Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Danish Sports and this is Popcorn Book Club
Speaker 1: for my heart radio show, where four of my smartest
Speaker 1: and funniest friends get together to talk about books that
Speaker 1: are getting the Hollywood treatment. This episode, we continue our
Speaker 1: conversation about Sally Rooney's Normal People, and things are really
Speaker 1: heating up. I just wanted to know what you guys
Speaker 1: thought about that for those of you who watched the
Speaker 1: show and got to the nak parts. At the risk
Speaker 1: of sounding like the creepiest pervert in the entire world,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. Here we go. Yeah, thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. I think right now we're at college.
Speaker 1: Connell has you know, come into their friends group. Um,
Speaker 1: this is a place where Marian has more social capital
Speaker 1: over him, and he is someone who is both worth
Speaker 1: off financially and is having a little bit of a
Speaker 1: tougher time fitting in. Jennifer, you want to sort of
Speaker 1: take the next step. Um. Yeah, so she we've touched
Speaker 1: on this a little bit, but she has an apartment
Speaker 1: in the city. Um of where Connal is working at
Speaker 1: a restaurant. I think the restaurant shuts down or he
Speaker 1: gets fired. Um, and something happens. Um. If he's going
Speaker 1: to spend the summer in the city, he needs to
Speaker 1: find a place to stay without paying any rent, and
Speaker 1: he wants to ask Marianne if he can stay at
Speaker 1: her place, and he kind of has a conversation planned
Speaker 1: out in his head, and then he never is able
Speaker 1: to articulate that, I just want to move in with
Speaker 1: you for the summer. I want us to be together
Speaker 1: in the way that you know, it wouldn't be that
Speaker 1: big a deal if you'd been dating someone for a
Speaker 1: significant amount of time. And it seems like he had
Speaker 1: been staying like most nights at her place. He was
Speaker 1: already there most nights, and yeah, yeah, um, so that
Speaker 1: does not happen, and that's kind of parting of the
Speaker 1: ways for them again. I think that scene, which I
Speaker 1: do want to talk about zoom in a little bit
Speaker 1: in focus, was the most effective use of the book's device,
Speaker 1: which is switching between their perspectives the book chapter my chapter.
Speaker 1: We get a story from Maryann's side, and then we
Speaker 1: you know, either jump forward in time or just flipped
Speaker 1: to Connal's side. And I think that scene seeing it
Speaker 1: from hearing it, I think first we hear mary Anne's
Speaker 1: memory of it, playing out where he just sort of said, like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going back and I want to see other people,
Speaker 1: and she's sort of is heartbroken about it, and he
Speaker 1: sort of breaks his own heart accidentally because he doesn't
Speaker 1: know how to say, Hey, I'm you know, don't have
Speaker 1: enough a job right now? Can I live at your apartment?
Speaker 1: Which is a you know, embarrassing thing to say, but
Speaker 1: with a girlfriend, the type of intimacy that you hope
Speaker 1: someone would have. Melissa, what do you What did you
Speaker 1: make of that scene? I mean it broke my heart
Speaker 1: because it felt like I felt like I've had those
Speaker 1: conversations in my like college and post college is where
Speaker 1: I like can't quite say the thing that I planned
Speaker 1: to say. Like that was a moment where I did
Speaker 1: feel like sympathetic and related to Connell, where there was
Speaker 1: something embarrassing or like a little bit It's something that
Speaker 1: I would feel and secure bringing up and then I
Speaker 1: just don't, you know, like I like write it down
Speaker 1: and like figure out the words, and then I just
Speaker 1: don't say it. And I think that is so common,
Speaker 1: and it's like that heartbreak of like if one of
Speaker 1: them had just said what they wanted it would have
Speaker 1: they would have not broken up. I mean it's embarrassing
Speaker 1: for Connell. He I mean, I think Salarly Rooney establishes
Speaker 1: really well, like the fact that his mom is a
Speaker 1: what did we say, house house cleaner house? Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: I mean that is you know, in in especially in
Speaker 1: like young people. I think that is not humiliating a
Speaker 1: nor more job, but as type of subservience that I
Speaker 1: think for insecure people, uh does communicate this sort of
Speaker 1: embarrassing position. And I think it what is something that
Speaker 1: Kneal is embarrassed to say, like I can't afford the
Speaker 1: situation right now? Do you think that's part of why
Speaker 1: he relishes his power over Maryanne so much that now
Speaker 1: he has complete power over a girl whose mother used
Speaker 1: to be her housekeeper, and yet he didn't use his power,
Speaker 1: Like if you have complete power over this person and
Speaker 1: you need a place to stay, why why couldn't you
Speaker 1: do that? What do you what? What do you guys
Speaker 1: think was his big Maybe thought would have put him
Speaker 1: in a position for he would have had to have
Speaker 1: seen himself as powerless. Yeah, he's spending his power giving
Speaker 1: her power over him. That definitely was a moment that
Speaker 1: I felt most sympathetic to Konel as well, and then
Speaker 1: remember that like he's like one. I would have felt
Speaker 1: the same way to have just like being this person
Speaker 1: who you're in college and you want to think that
Speaker 1: you're an adult that can like live and work and
Speaker 1: like provide for yourself, and to be in this relationship
Speaker 1: that you haven't labeled or like is in a kind
Speaker 1: of weird gray zone. I would have been the same
Speaker 1: move just like not knowing what to say or feeling
Speaker 1: too embarrassed to say, and like that that weird gap
Speaker 1: of feeling immature and also that I should be a
Speaker 1: full formed adult at felt it brought me back. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I went to a college that had a lot
Speaker 1: of wealthy people, and I was friends with a lot
Speaker 1: of wealthy people and I was not wealthy, and it
Speaker 1: was it was the same in high school, but in
Speaker 1: college it was different because you have you you stay
Speaker 1: in place that you stay in different kinds of apartments.
Speaker 1: You either you're working in college or you're not working.
Speaker 1: And I think it's the first time where you really
Speaker 1: see that divide between friends where it is you have
Speaker 1: to make different choices and so one you're learning how
Speaker 1: to be an adult, even if you're not fully an
Speaker 1: adult yet, and I feel like you bungle that a
Speaker 1: lot of the time. And at the same time, like
Speaker 1: Maryanne doesn't recognize her privilege and realize that, like oh'connell
Speaker 1: doesn't have a job, he might need something that I
Speaker 1: have never thought to need, you know. And another thing
Speaker 1: that the book establishes about Connell's central personality trait early
Speaker 1: on in high school is like he is someone who
Speaker 1: is terrified of rocking the boat in any way, of
Speaker 1: like being a burden or a strain on the smooth
Speaker 1: flowing system in any capacity where it's like as someone
Speaker 1: who would rather stab myself than ask a human being
Speaker 1: for anything. Ever. Um, that is something I'm working on,
Speaker 1: but it's like something I relate to very very uh profoundly.
Speaker 1: I do wonder if the option were instead of the
Speaker 1: option in the book right now as it's stands, is
Speaker 1: that he had to either stay in Dublin with her
Speaker 1: or go back to Karrickly when he can't afford rent. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: so he can't afford rent, but he will have a
Speaker 1: place to stay either way, if it were either homelessness,
Speaker 1: like genuine homelessness, or staying with her, do you guys
Speaker 1: think he would have opened his mouth and said something.
Speaker 1: Do you think because he had a safety net of
Speaker 1: staying with his mother and karrically that he didn't say anything.
Speaker 1: And it was just because when because when he was
Speaker 1: mug when he was robbed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was
Speaker 1: very comfortable when he was Melissa asking for well and
Speaker 1: also like asking for money. He was ashamed of it,
Speaker 1: but then like happily took the hundred dollars and did
Speaker 1: it in it even then while he was breaking her heart,
Speaker 1: which was so like, oh, by the way, I have
Speaker 1: a girlfriend and I'm just mad you have a boyfriend.
Speaker 1: That that was a bad look for Conall as she
Speaker 1: literally told him get out, and he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but couldn't have that money me first, But it was
Speaker 1: needed to your point, it was the need. He did
Speaker 1: need it. He needed to get to get a right
Speaker 1: to get a cab home, so he did ask her
Speaker 1: for the thing. Let's when it was dire. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about that scene, Jennifer. You want to dive back in
Speaker 1: and walk us through this really bad, really painful. I
Speaker 1: actually do want to talk just a little bit in general,
Speaker 1: if we can about Conal's relationship with money, because it's
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating to me, especially if we're supposed to
Speaker 1: have a Marxist reading on this book, that Conal's fantasy
Speaker 1: of what he'll do with his life is he'll go
Speaker 1: off and become a lawyer and he'll make like, he'll
Speaker 1: make a really solid amount of money. And that's what
Speaker 1: he initially thinks he's going to do and living. He's
Speaker 1: going to make a comfortable living and people are going
Speaker 1: to say he did well. Um. And the minute he
Speaker 1: gets a scholarship and he has disposable income, he talks
Speaker 1: about how dirty and sexy it feels. Um and um.
