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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing.

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Speaker 1: When I was coming up in the acting profession, there

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Speaker 1: were two teachers you had to take classes from. Milton

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Speaker 1: could sell Us in Los Angeles and Win Handman in

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Speaker 1: New York. I studied with both, and both contributed to

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Speaker 1: my technique. But Handman also influenced my approach to life

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Speaker 1: and to my co workers on screen and on stage.

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Speaker 1: His goodness, kindness, and generosity shown through in a professional

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Speaker 1: world too often characterized by cutthroat competition and one upmanship.

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Speaker 1: Over the years, an astonishing array of talent passed through

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Speaker 1: Handman's studio. Christopher Walken, Raoul, Julia Richard, gere Anna Davie Smith,

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Speaker 1: Joanne Woodward, Mia Farrow, and on and on. But after

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Speaker 1: seventy years, yes seventy, enrollment is finally closed. In April,

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Speaker 1: Hammon became one of New York's victims lost to COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 1: I was finally able to get him to record an

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Speaker 1: interview for Here's the Thing in two thousand eighteen, and

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Speaker 1: I'm bringing you our conversation today. I witnessed as when

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Speaker 1: made real progress with some marginally talented actors. But He

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Speaker 1: remained humble about what teachers can do. If they don't

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Speaker 1: have the right stuff inside them, I can't do it.

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Speaker 1: That's the basic thing they need. Yeah, the basic thing

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Speaker 1: is act as a highly suggestible people. If I suggest

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Speaker 1: something to you, you'll go with it. We're too gullible

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Speaker 1: for everyday of life. So one of the things they

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Speaker 1: have to draw upon is the ability to be suggestible,

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Speaker 1: because what is it You're suggesting something to yourself, so

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Speaker 1: you inhabit the reality in an imaginary situation. And if

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Speaker 1: you can do that, then you can take people on

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Speaker 1: the journey. I have recently noted people I took who

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Speaker 1: had no background and not that much going and now

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Speaker 1: they're doing Shakespeare and the Greeks, and said, hey, that's good.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I recently said to one, I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been congratulating myself because where I've taken you in

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Speaker 1: your acting. Yes, the tremendous improvements can be made. What's

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Speaker 1: interesting to me when I'm with my children, you see

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Speaker 1: the actor's nature they want to believe. See that's what

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Speaker 1: Sandy minds. Uh. Well, way back, Sandy was my mentor,

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Speaker 1: and uh, he would say, it's like when you play

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Speaker 1: Cops and Robbers, or when you played house when you

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Speaker 1: were a kid. Get that back, that not eve innocence

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Speaker 1: of believing. Where did you meet meister and tell people

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Speaker 1: who Meisner was? Then he was a member of the

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Speaker 1: Group Theater, and the Group Theater embraced the Santarslawski system

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Speaker 1: and they they trained with that. But Sandy was best

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Speaker 1: known for teaching at the Neighborhood play Out School of

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Speaker 1: the Theater, and he had been teaching there maybe from

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Speaker 1: the late thirties. Uh. I got to him in forties

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Speaker 1: six as a returning g I. I had been in

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Speaker 1: the service four years, so I had the wonderful g.

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Speaker 1: I Bill. I wanted to say, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: best things that America produced, was the G. I Bill.

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Speaker 1: I went there under the G. I Bill, and uh

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Speaker 1: when I got there, I had no experience whatsoever and

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Speaker 1: only seen a few plays. You discovered the theater yourself

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Speaker 1: in Boston when you came home from the war. I

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Speaker 1: saw Paul Robeson in a fellow with Uda Hogan and

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Speaker 1: Jose Ferrare. I was just on leave and there wasn't

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Speaker 1: maybe about the fourth play I had seen in my life.

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Speaker 1: When I was in the service. I was there for

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Speaker 1: four years. I had been a jazz musician, but I

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Speaker 1: realized I was a yeah, second rate. I wouldn't have that.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't going to make that my profession. And I

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Speaker 1: absolutely did not know what to do. And I was

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Speaker 1: on the ship waiting for it d be decommissioned. Then

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Speaker 1: I faced the reality that I should have a future.

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Speaker 1: What am I going to do? And I decided to

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Speaker 1: try acting. I had never acted. I had nice experience,

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Speaker 1: but whose idea was that mine? Because I had good experiences,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't do many things that my father felt

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Speaker 1: I did well. But when I did you my talka

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Speaker 1: Jean in po when you're courted safe out here and

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Speaker 1: you sent to penny fights and old de shot it,

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Speaker 1: then you'll do your work on etcetera, or the face on.

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Speaker 1: When I did those poems for him, he liked it

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Speaker 1: a lot, and so was your first audience. And I

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Speaker 1: got a good, good response. What your dad do? He

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Speaker 1: had a printing business. Yeah, I lived on a dirt

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Speaker 1: road in an apartment house, you know Wherefore a Triumph

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Speaker 1: Parks was right across the street from what became for

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Speaker 1: a Triumph Park. But when I was a child, it

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Speaker 1: was woods and we had a dirt road and was

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Speaker 1: a farm across the way, a farm with chickens and

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things. When the depression came along, the

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Speaker 1: farm left. The dirt road got paved and it became

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Speaker 1: a miniature golf course. And I was a caddy and

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Speaker 1: a minute ago I kept the score. But anyway, when

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Speaker 1: I was on a ship was North Atlanta anti submarine duty,

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Speaker 1: escorting convoys up to northeast Greenland. Uh, you are spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time in the ward room with your shipmates.

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Speaker 1: They play cards, things to do while you're not on watch.

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Speaker 1: And we had some records on the ship that were

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Speaker 1: of minologists. In those days, they were called Yes. The

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Speaker 1: people performed at nightclubs and there's usually a little body,

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Speaker 1: and there was one that I was particularly attracted to.

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Speaker 1: His name was Dwight Fisk and Uh he had been

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Speaker 1: performing at the Monkey Bar at the hotel what Hotel

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Speaker 1: Elisa when Tennessee Williams died. Anyway, I uh memorized the monologues.

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Speaker 1: I listened to the records and I did him from

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Speaker 1: my shipmates and they liked it. And you like getting laughs.

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Speaker 1: And this is a short when you win the military.

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Speaker 1: When you win, when you win the you win the

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Speaker 1: Are you in the navy? Well it was the coast Guard,

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Speaker 1: So you're there and with the guys there during the war,

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Speaker 1: you're cracking them up and entertaining that what kind of

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Speaker 1: material did Fisk do? Body's songs? Here's a one line

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Speaker 1: from it an outstepped Mr petty Bone just as naked

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Speaker 1: as a child and twice as cocky. You would have

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Speaker 1: liked to have done that monologue. Anyway. That encouraged me.

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Speaker 1: So when I was waiting to get out they could

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Speaker 1: be turned to civilian life, I said, well, what I

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Speaker 1: enjoyed was when my shipmates and they enjoyed my doing

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Speaker 1: those monologues. And when my father like that when I

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Speaker 1: did Gunga, then oh I don't I try acting. That's

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Speaker 1: the only thing. How did it go? You tried it?

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Speaker 1: And what happened? I went to the I Luckily I

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Speaker 1: didn't know. I didn't know one school, I didn't know anything.

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Speaker 1: There was a guy on the ship with me who

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Speaker 1: seems to fistic catered And while we were waiting for

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Speaker 1: the ship to be decommissioned in Norfolk, Virginia, and I

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Speaker 1: said to him, I said, I want to try acting.

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Speaker 1: When I get out, I have the g I bill

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Speaker 1: I can go to school. He said, well, there's only

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Speaker 1: one school to go to, and I said, what's that.

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Speaker 1: He said, the American Academy and Dramatic Arts. So as

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Speaker 1: soon as I got out in May forty six, I

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Speaker 1: went to the American Academy. You know where it was.

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Speaker 1: He had two flaws on the top of Carnegie Hall

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Speaker 1: and uh. They said, we have too many returning gies.

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Speaker 1: You can't apply. I say, I can't even apply. No,

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Speaker 1: you do monologue. So I saw the pack of monologues

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Speaker 1: and I learned it, but they never let me do

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Speaker 1: my audition monologue. So I was disconsolate because I didn't

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Speaker 1: know of any other school for the American Academy. No,

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Speaker 1: where'd you go? Then? Well, I was dating a Whiman,

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Speaker 1: I believe her name was Doris Well. I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can't. I can't even apply at the American Academy.

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Speaker 1: I want to try acting. She said, we'll go try

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Speaker 1: the Neighborhood Playouts. I hear, that's the best school, and

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Speaker 1: that's the first acting school you attended, the first and only.

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Speaker 1: And what happened was Sandy you know interviewed me and

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Speaker 1: took me. I think he took me because I talked

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Speaker 1: about improvisation, because I did it as a saxophonist. But

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Speaker 1: also I had written one poem when I was on

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Speaker 1: the ship waiting to get out, and he I think

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Speaker 1: that impressed them. Here's a short poem home now, feeling

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Speaker 1: the years of war spent youth, not time apart, nor

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Speaker 1: interlude furiously lived forgotten now like motion picture with yawning

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Speaker 1: exit two routine. I knew I didn't want the yawning

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Speaker 1: exit two routine, so I wanted to try I acting.

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Speaker 1: So I got into the playhouse. I immediately caught on.

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Speaker 1: How many people are in the program? When you're there,

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Speaker 1: you woke into a classroom. How many are there? It

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Speaker 1: is now there's a couple of maybe a couple of dozen.

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Speaker 1: And uh, inside of two weeks. Because Sandy saw I

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Speaker 1: was catching on, and a lot of them didn't to

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Speaker 1: what he was trying to get at. Uh, he said,

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Speaker 1: you work with her, you work with him. He had

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Speaker 1: no patience with them. I had such an affinity for

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Speaker 1: what was going on that it was the first time

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Speaker 1: in my life I felt this is what I can do,

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Speaker 1: which is to teach, teach direct, Yeah, work with acting.

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Speaker 1: You no longer want to be an actor. You want

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Speaker 1: to be an acting teacher. Does that happen quickly? Uh? No, No,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be an actor. And how much acting

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Speaker 1: did you do? Not that much? Because I moved it

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Speaker 1: into directing. Sandy. Sandy was like my guardian angel, very smart.

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Speaker 1: He latched onto me. I was assisting him at the

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Speaker 1: at the end of the first year, he was doing

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Speaker 1: a play called truck Line Cafe, which had been Yeah

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Speaker 1: brandam was successful on Broadway, and so that was the

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Speaker 1: second year classes graduation and there was an eight year

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Speaker 1: old child in it. He had no patience to work

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Speaker 1: with that eight year old child. He said, you work

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Speaker 1: with it. It turned out to be someone whose name

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Speaker 1: was Susan Pushett. Oh my goodness. Now when you're there, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you look back now, and you've been teaching for quite

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Speaker 1: a long time. Sandy started me in in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: of fifty. Okay, so you've been teaching for since the

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Speaker 1: stagecoach years without a stop. And so with that in mind,

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Speaker 1: can you look back now from your perspective and say,

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Speaker 1: what were Meisner's strengths and weaknesses as a teacher. Well,

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Speaker 1: he was enormously perceptive, uh, and could pick out what

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Speaker 1: you weren't doing and what kind of suggests what you

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Speaker 1: should be doing, and expressing it in ways that you

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Speaker 1: could hold on to, Like he'd say, uh, everything prepared

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Speaker 1: but the acting or as if um, you know a metaphors.

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Speaker 1: He had good ways of suggesting that his criticism sometime

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Speaker 1: could be cutting. He was direct to direct. Uh when

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Speaker 1: when he was gonna see I had been in a

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Speaker 1: naval officer and on a ship if it was gonna

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Speaker 1: ram and hit something, stand by for a ram. Sandy

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Speaker 1: would uh put his glasses on his forehead and I

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Speaker 1: would say, stand by for a ram. I'm gonna use that.

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Speaker 1: When he did that, it was bad because he didn't

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Speaker 1: something You don't get over that fast. Uh. And criticism

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Speaker 1: at that level, you see, it is a tremendous responsibility

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Speaker 1: to be an acting teacher because you can say one

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Speaker 1: thing I could damage someone for life. It's so By

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Speaker 1: the way, I want to interject from my listeners here,

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Speaker 1: I mean why I was so keen on doing this

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Speaker 1: with you was because that that nurturing and that kindness,

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Speaker 1: your reputation in New York when I first came here

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Speaker 1: was you were a very supportive and kind and nurturing teacher.

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Speaker 1: The late director and teaching legend when happen more coming up,

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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to. Here's the

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Speaker 1: thing when handman shares with his mentor Sanford Meisner, the

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Speaker 1: move away from so called effective memory. That's the method

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Speaker 1: acting staple of summoning one's own emotional experiences in order

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Speaker 1: to channel the characters trauma or joy. But Hammond's warm

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Speaker 1: embrace of his students stood in sharp contrast to the

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Speaker 1: man who first gave him his shot. Well, it's not

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Speaker 1: my nature to hurt people, and it's in my nature

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Speaker 1: to bring people along and know how vulnerable they are.

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Speaker 1: See when I be Sandy said you will, He said,

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Speaker 1: you will become my assistant, and you will have an

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Speaker 1: apprenticeship of humility. He said that that directly, and he

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Speaker 1: said you will watch every one of my class and

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Speaker 1: do your own. And I did that. So I saw

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Speaker 1: more Sandford Meisner classes than anyone because he ordered me

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Speaker 1: to do it. And I thank him for it because

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Speaker 1: I learned from it. But I could see where he

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Speaker 1: set people back because the tension, and I felt it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, why do you think he did that? Did

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Speaker 1: you believe that was in their interest? He had that nature.

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Speaker 1: He could be very mean. And so Meisner was known,

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Speaker 1: obviously in a very kind of a basic sense for

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Speaker 1: this repetition technique, the Meisnerian tank. Did you not see that, President, No,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't done. Then it wasn't He didn't do it

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Speaker 1: when And I know why he developed it because it

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Speaker 1: was a period of naturalism and you know, strong realism,

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Speaker 1: living off the other person. What the repetition does is

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Speaker 1: he it makes you go off the other person. Fuck you. Well,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know that kind of thing. But then

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Speaker 1: they became his whole system, this whole method, which is

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Speaker 1: absolutely ridiculous. Did you think that's true? That did become

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Speaker 1: his whole system. Aren't they teachers around who they teach Meisner?

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Speaker 1: And so what do you do? Well, what you do repetition?

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Speaker 1: How long can you do repetition? Maybe a week or something, No,

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Speaker 1: the whole semester. Well, I think it's for teachers who

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Speaker 1: don't have the chops to really teach, so they watch

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Speaker 1: these people go back and forth with their repetition. With

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Speaker 1: Sandy was everything to me. You know, he trained me,

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Speaker 1: and uh, he moved me right along. He could be

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Speaker 1: very tender. So when my first child, Laura was born,

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Speaker 1: he gave her a little thing from Tiffany, a pearl,

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Speaker 1: and every birthday he gave her another pearl. And I may,

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Speaker 1: I said, he's our godfather. And he got me so

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Speaker 1: out of directing because he there was up in the

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Speaker 1: at Irondack so was a was a leftist adult camp

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Speaker 1: lest it was very He said, you you should direct

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Speaker 1: that company. I was not married yet, but my wife

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Speaker 1: to be was a truly great woman. Anyway, I sat

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Speaker 1: on a bench with her up at Columbia University where

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Speaker 1: she was a Barnard said, Sandy wants me to direct im.

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Speaker 1: She says do it. Yeah. And when I said, Bobby,

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Speaker 1: that was so right for me. I had my own company.

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Speaker 1: I did play aff to play and Uh, I said,

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Speaker 1: I knew I was a director. Now what do you

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Speaker 1: think Lee's strength was? Uh? Were you critical with him? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of Leasia. His speaking gave me

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Speaker 1: a headache. He is an example. I had a student

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Speaker 1: who took his direct acting course and and he used

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Speaker 1: two of my students. One of them was Dallas from

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Speaker 1: North Carolina. And another woman from Jackson, Mississippi. They did

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Speaker 1: a scene and he was very critical. So he had

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Speaker 1: them do what he had his his emotion memory, and

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Speaker 1: they did it and then he was very pleased. But

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Speaker 1: she said to him, yeah, but Dallas was in North

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Speaker 1: Carolina and I was in Mississippi. He didn't transfer into saying, well,

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Speaker 1: whatever you're getting from that, now move it into you

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Speaker 1: are now. One of the things you learn in basic

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Speaker 1: acting and acting is doing because you have an intention,

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Speaker 1: a purpose because out of your want. Well, they they

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Speaker 1: got so preoccupied with physical things like itches and and

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Speaker 1: pains and behavior behavior that they us the intention and

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Speaker 1: that was no good. I was critical of that, but

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Speaker 1: he let that go. Well. There are people who do

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Speaker 1: scene work in classes that can that could be scene

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Speaker 1: work at the actor's studio, which isn't really scene work.

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Speaker 1: It's more like previous circumstances or prior circumstances. They do

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Speaker 1: a lot of different kind of exercises there. Uh for

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Speaker 1: those who don't know what I mean, do you take

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Speaker 1: a scene from uh Cataona hot Tin Roof and let's

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Speaker 1: go back and do the scene that happened a couple

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Speaker 1: of days before that. We make up and we improvise

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Speaker 1: what are known as the prior circumstances, and we improvise that.

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Speaker 1: But these exercises, which is really the bread and butter

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Speaker 1: of the studio, inhabiting the character. If you get in

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Speaker 1: the character, then the character does the work for you.

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Speaker 1: It's a difficult thing to do. Yeah, well that's training.

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Speaker 1: So I've developed something called the character interview. So if

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Speaker 1: you're working on the role, I say, well, before you

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Speaker 1: come back in, put down four questions you want to

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Speaker 1: be asked about yourself. Oh well, they make them up

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Speaker 1: for their own, but then I know what the Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know what the material is about. So then I

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Speaker 1: have my own questions in bon and I don't let

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Speaker 1: them do the scene, but I only get them improvising

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Speaker 1: in this character that we're developing. So then when they

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Speaker 1: get to the scene, the character is inside. People remember

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Speaker 1: it when it's inhabitant. When do things end with Meisner?

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Speaker 1: You're done with Meisner? You guys part ways? When and

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Speaker 1: then in between exactly what happened? Uh? He taught first

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Speaker 1: year was basic acting. Now, basic acting it's important, but

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Speaker 1: it got boring to me, and I was teaching more

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Speaker 1: basic acting causes than he was So when the new

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Speaker 1: season began and uh I saw the schedule, I said, hey,

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Speaker 1: I can't do this much basic acting anymore. It's like

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Speaker 1: mountains ahead of me. I just can't take it. So

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Speaker 1: he flew. He got very angry, and I got angry,

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Speaker 1: and uh I left. I had a certain independence which

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Speaker 1: he gave me because I am between fifty five. And

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Speaker 1: when you open American Place, what do you do? You

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Speaker 1: start teaching privately, no teaching classes. I was teaching four

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Speaker 1: classes each with twenty or more people. I had my

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Speaker 1: own studio what was it called? Just to win him

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Speaker 1: in studio? And when you started American Place theater, I

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Speaker 1: started in the early sixties sixty Why do you want

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Speaker 1: to start a theater? Because it wasn't enough for me

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Speaker 1: to teach. I was reaching I guess it was midlife crisis.

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Speaker 1: What am I going to do with my life? I'm

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Speaker 1: teaching very well and I like doing it, and I

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Speaker 1: can do it, But is there more I can be

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Speaker 1: doing well? What was in the era at the time

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Speaker 1: was not to just do Broadway kind of theater, but

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Speaker 1: to do others. So Bruce Stein had an article about

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Speaker 1: you know, Robert bruce Stein, the critic and Uh. There

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Speaker 1: was an article called the Plight of the Serious Play

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Speaker 1: which I saw in the New York Times, and uh

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Speaker 1: quotes from George Bernard Shaw, which I'll do one which

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Speaker 1: meant a lot to me, and I'd like to record it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You see, George Bernard Shaw was a theater critic in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties and he for three years, and when

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Speaker 1: he finished with that he started writing plays. But they

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Speaker 1: published all of his criticism in the collection Our Theater

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Speaker 1: in the nineties. He said this, more people went to

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Speaker 1: the theater in London when I was reviewing, then went

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Speaker 1: to church. This would be a very good thing if

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Speaker 1: the theater took itself seriously as a factory of thought,

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Speaker 1: an elucidator of social conduct, and armory against despair and dullness,

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Speaker 1: and the temple of the ascent of a man. Well,

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Speaker 1: I carried that around. I said, this is what I

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Speaker 1: have to fulfill. So it got me started looking for

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Speaker 1: plays that well. That He also, in one of his reviews,

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Speaker 1: said something very meaningful to me. He said, well, this

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Speaker 1: play is an entertainment, nothing wrong with that, not a

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Speaker 1: serious revelation of mankind to itself. That's what we're really about.

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Speaker 1: Give us two examples male female who came through your

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Speaker 1: doors who you just excited you. You knew they had it.

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Speaker 1: They went on to become great act Michael Douglas. He

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Speaker 1: said us me, if it was all right, if I

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Speaker 1: could call your mother and tell her how good you are.

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Speaker 1: I knew his mother, and yes he was. He was

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Speaker 1: very good. Right. A woman? What's an actress who came

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Speaker 1: through your doors? Alison? Janny, Alison Janny. Yeah, you just

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Speaker 1: give him a role and she can do it all.

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Speaker 1: And I should mention one you never heard of. Her

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Speaker 1: name is Mary Alice By, and I directed her in

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Speaker 1: a summer theater up in the Bosch Belt area in

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Speaker 1: the fifties and I just couldn't get over her talents

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Speaker 1: with one word, this actress. It was a summerstar play

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Speaker 1: four poster the Evolution of a marriage. And then there's

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Speaker 1: one sequence where the man has gone off and been

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Speaker 1: with another woman. Now he came back. She loved that man.

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Speaker 1: All she said was you and that you was still

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Speaker 1: with me. It just bounced off every wall of every

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Speaker 1: theater because she had so much going down here for

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Speaker 1: her love for this man. Mary Alice. Now I caught

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Speaker 1: Laurence Olivier at a performance of The Entertainer which was

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Speaker 1: on a Thursday, and David Merrick uh New York in

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Speaker 1: New York, and the word was out, well, he missed

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Speaker 1: his performer. He wasn't as good as he had been

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Speaker 1: in England on the opening night on Wednesday. Well, Mary

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Speaker 1: wanted to gate eight performances in so he had a

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Speaker 1: Thursday matinee and he had a phil of theater, so

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Speaker 1: it was all actors. And when Olivier walked on stage,

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Speaker 1: they applauded and uh and greeted him. And from that

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Speaker 1: entrance on he was so in that character. He's never

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Speaker 1: been in a character like that. That was absolutely memorable.

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Speaker 1: Not just one moment, but memorable. But there are moments

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Speaker 1: like when I saw the original street Car, when when

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Speaker 1: Malan was hearing the sisters talk about how an animal,

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Speaker 1: Blanche would saying he's an animal. Don't hold back with

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Speaker 1: the apes. He was out there listening. You got so

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Speaker 1: much from him that you see. It's still in the air.

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Speaker 1: Pig pollock, disgusting, vulgar boards on your lips and your

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Speaker 1: sisters too much around here. Remember what you long said,

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Speaker 1: every man is a king and I am the king.

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Speaker 1: Around even you and I snashed my hand. I go backstage.

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Speaker 1: All my knuckle was all bleeding, but I didn't give

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Speaker 1: a ship that was so happy. I remember how good

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Speaker 1: you were your class. I always remember because you were

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Speaker 1: so encouraging. I mean, but we got into it. You

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Speaker 1: mean that freedom to who just explore each other emotionally,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that love you know, which you just

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Speaker 1: can't fake on stage. When I teach. Now, I say

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Speaker 1: do yourself a favor. I say, really luxuriate in this now,

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Speaker 1: this process, because when you get older and you go

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Speaker 1: to work, it's all Arthur Murray, It's all steps on

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Speaker 1: the floor and dancing. Hurry. R had a we despair.

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Speaker 1: He told me the ground word there walking around words

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Speaker 1: told me to take it from there. You know something,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna end with that. We're gonna end with your

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Speaker 1: Arthur Murray song. Well, thank you, right, and you're very glad.

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Speaker 1: We met Win Handman, founder of the American Place Theater,

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Speaker 1: mentor to thousands, father to Laura and Liza, husband to

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Speaker 1: the late Bobby Handman, and a force for good in

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Speaker 1: the world of acting and beyond. Rest in peace. Win.

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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to here the

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Speaker 1: thing