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Speaker 1: Live from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound on.

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Speaker 1: The fundamentals are there for inflation. I think for a

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Speaker 1: why we don't necessarily need free money and zero interest

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Speaker 1: rates forever. Washington at this point doesn't want to add

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Speaker 1: regulation to bitcoin. Bloomberg Sound on. The insiders, the influencers,

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Speaker 1: the insights. Another six train dollars in spending is a

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Speaker 1: little hard to imagine right now. Let's look at the

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Speaker 1: student loan debt, which is absolutely staggering. The nation does

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Speaker 1: need some infrastructure with going. We need to get some

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Speaker 1: of this stuff done. Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio Live from Washington. Greetings, or the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court deals a blow to Fannie and Freddie, their investors,

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Speaker 1: and the director of the agency that controls them now

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Speaker 1: on his way out. We'll talk about it straight ahead

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Speaker 1: with Bloomberg Supreme Court reporter Greg's Store as well. Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: White House correspondent Nancy Cook will give us the political

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Speaker 1: side of this. We're all following the bouncing ball today

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Speaker 1: on infrastructure as well as plans. Now, as we've learned

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Speaker 1: for Vice President Kamala Harris to travel to the southern

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Speaker 1: border later on this week, we'll talk about it all

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Speaker 1: with Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeannie she and Zano, and today

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Speaker 1: as well, Jennifer Nassau are former chair of the Massachusetts

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Speaker 1: Republican Party and founder of the Pocketbook Project. It's all

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Speaker 1: ahead on this Wednesday. Thank you for spending part of

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Speaker 1: your Wednesday with us on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Joe Matthew.

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Speaker 1: As we turn to a story that's been in the

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Speaker 1: making for over a decade, as the Supreme Court drops

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Speaker 1: the hammer on major investors in Fannie May and Freddie Mack,

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Speaker 1: tossing out a core portion of their lawsuit that challenged

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Speaker 1: the government's collection of billions over a hundred billion dollars

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Speaker 1: in profits at the two agencies. Is sent it back

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Speaker 1: to a lower court. Now. This ruling means Fannie and

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Speaker 1: Freddie will not be released from government control, and President

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Speaker 1: Biden will also be cleared. Has been to fire the

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Speaker 1: director of the f h f A, a man named

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Speaker 1: Mark Colla Bria. This is market moving news. Stock and

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Speaker 1: Fannie and Freddie fell over each today We're joined to

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Speaker 1: talk about it by Bloomberg Supreme Court reporter Greg Store. Greg,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being here this lawsuit was brought by some

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Speaker 1: major investors. It was and what they claimed is, uh

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Speaker 1: that the deals that were crafted between the f h

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Speaker 1: f A and the Treasury Department in basically, the Treasury

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Speaker 1: put a bunch of capital in the Fannie and Freddie

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Speaker 1: but then got a promise that it would get basically

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Speaker 1: all their profits going forward. They said those agreements were unreasonable,

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Speaker 1: violated both federal statute and the U. S Constitution, And

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court today largely throughout those claims. Why was

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Speaker 1: the president in this case, President Biden barred from firing

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Speaker 1: the director? Well, one of those claims, the constitutional claim

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Speaker 1: basically went like this. The Supreme Court has said that

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Speaker 1: certain high officers in the executive ranch of the government

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Speaker 1: have to be a subject to presidential control. The president

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Speaker 1: have to have the ability to fire them. And so

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Speaker 1: what the investors were saying was that the director of

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Speaker 1: the f h f A is one of those people. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and the federal law that gives that person some job

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Speaker 1: protections is unconstitutional. The investors then said, and because of that,

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Speaker 1: this entire agreement needs to be thrown out. Well, they

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Speaker 1: didn't get that last part. They didn't get the whole

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Speaker 1: agreement thrown out, but they did get the ruling that

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Speaker 1: said that the president has to have the ability to

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Speaker 1: fire the director of the f h f A. And

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Speaker 1: and today, of course, uh, Joe Biden's is indicating he's

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Speaker 1: going to do that. So is this the case for

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Speaker 1: these investors? Be careful what you ask for in some

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Speaker 1: respects yes, um, you know, going into the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Before the Supreme Court got involved, I think most people

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Speaker 1: on the outside thought that the core of the case

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Speaker 1: had nothing to do with that constitutional issue. It was

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Speaker 1: this separate claim that, uh, that the fh f A

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Speaker 1: was exceeding its powers under federal law, under a federal statute. Uh.