Speaker 1: I I think that's an interest in money that we
Speaker 1: never really see from Marianne because she never needs to
Speaker 1: think about it in that way. And um. Yeah. The
Speaker 1: scene that we're talking about where he gets mugged, Maryanne
Speaker 1: is having a party, um, and he goes over to
Speaker 1: her house. Her boyfriend is there at the time. He
Speaker 1: goes over to her house, kind of stumbles in, very
Speaker 1: drunk and just having been mugged, and tells her tells
Speaker 1: her that he needs money and he needs help getting home,
Speaker 1: and also he has a girlfriend. He's burning to mary Anne.
Speaker 1: I think that it's worth, it's well. He says that
Speaker 1: her number was the only number that you could remember
Speaker 1: by that right, which I think also is emblematic of
Speaker 1: the fact that this is a modern story and not
Speaker 1: like a jay No novel. Dress stop. But I think
Speaker 1: that it's important to say that he tells her that
Speaker 1: he has a girlfriend after he says that he would
Speaker 1: rather she date literally anyone other than Jamie, including the
Speaker 1: guy who just nu him. Yes, that's true. YEA quick
Speaker 1: A quick note on the only knowing her number by heart.
Speaker 1: I thought that was a very sweet and nostalgic sort
Speaker 1: of memory about high school and like you're the friends
Speaker 1: you have growing up, because I don't know anyone's numbers,
Speaker 1: but I still know like my elementary school's best friends
Speaker 1: home number by heart and my brain where it's like
Speaker 1: you have that sort of weird intimacy with people that
Speaker 1: you're friends with and close with when you're young, that
Speaker 1: you kind of never get with people that you meet
Speaker 1: and are friends with when you're older, which is sort
Speaker 1: of something that Connell and uh Marianne come to again
Speaker 1: and again. So I found that detail, whether it was
Speaker 1: on purpose or not, like very evocative. But about the
Speaker 1: dropping of the break up with your boyfriend. He sucks.
Speaker 1: Please date anyone else. Also, I have a girlfriend. Friend,
Speaker 1: it's basically break up with your girlfriend because I'm bored
Speaker 1: by Ariana Grande. Yeah, Melissa, did you have a response
Speaker 1: to that scene? I mean, I think that was one
Speaker 1: of the worst scenes I thought for Connal to me
Speaker 1: of like, you know, he comes in in a sympathetic way.
Speaker 1: Of course he got mugged, like he's very vulnerable. But
Speaker 1: then I mean, Marianne just literally kicks everybody out and
Speaker 1: including her boyfriend. I mean, her boyfriend sucked. But that's
Speaker 1: beside the point to to tend to Connall and like
Speaker 1: have her full attemps, full attention, and then he just
Speaker 1: ships on the boyfriend. I mean again rightfully so, but
Speaker 1: then just burying the lead of like, by the way,
Speaker 1: I have a girlfriend, and like how hurtful that is?
Speaker 1: And it again is a moment like Deb's where he
Speaker 1: refuses to understand why it's so hurtful, you know, like
Speaker 1: he doesn't he waits and he knows that he shouldn't wait,
Speaker 1: and he just keeps repeating these same mistakes of like
Speaker 1: waiting to tell her different gold information and then refusing
Speaker 1: to take responsibility for the effect, even though he knows
Speaker 1: it to be. It's almost like the power had to
Speaker 1: shift because there was the imbalance of she had financial
Speaker 1: power over him, because you know, she needed her to
Speaker 1: pay for the cab and give her money and take
Speaker 1: care of him. That almost like an unconscious thing like
Speaker 1: like the uh you know how water when you pour
Speaker 1: it like reaches a level like their power dynamic had
Speaker 1: to go back to their level, which is Connall having
Speaker 1: power and I have a girlfriend, okay, back to neutral
Speaker 1: such another like again just him, I think, being emotionally manipulative,
Speaker 1: like he knows he has that power over her, like
Speaker 1: dominance of her emotions, like he knows that from the
Speaker 1: jump from the beginning. So like that scene of him
Speaker 1: telling Marianne about Helen, I think I was like, fuck you, Connall,
Speaker 1: you piece of ship like that like you to me,
Speaker 1: it just felt like he knowingly purposefully said it to
Speaker 1: hurt her, Like I don't know if he did honestly,
Speaker 1: don't credit I don't. I don't think he did it
Speaker 1: on purpose. I think that you're right that he's emotionally manipulative,
Speaker 1: but I think he's the worst kind of emotionally manipulative
Speaker 1: where he doesn't even know he's doing it half the time.
Speaker 1: He thinks he's a good guy. I don't think he
Speaker 1: did it on purpose. I think he's just like, she
Speaker 1: has a boyfriend. I should tell her this. He's like,
Speaker 1: he's the baby wants it all. He just wants um.
Speaker 1: I have the theory about Donald Okay, well my theory
Speaker 1: my secret ending for this book is I think he's
Speaker 1: going to go off to New York become an investment
Speaker 1: manker Mary the first model he needs, send any long
Speaker 1: rambling email to Marry Anne about it um and just
Speaker 1: leave her devastated in Ireland and feel like he has
Speaker 1: a ton of money now and a ton of power
Speaker 1: over people. And he's gonna buy like a vulgar sports
Speaker 1: car I do kind of thing in New York. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's a car in New Yard. It's not even going
Speaker 1: to drive it. He's just like, in case he wants
Speaker 1: to go up to the Hampton's for the weekend, in
Speaker 1: case you're like any cool parties that he was going
Speaker 1: to get an m f A in writing and then
Speaker 1: write the book about them. And then she reads the
Speaker 1: Great conn is Sally Rooney. Yes, oh no, it's I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily think that it's like a prequel version. It's
Speaker 1: the Carry Diaries version of the last five years. I
Speaker 1: love the Carry Diaries. I love it so much. And
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you mentioned that show. Not because I'm
Speaker 1: gonna elaborate any further, just because people need to remember
Speaker 1: that show. Lovely show, right he was such a sweet show.
Speaker 1: I never saw it, and now I just I'm tuning
Speaker 1: like so sweet. I'm a fake for right now, just
Speaker 1: like really great. It's very lovely and very enjoyable to watch.
Speaker 1: Much like this show, I really think that for now,
Speaker 1: I think we should just like take a second breathe,
Speaker 1: come back to it later. Yes, there's clearly more to say,
Speaker 1: so much to discuss. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club
Speaker 1: for my Heart Radio. We'll be right back after this
Speaker 1: quick break, all right, so let's get back into it.
Speaker 1: I actually wanted to talk about something I wrote it
Speaker 1: down about the no no no. It is about normal people,
Speaker 1: I promise, and it's about the show adaptation. And I
Speaker 1: am tragically American and so nudity on screen is always
Speaker 1: kind of a shock for me. And this show had
Speaker 1: not like an like an extravagant amount of nudity, but
Speaker 1: it had like full frontal male nudity in a way.
Speaker 1: It was very shocking to me. I was like, oh, right,
Speaker 1: sometimes men are naked, and it was really interesting to
Speaker 1: me to see this nudity because it felt like it
Speaker 1: was about vulnerability and not about sexuality, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: like this male gaze nudity. And I just wanted to
Speaker 1: know what you guys thought about that, for those of
Speaker 1: you who watched the show and got to the naky parts.
Speaker 1: At the risk of sounding like the creepiest pervert in
Speaker 1: the entire world, I did. I thought that the nudity
Speaker 1: was really well done and it didn't feel hyper sexualized.
Speaker 1: I thought when she was nude, um, it felt you know,
Speaker 1: very like vulnerable and I hope respectful. I mean, it
Speaker 1: can't speak to how it was filmed and how she
Speaker 1: feels like, I hope good. But I did like that
Speaker 1: it It always wasn't like, oh boom, sexy hot, so
Speaker 1: it was, well, she is notoriously flat chested, so I
Speaker 1: don't think it was ever going to be you know,
Speaker 1: what can be sexy hot Karama, Yeah, but I didn't
Speaker 1: mean it that way. Nearly a cups rule who felt
Speaker 1: like I disrespected that I just met. From a filmic
Speaker 1: point of view, I don't think that they were going
Speaker 1: to focus on the breast area as like I did.
Speaker 1: I did notice that the first time they showed her nudity,
Speaker 1: it was like it cut to a wide a two
Speaker 1: shot of the two of them and it was not
Speaker 1: a sexual not like they were about to have sex,
Speaker 1: but it was one of her awkward early lines where
Speaker 1: it's like, should we take all all our clothes off? Now?
Speaker 1: Like it was just very unsexual, and that's I feel
Speaker 1: like that was the presentation of it. It was like
Speaker 1: setting the tone of how that would all transpire. It
Speaker 1: was very now. It felt reminded me obviously very different
Speaker 1: but of hustlers like that, Um it was Whstlers? Is
Speaker 1: that the right the movie about? Yes? Um? I was like,
Speaker 1: oh no, is that the Anne Hathaway movie where she
Speaker 1: I think that movie is also called I Think the Hustle,
Speaker 1: And then of course it's American Hustle with Jennifer Lawrence
Speaker 1: all the hustling. But it was like it was intimate
Speaker 1: and sexy without it being from the male gaze. It
Speaker 1: felt very like romantic and open rather than like objectifying
Speaker 1: a woman. I think they also probably had to be
Speaker 1: conscious of the fact that even though these actors are
Speaker 1: in their twenties, these are portraying high school students, and
Speaker 1: so they don't want it to be like porny where
Speaker 1: it's like these barely legal teens. In my head reading
Speaker 1: the book, I was never thinking of them naked, which
Speaker 1: might be my own stuff, but I was like their children. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, but they're still There's still teenage shows and
Speaker 1: movies that don't show nudity that are way more objectifying
Speaker 1: of teenage girls Riverdale, like gossip Girl, they were like stripping,
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of that involve high school students,
Speaker 1: high school female students, like putting on stripped teases, which
Speaker 1: is not something we did in our high school that
Speaker 1: I was ever invited to. UM. It did throw me
Speaker 1: off a little that they are so beautiful in UM
Speaker 1: in the first scene, because I remember in the book
Speaker 1: they're like such wonderful, vivid details, like her underarms being
Speaker 1: all kind of white with deodoring because she smeared a
Speaker 1: lot of chalky deodorant on and um, yeah, sure, we
Speaker 1: we all have deodorant. It's not a secret, but yeah,
Speaker 1: those are details, so you know, obviously when you see
Speaker 1: it on the screen, there's not gonna be like a
Speaker 1: camera shot of like, oh, there's an awkward amount of
Speaker 1: deodorant showing. Now I did balk at her matching underwear set.
Speaker 1: There's not. They say that it's kind of like old
Speaker 1: not beautiful. Yeah, I will say, I the show is
Speaker 1: so beautiful, Like it looks so visually beautiful, and like
Speaker 1: the music is really like beautiful and pleasant. But it's
Speaker 1: so beautiful that at some points, I if I zone out.
Speaker 1: I am not sure whether or not Hulu has come
Speaker 1: back from commercial break, because all the commercials right now
Speaker 1: are like really beautiful and calm, and they're like to
Speaker 1: do do do, and these uncertain times, the vibe of
Speaker 1: the show of like these like soft close ups of
Speaker 1: beautiful young people running on the beach. If you put
Speaker 1: a voice over, it's like, in these uncertain times, connection
Speaker 1: is all we had, Like like the vibe of the
Speaker 1: show is very beautiful, pandemic commercial. Yeah, I also will
Speaker 1: say I've been watching it. My boyfriend and I share
Speaker 1: one bedroom apart ment, and so we have like headphones
Speaker 1: that we can connect to our TV. And he didn't
Speaker 1: watch the show, and it was just like, every time
Speaker 1: I look over, there's just like naked teens on the screen,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm so sorry. It's like, this is
Speaker 1: the show that is in fact what this show is
Speaker 1: sexy teen, sexy horn sexy horny team. You mentioned the music,
Speaker 1: and I will say I was a little disappointed that
Speaker 1: they didn't film the show as a period piece because
Speaker 1: it does specifically take place between the years of like
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven and two thousand and there was a
Speaker 1: mention in the book. They mentioned specific songs and albums
Speaker 1: and stuff in the book and they talked about Watch
Speaker 1: the Throne by jay Z, and I was like, that's
Speaker 1: what I wanted. I mean, I did love that there
Speaker 1: was a scene where they were making out to Carly
Speaker 1: Rae Jepson, because Carly is my girl. Carly, if you're listening,
Speaker 1: I worship you. You're not listening, but you need to
Speaker 1: know someone tell her. But um, I think that there's
Speaker 1: something really humbling about recent period pieces because it's just
Speaker 1: a reminder that like ten years ago, we all wanted
Speaker 1: to wear Von Dutch Trucker hats. You know, we were
Speaker 1: all so embarrassing. The most embarrassing thing about me is
Speaker 1: that in high school we all were like gaucho pants
Speaker 1: that ended at the widest part of your calve, and
Speaker 1: then ugg boots that ended just an inch below the
Speaker 1: gaucho pants. And then also a big thing that I
Speaker 1: was like begging my mom to do because I saw
Speaker 1: all the Disney Channel stars do it was We're like
Speaker 1: a skirt or dress on top of jeans, which is
Speaker 1: I mean, I did that, and I feel like I
Speaker 1: pulled it off. If you showed me a picture now
Speaker 1: I'd burn it, but I feel like it was look
Speaker 1: and that that for me. Also, I wanted that for
Speaker 1: the show and I wanted them to live in that time.
Speaker 1: There was that scene before Deb's the dance, the fundraiser dance,
Speaker 1: where she goes to because she was they say on
Speaker 1: the committee may be voted on as a joke, which
Speaker 1: is sort of sweet and sad um, where she really
Speaker 1: goes all out as they say, and they're playing very backwards,
Speaker 1: you know, very retro music by our standards, and she
Speaker 1: is sexually assaulted by one of the boys and Connell
Speaker 1: defend that's the closest that moment is the closest he
Speaker 1: comes to publicly, Yeah, showing than he's him for it, Yeah, mercilessly?
Speaker 1: Did you ride her last night? And he's like, I
Speaker 1: took her home? Yeah, He's like, I just said that
Speaker 1: you shouldn't grab a woman's boob in public, and just
Speaker 1: like I thought it was funny. Isn't Karen the only
Speaker 1: one that's like kind of nice to Marian in them? Ye?
Speaker 1: Shout out to Karen. But you know, bare minimum whenevery
Speaker 1: in high cool when everyone else is being a monster.
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of bravery to stand up. It
Speaker 1: takes bravery to stand up to your enemy is but
Speaker 1: it takes a great deal more to stand up to
Speaker 1: your friends. Invented off the top of my head for
Speaker 1: this podcast, such a great writer, but no standing. I
Speaker 1: think being a high schooler and saying like, hey man,
Speaker 1: that's not cool is like an act of bravery, even
Speaker 1: if it is the bare minimum. Yes, But I also
Speaker 1: feel like I feel like it's worth talking about the
Speaker 1: title of the book. And I know we have more
Speaker 1: plot to go over, but I also think that it's
Speaker 1: really important to talk about the title of the book.
Speaker 1: It's called normal People. Do we think that these people
Speaker 1: are normal? Or do we think that it's about their
Speaker 1: aspirations to be normal. What is normalcy? What is normal? Like?
Speaker 1: I found myself asking that a lot. I was like,
Speaker 1: is this called normal people? Because we're supposed to think
Speaker 1: that they are normal people? And I don't think that
Speaker 1: normal necessarily means right or good, but it does mean typical.
Speaker 1: I kept being back to that because Connal says pretty
Speaker 1: repeatedly like he feels abnormal and like he wants to
Speaker 1: feel normal, and not just like I'm objectively as a
Speaker 1: reader at arm's length, you're like conall you are. You
Speaker 1: are a handsome dude going to college, having a girl's
Speaker 1: dating someone with a nice mom. Like if anything, they
Speaker 1: seem unusually talented like UM. I I understand that they
Speaker 1: have problems in their lives. Everybody has problems in their lives.
Speaker 1: But they are too exceptionally bright um at least in
Speaker 1: the TV show, exceptionally hot young people who UM are
Speaker 1: clearly like good enough to be getting like scholarships in
Speaker 1: the arts at UM at a very prestigious college and
Speaker 1: living abroad for a time. They Okay, again, I know
Speaker 1: they have problems. I recognize that Connel is depressed. Marianne
Speaker 1: has a frighteningly abusive family. Other than that, like they
Speaker 1: seem abnormally blessed in a lot of regards. I think
Speaker 1: even the fact that they're dealing with that makes them
Speaker 1: even more abnormally blast. Yes, And I think that having
Speaker 1: a thing that you're dealing with is very normal. I mean,
Speaker 1: if someone was a Kendall who literally was perfect, that
Speaker 1: would be abnormal. I think that someone functioning in the
Speaker 1: world is a smart, competent, competent person with friends and
Speaker 1: dealing with you know, trauma or family hardship or depression,
Speaker 1: like that is a normal situation. But I think that's
Speaker 1: the point, Like it is that they both feel so abnormal,
Speaker 1: and we see as the readers, we all are relating
Speaker 1: to one or the other at certain points that they
Speaker 1: are there, that they are as normal as any one
Speaker 1: can be, and they are also exceptional in their own ways,
Speaker 1: as everyone is, you know. I feel like I like
Speaker 1: related to this striving to be normal in high school
Speaker 1: and college and what the normal was in the culture
Speaker 1: that I was living in, like buying the north Face
Speaker 1: jacket like you did, Dana in like in Chicago, in
Speaker 1: college like it, you know, and always feeling like I
Speaker 1: didn't fit in and how to be more normal. And
Speaker 1: I feel like growing up is embracing what is not
Speaker 1: normal about Melissa. I don't want to blow up your spot,
Speaker 1: but I do have to say, you've posted that picture
Speaker 1: of you in a sorority and you oh my god.
Speaker 1: I would just say, guys, you look very somal. I listen,
Speaker 1: it was a lot of work to look that normal.
Speaker 1: It was like everyone in at Northwestern, it was like
Speaker 1: everyone was in a It was like half the school
Speaker 1: was in a sorority. So I was too. And they're
Speaker 1: like all got spray tans, so I did that. They
Speaker 1: all had highlights, so I did that. They all had
Speaker 1: a north face, so I did that. You know, like
Speaker 1: it was just trying to fit in as desperately as possible. Um.
Speaker 1: Gil Nol Coward has a great quote from Private Lives
Speaker 1: that nobody is ever completely normal, really deep down in
Speaker 1: their private lives, and um, you know, I think that
Speaker 1: that fits in here, that um, everybody is normal and
Speaker 1: everybody does have their own issues, and there's no such
Speaker 1: thing as a completely normal person, even if they do
Speaker 1: look incredibly hot from the outside. I think that that
Speaker 1: is the self power of the title that uh, most
Speaker 1: of that you're touching on so eloquently, the idea that
Speaker 1: like the irony also for the characters and as a
Speaker 1: relationship between them and the readers, as the readers were
Speaker 1: all relating so profoundly and projecting our experiences onto them.
Speaker 1: The normalcy of these characters is evidenced by the fact
Speaker 1: that this book is so popular and being praised is
Speaker 1: so relatable. But obviously these characters don't know that they're
Speaker 1: in a very popular, widely related to book. That's their
Speaker 1: their tragedy. Yeah, and to build of what Jennifer, what
Speaker 1: you were saying too, it's that like, deep down normal
Speaker 1: is all of us having our own abnormal intimate emotional
Speaker 1: like up and downs all the time, which I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this reminds me of people I know, people like myself,
Speaker 1: like dear friends, family, Like we are all experiencing different
Speaker 1: levels of like depression and hardship in our own lives,
Speaker 1: whether like remarkable or not, you know. And the and
Speaker 1: even the most aberrant behavior that the character's view as
Speaker 1: the most abnormal, which is like they're like, uh slight
Speaker 1: you know, B D S M. I will say, as
Speaker 1: an adult feels very normal, like I normal experimentation with
Speaker 1: bondage and d s M is like a very normal
Speaker 1: thing that all most most of do, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's their jam or not, just a very normal thing.
Speaker 1: They're not doing anything that aberrant. I thought it was
Speaker 1: very peculiar that that became the thing that was Marianne's
Speaker 1: undoing socially. Yeah, again, maybe it's Ireland Maybie. Irish people
Speaker 1: don't misu teachers. I think they just love gossip, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And and their friend groups sucked,
Speaker 1: like she just had a bad group of friends besides Joanna,
Speaker 1: like Peggy and and Jamie was just a monster, you know.
Speaker 1: I think that's it that it was like they hate gossip.
Speaker 1: And to circle back to a thing that someone said earlier,
Speaker 1: this idea that like you need one friend you can
Speaker 1: tell you like your experience is valid and you're this
Speaker 1: is how a person should or should not be treating
Speaker 1: you like that is the most fundamentally important thing. Like
Speaker 1: I remember, like if ever you have a person like
Speaker 1: treat you badly or is rude to you, like the
Speaker 1: most validating thing in the world is another human being being,
Speaker 1: Like I noticed that it's not you, you know, like
Speaker 1: like someone and like if Conna's treating Marianne badly, if
Speaker 1: she had a friend who's like, hey, that is not
Speaker 1: how you should be treated, I am also viewing that,
Speaker 1: and your experience is valid. Like normalcy is something that
Speaker 1: exists as a social contract between people. We decide what's normal,
Speaker 1: and both characters so fundamentally need that person to be like,
Speaker 1: this is normal, that's okay. The feelings that you're having
Speaker 1: are fine, let's accept those things. Also, a therapist will
Speaker 1: serve that. One of the most um one of my
Speaker 1: favorite Marianne moments in the entire book is when her
Speaker 1: brother spits on her and her mother is like, oh, Marianne,
Speaker 1: if you can't handle a little sibling altercation, how will
Speaker 1: you exist in the real world. And Marianne says, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: when I'm at work, I don't think anybody's gonna spit
Speaker 1: on me. I think they probably get fired for that. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was like, oh my god, Yes, you realize that
Speaker 1: that's not normal. You figured it, Yeah, well it is
Speaker 1: to that point. It's like with therapy or a good friend,
Speaker 1: it's like they will say two things which are important
Speaker 1: that like certain things that you're feeling or doing, or
Speaker 1: the ways you behave are normal, but also that certain
Speaker 1: ways that people treat you are not normal, and you
Speaker 1: do not deserve to be treated like that. And you
Speaker 1: will have a boyfriend who will touch you in public
Speaker 1: and who will not like be ashamed of you, and
Speaker 1: will want to like be with you like and and
Speaker 1: we will abuse is not normal, and like that, all
Speaker 1: the things, the things you don't have to accept. I
Speaker 1: think as well, that's so important therapy, that's very I
Speaker 1: think this is a big advertisement for therapy therapy. I
Speaker 1: think in terms of plot, we talked a lot about,
Speaker 1: you know, Mariann's time in Sweden, Like, I think we
Speaker 1: did cover that, and I think a lot of what
Speaker 1: well we didn't cover what led up to that, which
Speaker 1: was her relationship with Jamie. Oh yes, I wonded. Well,
Speaker 1: I was saying I forgot the order, but I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about the scene of the house in Italy,
Speaker 1: in Italy, which I do think sums up her relationship
Speaker 1: with Jamie really well, Karama, do you want to set
Speaker 1: that scene? Oh yeah, I will set that scene. So
Speaker 1: this is after the scholarship, So Marianne gets a scholarship,
Speaker 1: she's studying. I guess what's the equivalent of political science
Speaker 1: and Connal is studying English. They both get scholarships in
Speaker 1: their respective programs. Conal then, after receiving his scholarship, goes
Speaker 1: on like a euro trip where he goes with his
Speaker 1: roommate Nil, who is a real one love Nile importive,
Speaker 1: He's a good friend. He is the Joanna of Conic.
Speaker 1: And he goes on this trip with Nile, and I
Speaker 1: think they have like another friend that gets erased in
Speaker 1: the show, Elaine I think her name is. And they
Speaker 1: end their trip in Italy and they go to this
Speaker 1: like tiny villa that mary Anne's family owns, and they
Speaker 1: spend some time with mary Anne, Peggy, Jamie and uh
Speaker 1: and then the three of them Elaine, Nile and Connal.
Speaker 1: So at this event they're all having dinner together. There
Speaker 1: is an issue, of course, with the fact that Connal
Speaker 1: is there because Jamie is extremely jealous of Connall. In
Speaker 1: mary Anne's words, he is the tall guy that used
Speaker 1: to suck his girlfriend. And it's it ends up in
Speaker 1: this altercation with Jamie and Maryanne where Jamie starts breaking
Speaker 1: glasses so similar to what her brother does to actually
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that's very emotional for her. And nobody
Speaker 1: but Connal does anything about it. I will say, it's
Speaker 1: not Nile's business to do anything about it. And Nile
Speaker 1: actually calls Jamie out for being super racist when they
Speaker 1: were talking about going to Venice, and he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's just Asian people taking pictures, and and he was like,
Speaker 1: God forbid you see an Asian person. Ni. Nile is
Speaker 1: the best. Yeah, Nile is great. And uh. Then after
Speaker 1: so after Conal goes runs after Marianne, she spends the
Speaker 1: night in his room, and she then confesses to him
Speaker 1: that she has this abusive relationship with her brother. She's
Speaker 1: already confessed to him in high school. I think it
Speaker 1: was that her dad would hit her mom. Her dad
Speaker 1: is deceased. I don't think we've ever mentioned that before,
Speaker 1: but she doesn't have a dad right now. And that's
Speaker 1: when Conal then decides it's a great idea to try
Speaker 1: and hook up with her again, even though he has
Speaker 1: a girlfriend. Her boyfriend's in the same house as them,
Speaker 1: and she is clearly traumatized by the situation with her
Speaker 1: boyfriend and how it reminds her of her brother. So
Speaker 1: that's and then she leaves and goes to Sweden and
Speaker 1: doesn't come back for like a year. It is almost
Speaker 1: the a again, like a bizarro flip on what happened.
Speaker 1: I think in high school after Deb's where she just
Speaker 1: retreated and didn't know respond his emails and dropped out
Speaker 1: of school. It's this idea that she has handled the
Speaker 1: situation and her response is to retreat. And oh and
Speaker 1: also in this section is the only time they ever
Speaker 1: really talk about their social class differences and their socioeconomic
Speaker 1: class differences. Uh. And She's like, you know, I am
Speaker 1: acutely aware of the fact that we met because your
Speaker 1: mom was my housekeeper. And I was like, are you
Speaker 1: because I feel like you've never made that clear to anyone. Um,
Speaker 1: which it's fine, but just don't lie. There's that point
Speaker 1: in the in the TV show I don't remember what
Speaker 1: the line exactly was in the book where uh Condall's
Speaker 1: girlfriend Helen is talking about the fact that he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: Marianne had a fucking villa in Italy. Of course that's Marianne.
Speaker 1: And I was like, that is very funny to me
Speaker 1: how someone else in this circumstance sees this situation, which
Speaker 1: is that your boyfriend's like very pretty ex girlfriend who
Speaker 1: he's obsessed with all the time in this weird relationship.
Speaker 1: He's just she's off on her summer Italian villa. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I felt really bad for Helen. Yeah, that's another reason
Speaker 1: why I didn't like Condle, Like he was treating another
Speaker 1: woman poorly and writing, I don't have email correspondences with
Speaker 1: anyone that's not my girlfriend, so like pact that he's
Speaker 1: writing these long email correspondences. It's like And the thing
Speaker 1: that bummed me out about that too, was that was
Speaker 1: that he it wasn't like he didn't like his girlfriend,
Speaker 1: like it was still would have been bad, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't like Helen, I don't know how to break up
Speaker 1: with her. It was more he was like he looked
Speaker 1: forward to the FaceTime or the Skype video with her
Speaker 1: because he thought I loved how pretty she was and
Speaker 1: how much heat she liked him. And it was this
Speaker 1: like ego thing of like how he got off on
Speaker 1: the feeling afterward of her looking at him with this
Speaker 1: doting affection and it was like just using her for
Speaker 1: this ego boost while while then still being in love
Speaker 1: with his ex girlfriend. I found it very telling that
Speaker 1: we never at any point learn how the two of
Speaker 1: them met. Yeah, yeah, it's like not important to this
Speaker 1: story because she's not important to him. And to jump
Speaker 1: to jump ahead a little bit in the story when uh,
Speaker 1: Connell has a high school friend who commits suicide and
Speaker 1: they returned back for the funeral um and how he
Speaker 1: asked Helen to come with him, which is a really
Speaker 1: intimate thing to do, like you know, to to bring
Speaker 1: your significant other to your hometown for an emotional funeral,
Speaker 1: and he spent the whole time not introducing Helen to anyone,
Speaker 1: which is a repeat of the sort of behavior he
Speaker 1: did with mary Anne, even though Helen is you know,
Speaker 1: beautiful and is not weird and there's no social stigma
Speaker 1: into dating Helen, and and also is staring at Maryanne
Speaker 1: the whole time. So I feel like there could have
Speaker 1: been an entire short story from Helen's perspective, your longtime
Speaker 1: boyfriend just being a maniac, and which is sort of
Speaker 1: like how when you go back have you noticed that
Speaker 1: when you go back to your hometown or like if
Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time with your parents and
Speaker 1: like your child at home, you like revert back to
Speaker 1: your teenage self. Yeah, Like I thought that scene was
Speaker 1: Connell becoming the worst version of himself. He was a
Speaker 1: repeat of how you know, the how he treated Marianne
Speaker 1: in high school. Yea, And that little fight they have
Speaker 1: to where Helen is like, You're kind of like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's being like wild to try to pick a fight
Speaker 1: at his friend's funeral, But in my mind, I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: he's being a total asshole. Yeah, I got it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm like, it was awful, but I mean it felt
Speaker 1: like a woman who just had had it and she
Speaker 1: didn't know how to keep it in anymore. That's what
Speaker 1: it felt like it was. I felt I felt so
Speaker 1: bad for her breaking. I was looking for that section
Speaker 1: after the funeral in my book, and which was difficult
Speaker 1: to find because there are no quotation marks. I just
Speaker 1: want to just remind you all that. But she says, well,
Speaker 1: if you didn't want me to come, you shouldn't have
Speaker 1: asked me. And then, instead of doing the normal thing
Speaker 1: of saying I'm sorry, I clearly didn't handle this well,
Speaker 1: which may be a good friend or a therapist might
Speaker 1: encourage you to, he says, Okay, I'm sorry I asked you.
Speaker 1: That brutal just blew my mind with my justice for Helen.
Speaker 1: He does not know how to apologize. No, he doesn't
Speaker 1: know how to do very many things. I just I
Speaker 1: don't understand. Like I think we were when we were
Speaker 1: talking about Marxism and how it relates to the book.
Speaker 1: I think it was Tienne who mentioned something about emotional
Speaker 1: intelligence and I was like, who has it? Which one
Speaker 1: of them brings that to the table? No one, Joanna
Speaker 1: is the only one, and Lorraine, let's talk about it.
Speaker 1: Ran for emotional intelligence, we should have Nila and Joanne
Speaker 1: get together. Joanna's definitely stig Helen. Nila and Nil and Helen.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think Nila and Joanna would be great
Speaker 1: friends and go on adventures together. I would leave the
Speaker 1: hell out of that bar Um. Wait, one more incredibly
Speaker 1: disturbing scene that we have not touched on at all,
Speaker 1: and I'm almost very sorry to bring this up. We
Speaker 1: have been talking so long, but we have not talked
Speaker 1: about this the teacher, and that feels like a really
Speaker 1: important moment to me because it's a moment where she, Marianne,
Speaker 1: really stands up for him and so said, if that
Speaker 1: teacher does that to him again, she will kill her.
Speaker 1: So who want who wants to be the one who
Speaker 1: describes the scene, I'll do it volunteer is But I
Speaker 1: do want to say that I felt like the way
Speaker 1: it was handled in the book did more for their
Speaker 1: relationship than the way it was handled on the show. Um.
Speaker 1: But the way that it was handled in the book,
Speaker 1: because this is the podcast where we talked smart about books,
Speaker 1: is that there is this teacher. I think she was
Speaker 1: an economics teacher. I cannot remember her name. I don't
Speaker 1: want to say her name even if I do remember it,
Speaker 1: because she is the worst. Uh So, early on in
Speaker 1: the book, it's established that she like giggles with Connell
Speaker 1: a lot, and he's very uncomfortable with it, and everybody
Speaker 1: thinks that he has a crush on They make fun
Speaker 1: of him. Yeah, they make fun of him for the
Speaker 1: fact that he has a crush on her, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I literally don't and Marianne's like, maybe it's because you
Speaker 1: blush when she talks to you, but you just kind
Speaker 1: of have that face and uh So. Then later on,
Speaker 1: when Connal is back home, he's on an off again
Speaker 1: situation with Marianne. At this point, I think she might
Speaker 1: be in Sweden. Um. Yeah, he goes out, it's Chris,
Speaker 1: it is Christmas. Yeah, she does. She specifically doesn't come
Speaker 1: home for Christmas, and he's like, well, I I don't
Speaker 1: think I've ever gone a year in my life without
Speaker 1: seeing you. I think that might have been added in
Speaker 1: the show, but I think that it is important to
Speaker 1: speak to their relationship where even when they weren't close,
Speaker 1: even before they started sleeping together, she was a presence
Speaker 1: in his life and now she's not, so he's kind
Speaker 1: of unmoored and sad, and he goes out to the
Speaker 1: pub and he runs into this economics teacher that he
Speaker 1: had in high school, and they dance and they drink,
Speaker 1: and then she goes. She takes him back to her place,
Speaker 1: and uh. He is very drunk and does not want
Speaker 1: to engage in any sort of activity and kind of
Speaker 1: tries to brush it off and does not say no,
Speaker 1: I don't want this, please go away explicitly, but is
Speaker 1: very very clear in his actions, I'm not interested in this,
Speaker 1: which should be enough. Gives every sing and also talks
Speaker 1: about how drunk he is. Does men he is the
Speaker 1: adult in this situation. I don't care that he's ship
Speaker 1: is such that she's the adult and she should be like, oh, right, Jimmy.
Speaker 1: She never should have done anything in the first place,
Speaker 1: and it was clear that she was just waiting to pounce.
Speaker 1: She's garbage, she's a predator. But then she she starts
Speaker 1: to touch him in his nether regions and he then
Speaker 1: I don't remember if he leaves or if he vomits,
Speaker 1: or if he says he's going to vomit and then leaves,
Speaker 1: but there says he's going to vomit, he says he's
Speaker 1: going to be sick, and then he leaves and he
Speaker 1: has no idea how he gets home. So he's clearly
Speaker 1: like exceedingly intoxicated, and he feels gross about the situation,
Speaker 1: and which just taken advantage of, as you say, to
Speaker 1: be clear that teacher is a predator. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that there is. I'm really glad that she wasn't
Speaker 1: an English teacher because I feel like the trope is
Speaker 1: usually the English teacher is the one that's the predator,
Speaker 1: like pretty little liars Ezra is like with Aria, but
Speaker 1: also with that's what you're saying, Yeah, no, predator. English
Speaker 1: teachers are a thing in media which I think needs
Speaker 1: to star. I think it's because because it's easy to
Speaker 1: write if you're like, let's talk about Romeo and Juliet,
Speaker 1: and like they get closer and closer, and and they're
Speaker 1: going to quote different sonnet as they like smell your hair.
Speaker 1: I feel like trigonometry is real sexy. I had a
Speaker 1: crush on my priulist teacher in high school, and it's
Speaker 1: because it's a good challenge. And it's because I feel
Speaker 1: like teaching English, as opposed to, like Matt teaching math,
Speaker 1: is very like prescriptive, Like there are certain stuff where
Speaker 1: it's like it is easy to both write and portray.
Speaker 1: As most was saying, like you can come at a
Speaker 1: text from a way that feels like fresh an intimate.
Speaker 1: You know, you know, it wasn't Shakespeare the first rapper,
Speaker 1: I was going to say, but it's like that that's
Speaker 1: so yeah, so you know. Um, one of the things
Speaker 1: that was so interesting to me is that they established
Speaker 1: really early on the first of all, this is not
Speaker 1: every man's fantasy. I think a lot of the time
Speaker 1: of when we hear stories about girls having sex with
Speaker 1: their high school teachers, it's rightly painted us a predatory relationship.
Speaker 1: Um that yeah, that is that is bad. And everybody
Speaker 1: seems pretty much on the same page about that. But
Speaker 1: when we hear about like a fifteen year old boy
Speaker 1: having sex with his English teachers, everybody's like, Oh, he's
Speaker 1: pretty lucky. Huh wish that had been my teacher, and um,
Speaker 1: and that's weird and it's uncomfortable and we shouldn't keep
Speaker 1: doing that. And I think that's why it's so important
Speaker 1: that at the beginning, it's not like, oh, yeah, Connal
Speaker 1: has this mutual crush on his team tour and they'd
Speaker 1: love to funck but they can't because he's under Now
Speaker 1: it gets to happen, and that is so clearly what's
Speaker 1: not happening there. It's so clear that this is absolutely
Speaker 1: predatory on her part um. It is not like another
Speaker 1: girl his own age who is also drunk and really
Speaker 1: wants to talk up with this hot guy. It is
Speaker 1: an adult preying upon someone who is a child as
Speaker 1: far as they are concerned. Yeah, okay, I think this
Speaker 1: is a good emotional stopping point. We need to take
Speaker 1: a step away from it for a moment and then
Speaker 1: come back. I feel overwhelmed by the two of Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, thanks guys, I'm going to take a quick
Speaker 1: break and we'll be back with more Popcorn book Club
Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio. Okay, we're back with Popcorn book Club.
Speaker 1: I feel like now we are stre of circling the
Speaker 1: ending of the book. I think between it's raw, is
Speaker 1: it Rob's suicide? Yeah, Rob, Rob's suicide? Um, and then
Speaker 1: the final sort of and I'm like gesturing with my
Speaker 1: hands the way that Marianne and connall come together again
Speaker 1: only to come apart with what I think marian hopes
Speaker 1: is a newfound understanding and uh of themselves and each other.
Speaker 1: Whether that works successfully for you or not, Melissa, do
Speaker 1: you want to describe sort of the plot thrust from
Speaker 1: Rob's funeral to the ending? Sure? Yeah, so we've covered
Speaker 1: Rob's funeral, He and Helen. He doesn't treat Helen well. Uh.
Speaker 1: He sees Marianne for the first time in a long time.
Speaker 1: She's looking incredibly thin, um and frail, and uh they
Speaker 1: she Connad breaks up with Helen, and Donald goes through
Speaker 1: a very deep depression. That's kind of the next phase
Speaker 1: of it where he a very very serious depression where
Speaker 1: he's having suicidal thoughts and he can't he can't like
Speaker 1: bring himself from the floor to the bed. Like it's
Speaker 1: a really dark depression, and he goes and for Nile
Speaker 1: pushes him because now's a bud uh to go seek counseling,
Speaker 1: and finally yes, and so he goes, and he gets
Speaker 1: on medication in spite of himself, like he doesn't want
Speaker 1: to reveal things to his therapist how bad it really is. Um.
Speaker 1: And then Marianne drops out of school again for a
Speaker 1: little while, goes home. I'm kind of the ending kind
Speaker 1: of all blends together because it's less like incidents, there's
Speaker 1: less there's there's no some piece is this it were
Speaker 1: My understanding wasn't that she dropped out of school again.
Speaker 1: It was that it was summertime. But the I can't
Speaker 1: remember because it gives a date at the beginning of
Speaker 1: every chapter, but it then goes it's like a period.
Speaker 1: It's like the beginning date of a period of time,
Speaker 1: and they'll move forward and move back. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's why it made it seem like she wasn't
Speaker 1: sure if she was going to return to school, like
Speaker 1: she was in a bad place as well. Um. And
Speaker 1: then it does it jump to the New Year's and Christmas?
Speaker 1: Is that the next period where he goes where she
Speaker 1: goes home with him at least that's the big event
Speaker 1: that I think we should focus on. When she does
Speaker 1: go home with which yes, which was like the final
Speaker 1: sort of moment where they're together in the book, and
Speaker 1: she reluctantly goes home because Lorraine, again one of the
Speaker 1: best characters in the book, says you must come home
Speaker 1: with me, or to come be with our family, and
Speaker 1: so she does, and it's very warm and cozy, and
Speaker 1: it's like this real glimmer of happiness of like what
Speaker 1: their relationship could be if Conald just gave into it
Speaker 1: um And but in this moment he does like they had.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, Conall has a girlfriend, and all the
Speaker 1: little cousins see her. And then they go to New
Speaker 1: Year's and all the old characters are there, even shitty
Speaker 1: Rachel and sweetish Karen, and they and it New Year's.
Speaker 1: They kiss, they kiss on the mouth. Conall kisses her
Speaker 1: and people are watching, which they should just do. It's
Speaker 1: New Year's everyone kisses something at someone at midnight. And
Speaker 1: then he says I love you to her in public um,
Speaker 1: And that's the last you'll get of them being sweet
Speaker 1: to each other and being together. You're like, you're so close,
Speaker 1: you're so close, it's like they reached it and they
Speaker 1: don't them up. Yeah, and he says, I love you
Speaker 1: like one other time. I'm when they're driving back from
Speaker 1: our protest, and it kind of cuts back and forth
Speaker 1: between those pieces, and then the final chapters are like
Speaker 1: they're kind of to get there in that kind of
Speaker 1: weird in between at the end of school and Connal
Speaker 1: gets into this m f A program in New York
Speaker 1: that he did not tell Marian about. Of course, God
Speaker 1: forbid to the most intimate relationship, but his whole thing
Speaker 1: is worried and he doesn't use them. It felt very
Speaker 1: Jim and Pam to me, I don't like. It felt
Speaker 1: very like Jim get like secreative gestures of starting athletic
Speaker 1: marketing company. Yeah yeah. He bought a house without telling
Speaker 1: her he invested a company. Yeah yeah. And she was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this house. They love it. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: bitch his parents house also, which is a whole thing
Speaker 1: that we need to pack. Yeah, Jim is a child,
Speaker 1: said And there's this girl, Sadie who's she's been Oh
Speaker 1: he's now the editor of the paper, and Sadie has
Speaker 1: a big crush on Connall and she doesn't he doesn't
Speaker 1: really like her in that way. Blah blah blah. But
Speaker 1: he did tell her that he was applying to this
Speaker 1: m f A program she convinced him to and then uh,
Speaker 1: Marianne decides to tell him to go to New York.
Speaker 1: And then he also doesn't offer to kill her brother. Um,
Speaker 1: the only I like, Oh god, I forgot about the
Speaker 1: horrible sex and then the the abusive worst chap. I
Speaker 1: think I like block those two scenes had because they're
Speaker 1: so awful. Jen do it. So this is pretty bad guys. Um.
Speaker 1: So they're having sex and Marianne asked Connall to hit
Speaker 1: her and he says, no, that would be weird. Um
Speaker 1: because because it would be weird. Um. And mary Anne says,
Speaker 1: you think I'm weird and that was the way she
Speaker 1: was referred to in school. Like. She's back to being
Speaker 1: in her hometown again, um, surrounded maybe by people including Connall,
Speaker 1: who thinks she's a weird girl. So she leaves. It's
Speaker 1: a bad situation. She goes home. Her brother doesn't want
Speaker 1: her associating with Connall because Connall is on antidepressant UM,
Speaker 1: which is I would not be able to associate with
Speaker 1: anybody in New York if that was a rule we
Speaker 1: were going by. Um. But um, yeah, they get into
Speaker 1: a fight. Um. Her brother keeps saying that he's not
Speaker 1: going to hit her, but he throws a beer bottle
Speaker 1: at her. She runs upstairs. In the process of this, Um,
Speaker 1: she gets her nose broken. Um. I think it's because
Speaker 1: she's trying to close the door so he won't get
Speaker 1: into her room and she swams it in on her. Um.
Speaker 1: So her nose gets broken. So she calls Connal and
Speaker 1: she appollo gizes profusely and says, you know, it's just
Speaker 1: it's not really his fault, but my brother. My nose
Speaker 1: is broken. And Connal goes over to the house and
Speaker 1: tells her horrible abuse of brother, who is nothing if
Speaker 1: not consistently abusive, that if he does that to Marianne again,
Speaker 1: he will kill him. And um, he does not punch
Speaker 1: him in the face, which made me sad because, um,
Speaker 1: because I would have liked that. So apparently I do
Speaker 1: not believe that violence is never the answer. I believe
Speaker 1: in this specific case it would have been cool. Sometimes
Speaker 1: bad people getting punched in the face is incredibly sad.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's yeah, yeah, yeah, violence is never the answer.
Speaker 1: If you ignore all of human history, um, all start crying.
Speaker 1: Though Alan wept, he didn't even that was very sad.
Speaker 1: I thought that the relationship, the power relationship between Alan
Speaker 1: and Connal was fascinating because early on, when she's having
Speaker 1: the secret relationship with con Alan sees Conna less so
Speaker 1: much cooler than her. He wants to suck up to that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think Ellen represents everything the worst of
Speaker 1: everything in this book, which is like the status aware, uh, desperate, clawing, abusive,
Speaker 1: manipulated like he rubbed. He is the the black hole
Speaker 1: of this book's worst themes. Yes, yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: really interesting also in this time period that um, when
Speaker 1: Marianne goes home and stays with Connel for Christmas, they
Speaker 1: do run into her mother, and this is after the
Speaker 1: whole nosebreaking situation. And I will say in the show,
Speaker 1: I felt like her mother was less actively involved in
Speaker 1: the abuse and more of a passive just non participant
Speaker 1: and she didn't really do anything to it, which arguably
Speaker 1: is its own form of abuse. But I think the
Speaker 1: a lot of the statements about like oh, if you
Speaker 1: can't handle it, then don't know what you're going to do.
Speaker 1: In the real world. We're in the book and not
Speaker 1: in the show, but they run into her mom and
Speaker 1: Marianne sort of first has the realization that maybe her
Speaker 1: mom is not a normal person and that maybe people
Speaker 1: don't see her mom in the same way that she does.
Speaker 1: And she asks and she's like, how do people in
Speaker 1: town see her? And Lorraine is like, I could say
Speaker 1: she's a bit odd. And I think that's a real
Speaker 1: turning point for Marianne as well, because she has made
Speaker 1: these people her whole world and she just wants to
Speaker 1: fit in with them and not realizing that maybe they
Speaker 1: don't fit in with other people. Do you think that's
Speaker 1: a moment too, where like because we learned that Marianne's
Speaker 1: father was abusive to Denise, that it's like a kind
Speaker 1: of a switch in Mary not meeting, not a switch,
Speaker 1: but like a moment where Marian's like, okay, like, although
Speaker 1: my mom has lent abuse to happen, like to from
Speaker 1: my brother's to me, like that she's seeing that her
Speaker 1: mother is maybe also like a damaged person that is
Speaker 1: experienced and seeing like her own trauma that she needs
Speaker 1: to go see a therapist about as well. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that I will recommend therapy for almost every To
Speaker 1: me that scene, I think Niles, oh yeah, Nile, Joanna
Speaker 1: probably therapy, but not in this everyone therapy. Basically, some
Speaker 1: of these people need to be in weekly therapy. I
Speaker 1: think that scene of that realization with the mom reminded
Speaker 1: me of an echo of the scene at Deb's where
Speaker 1: Connor came to the realization like that if he had
Speaker 1: just been open about being with Marianne like things would
Speaker 1: have been okay. It's this, um, this this scene where
Speaker 1: like the idea of normalcy and like checking in with
Speaker 1: society is a very grounding force in like, oh, the
Speaker 1: narratives that you make in isolation aren't necessarily true or valid,
Speaker 1: and that checking in with other people and and he
Speaker 1: is a helpful and important tools sometimes into feeling like
Speaker 1: a normal person yourself. Um. And I think that that
Speaker 1: was a lesson that both characters needed deeply. Well. You
Speaker 1: also have to check in with people who care about
Speaker 1: your well being and who love you. Think marian consistently
Speaker 1: tries to check in with people who are not good
Speaker 1: friends to her or good romantic partners and to gain
Speaker 1: validation from them, and that is that that is done.
Speaker 1: Don't like check in with Twitter and be like, hey,
Speaker 1: Twitter point out my flaws. Yes, that's not going to
Speaker 1: be healthy for you. Yes, checking in with someone loving
Speaker 1: and yeah, someone loving who cares about you being happy
Speaker 1: and having a good life. How do we feel about
Speaker 1: the ending of the book? Oh? I was very upset.
Speaker 1: It's super upset about well, like very ending. Like I
Speaker 1: finished the book and I was like, well, what the fuck?
Speaker 1: I think that one of the things. So she says
Speaker 1: that Connal should go to New York. But what we
Speaker 1: haven't talked about is the exact way she says it.
Speaker 1: She said, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna pull
Speaker 1: out my trusty book for this one because I want
Speaker 1: to want you all to hear it verbatim. Um. She says,
Speaker 1: you should go, I'll always be here, you know that.
Speaker 1: Definitely going to marry a model in New York. Don't
Speaker 1: always be there. Oh, Marianne, did you learn nothing? I
Speaker 1: didn't like that the book sort of presented it. It
Speaker 1: was romantic, which I thought that, yeah, not a romance
Speaker 1: to to no no people, bad romance. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm the stop demanding nothing out of this relationship, Maryanne.
Speaker 1: It's not healthy, it's not helpful. I could have found
Speaker 1: a million other men who would beat up your abusive
Speaker 1: brother just really just like a million on any other
Speaker 1: given day, and it's the only great thing he does
Speaker 1: for To me, what the ending imply I was that
Speaker 1: this dynamic will continue for ages two to ten years,
Speaker 1: like that they will be the one they returned to
Speaker 1: in between relationships, and they're going to continue to suffer
Speaker 1: through this, particularly marry. I really feel like Marianne is
Speaker 1: going to get the short end off they stick here,
Speaker 1: that one day Colin will come home and he will
Speaker 1: just be married and mary Anne still will have been
Speaker 1: waiting and demanding the end when yeah, oh, we'll still
Speaker 1: on his work with Mary Anne, Yes you are the
Speaker 1: One day Mary that Conna will be dating, slash engaged
Speaker 1: to slash marry someone else in New York and still
Speaker 1: writing emotional intimate emails to Mary Anne, and she will
Speaker 1: be fundamentally unhappy waiting for him to love her in
Speaker 1: a version of events that will never happen. She will
Speaker 1: waste her entire life on this man who is at
Speaker 1: least emotionally unavailable to her, if not emotionally unavailable to everyone.
Speaker 1: Should we we be friends with Marianne? I feel like
Speaker 1: we've fallen at the five talk to her. I think
Speaker 1: she just needs to listen to Joanna more like she
Speaker 1: doesn't even Nina. She has Joanna and it's just like
Speaker 1: get it together. Um, heartbreaking. But look, I think we
Speaker 1: also know women like that in real life, at least
Speaker 1: I do, who have like been carrying a torch for
Speaker 1: a man for like a decade and he'll always show
Speaker 1: up just enough to give them just enough hope to
Speaker 1: hang in there and think that maybe like when he
Speaker 1: gets when he finally breaks up with his girlfriend, it's
Speaker 1: not a good time right now, but like when that happens,
Speaker 1: then we'll probably be together and we'll be happy and
Speaker 1: it'll be like oh, white pick fence kind of fantasy
Speaker 1: and it will be great. No, if people want to
Speaker 1: be with you, they'll be with you. It's like it's
Speaker 1: like in Crazy Extra Friend. It's like the Love Colonels. Yes,
Speaker 1: I thought that earlier when you were talking about storing
Speaker 1: away love and child and like squirreling it away for
Speaker 1: the winter. Yeah. No, definitely Love Colonel's for sure. So
Speaker 1: does the Here's my question though, does the book realize
Speaker 1: that it's a tragic ending? No? Yes, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people read it and don't realize it's a
Speaker 1: tragic ending, and that in itself it's very upsetting to me.
Speaker 1: And I want to send out a million tweets saying,
Speaker 1: you realize that this is not a romance. This is
Speaker 1: a tragedy, right. I think a lot of people read
Speaker 1: it as a as a as a hopeful ending in
Speaker 1: a way that makes or like a bitter sweet ending,
Speaker 1: which I don't think it is at all. It's no,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's bitter sweet. I think it's it
Speaker 1: is tragic and it feels like, you know, that was
Speaker 1: the choice she made, and there I wanted a Catharsis,
Speaker 1: Like I wanted Marianne to say something like you'll never
Speaker 1: really love me, will you? And he says no, and
Speaker 1: then she says goodbye and that's the end, just for
Speaker 1: them to like say to each other the things that
Speaker 1: the true is behind the reason why it doesn't work.
Speaker 1: But I know that's not what the book wasn't intending
Speaker 1: to do, but that's what I wanted in my head.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pretend that happened, Melissa. You just wrote my my,
Speaker 1: my head, Cannon, and I know in my heart of hearts.
Speaker 1: I was like, I really I want her to. I
Speaker 1: know it's not the intention of the book, but I
Speaker 1: want Marianne to find self worth and that is enough
Speaker 1: for her, and that it doesn't need to come from
Speaker 1: Connal who is just dangling it in front of her
Speaker 1: and taking it away and putting it back whenever he
Speaker 1: wants to. And here's the thing about Conna is I
Speaker 1: don't think he's doing it selfishly or maliciously. I think
Speaker 1: he's doing it obliviously, which which it doesn't matter. It's
Speaker 1: a thing like the end results for mary and is
Speaker 1: going to be the same. The happy ending would have
Speaker 1: been mary Anne going to me, yes, Marianne applying to
Speaker 1: an m f A program and getting in and not
Speaker 1: telling Conall and her and being like goodbye. That would
Speaker 1: have been happy ending. That would have been nice. I
Speaker 1: feel so complicated about the the obliviousness of it, though,
Speaker 1: because I feel like that is such an excuse that
Speaker 1: we give men. But I think we get it's not
Speaker 1: an excuse, Like we get his perspective, you know, we
Speaker 1: get his his side of the book. I think in
Speaker 1: Conal's mind, he is a he knows he's doing something
Speaker 1: a little off, but he's not doing it on purposed
Speaker 1: hurt Marianne. I think he's just weak and like he
Speaker 1: has failings, which sucks. And then Marianne also has failings,
Speaker 1: which sucks, and I think, whether it's malicious or oblivious,
Speaker 1: it's not healthy for her and she needs to get out.
Speaker 1: I think, okay, but they've also I okay, I have
Speaker 1: had relationships that I did not think of as being
Speaker 1: terribly serious, where like suddenly, out of the blue, I
Speaker 1: got like a three page email from a man being like,
Speaker 1: you are not emotionally risk apt of why are you
Speaker 1: so closed off? Why won't you hang out with me
Speaker 1: when we're out with your friends? And um the the
Speaker 1: honest answers like, I don't know. We went out for
Speaker 1: like two months. I wasn't paying that much attention. I
Speaker 1: guess I wasn't that into you. I'm sorry, um but
Speaker 1: um well, those are short relationships. This relationship has been
Speaker 1: going on for five years. At some point, you can't
Speaker 1: just be oblivious. Yeah he's not. He's not treating her
Speaker 1: with respect. Yes, fair, I feel like and none of
Speaker 1: you are going to believe that this just occurred to me.
Speaker 1: You're all gonna think I've been planning this since the beginning.
Speaker 1: But I feel like the relationship to me is a
Speaker 1: lot like Logan and Veronica relationship Veronica Mars, where it's
Speaker 1: tumultuous in ways that it doesn't need to be. And
Speaker 1: I think that just based on who they are fundamentally
Speaker 1: as people, it's never not going to be that way
Speaker 1: unless they start to really examine who they are as
Speaker 1: people and how that affects their relationships. And I think
Speaker 1: that at his core, Conal does want to love Marianne.
Speaker 1: But I think that you're right, Like I think it
Speaker 1: was Melissa who said like, I'm never gonna love you
Speaker 1: and walk away like he's never going to be able
Speaker 1: to fully love her. Yeah, no, never, And I think
Speaker 1: that is true to a lot of these kinds of
Speaker 1: relationships that either I've experienced or witnessed my friends being
Speaker 1: is that like a dynamic is set up in the
Speaker 1: beginning and it just continues to repeat itself. And I
Speaker 1: think that's true of most relationships I've ever been in.
Speaker 1: And if you set up a relationship like they did
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the book, it just keeps. It
Speaker 1: felt felt like it was in chapters, but the emotional
Speaker 1: arc of it was on a loop, um because it's
Speaker 1: so hard to break that and the truth is, it
Speaker 1: just doesn't get like I've never heard a story where
Speaker 1: this Connell Maryan dynamic. They get married, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: or stay married more importantly, or stayed I'm that incredibly
Speaker 1: depressing note. Thank you so much to Jenner for right
Speaker 1: karamadon Quatian Tran and Melissa Hunter Um, and thank you
Speaker 1: for for listening. If you've joined us on this book club,
Speaker 1: we'll be back with another book. That's our show for
Speaker 1: the week. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Danish
Speaker 1: Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter at Danish
Speaker 1: Schwartz with three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at
Speaker 1: Jen Ashley Right, Karama down qua Is at Karama Drama,
Speaker 1: Melissa hunter Is at Melissa f t W and Tian
Speaker 1: Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but
Speaker 1: she is on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive producer
Speaker 1: is Christopher Hassiotis, and we're produced and edited by Mike Jones.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to David Wasserman and to Sally Rooney for
Speaker 1: these beautiful people and all of their problems. Speaking of problems,
Speaker 1: next week we dive into I Know This Much as
Speaker 1: True by Wally Lamb, now in HBO series starring Mark
Speaker 1: Ruffalo and also Mark Ruffalo as a pair of identical twins,
Speaker 1: the Ruffali. Before we go into the rest of the book,
Speaker 1: can we just I'll say our favorite Ruffalo's. My Ruffalo
Speaker 1: of preference is from Eternal Sunshine of the Spot the Glasses. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a solid Ruffalo. Popcorn Book Club is a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio.