Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here podcast. I'm Robert Evans,
Speaker 1: So is that it? I'm fortunately, I'm so sorry. All right,
Speaker 1: well I just apologize really quick. If that's a lot
Speaker 1: to take in. No, that was a good introduction. That
Speaker 1: was a good introduction. We got across the gist. Who
Speaker 1: else is here with you? Robert? That's a great question.
Speaker 1: Is Garrison here? Yeah? I don't think they're here? Is
Speaker 1: Chris here? Is st Andrew here? I am indeed excellent? Um,
Speaker 1: why don't you take over and do and do my
Speaker 1: job for me? That sounds cool, actually good idea, fantastic,
Speaker 1: It was often and everybody I m saying, I'm true.
Speaker 1: Back to guest wist yet again. Um, last time we
Speaker 1: spoke about you know, soft climate change, Nile and continue
Speaker 1: the theme of me talking about whatever I want to
Speaker 1: talk about as per contractual obbligation. UM. Today, I wanted
Speaker 1: to explode a concept that I brought up one of
Speaker 1: my recent videos, UM, self and community actualization. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: so first we needs get in some context of course. UM.
Speaker 1: I mean when most people hear self actualization, they probably
Speaker 1: think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, the famous permit
Speaker 1: that management Uh, staff tend to use up in their
Speaker 1: offices and such Los Angeles yoga ladies. Uh. The context
Speaker 1: in which I've heard self actualization the most. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: that whole group kind of you know yeah, um, but yeah,
Speaker 1: so self actualization. Master's hierarchy of needs, the old psych
Speaker 1: one on one stuff, you know. I mean, it's traditionally
Speaker 1: represented as a pyramid, but it was never how Maslow
Speaker 1: himself actually depicted it. Um. It was actually something that
Speaker 1: later in two preters of his work ran with and popularized. Um.
Speaker 1: And so that as a result of that pyramid, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of you know, critiques of Master's theory
Speaker 1: that don't quite engage with his theory, would rather engage
Speaker 1: with like interpretations of his theory by other people. But um,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's still an interesting way to
Speaker 1: depict human needs, and I think it's a good launching
Speaker 1: point to start thinking about and start discussing, you know,
Speaker 1: human needs. Um, what you'll think you'll are on the
Speaker 1: pyramid right now, just for posterity's sake, Oh right up
Speaker 1: on the tippy top. I'm like I've been, I've been.
Speaker 1: I've been very lucky to do exactly like what I
Speaker 1: want to do for a living most of my life
Speaker 1: and and now I own goats, so it doesn't get
Speaker 1: anything that including one absolute unit. He's fucking massive. He's
Speaker 1: a chunky buddy. What about Karen? Yes, I really don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't spend too much time thinking about
Speaker 1: models like this, especially around kind of my own my
Speaker 1: own goals, um and like where I see myself. Um,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I mean, I'm i'm I'm doing
Speaker 1: like him. I'm I'm relatively stable with my like actual
Speaker 1: physical needs. UM. So I guess, yeah, I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what I actually want out of life,
Speaker 1: like a lot of younger people do. I guess, right, right,
Speaker 1: So I guess that's more on the um esteem, yes,
Speaker 1: my stuff chization side of things. Yeah, And it's harder
Speaker 1: because you can say, like, well, within the context of
Speaker 1: like what is possible, I'm I'm I'm aware I want
Speaker 1: to be and I'm doing stuff that I want to
Speaker 1: be doing. But also everything feels like a disaster around
Speaker 1: me all the time because the time simon, which makes
Speaker 1: it difficult to be is right. I was about to say,
Speaker 1: is anybody really on the safety needs category of of
Speaker 1: the pyramid. I mean some people like absolutely, yeah, but
Speaker 1: this group, I mean yeah, like we we we are
Speaker 1: there's like a weird there's like a weird disassociation between
Speaker 1: what's actually going on and what we know could be
Speaker 1: going around on in like the larger sphere. That's fair. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's a very good way of thinking about it.
Speaker 1: Is like, yeah, my immediate needs are met. Am. I
Speaker 1: very concerned that large chunks of the places I love
Speaker 1: will be unlivable and you know, there will be that
Speaker 1: we're kind of staring in the face of a variety
Speaker 1: of calamities that that could uh make everything worse for
Speaker 1: me and everybody I care about. Absolutely, but I can't
Speaker 1: do anything about that, right. The other thing I was
Speaker 1: going to point out is that with like with like
Speaker 1: the physio needs, is that includes sleep. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: who you're talking about, being the sun shining down on
Speaker 1: the pyramid and it gets up there, you know, the sleep.
Speaker 1: The sleep scientists have had their pockets in big bed
Speaker 1: for far too long, the cozy industrial complex problem. It's fine.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say something else that that I
Speaker 1: was going to say that, um, you know, the pyramid
Speaker 1: as we are discovering in this conversation doesn't really accurately
Speaker 1: map out you know, needs and human psychology really because
Speaker 1: I mean not just because our brains aren't shaped like pyramids,
Speaker 1: but also because at any point in time we can
Speaker 1: be struggling multiple um sections and parts of the needs.
