1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Best friends, Cordel Hubbard and Ruel Sailor, were small time 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: dealers on the East side of Cleveland. On November sixteenth, 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and two, Cordell's sister Nicole was out partying 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: with some friends. She fronted the group twenty bucks for drugs, 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: but felt taken advantage of when she only got ten 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: dollars back from the group of five. When she spoke up, 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: a gun was pulled on her, so she called Cordel. 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: While celebrating a birthday at a bar with a large 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: group including will Sizemore and Ruelle, Cordell answered the call 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: from Nicole and took Sizemore along to confront the two 11 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: men who had done her wrong, Omar Clark and Clark 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: Lamar Williams. They pulled up on these men on a 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: darkened street, and Sizemore initially got out of the passenger 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: side and confronted them about his sister, leading witnesses to 15 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: believe that the passenger was Cordel. Cordell got out of 16 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: the driver's side. Omar Clark pulled a gun and Cordell 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: shot him in self defense, while the other man, Williams, 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: got caught with a bullet in his buttocks as he 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: ran away. Ruel was clearly not involved, but his tight 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: friendship with Cordel and his days in the streets would 21 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: come back to haunt him. A corrupt vice detective who 22 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: had once vowed to get Ruel would use this opportunity, 23 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: claiming an informant had told him that Ruel was the 24 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: other man with Cordell while threatening and coercing Ruel's alibi 25 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: witnesses into silence. Even with Cordell taking full responsibility and 26 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: naming Will Sizemore as the other man before sentencing, Ruel 27 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: still spent fifteen years behind bars. This is Wrongful Conviction 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 29 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: That's me. I'm your host, and today, if I was 30 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: going to title this episode, I would call it Web 31 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: of Lies, because this case was built on so many 32 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: different layers of lies, so many different people had to 33 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: tell in order to convict an innocent man named Ruel 34 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: Sailor of murder and other charges. So we'll get right 35 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: into it. First of all, I want to introduce the 36 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: woman who was responsible for Ruel winning his freedom a 37 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: couple of years ago. Jennifer Passion Bergeron, who is the 38 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: deputy director of the Ohio Innocence Project. So, Jennifer, welcome 39 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: to Ronful Conviction. Thank you. 40 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: It's good to be here. I would be remiss if 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: I didn't give a shout out to Kim Carral too, 42 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: because she was in private attorney that worked with me 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: on this case. 44 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: Thank you for doing that. And without further Ado Ruel Sailor, 45 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: welcome to Ronfuel Conviction. 46 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: And let's start in the beginning. So did you grow 48 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: up in Cleveland. 49 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 3: Yes, on the east side, the Saint Clair area in 50 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 3: the east side of Cleveland. My mother, for as I remember, 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 3: she always was a nurse. Sometimes he worked two three 52 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 3: shifts a day. My father he was there. Then he 53 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: wasn't there. He was in the streets. But then I 54 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 3: had started get older, I had to be there to 55 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 3: help out with my siblings. I have a younger brother 56 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: and sister. So once my dad wasn't there, it was 57 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 3: just us. And then as a teenager, I took more 58 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 3: into the streets than school because I felt like I 59 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 3: had to help my mom with my siblings. So I 60 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: begin like to sell drugs at a young age and 61 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 3: I drop out of high school in like tenth grade. 62 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: Tell us about Cordell Hubbard, because he really is a 63 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: central figure and this really crazy crime. 64 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 3: Well black history of Cordell Hubbard. Me and Cordell Hubbard 65 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 3: met in third grade and for some reason we ended 66 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 3: up in the same class every grade throughout our whole 67 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 3: entire school year up until high school. So he was 68 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 3: always best friends and Jennifer. 69 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: This started from a drug deal gone bad, right, but 70 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: a very minor drug deal at that And this goes 71 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: back to the night of November sixteenth of two thousand 72 00:03:59,560 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: and two. 73 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: One of the people that we'll be talking about is 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: Clark Lamar Williams, and we'll just refer to him as 75 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: Williams just to try to make it simpler. My understanding 76 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: is Nicole Hubbard was with Omar Clark and Williams and 77 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 2: a couple of her friends that night and they were driving. 78 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: Omar Clark and Williams should buy a wet cigarette, one 79 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: cigarette with PCP and I guess it was twenty bucks 80 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: and Nicole fronted the twenty bucks. So when they stopped, 81 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: I think it was Omar Clark that went in to 82 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 2: get the money to pay her back. But didn't come 83 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: back with twenty bucks, came back with only ten bucks, 84 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: apparently because everyone had taken turns smoking, so I guess 85 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: he figured he only needed to pay half of it. 86 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 2: I don't know, but in any case, this did not 87 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: go over well with the Cole Hubbard, and my understanding 88 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 2: is Omar pulled a gun on her and that's when 89 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: she called her brother and things escalated from there. 90 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 3: Me and Grardill Hubbard, he was happening to be out 91 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: sun to brain one of our friends' birthdays. He's had 92 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 3: a bar and Cordell had received a phone call from 93 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 3: his sister and Nicole Hubbert. Him and William Sizemore left 94 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: the board and he was at and went to go 95 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 3: confront these guys about his sister to go see about 96 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 3: her well being, because he thought she was still there, 97 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 3: and when he got there, she was gone. To my 98 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 3: understanding from when I was told like Oldmark Clark pulled 99 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: a gun on Cordell Hubbard twice and Cordell Hubbard shot 100 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 3: Openmark Clark in self defense. 101 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: Omar Clark was shot eleven times and mister Williams was 102 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: running away from the scene and was shot. He was 103 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: lucky to be shot in the butt and therefore not 104 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: badly hurt. And the two men drove off afterwards. 105 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: And so the witnesses that was on the scene had 106 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 3: confused the driver and the passenger. William Sizemore was the passenger. 107 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 3: ForDeal Hubbert was the driver, and William Sizemore got out 108 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: and confronted the individuals saying, what do I do to 109 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 3: my sister? So the witnesses on that street automatically assumed 110 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 3: that the brother was the passenger, and that's where the 111 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 3: confusion came at. So they always had put Cordell on 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 3: the passenger side, and they didn't know who the driver was. 113 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 3: So when they arrested Cordell for this crime, they was 114 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: charging him as an accomplice because the driver was the 115 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 3: shooter and they didn't have a second person. And going 116 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: back to my history in the streets, there was a 117 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 3: vice cop from my neighborhood that particularly didn't get along 118 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 3: with me per se, and he had planned drugs on 119 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 3: me once before and I didn't go to prison, and 120 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: he felt that I said with the prison. He told 121 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 3: me that he would get me one day. And so 122 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 3: when Cordell name came up in his crime, they automatically 123 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 3: just assumed I was with Cordell because we've always been 124 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: together for so many years, and everyone knew that we 125 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: were best friends. So this cop told the homicide detectives 126 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 3: that he had a complicitive informant, which was never named, 127 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 3: never brought up during our trial, just his word. He 128 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 3: had a complicatory informant told him that I was the 129 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 3: driver and that I was the shooter, and I was 130 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 3: arrested based upon that. 131 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: And then we fast forward, of course, to March twenty six, 132 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: two thousand three, and a grand jury indicted you, well, 133 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: right on charges of murder, kidnapping, and assault. But I 134 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: mean the alibi it's pretty strong in this case, right, 135 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: I mean he was miles and miles away across town 136 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: with lots of other people, right. 137 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 2: Yes, we have several affidavits from different people later on 138 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: who could have potentially testified at the trial, but they 139 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: also said in their appidats that they were threatened by 140 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: the police if they did show up to testify. 141 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: Now, the case went to trial in May of two 142 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: thousand and three, and all three of you were tried together. 143 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: First of all, it seems like a very quick turnaround, 144 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: and I can't leave out the fact that when I 145 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: see the words Cyahoga County, I immediately get the chills, 146 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: because we keep hearing about cases from Cuyahoga County wrongful 147 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: conviction one after the other. 148 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: I was indicted more twenty six. I was arrested April second, 149 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: Whdell Hubbard was already indicted and was out on bond 150 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 3: and his court date prior to me being arrested. The 151 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 3: state didn't have any witnesses to come to court, so 152 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: the judge, Nancy MacDonald told were they owe, his lawyers 153 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 3: and the prosecutors that she was going to reschedule next 154 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: court date for May nineteenth. To my understanding that they 155 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 3: didn't come May nineteenth with witnesses, that the case would 156 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: be thrown out. In the midst of that, I was 157 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: arrested and they added Cordell and the code to my 158 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: new indictment, but kept they saying court date May nineteenth 159 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 3: was their original court date to start a trial. Or 160 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: lawyers who I was separate trial, they denied as a 161 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 3: separate trial, and I had to nearly prepare for a 162 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 3: murder trial from April second to May nineteen. 163 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: Jennifer, this all sounds pretty irregular, even amongst the crazy 164 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: shit we hear week to week on this podcast. 165 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: Well, I can't imagine as an attorney trying to get 166 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: ready for a murder case in basically a month. So 167 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: that set the whole stage for things to just go 168 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: downhill because there just wasn't time to do the type 169 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: of investigation that would have been necessary to mount the 170 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: proper defense. 171 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: By the time I had put my witness list together, 172 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 3: the detective on my case, before I can even make 173 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: calls to get to these witnesses, he had already got 174 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 3: to them. The board that I was at, he got 175 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 3: to the owner and he told her that if she 176 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: came to court of my defense, he would he would 177 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 3: get her board raided, like raided for drugs and shut down, 178 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: like he was like playing drugs at her bar. And 179 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 3: he's known for this throughout our neighborhood, so she didn't 180 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: want to jeopardize her business, which I understand. And then 181 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 3: my other witnesses neighbors in the street life as well, 182 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 3: and he went to them and threatened them with planning 183 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: drugs on them and getting those guys cases, so they 184 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 3: didn't come to court. So when it came time for trial, 185 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: I didn't have any out of out witnesses that was 186 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 3: on my list to come to court, because this detective 187 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: had when it spoke to all of them and threatened 188 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 3: them not to come to court. 189 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: So you didn't have a shot in l when it 190 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: really comes down to it. And I don't think the 191 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: best lawyer in the world could have helped you out 192 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: of that situation with what they were willing to do, 193 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: the links they were willing to go to. So the trial, 194 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: did you think, after having seen all the worst of 195 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: what our quote unquote justice system has to offer, did 196 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: you think that you still had a chance to be acquitted. 197 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 3: I was skeptical because my jury wasn't of my peers. 198 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 3: Majority of my jury were older, white people from suburban areas. 199 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 3: And so the biggest thing in this case was identification. 200 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: There was no physical evidence, no scientific evidence, no bullets cases, 201 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 3: none of that. The witnesses in this case described the 202 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 3: two individuals as two light skinned males that looked like brothers. 203 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 3: For they'll hover, it's the same skin complexion as Steph Curry, 204 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: and you would put me as the same complexion as 205 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 3: maybe Lebron James or Dwayne Wade maybe. And I'm sitting 206 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 3: there and I'm like, these human beings in this jury 207 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 3: box has to understand that me and Cordell Hubbard could 208 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: never look alike on no scene, no setting, whatsoever, two 209 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 3: different shades of color completely. But when you get a 210 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 3: jury that's not from my culture of my background, they 211 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: just see two African Americans, so it was a different 212 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: I didn't know that, but I know now. I'm just 213 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 3: thinking that everybody knows about light skin and dark skin, 214 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: and that's just common sense. I wasn't aware that there 215 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 3: are people that live in this world that don't know that. 216 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: So the jury comes back in what was that moment 217 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: or those moments like for you. 218 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 3: It was a moment of clarity, because before you go 219 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 3: through those things, you feel like nobody goes to jail 220 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 3: that didn't do anything unless you know somebody that's actually innocent. 221 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 3: So I'm sitting there and I'm like, they just found 222 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 3: me guilty of something I didn't even see. I wasn't 223 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 3: even nowhere nearer the scene of the crime, hadn't been 224 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: nowhere near that side of the town or anything. But 225 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 3: to make it even worse that I'm being convicted of 226 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 3: a crime that the man standing next to me actually 227 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 3: committed and here I am being found guilty of a 228 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 3: crime I never saw. 229 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Stand Together. Stand 230 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: Together is a philanthropic community dedicated to helping. 231 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 3: People improve their lives. 232 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: For more than twenty years, Stand Together and its partners 233 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: have been on the front lines of criminal justice reform. 234 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: By empowering people to take action, supporting nonprofits, and working 235 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: with businesses, Stand Together tackles the root causes of problems 236 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: in our communities and empowers those closest to the problems 237 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: to drive solutions. Solutions like reducing unjust prison sentences through 238 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: the First Step Act, empowering community based programs and help 239 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,119 Speaker 1: people re enter society, and now working to bridge divides 240 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: in our communities. To learn how you may get involved, 241 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: visit standtogether dot org slash conviction. This episode is underwritten 242 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: by the AIG pro Bono Program. AIG is a leading 243 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: global insurance company, and for over a decade, the AIG 244 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: pro Bono Program has provided thousands of hours of free 245 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: legal services and other support to nonprofit organizations and individuals 246 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: most in need. More recently, the program added criminal and 247 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: social justice reform as a key pillar of its mission. 248 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 3: It was an even heavier blow between me being convicted 249 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 3: and me going to prison, because Creil Hubber comes forward 250 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 3: and he admits that he killed Omar Clark, and he 251 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 3: admits that William Sizon World was with him and that 252 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 3: I was nowhere near that, and that he played on 253 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 3: my innocence to get free, and now he wants to 254 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 3: tell the truth. So when we get ready to go 255 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 3: to Sensing, the plan is he selling his attorney that 256 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 3: when we go to Senson there were news cameras in 257 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: there and media in there, So he was saying like, 258 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 3: I'm going to speak the truth in front of the 259 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 3: cameras and blow this whole thing up. So I don't 260 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 3: know if his lawyer plays both sides or what. But 261 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 3: we go to Sencent and are judged. She kicks the 262 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 3: media out of the courtroom before court starts. Cordial still 263 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 3: confesses to the crime, and she still convicts me right 264 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 3: there on the spot, sends me to twenty eight years 265 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: to life. 266 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: He's actually solving the case for them, right, he's identified, 267 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: which took some courage. I mean it was too it 268 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: was too late as it turns out, but it did 269 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: take some courage. Hubbard signed a Swan statement right claiming 270 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: that Rouel was not with him at the crime scene, 271 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: and he said it was quote unquote, it was a 272 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: guy named Will and he meant by that Will size bore. 273 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: And it goes on to say, I didn't think it 274 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: was going to turn out like this. I didn't think 275 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: my best friend would get convicted as a shooter. But 276 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: he wasn't even there. 277 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: So I have to follow a new trial motion based 278 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 3: on Cordell's affidavit amanting to this crime. We sent subpoenas 279 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: to William Sizemore. So we have this retrial here where 280 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 3: we present all to the courts. Cordeal takes the stand 281 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 3: at the retrial here stead he killed Omar Clark, describes 282 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 3: the whole night in detail, how it happened, how he left, 283 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: everything that happens. Before Cordell can make it back to 284 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 3: his seats, he denies me a new trial, then sends 285 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: me to prison. 286 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: Jennifer, help us out here. What was going on here 287 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: that they were so actively disinterested in knowing what really happened. 288 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 2: I don't have an answer for that. I don't know 289 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: how you could hear that testimony and not try to 290 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: fix this wrong. 291 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: So, I mean, years go by and we're all the 292 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: way to twenty thirteen, when you filed another petition asking 293 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: for a new trial based on another sworn AFFI, David, right, right, 294 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: Do you want to walk us through that. 295 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 3: You Mark Clark, the victim's brother, Omark Clark's brother. He 296 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: was heavily involved in the whole entire investigation. And that's 297 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 3: how a lot of things worked out on the Cordell 298 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 3: and the Cole Hubberd side, because you work. Clark would 299 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 3: go talk to the witnesses, he would go talk to Williams, 300 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: and he would go relay everything he found out in 301 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 3: the streets to the police, and that's how they found 302 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 3: out who Cordell and the Cole Hover even was. Fast forward. 303 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 3: You Mark Clarker's in prison. I write him a letter 304 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 3: and he writes me back. He tells me that days 305 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: after trial he knew the truth. William Sizemore had came 306 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 3: forward to him and told him that he was with 307 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 3: Cordell the night of the shooting, that Cordell killed his brother. 308 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: He said, Man, send a lawyer at me, or send 309 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: an investigator at me. I'll do an affidavit. So I'm 310 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 3: thinking this was the mother load right here. So I'll 311 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 3: get the affidavit. I found me a new trial motion again, 312 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 3: this newly discovered evidence. The same judge, Nancy McDonald. 313 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,239 Speaker 1: I feel like it would be a more objective process 314 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: if it was a different judge. But she denied that 315 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: petition without a hearing. The petition's dismissal was upheld on 316 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: appeal in twenty fourteen. And then how did you end 317 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: up contacting the Ohio Innocence Project. 318 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 3: I had wrote to the Ohio Interest Project. They never 319 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: denied my case, they just at the times that I 320 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 3: wrote them. They responded saying they had a heavy case load. 321 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 3: So I understood that I'm going to keep fighting and 322 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 3: keep building evidence as I go, so if they do 323 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: come along, I'll have enough. And in the midst of that, 324 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: I had retained the attorney, amazing attorney, Kimberly Curel, my wife, 325 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 3: Amy Saylor, my family. They was out here and they 326 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 3: was be down doors having rallies. And then Kyle Swinson 327 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 3: from the Scene magazine had did an article on me 328 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 3: and I had like a ten pay spread and the 329 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 3: Ohio Interest Project and then they had contacted me. They 330 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 3: had seen the traction I had with my cases was going. 331 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 3: They looked into it, and Jennifer and this student Andrew 332 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 3: and Ruby, they came to see me I was in 333 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 3: Ohio State Penitentiary and went over my case and I 334 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: just I just knew right then and there, like I 335 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 3: was about to go home. 336 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: So, Jennifer, how did you crack this case? 337 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 2: There was really nothing to crack. I mean, by the 338 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 2: time we got the case, we knew exactly what had 339 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 2: happened because everybody had already explained that Cordell admitted he 340 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: was the shooter. We knew William Sizemore it admitted he 341 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 2: was the second person there, and so there really wasn't 342 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: anything to solve. We knew from the get go that 343 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: Ruel wasn't there and had nothing to do with it. 344 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: The challenge was to convince the prosecutor in the court 345 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: to let him out of prison since he was innocent, 346 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: and that's what took a long time. So in the 347 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: spring of twenty sixteen, I think his other attorney, Kim, 348 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: we started working cooperatively together to try to figure out 349 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 2: a plan to get Ruel out and then we were 350 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 2: kind of working with additional investigation to try to find 351 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 2: anything else we could, and that's where we got additional 352 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 2: affidavits from some of the alibi witnesses and from Nicole Hubbard. 353 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: And because he'd already filed as we were talking about, 354 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 2: before these new trial motions that had been denied, it 355 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: looked like the best path for him was to try 356 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: the conviction Integrity Unit that had opened in Cuyahoga County. 357 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: My whole time at prison, every attorney, every investigator, everybody 358 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 3: always told me like, if William Sizemore was to ever 359 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 3: come forward and tell the truth, that's your go to key, 360 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 3: you walking out of prison. So I'm in Lucasville and 361 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 3: I get a phone called and Kim is crying. As 362 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: soon as I called, I'm like, why why is she crying? 363 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 3: She's like, William Sizemore just went to the prosecutor's office 364 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: and told the truth. So in my mind, they about 365 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: to come pop my door in the next five minutes 366 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 3: and I'm about to walk out of here. It didn't 367 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 3: happen like that, though, Like I still sat in prison 368 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 3: for like almost eight nine months. After William Sizemore came 369 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 3: forward and told the truth and the prosecutors from the CiU, 370 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 3: Russell tied him and Kim came to see me and 371 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 3: he's like, well, we gotta do some more investigating. And 372 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: at this point, William Sizemore has admitted that he was 373 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 3: with Cordial Hubbard and that Cordill Hubbard shot Odmark Clark 374 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 3: in self defense and said that old Mark Clark had 375 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 3: a gun. Williams had came forward and recanted and said 376 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 3: he never saw me a day of his life and 377 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 3: that they made him say that I was the shooter. 378 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 3: My witness is body Netto's Anthony McKenzie. They've came forward 379 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 3: and told the truth that they was threatened. Correll has admitted, 380 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 3: So I have all this evidence mounted with me saying 381 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 3: that I'm innocent, and the prosecutor told me that he 382 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 3: had to go do more investigation and was going to 383 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 3: leave me in prison. So I had to ask, well, 384 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 3: where's William sideboard and he told me William Sizemore was 385 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 3: at home because he didn't see him as a suspect. 386 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 3: The system is not built right at all. 387 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: Was there a worst moment in that fifteen years, in 388 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: that very very dark place where you almost gave up, 389 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: or where it's just a moment of absolute despair And 390 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: at the same time, what was the happiest moment. 391 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 3: Well, the happiest moment would be they told me I 392 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 3: was going home. But just a quick how I went 393 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 3: from dark to light. I was in Lucasville and it's 394 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 3: like the worst prison in Ohio, hands down. And I 395 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: was I was on a straight path. I was stayed 396 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 3: out of trouble, and I was trying to get my 397 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: status dropped so I can go to a lower level prison. 398 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: And right before I went up to get up my 399 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 3: status dropped for a lower level prison, I was a 400 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 3: porter and a dust pan had came up missing. Now, 401 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: a dustpan in any other prison or any other times 402 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 3: is a minor thing. They don't make a big deal 403 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 3: about it or nothing. But this particular time, they made 404 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: the biggest deal about this dust pan. And they tried 405 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 3: to give me like a LC which is like sixty 406 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 3: days in the hole and segregation, and they tried to 407 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 3: take my status being lowered away from me and all 408 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 3: these things and my phone privileges and my visit privileges, 409 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 3: and it was like it just came out of nowhere, 410 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 3: and it was like I didn't even do nothing. It 411 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 3: was like this is the story of my life. And 412 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 3: so they put me in the hole and They wouldn't 413 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 3: trying to hear me out. They weren't trying to wash 414 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 3: the camera to see. They have these high tech cameras, 415 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 3: and I just keep saying, wash the camera. It's just 416 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 3: something simple. Wash the camera. You would see I didn't 417 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 3: touch the dust pan. They refused to wash the camera. 418 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 3: So it was like this is it set up or something? 419 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 3: And I got to the whole. I just went on 420 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: a hunger strike because I had to fight for my 421 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 3: way without being violent or being rude or anything like that. 422 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 3: So I just refused to eat me refusing to eat 423 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 3: being the person I was in prison, I was had 424 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 3: a little bit of a mount of respect. A lot 425 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: of other guys follow suit, and they refused they trades 426 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 3: on account what they was doing to me because everybody 427 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: knew they never did. It's a lot of dust bands. 428 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 3: So long story short, I went to do like seven eight, 429 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 3: I think like ten days on hunger strike in solitary confinement, 430 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 3: not a soul around me. I'm by myself, and it's 431 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 3: like I'm just feeling like this damn near to eat. 432 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 3: I'm feeling like I'm about to die in the CeAl. 433 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 3: I ain't eight. I'm not feeling good and they come 434 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 3: get me. So I had a lawyer phone call and 435 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 3: I came got the phone. It was genderfer Kim and 436 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 3: the Channel five news from my city, Joe Packin Naggas 437 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: all on three way on the phone with me, and 438 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 3: I'm like, what's going on? What was going on? And 439 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 3: they was like, that's it, You're coming home. You'd be 440 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 3: out a couple of days. It went from like the 441 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 3: worst time in prison to the best time in prison, 442 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 3: all one cycle, for. 443 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: The literal depths of despair, starving alone in solitary confinement 444 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: for another crime E didn't commitment. 445 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 3: And then they finally decide to watch the camera and 446 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 3: another porter head through the dustband in the trash by mistake. 447 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: Ultimately, you obviously were freed. And when I say freed, 448 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: I chose that word carefully because even after all of this, 449 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: they still weren't done messing with you, right, Because what 450 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm referring to is, in March twenty eighteen, the prosecutor 451 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: Andrew Well's team file the joint motion vacating conviction all 452 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: the convictions and dismissing all the charges. But there was 453 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: another little dirty trick, right, which is that the prosecution 454 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: had a caveat, and they said to you, well that 455 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: you had to plead guilty to perjury and obstruction of justice, 456 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: saying that you had falsely testified at trial that Cordell 457 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: was not involved in the shooting, and in exchange for this, 458 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: they were willing to re sentence you to ten years, 459 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: which obviously you had already served a lot longer than that, 460 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: and you could go home. 461 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 3: I never disclosed at pordial and William Size more than 462 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 3: left the board, and I stayed. I never really lied. 463 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 3: We was together all that night, which I didn't find 464 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 3: out he left the board to after the fact. And 465 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 3: so they told me that I lied. Understand I committee perjury, 466 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 3: perjury and obstrusting the justice. They gave me five years 467 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: max on each one equal to ten years. And at 468 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 3: this point they hold it in front of me like, well, 469 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 3: you can go home right now. If you agreed it is, 470 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 3: you can go home. You don't agree it is, you 471 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 3: know telling how long it might take for us to 472 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 3: get you a new trial, starty, It might take a year, 473 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 3: it might take two years, who knows, but you can 474 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 3: go home right now. Did you say you take these 475 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: ten years time? Serve? So I agreed to it, even 476 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 3: though I know it wasn't right. I agreed to it 477 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: because I wanted to go home. Who don't want to 478 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 3: go home after being in jail for fifteen years? What 479 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 3: primary didn't commit? 480 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: It's an unreal story. And of course, now fast forward 481 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: to March of twenty twenty, you file the federal civil 482 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: rights lawsuit against the Cleveland Police Department and non officers 483 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: seeking damages for your wrongful conviction, and your team also 484 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: filed a separate complaint in the Kuyahoga Court of Climbing 485 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: Polease to have you declared wrongfully in prisoned and therefore 486 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: eligible for state compensation or actually innocent, however you want 487 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: to look at it, So we don't need to get 488 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: into that now. But I just want to say that 489 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: all of us in the family, the roycal conviction family, 490 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: and and it's community are all rooting for you. 491 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 3: I can't let this platform go without sharing where I'm 492 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 3: at currently since being released. I married my wife on 493 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 3: my one year anniversary March twenty eighth. As of recently, 494 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: I just had a daughter, Mayels. She was born on 495 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 3: the twelfth of October. I started a business when I 496 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 3: came home from prison. I still a clothing line call 497 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: Comma Club Clothing. The Comma means continuation. The mantra is 498 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 3: my story is not over. No one's story is ever over. 499 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 3: As long as you get up and continue to fight 500 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 3: what you want in life, your story is never over. 501 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 3: I've done speaking engagements. I go to high schools, colleges 502 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 3: and tell my story and you can find me on 503 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 3: Instagram at Comma Underscore Club Underscore Clothing. Thank you. 504 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: That's Comma Underscore Club Underscore Clothing. Follow Ruel. The clothes 505 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: are great. I've seen them and they're comfortable too. So 506 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: I'm giving up. I'm giving my plug. So now this 507 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: is the part of the podcast, which is my favorite part. 508 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: I always say that because this is the part where 509 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: I get to first of all, I think both of 510 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: you for coming and taking your time and sharing your 511 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: story and just for being freedom fighters that you are. 512 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: And so Jennifer Passion Vergeron, thank you again for being 513 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:08,479 Speaker 1: on the show today. 514 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 2: It's been my pleasure. 515 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: Thank you, and Ruell you know, once again you're a 516 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: hero to me and so many others. And I'm just 517 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: so thrilled that we got to talk today, and you 518 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: know we're going to be friends for a long time, 519 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: So thanks again for sharing your strength and your spirit 520 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: with the audience. Oh thank you for having me on 521 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: one hundred percent. So now what happens is I turned 522 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: my microphone off, kick back, close my eyes and just 523 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: listen to closing arguments. Jennifer you first, please, and then 524 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: you can just hand it off to ru Well. 525 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: I just want to say thank you to everyone for 526 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: listening and being interested in these issues because they are 527 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: pervasive throughout the country and they need to be heard. 528 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 2: The stories and the exoneries and just the awareness in general. 529 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: And if you get the chance to work on a jury, 530 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 2: please do so and just be skeptical and look for 531 00:27:58,920 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: the truth. 532 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 3: Jennifer, I love you, Thank you for what you've done. 533 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 3: And I can't leave this podcast without giving my wife, 534 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 3: Amy Saylor her roses, as well as Kim Correll and 535 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 3: Tim Pablished, Andrew and Ruby and work at the OP. 536 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 3: I wouldn't be seeing her having this conversation. It wouldn't 537 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 3: for these people because they fought for me on the outside. 538 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 3: Like Kim Corell was my attorney. She did ten times 539 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 3: more than what I paid her for. Leave that and 540 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 3: she's been a friend from their own out and the 541 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 3: op has tocome a family. They don't just get you 542 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 3: out of prison, but they stick with you the whole 543 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 3: time while you're out. I just wanted to just give 544 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 3: all them their flowers. Now I get a joy out 545 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 3: of just sharing my story. It's about the awareness of 546 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: what's going on in our world, our country, far as 547 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 3: our legal system and how our courts, police officers, things 548 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 3: of that nature. The jury's handle theirselves because I was 549 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: once that person that didn't believe these things happen. So 550 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 3: the more we share stories like minds and others, we 551 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 3: wake up more people than know that these things actually happen. 552 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 3: If you know someone in prison, please contact them, Please 553 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 3: come and gaze in their cases. Just be there for 554 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 3: those guys that are in prison. There are a lot 555 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 3: more guys in prison that are innocent. I say that 556 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 3: over and over again. There are so many more. I'm 557 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 3: just one of many that happen to make it out. 558 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 3: There's so many more in there. So I encourage people 559 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 3: to be on the jury Listen, be attentive, study these cases. 560 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 3: If you're in the jury, and just help people that 561 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 3: you know that's are incarcerated. Write them, send them a letter, 562 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 3: give them a phone call anything like that because it 563 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 3: means a lot. It means a lot more than you 564 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 3: may think. 565 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 566 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the 567 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help. 568 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff 569 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: Cliburn and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always, 570 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated compe Jay Ralph. Be 571 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 572 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 573 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in 574 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one