speaker 1: dive into, find your home before I let you go,
Speaker 1: because I could keep you on here for forty more.
Speaker 2: Man, Now, this is fun.
Speaker 1: This is fun. I like that, But I want to acknowledge.
Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge your relationship roadmap, workshop and your books,
Speaker 1: find your and find good habits.
Speaker 2: So I'll start find good habits the biggest thing. And
Speaker 2: I like that you said when you come out of
Speaker 2: a relationship, whether it's a narcissisic one or it's not,
Speaker 2: or it's toxic, you kind of lose yourself a little bit, right.
Speaker 2: That's that happens, and I think it's important to say
Speaker 2: that that happens, and it's okay. And one of the
Speaker 2: ways to kind of get yourself back is in the
Speaker 2: book find good habits is I first have people do
Speaker 2: what it calls a value assessment. It's so important to
Speaker 2: figure out what it is that you value in life,
Speaker 2: and then from those values, you then make goals, tangible
Speaker 2: goals like that, hard fact, goals that you can actually
Speaker 2: count and say, did I do this today? Yes?
Speaker 1: Or no? Not?
Speaker 2: I want to be happy because I don't know what
Speaker 2: that means. You never want a goal to be a
Speaker 2: mood because moods change. This morning, I was in a
Speaker 2: horrible mood. Now I'm fine. What if I like in
Speaker 2: a bad mood later on, does that mean I fail
Speaker 2: at my goal? So moods should never be goals. There
Speaker 2: are transient states, and so you want to make sure
Speaker 2: that your goals are in line with your value. So
Speaker 2: if I value being a good psychologist, right, let's say
Speaker 2: my goal is to make sure I do outreach once
Speaker 2: a week, to make sure I post something on Instagram
Speaker 2: once a week? Did I do that? Yes or no?
Speaker 2: And the more of those goals that I hit that
Speaker 2: are in line with what I value as being a
Speaker 2: good psychologist kind of puts me on that path to
Speaker 2: have less anxiety, less stress, right, and puts me back
Speaker 2: into who I want to be. If my behavior, though,
Speaker 2: goes the opposite direction of the thing that I value,
Speaker 2: it puts us more at risk for anxiety and depression.
Speaker 2: So it really has to be value driven behavior, even
Speaker 2: if it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Value driven. And you said not necessarily moves because they're transient,
Speaker 1: they change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like when people say they'll come into my
Speaker 2: office and they'll say, I just I just want to
Speaker 2: be happy. I'm like, okay, what does that look like?
Speaker 2: It's happiness for me. I'm going to go about that
Speaker 2: way differently than you may go about you know, happiness,
Speaker 2: And I think it's a big it's a danger. And
Speaker 2: that's why things like you know, self love and I
Speaker 2: think they're great concepts. But but what is self give
Speaker 2: me behaviors? How will you know if you're loving yourself?
Speaker 2: What kind of things do you need to do to
Speaker 2: fall under the umbrella of self loves? So that's what
Speaker 2: this book helps with.
Speaker 1: That's so good, so good. And your workshop relation ship boundaries. Yes,
Speaker 1: have you seen people that are already in relationships that
Speaker 1: it actually strengthens the relationships they're already in.
Speaker 2: The non narcissistic ones, Yes, for sure. The narcissistic ones, no,
Speaker 2: I wish I could have saw her face.
Speaker 1: She was like, yes, then yes, the non narcissistic yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely yes.
Speaker 2: Not the narcissistic ones know, because the abuse just gets
Speaker 2: progressively worse if you don't leave. But the non narcissistic
Speaker 2: ones absolutely for sure.
Speaker 1: Well, because you know, when you're in a relationship with
Speaker 1: someone and then all of a sudden a year goes
Speaker 1: by and they say, you know, I don't like when
Speaker 1: you do that, that kind of your pride and ego
Speaker 1: gets stung a little bit. Yes, but it makes the
Speaker 1: relationship better because that person they probably said it was
Speaker 1: so much fear because they were probably worried about the
Speaker 1: reaction they were. Sometimes we don't say things because we'd
Speaker 1: rather hold on to the relationship as well.
Speaker 2: But absolutely there are.
Speaker 1: Times when when someone says, you know what, I don't
Speaker 1: like when you do that, because say, it's me that
Speaker 1: they're telling that too. I didn't know that me going yes,
Speaker 1: putting my doing like this to my phone with my fingernails,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that that irritates you or makes you anxious.
Speaker 1: So now that I know, ah, wow, the response should
Speaker 1: be I'm so sorry. I had no clue yes.
Speaker 2: So that's the difference. I'm actually use that as a
Speaker 2: perfect example. That is the difference between somebody who is
Speaker 2: non narcissist versus narcissist in a relationship. If you say
Speaker 2: to somebody who maybe has the narcissisic features, let's say
Speaker 2: they're selfish or whatever, they don't listen that much to you,
Speaker 2: and you tell them that right that you know, this
Speaker 2: is this I don't like when you do this. Somebody
Speaker 2: who has empathy, somebody who cares about how the other
Speaker 2: person feels, they're going to respond like you ditch you
Speaker 2: just said. They may not agree with it, but they
Speaker 2: don't want to hurt you, and maybe they can find
Speaker 2: a compromise. Somebody who is a narcissist who hears that
Speaker 2: is going to look at that as an attack, because narcissists,
Speaker 2: when they hear criticism proof, they take it to a
Speaker 2: unhelped I mean the rage. It's like you attack to
Speaker 2: their soul. So not only will they not hear you,
Speaker 2: but they will not make any effort whatsoever to change,
Speaker 2: And more important, it doesn't bother them that you are bothered.
Speaker 2: There's no empathy there. So you know, sometimes people say
Speaker 2: how do I know it's a narcissist versus not because
Speaker 2: sometimes on the surface, the behaviors, the patterns may look
Speaker 2: the same. This is how no empathy, how do they respond,
Speaker 2: no empathy, no concern for you know, not able to
Speaker 2: put themselves in other people's shoes and then using that
Speaker 2: to then manipulate you even further.
Speaker 1: And ladies and gentlemen, when we hear that, we say,
Speaker 1: oh no, oh no honey, not me, not me, no mean.
Speaker 1: And you just never know you could find your never know,
Speaker 1: you know, because you're drawn to them by their charm.
Speaker 1: The love bombing, all the love bombing will almost blind
Speaker 1: you to that in people, there's nothing better. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And here's the thing too, you know, it's a people
Speaker 2: that narcissists are drawn to typically are very successful, attractive, smart,
Speaker 2: have so much going to them. Why one because it
Speaker 2: makes the narcissist look good, but two, it's so much
Speaker 2: supply for them when they bring somebody down who was
Speaker 2: that high up. So it's not just people who are
Speaker 2: really weak and mild and vulnerable that go to narcissists
Speaker 2: a lot of times, it's people that are very successful
Speaker 2: and very smart and very driven.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, now, because I'm not even driving and
Speaker 1: I feel like I need to pull over. Okay, so
Speaker 1: I can imagine someone who's listening to checking in on
Speaker 1: their riot home on your commute. You're ready to tell
Speaker 1: the train conductor, pover. Listen you guys, doctor Z, you
Speaker 1: have been in absolute joy. I tell you, I do
Speaker 1: want you to come back, because I want to go
Speaker 1: into I've heard. I've been reading about healthy narcissism and
Speaker 1: how like you said, there are people who are very
Speaker 1: high up in what they do. You have to have
Speaker 1: a level of narcissism to be successful. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you do or not. You're successful, doctor Z. My
Speaker 1: girls that our producers on here are successful. I just
Speaker 1: don't know if they're necessarily narcissist. I deem myself to
Speaker 1: be successful. I don't know if I'm narcissists. So I
Speaker 1: just don't know if you have to be a narcissist
Speaker 1: to be successful.
Speaker 2: You don't, Okay, you don't, Yeah, you don't. You know,
Speaker 2: and just you know, narcissistic qualities, let's say, doesn't include
Speaker 2: lack of empathy, lack of remorse, not being able to
Speaker 2: see other people's side to things. I mean that also
Speaker 2: is what makes it's a good CEO or you know,
Speaker 2: somebody who's in charge of being able to hear their
Speaker 2: employees concerned and being able to fix things to make
Speaker 2: people's lives better. So I love you.
Speaker 1: Know.
Speaker 2: That's why I think narcissism sometimes it's it's hard to
Speaker 2: it's it kind of gives us, I don't know this, uh,
Speaker 2: the wrong definition for certain things, got it? So I
Speaker 2: always use narcissic personality disorder because I think that that
Speaker 2: kind of separates the two.
Speaker 1: That's so good, doctor Z.
Speaker 2: Thank you again, Thank you, This was so fun. Anytime?
Speaker 1: Where can we find you?
Speaker 2: I'm on Instagram, doctor Z, Underscore Psychologists, and my website
Speaker 2: doctor Jamie Zuckerman dot com. I'm on TikTok and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes she is, Yes she is. Yeah, I'm sad
Speaker 1: to see her go, but we've got to go and
Speaker 1: she's got to go. So I'm gonna put you on
Speaker 1: the spot. You promise you'll come back again?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely right, It is great.
Speaker 1: All right, we'll see you late. OMG. I know y'all
Speaker 1: have been seeing this word flying around on social media.
Speaker 1: I mean it is everywhere, whether it's the word narcissist
Speaker 1: or narcissism, and yes, we have found out that it
Speaker 1: can also be a diagnosed personality disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder.
Speaker 1: A person can also have just narcissistic traits. It don't
Speaker 1: necessarily make you a narcissist, but you might have some traits.
Speaker 1: And I am so glad that doctor Z was able
Speaker 1: to break down a few things and how narcissists actually
Speaker 1: prey upon a certain personality or they just get joy
Speaker 1: out of breaking somebody down. Y'all, Doctor Z has to
Speaker 1: come back. I hope you guys learned a lot. I
Speaker 1: know I did. I know that whenever we have these conversations. Yes,
Speaker 1: there are certain people that pop up in my mind.
Speaker 1: But I also lit sit here and I check in
Speaker 1: with myself. I check in with my heart to make sure,
Speaker 1: like Lord, I need to pray about this and making
Speaker 1: sure that there is nothing in my heart that is
Speaker 1: contrary to the love of God that needs to be
Speaker 1: shown to everybody. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio yo app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.