WEBVTT - #191 Jason Flom with Ru-El Sailor 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.720 Best friends, Cordel Hubbard and Ruel Sailor, were small time 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:10.600 dealers on the East side of Cleveland. On November sixteenth, 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:13.760 two thousand and two, Cordell's sister Nicole was out partying 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.520 with some friends. She fronted the group twenty bucks for drugs, 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.200 but felt taken advantage of when she only got ten 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.480 dollars back from the group of five. When she spoke up, 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.360 a gun was pulled on her, so she called Cordel. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.520 While celebrating a birthday at a bar with a large 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:33.760 group including will Sizemore and Ruelle, Cordell answered the call 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.040 from Nicole and took Sizemore along to confront the two 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.120 men who had done her wrong, Omar Clark and Clark 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.360 Lamar Williams. They pulled up on these men on a 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.400 darkened street, and Sizemore initially got out of the passenger 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.680 side and confronted them about his sister, leading witnesses to 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.280 believe that the passenger was Cordel. Cordell got out of 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.880 the driver's side. Omar Clark pulled a gun and Cordell 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:00.320 shot him in self defense, while the other man, Williams, 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:02.520 got caught with a bullet in his buttocks as he 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:07.000 ran away. Ruel was clearly not involved, but his tight 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.280 friendship with Cordel and his days in the streets would 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.360 come back to haunt him. A corrupt vice detective who 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.400 had once vowed to get Ruel would use this opportunity, 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.600 claiming an informant had told him that Ruel was the 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:24.120 other man with Cordell while threatening and coercing Ruel's alibi 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:28.800 witnesses into silence. Even with Cordell taking full responsibility and 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:33.000 naming Will Sizemore as the other man before sentencing, Ruel 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:38.400 still spent fifteen years behind bars. This is Wrongful Conviction 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:58.000 with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.160 That's me. I'm your host, and today, if I was 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:03.880 going to title this episode, I would call it Web 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.440 of Lies, because this case was built on so many 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.480 different layers of lies, so many different people had to 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:12.960 tell in order to convict an innocent man named Ruel 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:16.000 Sailor of murder and other charges. So we'll get right 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.640 into it. First of all, I want to introduce the 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:22.960 woman who was responsible for Ruel winning his freedom a 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.600 couple of years ago. Jennifer Passion Bergeron, who is the 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.800 deputy director of the Ohio Innocence Project. So, Jennifer, welcome 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:31.480 to Ronful Conviction. Thank you. 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.840 It's good to be here. I would be remiss if 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.160 I didn't give a shout out to Kim Carral too, 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.360 because she was in private attorney that worked with me 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:39.000 on this case. 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:44.080 Thank you for doing that. And without further Ado Ruel Sailor, 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:45.760 welcome to Ronfuel Conviction. 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:47.320 Thank you for having me. 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.960 And let's start in the beginning. So did you grow 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:50.760 up in Cleveland. 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.040 Yes, on the east side, the Saint Clair area in 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.919 the east side of Cleveland. My mother, for as I remember, 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.560 she always was a nurse. Sometimes he worked two three 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.880 shifts a day. My father he was there. Then he 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.040 wasn't there. He was in the streets. But then I 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.360 had started get older, I had to be there to 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.720 help out with my siblings. I have a younger brother 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.720 and sister. So once my dad wasn't there, it was 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.440 just us. And then as a teenager, I took more 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:19.760 into the streets than school because I felt like I 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:21.920 had to help my mom with my siblings. So I 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.040 begin like to sell drugs at a young age and 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:25.959 I drop out of high school in like tenth grade. 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:30.600 Tell us about Cordell Hubbard, because he really is a 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.359 central figure and this really crazy crime. 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.920 Well black history of Cordell Hubbard. Me and Cordell Hubbard 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:42.480 met in third grade and for some reason we ended 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.400 up in the same class every grade throughout our whole 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:47.920 entire school year up until high school. So he was 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.080 always best friends and Jennifer. 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.920 This started from a drug deal gone bad, right, but 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.320 a very minor drug deal at that And this goes 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.560 back to the night of November sixteenth of two thousand 0:03:59.560 --> 0:03:59.880 and two. 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:02.160 One of the people that we'll be talking about is 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:04.720 Clark Lamar Williams, and we'll just refer to him as 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.200 Williams just to try to make it simpler. My understanding 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:15.280 is Nicole Hubbard was with Omar Clark and Williams and 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.479 a couple of her friends that night and they were driving. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.279 Omar Clark and Williams should buy a wet cigarette, one 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.640 cigarette with PCP and I guess it was twenty bucks 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.200 and Nicole fronted the twenty bucks. So when they stopped, 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.400 I think it was Omar Clark that went in to 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.280 get the money to pay her back. But didn't come 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.920 back with twenty bucks, came back with only ten bucks, 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:40.080 apparently because everyone had taken turns smoking, so I guess 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:41.960 he figured he only needed to pay half of it. 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.359 I don't know, but in any case, this did not 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.040 go over well with the Cole Hubbard, and my understanding 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.280 is Omar pulled a gun on her and that's when 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.000 she called her brother and things escalated from there. 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:56.480 Me and Grardill Hubbard, he was happening to be out 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.840 sun to brain one of our friends' birthdays. He's had 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:02.719 a bar and Cordell had received a phone call from 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:07.160 his sister and Nicole Hubbert. Him and William Sizemore left 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.120 the board and he was at and went to go 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.640 confront these guys about his sister to go see about 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.360 her well being, because he thought she was still there, 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:17.560 and when he got there, she was gone. To my 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.120 understanding from when I was told like Oldmark Clark pulled 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.040 a gun on Cordell Hubbard twice and Cordell Hubbard shot 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:24.359 Openmark Clark in self defense. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.479 Omar Clark was shot eleven times and mister Williams was 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.719 running away from the scene and was shot. He was 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.560 lucky to be shot in the butt and therefore not 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.520 badly hurt. And the two men drove off afterwards. 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.960 And so the witnesses that was on the scene had 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:46.919 confused the driver and the passenger. William Sizemore was the passenger. 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.960 ForDeal Hubbert was the driver, and William Sizemore got out 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.120 and confronted the individuals saying, what do I do to 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.799 my sister? So the witnesses on that street automatically assumed 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.320 that the brother was the passenger, and that's where the 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.320 confusion came at. So they always had put Cordell on 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.320 the passenger side, and they didn't know who the driver was. 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.880 So when they arrested Cordell for this crime, they was 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.880 charging him as an accomplice because the driver was the 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.920 shooter and they didn't have a second person. And going 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:17.760 back to my history in the streets, there was a 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.159 vice cop from my neighborhood that particularly didn't get along 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.240 with me per se, and he had planned drugs on 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.240 me once before and I didn't go to prison, and 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.880 he felt that I said with the prison. He told 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.120 me that he would get me one day. And so 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.600 when Cordell name came up in his crime, they automatically 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.160 just assumed I was with Cordell because we've always been 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:39.440 together for so many years, and everyone knew that we 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.920 were best friends. So this cop told the homicide detectives 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.839 that he had a complicitive informant, which was never named, 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:50.039 never brought up during our trial, just his word. He 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.839 had a complicatory informant told him that I was the 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:54.960 driver and that I was the shooter, and I was 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:56.360 arrested based upon that. 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.240 And then we fast forward, of course, to March twenty six, 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.000 two thousand three, and a grand jury indicted you, well, 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:07.440 right on charges of murder, kidnapping, and assault. But I 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:11.000 mean the alibi it's pretty strong in this case, right, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.920 I mean he was miles and miles away across town 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:15.440 with lots of other people, right. 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.120 Yes, we have several affidavits from different people later on 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:24.600 who could have potentially testified at the trial, but they 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.840 also said in their appidats that they were threatened by 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.040 the police if they did show up to testify. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.280 Now, the case went to trial in May of two 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.480 thousand and three, and all three of you were tried together. 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.360 First of all, it seems like a very quick turnaround, 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.480 and I can't leave out the fact that when I 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.640 see the words Cyahoga County, I immediately get the chills, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.960 because we keep hearing about cases from Cuyahoga County wrongful 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.720 conviction one after the other. 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.720 I was indicted more twenty six. I was arrested April second, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.840 Whdell Hubbard was already indicted and was out on bond 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.880 and his court date prior to me being arrested. The 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.360 state didn't have any witnesses to come to court, so 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.840 the judge, Nancy MacDonald told were they owe, his lawyers 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.200 and the prosecutors that she was going to reschedule next 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:18.640 court date for May nineteenth. To my understanding that they 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.600 didn't come May nineteenth with witnesses, that the case would 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.480 be thrown out. In the midst of that, I was 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:29.440 arrested and they added Cordell and the code to my 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.800 new indictment, but kept they saying court date May nineteenth 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:36.319 was their original court date to start a trial. Or 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.360 lawyers who I was separate trial, they denied as a 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.560 separate trial, and I had to nearly prepare for a 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.199 murder trial from April second to May nineteen. 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.840 Jennifer, this all sounds pretty irregular, even amongst the crazy 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.240 shit we hear week to week on this podcast. 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:55.400 Well, I can't imagine as an attorney trying to get 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.120 ready for a murder case in basically a month. So 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.440 that set the whole stage for things to just go 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.040 downhill because there just wasn't time to do the type 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.560 of investigation that would have been necessary to mount the 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:08.360 proper defense. 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.400 By the time I had put my witness list together, 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.040 the detective on my case, before I can even make 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.800 calls to get to these witnesses, he had already got 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.560 to them. The board that I was at, he got 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:23.679 to the owner and he told her that if she 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:25.640 came to court of my defense, he would he would 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.840 get her board raided, like raided for drugs and shut down, 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:30.880 like he was like playing drugs at her bar. And 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.200 he's known for this throughout our neighborhood, so she didn't 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.000 want to jeopardize her business, which I understand. And then 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.280 my other witnesses neighbors in the street life as well, 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.040 and he went to them and threatened them with planning 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.760 drugs on them and getting those guys cases, so they 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:46.959 didn't come to court. So when it came time for trial, 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.640 I didn't have any out of out witnesses that was 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.200 on my list to come to court, because this detective 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.000 had when it spoke to all of them and threatened 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:55.560 them not to come to court. 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:57.680 So you didn't have a shot in l when it 0:09:57.720 --> 0:09:59.480 really comes down to it. And I don't think the 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.480 best lawyer in the world could have helped you out 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.640 of that situation with what they were willing to do, 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.480 the links they were willing to go to. So the trial, 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.880 did you think, after having seen all the worst of 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.120 what our quote unquote justice system has to offer, did 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.960 you think that you still had a chance to be acquitted. 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.120 I was skeptical because my jury wasn't of my peers. 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:24.120 Majority of my jury were older, white people from suburban areas. 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.439 And so the biggest thing in this case was identification. 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:33.800 There was no physical evidence, no scientific evidence, no bullets cases, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.440 none of that. The witnesses in this case described the 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:42.720 two individuals as two light skinned males that looked like brothers. 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.760 For they'll hover, it's the same skin complexion as Steph Curry, 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.520 and you would put me as the same complexion as 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.240 maybe Lebron James or Dwayne Wade maybe. And I'm sitting 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.480 there and I'm like, these human beings in this jury 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.080 box has to understand that me and Cordell Hubbard could 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.920 never look alike on no scene, no setting, whatsoever, two 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.319 different shades of color completely. But when you get a 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.679 jury that's not from my culture of my background, they 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.400 just see two African Americans, so it was a different 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.440 I didn't know that, but I know now. I'm just 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:16.640 thinking that everybody knows about light skin and dark skin, 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.000 and that's just common sense. I wasn't aware that there 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.560 are people that live in this world that don't know that. 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.640 So the jury comes back in what was that moment 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:28.640 or those moments like for you. 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.640 It was a moment of clarity, because before you go 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.240 through those things, you feel like nobody goes to jail 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.000 that didn't do anything unless you know somebody that's actually innocent. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:41.800 So I'm sitting there and I'm like, they just found 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.040 me guilty of something I didn't even see. I wasn't 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.400 even nowhere nearer the scene of the crime, hadn't been 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:49.840 nowhere near that side of the town or anything. But 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.840 to make it even worse that I'm being convicted of 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.720 a crime that the man standing next to me actually 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.200 committed and here I am being found guilty of a 0:11:58.200 --> 0:11:59.000 crime I never saw. 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.120 This episode is brought to you by Stand Together. Stand 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.400 Together is a philanthropic community dedicated to helping. 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:16.520 People improve their lives. 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.440 For more than twenty years, Stand Together and its partners 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.000 have been on the front lines of criminal justice reform. 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.520 By empowering people to take action, supporting nonprofits, and working 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.120 with businesses, Stand Together tackles the root causes of problems 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.120 in our communities and empowers those closest to the problems 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.719 to drive solutions. Solutions like reducing unjust prison sentences through 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.199 the First Step Act, empowering community based programs and help 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.119 people re enter society, and now working to bridge divides 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.320 in our communities. To learn how you may get involved, 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:55.319 visit standtogether dot org slash conviction. This episode is underwritten 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.280 by the AIG pro Bono Program. AIG is a leading 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.600 global insurance company, and for over a decade, the AIG 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.120 pro Bono Program has provided thousands of hours of free 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.680 legal services and other support to nonprofit organizations and individuals 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.600 most in need. More recently, the program added criminal and 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.920 social justice reform as a key pillar of its mission. 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.120 It was an even heavier blow between me being convicted 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.560 and me going to prison, because Creil Hubber comes forward 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.680 and he admits that he killed Omar Clark, and he 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.880 admits that William Sizon World was with him and that 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:39.840 I was nowhere near that, and that he played on 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.720 my innocence to get free, and now he wants to 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:44.680 tell the truth. So when we get ready to go 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.960 to Sensing, the plan is he selling his attorney that 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.920 when we go to Senson there were news cameras in 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.120 there and media in there, So he was saying like, 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.280 I'm going to speak the truth in front of the 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.160 cameras and blow this whole thing up. So I don't 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.079 know if his lawyer plays both sides or what. But 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:05.200 we go to Sencent and are judged. She kicks the 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.199 media out of the courtroom before court starts. Cordial still 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.559 confesses to the crime, and she still convicts me right 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.640 there on the spot, sends me to twenty eight years 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:14.040 to life. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.439 He's actually solving the case for them, right, he's identified, 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.120 which took some courage. I mean it was too it 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:22.920 was too late as it turns out, but it did 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.560 take some courage. Hubbard signed a Swan statement right claiming 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.000 that Rouel was not with him at the crime scene, 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:32.600 and he said it was quote unquote, it was a 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.560 guy named Will and he meant by that Will size bore. 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:37.600 And it goes on to say, I didn't think it 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.480 was going to turn out like this. I didn't think 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.000 my best friend would get convicted as a shooter. But 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:43.240 he wasn't even there. 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.960 So I have to follow a new trial motion based 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:50.560 on Cordell's affidavit amanting to this crime. We sent subpoenas 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.400 to William Sizemore. So we have this retrial here where 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:58.000 we present all to the courts. Cordeal takes the stand 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:02.080 at the retrial here stead he killed Omar Clark, describes 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.560 the whole night in detail, how it happened, how he left, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.280 everything that happens. Before Cordell can make it back to 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.480 his seats, he denies me a new trial, then sends 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:13.040 me to prison. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.840 Jennifer, help us out here. What was going on here 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.960 that they were so actively disinterested in knowing what really happened. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.040 I don't have an answer for that. I don't know 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.880 how you could hear that testimony and not try to 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:28.680 fix this wrong. 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.440 So, I mean, years go by and we're all the 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:37.200 way to twenty thirteen, when you filed another petition asking 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.200 for a new trial based on another sworn AFFI, David, right, right, 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:42.840 Do you want to walk us through that. 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.880 You Mark Clark, the victim's brother, Omark Clark's brother. He 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.640 was heavily involved in the whole entire investigation. And that's 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.200 how a lot of things worked out on the Cordell 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.600 and the Cole Hubberd side, because you work. Clark would 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.680 go talk to the witnesses, he would go talk to Williams, 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.600 and he would go relay everything he found out in 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.600 the streets to the police, and that's how they found 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.400 out who Cordell and the Cole Hover even was. Fast forward. 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.840 You Mark Clarker's in prison. I write him a letter 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.560 and he writes me back. He tells me that days 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.560 after trial he knew the truth. William Sizemore had came 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.880 forward to him and told him that he was with 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.840 Cordell the night of the shooting, that Cordell killed his brother. 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.680 He said, Man, send a lawyer at me, or send 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.000 an investigator at me. I'll do an affidavit. So I'm 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.720 thinking this was the mother load right here. So I'll 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.480 get the affidavit. I found me a new trial motion again, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.880 this newly discovered evidence. The same judge, Nancy McDonald. 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.239 I feel like it would be a more objective process 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.480 if it was a different judge. But she denied that 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.520 petition without a hearing. The petition's dismissal was upheld on 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.680 appeal in twenty fourteen. And then how did you end 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.560 up contacting the Ohio Innocence Project. 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.920 I had wrote to the Ohio Interest Project. They never 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.320 denied my case, they just at the times that I 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.720 wrote them. They responded saying they had a heavy case load. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.359 So I understood that I'm going to keep fighting and 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.119 keep building evidence as I go, so if they do 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.520 come along, I'll have enough. And in the midst of that, 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:17.040 I had retained the attorney, amazing attorney, Kimberly Curel, my wife, 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.639 Amy Saylor, my family. They was out here and they 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.360 was be down doors having rallies. And then Kyle Swinson 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:25.720 from the Scene magazine had did an article on me 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.320 and I had like a ten pay spread and the 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:32.119 Ohio Interest Project and then they had contacted me. They 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.480 had seen the traction I had with my cases was going. 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.920 They looked into it, and Jennifer and this student Andrew 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.840 and Ruby, they came to see me I was in 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.520 Ohio State Penitentiary and went over my case and I 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:45.280 just I just knew right then and there, like I 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:46.120 was about to go home. 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.760 So, Jennifer, how did you crack this case? 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.199 There was really nothing to crack. I mean, by the 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.760 time we got the case, we knew exactly what had 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.919 happened because everybody had already explained that Cordell admitted he 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.920 was the shooter. We knew William Sizemore it admitted he 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.440 was the second person there, and so there really wasn't 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.320 anything to solve. We knew from the get go that 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:10.720 Ruel wasn't there and had nothing to do with it. 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:15.879 The challenge was to convince the prosecutor in the court 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.480 to let him out of prison since he was innocent, 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.480 and that's what took a long time. So in the 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.800 spring of twenty sixteen, I think his other attorney, Kim, 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.960 we started working cooperatively together to try to figure out 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:33.239 a plan to get Ruel out and then we were 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.359 kind of working with additional investigation to try to find 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.280 anything else we could, and that's where we got additional 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:43.200 affidavits from some of the alibi witnesses and from Nicole Hubbard. 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.280 And because he'd already filed as we were talking about, 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.879 before these new trial motions that had been denied, it 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.280 looked like the best path for him was to try 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:57.280 the conviction Integrity Unit that had opened in Cuyahoga County. 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:04.320 My whole time at prison, every attorney, every investigator, everybody 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.880 always told me like, if William Sizemore was to ever 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.240 come forward and tell the truth, that's your go to key, 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:14.200 you walking out of prison. So I'm in Lucasville and 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.760 I get a phone called and Kim is crying. As 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.439 soon as I called, I'm like, why why is she crying? 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.120 She's like, William Sizemore just went to the prosecutor's office 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.440 and told the truth. So in my mind, they about 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.399 to come pop my door in the next five minutes 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.520 and I'm about to walk out of here. It didn't 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:33.639 happen like that, though, Like I still sat in prison 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.760 for like almost eight nine months. After William Sizemore came 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.480 forward and told the truth and the prosecutors from the CiU, 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.679 Russell tied him and Kim came to see me and 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:47.040 he's like, well, we gotta do some more investigating. And 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:50.000 at this point, William Sizemore has admitted that he was 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.200 with Cordial Hubbard and that Cordill Hubbard shot Odmark Clark 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.440 in self defense and said that old Mark Clark had 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.400 a gun. Williams had came forward and recanted and said 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.760 he never saw me a day of his life and 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.639 that they made him say that I was the shooter. 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:09.320 My witness is body Netto's Anthony McKenzie. They've came forward 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.360 and told the truth that they was threatened. Correll has admitted, 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.680 So I have all this evidence mounted with me saying 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:18.440 that I'm innocent, and the prosecutor told me that he 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.119 had to go do more investigation and was going to 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.000 leave me in prison. So I had to ask, well, 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.879 where's William sideboard and he told me William Sizemore was 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.760 at home because he didn't see him as a suspect. 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.000 The system is not built right at all. 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.639 Was there a worst moment in that fifteen years, in 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.000 that very very dark place where you almost gave up, 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.320 or where it's just a moment of absolute despair And 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.280 at the same time, what was the happiest moment. 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.320 Well, the happiest moment would be they told me I 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.200 was going home. But just a quick how I went 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:56.080 from dark to light. I was in Lucasville and it's 0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:00.520 like the worst prison in Ohio, hands down. And I 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:01.840 was I was on a straight path. I was stayed 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:03.840 out of trouble, and I was trying to get my 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.600 status dropped so I can go to a lower level prison. 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.200 And right before I went up to get up my 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.760 status dropped for a lower level prison, I was a 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.399 porter and a dust pan had came up missing. Now, 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.840