Speaker 1: So for example, we could all be breathing air and
Speaker 1: drinking water and having our food and stuff met right now. Um,
Speaker 1: And you know, you might be like really respected and
Speaker 1: stuff in your field. Um, and you might have a
Speaker 1: certain could sense of self esteem and stuff. But then
Speaker 1: at the same time, you know you're not in a
Speaker 1: safe place, or you may be dealing with like a
Speaker 1: debilitating health condition, or you maybe lack in certain resources
Speaker 1: that you need to like thrive right so and then
Speaker 1: or maybe you know you have here food, water, shelter, sleep,
Speaker 1: all that, and you know you're secure and you have
Speaker 1: what you need and whatever, but you have no friends.
Speaker 1: You know, you have no intimacy, no family sense a
Speaker 1: connection with other people. So you're kind of like living
Speaker 1: in this bubble, just floating through life, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: your bubble is say, if it has what you need,
Speaker 1: But there's now that social aspect, and I think What's
Speaker 1: interesting about this is because as we start to talk
Speaker 1: about maths, this hierarchy of needs, we start to see
Speaker 1: the structural and societal um impact on you know, our
Speaker 1: psychology and on our needs. Right, because if you want
Speaker 1: to talk about our safety needs, for example, well let's
Speaker 1: get to stay to the to the bottom, to the basic.
Speaker 1: If you want to talk about physiological needs, water is
Speaker 1: now a package and commodified product. Right. Food is something
Speaker 1: that is inaccessible to many, not because we don't have
Speaker 1: enough food, but because the distribution of it to meet
Speaker 1: the needs of all. It's not what's prioritized on the
Speaker 1: capitalism right there, as at people who are lacking in shelter,
Speaker 1: you know, um, and a lot of people are sleep
Speaker 1: deprived by the systems we're living in, ye hmm. And
Speaker 1: the same thing with safety. You know, we have faced
Speaker 1: literally threatened by climate change, and you know, we are
Speaker 1: atomized from our relationships and stuff because so much of
Speaker 1: so many of us have to work so hard, you know,
Speaker 1: every day, five days a week or more, eight hours
Speaker 1: or more, pretty and it really just strips us of
Speaker 1: our social connections. And that's our st needs were sort
Speaker 1: of stripped of that by you know, these commercial messages
Speaker 1: that we get about like you're not this unless you
Speaker 1: have this, and bye bye bye kind of thing, right,
Speaker 1: and in self actualization isn't even really a thought for
Speaker 1: a lot of people because they's still busy trying to
Speaker 1: reach those other things um or don't even have the
Speaker 1: time to think about or they can become who they
Speaker 1: are um and we get intoide a bit more later
Speaker 1: on in this discussion, but they don't really have the
Speaker 1: time of the sense to think about that because they've
Speaker 1: been so restricted by their circumstances, right and on top
Speaker 1: of that, restricted by like the messages that they would
Speaker 1: have gotten, you know, whether it be in the school
Speaker 1: system or through ads or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1: So I think looking at the pyramid, of course it's
Speaker 1: incomplete and the issues with it, but it does illuminate
Speaker 1: some interesting things that you know, we're dealing with right now.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I definitely it's easier to self actualized
Speaker 1: and have esteem once your needs are met. But I
Speaker 1: think definitely there's an ability to jump around, especially when
Speaker 1: you know you have like a large scale depression and
Speaker 1: alienation and disassociation. Think it is it's a weird sense
Speaker 1: where you can kind of hop around pyramid quite quite often.
Speaker 1: Even if you have certain things met, this doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean you have something you know above or below. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like I I I when it comes to like actual
Speaker 1: people that I associate with, you know, all of whom
Speaker 1: are folks who have to, like I have to work
Speaker 1: in order to live. I don't think I've ever heard
Speaker 1: anyone talk about happiness in terms of like self actualization.
Speaker 1: It's always in terms of like when I get my
Speaker 1: student loans paid off, you know, when I get my
Speaker 1: when I'm able to take care of this health problem
Speaker 1: that I have, like when I have enough money. It's
Speaker 1: basically everything boils down to for most people, when I
Speaker 1: have enough money to not be as suffering as much
Speaker 1: from this specific thing, or to not be scared about
Speaker 1: not having enough money. Um, which is I think more
Speaker 1: would I get from people when they're talking about like
Speaker 1: aspirational goals than I would like to do this thing
Speaker 1: that that fulfills me as a person. Um Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: It's like like any any kind of actual self actualization
Speaker 1: becomes this not just a luxury, but a luxury that's
Speaker 1: just unimaginable. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Some people can't even imagine,
Speaker 1: I know people who have just basically given up on
Speaker 1: like ever being able to repay their loans, right, Like
Speaker 1: they've just resigned themselves like this is my life now
Speaker 1: for all eternity, this is this is it, you know,
Speaker 1: And I can't blame them. Who can really blame them
Speaker 1: when that is the reality, you know for a lot
Speaker 1: of people taking themselves out to that is not possible
Speaker 1: even if they did get a whole bunch of the
Speaker 1: money or able to like pay off a bit more
Speaker 1: PU month, you know, this left interest rates. They're just
Speaker 1: like so badly exploitative that they're basically suits for the
Speaker 1: rest of lives. Of course, we had to have that
Speaker 1: brief moment of damn, the system sucks, as is typical
Speaker 1: on it could happen here. But I want to shift
Speaker 1: attention now to another society and another culture that has
Speaker 1: approached this human needs and human psychology and human society
Speaker 1: thing differently. Right, Um, what's been coming to a lot
Speaker 1: more people's attention lateally is that Abraham Maslow Um he
Speaker 1: was actually partially inspired to develop his theory by his
Speaker 1: stay with the six Seeker Blackfoot, and I went into
Speaker 1: some of the details on the video on my channel.
Speaker 1: UM rethinking Maslow's hierarchy of needs psycho a bit more
Speaker 1: in there, but basically, um, what he discovers, what I
Speaker 1: get to in that video is that, well, firstly, some
Speaker 1: cultures views as being born self actualized, right, like these
Speaker 1: seek of Blackfoot meaning and that's the Blackfoot just for
Speaker 1: a little bit of context, or are an indigenous people.
Speaker 1: I think confederation is how they tend to refer to
Speaker 1: themselves in like Montana, I think Idaho. Um yeah, up
Speaker 1: in Canada. Yeah, I kind of like Idaho, Montana and
Speaker 1: parts of Canada, um like that's that's Blackfoot territory. They
Speaker 1: were also Maslow spent time with them. L Run Hubbard
Speaker 1: lied about having spent a lot of time with the Blackfoot.
Speaker 1: So I didn't know that. I don't. Oh yes, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of scientology law if you have to catch
Speaker 1: up one yeah, but um yeah. So you know, with
Speaker 1: Maslow's model, self auctionalization is essentially you know, self fulfillment, right,
Speaker 1: the tendency for the individual to become more and more
Speaker 1: what one is and to become everything that one is
Speaker 1: capable of becoming. So I like fulfilling your potential as
Speaker 1: a person, as a partner, as a parent, as a talent,
Speaker 1: as a artist, as a whatever, just fulfilling your potential
Speaker 1: as a person. Right. But to say that we are
Speaker 1: born self actualized, um, that framing will looks too seeing
Speaker 1: us each as born in the world with a spark
Speaker 1: of divinity, because of course this is tied into their spirituality. Um,
Speaker 1: born for the spark of divinity and with a great
Speaker 1: purpose embedded in us. And what self actualization is linked
Speaker 1: to in these cultures inextricably linked to that is is
Speaker 1: community actualization. Right. So community actualization is a concept that
Speaker 1: places the actualized individual in the context of community. So
Speaker 1: instead of just upholding the individual alone, which Maslow's hierarchy
Speaker 1: has been critiqued for sort of doing, community actualization incorporates
Speaker 1: the web of relationships that supports each of us as individuals. Basically,
Speaker 1: it recognizes that we cannot be self actualized solely as
Speaker 1: individuals if there's not like a broader network over at,
Speaker 1: a web that is supports us. You know, we're not
Speaker 1: islands standing alone, you know, yeah, yeah, we were. We were.
Speaker 1: We were touching on on on that point a bit
Speaker 1: a bit previous, but less eloquently. Um, how yeah, it is,
Speaker 1: it is. It's it's it's much easier to have the
Speaker 1: ability to actualize your goals into into actions when you
Speaker 1: are less alienated and you have and you have all
Speaker 1: these other things around around a community. Yeah, exactly. It
Speaker 1: is that. I think, like the lack of community self
Speaker 1: actualization is kind of what we were talking about in
Speaker 1: terms of like, yeah, things are seeing things are great
Speaker 1: for me inasmuch as things are great, you know in
Speaker 1: the system we live in, but I I don't feel that,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, you can look outside and you're everything
Speaker 1: is actually really bad. I'm just kind of in my
Speaker 1: little bubble and I'm trying to expand my bubble to
Speaker 1: be around, you know, and to help more people. But
Speaker 1: it can be overwhelming sometimes. Yeah, I mean, it's only
Speaker 1: so much one person could do. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: the hoole point of community, right Our community supports our
Speaker 1: basic needs and basically equips us to manifest our poopous
Speaker 1: So it's a community would be there too, for example,
Speaker 1: and we can get into this a bit more designer
Speaker 1: model of education that supports us in expressing all unique gifts.
Speaker 1: Right now, the part of the six scot philosophy involves
Speaker 1: cultural perpetuity, where there's an important consideration of those who
Speaker 1: came before and those who are coming after seven generations
Speaker 1: forward and seven generations backward. As I had it explain
Speaker 1: to me too, that is something that I think it
Speaker 1: would have been useful when it came to discussions of,
Speaker 1: um you, climate change. And it's very relevant now because
Speaker 1: we are seeing the older generations basically struggling and being like,
Speaker 1: you know, um well it's jen Z's problem. Now you
Speaker 1: could take care of it. You're in the future kids,
Speaker 1: all right, well that yeah, when they're basically on the
Speaker 1: download saying fuck them kids. You know, yeah, but can
Speaker 1: I say that or yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can
Speaker 1: always say the kids. I say that to Garrison all
Speaker 1: the time without all right yeah yeah. But speaking of kids, um,
Speaker 1: I think we could compare and contrast basically how childhood
Speaker 1: is approached in our society versus how it would be
Speaker 1: approached in society that values community actualization. UM. I mean,
Speaker 1: and I'm just speaking from my experience here. Of course
Speaker 1: you're a free talk about your own um I from
Speaker 1: like primary school and stuff. I remember it's constantly feeling
Speaker 1: like I had to compete with my fellow um classmates.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I was friendly and stuff with
Speaker 1: everybody and stuff, but since I was like usually at
Speaker 1: or close to the top of my class, I always
Speaker 1: felt this kind of pressure to just beat them out
Speaker 1: and continue to be the best gifted kid ever. You know.
Speaker 1: So there was a sense of like constant competition with
Speaker 1: others that wasn't really balanced out with a kind of
Speaker 1: um collaborative sort of approach to like basically trading us
Speaker 1: from like an early age to learn to cooperate and
Speaker 1: work with people as people and as comrades, you know,
Speaker 1: although comrade is a way way to put it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I just remember there was a sort of sense of
Speaker 1: sort of atomization that's undercooded. That's sorts of educational approach.
Speaker 1: I I feel like that's pretty uh universal in a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of parts of our modern world.
Speaker 1: We definitely really embed that sense of competition into very
Speaker 1: young kids, of whether that being in school or like wherever.
Speaker 1: Because yeah, that was that was definitely my experience, even
Speaker 1: even like in private school in Canada a long time ago.
Speaker 1: And I know that's that's the thing across you know,
Speaker 1: across out the ocean as well. On on the other
Speaker 1: side of the pond. Yeah, we are back. That doesn't
Speaker 1: sound like us are we are? We really back. Sorry,
Speaker 1: it's and a m um all right. So when we're
Speaker 1: to look at like childhood and education and stuff in
Speaker 1: society there would value community actualization. Um, what sort of
Speaker 1: things do you guys think who would be seeing in
Speaker 1: that sort of society. What sort of approaches do you
Speaker 1: think would be embedded from an early age. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to put it into words, so kind of one of
Speaker 1: the things I'm I'm currently in a living situation right
Speaker 1: where I have. I'm working with a group of people
Speaker 1: on a chunk of land and so every week we
Speaker 1: do projects on it to make it better, um, which
Speaker 1: is tremendously satisfying. And I think in a in a
Speaker 1: society where that kind of self actualization like you've been
Speaker 1: talking about was more common, kids would feel that way
Speaker 1: about doing things, um that improve their community like that,
Speaker 1: that that take care of the people around them, that
Speaker 1: make you know, wherever they live a better place to live,
Speaker 1: Like that would be. That would be in the same
Speaker 1: way that like I go out each weekend thinking that
Speaker 1: will be a fun thing to do to like to
Speaker 1: improve the place that I'm living. I think that would
Speaker 1: be kind of, um a common feeling like that would
Speaker 1: be a common activity as a kid to go engage
Speaker 1: in projects like that. Yeah, and I mean we already
Speaker 1: see children doing that, right except they do it in minecraft. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean like the impulse is being directed somewhere currently.
Speaker 1: This isn't a thing you have to This isn't a
Speaker 1: thing you have to like splice into kids little brains
Speaker 1: to make them want to do it. Kids love making
Speaker 1: ship exactly. Like if you give a child and opportunity
Speaker 1: and sort of facility that like, they a very a
Speaker 1: lot of them. I can't really generalize because I know
Speaker 1: some kids were like you do what you had to do.
Speaker 1: I want to see in my corner. But there a
Speaker 1: lot of kids as well who would be like very
Speaker 1: very willing to be helpful, you know, they really like
Speaker 1: they just a door being a helper and being someone
Speaker 1: who can support, whether it be in the kitchen, you know,
Speaker 1: with like a little broom or whatever, sweeping, whatever the
Speaker 1: case may be. So some my kids don't want to
Speaker 1: be parts of a community, you know, because we are
Speaker 1: social animals. Um, it's just that right now, it is
Speaker 1: directed at like Minecraft, supers or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think one of the things that I would really focus on,
Speaker 1: because this is just kind of in my experience, is
Speaker 1: teaching young kids how to cook, um and then having
Speaker 1: them cook or at least help cook food for other people.
Speaker 1: I think it's a really great kind of skill to learn.
Speaker 1: But also it it does this weird thing to your
Speaker 1: brain when you do that. It's like you you get
Speaker 1: very happy when you cook food for for other people.
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's a really good kind of
Speaker 1: emotional impulse to give kids. It's like, hey, this is
Speaker 1: you can make people feel good by doing things for them, um.
Speaker 1: And because that makes you feel good and it makes
Speaker 1: them feel good, and then that really builds that whole
Speaker 1: sense of community. So yeah, yeah, yeah, some kids could
Speaker 1: be a man like but like both self lessness, but
Speaker 1: it also teaches you to like do stuff for yourself
Speaker 1: as well. Right, It's a good skill to be self
Speaker 1: also be self sustaining. So I think that's that's why
Speaker 1: I really enjoy teaching kids cooking. Um. I used to
Speaker 1: I I used to be a culinary instructor because I'm
Speaker 1: really just passionate about that specific thing. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: for me perasonally, Um, I develop an aneurism whenever anyone's
Speaker 1: in the kitchen with me. Yes, there is definitely moments
Speaker 1: where if there's too many people in a kitchen, that
Speaker 1: is frustrating. But if if you do it right, you
Speaker 1: can get you can get a thirteen year old cooking
Speaker 1: you an entire like really really nice holiday dinner. Um,
Speaker 1: which is which is what I was when I was thirteen,
Speaker 1: I was cooking all of the holiday dinners for my
Speaker 1: entire family, um, because I just I wanted to learn cooking.
Speaker 1: So it's it's definitely possible if you're a parent and
Speaker 1: you want less time in the kitchen. Uh, teacher kid
Speaker 1: how to cook? Yeah, I mean I come from a
Speaker 1: family of child cooks, right. I remember, Um this one
Speaker 1: time I think I was making like a card cake
Speaker 1: with my mom. Um. But I was used to like
Speaker 1: licking my fingers when you know you make that cookie
Speaker 1: cookie dough and stuff. But I licked my fingers when
Speaker 1: the when I cracked the egg acts like stuff. You
Speaker 1: can't do that, you know. So I just remember that
Speaker 1: was one of the experiences in the kitchen. It really
Speaker 1: stood out to me. Lessons lessons will be learned about
Speaker 1: like bacteria. Yeah, you know, it'sience. Knives, you get to
Speaker 1: get to learn how to use knives, get to learn
Speaker 1: about heat. You know, there's a lot, a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of good lessons you can learn inside. I
Speaker 1: get firing safety, chemistry, you know, bunch of stuff well
Speaker 1: mixed in there. You know, even math, even absolutely fractions.
Speaker 1: It's one of the only times I use fractions is
Speaker 1: in cooking and baking. Yeah, I mean, as embarrassing as
Speaker 1: it is, I use Google when I want to confut
Speaker 1: measurements still, but I mean it's just there. It's more convenient.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I absolutely agree that example, you know, like
Speaker 1: the use of like cooking lessons and that sort of
Speaker 1: thing too. Support um to support like kids self actualization.
Speaker 1: I also the community actualization because of my experience, and
Speaker 1: the thing I default too is different versions of like
Speaker 1: the youth liberation argument. But because of how people have
Speaker 1: been using that term on Twitter right now, I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about it because it's been causing a
Speaker 1: lot of like really dumb fighting about what that term
Speaker 1: actually means and who coined it and like that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. But that's kind of where I default too,
Speaker 1: in terms of like what self actualization could be in
Speaker 1: a community setting. Youth liberation is one of those things
Speaker 1: that I'm really passionate about UM and I honestly don't
Speaker 1: know who coined it or what discourses happening about it
Speaker 1: right now, but it definitely informs my approach and ends
Speaker 1: up influencing like a lot of the things that I discuss,
Speaker 1: Like when if I talk about like an issue or
Speaker 1: whatever UM in society, a lot of times it really
Speaker 1: boils down or starts from an early age, it starts
Speaker 1: through the education system, or it's faster there or incubated there.
Speaker 1: So I think, UM, a lot more discussion should be
Speaker 1: happening about, you know, the place of young people and
Speaker 1: the education system and stuff UM, alongside of course all
Speaker 1: the other struggles and discussions and discourses about struggles we've
Speaker 1: been happen. Yeah, I'm just trying to view like anarchistic
Speaker 1: like liberatory frameworks is like trying to achieve that self
Speaker 1: actualization and to some degree like the the like a
Speaker 1: steam level, and then also like the community and belonging level. UM,
Speaker 1: even if you don't have all of your physical needs
Speaker 1: met all the time. Is how these types of frameworks
Speaker 1: can be can almost just like jump around that and
Speaker 1: be like, despite me not having all of these base
Speaker 1: needs met, if I if I have like a radical
Speaker 1: model of the world, I can still try to achieve
Speaker 1: that type of freedom because I can work outside the
Speaker 1: box to get it. Um. Yeah, and I think that
Speaker 1: that that's kind of what I was I was trying
Speaker 1: to get at is at least on you know, like
Speaker 1: a like a like whether it be like a youth
Speaker 1: lib framework or just see like general like radical anarchism
Speaker 1: in general. Yeah, And I mean parts of thinking outside
Speaker 1: the box involves, you know, looking at other people who
Speaker 1: of thought outside of the box, who have reinvented and
Speaker 1: reconsidered and sort of transformed their approach to things like
Speaker 1: education and child care and really all the aspects of
Speaker 1: society that we take for granted as you know, just
Speaker 1: being a certain way. You know, um, when we talk
Speaker 1: about things like education and childhood in the place that
Speaker 1: plays and community actualization, I seem to think a lot about,
Speaker 1: you know, all the things we can do to not
Speaker 1: fit into cap into capitalist smooths. You know, it's really
Speaker 1: facilitate folks potential, not just really cooking classes for example,
Speaker 1: but even through you know, workshops and field trips. I
Speaker 1: mean field trips. Now we're just kind of like this
Speaker 1: saying that you know, kids go to from time to
Speaker 1: time and they have to walk in a single fireline
Speaker 1: and all these different things. But what I envision when
Speaker 1: I think of, you know, learning, is something walk into
Speaker 1: like less restrict action to just the four walls of
Speaker 1: a classroom and more the whole world is your classroom.
Speaker 1: You know, the whole world is a place where you know,
Speaker 1: you can explore, and you can room and you can
Speaker 1: develop yourself. You know, without all these barriers and controls
Speaker 1: we place on kids end up suffocating their imagination of
Speaker 1: what things can be. And I mean when you have
Speaker 1: that sort of educational model where you know, the youth
Speaker 1: are able to explore different avenues and direct their own
Speaker 1: education routes, you know, you also end up which is
Speaker 1: what has happened in education models that we've seen throughout
Speaker 1: many different cultures of the world. You see that it
Speaker 1: facilitates relationships with the community members, right, and everybody benefits
Speaker 1: because you have for example, becausen't exactly something like apprenticeships,
Speaker 1: and you have you know, for example, people getting support
Speaker 1: from the kids in the kitchen or you know, in
Speaker 1: the workshop or in library or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1: And not only the kids about paying their skills, but
Speaker 1: they're also developing relationships with different members of the community
Speaker 1: with different backgrounds, with different experiences, and it released serves
Speaker 1: almost as I see it as a way to God
Speaker 1: against UM this sort of style of parenting where that
Speaker 1: we kind of seeing popularized lately, where like the child
Speaker 1: is basically the exclusive property of the parents and you
Speaker 1: can't tell anybody how to raise their child and the
Speaker 1: parent always knows best, and that kind of approach. I
Speaker 1: think it's a good and to do to that because
Speaker 1: the child being exposed to a lot more of life
Speaker 1: and of people. UM. I think that to me, UM
Speaker 1: is the sort of youth liberation route that I see developing.
Speaker 1: It requires, of course transmission, but you know, no proposalar
Speaker 1: to be approach and isolation. Yeah, and it's it's easier
Speaker 1: to achieve when you're around other right, It's it's easy
Speaker 1: to one if if you are already in a community
Speaker 1: where these things can be fostered, then it's a lot
Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot less of a lofty goal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that there's a kind of interesting I don't
Speaker 1: know if case studies the right word, but there's part
Speaker 1: of Italy that had a really really long running like
Speaker 1: anarchis education experiments, and so they're basically able to sort
Speaker 1: of refund local school systems and it worked. But you know,
Speaker 1: and they produced a bunch of really good schools, and
Speaker 1: you know, the schools are based in sort of like
Speaker 1: cooperative learning etcetera, etcetera. And you know, I mean the
Speaker 1: model still exists today, but and you know, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they made some of the best schools in Europe, but
Speaker 1: the society around them didn't change. And so sort of bizarrely,
Speaker 1: they ended up making these schools that like produced you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're very good schools. They produced extremely good students,
Speaker 1: but then they also like produced an extremely you know,
Speaker 1: well educated and good like capitalist contree basically. And so
Speaker 1: I think I think there's a sort of you know,
Speaker 1: if if you go back to sort of the community
Speaker 1: aspect of this is like, yeah, there's there's a set
Speaker 1: to which even even if you have you know, you
Speaker 1: get some form of self actualization, you get some form
Speaker 1: of sort of you know, community and cooperative like education
Speaker 1: for children and stuff like that. The whole society has
Speaker 1: to move with it or otherwise you just wind up
Speaker 1: sort of feeding the beast more effectively. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean that is that you you also see that kind
Speaker 1: of problem with like the we work guys, right, the
Speaker 1: Adam Newman and and and h the two co founders
Speaker 1: of that came out of Adam's case at kibbutz in Israel,
Speaker 1: which you know, started with from kind of socialist foundations,
Speaker 1: and the other founder had grown up in like a
Speaker 1: commune in rural or again. Uh, and they both wound
Speaker 1: up making like this ultra capitalist real estate company. So yeah,
Speaker 1: if you it's it's you know, there's a lot that's said,
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot of value and kind of
Speaker 1: like carving out sections of culture for the things you
Speaker 1: believe in to try to um get shelter from the storm.
Speaker 1: But yeah, as you were kind of noting, Chris, um,
Speaker 1: it does it does also just wind up kind of
Speaker 1: reinforcing the dominant social system. Um. If there's not a
Speaker 1: kind of more basic upheaval of the way things work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if there's no you know, political philosophy and your goodness
Speaker 1: and there's no connection with you know, broader social movements
Speaker 1: and sort of confederation with other projects. You know, it
Speaker 1: could very easily be coopted you know in isolation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess that's you know, like that. That's
Speaker 1: what happened to self actualization as a concept for the
Speaker 1: most part, is that it got taken over by kind
Speaker 1: of weird grifters and yeah, like self care, yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and take these concepts and just sort of twisted and
Speaker 1: transforming into um, you know, capitalists hands it's even something
Speaker 1: like um like with There's been some interesting discussions happening
Speaker 1: surrounding like luxury and what luxury means around sitting within
Speaker 1: certain circles on Twitter UM and Kim UM. Kimberly Foster
Speaker 1: from for Harriet Excellent YouTube channel UM. She mentioned that
Speaker 1: to who at least in this long but really good
Speaker 1: video she spoke about how luxurad to WHO is basically UM,
Speaker 1: you know, finding the ability to rest where you need
Speaker 1: to rest and to be able to be supported UM.
Speaker 1: Whereas luxury now but luxury as quite popular understanding, it
Speaker 1: is more so about consumption and consumerism. So even when
Speaker 1: you have something where like and this is specific to UM,
Speaker 1: the black experience of course, because for a long time.
Speaker 1: You know, black women have been expected to, like um,
Speaker 1: toil and labor and support not only the communities, but
Speaker 1: also you know, draineer slavery also you know, their white
Speaker 1: masters and that kind of thing. Um. There's there was
Speaker 1: a push for the Black Women Luxury movement to sort
Speaker 1: of reclaim you know, a space for black women to
Speaker 1: just be able to enjoy themselves and you know, be themselves.
Speaker 1: But that quickly became something it's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: just get the bag um, just the sort of hyper capitalists,
Speaker 1: hyper consumerist, bougie kind of approach to luxury, where the
Speaker 1: original route to the movement, which was about finding rest,
Speaker 1: was sort of lost. And I mean that's a bit
Speaker 1: of a tangent, so I'll try to connect that back
Speaker 1: to what we're saying. Um. I think when it comes
Speaker 1: to things like rest and the ability to rest, um,
Speaker 1: I think that that's can only really be found in community.
Speaker 1: And if there is a lack of communit community support
Speaker 1: to you know, pick up the slack when you need
Speaker 1: to rest and you need to revive yourself and you
Speaker 1: just need to recharge. Um. Barring that, of course, resheople
Speaker 1: can pay for a sort of a full community in
Speaker 1: a sense of having you know, nannies and maids and
Speaker 1: butlers and tutors and all these people to basically support
Speaker 1: their life styles and support there freedom. But well people
Speaker 1: lack that. And so I think actualization as you're mentioning, UM,
Speaker 1: it's ability to rest, and I see that as linked
Speaker 1: with community. Yeah, I think that definitely ties into our
Speaker 1: recent discussions on anti work and how anti work is
Speaker 1: a lot more feasible if you are in a community
Speaker 1: support like network and right, and you have people to
Speaker 1: rely on UM and definitely, like you know, self actualization
Speaker 1: as the ability to like to just rest when you
Speaker 1: want to, it's a very uh, it's very powerful thing
Speaker 1: and very enticing, and that definitely plays into the whole
Speaker 1: like anti work, like UM idea, I guess yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: so can I the anti work thing to just general
Speaker 1: you know, unonization and striking efforts? Right? Like I was
Speaker 1: seeing people are calling for a general strike the other day,
Speaker 1: um as if we haven't learned a lesson, But they
Speaker 1: were calling for that, but what they were not realizing
Speaker 1: was that without these structures in place to support striking efforts,
Speaker 1: it's not gonna be enough. You know, if people cannot
Speaker 1: support themselves and their families. The strike cannot last. You know,
Speaker 1: it's only with this community and the community coming together
Speaker 1: to support people can they you know, not just fight
Speaker 1: for the rights in the striking and unization context, but
Speaker 1: also you know, to be able to find leisure, to
Speaker 1: find rest, as with the anti work discussion, and so
Speaker 1: sort of turn this to a discussion on organizing more generally. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, we are, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: a very communal ape and if we were to just
Speaker 1: focus on ourselves as individuals, um, I think as capitalism,
Speaker 1: in its anti social nature expects us to, I think
Speaker 1: we would all suffer as a result. You know, our
Speaker 1: goal as people, as any one person, should be not
Speaker 1: just to you know, ourselves, but also to enrich the
Speaker 1: worlds of those around us and to cultivate the community
Speaker 1: that as we support, they you know, will support us.
Speaker 1: And I mean as we prefigure this sort of you know,
Speaker 1: culture of support, of you know, care and of empathy
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Um, I think organizing efforts
Speaker 1: would as a results be a lot more powerful, be
Speaker 1: a lot more potent um, be a lot more enriching,
Speaker 1: and a lot more imaginative. So unless any any of
Speaker 1: you have anything else to see, um, to sort of
Speaker 1: bring this to a close, Um, I just want to
Speaker 1: leave um, leave us with some food for thought in
Speaker 1: terms of how we can incorporate community actualization in action,
Speaker 1: right Because it's one thing to say I will be
Speaker 1: wonderful to have a community to support to you in
Speaker 1: account thing. But you know, um, how do people are
Speaker 1: pretty isolated and stuff right now? Um? So I guess
Speaker 1: I actually put it into sort of five stage kind
Speaker 1: of approach, starting with firstly facilitating collect to prolonging among
Speaker 1: diverse groups. Right, so we want to look at bringing
Speaker 1: people together. Obviously they would have different backgrounds and different needs,
Speaker 1: different ones, different personalities. But bring people together, um, whether
Speaker 1: it be at work or on the block, or at
Speaker 1: school or whatever the case. We just for a cook
Speaker 1: coote or for align or any kind of party or interaction. Obviously,
Speaker 1: depending on where you are that that may not be
Speaker 1: the safest thing to do, um, considering COVID and everything.
Speaker 1: But just bring people together. Not even necessary to proselytize
Speaker 1: them about anarchism or socialism or whatever. But at the
Speaker 1: very least start connecting the nodes and start connecting the
Speaker 1: different parts that can eventually come together to become something greater,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, you don't need to wait for
Speaker 1: a calamity. That's one thing to happen. But of course
Speaker 1: we have seen as well where natural disasters have broad
Speaker 1: communities together that wouldn't say it before. Um, I think, however,
Speaker 1: it would be better to like not wait for that
Speaker 1: kind of thing to happen and to just you know,
Speaker 1: bringing people together from now start some conversations, get things
Speaker 1: going right, and then from there you want to be
Speaker 1: facilitating solidarity in struggle. Right, So whether it be in
Speaker 1: the solidarity is a bit of a buzz would now
Speaker 1: or at least it become a buzz would. But I
Speaker 1: think whether it be with disasterly funds or solarity strikes
Speaker 1: and protests, or you know, with basic mutually support, you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's material or emotional solidarity in struggle, I think
Speaker 1: that is another crucial part in you know, building community
Speaker 1: and incorporating eventually community actualization, because what that does is
Speaker 1: it shows others that I have your back, and you know,
Speaker 1: others able to see that you know they can have
Speaker 1: mine as well. Um. It helps to build that sense
Speaker 1: of trust. You also want to sort of cultivated probably
Speaker 1: a sense of community pride and a sense of being
Speaker 1: able to rely on community networks. You know, we spoke
Speaker 1: about mutulate networks, but also things like UM skill shares
Speaker 1: or workshops, so UM material support. You know, if somebody
Speaker 1: needs food, being able to support for them, to know
Speaker 1: that they have people they can go to to support
Speaker 1: them in their time of need, that is powerful. You know.
Speaker 1: Not many people forget that. Not many people forget the
Speaker 1: time that they were at their most dire point and
Speaker 1: you know the community stepped up to support them. You know,
Speaker 1: if you want to see UH in direction in our lifetimes, UM,
Speaker 1: you don't start guns blazing. You know, you start with
Speaker 1: a creative food, You start with a help in hand,
Speaker 1: You start with money if people need it UM and
Speaker 1: then from there, you know, you get into the realm
Speaker 1: of community achievements where your community is collectively able to
Speaker 1: celebrate the things that we have accomplished together. You know,
Speaker 1: whether it be establishing community garden that is able to
Speaker 1: supplement people's UM fresh protry supply, or whether it be
Speaker 1: that you know, community has come together and they've fixed
Speaker 1: something that was broken on the street, or even that
Speaker 1: they've come together and we're able to train people with
Speaker 1: like some really helpful skills where they're now able to
Speaker 1: support themselves and bring other things to team as well.
Speaker 1: And then from there, I think that sorts of approach
Speaker 1: would foster fulfillment in community and the figures means the actualization. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and this is this is all. It's a
Speaker 1: big topic. Um. And it's a much bigger topic than
Speaker 1: just like what a what do you what changes do
Speaker 1: you want to make around the edges, like what things
Speaker 1: should people advocate for or even just like advocating that
Speaker 1: that the system be torn down, like as as was
Speaker 1: kind of evident when you asked, how could we build
Speaker 1: a community in which like kids feel more self actualization
Speaker 1: from engaging in the community. Um, And there was that
Speaker 1: kind of blank moment, the when you actually talking talk
Speaker 1: about like reconfiguring society at such a fundamental level. Um.
Speaker 1: It's it's a big topic. UM. And it's it's one
Speaker 1: that I think it's important to introduce to people the
Speaker 1: idea like and we really have to be we really
Speaker 1: got to figure this this out. This is this is
Speaker 1: important to like everything we we say we believe. UM.
Speaker 1: Answering this question is going to be key, Uh, and
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a tough one. UM. So I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes uh people come into episodes we do
Speaker 1: on stuff like this like looking for Okay, well, how
Speaker 1: how are you what's your suggestion for how to do that?
Speaker 1: And at the moment, like I agree with the how
Speaker 1: imperative this is, um, but in terms of actionable stuff, it's, um,
Speaker 1: this is a big open ended question in my head.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think Andrew laid out a
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff that we've we've talked about both
Speaker 1: like you know, with within our kind of own community
Speaker 1: groups in terms of the things in terms of like
Speaker 1: you know, like connecting nodes and all like the steps
Speaker 1: that we can do to have there be like more
Speaker 1: like more connecting branches of the tree and how to
Speaker 1: strengthen those. I think that it's it's a good Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like we can't we don't know what your community
Speaker 1: is like or what your what your situation is. All
Speaker 1: we can really say is here's the broad things that
Speaker 1: that you can try or have worked for other people
Speaker 1: in the past, and then based on what your situation is,
Speaker 1: you can can apply those pluglables. Yeah, st Andrew, Yes,
Speaker 1: of course, Um, well, you can follow me on Twitter
Speaker 1: at a discore scene. True and of course on YouTube
Speaker 1: seeming andreids. Um check my stuff. You know, I have
Speaker 1: the video on rethinking masters hierarchy of needs, um on
Speaker 1: some other on practice see things as well. Check it out,
Speaker 1: check it out, um and uh uh stay thinking about stuff.
Speaker 1: It's yeah. Thinking it's good. Yeah, thinking is good. It
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