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Speaker 1: That's a part of the case of the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: totally throughout today. The Court said that there's a provision

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Speaker 1: in the law that says you can't sue the fh

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Speaker 1: f A when it's acting as a conservator. And that's

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Speaker 1: what the agency was doing in this case. Uh, So

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Speaker 1: that main part of the lawsuit went away. Just to

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Speaker 1: understand why the stocks fell as much as they did,

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Speaker 1: we're looking at more than declines by the clothes for

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Speaker 1: for Fanny and for Freddie. That's because these investors were

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Speaker 1: hoping that money would be restored, right, These would be

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Speaker 1: much more profitable investments. Yeah. And and they were hoping

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Speaker 1: they would at least get a very big settlement out

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Speaker 1: of this case and that the shares of those companies

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Speaker 1: would would reflect that. Uh. The the expectation was that

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Speaker 1: they would have a significant amount of leverage coming out

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Speaker 1: of this Supreme Court case. And as it turns out

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Speaker 1: that they don't have a whole lot of leverage. Blueberg

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court reporter Greg Stewart does a great job. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: Greg for being with us today on sound On. I

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Speaker 1: want to underscore how long this has been brewing. I

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Speaker 1: said over a decade the way back machine. This is

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Speaker 1: President Barack Obama talking about Fannie and Freddie following the

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Speaker 1: housing crisis in two thousand eight. I've always said that

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Speaker 1: any action with respect to Fanny Man Freddie mac Uh

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Speaker 1: needs to put taxpayers first and can't, under any circumstances

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Speaker 1: bailout shareholders or senior management of that company, those companies.

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Speaker 1: Fast forward almost ten years, the Trump administration wanted to

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Speaker 1: end government control of Fannie and Freddie ten plus one. Actually,

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Speaker 1: here's Dr Ben Carson, who was then Director of Housing

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Speaker 1: and Urban Development, testifying about Fannie and Freddie before the Senate.

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Speaker 1: Trump administration wanted them released from the f h F

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Speaker 1: a our reform plan were reduced the federal government's outsize

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Speaker 1: role in housing finance and protect taxpayers. Bringing Bloomberg Politics

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Speaker 1: contributor Genie she and Zano, It's always great to spend

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Speaker 1: time with the Genie. The political side of this is

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Speaker 1: really something. The President has already fired the director. He did,

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Speaker 1: he moved very quickly. The White House did to say

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Speaker 1: today that they were going to oust him. Um and

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Speaker 1: and they're obviously gonna We're gonna to see who they're

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Speaker 1: going to be replacing him with. But I do think

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Speaker 1: this was a welcome ruling by many progressives and the

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Speaker 1: Biden administration so they could move in a direction that

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Speaker 1: they have long wanted to do. But to your point,

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Speaker 1: this has been a long time coming. We're looking at

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Speaker 1: almost a decade here. Yeah, move forward with that. Why

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Speaker 1: is this something that progressives wanted and why is this

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Speaker 1: important to the White House? What will it mean for

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Speaker 1: people who own homes? Well, you know, it'll mean that

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Speaker 1: they will be able to move in a direction that

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Speaker 1: that progressives excuse me, have been talking about for some time,

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Speaker 1: and to a certain extent, I think it also creates

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Speaker 1: some strange bedfellows because it's also an area in which

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Speaker 1: people in the industry would like to move. So I think,

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Speaker 1: on all sides, it's something the White House is really welcoming.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's interesting. And I haven't

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Speaker 1: had a chance to read the decision yet, but what

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Speaker 1: we're hearing reported about the decision by sam Alito is

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Speaker 1: that this is something that he and and the court,

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Speaker 1: you know, many members of the Court agreed with the

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Speaker 1: White House on. We should note, by the way, that

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Speaker 1: this decision also sends back the investor's case to a

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Speaker 1: lower court, so they actually may be able to recoup

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Speaker 1: some money here. Uh. But there was a statement that

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Speaker 1: came from the White House that made it clear that

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Speaker 1: they were looking for someone who better represented, uh, the

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Speaker 1: spirit of this the values of this administration. Uh. Mark

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Speaker 1: Callabria must have had a very just in a couple

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Speaker 1: of months under the Biden White House. Yes, absolutely, And

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Speaker 1: you know, to a certain extent, you wonder as he

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Speaker 1: welcomed to the decision and supported it and said he

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Speaker 1: would move on. It can't have been a comfortable position

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Speaker 1: for him to be and so certainly, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think he he knew the signs who were all

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Speaker 1: there that if they had the ability, and immediately when

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Speaker 1: they had the ability, he was going to be ousted.

