WEBVTT - I Choose … to Be Awake! with Jen Hatmaker 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:09.959 You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Hello everyone, 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:13.960 welcome to I Choose Me, a podcast about the choices 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:19.160 we make. So this week's guest is not only birdening 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.800 a new book, she is also a brand new grandmother. 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.280 But welcoming Weston Joseph is not her only new beginning. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.440 From the heartbreak of waking up to a marriage in 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:37.480 crisis to the treacherous work of rebuilding a life, Jen 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:42.360 Hatmaker has walked through fire and come out stronger, more vibrant, 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:46.880 and wide awake. Join Jen and me as we laugh 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:51.360 and cry through choosing ourselves the hard way and reaping 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:56.080 the rewards that only come from fierce self awareness and 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.560 uncomfortable healing. Oh I'm so excited to talk to you. 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.720 You have no idea. Okay, first, all things aside, you 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:05.840 are a hattie. 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.520 Oh my god, this is the most important thing we 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:10.160 could discuss. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:11.280 It really is. 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:11.480 So. 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:17.560 I've heard women tell me in time, like lately more 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:22.440 and more how becoming a grandmother has changed their life. 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:24.840 Oh my god, how does that feel for you? It's 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.080 so it's so insane. This is my oldest son and 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.679 his wife. So this is first grandbaby and in our family. 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:37.440 This is first kid, first son, first grandkid, first great grandkid, 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:43.360 first nephew. Like he's doomed, Like he's absolutely doomed. And 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:47.960 we have this massive family prepared to over respond, over 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.760 attend to him. I mean they'll just I don't suspect 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:56.000 we'll have any restraint at all. And it's perfect, which 0:01:56.040 --> 0:02:00.080 is great news for us. We got a perfect baby. 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.280 Thank you, thank you. We're dreamy over here. 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.280 I bet West and Joseph. 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.280 Western, Joseph, I mean, I can't handle it. Like, and 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:11.760 these are new parents, if you know what I'm saying, 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.440 Like they're the young version of parents. They're different than 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.080 we were, and so they have a lot of boundaries 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:22.000 and like rules and whatever. And I just keep thinking, 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:24.799 that's fine. I want to be respectful. This is your kid, 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.600 you're the parents. But I swear to God if you 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:32.840 revoke my privileges in any way, I will mutiny. Mutiny. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.440 You have to. I mean, yeah, that's not going to 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:36.280 be acceptable. 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:37.120 Thanks. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:39.280 Oh gosh, I want to just talk about your. 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:40.040 Book, Okay. 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:46.400 I loved it. I felt so connected to your story, 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.560 even though it is not mine at all. There are 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:55.239 similarities in situations, but your upbringing very different from mine 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.880 and the way your early life. I mean, I feel 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:03.440 awake for you just from reading the book, because it 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.440 is the ultimate story of like figuring out who the 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:10.520 fuck you truly are, finally for yourself. Yeah yeah, And 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.399 I love how you start the book from the end 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.680 and then you go back and give it all context 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:20.480 and great storytelling. Well done, and clapping for you, I think. 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:22.720 No, wonder, Oh god, what a nice thing to say. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.840 I mean it because I'm looking at a strong, vibrant woman, 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.359 and before all this happened, you didn't even know how 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.200 to pay your mortgage. You know, you were in a 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.800 very different life than you are currently. 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.120 Yeah, it's so crazy to like say that. It's so 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.120 crazy to hear it back because even you know, I 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:47.520 lost my marriage five years ago after twenty six years 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.400 of marriage. You know, I was a child bride. You 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:58.480 were nineteen. It's insane. But even five years ago though, 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.480 I still had like this kind of career and this 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.200 this big life. But then when you strip away some 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.840 of the crutches, the places that I had been phoning it, 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:17.040 in the places where I had simply made assumptions of 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:24.120 trustworthiness or competency inside the marriage, that goes away and 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.640 I finally went shit, I don't know how much money 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:28.760 I make in a year? What am I doing? What 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.560 have I been doing? Like? What have I been doing? 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:38.599 And so the process of it was so chaotic because 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.039 on one hand, I am trying to simply get through 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.359 the day because the marriage, the ending of our marriage 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.920 was so disastrous and so traumatic and. 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.880 So shock for the people that don't know, give us 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.240 the tragic to the dates of the tragic. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.359 It just ended in an affair, but not the kind 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.720 where I have something to tell you you I it 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.400 was all shock and all accidental, just middle of the 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:09.760 night discovery. Like everything, it's not original. It's not an 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.480 original story, it really is. I am offering nothing new 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:18.200 to the middle aged male lexicon here, but when it 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:23.520 happens to you, it is so so disruptive. It is 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.560 so tragic. And we have five kids, two of them 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.640 were in high school at the time. You know, we're 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.280 in it like we're in the thick of life. 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:37.440 And you're in business together. You're you know, you're doing 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.800 everything together as you were taught you should. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.000 We were in lockstap we were running a nonprofit together 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:49.360 and previously had been in a ministry like that was 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.760 sort of our come up and was this very specific subculture. 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:59.200 And I just had never known as an independent adult 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.760 minute in my life. Again, I was a nineteen year 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:05.080 old bride, So we literally grew up together. We grew 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.680 up together, and sometimes, like this isn't a prescription to 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.440 say that never works. I've got plenty of friends who 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:19.800 had young marriages and they grew together, and yes, I'm 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:26.320 nice for them. How nice for them? We felt the 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.840 tension of our connective threads frying for quite some time 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.760 as we grew up and into sort of different spaces, 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.039 and well, we just grew up. You know, I didn't 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:41.560 know what kind of adult I was going to be 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.000 when I was a teenager, and neither he didn't know 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:45.240 what kind of adult he was going to be. 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.040 You guys, had you had the dreams. Sure you thought 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.640 you knew, and it seemed like you were so in 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:57.360 it together from the beginning of creating this magical, harmonious, 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.760 beautiful life that your parents lived and that the people 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.320 around you and your community are living. 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:10.360 And I was prepared because that structure works best when 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:16.040 the woman has a degree of subservience, when she is 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.080 saying you are kind of the leader of our marriage 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:23.640 and of our family and home. Your job matters the most, 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.320 your preferences. You're the tip of the spear, right and 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:29.960 and the rest of us are kind of back here, 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.040 just pushing you forward. And so, because that was the 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.120 environment that I grew up in a faith world, I 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.240 was prepared. I'm like, great, that's that's my gender limitation. 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.000 Like that is that I'm in lockstep with that job description. 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:47.520 And I will be a very good wing man, and 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:52.760 he will always be a trustworthy leader. And thus we 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.120 plugged ourselves into this outlet that promised a handful of 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.120 guaranteed outcomes. You know, everybody play their part, and you 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.640 do your thing, and you do yours, and you stay 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.640 here and you come forward, and then you get a 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:09.600 happy life. That's the transactional like structure. And so I 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:10.160 believed it. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:12.520 Yeah, why wouldn't you? 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.360 Why wouldn't I work for my parents? I saw it 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.080 work elsewhere. I you know, I didn't come up in 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.920 a generation where a ton of the women in my 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:27.000 ecosystem were questioning any of that. They were the cogs 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.360 in the machine. Of course, women are. I mean, it's 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.320 not as if the men are actually leading every system 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:38.240 and structure that exists on earth with integrity and excellence. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.360 It's the women you know back there in the behind 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:48.520 the curtain. But it was fraying already. It was fraying 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:53.600 already and then disintegrating toward the end until it was 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:54.800 a catastrophe. 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:57.760 I have a certain level of respect for what you 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.920 just said about that, you the cog in the wheel, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.320 like so many women feel. I have never felt that way. 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:12.840 So that's how different our stories are, but also so parallel. Yeah, 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.800 well I love I love hearing your story and hearing 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.440 what a different version of this looks like. 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.439 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. Right when I talk 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.800 about awake, I'm like, Okay, look, there's a small story 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.160 in here, and the small story is the story of 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.719 my divorce and recovery and rebuilding process. But there is 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:38.120 it is nestled inside a larger story, which, on one 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:43.080 level or another, virtually everybody in our generation and our 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.079 age group would go, oh, same on that one, same 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.040 on that one. We all grew up inside a patriarchal 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:54.560 culture in various rooms that we all found ourselves playing in. 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:59.600 There were some gender limitations, and they those existed in 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.000 different ways and they manifested differently, but we know what 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.440 they look like. We certainly got a story about our 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:11.200 bodies from the time we were what four younger, and 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:15.240 so that is ubiquitous for our age group. This story. 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.880 We this is what your body should look like, This 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.559 is what your body is good for, This is how 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.800 your body can be used. This is who your body. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:29.160 Girl. Be a good girl, yep, make girl pleasant, smile. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.840 Walk into every room, read it and give it what 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.920 it wants. And the problem is we're good at that. 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:42.679 We're so socially and emotionally competent that most of the 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.120 women I know do know how to walk in a room, 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:51.880 gauge the temperature, and adjust accordingly. And so it's a 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.439 skill set that can be used for our own empowerment, 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:57.840 but we were taught to use it for the comfort 0:10:57.880 --> 0:10:58.920 of everyone around us. 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:09.480 True, very true. Yeah, after I read what happened, where 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:15.080 you came from, how it all transpired, I felt immediately 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:20.560 excited for you, like genuinely excited for what is next 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.840 for you, because yeah, it sucked, it hurt, it blew 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:28.960 up your universe. But my excitement really comes from what 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:33.640 is basically what it feels like your rebirth. 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:38.079 Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for saying that. I 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:44.800 love hearing that, and that that thought, that perspective comes 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.920 from women who have already figured out how to live 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.240 in their own freedom, in their own autonomy, in their 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:58.319 own agency. And here's the good news about that that perspective. 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:05.000 It's true. You're right, it is true. We are so 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:12.960 interesting and capable and powerful. And I don't love the 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.679 system that sometimes something has to die in order for 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.600 that truth to live. But it is the truth. That 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:24.120 is how it is sometimes. And had I been more 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.560 honest back then, before I lost my marriage, I would 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.360 have already known that. I've already said that, And if 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.559 I would have been more courageous, I would have chosen 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:38.719 that before all this trauma chose me. Ye, But I'll 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.320 never know. I was too afraid to lose it all. 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.240 I couldn't. I didn't have vision for what it might 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.400 look like on the other side of that. The disruption 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.480 of it was such a deterrent that I was willing 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:56.240 to sit in my own unhappiness, in my own misalignment. 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.720 I guess forever, I think I would have stayed. I 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:02.319 think I would have stayed, So. 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:08.440 I feel exactly the same again. Completely different situation and circumstances, 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.240 but I hear you. I felt the same, like I 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.600 am supposed to keep this family together. I am supposed 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.640 to be the glue, you know, and if i am not, 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.000 then I'm a failure and I'm ashamed and all the 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.840 things we do to ourselves. 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:31.240 Totally totally and then even lacking the imagination for what 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:37.520 my kids, how resilient they are, I felt also in 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:42.040 a codependent way, responsible for their life experience, which meant, 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.640 if I'm a good mom, i am absolutely shielding them 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.840 from pain, from disruption, from loss. I'm certainly not going 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.600 to choose it for them. I you know, that is 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.480 such a ridiculous way to live and not true, not 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.000 true at all. But also so that kept me from 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:08.440 thinking with a clear head, what was the right thing 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.720 to do, what was the next best thing in my 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.520 life because I had this overdeveloped sense of responsibility for 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:16.800 literally everybody else in my life except myself. 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.400 Oh, this is where it gets good, because it wasn't 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.640 until your rebirth, I like to call it that that 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:26.760 you started to live in a completely different way, and 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.800 this is where choosing yourself really started to happen for you. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:36.320 Yes, I mean At first it was so terrifying. I 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.320 felt like I was in a constant free fall where 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.240 I was so used to my safety nets. I had 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:47.240 always had a partner, another person. I'd always had these 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.400 institutions that I had a lot of traditional success inside, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:56.200 which looked like marriage and to some degree like the 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.560 institution of church or faith or however you want to 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.400 put that. And I had so I had these like 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:07.000 big systems as my scaffolding, and so having like fail 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.760 fail on both of those, having lost a partner. So 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.640 now I'm all by myself in my upper forties trying 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.360 to figure out how to pay my taxes. So at 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.880 first it was just like a tailspin. Every single thing 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:26.720 was new, like everything, and everything was sort of consequential. 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.240 I mean, these weren't small things. But once I figured 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.800 out pretty quick, oh my god, I'm good at all this. 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:40.920 I'm smart, I'm super capable in my story, and this 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:42.960 is what mattered to me the most. I am trustworthy, 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.240 like I do not have to outsource my will being 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:50.400 to another person who is not safe ever again, ever again, 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.359 and hope that they treat hope that they have integrity, 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.880 and hope that they I will never do that again, 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.520 and I don't have to do it again because I'm 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:01.840 good enough for all of this, Like because you don't. 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.600 You never know when you put that kind of like 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.360 faith or responsibility or whatever it is that on someone else, 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:13.960 the good in you wants to think, if I have 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.120 faith in this person and I just believe it will 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.520 be so and they will take care of their end 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.080 of the responsibilities and treat me with respect and grow 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:28.600 old with me. But that doesn't do it. 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.880 It doesn't. And I had that story for a really 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.560 long time. You know, I didn't have twenty six years 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.480 of a tragic marriage, right, you know, I a lot 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.480 of that muscle memory was built in in a genuine 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.440 way where we were partnered and we were in the 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.120 same boat, growing in the same direction, and those were 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.800 like really lovely years and really beautiful years. And I 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.560 don't have regret. I don't know how to. I don't 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.680 know that regard wrehat has a place in anyone's story. 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.520 If I regret my whole marriage, I would have to 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.159 regret my whole life. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:07.760 And all the good things that you learned. 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.640 That's right, and the children, that's right, the all of it. Yeah, 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.159 that isn't I can't. That doesn't actually make sense to me. 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:19.840 But I think integrity would have been way more honest 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.480 when the train was beginning to leave the tracks, And 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.959 hindsight shows me I knew my body, knew my wisdom, 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.680 knew my intuition, knew my body was raising the flares 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.919 yep and going listen. We got some alarm bells, and 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:38.200 we would like you to pay attention. 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.720 And that always happens, but we don't. We either ignore 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.960 it or we pretend that it's not happening and we 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.520 just shove it aside because it's real inconvenient. 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.080 Oh my god, it's so inconvenient. And you know, I've 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.919 had some folks ask me, do you feel like you 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.560 ignored your own red flags, your own sense of knowing 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:06.240 that things were absolutely going wrong because of optics? Because 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.320 you have this public life and you had a public marriage, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.679 and you want you wanted people to think of you 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.399 in a certain way. And I would never be like 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.600 so unself aware to say that had No, that's a 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:23.400 non factor. But I feel like I can say, truthfully, 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:29.240 it's less that I wanted to appear a certain way 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.760 to other people and more that I actually wanted my 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.800 marriage to work. I just didn't want to face what 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.800 I knew I needed to face. I didn't want to 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:43.560 look directly at all these red flags waving in front 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.199 of my face because I did not want them to 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:49.959 be true. It's not that I didn't want to I 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.119 just didn't want it to be true. I'm like, I know, 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:54.399 I'm going to find our way through this. 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.359 Yes, you want that picket fence life, you know, and 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.520 you're building it and you seem to have and you 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:01.800 don't want to break it down. 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.159 No, And I even though I knew things were going 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:09.480 so wrong and we were so sideways and something at 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.360 the time, I couldn't exactly say what it was. Now, 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.760 of course I know, but something was very, very, very wrong. 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:21.600 But my little brain of denial just kept going, we'll 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.520 get through. We'll get there. I don't know how, but 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.720 he will get over this. He will come back to himself, 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.760 and then he will come back to me and this marriage, 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.200 and this will be a rough bump on the road, 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.440 but we will get over it. And I just told 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:44.600 myself that over and over, but without the necessary subsequent 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:49.320 steps of actually engaging everything that was wrong. It's like 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.080 I just kind of closed my eyes hence the title 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:56.000 of the book, awake and just went maybe this will 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:00.080 just work itself out while I'm not looking at it 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.160 seems like a great approach, like what could go wrong? 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:04.439 Why didn't that solve problems? 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.520 One of the things that I admire about women and 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.160 about you in situations like this, and I honestly admired 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.240 about myself. I spent a good amount of time and 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:20.600 blame and pointing the finger and being the victim. But 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.320 there comes a point when you have to stop pointing 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.560 the finger and start pulling the thumb and you have 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.160 to look at your pardon things. Yeah, and that's when 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:30.719 real change starts to happen. 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:37.359 Undoubtedly, I am so glad I did not write this 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:43.840 book three years ago. I was still living inside a 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:48.320 bit more of a trope of victim, villain, good, bad, guilty, 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:58.000 innocent that the earliest version of the story, which maybe 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.200 even has its place. Yep, I'm not even I'm not 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.280 even judging us for sitting in that place of just 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:09.240 absolute like betrayal and tragedy and loss to just go well, 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:13.359 just you know, fuck that guy. There's a place for that. 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:17.359 But to your point, that runs out of fuel. And 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.200 if we do not look at that differently and began 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.880 to go, all right, what's my part here? 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:24.359 Yeah? 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:29.560 What? What? What did I bring to this table? Where 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.280 was I complicit? And what did I sign on for? 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:38.360 Then we will just become this miserable, resentful victim. And 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.000 like my counselor told me a billion times when she 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.000 was working with me on all those codependent behaviors that 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:49.760 apparently I had deeply exhibited my entire marriage. She's like, look, 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.720 this is your problem. She's look at your problem where 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:54.639 you either deal with it? But yeah, I was like, 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.399 that's so, don't pay you to be mean to me, 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.040 Like I came here for you to tell me this 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.520 is his fault and poor me. But she's like, you'll 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:11.120 just walk these habits and these patterns right into your 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:13.359 next relationship. You will keep them up with your kids 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.480 where you're already exhibiting it. And I'm like, yeah, so 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:17.840 you're right. 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.520 And that's when you ask yourself, is that the life 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:22.199 I want? Is that the woman I want to be? 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:24.760 That's right? Is that the rooleman I want to be? 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.879 And I had nobody else left to take the blame. 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:37.480 And so part of independence includes being responsible for yourself 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:45.400 and your garbage and your dysfunctions. And that is where 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:49.800 I finally found myself after I got through the just 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.960 the bottom of the ocean season of grief where everything 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:57.000 is just chaos. By the time I kicked to the 0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:00.280 surface and had some fresh air again, I went right, 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:03.600 what's my deal? And I hope that that comes through 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:08.000 in the book. I hope that I was at least 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.159 self aware enough to go, Here's where I made our 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:18.600 marriage harder, worse, more difficult, and more unlikely to heal. 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:21.240 And I can see that now with much clearer eyes. 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.120 Yeah, I think it happens for so many of us, 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:28.160 because living in codependency or living in that world where 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:32.320 you are catering to someone or supporting your husband, your kids, 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:37.560 your household, you get so lost in it, and it's 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:40.639 really easy to not look in the mirror, to not 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:46.200 face the reality of your part in how things got 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:49.879 to where they are. And that is hard work. 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:55.440 Oh, it's horrible. It's so horrible, and that is the 0:23:56.920 --> 0:24:02.359 crucible for everyone who struggles with dependency because, by definition, 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.439 like our approach to all the people around us, the 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:10.560 ones that we married, the ones that we birthed, the 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:13.240 ones that we came from the friends that we've chosen. 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:19.600 Is this sense of responsibility for them, how they feel, 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:24.280 what they think, how they're behaving, how they are responding, 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:28.400 what is their environment? Is there any way we can 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:31.680 control the outcomes of their choices, because I'll sure try. 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:34.560 Yeah. I also want to make sure that everybody sees 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:36.000 them in their in their best light. 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.000 God, I know you, you know. 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:41.920 I read that in your book. That takes a lot 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:42.439 of energy. 0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:46.000 Well, and back to your point, I don't have time 0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:47.840 to look in the mirror. I'm too busy looking at 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:51.200 everyone else's mirrors. I'm making sure their mirrors are all 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:55.440 shined up for the world and for themselves, and I 0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:58.199 am taking on responsibilities that should be theirs. And so 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:02.520 that's at least with my care I robbed them of 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:07.240 a lot of independence because I came in with too 0:25:07.280 --> 0:25:10.280 much control, which, by the way, isn't even true. You 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:12.760 were never in control of somebody else. That is a lie. 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:17.080 That's an absolute lie. That's what you learn. It's an illusion. 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:20.920 It's more fun to live in that illusion, isn't it. 0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:25.959 It's just so much easier. I have so many ideas 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:29.400 about how everybody else should live. I mean and they're 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:33.080 such good ideas. If they would all just listen to me. 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:38.280 I have a vision for your behavior, and I just 0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:41.240