1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garland. Hello everyone, 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: welcome to I Choose Me, a podcast about the choices 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: we make. So this week's guest is not only birdening 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: a new book, she is also a brand new grandmother. 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: But welcoming Weston Joseph is not her only new beginning. 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: From the heartbreak of waking up to a marriage in 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: crisis to the treacherous work of rebuilding a life, Jen 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: Hatmaker has walked through fire and come out stronger, more vibrant, 9 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: and wide awake. Join Jen and me as we laugh 10 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: and cry through choosing ourselves the hard way and reaping 11 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: the rewards that only come from fierce self awareness and 12 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: uncomfortable healing. Oh I'm so excited to talk to you. 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: You have no idea. Okay, first, all things aside, you 14 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: are a hattie. 15 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is the most important thing we 16 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: could discuss. 17 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: It really is. 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: So. 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: I've heard women tell me in time, like lately more 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: and more how becoming a grandmother has changed their life. 21 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: Oh my god, how does that feel for you? It's 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 2: so it's so insane. This is my oldest son and 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: his wife. So this is first grandbaby and in our family. 24 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: This is first kid, first son, first grandkid, first great grandkid, 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: first nephew. Like he's doomed, Like he's absolutely doomed. And 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: we have this massive family prepared to over respond, over 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: attend to him. I mean they'll just I don't suspect 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: we'll have any restraint at all. And it's perfect, which 29 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: is great news for us. We got a perfect baby. 30 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. We're dreamy over here. 31 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: I bet West and Joseph. 32 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: Western, Joseph, I mean, I can't handle it. Like, and 33 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: these are new parents, if you know what I'm saying, 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: Like they're the young version of parents. They're different than 35 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: we were, and so they have a lot of boundaries 36 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: and like rules and whatever. And I just keep thinking, 37 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 2: that's fine. I want to be respectful. This is your kid, 38 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: you're the parents. But I swear to God if you 39 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: revoke my privileges in any way, I will mutiny. Mutiny. 40 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: You have to. I mean, yeah, that's not going to 41 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: be acceptable. 42 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: Thanks. 43 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I want to just talk about your. 44 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: Book, Okay. 45 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: I loved it. I felt so connected to your story, 46 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: even though it is not mine at all. There are 47 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 1: similarities in situations, but your upbringing very different from mine 48 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: and the way your early life. I mean, I feel 49 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: awake for you just from reading the book, because it 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: is the ultimate story of like figuring out who the 51 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: fuck you truly are, finally for yourself. Yeah yeah, And 52 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,399 Speaker 1: I love how you start the book from the end 53 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: and then you go back and give it all context 54 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: and great storytelling. Well done, and clapping for you, I think. 55 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: No, wonder, Oh god, what a nice thing to say. 56 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: I mean it because I'm looking at a strong, vibrant woman, 57 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: and before all this happened, you didn't even know how 58 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: to pay your mortgage. You know, you were in a 59 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: very different life than you are currently. 60 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so crazy to like say that. It's so 61 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: crazy to hear it back because even you know, I 62 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: lost my marriage five years ago after twenty six years 63 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: of marriage. You know, I was a child bride. You 64 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: were nineteen. It's insane. But even five years ago though, 65 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: I still had like this kind of career and this 66 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: this big life. But then when you strip away some 67 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: of the crutches, the places that I had been phoning it, 68 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 2: in the places where I had simply made assumptions of 69 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: trustworthiness or competency inside the marriage, that goes away and 70 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: I finally went shit, I don't know how much money 71 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: I make in a year? What am I doing? What 72 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: have I been doing? Like? What have I been doing? 73 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: And so the process of it was so chaotic because 74 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 2: on one hand, I am trying to simply get through 75 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 2: the day because the marriage, the ending of our marriage 76 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: was so disastrous and so traumatic and. 77 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: So shock for the people that don't know, give us 78 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: the tragic to the dates of the tragic. 79 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 2: It just ended in an affair, but not the kind 80 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 2: where I have something to tell you you I it 81 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: was all shock and all accidental, just middle of the 82 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: night discovery. Like everything, it's not original. It's not an 83 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: original story, it really is. I am offering nothing new 84 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: to the middle aged male lexicon here, but when it 85 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: happens to you, it is so so disruptive. It is 86 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: so tragic. And we have five kids, two of them 87 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: were in high school at the time. You know, we're 88 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 2: in it like we're in the thick of life. 89 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: And you're in business together. You're you know, you're doing 90 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: everything together as you were taught you should. 91 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: We were in lockstap we were running a nonprofit together 92 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: and previously had been in a ministry like that was 93 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: sort of our come up and was this very specific subculture. 94 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: And I just had never known as an independent adult 95 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: minute in my life. Again, I was a nineteen year 96 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: old bride, So we literally grew up together. We grew 97 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: up together, and sometimes, like this isn't a prescription to 98 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: say that never works. I've got plenty of friends who 99 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: had young marriages and they grew together, and yes, I'm 100 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: nice for them. How nice for them? We felt the 101 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 2: tension of our connective threads frying for quite some time 102 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: as we grew up and into sort of different spaces, 103 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 2: and well, we just grew up. You know, I didn't 104 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: know what kind of adult I was going to be 105 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: when I was a teenager, and neither he didn't know 106 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: what kind of adult he was going to be. 107 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: You guys, had you had the dreams. Sure you thought 108 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: you knew, and it seemed like you were so in 109 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: it together from the beginning of creating this magical, harmonious, 110 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: beautiful life that your parents lived and that the people 111 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: around you and your community are living. 112 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: And I was prepared because that structure works best when 113 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: the woman has a degree of subservience, when she is 114 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: saying you are kind of the leader of our marriage 115 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: and of our family and home. Your job matters the most, 116 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: your preferences. You're the tip of the spear, right and 117 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: and the rest of us are kind of back here, 118 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: just pushing you forward. And so, because that was the 119 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 2: environment that I grew up in a faith world, I 120 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: was prepared. I'm like, great, that's that's my gender limitation. 121 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: Like that is that I'm in lockstep with that job description. 122 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: And I will be a very good wing man, and 123 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: he will always be a trustworthy leader. And thus we 124 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: plugged ourselves into this outlet that promised a handful of 125 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: guaranteed outcomes. You know, everybody play their part, and you 126 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: do your thing, and you do yours, and you stay 127 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: here and you come forward, and then you get a 128 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 2: happy life. That's the transactional like structure. And so I 129 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 2: believed it. 130 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, why wouldn't you? 131 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: Why wouldn't I work for my parents? I saw it 132 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: work elsewhere. I you know, I didn't come up in 133 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: a generation where a ton of the women in my 134 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: ecosystem were questioning any of that. They were the cogs 135 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: in the machine. Of course, women are. I mean, it's 136 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: not as if the men are actually leading every system 137 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: and structure that exists on earth with integrity and excellence. 138 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: It's the women you know back there in the behind 139 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 2: the curtain. But it was fraying already. It was fraying 140 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: already and then disintegrating toward the end until it was 141 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: a catastrophe. 142 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: I have a certain level of respect for what you 143 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: just said about that, you the cog in the wheel, 144 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: like so many women feel. I have never felt that way. 145 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: So that's how different our stories are, but also so parallel. Yeah, 146 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: well I love I love hearing your story and hearing 147 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: what a different version of this looks like. 148 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. Right when I talk 149 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: about awake, I'm like, Okay, look, there's a small story 150 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: in here, and the small story is the story of 151 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 2: my divorce and recovery and rebuilding process. But there is 152 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: it is nestled inside a larger story, which, on one 153 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: level or another, virtually everybody in our generation and our 154 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 2: age group would go, oh, same on that one, same 155 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: on that one. We all grew up inside a patriarchal 156 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: culture in various rooms that we all found ourselves playing in. 157 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 2: There were some gender limitations, and they those existed in 158 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: different ways and they manifested differently, but we know what 159 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 2: they look like. We certainly got a story about our 160 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: bodies from the time we were what four younger, and 161 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: so that is ubiquitous for our age group. This story. 162 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: We this is what your body should look like, This 163 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 2: is what your body is good for, This is how 164 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: your body can be used. This is who your body. 165 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: Girl. Be a good girl, yep, make girl pleasant, smile. 166 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: Walk into every room, read it and give it what 167 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: it wants. And the problem is we're good at that. 168 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 2: We're so socially and emotionally competent that most of the 169 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: women I know do know how to walk in a room, 170 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 2: gauge the temperature, and adjust accordingly. And so it's a 171 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 2: skill set that can be used for our own empowerment, 172 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: but we were taught to use it for the comfort 173 00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: of everyone around us. 174 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: True, very true. Yeah, after I read what happened, where 175 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: you came from, how it all transpired, I felt immediately 176 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: excited for you, like genuinely excited for what is next 177 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: for you, because yeah, it sucked, it hurt, it blew 178 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: up your universe. But my excitement really comes from what 179 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: is basically what it feels like your rebirth. 180 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for saying that. I 181 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: love hearing that, and that that thought, that perspective comes 182 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: from women who have already figured out how to live 183 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: in their own freedom, in their own autonomy, in their 184 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 2: own agency. And here's the good news about that that perspective. 185 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: It's true. You're right, it is true. We are so 186 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: interesting and capable and powerful. And I don't love the 187 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 2: system that sometimes something has to die in order for 188 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 2: that truth to live. But it is the truth. That 189 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: is how it is sometimes. And had I been more 190 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 2: honest back then, before I lost my marriage, I would 191 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: have already known that. I've already said that, And if 192 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 2: I would have been more courageous, I would have chosen 193 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 2: that before all this trauma chose me. Ye, But I'll 194 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: never know. I was too afraid to lose it all. 195 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: I couldn't. I didn't have vision for what it might 196 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: look like on the other side of that. The disruption 197 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: of it was such a deterrent that I was willing 198 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: to sit in my own unhappiness, in my own misalignment. 199 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: I guess forever, I think I would have stayed. I 200 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: think I would have stayed, So. 201 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: I feel exactly the same again. Completely different situation and circumstances, 202 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: but I hear you. I felt the same, like I 203 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: am supposed to keep this family together. I am supposed 204 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: to be the glue, you know, and if i am not, 205 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: then I'm a failure and I'm ashamed and all the 206 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: things we do to ourselves. 207 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: Totally totally and then even lacking the imagination for what 208 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: my kids, how resilient they are, I felt also in 209 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 2: a codependent way, responsible for their life experience, which meant, 210 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: if I'm a good mom, i am absolutely shielding them 211 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 2: from pain, from disruption, from loss. I'm certainly not going 212 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 2: to choose it for them. I you know, that is 213 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: such a ridiculous way to live and not true, not 214 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: true at all. But also so that kept me from 215 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 2: thinking with a clear head, what was the right thing 216 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 2: to do, what was the next best thing in my 217 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: life because I had this overdeveloped sense of responsibility for 218 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: literally everybody else in my life except myself. 219 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: Oh, this is where it gets good, because it wasn't 220 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: until your rebirth, I like to call it that that 221 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: you started to live in a completely different way, and 222 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: this is where choosing yourself really started to happen for you. 223 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean At first it was so terrifying. I 224 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: felt like I was in a constant free fall where 225 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: I was so used to my safety nets. I had 226 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: always had a partner, another person. I'd always had these 227 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: institutions that I had a lot of traditional success inside, 228 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 2: which looked like marriage and to some degree like the 229 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: institution of church or faith or however you want to 230 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: put that. And I had so I had these like 231 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: big systems as my scaffolding, and so having like fail 232 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: fail on both of those, having lost a partner. So 233 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: now I'm all by myself in my upper forties trying 234 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: to figure out how to pay my taxes. So at 235 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: first it was just like a tailspin. Every single thing 236 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: was new, like everything, and everything was sort of consequential. 237 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: I mean, these weren't small things. But once I figured 238 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: out pretty quick, oh my god, I'm good at all this. 239 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: I'm smart, I'm super capable in my story, and this 240 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: is what mattered to me the most. I am trustworthy, 241 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: like I do not have to outsource my will being 242 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: to another person who is not safe ever again, ever again, 243 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,359 Speaker 2: and hope that they treat hope that they have integrity, 244 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: and hope that they I will never do that again, 245 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 2: and I don't have to do it again because I'm 246 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 2: good enough for all of this, Like because you don't. 247 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: You never know when you put that kind of like 248 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: faith or responsibility or whatever it is that on someone else, 249 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: the good in you wants to think, if I have 250 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: faith in this person and I just believe it will 251 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: be so and they will take care of their end 252 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: of the responsibilities and treat me with respect and grow 253 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: old with me. But that doesn't do it. 254 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: It doesn't. And I had that story for a really 255 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: long time. You know, I didn't have twenty six years 256 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 2: of a tragic marriage, right, you know, I a lot 257 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: of that muscle memory was built in in a genuine 258 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: way where we were partnered and we were in the 259 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: same boat, growing in the same direction, and those were 260 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: like really lovely years and really beautiful years. And I 261 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: don't have regret. I don't know how to. I don't 262 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 2: know that regard wrehat has a place in anyone's story. 263 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: If I regret my whole marriage, I would have to 264 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: regret my whole life. 265 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: And all the good things that you learned. 266 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 2: That's right, and the children, that's right, the all of it. Yeah, 267 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 2: that isn't I can't. That doesn't actually make sense to me. 268 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: But I think integrity would have been way more honest 269 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 2: when the train was beginning to leave the tracks, And 270 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 2: hindsight shows me I knew my body, knew my wisdom, 271 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 2: knew my intuition, knew my body was raising the flares 272 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 2: yep and going listen. We got some alarm bells, and 273 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 2: we would like you to pay attention. 274 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: And that always happens, but we don't. We either ignore 275 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: it or we pretend that it's not happening and we 276 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: just shove it aside because it's real inconvenient. 277 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so inconvenient. And you know, I've 278 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 2: had some folks ask me, do you feel like you 279 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: ignored your own red flags, your own sense of knowing 280 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: that things were absolutely going wrong because of optics? Because 281 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: you have this public life and you had a public marriage, 282 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 2: and you want you wanted people to think of you 283 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 2: in a certain way. And I would never be like 284 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: so unself aware to say that had No, that's a 285 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 2: non factor. But I feel like I can say, truthfully, 286 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: it's less that I wanted to appear a certain way 287 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 2: to other people and more that I actually wanted my 288 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: marriage to work. I just didn't want to face what 289 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: I knew I needed to face. I didn't want to 290 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: look directly at all these red flags waving in front 291 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 2: of my face because I did not want them to 292 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,959 Speaker 2: be true. It's not that I didn't want to I 293 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 2: just didn't want it to be true. I'm like, I know, 294 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 2: I'm going to find our way through this. 295 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: Yes, you want that picket fence life, you know, and 296 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: you're building it and you seem to have and you 297 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: don't want to break it down. 298 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: No, And I even though I knew things were going 299 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: so wrong and we were so sideways and something at 300 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: the time, I couldn't exactly say what it was. Now, 301 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: of course I know, but something was very, very, very wrong. 302 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 2: But my little brain of denial just kept going, we'll 303 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: get through. We'll get there. I don't know how, but 304 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: he will get over this. He will come back to himself, 305 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: and then he will come back to me and this marriage, 306 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 2: and this will be a rough bump on the road, 307 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 2: but we will get over it. And I just told 308 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: myself that over and over, but without the necessary subsequent 309 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: steps of actually engaging everything that was wrong. It's like 310 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: I just kind of closed my eyes hence the title 311 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: of the book, awake and just went maybe this will 312 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 2: just work itself out while I'm not looking at it 313 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: seems like a great approach, like what could go wrong? 314 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 2: Why didn't that solve problems? 315 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: One of the things that I admire about women and 316 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: about you in situations like this, and I honestly admired 317 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: about myself. I spent a good amount of time and 318 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: blame and pointing the finger and being the victim. But 319 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: there comes a point when you have to stop pointing 320 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: the finger and start pulling the thumb and you have 321 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: to look at your pardon things. Yeah, and that's when 322 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 1: real change starts to happen. 323 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 2: Undoubtedly, I am so glad I did not write this 324 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: book three years ago. I was still living inside a 325 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: bit more of a trope of victim, villain, good, bad, guilty, 326 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: innocent that the earliest version of the story, which maybe 327 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: even has its place. Yep, I'm not even I'm not 328 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: even judging us for sitting in that place of just 329 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: absolute like betrayal and tragedy and loss to just go well, 330 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: just you know, fuck that guy. There's a place for that. 331 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 2: But to your point, that runs out of fuel. And 332 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: if we do not look at that differently and began 333 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 2: to go, all right, what's my part here? 334 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? 335 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: What? What? What did I bring to this table? Where 336 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 2: was I complicit? And what did I sign on for? 337 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 2: Then we will just become this miserable, resentful victim. And 338 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: like my counselor told me a billion times when she 339 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: was working with me on all those codependent behaviors that 340 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: apparently I had deeply exhibited my entire marriage. She's like, look, 341 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: this is your problem. She's look at your problem where 342 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 2: you either deal with it? But yeah, I was like, 343 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 2: that's so, don't pay you to be mean to me, 344 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: Like I came here for you to tell me this 345 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: is his fault and poor me. But she's like, you'll 346 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 2: just walk these habits and these patterns right into your 347 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: next relationship. You will keep them up with your kids 348 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: where you're already exhibiting it. And I'm like, yeah, so 349 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: you're right. 350 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: And that's when you ask yourself, is that the life 351 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 1: I want? Is that the woman I want to be? 352 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: That's right? Is that the rooleman I want to be? 353 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: And I had nobody else left to take the blame. 354 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: And so part of independence includes being responsible for yourself 355 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 2: and your garbage and your dysfunctions. And that is where 356 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 2: I finally found myself after I got through the just 357 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: the bottom of the ocean season of grief where everything 358 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: is just chaos. By the time I kicked to the 359 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: surface and had some fresh air again, I went right, 360 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 2: what's my deal? And I hope that that comes through 361 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 2: in the book. I hope that I was at least 362 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 2: self aware enough to go, Here's where I made our 363 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: marriage harder, worse, more difficult, and more unlikely to heal. 364 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: And I can see that now with much clearer eyes. 365 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it happens for so many of us, 366 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: because living in codependency or living in that world where 367 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: you are catering to someone or supporting your husband, your kids, 368 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: your household, you get so lost in it, and it's 369 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: really easy to not look in the mirror, to not 370 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: face the reality of your part in how things got 371 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: to where they are. And that is hard work. 372 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 2: Oh, it's horrible. It's so horrible, and that is the 373 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 2: crucible for everyone who struggles with dependency because, by definition, 374 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 2: like our approach to all the people around us, the 375 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: ones that we married, the ones that we birthed, the 376 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: ones that we came from the friends that we've chosen. 377 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: Is this sense of responsibility for them, how they feel, 378 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: what they think, how they're behaving, how they are responding, 379 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 2: what is their environment? Is there any way we can 380 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: control the outcomes of their choices, because I'll sure try. 381 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I also want to make sure that everybody sees 382 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: them in their in their best light. 383 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: God, I know you, you know. 384 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: I read that in your book. That takes a lot 385 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: of energy. 386 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: Well, and back to your point, I don't have time 387 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: to look in the mirror. I'm too busy looking at 388 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: everyone else's mirrors. I'm making sure their mirrors are all 389 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: shined up for the world and for themselves, and I 390 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 2: am taking on responsibilities that should be theirs. And so 391 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: that's at least with my care I robbed them of 392 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 2: a lot of independence because I came in with too 393 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 2: much control, which, by the way, isn't even true. You 394 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: were never in control of somebody else. That is a lie. 395 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: That's an absolute lie. That's what you learn. It's an illusion. 396 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: It's more fun to live in that illusion, isn't it. 397 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 2: It's just so much easier. I have so many ideas 398 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 2: about how everybody else should live. I mean and they're 399 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: such good ideas. If they would all just listen to me. 400 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: I have a vision for your behavior, and I just 401 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: if you'll sit down and listen for thirty five minutes, 402 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: I will give it to you. But it doesn't work 403 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: that way. That only creates resentment, that deteriorates relationships, It 404 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: steals autonomy from everybody around you. It's that is a 405 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: sinking ship. 406 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: For sure. Okay, So speaking of your children, you said 407 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: that two of them were in high school when this 408 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: all went down, but they had grown up in that house. 409 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 2: That's right. 410 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: They were suffering the dysfunction in their own ways, but 411 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: probably oblivious also because that was just their life. Yeah, 412 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: how did they take the news initially? And how are 413 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: they doing now? 414 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: That first year when I was so afraid of their 415 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: own of their pain, I was just so afraid of it. 416 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: I remember one day my daughter Sydney, who at the 417 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: time was twenty, and we were in the living room. 418 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 2: I remember where I was standing when she was talking 419 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 2: about how she was feeling and what felt sad and 420 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: what felt hard and what still felt really confusing. And 421 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 2: I was so committed, I was so uncomfortable with her 422 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: pain that I did what I do what codependents do, 423 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 2: which is try to huh somebody else through their actual 424 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 2: experience to get to the ending I want for them. 425 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 2: So I'm I'm ten miles down the road trying to 426 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: protect her future relationship with her dad, her future wholeness 427 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 2: and wellness. I have this thing that I want her 428 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 2: to get to, like down the street, and so I'm 429 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 2: shoving her that direction with you know, don't forget, and 430 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: I'm massaging the truth. Well, you know one thing that 431 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: you know, I hope you can understand, was And finally 432 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 2: she just stopped me and she said, Mom, when you 433 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 2: do this, when you do what you're doing right now, 434 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: you are making me feel so lonely, like I am 435 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 2: the only person still sitting here in this room, sad, hurt, confused. 436 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 2: You are making me feel all alone in my pain, 437 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: like you are well past it, and you are dragging 438 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: me try to get past it, and it's making it work. 439 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 2: And I was like, holy shit, wow. And I took 440 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: that to my therapist of course that week and told 441 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: her all this and she goes, all right, Jen, here's 442 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 2: what you need to know, especially the ages of your 443 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: kids period. And this is probably a rule for me 444 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. She's like, at this point, 445 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: you need to prioritize comfort over coaching. And she's like, 446 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: if you reach for coaching first, you isolate your kids 447 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: and you make them feel alone. 448 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're right, so true. I can relate 449 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: to that as well. Trying to fix it for them, 450 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: trying to give them the tools that you know they're 451 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: going to need, help them get to where they can 452 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: be healthy again and not be saddled. Oh my gosh, 453 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: it's so true. And all you need to do is 454 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: just hug them and just let them have their feelings because. 455 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: They're going to have them. It doesn't matter what we 456 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: do or don't you do, they're going to have them. 457 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: So we might as well get in there with them, 458 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: hold their little hands and say I cannot fix this. 459 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 2: You're going to have to just feel this and experience it. 460 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: But I at least will never leave you alone in it. 461 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: I'm right next to you. 462 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things I learned in therapy 463 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: was because I want to fix things too, I so 464 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: badly want to make everybody feel better and know that 465 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: you're going to end up okay. Yeah, But I learned 466 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: a saying that I've used many, many times with my 467 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: girls throughout the many years that we've gone through this. 468 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: I say I wish I had a magic wand and 469 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: I could change things h or make everything better perfect, 470 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: but I won't have that. And it kind of gave 471 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: them a new way of understanding and also me that 472 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: like realization that I can't fix it. 473 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: That's right, but it's such a nice thing to say, 474 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: I wish I could. I do not wish this pain 475 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: for you. I do not wish this suffering. I can't, 476 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: but I wish. Yep. It's such a lovely that's sitting 477 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: next to them saying I'm at least here, I'll feel 478 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: it with you. I can't change it, but you at 479 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: least will not be alone in it. I think that's everything. 480 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: I think our kids are just going to have to 481 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 2: live a real life like we did. It's unfortunate. I 482 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 2: really wanted to work around Yeah, it's inevitable. 483 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Okay, so let's widen out for a second. Okay, 484 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: life exploded, hard work, self awareness. Now you're on what 485 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: you rightly call a midlife renaissance. In this stage of life, 486 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: you know you are reconnecting with yourself how are you 487 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: doing that? And are you intentionally choosing how you want 488 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: your life to look more moving forward? 489 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: Some of the some of the bones of that new 490 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 2: person came from necessity, because I had to learn how 491 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: to become just a functional, daily independent person for all. 492 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: And I have a big life, just like we have 493 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: big lives. They have a lot of moving parts, we 494 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 2: have a lot of people in them. Work is big. 495 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: I have a big family, like nothing as small in 496 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: my whole life. And so some of just the functionality 497 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 2: of all right, here's all my own, here's my own 498 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: retirement plan, here's I drafted a will like boring life adulting, 499 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: which I had to do and had a incredible It 500 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: was an accelerant to this deep, new growing sense of 501 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: pride like I can not only can I do all this, 502 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: I've done it, I learned it, I tackled it. I'm 503 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 2: better at it than even my partner was. I'm more responsible, 504 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 2: I'm more trustworthy, I am in charge of my own future. Period. 505 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: I do not have a plan. 506 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: B You abolt to identify in that stage a newfound 507 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: love for yourself. 508 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: Oh my god, every day felt kick ass for a while. 509 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 2: Every day was just like I'm doing it. I am 510 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: making so awesome. I'm so awesome, Like I've done so 511 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: many hard things while by the way, we're all trying 512 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: to recover emotionally and like psychologically, and then there's all 513 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: these logistical things that just happen. So all of that together, 514 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: I think coming to terms. And this is for anybody 515 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: with what we are actually capable of is pretty incredible 516 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 2: to bear witness to. And so some of that was 517 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: just by nature of doing which I don't need a 518 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: parade because I had to. So it's not even like 519 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 2: I like, I'm going to choose to figure out how 520 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: to pay my quarterly taxes, you know, had Yeah, I 521 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: had to. I had to. But then I did it, 522 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: and then I was like, oh, wow, what else can 523 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 2: I do? I guess I can do anything. I guess 524 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: I can do anything. 525 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: And so that when you survive something like what you 526 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: went through, what we go through, when these things happen, yeah, 527 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: you realize like there is nothing I can't handle. 528 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: I kind of that is true, and this is a 529 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 2: dark version of what you just said. But also it 530 00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 2: built something else strong in me, which was now I'm 531 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: not there's nothing else I can lose like I lost 532 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 2: what was so precious, what felt so important to me 533 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 2: and so valuable that I didn't even have a vision 534 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 2: for my life without my marriage, like without my intact 535 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 2: family in the way that I had always known it 536 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 2: and built it, And so having lost it, I also 537 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 2: ended up going well, I'm way less afraid to lose 538 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: anything else at this point. I feel like I am 539 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 2: less risk averse. I'm less attached to what anybody literally 540 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 2: in the world thinks of me, or their assessment of me, 541 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 2: or whether they understand me or they're misinterpreting me. I'm 542 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 2: just less connected to it. I feel like I've already 543 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: done my losing at such a high level, and I'd 544 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 2: already lost a version of my career before, right, So 545 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 2: I'm like, what else? What else? I those external factors 546 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 2: now have less power over me because I lost them 547 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 2: and lived, And so I like this version of me 548 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: on the on the downslope of suffering because I go, okay, okay, 549 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: I don't have to make decisions just based on fear anymore, 550 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: because I'm too afraid to lose something. I I think 551 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: I can make decisions more out of integrity, more out 552 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: of alignment, And that goes into a lot of categories, 553 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 2: and so that was a really unusual and surprising outcome 554 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 2: to loss. 555 00:35:51,120 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, it's the best outcome. Okay, So a little 556 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: bit of a fast forward. I adore what you found 557 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 1: your met Camp. Oh, I know, I love it so much. 558 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: It like rings all my bells. Tell our listeners about that, 559 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: because it's wow, what a thing you found for yourself 560 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: that helped you through such a difficult time. 561 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 2: That was my favorite entry to write in the whole book, 562 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: by the way. I loved it. And you know that 563 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 2: the book is set up just in it's not in chapters, 564 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: it's just in vignettes, and so there's just three sections, 565 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 2: the end, the middle, and in the beginning, and met 566 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 2: Camp is the first entry in the beginning. It's that 567 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 2: back third of the story where the sun rose again, 568 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 2: where the sun came out. And I'm like, I'm going 569 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 2: to make it. I I'm not just gonna make it. 570 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 2: I'm going to be happy again. I wasn't sure about 571 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: that my first year. I'm going to be happy again. 572 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 2: I my life is in front of me. But me 573 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 2: Camp was an accidental life changer. I we had come 574 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 2: up on the first summer, so I was right at 575 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 2: the one year mark, and my youngest was going to 576 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 2: a month of camp, of summer camp, and she needed it. 577 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: We were both broken. Our bodies were broken, our brains 578 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: were broken, our hearts were broken. So she's going to 579 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,439 Speaker 2: this pure, wholesome, beautiful camp in Maine. I had never 580 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 2: been to Maine in my life, but I know that's 581 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 2: the right response for anybody who's ever been to Maine. 582 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 2: They're like, oh Maine. Yeah, so dreamy, so dreamy. But 583 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: she's going to Maine. But she was still pretty fragile, 584 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 2: and so, in an absolute spontaneous blaze of glory, I 585 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 2: tell her, honey, how about this. This is three weeks 586 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: before camp starts and I had just signed her up. 587 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 2: We were just in crisis. That's a whole different story. 588 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: I'm like, if I come to Maine the whole time 589 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: that you're at camp, so that if you need me 590 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 2: for any reason, I can be there in two hours. 591 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: I just felt like I needed to put this emotional 592 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 2: safety net under her. Well, how am I saying? 593 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: Like? 594 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 2: What am I even talking about? I've never even been 595 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 2: to Maine. I don't even know what I'm saying. 596 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: Have you ever been gone on a trip by yourself. 597 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: I've never even been in the movies by myself. Like, 598 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 2: what am I doing? 599 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: You know? 600 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: And so in like a minute, I had to figure 601 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 2: out what am I. I guess I'm going to have 602 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 2: to figure out a town in Maine and then maybe 603 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 2: a house. I don't know. So fast forward, I end 604 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 2: up renting this house in Bar Harbor for the duration 605 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: of her camp, this entire camp, and it changed my life. 606 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 2: I know that that sounds hyperbolic, but here I am 607 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: traveling by myself for the first time in my life. 608 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 2: I'm forty seven years old, I old independent, I'm I'm 609 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 2: paying for it myself. I'm on my own dime. I'm 610 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: in this beautiful, idealic Hallmark movie of a town. I 611 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,720 Speaker 2: am delighted beyond anything I can ever explain. 612 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: Everything is like fresh and new. 613 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 2: I'm in a movie. I'm in a movie. Every store, 614 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 2: every dog, every sweatshirt. It was cool and beautiful. I 615 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 2: just could not and all of a sudden I realized, 616 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I'm good company. I like me. I 617 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 2: choose me if you will, and I it changed me 618 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 2: so much that independent joy. It wasn't just independent. I've 619 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 2: been independent for a year, but it was that independent 620 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 2: delight to be able to just absolutely delight in life 621 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 2: again on my own, not because somebody, because I got 622 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,919 Speaker 2: a new boyfriend, or you know, some some external thing 623 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 2: came into my life to bring me joy. Agan, it 624 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: was just just me, just me being happy by myself 625 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 2: and so delightful that I have repeated I called it 626 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 2: me Camp and I didn't mean. I didn't mean to 627 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 2: brand it, but remy my daughter was at camp and 628 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,839 Speaker 2: I was like, well she's at camp. I guess I'm 629 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 2: at camp. I'm at me Camp, and I just branded 630 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 2: it on the spot. I have now done it five 631 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 2: summers in a row. So now every single July, I 632 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 2: travel by myself one small little town somewhere. I've never 633 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 2: been on the water somewhere, and it is maybe the greatest, 634 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 2: most outrageous thing I've ever done. 635 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: I need to go to Mee Camp so bad right now, 636 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: I mean that sounds just so good. 637 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 2: Go. I know so many women since I I've done 638 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 2: me Camps now for five summers do him. And so 639 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 2: every summer, like my community starts going off on their 640 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 2: meat camp plans. I just nothing can make me happier 641 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 2: in life. And seeing all these women and some of 642 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 2: them are perfectly happily married. You don't have to have 643 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 2: your life fall apart to do this. But they're just 644 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 2: like and who travels for a month? I understand that's insane, 645 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:22,919 Speaker 2: But a lot of them will be like, I'm going 646 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 2: for four days by myself. 647 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: I'm like, off, you go, there you go. 648 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 2: You're a good company, you don't need anybody, but you 649 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:31,720 Speaker 2: go do it. 650 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: Isn't it the best feeling to be able to take 651 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: tragedy in your life and turn it not only into 652 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: something that changes your life for the better, but also 653 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: you're able to change other people's lives because of it. Oh, 654 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: It's like, it's like, it doesn't get me better than that. 655 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 2: It's everything. It's absolutely everything. I The joy and the 656 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 2: loyalty and the support and the encouragement that I have 657 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 2: received from my community just living the story in front 658 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 2: of them for the last five years is it is unmatched. 659 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 2: I don't even know how to I actually don't know 660 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 2: how to describe it. But it's like we take turns, 661 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 2: we take turns, going Okay, I have an idea. It's 662 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 2: called me camp, y'all go, And then they're like, okay, 663 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 2: we have an idea. How about you do this. It's 664 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 2: just beautiful. Women are the best. Women are literally the best. 665 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: I didn't know that until I found my community, and yep, 666 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: it was on social like finding women that were in 667 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: similar situations, are going through the same life phases. And 668 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,240 Speaker 1: I never knew how much comfort I could feel from 669 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: that support and then in turn the just absolute joy 670 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,399 Speaker 1: of being able to help somebody else get there. 671 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,280 Speaker 2: Oh my god, Jenny, it's the truth, and we're all 672 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,720 Speaker 2: just doing that for each other. I was just writing 673 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 2: this to my community and telling them that because people 674 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 2: ask me a lot, and this is a very fair question, 675 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 2: why would you want to write such a personal memoir? 676 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 2: Like it's it's in there, man, like it is very vulnerable, 677 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 2: it is, and I put things in there that I 678 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 2: don't know, and they're like, why would you want to 679 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 2: do this? And when it all fell apart in twenty 680 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 2: twenty and I have such a public facing life and 681 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 2: I have this huge community of women, and also I 682 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 2: don't have I honestly do not have the gear to 683 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 2: carry on as usual when something is tragic. So I 684 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 2: just went radio silent. I just completely went offline. I 685 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 2: canceled everything in my life, pulled out of everything on 686 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 2: my calendar and went off social media entirely. So since 687 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 2: my community is located there, that's noticed. So everybody's like, 688 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 2: what is what is going on? And so when I 689 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 2: finally had to come and tell my community that this 690 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 2: marriage that I have been putting in front of them 691 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 2: for almost twenty years was destroyed, and I was so 692 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,879 Speaker 2: afraid had I blown my credibility? 693 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: Like had I had you let people down? 694 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 2: Had I let them down? I talked about marriage and 695 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 2: family for so long, like I just had no idea. 696 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 2: I just didn't even know. But the amount of love 697 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 2: and encouragement that I got back of women saying endless, 698 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 2: women less, I'll never get to the bottom, of them 699 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:30,359 Speaker 2: saying we've been there, We've already walked that road. You're 700 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 2: gonna be okay, keep going, keep walking, keep coming. I 701 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 2: promise you your life is not over. And at the 702 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 2: time it fell over. So I thought this, I don't 703 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 2: know this truth yet, but I told them that for 704 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 2: me felt like all these women holding up these lanterns 705 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 2: from further and down the path, when at the time 706 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 2: I could not see two inches in front of my face. 707 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 2: Everything was I was in a dark night of the soul, 708 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 2: and here's all these women holding up their lanterns going 709 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 2: you're gonna be okay, keep going, we promise was so 710 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 2: meaningful and important to my recovery process, and so thus 711 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 2: to me, I feel like awake is my lantern. It's 712 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,240 Speaker 2: my turn. It's my turn to hold up my lantern 713 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 2: and to tell women keep going, keep coming. The second 714 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 2: half of our lives, I suspect, are our best days, 715 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 2: no matter what, no matter what we've lost, no matter 716 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 2: what's changing, no matter what we're transitioning into or out of. 717 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 2: This is my lantern to say, keep walking and you 718 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 2: can do it. I believe it, I really believe it. 719 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 2: Live my story is not special. Yeah, and I'm not special. 720 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 2: I'm not. Nothing about my story is special and I'm 721 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,240 Speaker 2: not so if I have lived it, anyone can period. 722 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 1: Yep. Oh it's the best, the best, the best message. Okay, 723 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: you've had what sounds like just a season of choosing yourself, 724 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,360 Speaker 1: which brah bah. But before I let you go, yeah, 725 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: jin hatmaker, I want to ask you what was your 726 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: last I choose me moment? 727 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 2: M As you know, because you know this well, this 728 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 2: is a real busy season, like anytime you're putting a 729 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,280 Speaker 2: book out. It is it is a it is a marathon, 730 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,319 Speaker 2: and it is on the gas at all times, so 731 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 2: this is not a good time to take time off. However, 732 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,000 Speaker 2: my three best friends all live right here. One of 733 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:29,240 Speaker 2: them lives right across the street. 734 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 735 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 2: Two of them live on the street over, so we 736 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 2: are point zero two miles from each other. And in 737 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,799 Speaker 2: case that's too far, we have a golf cart so 738 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 2: that we don't have to walk that far. And two 739 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 2: of us have August birthdays, and so the other two 740 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 2: planned this whole surprise three day birthday weekend. They didn't 741 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 2: We did not know where we were going. We did 742 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 2: not know what we were doing. They just told us 743 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,879 Speaker 2: what to pack, and this was not a great time 744 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 2: to do it. I had I have enough work now 745 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 2: to last twenty days a week. And I just told 746 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 2: everybody in my whole team, I'm like, these days are 747 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 2: blocked completely. And they're like, oh wow, oh we hate 748 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 2: that for us. Yeah, I'm like, I ain't going for you, 749 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 2: but I know. And so I spent three days on 750 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 2: the lake with my girlfriends, acting insane and being idiots 751 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 2: and wearing matching pajamas they had made for us and 752 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,800 Speaker 2: eating food and playing games and drinking wine and laying 753 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 2: by the pool, and it was just marvelous. That sounds 754 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 2: so nice, doesn't it. 755 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 1: God, I'm happy for you. 756 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:43,359 Speaker 2: Thank you. 757 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,239 Speaker 1: The book, you guys, is called Awake, a Memoir, and 758 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,280 Speaker 1: it is out now. Be sure to get it because 759 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: you are gonna love it. 760 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 2: Thanks Jenny, thank you.