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Speaker 1: And he certainly was kind of a candidate. Do you

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Speaker 1: think Joe Biden is looking at well, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think that's the big question. I think he's going to

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Speaker 1: be under a bit of pressure here. But certainly they

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Speaker 1: want somebody who is going to represent homeowners, who's going

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Speaker 1: to represent people on the ground something. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think we may be talking to some senators, maybe some

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren and other type of people about who he

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Speaker 1: might name to replace. Yeah, Elizabeth Warren has spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time talking about this. This is really it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a campaign issue. I just took you all

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Speaker 1: the way back to two thousand eight, which pre dates

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Speaker 1: agreements that allowed the federal government to collect all this money.

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Speaker 1: But going back to the housing crisis, that was a

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Speaker 1: major problem, the roles that Fannie and Freddie were playing,

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Speaker 1: and of course back then we were talking about subprime

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Speaker 1: loans and a real mess. That's right, And you know,

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Speaker 1: in the ruling today, it was interesting to me that

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Speaker 1: that Alito said the case was similar to the courts

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Speaker 1: ruling on the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Um I believe

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Speaker 1: that was last year. There might have been last term

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Speaker 1: that they that they ruled on that, and so he

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Speaker 1: said there were similar job protections for the director of

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Speaker 1: the cf PB. So there are some interesting parallels there.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Sound On. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington,

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Speaker 1: joined by Bloomberg Politics contributor Genie she and Zano. There's

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Speaker 1: something about the housing market when it comes to politics, Genie,

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Speaker 1: whether you're talking about mortgage rates, access to credit, the

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Speaker 1: American dream is what we're talking about. For constituents when

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Speaker 1: they see the White House, maybe a a member of

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Speaker 1: Congress working on their behalf to secure the American dream.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty hard to beat that. It is, and when

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Speaker 1: it comes to politics, it is. And and one thing

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Speaker 1: I thought was fascinating as I'm still reading through this

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Speaker 1: ruling is Aldo sounded a little bit like a progressive

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Speaker 1: in some ways. As I read this. He said, the

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Speaker 1: removal power quote works to ensure that these subordinates serve

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Speaker 1: the people effectively and in accordance with the policies that

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Speaker 1: the people presumably elected the president to promote and I

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Speaker 1: thought coming from Aldo, that was, you know, might be

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Speaker 1: a very welcome statement at this point. Absolutely, uh, shareholders

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Speaker 1: hopes stay alive, as we've been reporting here on sound On,

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Speaker 1: but of course the organization is going to change in

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Speaker 1: the politics behind it. Certainly will have a lot more

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Speaker 1: on this coming up. Also ahead today, we're going to

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Speaker 1: assemble the panel. You're gonna stay here, right, Jeanie always

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Speaker 1: Joe always here. This is Bloomberg So long with Joe

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Speaker 1: Mapew on Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for being with us on

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. You've first heard about this on Bloomberg sound

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Speaker 1: On this time yesterday when the story first broke. Morgan

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Speaker 1: Stanley will not allow employees to return to the office

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Speaker 1: unless they're vaccinated. Workers in fact, will have to register

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Speaker 1: their vaccine status by the end of this week. Joined

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Speaker 1: to talk about it by Bloomberg Politics contributor Geenie She

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Speaker 1: and say no as well, Jennifer Nassore, former chair of

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Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Republican Party and founder of the Pocketbook Project.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to both of you. We don't have a vaccine passport, Genie.

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Speaker 1: Is this another example of corporate America? Taking action because

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Speaker 1: the government cannot or will not in this case, I

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Speaker 1: think it is I think, you know, companies like Morgan

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Speaker 1: Stanley feel like they have a duty to protect obviously

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Speaker 1: their workers and their customers and everybody entering and exiting

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Speaker 1: their buildings. And so then where is that is not

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Speaker 1: in place at the governmental level, at least you know,

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Speaker 1: in certain parts of the country, if not most, they

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Speaker 1: have decided to step in. So I think there are

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Speaker 1: issues of liability. I think there are issues of safety,

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Speaker 1: and I think we are going to start to see

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Speaker 1: or continue to see more of this as we go forward.

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Speaker 1: And what will be interesting if there are lawsuits brought,

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Speaker 1: and I expect there may be some, we may see,

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Speaker 1: you know, what the court has to say about that.

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Speaker 1: Already in areas like hospitals, the court has said in

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Speaker 1: some cases that the hospitals have a right to require

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Speaker 1: their employees to be vaccinated. Let's talk about some of

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Speaker 1: these concerns as well with jennifernsur Thanks for being here, Jennifer.

