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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our series about cauldron's.

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Speaker 1: That's right. In the last episode, we talked about cauldrons, uh,

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Speaker 1: and mostly an introduction into the idea of the cauldron

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Speaker 1: is both a mundane tool for heating water and making soup,

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Speaker 1: but also getting in a little bit to the idea

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Speaker 1: that okay, this is something that also ends up taking

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Speaker 1: on sacred and supernatural characteristics in various traditions. Um. But

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Speaker 1: for the most part, we we talked about soup technology,

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Speaker 1: which in and of itself is pretty fascinating. Yeah. We

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Speaker 1: pondered the foggy distant prehistory of salmon soups in Japan. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of this episode is going to look

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Speaker 1: at the cauldron in Chinese traditions and in Chinese history

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Speaker 1: and mythology. So in Chinese culture and history, the ancient

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Speaker 1: cauldron is known as the ding a cooking cauldron with

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Speaker 1: two looped handles and three or four legs. The three

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Speaker 1: legged ones tend to have a more of a circular pot,

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Speaker 1: while the four legged ones tend to have a rectangular

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Speaker 1: pot and appear more like what we might think of

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Speaker 1: as a chest or something in Western traditions, it's maybe

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Speaker 1: a little less recognizable as a cauldron if you're basing

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Speaker 1: your expectations just on cauldrons in Western traditions. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: made me wonder, like, wait a minute, why are pots

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Speaker 1: always round? I mean, they don't have to be. So

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Speaker 1: this is a pot that's that's got corners and it

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Speaker 1: looks like something that link would pop open and pull

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Speaker 1: a treasure out of. Oh it's the hook shot. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean these are ultimately artifacts that have a number

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Speaker 1: of supernatural associations with them. But in terms of actual

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Speaker 1: Chinese cauldrons or ding that have survived, uh, for instance,

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Speaker 1: one example of that that that came up in my

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Speaker 1: researches from the Warring States period around from around four

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Speaker 1: thirty three b c e. Found in the Lego Doun

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Speaker 1: tombs in central China. Upon its discovery, it still had

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Speaker 1: ox bones inside it and soot on its base, meaning

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Speaker 1: that it was apparently used for cooking, perhaps as part

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Speaker 1: of a funerary feast. It was made of bronze and

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Speaker 1: also included lifting hooks and a ladle lifting hooks, Does

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Speaker 1: that mean something you'd like put some some hooks in

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Speaker 1: to move it out of the fire. Correct in this

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Speaker 1: In this case, now, when we get into later discussions

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Speaker 1: of of cauldrons, you also get into the idea of

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Speaker 1: flesh hooks for your cauldron. They have to do with

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Speaker 1: the obviously, for the manipulating of flesh. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: some sort of meat that you're cooking inside of said cauldron.

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Speaker 1: But these I believe, Yeah, we're just to to move

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Speaker 1: the cauldron around while it was heated. Okay, So a cauldron,

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Speaker 1: we know, can be used for the chores that sustain

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Speaker 1: everyday life, cooking food and washing and so forth. But

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Speaker 1: in Chinese traditions, cauldrons have a much more culturally and

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Speaker 1: religiously charged significance. Even though they could be used for

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Speaker 1: those same mundane tasks, they might also decide the very

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Speaker 1: fate of your existence. That's right, and and uh and

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Speaker 1: and I do want to stress that a lot of

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Speaker 1: this will also end up lining up with traditions in

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Speaker 1: the West as well, that we'll get into much later.

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Speaker 1: But but yeah, this this thing that for all intents

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Speaker 1: and purposes, is about heating water for soup or maybe

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Speaker 1: for laundry or something like that ends up taking on

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Speaker 1: greater significance. So in Chinese tradition, the ding became associated

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Speaker 1: with power and landownership, and it was used not only

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Speaker 1: for food production and also for oridge. It was also

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Speaker 1: used to make sacrifices to the gods. And the idea

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Speaker 1: of gods here might also well include ancestral spirits, right

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Speaker 1: They're sort of a blurring of the distinction there that,

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Speaker 1: like appeasing one's ancestors, was believed to play a role

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Speaker 1: in determining your fortune. Right now. One of the sources

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Speaker 1: I was looking to for for this episode is an

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Speaker 1: article titled Visions of Hell in Asia from eighteen published

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Speaker 1: in the Journal of the Oriental Society of Australia by

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Speaker 1: scholar Paul Morabel, and in it the author writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: in ancient China, the cauldron was the alchemical recipient par

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Speaker 1: excellence for the sacrifices animals and humans required in order

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Speaker 1: to transmute them into immortal creatures when mixed with certain

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Speaker 1: minerals and metals. Now, I want to stress that he's

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Speaker 1: he's talking very broadly here. This is not to imply

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Speaker 1: that all of these various cauldrons, including the specific one

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned, was used for any thing like human sacrifice.

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Speaker 1: But of course human sacrifice is something that one encounters,

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Speaker 1: uh in the ancient traditions of of every human culture.

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Speaker 1: Just about so. But yeah, this idea that we we

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Speaker 1: touched on very briefly in the last episode, that what

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Speaker 1: is a cauldron, what is a cooking pot, but other

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Speaker 1: than something that transforms one thing into another state, Right, so,

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Speaker 1: it might transform a say, a tough piece of game

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Speaker 1: meat into a nutritious broth and a much more tender

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Speaker 1: piece of meat. And it might transform various ingredients living

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Speaker 1: and dead into a bunch of fumes, a pillar of smoke,

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Speaker 1: or a burnt offering that would be seen as pleasing

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Speaker 1: to the gods or to one's ancestors. Correct. Now, when

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Speaker 1: it comes to the sacred thing, there is like we

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Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, it also has this this this prestige with it.

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Speaker 1: It signifies power, and it can also signify divine right

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Speaker 1: of rule. And in this there's no greater example than

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Speaker 1: the nine cauldrons of You the Great. Now we've discussed

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Speaker 1: You the Great before and stuff to blow your mind,

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Speaker 1: as he as the legendary Um ruler of the Shia

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Speaker 1: dynasty of the second and third millennium BC, born um

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Speaker 1: from the belly of his father's corpse. He said to

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Speaker 1: have quelled the great floods and established dynastic rule in China.

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Speaker 1: His control of the flood is attributed differently in different tales,

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Speaker 1: but I think we can summarize it as entailing the

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Speaker 1: defeat of monsters, the possible prometheum, theft of the sacred self,

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Speaker 1: renewing soil from the gods, the help of various gods,

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Speaker 1: and also the use of damn and irrigation technology. So

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Speaker 1: he's you know, he's a culture bearer. And oh, he's

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Speaker 1: also said to have measured the earth, and in some

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Speaker 1: accounts he stands eight feet tall. But the other feet

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Speaker 1: attributed to you the great is that he also cast

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Speaker 1: the nine cauldrons upon rising to power as young and

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Speaker 1: in Turner discussed in the Handbook of Chinese Mythology quote,

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Speaker 1: those cauldrons had the divine function to teach people to

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Speaker 1: distinguish between faithfulness and treachery, and to keep evils and

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Speaker 1: demons from harming people. So they were treated as national

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Speaker 1: treasures and I believe it's uh that this story is

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Speaker 1: related to the idea that the cauldron itself is a

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Speaker 1: sort of symbol of power, both in a literal and

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Speaker 1: metaphorical sense, like that in the literal sense that you

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Speaker 1: would have to be a rich and powerful person in

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Speaker 1: ancient China to own one or more of these cauldrons,

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Speaker 1: and also that the cauldron was kind of like a

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Speaker 1: symbol of someone's power or political dominance, right, right. And

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Speaker 1: in this case, they're they're nine of them because they

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Speaker 1: were nine cauldrons for the nine provinces, but then nine

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Speaker 1: also had um cosmologically important connections as well. There's also

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Speaker 1: this tradition of saying that the nine cauldrons uh sometimes

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Speaker 1: are scattered and lost and uh, and it was said

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Speaker 1: that whoever wished to claim imperial power and reign by

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Speaker 1: the mandate of heaven would need to collect all these

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Speaker 1: nine cauldrons. Yeah. I think I recall reading somewhere that

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Speaker 1: there's an expression means something like seeking after cauldrons or

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Speaker 1: something that means like ambition for power. Yeah. Yeah, there

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Speaker 1: There's really are a number of different sayings in in

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Speaker 1: in Chinese tradition that allude to cauldrons and and make

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Speaker 1: use of the smoke. TIF in the book Chinese Mythology

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Speaker 1: and Introduction and Barrel ads that while you the great

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Speaker 1: forge the vessels, they are said to have been cast

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Speaker 1: by feeling the Dragon, god of wind. The cauldrons could

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Speaker 1: and would change weight and size, or even vanished completely

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Speaker 1: or reappear at will, quote according to the virtue or

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Speaker 1: decadence of the dynasty possessing them. Whoa, so yeah, this

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Speaker 1: gets pretty interesting. Forens, if a dynasty is virtuous, then

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Speaker 1: the cauldrons would become so massive that they would be

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Speaker 1: almost impossible to lift. It was said that when the

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Speaker 1: child people overthrew the shang, the child's virtue was such

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Speaker 1: that it took ninety men to lift a single cauldron.

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Speaker 1: But then when the Chin overthrew the chow, one of

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Speaker 1: the cauldrons just like immediately flew into the river. Oh

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Speaker 1: so the inanimate objects have a will of their own.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like the one ring, except the cauldrons are virtuous,

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Speaker 1: whereas the ring is wicked. Yeah. Yeah. It's also specifically

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Speaker 1: noted that it is the weight that is important, not

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Speaker 1: the size, So you you might have a dynasty that

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Speaker 1: is corrupt. Uh, and the cauldrons might look enormous, but

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Speaker 1: they weigh a little uh, thus signifying that you know

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Speaker 1: that they're morally impoverished. But then the opposite is also true.

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Speaker 1: You might have a noble dynasty and the cauldrons are

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Speaker 1: very small, but it would take like ninety thousand men

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Speaker 1: to lift a single one of them, because such is

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Speaker 1: the virtue of these rulers. Oh that that resonates in

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Speaker 1: a very pleasing way, because you imagine and like an

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Speaker 1: evil dynasty having these giant cauldrons that are easily blown

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Speaker 1: over by the wind, the big surface area and very

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Speaker 1: little mass. Yeah, yeah, I think it works on so

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Speaker 1: many levels. Uh. They're said to have been cast in

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Speaker 1: iron and also said to be illustrated with images of

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Speaker 1: the gods and forged from metals offered up by the

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Speaker 1: nine regional stewards. There's also discussion of them being important

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Speaker 1: to distinguish malign creatures, which are sometimes translated as goblins

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Speaker 1: and trolls. So I'm not sure if that's meant to

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Speaker 1: mean that the cauldrons also depicted these uh quote unquote

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Speaker 1: adverse beings. But because it doesn't seem like it's explicitly stated,

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Speaker 1: but um, at the very least they had images of

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Speaker 1: gods on them. Now, as for the use of cauldrons

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Speaker 1: and sacrifice, and borough includes a wonderful passage from the

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Speaker 1: ancient text the Book of Songs or the Classic of Poetry.

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Speaker 1: The passaging question is celebrating the agricultural culture hero and

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Speaker 1: god Huji a k lord millet. Here is part of

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Speaker 1: it in translation, of course, describing the sacrifice, our sacrifice.

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Speaker 1: What is it like some pound, some bail, some sift,

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Speaker 1: some tread. We wash it soaking, soaking wet. We steam it, piping,

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Speaker 1: piping hot. Then we plan with thoughtful care, gathering southern wood,

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Speaker 1: offering rich fat. We take a ram to make the

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Speaker 1: wayside sacrifice, roasting and broiling to usher in the new year.

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Speaker 1: The bronze pots filled the brim, the bronze pots and cauldrons.

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Speaker 1: As soon as their aroma rises up, God on High

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Speaker 1: enjoys it with pleasure. The rich fragrance is right and proper.

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Speaker 1: For Hoji inaugurated the sacrifice with no fault or blemish.

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Speaker 1: His people have continued it to the present day. I

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Speaker 1: like the line on here about has the aroma rises up,

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Speaker 1: God on High enjoys it with pleasure because that that

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Speaker 1: is not unique to this poem or two Chinese religious traditions.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a common feature of many religions mentioning God,

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Speaker 1: enjoying God, or God's enjoying the smell of a burning sacrifice. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a there's a lot of this that

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Speaker 1: is that is ultimately a universe universal Um. It's it's

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Speaker 1: fascinating than now for the second episode in a row,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to also cite a children's book. Uh, this

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Speaker 1: is another children's book. This one is titled Two of Everything,

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Speaker 1: and Chinese American author Lily toy Hong wrote this It's

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Speaker 1: fun and she credits it as being based on a

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Speaker 1: Chinese folk tale. Um and I'd love to read another

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Speaker 1: telling of it, but I haven't been able to find

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Speaker 1: find what. I'm sure it's out there, but it does

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Speaker 1: involve some sort of a magical pot or cauldron in

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Speaker 1: this story, which is which has some some wonderful illustrations

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Speaker 1: an elderly couple in in China. And this has a

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Speaker 1: historical setting, by the way, so it's not I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's supposed to be like modern China. But this

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Speaker 1: elderly couple they happen to happen upon this pot or

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Speaker 1: this cauldron, and they quickly find out that anything you

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Speaker 1: drop or place inside the cauldron comes out duplicated. So

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Speaker 1: you can imagine how this story goes. You know, food,

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Speaker 1: gold gets duplicated, and finally somebody's gonna fall in that cauldron.

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Speaker 1: The old man falls in the cauldron, and now there

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Speaker 1: are two old men. So the story ultimately ends on

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Speaker 1: a happy note, with a couple deciding, Okay, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: put the pot away. We're not gonna use it unless

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Speaker 1: we absolutely have to. But by this point they're living

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Speaker 1: side by side with their own doppelgangers who have a

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Speaker 1: replica of everything that they have. So I was looking

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Speaker 1: around to try and find another version of this story

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Speaker 1: and I was not able to. But in the process

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Speaker 1: I found another story that includes cauldrons as a as

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Speaker 1: a key plot point that I think will transition into

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Speaker 1: something else we can talk about in a bit. It's

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Speaker 1: a a wonderful little story called the Wizard's Lesson. The

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Speaker 1: story appeared in the book Chinese Fairy Tales and Fantasies,

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Speaker 1: ed edited and translated by Moss Roberts, a professor of

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Speaker 1: East Asian Studies at n y U H. The original

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Speaker 1: title is to zoo Chun and it is included uh

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Speaker 1: in the sus Swan Kuai Lu, an early ninth century

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Speaker 1: CE collection compiled by Li Fu Yen Uh, though there

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Speaker 1: seemed to be some disagreements on the exact date of

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Speaker 1: when this this original text was was published or written.

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Speaker 1: This story is awesome. Yeah, um, I think at times perplexing.

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Speaker 1: I've seen some some online like some sort of blog

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Speaker 1: style discussions where people are like, what is this about?

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Speaker 1: But um, but it but it has some some wonderful

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Speaker 1: wizardry in it. So basically the story goes like this,

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Speaker 1: we have this character to zoo Chun, and he's a scoundrel. Basically,

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Speaker 1: he's spent all his money. He's burned all his friends

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Speaker 1: and family members, you know, borrowing money and so forth.

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Speaker 1: So he finds himself on the street with nothing, and

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Speaker 1: then up comes an old man and ask him, hey,

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Speaker 1: look there, buddy, how much money would it take to

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Speaker 1: set you right? Like how many how many strands of

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Speaker 1: coins will it take? And Tuzuchon names a sum and

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Speaker 1: the old man just kind of scoffs and he's like,

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Speaker 1: you should probably go higher than that, and he gives

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Speaker 1: him another sum, and the old man agrees, and he's

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Speaker 1: he gives him enough cash on the spot for a

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Speaker 1: night's rest somewhere and says, meet me tomorrow in the

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Speaker 1: market and I'll give you the full amount. So this

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Speaker 1: goes exactly as promised, and the next day he receives

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Speaker 1: his first millions from the old man like it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a true fortune, enough for him to have a real,

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Speaker 1: you know, proper start at rebuilding everything in his life,

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Speaker 1: and then some but you can imagine what happens next.

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Speaker 1: He immediately blows it all on a lavish lifestyle, and

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Speaker 1: before long he's back on the street again. Then here

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Speaker 1: comes the old man approaches him again, and this basically

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Speaker 1: the same thing happens one more, only this time he

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Speaker 1: squanders an even greater fortune. The third time, however, the

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Speaker 1: old man warns him that an even greater fortune won't

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Speaker 1: do the trick this time. Then there's clearly no helping him.

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Speaker 1: So finally Tuzo Chun has a change of heart. He

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Speaker 1: finally realizes, okay, who this old man has been so

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Speaker 1: kind and patient with me and just overly generous, and

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Speaker 1: I've done nothing for him. Uh. He has this change

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Speaker 1: of heart and realizes that he shouldn't be spending this

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Speaker 1: all on himself. He should try and do some good

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Speaker 1: in the world. And he tells the old Man that

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Speaker 1: he is going to do this. He's going to go

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Speaker 1: help the widows and the orphans, he's going to make

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Speaker 1: amends with family members and uh. And then at the end,

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Speaker 1: he's going to meet up with the old Man once

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Speaker 1: more and do right by him as well. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you might expect this to be the end of the story.

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Speaker 1: He's learned his lesson, but no, it keeps going. And

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Speaker 1: I I you know, this might be a situation where

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Speaker 1: you have sort of combined stories, you know, they become

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Speaker 1: one at some point. But um, what happens next is

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Speaker 1: the old man Uh. He you know, he goes out

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Speaker 1: in the world, he does all the things he's gonna do,

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Speaker 1: and he meets up with the old Man again. The

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Speaker 1: old Man takes him up to the mountain to a

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Speaker 1: splendid residence and inside here's an alchemist furnace, guarded by

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Speaker 1: a white tiger and a black dragon. Uh. It's written

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Speaker 1: that jade, white fairy women stand by, and the old

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Speaker 1: Man is no longer dressed like like the old man

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Speaker 1: that he met in the market. Those uh, those of

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Speaker 1: three times. No, now he's dressed in yellow and scarlet robes.

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Speaker 1: He's dressed as a dallast wizard. Oh so immediately at

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Speaker 1: this point, I'm like picturing him as played by Chining

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Speaker 1: Lamb from the Mr. Vampire movies. Yeah, yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: would be a wonderful stern performance of this character. So

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Speaker 1: at this point, he presents Touzun with a beaker of

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Speaker 1: wine and three white pills. He tells him to take

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Speaker 1: the pills, and no matter what happens, no matter what

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Speaker 1: he sees and the visions that are about to hit him,

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Speaker 1: he must not speak. Okay, I'm gonna read a quote

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Speaker 1: from the story here. Take care not to speak. The

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Speaker 1: wizard cautioned, be it revered spirit, vicious ghost, demon of hell,

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Speaker 1: wild beast, hell itself, or even your own closest relatives,

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Speaker 1: bound and tormented in a thousand ways, nothing you see

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Speaker 1: is truly real. It is essential that you neither speak

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Speaker 1: nor make any movement. Remain calm and fearless, and you

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Speaker 1: shall come to no harm. Never forget what I have said.

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Speaker 1: With that, the wizard departed okay, so none of it's

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Speaker 1: going to be real. As long as you keep your

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Speaker 1: mouth shut, you'll be all right, right, And then the

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Speaker 1: visions begin to hit him, so it's it's just kind

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Speaker 1: of like one wave of visions after the other. So

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Speaker 1: first a swarming army rides up on him in a

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Speaker 1: ten foot tall general and armor is just referred to

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Speaker 1: as the General comes up on an armored horse and

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Speaker 1: demands that he tell to identify himself. He remains quiet.

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Speaker 1: The general leaves in a rage. And then and then

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Speaker 1: to Tuzochone is tormented by snakes and spiders and other beasts.

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Speaker 1: There's a there's he's harassed by storms. This is the

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Speaker 1: devil rides out. This is the Christopher. Lee is like,

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Speaker 1: he's got him in the circle. Yeah yeah, instead, only

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Speaker 1: this time it's the circle is silence. He cannot break

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Speaker 1: that silence. Tuzu Chune, I'd rather see you dead than speak.

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Speaker 1: So after the storms, the general returns, and this time

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Speaker 1: he has his men place a great cauldron in front

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Speaker 1: of Tuzu Chun and uh and in the story it's

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00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 1: written the general return this time leading an ox headed

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Speaker 1: sergeant and his soldiers of hell together with other weird

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00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 1: faced ghosts. They placed a huge cauldron of boiling water

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Speaker 1: before tuzu Chun and closed in on him with spears,

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Speaker 1: swords and pitchforks, and so at this point they threatened

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00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 1: and they say, look, identify yourself or we're going to

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Speaker 1: boil you alive. He doesn't speak, So then they drag

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Speaker 1: his wife before him and they start beating her, and

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00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 1: he still refuses to speak, so they chop her up

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00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 1: into a little pieces, and he still doesn't say anything.

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00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 1: And finally the general denounces him as a quote master

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Speaker 1: of the Black Arts and has his soldiers behead him.

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Speaker 1: Well the scott gory, Yeah, it gets it gets gory,

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00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 1: and hurry this story. Yeah, but but we've got to

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Speaker 1: remember what was said at the beginning. The Taoist wizard

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00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 1: promised him none of this is going to be real.

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Speaker 1: It's just visions. Just don't say anything, right, So then

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00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 1: to zu chun soul passes on and he become and

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Speaker 1: he comes before the King of the Dead, who identifies him.

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00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 1: He says, hey, you're that heretic and orders him cast

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Speaker 1: into the Hell's quote zu Chun tasted the torments of

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Speaker 1: hell to the fullest molten bronze, the iron rod, pounding grinding,

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Speaker 1: the fire pit, the boiling cauldron, the hill of knives,

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Speaker 1: the forest of swords. But he kept the wizard's words

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Speaker 1: firmly in mind and bore the pain without letting a

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00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 1: moan pass his lips. Then the tortures reported to the

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Speaker 1: king that the punishments were completed. And at this point

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Speaker 1: the King of the dead says, Okay, that's good. Uh,

359
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,199
Speaker 1: he can go on and be reincarnated. Now, let's have

360
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: him reincarnated as a woman. And so he's born again

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Speaker 1: as a small female child. And now the female to

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Speaker 1: Zoo Chun as an infant, still doesn't cry out, grows

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Speaker 1: up a mute Mary's has a child herself at this point,

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00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 1: and then her husband finally like has an episode and

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00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: and and accused and accuses her of being improper by

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Speaker 1: refusing to speak to him, and murders their child before her.

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Speaker 1: So finally, after a life and it's yet, it's it's brutal,

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00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: and after a life time of silence, now she finally

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00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 1: breaks her vow and unleashes a cry of anguish. And

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00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: at this point the whole vision collapses, and once more,

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Speaker 1: Here's to Zoo Chun himself again, still seated in the

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Speaker 1: Wizard's pavilion, with an empty wine flask in his hand,

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Speaker 1: and the wizards just cursing at him for failing. He

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00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: tells him, if he'd only remain silent a little longer,

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Speaker 1: you have been able to purify yourself of all your passions.

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00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 1: You'd already purified yourself of all your passions except for love,

377
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: and you blew it. And now you're not going to

378
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: be immortal. That is harsh, you know, he already he

379
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: got killed, He had watched all his people get killed.

380
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: He got killed, he got sent to hell, tortured in hell,

381
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: then lived a whole other life. But but the Wizard

382
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: is like, you just had to hold out a little

383
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: bit longer. How was he supposed to know how long

384
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,919
Speaker 1: it would be? Yeah, he had no idea. He was

385
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: just supposed to keep going. But supposedly he was close,

386
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: like this was the last testing. It was not able

387
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: to overcome it. Remember how this started with this guy

388
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 1: like blowing all his money on parties. Yeah, yeah, it

389
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: is a it's a weird story. And when I may,

390
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 1: I may have to look into more to see if

391
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: I can, uh, you know, grasp the some of the

392
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 1: the deeper meanings involved here, but on the surface level,

393
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 1: like coming back to cauldrons, it does feature cauldrons twice,

394
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 1: and both of them in a very threatening manner. The

395
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 1: idea that if you don't speak, I'm going to boil

396
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: you alive, and then once you're in Hell you may

397
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 1: be boiled as well. Well, this would not be the

398
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: only vision of of hell or negative afterlife that involved boiling,

399
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: and in fact, there are some famous boiling uh puddles,

400
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,959
Speaker 1: ponds and rivers in Dante's Inferno, though I don't recall

401
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: there ever being a cauldron. Maybe there is. I think

402
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 1: they're just various boiling rivers and puddles. Well, Paul Morabelais

403
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 1: mentions this the things just as a brief aside, because

404
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think for starters the papers mostly mostly

405
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: dealing with Asian visions of hell, but mentions that there

406
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: are certain saints who had visions of hell and they

407
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 1: might mention boiling, but they don't mention cauldrons. And part

408
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 1: of that could be the legacy of sacred cauldrons in

409
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: some of the European traditions, the pre Christian European traditions

410
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: that will discuss in the future, like the idea being

411
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: that if the cauldron is sacred, you would not find

412
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: that in hell, and of course that might you might

413
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: well ask, well, what are you guys talking about? You

414
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: just you've already talked about sacred cauldrons in Chinese traditions,

415
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: and here they are popping up in Chinese Hell. What's

416
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: going on there? Well, I we'll get back to that,

417
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: and I think it will ultimately wind up making sense.

418
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, clearly, whatever it's particular religious significance, I think

419
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: it's also got to be highlighted in this story just

420
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: because it's like a horrific way to threaten somebody with

421
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: death right. And and you know, certainly when we start

422
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: talking about weird forms of capital punishment and execution, I

423
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: mean that the line between that and human sacrifice is

424
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: often a bit blurred. You know, both spectacles are are

425
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: doing something beyond simply uh, killing an individual or burning

426
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: a piece of meat, that sort of thing. Yeah, and

427
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: sometimes in history they appear to have been sort of

428
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: the same thing that, like some human sacrifice in history

429
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: was clearly carried out on people who were leave to

430
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: have committed some kind of crime, or people who were

431
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: like prisoners of war right, and so death by boiling

432
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: pops up many times in global tales and traditions, often

433
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: as often as a meanance of state execution for all

434
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: sorts of things like sorcerers, bandits, counterfeiters, poisoners, and traders. Uh.

435
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: Some accounts maybe legendary, but there are plenty of very

436
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: believable historic cases of boiling executions, and it was practiced

437
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 1: into the sixteenth century in France and Germany as a

438
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 1: punishment for clipping coins. This is when you would scrape

439
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: the edges off of coins and then melt those scrapings

440
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: down to make new coins, a practice that was finally

441
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: defeated by milling the edges of coins. Yeah, several of

442
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: the main examples I found of actual use of capital

443
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: punishment by boiling took place in England and the sixteenth century,

444
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: where it was apparently used as a as a punishment

445
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: for poisoning. There was famously a guy named Richard Rousse

446
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: who made some horridge that they I think he was

447
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: a cook, and he made some poison porridge that poisoned

448
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: like a bishop, and then just a bunch of other

449
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: people who happened to eat it, and at least a

450
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: couple of people died and he was put to death

451
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: through a public boiling. It was pretty curaresome, very criesome.

452
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting, like I guess with the with the

453
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: with the clipping of coins, they're sort of, hey, if

454
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: you you boil clippings from our money, will boil you.

455
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: Sort of a thing like you you melt money, you

456
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: get melted. I'm not sure exactly what the poisoning thing is,

457
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: excepted like poisoning was just something they really wanted to to,

458
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: uh to to to draw a line on, you know,

459
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: and say, look, this is really bad and therefore you

460
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: get boiled if you do it. Yeah. I can't prove this,

461
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: but I have a gut suspicion, and it's that poisoning

462
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: is a type of crime that is especially horrifying to

463
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: kings and royal people. Uh you know, it's it's the

464
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: kind of thing they could imagine happening to them. Don't

465
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 1: mess with the king's money or the king's food. Both

466
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: must be deterred in the strongest sense. Um. It's also

467
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: interesting looking at the the European use of boiling executions,

468
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: because you would see this tradition later on as you know,

469
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: tales were being told of what what is surely going

470
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: on in various foreign parts of the world, be at

471
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: Africa or Asia. Uh, you know there would be the

472
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 1: especially in like sort of the pulp era. Uh, this

473
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: idea of of boiling people is something that the other does,

474
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: whereas history tells them. I mean, certainly there are examples

475
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: of boiling in various cultures, but but clearly there was

476
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: a long history of it occurring in Europe as well.

477
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, clearly you can see that as just part

478
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: of a fiction that sort of exotic sizes other parts

479
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: of the world by imagining like horrific, horrific things that

480
00:27:54,080 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: might happen there, probably without any evidential basis than now.

481
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: Turning briefly to Greek mythology, of course, we have to

482
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: remember that, uh, this is boiling alive is the way

483
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: that the master artificer uh Datalust kills King Minos, trapping

484
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: him in a bath that boils him alive. Um clever,

485
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: And this it seems like the very sort of revenge

486
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: that data List would use against his enemy. Oh, I

487
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: didn't remember that part of the story. That's interesting. I

488
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: believe it is depicted in one of the Jim Hinson

489
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: Greek storyteller episodes. They have I think two different ones

490
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: that involved data lists. But back to Eastern depictions of Hell.

491
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: So um, there's that line in Big Trouble in Little China.

492
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: I believe it's from the Uh, the character Eddie who says, uh,

493
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: the Chinese have a lot of Hell's um. And indeed

494
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: you'll you find Eastern depictions of Hell. Often they will

495
00:28:54,840 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: include generally eighteen different um die you or under worlds.

496
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: And the exact nature of these hell's or underworld's vary

497
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: from text to text, but each one has a different flavor.

498
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: They are different, like this is where you encounter the

499
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: hill of knives, or this is the one where you

500
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: encounter the boiling feces, that sort of thing. Several of

501
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: them were listed in that passage I read earlier from

502
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: the story of the Wizard's Lesson, and I actually don't

503
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: know the answer here with these. Also, like in some

504
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: of the classic Christian depictions of Hell, have specific tortures

505
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: for people who's depending on their characteristic sin. Yes, absolutely,

506
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: and in case in this case, the the hell of

507
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: of oil cauldrons would be reserved for thieves and a

508
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: few other kind of related transgressions. Now at this point,

509
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: I'd like to come back to that Paul Marabelais article

510
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: Visions of Asian Hell, in which he discusses Asian visions

511
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: of hell at length, and as as mentioned previously, he

512
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: singles out the alchemical nature of cauldrons and Chinese traditions,

513
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: which is, it seems very key here. So on the

514
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: mundane level, it is a piece of technology that allows

515
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: us to transform the nature of various ingredients into food,

516
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: and then on the sacred level, it allows us to

517
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: transform flesh into something befitting of a god. And so

518
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: Marabola discusses examples of boiling cauldrons and the hells of

519
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: Tibetan buddhism Um, which, to remind everyone, does center around

520
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: the continuation of souls within the wheel of sam Sorrow,

521
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: which is a karma based system in which souls tumble

522
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: through incarnations that may be human or animal, but may

523
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: also be incarnations such as you know, hungry ghosts, heavenly

524
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: and powerful davas or in or indeed you might be

525
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: reborn into the hell realms of Naraka. And the goal

526
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: is ultimately, in the grand scheme of Buddhism, to remove

527
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: oneself from this endless wheel and attain freedom from the

528
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: cycle of death and rebirth, because that's the only way

529
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: to just sort of win. I guess you would say, like,

530
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: if you keep playing the game of sam Sara, you're

531
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: just gonna pinball around, you know. So you might, you

532
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: might ascend on high into the form of a demigod adeva.

533
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: But then perhaps all that power and wrath that you

534
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: have at your disposal that ends up corrupting you and

535
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: propels your soul back down into the hell realm. So

536
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: the hell's in this case, they're not really It's not

537
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: about permanent suffering like you encounter in some interpretations of

538
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: Western depictions of Christian hell, where it's like, well, you

539
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: screwed up, you went with the wrong side, now you're

540
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: in hell. For let's say, ever, uh No, in this case,

541
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: hell is a place you're moving through. Your soul is

542
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: moving through here, and you'll uh in all likelihood be

543
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: reincarnated into a different incarnation in one of these other realms. So,

544
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: as Miroboli discusses these visions often depicted in art, they

545
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: already have this um this this feel of transformation or

546
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: purging to them. Um So demonic beings might be cooking

547
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: human souls, but to what end? Right, we have to

548
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: remember that cooking is a transformation, and the form of

549
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: cooking in the cauldron of sacrifice is supernaturally so oh interesting,

550
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: So I think I see the connection he's making here

551
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: the same way you might, uh say, in in some

552
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: Chinese traditions use a ding or a cauldron to to

553
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: make a burnt sacrifice um to the gods in order

554
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: to to appease them to improve your fortune. In for example,

555
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: this Buddhist vision of Hell, you may also be put

556
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: into a cauldron yourself, but in this in a similar way,

557
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: are transformed into something potentially holier. Yes, And this ends

558
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: up being reflected in Dallas traditions as well, which Endaoism

559
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: is perhaps more concerned with transformation of the soul or

560
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: self and immortality, but it ends up being influenced by

561
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: Buddhism when Buddhism Uh enters into China from India roughly

562
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: two thousand years ago. Uh And so, in considering images

563
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: of cauldrons in Hell and the Chinese temple of ching

564
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: Hwong in Linza Shoe in western China, Mirabel says quote,

565
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: in fact, we could interpret the dallast Hell as some

566
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: enormous cauldron into which have been poured the ingredients necessary

567
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: to permutate the present state of imperfect beings into their

568
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: possible perfection by long and painstaking alchemical assimilations. Interesting. Yeah,

569
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: so I really love that, uh, that idea. And again

570
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: it comes back to again that question question. You might ask, well,

571
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: if if the if some Europeans were hesitant to take

572
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: take a sort of divine um legacy of the cauldron

573
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: and then place it into pictions of hell, even if

574
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: you're dealing sort of different religious traditions, why would you

575
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 1: see it in Chinese traditions? And I think it is

576
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: because you have this different view of what what Hell

577
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: is doing, this idea that these depictions of torment are

578
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: not about like in game suffering, they are about changing

579
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: you into something else, which is the purpose of the daying,

580
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: the purpose of the cauldron, whether you're dealing with the

581
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: process on Earth or something more celestial or indeed something

582
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: in one of the hell's And I should also point out, yeah,

583
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: that you also see this this these visions of of

584
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: hell outside of Chinese traditions and and outside of of

585
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: Indian divisions, is also pops up in Japanese views of

586
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: of of Hell and so forth. All Right, we're gonna

587
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 1: go ahead and close out this episode then, but I'd

588
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there if you have

589
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: additional things you'd like to add about Chinese traditions of cauldrons,

590
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: be they the you know, the nine cauldrons of You

591
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: the Great, or or these various depictions of Dallast and

592
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 1: Buddhist hell. Uh. I'd love to hear from anyone out there. Likewise,

593
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: any any sort of pop culture and fiction related treatments

594
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: of cauldrons that kind of match up with what we've

595
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: discussed here today totally. In the meantime, if you want

596
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

597
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: you can find those episodes and the Stuff to Blow

598
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: your Mind podcast feed. On Tuesdays and Thursdays we publish

599
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: our core episodes. Those are the main episodes of Stuff

600
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. And then on Monday's we do

601
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: listener mail. On Wednesday's we do a short form monster

602
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: fact or artifact episode. In on Friday's, uh, you know,

603
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: we cut loose, We put aside most serious concerns and

604
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 1: we just talk about a strange film huge thanks as

605
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If

606
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

607
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

608
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

609
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

610
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind. It's production

611
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614
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