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Speaker 1: Should employers be able to make this requirement? Obviously, a

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Speaker 1: private company can allow who it wants in their space,

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Speaker 1: but considering privacy laws religious exemptions, this gets complicated. Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, thank you so much for having me

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Speaker 1: on today. Um. Second, you know, I do have some concerns.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm fully vaccinated. I say, live in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: Four point one million people in Massachusets are vaccinated, so

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Speaker 1: it's not really an issue here. Um, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I think there are some concerns when it comes to

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Speaker 1: religious exceptions, when it comes to health exceptions. And even

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Speaker 1: though these companies are allowing people to work remotely, still, um,

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Speaker 1: how long is that going to go on for? And

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Speaker 1: are they going to be stigmatized by their fellow employees

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Speaker 1: or by their immediate bosses? And so I think that's

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Speaker 1: going to have to get worked out. And yes, I

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Speaker 1: do see that they are going to definitely be core

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Speaker 1: challenges on this issue as we go forward, because again

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Speaker 1: this is this is still an experimental drug and until

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Speaker 1: it is full fledged and everything has worked out, and

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Speaker 1: we see today how um, people under a thirty are

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Speaker 1: having heart inflammation issues? Right, are we going to have

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Speaker 1: now the twenty two to thirty year olds that are saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get this vaccine because what if

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Speaker 1: something happens? So so I think it's only need to

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Speaker 1: be flushed out. But I do agree a Genie and

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Speaker 1: the fact that I'm I'm glad that these companies are

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Speaker 1: are taking some sort of a stand to protect their

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Speaker 1: workers who can get the vaccine and for those that

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Speaker 1: can come into their institutions. Jen makes a great point here, Genie,

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Speaker 1: emergency use authorization does that complicate this conversation because it's

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Speaker 1: not full fledged approved by the FDA. It does, and

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Speaker 1: I think that those are the kinds of things that

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Speaker 1: they are going to have to do. These companies, whether

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Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley and others, even in my case, for instance,

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Speaker 1: colleges and universities a little bit of a different scenario,

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Speaker 1: but requiring students, for instance, to be vaccinated. Um. But

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Speaker 1: as as you just mentioned in, Jen rightly said, this

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Speaker 1: emergency youth authorization for these vaccines makes this different. I mean,

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Speaker 1: can a company, or in the case of you know,

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Speaker 1: the government, if they decided to step into this, require

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Speaker 1: vaccination when they themselves haven't even fully approved of the

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Speaker 1: use of this vaccination. And Jen is absolutely right, there

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Speaker 1: are going to be issues involving health you know, religious

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Speaker 1: exemptions that these companies are going to have to deal with.

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Speaker 1: So it creates an awful lot of questions for the

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Speaker 1: policies these company put in put in place, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it does, at least in my mind, creates some type

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Speaker 1: of political and social risk for these companies, whether they

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Speaker 1: do this or they don't, interestingly on both sides. And

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Speaker 1: I suspect that firms like Morgan Stanley or we also

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Speaker 1: heard from JP Morgan recently, they can probably handle the lawsuits.

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Speaker 1: But Jen, if you look at the difference between these two,

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Speaker 1: JP Morgan made news just by saying that people need

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Speaker 1: to come back. They weren't actually delibeating between or more

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Speaker 1: barring unvaccinated from the office. They were going to have

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Speaker 1: separate plans, including social distancing for those who were not vaccinated.

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Speaker 1: Is that a better way to go? I do? I

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Speaker 1: think that it gives people an opportunity where if you're

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Speaker 1: still trying to wrap your head around this UM and

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Speaker 1: you haven't been in a position where you've wanted to

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Speaker 1: get the vaccine, you can go to work. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I you know, I I think it's great when you

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Speaker 1: walk into a shop, when you walk into UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: any place right now, and it says if you're vaccinated,

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Speaker 1: you're good, and if you're not vaccinated, please wear a mask.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yes, it's the honor system. UM. But if

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Speaker 1: there are lots of people who are vaccinated walking around

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Speaker 1: with masks still, and so I think it's good to

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Speaker 1: give people the option. Again, I worry about the stigmatization. Right,

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Speaker 1: you don't show up to work and then what happens?

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Speaker 1: Are you considered not being as productive as your coworkers

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Speaker 1: that show up. So does the government need to give

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Speaker 1: companies more guidance on this gem? I hate government interference.

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Speaker 1: I figured I think that it really it's up to

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Speaker 1: a company by company situation. I think it depends on

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Speaker 1: what boards feel is UM. You know the best way

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Speaker 1: to go. You know, now we have Greek technology, we

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Speaker 1: are used to zooming and skyping. Those are all wonderful

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Speaker 1: to have in place, UM, but I think they need

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Speaker 1: to be really careful and come up with UM with

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Speaker 1: their legal departments, with the right terminology to use to

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Speaker 1: make sure that it's not used against anyone. That's still

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Speaker 1: Infrastructure week and I'm thinking it's going to be the

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Speaker 1: next several months. Lots of meetings and no real movement

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Speaker 1: on legislation, even though well we had a bipartisan deal

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Speaker 1: on the table. A couple of weeks ago, right, I

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Speaker 1: think that was my first show here on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: What does the White House think about that deal? Press

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Speaker 1: Secretary Jensaki says negotiations are following two separate paths. She

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Speaker 1: talked about it stay in the White House briefing this afternoon.

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Speaker 1: Steve Rochette, Louisa Tarrell, Brian D's are all back up

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Speaker 1: on the hill right about now, having continued discussions about

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Speaker 1: the path forward. Um, that's one track where we are

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Speaker 1: moving forward on these bipartisan negotiations, and we assess as

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Speaker 1: we can at each rounds with the next step should

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Speaker 1: be so again, if we make progress, and if we

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Speaker 1: assess that that it is the appropriate time to bring

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Speaker 1: these officials, these elected officials to the White House the

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Speaker 1: present exword to doing that, referring to the team. If

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Speaker 1: I believe now twenty one senator signing off on this

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Speaker 1: bipartisan deia, when are they coming over to the White House?

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Speaker 1: And we keep hearing that the sticking point is how

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Speaker 1: to pay for it? Right? Well, how to pay for anything.

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Speaker 1: House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy talked about it following a

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Speaker 1: meeting today with the House Republican Caucus. The last thing

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Speaker 1: you'd want to do. Any economists would tell you this,

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Speaker 1: with inflation rising, to make government fun things that are

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Speaker 1: not infrastructure that would be detrimental. So we know the

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Speaker 1: score here already. Who's gonna Budge Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeannie

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Speaker 1: she and Zano is with us as you were just hearing,

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Speaker 1: Joined as well today by Jan Nassour, former chair of

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Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Republican Party, founder of the Pocketbook Project. Genie

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Speaker 1: this is becoming a game of chicken, although I guess

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Speaker 1: we have two different games going on here. One is

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Speaker 1: with the deal makers here, those behind the bipartisan deal.

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Speaker 1: The other is with Democrats, the liberal wing of the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party. Should this go to reconciliation, which one has

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Speaker 1: a chance? You know, I feel like you and I

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Speaker 1: talk about this on a daily basis structure, and we're

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Speaker 1: hearing today and I know Jen could appreciate this. We're

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Speaker 1: hearing today that by the end of the week it's

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Speaker 1: a make or break. But I feel like we keep

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Speaker 1: saying I know, and you know, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: the fact that we're what we were walking or watching

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Speaker 1: them walk on these two tracks as you were just

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Speaker 1: playing that sot by Jen Psaki. You know, one is

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Speaker 1: these negotiations that seem to be ongoing with huge questions

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Speaker 1: about how to pay for it, and the other really

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Speaker 1: Democrats moving forward towards reconciliation and Bernie Sanders in particular,

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Speaker 1: putting together what look to be a six trillion dollar

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Speaker 1: reconciliation bill. Then you hear Kevin McCarthy say, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's no way in this environment with the fear of

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Speaker 1: inflation another thing we always talk about, we can pay

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Speaker 1: for that. So, you know, I feel that the democrats

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Speaker 1: only shot here is going to be on reconciliation, and

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Speaker 1: I am not optimistic they're going to get it done

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Speaker 1: in the calendar we have, which is short. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: is short. Jen. We've talked this up and down on

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Speaker 1: this broadcast, and of course there's just a daily drip

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Speaker 1: of news here. It sure seems like we've got two

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Speaker 1: different paces. Though the White House seems to have nothing

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Speaker 1: but patients. Joe Biden given another week, let him talk.

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Speaker 1: It's good for politics on the hill though an anti

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Speaker 1: Pelosi Chuck Schumer want to get this thing done. Do

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Speaker 1: you think one has better odds than the other? Um?

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Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, it's such majorities on both ends,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's it's a really tough subject because

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Speaker 1: but Bernie Sanders goes out there, he wants to spend

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Speaker 1: everyone else's money. Um, you know, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: much more time Bernie Sanders has on this wonderful earth

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Speaker 1: of ours, but I know that my kids have a

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Speaker 1: long lifetime and they're gonna be paying the bills that

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Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders wants to impose on them. And so, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think when we're talking six trillion, that's

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Speaker 1: trillion with a T dollars, we really need to have

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Speaker 1: bipartisan support. And you see that you have people like

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Speaker 1: Joe Mansion on one side, um you know, Senator Thoon,

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Speaker 1: Senator more Capital on the other side, working together trying

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Speaker 1: to come to some sort of um agreement here. But

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Speaker 1: then you have the ao c s and you have

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Speaker 1: the Elizabe Barns and the Bernie Sanders that really would

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Speaker 1: like to stick everything in it. This is infrastructure. The

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Speaker 1: the the definition of infrastructure is roads and bridges. It's

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Speaker 1: brick and mortar. And so let's talk about fixing those,

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about creating jobs and and come up with

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Speaker 1: an actual, real number that feels comfortable to both sides

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Speaker 1: because we all need to share in this bill. It's

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Speaker 1: not to she's going to be shared by one side

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Speaker 1: or the other. So check back Monday. I have to

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Speaker 1: ask you both. I have to ask you both as

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Speaker 1: well about the plan to head to the border. UH

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Speaker 1: Vice President Kamala Harris heading to the border this week

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Speaker 1: following a lot of criticism for not going after being

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Speaker 1: tapped by the President to help solve the crisis at

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Speaker 1: the bar. She will be in El Paso at the

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Speaker 1: end of the week for a Secretary Jansaki was pressed

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Speaker 1: in the briefing today by several reporters, why now, Why

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Speaker 1: go now? And she pointed to progress at the border,

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Speaker 1: saying that's why she's taken made a number of announcements

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Speaker 1: about how to address root causes that she's was going

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Speaker 1: to assess with the Department of Homeland Security and with

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Speaker 1: the administration when it was the appropriate time to go.

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Speaker 1: And I will note that we're at this point in

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Speaker 1: part because we've made a great deal of progress. Jenny,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting this lands the day before Donald Trump holds

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Speaker 1: a big rallies. The timing a coincidence, I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: I hate to be so cynical, but I think it

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Speaker 1: has a lot to do with Trump. It also has

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Speaker 1: a lot to do with the criticism that she as

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Speaker 1: um you know, endured over not going. She needs to go,

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Speaker 1: she should have gone earlier. They are absolutely right. The

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Speaker 1: number of child arrivals has decreased in April and May,

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Speaker 1: but they still are well above, or at least far above,

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Speaker 1: what they were in twenty nineteen. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: think they have to listen, and I would advise them,

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Speaker 1: not that they've asked to listen to people like Vincente Gonzalez,

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Speaker 1: the Democrat from the border, who says she needs to

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Speaker 1: be there and they need to be moving forward on

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Speaker 1: how to get immigration addressed and the border crisis addressed.

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Speaker 1: And so she has a lot on her plate, but

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Speaker 1: going there is a first step. Jen is this a

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Speaker 1: photo operatism more to it? I am in agreement with

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Speaker 1: Genie on this one. I I you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's over ninety days, it's long overdue. She took a

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Speaker 1: trip to Guatemala before taking a trip to the border.

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Speaker 1: Um really needed to be concerned with what was going

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Speaker 1: on in the US. UM, these kids coming in coyotes,

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Speaker 1: sex trafficking, human trafficking the whole and going on down there.

431
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: It's it's really a disafter and this is not something

432
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: that's part of them. Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeannie she and

433
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: Zano and Jenna Sure, former chair of the mass Republican Party,

434
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: founder of the Pocketbook Project. Nice to have an old

435
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: neighbor along for the ride today. With a hat tip

436
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: to Boston. I'm Joe Matthew. You're listening to Bloomberg. You

437
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: sound on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for

438
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: spending some time with us on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Joe

439
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: Matthew in Washington, where it is no secret the government

440
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 1: is spending money, a lot of money since the start

441
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: of COVID and possibly a lot more to commas. We

442
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: were just discussing with the Pannel. It's unclear what will

443
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: come from this whole debate over infrastructure, as the parties

444
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: don't even agree on the definition of infrastructure. And we're

445
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: joined at this precarious moment by Congressman Ralph Norman, Republican

446
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: from South Carolina, wrote an op ed in the Washington

447
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: Examiner this week headlined big spending is making our Lasian

448
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: problem worse. Congressman, welcome, well, glad to be with you. Joe.

449
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: You point out that you've been a real estate developer

450
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: for forty years, so you have a unique perspective. Do

451
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: you not agree with the chair of the Federal Reserve

452
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: that this is temporary? Well, the spending is not temporary.

453
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: I mean they can't print enough money to spend their

454
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: way out of more and more inflation. I mean when

455
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: you see lumber, when you see commodities that are commodity,

456
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: there are things we have to have, whether there's coins ethanol,

457
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: where there's copper for UH, for you know, the electrical

458
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: wiring that goes into a lot of components, and they

459
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: put in regulation after regulation and take them out. When

460
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: you see gasoline, all of a sudden, we go from

461
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: energy independence from energy dependence. No, this is here to

462
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 1: stay with us and even going to go higher with

463
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: UH if it continues. And with the tax hikes that

464
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: he's talking about, UH, we're seeing well, yeah, death Acts

465
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: ten thirty. When exchange has gone UH. In my real

466
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: estate world, it's a it's a show stopper. We've seen

467
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: a big pullback in in a lot of the commodities

468
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: that you mentioned, including lumber. Do you then see it

469
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: the opposite from the FED that that's temporary, that those

470
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: prices everything from lumber to copper will come back and

471
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: keep rising. You know if it comes down. You've seen

472
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: lumber come down, you know some five of the last

473
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: thirty days. But I mean, you just can't keep doing

474
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: what they're doing. And you can see people that are

475
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: holding projects up because of you know, because of the

476
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: inflation that set in. And it's not just what disadministration

477
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,959
Speaker 1: does not understand because they've never been into private sector,

478
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: they've never needed to head to meet a pay roll.

479
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: They don't know the time value of money. As an example,

480
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: it's not just a lumber were you going to get

481
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 1: a water heat in those sections? Most states in the country,

482
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: it's a ten to twelve week delay. When you go

483
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: to get PBC pipe and or different components of cast

484
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: iron pipe, you've got a two to three month delay.

485
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: You can't do that when you build a project that

486
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: really stimulates the economy and what South Carolina's experienced in anyway,

487
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: because the jobs are there, but you've kept a couple

488
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, the shortages, the prices, the fact that in

489
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: the endless regulations that are about to hit. It all

490
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: goes to show I think we're in for a long

491
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: haul unless we get a reversal in the administration, which

492
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: this is not going to do because they don't understand that,

493
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: know that they have to competence to do it. Let's

494
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: talk about the infrastructure debate right now and be specific

495
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: to this conversation. There are parallel negotiations going on. I realized,

496
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: we don't know how this is going to end. But

497
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: when it comes to Rhodes bridges, tunnels, is it time

498
00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: to invest in them? No, not the way considered investing.

499
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: I mean Joey started out, he threw out a number

500
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: four tree and now he's paired that back to one

501
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: point two tree. And it's suspending that he's saying is

502
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: over eight years, five seventy nine billions new spending and

503
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: you know, pick a number, but you know he's used

504
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: he's using three him or sixty being for roads, um,

505
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: you know in highways and bridges, which that's true infrastructure

506
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: for me, along with broadband. But but take one of

507
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: the line items is I think it's forty eight being

508
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: for public transit. Define that for me public transit payer

509
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: or power infrastructure. I think he's sent me three billion.

510
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: Is that? What is that Transformers for Texas is its

511
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 1: solar panels? Um? I have no and in then it's

512
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: at forty seven being for climate resiliency. What is that?

513
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a giveaway. Uh, if it's anything

514
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: like his original propos of them. It's a small part

515
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: that goes for what we consider true infrastructure. And then

516
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: the balance is to bail out cities and states that

517
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: have been mismanaged and to you know, to put it

518
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: two things that are not infrastructure at all. You just

519
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: put four on the table though, which is this is?

520
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: This is good? Let's be specific, roads, bridges, tunnels, you

521
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: add broadband that is kind of our modern infrastructure. Does

522
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: your district need broadband access? Yes, it does. What happens

523
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: when you drive out of the city, Well, you drive

524
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: out of the city, you're out of the you can't

525
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: the children that can't get the internet, their places, the

526
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: roads of tierrade, places that you know the bridges go to.

527
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: Ask anybody who is paid to inspec bridges. We've got

528
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: a problem. One just happened a couple of hours ago

529
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: here in Washington. The overpassed but it failed. So true

530
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: infrastructure needs to be done, but the way this administration

531
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: is doing it is going for the majority of it

532
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: is on for things that are not in my definition

533
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: of what what constitution infrastructure. We heard today from New

534
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: York Congressman Hakim Jeffreys, of course, chair of the House

535
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: Democratic Caucus, and I'm pretty sure I know how you're

536
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: going to react to this, but it's central to what

537
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: we're talking about, because he pointed to the need for

538
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: investments in what he called the caring economy. What is

539
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: the caring economy? Listened to the congressman. We believe a

540
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: meaningful investment in the caring economy in long term care

541
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: and home care, in childcare, and caring for our seniors

542
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: in healthcare is important for the American people emerging from

543
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: a deadly pandemic. The idea here, of course, and you've

544
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: heard this before we're speaking now, Congressman, is that childcare

545
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: is part of the infrastructure concept when it comes to

546
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: getting people back to work, that people can't go back

547
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: to work until childcare is covered, or there are elements

548
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: of the so called caring economy. I'm assuming that we

549
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: have a breakdown here in the conversation with Congressman Ralph Norman,

550
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: or does your district need investments in the caring economy?

551
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: Not only a breakdown, a total disconnect. He is unconnected

552
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: to the real world, the real reality. It's just somebody

553
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: that's never he's never experienced it. It's like, I mean,

554
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: he's never been in the private so he may be

555
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: a lawyer, but he's never been in the private sector

556
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: where he's having me to play role. And no he

557
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: I tell you, the Trump administration was on the right track.

558
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,239
Speaker 1: We were involved with it. I mean get this. Uh,

559
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: he was gonna try to pass an infrastructure package and

560
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: it was going to be based on a competitive bid

561
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: situation from each state. You put equity up before you

562
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: got the first taxpayer dollars for so called infrastructure, and

563
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: it would have been really infrastructure, not this childcare. And

564
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: if I hear coronavirus one more time, I'm tired of it.

565
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: Corona is a year and what year and a half old? Now? Uh,

566
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: they've ridden that horse, beat that mule as much as

567
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: they can beat him. Uh that's just a word to

568
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: try to get more dollars. And on top of all

569
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: of this joke, where the cup, where are the offsets?

570
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: Explained to me in this new spending, tell me how

571
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: you're going to offset it, because you know to add

572
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: to the thirty three in which in my mind is

573
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: sixty three. When you put every agency from Social Security, Medicaid, medicare, um, transportation,

574
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's all in the hole. I mean Post Office.

575
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: Pick an agency that's running in the in the black,

576
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: and I don't think you can find one. But it's

577
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: a disconnect. And let me ask you about spending on

578
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: what you want to buy Rhodes Bridges, tunnels, Broadbend. Should

579
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: that be deficit spending? Where where would that money come from?

580
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: Do you have offsets in mind for those? Oh? Absolutely,

581
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 1: I mean you'd have to go through the budge it.

582
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: And I'm not on the budget committee this year, but

583
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: you've got to start having the dialogue with what should

584
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: should be sunset. It's just like you, you and I

585
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: do and your listeners doing your family budgets. What should

586
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: be all set? What? Uh? What? What are priorities? And

587
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: you set priorities. I sat through an over oversight meeting

588
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: where they want to spend eighty eight billion dollars for

589
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: new new cars, electric cars for the Post Office, and

590
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: my response was is that really a priority when you

591
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: have the military being cut thirty when you have you know,

592
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: true infrastructure needs. But it ought to be done in

593
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: a competitive bid situation, uh, with with states not getting

594
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: money just because it's been mismanaged. But I would go

595
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: through the budget. I would. I mean, there's so much

596
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: money that's out there. Uh that and a lot of

597
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: my social programs that should be paired back. Um A

598
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: lot of them are of the SNAP program. Uh that

599
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: in the farm bill that should be uh it should

600
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: be at you can find a trillion dollars worth, so

601
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: off set this, so you can find more than that

602
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: more than Yes. Yes, Now it's gonna have to be

603
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: some strong debate. And everybody wants cuts until their oxes

604
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: goord and so I get that. But we're not even

605
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: having those discussions. I mean, I have this. This is

606
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: a hundred day, a hundred fifty four of this administration,

607
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: and there has yet to be any discussion of any substance,

608
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: of any type of cuts. The year I left the budget,

609
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: I think is one program I suggested to cut a

610
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: ten percent, And you tell me how you can't find

611
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: ten percent, whether it's a family budget, whether it's a

612
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: business budget or whether it's a particularly government, you can

613
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: find far more of a ten percent. And it was

614
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 1: like I was taking someone's child and put them, putting

615
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: them out of start. I'm sorry, we're out of time. Congressman,

616
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: do you think infrastructure, yes or no, be comes lost

617
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: this year? No? You heard it, well, the Senate will

618
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: will decide it, but hopefully not in this package. Now

619
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: you heard it from Congressman Ralph Norman, a Republican from

620
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 1: South Carolina. Fascinating conversation, fascinating hour. I hope you learned

621
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: as much as I did here on Bloomberg Sound on.

622
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg